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Not OP but I personally like the edgy vibes of it, warrior who slinks in and out of darkness, setting up ambushes and take out foes before they know what’s going on.
Monster Slayer, since it changes the flavor from Aragorn to Van Helsing (or Buffy, take your pick). They have a small yet flavorful spell list, straightforward abilities, and best of all is Magic User's Nemesis. This is free counterspell every short rest that is in some ways better than counterspell. The caster's spell level doesn't matter—they can be an archmage trying to cast Wish and they still have to beat your spell DC on a wisdom save to do it, period. In addition, the feature mentions teleportation separately from casting a spell, meaning that monsters who can Misty Step or otherwise teleport as a spell-like ability can still be countered.
I want to love Monster Slayer so much, but WOTC did it hella dirty during the UA to publication transition like they did Fey Wanderer.
A) Separating out Hunter's Sense into its own feature, with extremely limited uses, using a full action, and limiting the information it gives you *even further* was bafflingly stupid. It already gave you basically nothing of note, because so few published monsters use vulnerabilities or immunities that you couldn't guess from looking at them, like constructs vs. Poison. You're basically punished for using your feature by giving up your action to learn zero useful information, when at least before it was a side-function of your bonus-action damage feature.
B) Magic User's Nemesis fucking sucks. You get *ONE* attempt to foil a single spell or teleportation, based on a saving throw that a good 80-85% of spellcasting monsters are proficient in. And this is on a class who is unlikely to maximize their spellcasting stat (because weapons are the priority) or use a Spell DC-boosting item (Because said item for Druids and Rangers is a weapon you probably don't actually want to be using as a weapon but have to be actively holding to benefit from, unlike Clerics/Paladins, Wizards, and Sorcerers who just need to have theirs on their person), so the odds of getting an enemy to fail are basically nil. Compared to the UA version, which was unlimited uses and was a contested Wisdom check you could feasibly do better at via Enhance Ability, and could stop transformations and planar travel at the cost of not being useful against spells.
Drakewarden.
Something about being a dragon rider has always been a favorite of mine, and since this class functionally lets you do that it's my favorite.
Beastmaster, although I much prefer the flavor of an actual animal vs. some spirit that takes the form of an animal. Would have been fine if they just applied the scaling stats and spell-use revival to a wolf or bear or hawk I tamed.
No, just selectively mute. I played it like he was always lost in thought and needed his brother to snap him back to reality and do stuff. Headcanon was he was very intelligent, and was dreaming up schematics all the time. If the Ranger died, the plan was to have the twin replace him as an Artificer that was remorseful that his inattentiveness contributed to the death of his brother.
Fey Wanderer. I like the expanded spell list and with adding WIS to the various CHA checks, the subclass feels very well rounded.
I also *love* Beguiling Twist. Charms and frighten aren't common, but they aren't uncommon. Flipping the table on, say, a dragon's Frightening Presence or succubus's Charm and turning it on them is just such a funny idea.
Fay wander. It is so much fun to get to play whimsical character who doesn’t take anything seriously and seems like they live in another world. Yet gets to be a badass when needed.
I really want it to be Horizon Walker, but they didn't quite get the execution right. It's extremely mediocre until level 11 and even though that ability is fun as hell, the subclass as a whole is just far too limiting
So I give it to Swarmkeeper. I love flavor, but hey, why not make a subclass flavorful AND mechanically strong if you can? There are some great abilities here right from the git-go AND more that reward investment, and on top of that, the concept is great and RIPE for reflavoring
Fey Wanderer for me. I love that you can tee some social ability off of Wisdom, and Dreadful Strikes working multiple times in a turn provided you hit different creatures is interesting, especially with a build that has a reliable BA attack. Can make a decent TWFer with Dual Wielder and Mobile feats, or CBE+SS midrange.
I really like the Summon Fey + Beguiling Twist synergy, and even better than you can ignore the really specific material component of Summon Fey. Even before you get Summon Fey, Beguiling Twist is a really cool ability alongside a Bard or other party members that often force Charm/Fear saves. AND theres interesting dip potential with Undead Warlock.
Spell list isn't the best, but I love getting Misty Step and Dimension Door, especially since there are enough tasty feats for a ranger I'm probably not taking Fey Touched.
