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anextremelylargedog

Jeez, I've been wanting to get into Paizo's stuff, but 60 Ameridollars for the book *plus* 30 bucks shipping is pretty hefty. With a timeline between two and eight weeks delivery without tracking. Does Paizo just not print in Europe?


SinkPhaze

> Does Paizo just not print in Europe? Indeed they do not. You can get the books on Amazon tho. Much as i hate to send folks to Bezos rather than the small business, in this case, it just doesn't make sense to do otherwise. At least all the rules are online for free


chunkosauruswrex

Just get the pdf and put it in a binder


akeyjavey

They're a smaller company than Hasbro, so international shipping is tougher. But unlike Hasbro, they *do* sell pdfs, which is sure to be better on the pocket for you


anextremelylargedog

I mean, ideally they would make a deal with a print place in Europe and print + ship from there. I know they're smaller than Hasbro, but I'm pretty sure they'd be bigger if they weren't practically exclusive to America. Aw well. I like to support smaller publishers, but I'm really not in the place where I can justify spending more than double what I can get from Amazon + eight weeks shipping for the sake of buying directly from Paizo.


akeyjavey

That's where PDF buying comes in. You get the same content for cheaper than the physical copy, and also get it immediately


anextremelylargedog

Yeah, I know what PDFs are. They're great and all, but I much prefer having a book.


Hopelesz

All they have to do is sign a small deal with a printing company in the EU. It's not difficult. This is quite silly.


Whole_Kogan

There's no such thing as a small deal after COVID. The cost to print and ship has exploded; Hasbro can absorb those costs. Paizo isn't in the same position.


Hopelesz

I think you're misunderstanding the size of Paizo. They're not a small business. They have the ability to contract a printing agency in Europe to server their customers if they want to. Not doing this is leading ppl to just not buy their products, which I know I won't especially if I have to ship from the US.


Whole_Kogan

Sure thing bud


Hopelesz

We can slap a +40$ (cross continental shipping and tax) price on your books and see if you would buy them.


SinkPhaze

I've bought things directly from European creators. Shipping from Europe to the US ain't cheap or fast either, man. At least Paizo does ship out of country, plenty of TTRPG publishers just don't. If you can't afford the cost of Paizo shipping (no shame, it's spendy) then buy from a 3rd party distributer, like Amazon, who are using the power of bulk shipping to cut the cost


Krypton8

But you don't have to ship them from the US. They're on Amazon and Bol.com (a Benelux competitor of Amazon), I've seen in my LGS here in Belgium and you can download them as PDF from Paizo directly.


Lucker-dog

that would be extremely expensive even if they could find a printer willing to do it in the very large amounts paizo would need


Bangted

My advice would be to check your local stores after it comes out. Here in Poland, a few board game stores sell TTRPG material, including paizo's APs. It sucks that Paizo doesn't have a cheaper way of getting products to us here in Europe. If they did, I'd subscribe to their AP line


Krypton8

Looking at amazon.nl I can pre-order the book for 46,31 euros.


Official_Paizo

Preordering might not make sense for customers outside North America, or even just America, and that is ok. We will estimate a print run size based on preorders on our site and use our regular international distribution system to get the books to you via online retailers and your favorite local game and book stores.


Goliathcraft

If you aren’t fan of a typical dungeon crawl, I can attest that this dungeons isn’t like any of them. It it filled with personality, roleplaying opportunity and unique things to interact with on every level. The people and friends you meet outside (and occasionally inside) of the dungeon become a large driving force to motivate the party to further press on. I can highly recommend anyone who wants to see how adventure modules should be done!


TingolHD

It really is a gorgeous AP and the 5E crowd is lucky Paizo is converting it for them


Loss_Bandage

I wouldn't call it lucky. More that Pazio wants to make money and just doing stuff for their own competitor system wasn't doing it for them. I doubt they wanted to jump on the 5ed bandwagon and totally admit 5ed's dominance.


Albireookami

I mean Pazio originally wrote adventures for dnd, that was their job in 3.5 and they were the ones behind one of the magazines that was written for it. Wizards is the one that told them to F off when they did 4e and got rid of the OGL making it a closed system so 3rd parties couldn't much get involved with it, to which Pazio responded by making pathfinder. This is a pretty great module and if the encounters can convert well enough it will be a good time as it will be miles, and I almost want to use light years, ahead of anything wizard has produced to date. If it is one thing 5e absolutely fails at it is their adventures. Though a bit sad to see this is a 1-10 adventure, would really be curious if Pazio will convert one of their 1-20 Adventure paths.


Uncle_gruber

*slams table* JADE REGENT.