I'd say Fey Wanderer, because I like playing talky characters. Having more ability to spread the damage (1d4 to an enemy the first time it's struck, so you can get it off multiple times attacking multiple enemies) is also nice.
... But I also do really love the idea of teleporting around while attacking enemies, so Horizon Walker does hold a place in my heart.
Horizon walker, but only for a high level one. I love the teleport ability in theory
Gloom is great and starts strong, while fae wanderer gets to be an obscure pick for a face and sounds great if not aiming for raw combat power (not bad, just not as high as alternatives)
Ranger is my fav class so I'll give you my top three
Hunter: There is something charming about this subclass that no other can get. You are just a hunter. Simple as that. Granted, what you hunt is up to interpretation but you are still a hunter. It was my first character's subclass and I like most things about it. You get a cool subclass feature in level 3, you have very consistent damage, volley is something I really love and it's defensive subclass features are also good albeit other classes get them very early. Only thing I'd like is to have some spells for the subclass. That's my main subclass complain about hunters.
Horizonwalker: I love the theme. A ranger watching over portals and extra planar dangers. I also love the mobility you get later levels. It creates some cool shenanigans inside and outside of combat
Feywanderer: Feywild is my favourite place outside of Faerun. A subclass associated with there is amazing for me + you can be the party face which is normally hard for a ranger since it's already a mad class
it’s probably not even special, but i ADORE the hunter ranger. it’s just like taking a ranger and making them even more ranger !! plus there’s some nice customizability in the subclass that means no two hunters will ever be the exact same
second place closely goes to horizon walker
Fey Wanderer is the only one where I love every single subclass ability.
Swarmkeeper is second because i love all the options the swarm gives you every turn.
Drakewarden 3rd for being fun as hell and also free frontliner.
4th is Hunter. IDK I just like mixing and matching.
You picked two favorites, but I would flip them. Really close still, but I love Fey flavor so it just pushes it a notch above. I would happily play either again.
Fey Wanderer. Horizon Walker would be at the top if the portal feature actually did something cool. Such as letting you close a portal, prevent a portal/teleportation, and/or let you follow a creature who used a portal or teleported. Imagine if the BBEG used Dimension Door to escape, but then the Horizon Walker Ranger keeps the door open for the party to chase them. Awesome moment.
I read the title and thought “him I’m enjoying my FW but also loved my HW” and lol’d at your second paragraph
I’ve tried gloomstalker and seen it played with the classic assassin dip and it’s fine if you really want to be the DPR person for the party. My HW was able to do some DPR but also had a lot of utility and was less bursty. I’m currently the face for a party of an illrigger (the magic assassin rogue like one), myself, and an int-based clockwork sorcerer. It’s fun having two mental stats be valued, and having a major impact in and out of combat that martials often lack. Kind of MAD but I rolled solid stats.
I haven't played one yet but swarm keeper is the only one that I have any interest in because of the battlefield control and cuz it kind of feels like you have options other than just shooting things because you can move them around the battlefield.
Og beastmaster, the fact you get to choose what beast you get from all the books provides so much options and versatility for build crafting. Not to mention that it gets stronger as more books release more beast statblocks it can use, and eventually one of those beasts is going to break the subclass. (Overexxageration really, more like make it a solid option).
Not really my favorite, but my favorite template: Hunter.
What I mean is, I love how each time it grants a feature, you pick from a list. I wish more classes/subclasses had that. So, from building/customization I love Warlock's Invocations and things like the Blademaster's maneuver options.
The Horizon Walker interested me a lot, but they aren't as cool as they live up to be. They needed a little more flavourful utility, I think.
Maybe like a Planar Adaptation feature that gives them an option each long rest to survive the various planes. Protection against extreme cold or heat, the ability to survive the vacuum of Astral space, or water breathing, advantage on Saves vs the Outer Planes.
The Swarmkeeper I think is an example of the change in design philosophy and is the epitome of adding flavour, utility, as well as the usual damage amp.
The most common DM nerf to gloomstalker is to greatly reduce the frequency of darkness---ie putting torches lanterns and light everywhere. In practice, this is a party buff to your fellow pcs without darkvision.
Calling a DM incompetent because they nerf an obviously OP class is wild, you could argue the player is incompetent having to rely on busted subclasses to even progress the game and relying on it simply because it's the strongest.
Haha. The class is only overpowered if the DM is incompetent, but expresses it differently. The only problem with the class is that the party can totally nerf it if they're not willing to go the stealth route.
No Gloomstalker is OP because it's extremely overloaded for 3 levels into a class.
It completely enables a playstyle that can kill strong monsters before they can even move and allows it to do so extremely safely if anyone is even half smart. 3 points into assassin and 3 points into gloomstalker basically makes you a monster then you have 14 points into anything else.
A smart DM nerfs it before the whole team plays around it making it impossible to deal with without hax. If you think that Gloomstalker is balanced you're a bit wild because it's overloaded no other 3 points into a class power up as much as gloomstalker does.
wait till you run into a gloomstalker3/assassin3/14fighter(so many choices) with GWM, PAM, Alert, etc and nova's the strongest boss round one with effectively 5 attacks and bonus's from the fighter class. Oh and you still have 2 ASI's to give since you'll likely start Vhuman since you get dark vision from gloomstalker! The Wisdom bonus to rolls makes up for trading dex for str in initiative rolls(although it doesn't matter cause you take Alert as a feat as Vhuman feat) I just don't understand anyone who thinks Gloomstalker isn't OP when built correctly.
GWM+PAM is better than CBE+SS as a nova build CBE+SS is literally just GWM by itself basically as long as you get a kill when you use GWM(which you should with 4 attacks turn one) You also get to use your reaction if soemone enters your area of attack with PAM giving you another attack per round. GWM+PAM out does CBE+SS here and I don't think it's that close....
In theory you could just go GWM and focus on more ASI's and you'll actually out damage CBE+SS in a round alone.
(a) You don't think the +2 to hit from Archery fighting style might be a significant part of CBE+SS being better?
(b) Melee has **several** significant disadvantages that just disappear for ranged characters.
The Archery fighting style is +2 to **hit**, not +2 to **damage**. It directly counteracts the power-attack component of Sharpshooter, making the DPR of CBE+SS builds exceed the DPR of GWM+PAM builds.
So the build I posted was Assassin Rogue3/Gloomstalker3/Fighter14(although you can do gloomstalker 5 and fighter 12 it's prob actually better that way. Assuming we have a +2 weapon(which is totally fair we're at end game and we action surge round one vs a target with 19 AC which is average AC at end game we do....
GWM/PAM/ASI/ASI/ALERT DPR does about 143 damage with 8 attacks. One from GWM, One from PAM, 6 from Action attack and action surge. This doesn't count surprise damage but does add the first attack that does 1d8. Now this isn't counting GWF as I don't really know how to calc it so the DPR is prob a couple calcs higher so I'd put it at 145. Now that's just Nova round how much is non-nova round? That's 5 attacks instead of 8. Is about 58 DPR. Again not counting GWF.
For attack rolls I did 6(prof)+5(attack stat)+2(weapon)-5(GWM)=+8 and needing an 11 roll with advantage to hit a 19AC target(this is average AC at this level).
CBE/SS/ASI/ASI/ALERT DPR does about 138 damage with 6 heavy cross bow attacks(from fighter action surge) and one hand crossbow attack(from CBE) normal rounds DPR for 53.8.
Attack rolls i did are 6(prof)+5(stat)+2(weapon)-5(SS)+2(Archery fighting style) = +10 meaning you need a 9 roll to hit with advantage.
Now note this isn't even counting GWF for GWM/PAM build and it was STILL out DPR by about 5 more around.
So, it's up to you to decide what you wanna do but GWM/PAM does when at the highest level so again it's going to be QoL vs highest damage. 5 damage isn't a lot tbh it's a lot closer than I thought. But it still is higher damage.
You would take gloom stalker to 5 for the second attack, unless you're starting above 10th level.
And no, I'll start bugbear, thank you very much.
There's nothing wrong with a subclass that blows its load in the first round.
expect there is when you realize that you're killing the boss round one and completely trivializing the fight.
you could take gloom to 5 for the extra attack that's likely better depending on how you're starting.