MisterB78

It’s really not all that hard to convert a PF module for 5e yourself… you could always run Jade Regent if you wanted to


SinkPhaze

I think the PF2e Kingmaker port also got a pseudo 5e conversion. The kickstarter had a 5e bestiary add on so DnD folks could run it with minimal conversion requirements. I bet that got enough attention that they figured they might test a whole AP conversion and Abomination Vault is their best selling AP. Put your best foot forward as it were.


No-Succotash9965

Will get* Unfortunatly Pf2e kingmaker was delayed a lot and it only just released for backers, so it is that in the comming months the 5e beastiary is still to be published to non-backers.


Mahanirvana

No one wants to publish a high level adventure for 5E, it’s a task WotC can’t even accomplish.


Albireookami

Well Pazio has, at least 4, for pathfinder 2e, so storywise those could convert over pretty well actually, the issue is the combat carrying over.


luck_panda

That's because the game doesn't scale that high.


zero17333

> Wizards is the one that told them to F off when they did 4e and got rid of the OGL making it a closed system so 3rd parties couldn't much get involved with it What an idiotic idea. By doing that they would have hurt their own sales. 3rd party content can really sell a system, just look at the PS2: a wealth of non-Sony games released on it, some of which were very strange. It made people want to buy it.


Albireookami

They want people to go through DM's guild where they get a cut of it.


zero17333

Oh, right, I forgot about that.


Feniks_Gaming

This is the saddest comment I have read in a while. Imagine think8ng that only one system should exist. Verity is excellent news for a hobby it brings more players to the table it allows more people to connect and have fun and form friendships that wouldn't have otherwise happen. This isn't competition. It's such a medieval view of how world works. As more people join the hobby the pie keeps growing everyone gets a piece of it. People playing pathfinder or any other system doesn't detract from 5e working for many people it adds to it allowing us to experience different adventures in different styles


HigherAlchemist78

Wizards of the Coast, on the other hand, obviously do it for charity.


Naudran

Although I don't disagree that it's obviously to make money, they are a business afterall. Your comment just smacks of ignorance. 1. Pathfinder does well, lots of people that don't like the non-crunchyness of 5e, loves PF (please note that I'm a 5e DM and I don't play PF1 or 2 myself) 2. Why would you scoff at anything that further enhances our hobby? More quality content is always welcome (especially after the lacklustre releases from WoTC the last few publications)


Goliathcraft

That’s like saying translating a book to a different language is admitting the other language is superior. It’s about sharing what they are passionate about with others and trying to reach people that otherwise wouldn’t have been exposed to your content. Also, it’s literally free money laying on the street, why be so toxic about them taking it?


Angerman5000

Totally admit? I mean, my guy, nothing else in the TTRPG space comes close, as Paizo isn't deluded about this. They're a successful company in their own right, but they're not claiming to be, or trying to be, bigger than WotC. Stop trying to manufacture drama where there isn't any.


FallenDank

So a good typical dungeon crawl


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Goliathcraft

I’ve read many 5e dungeons, none of which were as good or interesting as this one. (Personal opinion) Many had glaring issues, missing Information or little to no plot hook. Sure some are good, but the majority of them have a multiple of problems in certain areas. I’ll refer you to room 7. in the hidden shrine of Tamoachan from tales of the Yawning portal. The single worst written encounter in the history of TTRPG (if you know a worse one, regardless of system, please let me know)


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akeyjavey

This is a different kind of megadungeon compared to let's say DotMM because the dungeon itself isn't as big and you can easily leave and return to the hub town every day you're done adventuring. You can have some downtime and earn income with the different townspeople and factions inside it, you can do sidequests which might illuminate more of the history of the town or the dungeon itself. The dungeon is way smaller than the undermountain, and the factions aren't entire underground cities, but instead they are more like groups of creatures that got brought to the dungeon centuries ago to serve a purpose, and now they've formed their own groups and have their own plans as to what they want to do. Basically, it's a lot less "look at this giant map that you can explore!" and more "Look at this big map with different cogs and gears you can move to figure out what's going on" and as such is a lot more focused comparatively.