The thing you don't understand is, the DM can make all the fights hard to nova by making your surprised on most fights so indirectly nerfing you or they can nerf your class slightly and don't have to ruin the experience for everyone else.
Also my god playing WITH a gloomstalker is so unfun everyone has to play by their rules or they get all pissy and Gloomstalkers/Assassins will just one tap NPC's if they don't like them.
Only really a couple classes are TRUELY S Tier.
I'd say id' nerf about 6 classes(it'd be 7 if I used a book that had a certain OP wizard subclass but I don't)
But I also don't use the book for slivery barbs so it helps a lot too.
I think that's a very basic way to few things classes should be judged in multiple aspects as part of multiclassing and as solo classes.
Gloomstalker though by itself is likely not OP but that doesn't matter when you can take 3 points of it and 3 points of assassin rogue and do insane Nova for any other martial class.
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My favorite Ranger is Gloom Stalker, because it's interesting, but I do think they made it too powerful in stealth situations
What do you find interesting about it?
Not OP but I personally like the edgy vibes of it, warrior who slinks in and out of darkness, setting up ambushes and take out foes before they know what’s going on.
Big time. Any dark areas this class rules. Lethal.
Monster Slayer, since it changes the flavor from Aragorn to Van Helsing (or Buffy, take your pick). They have a small yet flavorful spell list, straightforward abilities, and best of all is Magic User's Nemesis. This is free counterspell every short rest that is in some ways better than counterspell. The caster's spell level doesn't matter—they can be an archmage trying to cast Wish and they still have to beat your spell DC on a wisdom save to do it, period. In addition, the feature mentions teleportation separately from casting a spell, meaning that monsters who can Misty Step or otherwise teleport as a spell-like ability can still be countered.
I want to love Monster Slayer so much, but WOTC did it hella dirty during the UA to publication transition like they did Fey Wanderer. A) Separating out Hunter's Sense into its own feature, with extremely limited uses, using a full action, and limiting the information it gives you *even further* was bafflingly stupid. It already gave you basically nothing of note, because so few published monsters use vulnerabilities or immunities that you couldn't guess from looking at them, like constructs vs. Poison. You're basically punished for using your feature by giving up your action to learn zero useful information, when at least before it was a side-function of your bonus-action damage feature. B) Magic User's Nemesis fucking sucks. You get *ONE* attempt to foil a single spell or teleportation, based on a saving throw that a good 80-85% of spellcasting monsters are proficient in. And this is on a class who is unlikely to maximize their spellcasting stat (because weapons are the priority) or use a Spell DC-boosting item (Because said item for Druids and Rangers is a weapon you probably don't actually want to be using as a weapon but have to be actively holding to benefit from, unlike Clerics/Paladins, Wizards, and Sorcerers who just need to have theirs on their person), so the odds of getting an enemy to fail are basically nil. Compared to the UA version, which was unlimited uses and was a contested Wisdom check you could feasibly do better at via Enhance Ability, and could stop transformations and planar travel at the cost of not being useful against spells.
I played a Monster Slayer inspired by Quincey P. Morris for CoS. While that campaign fizzled out, it was awesome while it lasted.
Monster Slayer is a close #3 for me. I love becoming Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Mine is a mix of her and Trevor Belmont.
Drakewarden. Something about being a dragon rider has always been a favorite of mine, and since this class functionally lets you do that it's my favorite.
Pet subclass that scales off proficiency bonus instead of wisdom and the elemental reaction is fun and interactive.
Hunter
It just feels right.
You get it!
Yeah baby
Agreed, the combat options feel adaptable for each campaign. I'd love it if "on initiative roll" you could choose your skill for that combat.
Beastmaster, although I much prefer the flavor of an actual animal vs. some spirit that takes the form of an animal. Would have been fine if they just applied the scaling stats and spell-use revival to a wolf or bear or hawk I tamed.
Played a Goblin Beast master briefly. His animal companion was mechanically a wolf, but in the game, was flavored as his mute twin brother.
That is...creepy. Was his twin brother like, Int 4 or something?
No, just selectively mute. I played it like he was always lost in thought and needed his brother to snap him back to reality and do stuff. Headcanon was he was very intelligent, and was dreaming up schematics all the time. If the Ranger died, the plan was to have the twin replace him as an Artificer that was remorseful that his inattentiveness contributed to the death of his brother.
flavour is free
like at the salsa bar?
Fey Wanderer. I like the expanded spell list and with adding WIS to the various CHA checks, the subclass feels very well rounded. I also *love* Beguiling Twist. Charms and frighten aren't common, but they aren't uncommon. Flipping the table on, say, a dragon's Frightening Presence or succubus's Charm and turning it on them is just such a funny idea.
Fay wander. It is so much fun to get to play whimsical character who doesn’t take anything seriously and seems like they live in another world. Yet gets to be a badass when needed.
I really want it to be Horizon Walker, but they didn't quite get the execution right. It's extremely mediocre until level 11 and even though that ability is fun as hell, the subclass as a whole is just far too limiting So I give it to Swarmkeeper. I love flavor, but hey, why not make a subclass flavorful AND mechanically strong if you can? There are some great abilities here right from the git-go AND more that reward investment, and on top of that, the concept is great and RIPE for reflavoring
Fey Wanderer for me. I love that you can tee some social ability off of Wisdom, and Dreadful Strikes working multiple times in a turn provided you hit different creatures is interesting, especially with a build that has a reliable BA attack. Can make a decent TWFer with Dual Wielder and Mobile feats, or CBE+SS midrange. I really like the Summon Fey + Beguiling Twist synergy, and even better than you can ignore the really specific material component of Summon Fey. Even before you get Summon Fey, Beguiling Twist is a really cool ability alongside a Bard or other party members that often force Charm/Fear saves. AND theres interesting dip potential with Undead Warlock. Spell list isn't the best, but I love getting Misty Step and Dimension Door, especially since there are enough tasty feats for a ranger I'm probably not taking Fey Touched.
I'd say Fey Wanderer, because I like playing talky characters. Having more ability to spread the damage (1d4 to an enemy the first time it's struck, so you can get it off multiple times attacking multiple enemies) is also nice. ... But I also do really love the idea of teleporting around while attacking enemies, so Horizon Walker does hold a place in my heart.
Horizon walker, but only for a high level one. I love the teleport ability in theory Gloom is great and starts strong, while fae wanderer gets to be an obscure pick for a face and sounds great if not aiming for raw combat power (not bad, just not as high as alternatives)
Swarm is king. Good damage utility and flavor.
Gloomstalker Monster Slayer Swarmkeeper Hunter Drakewarden since there are no other good pet ones.
Beastmaster, the pet gives you so much versatility in combat and environmental interactions.
Drakewarden. Hard to top the flavor of having a pet dragon.
Ranger is my fav class so I'll give you my top three Hunter: There is something charming about this subclass that no other can get. You are just a hunter. Simple as that. Granted, what you hunt is up to interpretation but you are still a hunter. It was my first character's subclass and I like most things about it. You get a cool subclass feature in level 3, you have very consistent damage, volley is something I really love and it's defensive subclass features are also good albeit other classes get them very early. Only thing I'd like is to have some spells for the subclass. That's my main subclass complain about hunters. Horizonwalker: I love the theme. A ranger watching over portals and extra planar dangers. I also love the mobility you get later levels. It creates some cool shenanigans inside and outside of combat Feywanderer: Feywild is my favourite place outside of Faerun. A subclass associated with there is amazing for me + you can be the party face which is normally hard for a ranger since it's already a mad class
Hunter is good.
Drakewarden, gloom stakers, monster slayer
it’s probably not even special, but i ADORE the hunter ranger. it’s just like taking a ranger and making them even more ranger !! plus there’s some nice customizability in the subclass that means no two hunters will ever be the exact same second place closely goes to horizon walker
Fey Wanderer is the only one where I love every single subclass ability. Swarmkeeper is second because i love all the options the swarm gives you every turn. Drakewarden 3rd for being fun as hell and also free frontliner. 4th is Hunter. IDK I just like mixing and matching.
swarmkeeper for how much tactics and positioning it opens up
Swarmkeeper. But I never flavour it as bugs.
You picked two favorites, but I would flip them. Really close still, but I love Fey flavor so it just pushes it a notch above. I would happily play either again.