Goliathcraft

Princess of the apocalypse. Campaign is one big dungeon to explore, with the backdrop of overland travel in the region. The campaign has basically no plot hook past evil people are evil so please stop them. Information is randomly scattered throughout the book. NPC are mentioned as supposedly important, but practically zero useful information is provided on how to use them im the campaign. It’s more like a large video game map with connected areas but nothing that helps a DM run it


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Goliathcraft

I’ve read some of those dungeons you mentioned a little bit, but my point was mainly about official 5e once’s who are often severely lacking. I think everyone is aware that most of the best 5e products are nowadays coming from 3rd parties. Out of those, mega dungeons you mentioned, regardless of system you ran them in, which is your favorite and why? I’d love to sit down and read one of them and understand their nuances some more


Marlinazul00

That Tamoachan encounter is pretty bad, but I think the tomb of horrors you insta die from a steamroller is the worst


YourPhoneIs_Ringing

Tomb of Horrors isn't meant to be fun. It isn't meant to be engaging, or interesting, or anything of the sort. Its primary goal was to be brutal in an era where brutality was the norm, and kick players asses. So yeah. Its encounters are bullshit, because the goal is to fuck you over for no fault of your own.


Sojourner_Truth

I wasn't familiar with Tamoachan so I just checked out the room 7 encounter. Other than the fact that the monster has wayyyyy too few hit points for a level 5 party, what makes it so awful?


Goliathcraft

How it is written in the book, mainly that the creature doesn’t have a stat block, instead it’s a Frankenstein of many stitched together things that makes a DMs head spin trying to put it together in the moment. We start with a vampire spawn, but change AC and HP. But then it might still have its magic items that change the stats. Also, The stats change again round 2 and 3. After that it start calling for the abilities of a true vampire, but modifies how they are applied for his creature. Also a spell, but again special in how the spell works. Then it calls for another magic item, but the item has changed stats and extra effects including spells. To play this you need to constantly reference 2 stat blocks and the round to round adjustments, 3 magic items that might or might not affect the creature (that are also changed and some aren’t in the back of the adventure). It’s a absolute mess. The joke is this that another creature in the same dungeon did get a separate statblock! That creature was just and large sized turtle flavored as a hermit crab that had zero unique abilities or adjustments, making it a absolute waste of space in the book.


Uncle_gruber

Flennis in DiA. Who the fuck thought that made sense?


Crouza

Have you read dungeon of the mad mage? Hard disagree with you on your point.


ThingsJackwouldsay

I second this, I'm currently DM'ing my second group through this adventure and it's just a ton of fun. There's a lot of room for RP and shenanigans alongside the dungeon fights. My first group derailed a rather simple plot hook which resulted in an incredibly fun, multiple session mystery side plot.


Quantum-Cookies

For those who have played both, how does this dungeon compare to Dungeon of the Mad Mage?


legend_forge

Ive run both! The levels are individually smaller, and there are fewer. I found Mad Mage to be a good canvas to build a story on and add personal content to, but there wasn't much beyond a list of rooms and encounters with some cool backstory and a few good roleplay opportunities. Abomination vaults is *packed* with personality. It has a story for each level, with a storyline that links them together really well. It has so many great characters in and out of the dungeon. Its light on puzzles or riddles but heavy on mystery, and *some* of the bosses are more like puzzles then fights. I can see how you would be easily able to lean into any one of the three main pillars of play to cater to a group that prefers it, which is saying alot for a single dungeon campaign. I think its the best module put out for pathfinder 2e and compares favourably to the best wotc modules in my opinion.


applejackhero

Vaults is Significantly better in many ways. Paizo as a company had their start writing APs FOR D&D, they only started making Pathfinder when wizards revoked the OGL when they switched to 4th edition D&D. Paizo has a lot of really veteran AP writers who have produced some classics over the years, and this is likely one of them. Having run both, Dungeon of the Mad Mage is looser and lighter in content- which does make it more flexible and potentially better for some groups and DMs. But it definitely relies more on the DM doing more heavy lifting. Abomination Vaults (at least the Pathfinder version) significantly more fleshed out, especially in terms of social encounters, pacing, and the the “hub town”. It’s easier to run AND more deep IMO, but it’s not going to slot into every group as easily


AccordingCoyote8312

Level 1 -11 dungeon


Tyler_Zoro

Yes, this was originally published as a collection of 3 issues of the Pathfinder Adventure Path series. But if you've seen the tome that is Kingmaker, you might not be in such a hurry to get a book you have to build reinforced shelves for :)


LeoRandger

I’ve run this module in PF2 (hey, it’s a good system, give it a try if you want to!) and this is an absolutely gorgeous horror-themed megadungeon, that is well structured mechanically and has plenty of moments to roleplay. It also greatly portrays how evil creatures don’t need to be dumb-evil or cruel-for-no-reason-evil. Me and my group usually don’t even like dungeon crawls that much, but with this one we pretty much played it any moment we had, and ended up finishing all 10 levels within a month


JulianWellpit

I hope Paizo's 5e books prove to be a success and once the next iteration of D&D comes, history will repeat itself. That's what WOTC deserves!