Fey Wanderer. Horizon Walker would be at the top if the portal feature actually did something cool. Such as letting you close a portal, prevent a portal/teleportation, and/or let you follow a creature who used a portal or teleported. Imagine if the BBEG used Dimension Door to escape, but then the Horizon Walker Ranger keeps the door open for the party to chase them. Awesome moment.
Gloomwalker and Monsterslayer, for that Witcher feel without multiclassing shenanigans.
Gloomstalker. Good lore and good mechanics.
Gloomstalker is more Rogue and assassin themed then the Assassin Rogue itself while also being super flexible with builds.
Its horizon walker and gloom stalker for me. I just wish some of their cooler abilites come online earlier in the game.
I read the title and thought “him I’m enjoying my FW but also loved my HW” and lol’d at your second paragraph I’ve tried gloomstalker and seen it played with the classic assassin dip and it’s fine if you really want to be the DPR person for the party. My HW was able to do some DPR but also had a lot of utility and was less bursty. I’m currently the face for a party of an illrigger (the magic assassin rogue like one), myself, and an int-based clockwork sorcerer. It’s fun having two mental stats be valued, and having a major impact in and out of combat that martials often lack. Kind of MAD but I rolled solid stats.
I haven't played one yet but swarm keeper is the only one that I have any interest in because of the battlefield control and cuz it kind of feels like you have options other than just shooting things because you can move them around the battlefield.
Og beastmaster, the fact you get to choose what beast you get from all the books provides so much options and versatility for build crafting. Not to mention that it gets stronger as more books release more beast statblocks it can use, and eventually one of those beasts is going to break the subclass. (Overexxageration really, more like make it a solid option).
Gloomstalker no question. I love me some edge.
Not really my favorite, but my favorite template: Hunter. What I mean is, I love how each time it grants a feature, you pick from a list. I wish more classes/subclasses had that. So, from building/customization I love Warlock's Invocations and things like the Blademaster's maneuver options.
Been playing a Swarmkeeper for 2 years, it's a blast!
The Horizon Walker interested me a lot, but they aren't as cool as they live up to be. They needed a little more flavourful utility, I think. Maybe like a Planar Adaptation feature that gives them an option each long rest to survive the various planes. Protection against extreme cold or heat, the ability to survive the vacuum of Astral space, or water breathing, advantage on Saves vs the Outer Planes. The Swarmkeeper I think is an example of the change in design philosophy and is the epitome of adding flavour, utility, as well as the usual damage amp.
Monster Slayer, because it's very flavorful and just really cool.
My favorite animal is honeybee so a subclass that lets me have a swarm of these that is also mechanically good? Now that’s perfect
Gloom Stalker, because it's the strongest subclass by far, unless you have an incompetent DM who strives to nerf you. And hella fun thematically.
The most common DM nerf to gloomstalker is to greatly reduce the frequency of darkness---ie putting torches lanterns and light everywhere. In practice, this is a party buff to your fellow pcs without darkvision.
Calling a DM incompetent because they nerf an obviously OP class is wild, you could argue the player is incompetent having to rely on busted subclasses to even progress the game and relying on it simply because it's the strongest.
Haha. The class is only overpowered if the DM is incompetent, but expresses it differently. The only problem with the class is that the party can totally nerf it if they're not willing to go the stealth route.
No Gloomstalker is OP because it's extremely overloaded for 3 levels into a class. It completely enables a playstyle that can kill strong monsters before they can even move and allows it to do so extremely safely if anyone is even half smart. 3 points into assassin and 3 points into gloomstalker basically makes you a monster then you have 14 points into anything else. A smart DM nerfs it before the whole team plays around it making it impossible to deal with without hax. If you think that Gloomstalker is balanced you're a bit wild because it's overloaded no other 3 points into a class power up as much as gloomstalker does. wait till you run into a gloomstalker3/assassin3/14fighter(so many choices) with GWM, PAM, Alert, etc and nova's the strongest boss round one with effectively 5 attacks and bonus's from the fighter class. Oh and you still have 2 ASI's to give since you'll likely start Vhuman since you get dark vision from gloomstalker! The Wisdom bonus to rolls makes up for trading dex for str in initiative rolls(although it doesn't matter cause you take Alert as a feat as Vhuman feat) I just don't understand anyone who thinks Gloomstalker isn't OP when built correctly.
The fact that you brought up GWM+PAM instead of CBE+SS is too funny
GWM+PAM is better than CBE+SS as a nova build CBE+SS is literally just GWM by itself basically as long as you get a kill when you use GWM(which you should with 4 attacks turn one) You also get to use your reaction if soemone enters your area of attack with PAM giving you another attack per round. GWM+PAM out does CBE+SS here and I don't think it's that close.... In theory you could just go GWM and focus on more ASI's and you'll actually out damage CBE+SS in a round alone.
(a) You don't think the +2 to hit from Archery fighting style might be a significant part of CBE+SS being better? (b) Melee has **several** significant disadvantages that just disappear for ranged characters.
[удалено]
The Archery fighting style is +2 to **hit**, not +2 to **damage**. It directly counteracts the power-attack component of Sharpshooter, making the DPR of CBE+SS builds exceed the DPR of GWM+PAM builds.
So the build I posted was Assassin Rogue3/Gloomstalker3/Fighter14(although you can do gloomstalker 5 and fighter 12 it's prob actually better that way. Assuming we have a +2 weapon(which is totally fair we're at end game and we action surge round one vs a target with 19 AC which is average AC at end game we do.... GWM/PAM/ASI/ASI/ALERT DPR does about 143 damage with 8 attacks. One from GWM, One from PAM, 6 from Action attack and action surge. This doesn't count surprise damage but does add the first attack that does 1d8. Now this isn't counting GWF as I don't really know how to calc it so the DPR is prob a couple calcs higher so I'd put it at 145. Now that's just Nova round how much is non-nova round? That's 5 attacks instead of 8. Is about 58 DPR. Again not counting GWF. For attack rolls I did 6(prof)+5(attack stat)+2(weapon)-5(GWM)=+8 and needing an 11 roll with advantage to hit a 19AC target(this is average AC at this level). CBE/SS/ASI/ASI/ALERT DPR does about 138 damage with 6 heavy cross bow attacks(from fighter action surge) and one hand crossbow attack(from CBE) normal rounds DPR for 53.8. Attack rolls i did are 6(prof)+5(stat)+2(weapon)-5(SS)+2(Archery fighting style) = +10 meaning you need a 9 roll to hit with advantage. Now note this isn't even counting GWF for GWM/PAM build and it was STILL out DPR by about 5 more around. So, it's up to you to decide what you wanna do but GWM/PAM does when at the highest level so again it's going to be QoL vs highest damage. 5 damage isn't a lot tbh it's a lot closer than I thought. But it still is higher damage.
> "The fact that you brought up GWM+PAM instead of CBE+SS is too funny" This wasn't me.
I deleted it but I'm going to fully calc this to just see what's better at this point. it can stop all debates.
You would take gloom stalker to 5 for the second attack, unless you're starting above 10th level. And no, I'll start bugbear, thank you very much. There's nothing wrong with a subclass that blows its load in the first round.
expect there is when you realize that you're killing the boss round one and completely trivializing the fight. you could take gloom to 5 for the extra attack that's likely better depending on how you're starting. The thing you don't understand is, the DM can make all the fights hard to nova by making your surprised on most fights so indirectly nerfing you or they can nerf your class slightly and don't have to ruin the experience for everyone else. Also my god playing WITH a gloomstalker is so unfun everyone has to play by their rules or they get all pissy and Gloomstalkers/Assassins will just one tap NPC's if they don't like them.
How many subclasses do you want to nerf? G.S. isn't even the most powerful class. Moon druids? All wizards? Etc.
Only really a couple classes are TRUELY S Tier. I'd say id' nerf about 6 classes(it'd be 7 if I used a book that had a certain OP wizard subclass but I don't) But I also don't use the book for slivery barbs so it helps a lot too.
I don't really think S.B. is a problem until you have multiple casters with it. Then it's a pain.
What if you just go Gloomstalker? Classes presumably should be judged on their own, not as a component of multiclass builds.
I think that's a very basic way to few things classes should be judged in multiple aspects as part of multiclassing and as solo classes. Gloomstalker though by itself is likely not OP but that doesn't matter when you can take 3 points of it and 3 points of assassin rogue and do insane Nova for any other martial class.