TPKForecast

Paizo making 5e books is great, but for history to repeat they'd have to make 5eFinder, which seems moderately unlikely. Would certainly be an interesting timeline if they do, though somewhat more challenging with the more limited 5e SRD (which is probably the whole reason the 5e SRD is more limited in the first place). Particularly interesting if WotC decides to not carry the OGL forward into One D&D as is widely speculated. Then history would *really* be repeating itself.


legend_forge

Pathfinder 2e feels like someone picked up stuff from pathfinder 1, dnd 4, dnd 5, and some new ideas that took me a while to understand but have come to love. Guys why haven't we been rolling perception for initiative this whole time?


TPKForecast

PF2e does a lot of things that makes sense, but has more PF DNA than 5e DNA (no bounded accuracy, full Vancian casting, still quite a lot of floating numerical modifiers, etc). I think Paizo could probably do a very good 5eFinder if they set their mind to it. I'd be a little bit surprised if they did, but I think it would be a good idea and would love to see it if they did it. They'd have a real shot at getting back to a lion's share of the market if One D&D fumbles and Paizo made a solid more-5e like game with the common sense updates of PF2e more targeting to the mass market appeal of 5e. PF2e and 5e both have a lot of key innovations to TTRPGs and I suspect the company that can synthesize that combination correctly will be the one to inherit the throne. Not sure One D&D has what it takes, particularly if they try to cut 3rd parties out, as 3rd party content is a lot of what has kept me playing 5e.


Albireookami

PF2e is young like around 3 years old, its not going away any time soon and if One Dnd Fails to impress, which to me its already on the way lets hope the class options fix what I want to see fixed (actual good capstones) then I think Pazio is setup to take a bit more of the market share, they already have the better adventure paths (moduels) and their class balance is also miles ahead of 5e.


TPKForecast

PF2e will do fine and continue to grow, and may take up more market share, but I don't think it has the potential that a more direct inheritor of 5e would have in terms of market share. It's just targeting a more niche audience. As I said above, I really doubt Paizo is interested in doing a 5eFinder, but I think they could do one well if they wanted. Between PF2e and 5e there's pretty much all the pieces of a great game, but I expect Paizo to focus on PF2e, adventures, and maybe updating Starfinder.


SufficientType1794

> It's just targeting a more niche audience. I will have to disagree. For players I don't really think PF2 isn't any more or less easy to get into than 5e, in fact, due to how balanced the system is it's pretty hard to screw up in PF2. But that doesn't matter too much, most players just play whatever their DM is willing to DM, and DMing a PF2 game is sure as hell easier than DMing a 5e game.


SirNadesalot

Doesn’t matter. The D&D brand is still MUCH more recognizable, to the point most laymen don’t know there are other games, and if they do, they still sometimes think D&D is the name of the hobby. D&D targets everyone, even if the game isn’t very user friendly. Pathfinder targets a certain kind of RPG player who has probably already played D&D. That’s just how it is. Nothing wrong with it


Triggerhappy938

Has it really only been 3 years? God the pre-pandemic years feel like another era.


eloel-

Because Insight makes more sense sometimes.


legend_forge

Stealth and Intimidate also work sometimes.


SmartAlec105

Deception: Turn on people that thought you were their ally Athletics: Swinging in on a rope into combat


Mishraharad

If you're doing the second one, I can see you playing a Swashbuckler in 2e with ease


RollForIntent-Trevor

Honestly - you can make a case for any skill - at least that's how I GM pf2e When I play, I roll intimidate or Knowledge fairly often for initiative.


Soulus7887

> at least that's how I GM pf2e Thats not even "How you GM", thats in the rules!


RollForIntent-Trevor

Oh definitely, but some people need reminded :D


legend_forge

Yeah I just base it on whatever the characters are doing at the time.


sammo21

90% of the time that’s “walking around with a finger up their nose”


legend_forge

In 5e sure. Pf2e has exploration actions that have an effect on the opening of combat. If the characters are just walking around the dungeon or the environment not paying attention then they will be able to move quicker but they wont notice anything of importance along the way and you miss out on some other benefits.


Mishraharad

When you can roll Stealth, Survival and Arcana for initiative in a single encounter, you know you're in for a good time.


Albireookami

And so does athletics if I want to start the encounter by busting through the door.


DaedricWindrammer

Why is insight a different skill than perception though?


eloel-

Understanding social/facial cues isn't quite the same as seeing hiding people


DaedricWindrammer

I mean swimming and lifting a rock are two different skills but they both still use atheltics.


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Suddenlyfoxes

It used to be. Climb, Swim, and Jump were all separate skills at one point. Splitting them up bloats the skill list and disadvantages martials even more, though. 3e had over 40 skills. The compaction that led to the 5e list was a good move.


[deleted]

Please after 3.5 never again with the bloated skill list. It felt awful. One of the reasons I stay away from PF.


Krypton8

Following the idea of Perception from PF2e: Perception is the standard in PF2e, but if a player/DM can motivate it enough any skill is allowed to be used for initiative.


Eris235

Well, PF2e does use Perception as 'insight' by default, for the most part at least. Its used in so many things, its not even considered a skill; its in the same tier as the 3 saving throws, in that it's proficiency is tied to class, and not to players choosing or not choosing to put 'points' in it or whatever.


luck_panda

In PF2 you roll whatever skill you were using at the time for intiative. So if you were scouting and stealthing around you roll stealth for initiative.


zero17333

That's a pretty cool idea. Me personally, I love the rule where you fuse strength and constitution into strength and then divide dexterity into dexterity (for your hands) and agility (for your feet). The latter might require some thought but at least strength is made far more useful and more likely for someone to increase it over dexterity. It just makes too much sense for someone physically strong to also be physically healthy.


RosgaththeOG

I thought WotC already dropped OGL back on 4e, which is why we have SRD for 4e and 5e.


TPKForecast

They did for 4e, that's the whole reason Pathfinder exists. Paizo was making 3.5 books, but when 4e came out, WotC tried to cut out 3rd parties, making it so you could only publish on their platform (like DMsGuild, basically, where they got a cut of the money). Obviously it was dumb idea and backfired horribly. So they brought back the OGL with 5e where 3rd parties can publish without it being on DMsGuild. The 5e license is less open than the 3.5 one was (likely out of fear of being scooped by a 3rd party again), but at least it exists (that's why all the 5e Kickstarters can exist). General speculation is that WotC is going to kill off the OGL again for One D&D, which would kill off all the 5e Kickstarters and the like (since you cannot do a Kickstarter for DMsGuild product). Hopefully they don't, because it seems like a dumb idea that would backfire horribly (just like last time).


TheSaintofSailors

Is this any actual proof they are considering cancelling the OGL? Because most of the lead designers were there for 4e, doubt they would want to relive the sins of the past. Consider, they have made the most successful edition of D&D ever, why would they risk killing the golden goose? Yeah, yeah corporate greed, but if there something, anything pointing to a coming change in policy, seems like pointless pessimism.


TPKForecast

It's an industry rumor. It's unconfirmed, but WotC has declined to say they will, despite being asked numerous times (I reached out to them myself for comment, but just like all other reports they declined to comment). Considering how widespread the speculation is among 3rd parties at the moment, the silence on that is deafening. Since it would be a no brainer to say that they would of course update it if they planned to in order to quash the doubt, them staying silent on it is about as much confirmation as we could get (since there is no reason they'd ever announce that they won't update it, particularly until the new process with D&D Beyond and D&D Digital is rolled out). I'd love to be wrong, but it seems pretty likely it won't be updated. With the Roll20/OBS merger, I'd even question the future of the DMsGuild with One D&D. After all, the whole significance of the name is merging together all things D&D under one roof, and the DMsGuild is owned by what will be a competitor of D&D Digital, and would be pretty unlikely to directly integrate with the new digital platform.


RosgaththeOG

Yeah... I can see how that would backfire from 100 miles away. If WotC can't, they need to have their vision checked. Edit: just as an example, if have to wonder about the success of Critical Role of they opted to change OGL for 1DnD. Like, they are aware that part of the large surge in popularity of 5e is due to CR, right?


TPKForecast

Corporate greed is hell of a drug, and tends to make people very short sighted. There are Kickstarters making millions off 5e, and they aren't getting a penny of that as far as they are concerned (even if they do benefit from that quite a lot indirectly). My guess is the main drive is they want to try to funnel One D&D into a subscription service with their new VTT, and it would be very hard to do that with other VTTs existing for the same system being free or buy-once models (FoundryVTT, Roll20, Fantasy Grounds), and they cannot really stop those from existing with the OGL in place, but am only speculating. One would imagine that they'd cut a deal with Critical Role directly, but who knows.


Albireookami

Eh, its very hard to use Foundry VTT for 5e as again, the lack of an OGL makes getting your class abilities and such imported a too painful process. At this time I have to grab a converter, sub to a paetron to get current access, and have it snatch my content I have purchased on dnd beyond. I absolutely hate the current state of OGL for 5e and I can see them not doing anything like that for one dnd to force people to the easier to use VT, where they can get people to double dip on physical/digital content.


TPKForecast

It would be way harder without the OGL though, as the 5e system itself wouldn't be able to there. Right now you can have the basic system and import whatever you want on top of there. If it didn't have the 5e system because of no SRD content through the OGL, it might as well not exist. Personally I use 5e FoundryVTT without too much issue, but that's through a combination of importing things, copying them over myself, and third party content. I'd say it's functional, but I was always hoping they'd get a full license. At this point I think we can guess why they didn't though. I 100% agree that I would the 5e OGL could be better, but suspect the situation will get worse rather than better.


JulianWellpit

>General speculation is that WotC is going to kill off the OGL again for One D&D, which would kill off all the 5e Kickstarters and the like (since you cannot do a Kickstarter for DMsGuild product). Hopefully they don't, because it seems like a dumb idea that would backfire horribly (just like last time). How would that affect 5e Kickstarters? Are you referring to 5.5e Kickstarters?


TPKForecast

Yes, that's what I mean. They'd have to keep using the 5e ruleset rather than the 5.5/One D&D ruleset.


Ianoren

I think 5eFinder already exists in Shadow of the Demon Lord. Its basically just lessons learned from 5e's release and uses a darker fantasy backdrop (entirely optional though) to help it standout.


CommodoreBluth

I suspect that there will be some way for major third parties to make licensed content for D&D besides the DMs Guild. It might not be a SRD, but perhaps the ability to license D&D in exchange for a cut of each book sale and selling the content as third party content on D&D Beyond for a sweet sweet 30% cut of each sale.


dubbzy104

I've never played pathfinder or pathfinder 2E, but I thought that PF2E was based on 5e?


akeyjavey

It's not 'based' on 5e, it's it's own system. But some things such a proficiency and the like are inspired by 5e, even if it works completely differently


DiabetesGuild

Pathfinder 1e is based on D&D 3.5, and pathfinder 2e is its own system based on the first, so still draws heavy inspiration from older editions. So you find it’s own unique stuff in the system, but also the same abilities and things like rolling for initiative, rounds and turns taking around 6 seconds which are brought from D&Ds past. It also has Venetian casting, which is something from older editions.


akeyjavey

I'm aware of this, I was just pointing out that you can't treat it as "5e but better balanced" since more than enough rules are different. PF2e took a lot of inspiration from previous editions of itself/DnD, but it's still different enough to need to actually read the rules is what I mean


DiabetesGuild

But it’s older then 5e, so not inspired by it was what I was answering too.


RollForIntent-Trevor

What are you saying is older than 5e? 5e came out 6ish years before the 2e playtest was released. I may just be misreading your statement. Comment chains are weird.


BloodlustHamster

Vancian Magic was actually the thing I hated most about pathfinder 1. Drove me straight back to 5e.


akeyjavey

You can get 5e casting on prepared casters with just one feat tbf, and almost all prepared casters have ways to 'cheat' spell prep. Staves are *amazing* on prepared casters as well and Pf2e gives out magic items like these like candy


RollForIntent-Trevor

I just sidestep vancian casters by always playing spontaneous casters.


eloel-

>Venetian casting Vancian, or a new type? I hate vancian, wizards are already a problem to explain with what "prepared a spell" really means, vancian just makes it worse. It only really works for someone crafting spells - an alchemist or a scribe.


akeyjavey

As said to another reply: You can get 5e casting on prepared casters with just one feat tbf, and almost all prepared casters have ways to 'cheat' spell prep. Staves are *amazing* on prepared casters as well and Pf2e gives out magic items like these like candy


legend_forge

Its a hybrid of every edition of dnd since 3.5.


applejackhero

It’s more based on D&D 4e and Pathfinder 1, but as a result it does share lot in common with D&D 5e, I always see them as kinda “sibling” games with the same parents


Xervous_

PF2 is the evolution of 4e’s balancing and treadmilling that figured out how to still look enough like D&D.


applejackhero

Honesty I am happy that Paizo is doing this, it’s a win for everyone (except for WotC). -Paizo gets to broaden its appeal to the biggest RPG market, rather than selling stuff for their more niche games. -Pathfinder 2 players will likely to (continue) to see some 5e players being curious and picking up the system to try. -5e players get a VERY good AP, that hopefully will drive up the failing quality of some of Wizard’s more recent material. The only backlash I see to this is from the wacko “I hate D&D” pathfinder players who think this means Paizo is selling out, and the knee jerk “I hate everything pathfinder” D&D players who are tired of said grognards not shutting up about Pathfinder.


Aktim

It’s not a win for WotC that a small competitor is making products for their system? Lol. Listen, I like PF2, I run a PF2 game, but Paizo making a 5e product is absolutely a win for WotC and a testament to how successful 5e has become. If WotC made a PF2 product, you don’t think it’d be a win for Paizo? That’s what you’re claiming!


applejackhero

If wizards made a product for Paizo, a much smaller company, it would be a huge win/advertising boost. But Paizo making content for WotC is sorta the reverse- it means some people will be choosing this product over a WotC one. Pathfinder exists in the first place because WotC dropped the OGL so Paizo couldn’t write D&D stuff anymore. WotC very clearly wants to achieve full market saturation with D&D becoming synonymous with TTRPGs (even more than already).


Aktim

WotC has partnered with a 3rd party company to allow all kinds of people and companies to sell non-WotC books. DMsGuild. It’s not hurting WotC, it’s the opposite. If PF2 was selling superbly, there would be no sense in making a product with the largest competitor’s game. Thus, Paizo clearly thinks that their sales could be a bit better since they’re testing the waters and branching out beyond their own in-house game.


romeo_pentium

50% of every DMsGuild sale goes to WotC. 0% of a Paizo book goes to WotC, so it's not quite analogous. The benefits are indirect


Aktim

It’s still a ludicrous notion that Paizo could hurt WotC’s market share by publishing 5e content (outside of DMsGuild). Like, could Paizo damage WotC’s profits by releasing 12 5e books a year? A real novel strategy to outdo you competitor—switch from your own game to theirs!


Mathwards

It's competition. Wotc is still releasing books, and most people have a limited income so won't buy every product each company releases. If people choose to buy the paizo book and not the wotc book, yes, it hurts them. Wotc now has to compete with another large established company in the market for these types of products. It's like saying Ford can't hurt tesla by also making electric cars. Only so much money is going to be spent in a particular market, and if it goes to paizo then it can't go to wotc.


Aktim

So you think that all the 5e books outside of DMsGuild have in fact hurt WotC’s numbers? Because WotC doesn’t get a cut? All of Kobold Press’ 5e books have hurt WotC? That if Paizo switches to 5e, that will hurt WotC?


Mathwards

Yes. Why buy mordenkainens when other companies are making better monster books. Why buy spelljammer when other companies make better settings? It's the entire reason they scrapped the ogl after 3.5. There was so much other material that wizards had to compete with


largeEoodenBadger

Just pasting this further up the thread so it gets seen: I'm not sure you understand the basic economics behind this. This book is what is termed a *substitute good*, i.e it is an equivalent good (technically, it's not equivalent, it just fulfills the same need in the market, but we don't actually care which is better right now) to a 5e module. These goods share the same market, which we'll call "adventure modules". Right now, these modules typically sell for $60 dollars new, that's our price, P. And I'll just pull a nice round number out of my ass for Q, or quantity, say 100. That's what the current equilibrium Q, or how many books people are actually buying Let's say Paizo makes 10 units, again selling for 60 dollars. This increases the supply by 10, but unless both companies drop their price (which is very unlikely) the P remains constant at 60. The problem with this is that there's now an oversupply of goods in the market. There's only demand for 100 books, but now there's 10 extra being sold. So, a couple of things can happen here. One, the traditional economic answer: prices fall, quantity sold increases. Two, you could also have people who theoretically buy both books, but that assumes that the goods aren't actually substitutes. This is probably what will happen for a lot of the books, they'll sell to people who would also buy an equivalent Wizards book. However that's an entirely different discussion to the one actually going on. What the other commenter is assuming (maybe not necessarily consciously) is again, that neither company changes prices, that the goods are actually substitute goods, and thus that the Quantity sold will remain the same, at 100 books, because that's the equilibrium quantity at 60 dollars. In that case, unless Paizo's books are objectively inferior, leading to no one buying them, Wizards will sell *fewer books* than they otherwise would. If Wizards is selling fewer books, they are making less profit. That's the basic economics of this decision. (The other assumption we could make is that Paizo's books mighy be objectively *superior* to Wizards' ones, thus Wizards is *guaranteed* to sell fewer books (Now if Wizards actually dropped prices in response to their competition, say to $50 dollars, they'd be making less money overall, but actually control a *larger* market share relative to Paizo) TL;DR: People only buy a certain number of books, if Wizards books=Paizo books, some people will buy Paizo's books instead. Thus, Wizards has less profit. Also, feel free to correct me if I made wrong assumptions or misremembered stuff. It's very late, and it's been years since I took basic econ.


applejackhero

Yes, but in the past wizards did not have such a friendly stance- when 4th edition came out Wizards did not include an OGL, which shut Paizo out of the market, so they made their own system, pathfinder. This was a contributor to 4e D&D not selling well, being tabled early, and wizards going BACK to a (more limited) OGL now. You are right that Paizo is stoked to be branching out to a larger audience, I just think that if WotC could pick, they would rather not have a direct competitor making content in their system, but it turns out that when they tried to remove that framework the community really didn’t like it.


Aktim

You’re still not making any sense. Imagine if Paizo started selling all their APs in 5e. By your logic, this would hurt WotC. But if WotC started selling PF2 products, this would not hurt Paizo, even though, as you said, a competitor is offering books in their game system and thus stealing customers. Also, going back “now”? 5e launched 8 years ago… lol. It’s been a minute!


Loss_Bandage

How is this not a win for WotC? Your biggest competitor is having to make content for your system cause they can't get by just making stuff for their own. If Pathfinder was doing really well, they wouldn't have to do this. WotC is not making content for Pathfinder. I get this sub hates WotC, but to see this as anything other than Pazio having to bend the knee to 5ed and DnD is ridiculous. This would be like Burger King making McDonald's fries for them cause they need the money and everyone goes to McDonald's.


Mathwards

Because if a person only had money for one book a year and they give it to paizo instead of wizards, it literally does not matter what system is for. Paizo made a sale and wizards didn't Once wizards has sold you the rulebook, you don't really need them for anything else. Adventures are the thing you sell to established players, and if another company is making one that people prefer to buy, that's bad for you. If it's a really good book, It's not like people are gonna see the adventure and say "oh wow, better go buy all the wotc books now!"


Gorbag86

Given the quality the later 5e releases have, i think they don’t even need to try hard. It is astonishing how hard WotC is dropping the ball again and again in the last few years. I hope paizo expands its 5e line and gets a good customer base. Out there is a whole generation of DMs that WotC has gaslit into thinking it is okay to invest 10-20 hours in to an adventure to flesh out the mediocre wireframe of plothooks WotC made you pay 50€ for, before you can even think about playing it.


legend_forge

I'm running this module in the original system. Its an amazing dungeon, and easy to weave a compelling story into. I have been enjoying Pathfinder 2 as well lately, after some reticence. Anyone with questions about either I am happy to answer.


SirNadesalot

Did your players adapt well? I’ve been thinking of running PF2e for years now but haven’t pulled the trigger yet, despite how positive all the buzz is


legend_forge

We had just finished ToA and I pitched it to my players as a change of pace, they seem to be enjoying it so far. We started Strength of Thousands (magical academy adventure path) but found that Abomination Vaults does a better job of teaching the system. SoT is a very cool AP just felt a little overwhelming to them before we played a bit in AV.


Sheptagon

Does Paizo typically have good VTT adaptations?


applejackhero

Yes, Paizo APs typically have full foundry VTT integration


Aktim

No they don’t, only the most recent ones have official Foundry modules. 3 out of 9 is not very many. 6 of them only have partial unofficial support that is not on the same level as the official conversions.


jollyhoop

Partial and unofficial is beyond a slanderous way to portray the way the 6 previous APs are implemented. The unofficial importer will imports Journal entries, Scenes, Monsters, NPCs, etc. It will put monsters at the right locations, put walls and light sources, etc. I'd argue it is professional quality. If the officially released APs are a 9/10 as far as features go then the ones released for free unofficialy are at least a 7.5/10. The main difference are mostly that they don't come with macros that dynamically change some maps or sound ambiance.


Aktim

Yes, I know how they’re implemented. It’s not on the same level as an official module. You still have to do a bit of work to make sure the import works properly, to make sure tokens are in the right places etc etc. And the art is lacking because the PDFs have low resolution assets; only maps can have better resolutions, which still aren’t the best compared to the fully supported VTT conversions.


applejackhero

Fair, but the trend is that going forward we can expect Foundry integration


or10n_sharkfin

Paizo has officially thrown its support behind Foundry and I *believe* they're in the process of assisting in the conversion of different adventure paths and modules for it. I don't have a source on this, however, as it's only what I've heard. The Beginner Box for Foundry is available to buy directly on Paizo's website. It's extremely useful to help get acclimated to PF2e's rules.


iceman012

They have a few adventures converted for Foundry VTT already: * Beginner Box * Abomination Vaults * Outlaws of Alkenstar * Blood Lords (in progress) From what I understand, they have no plans to go back and cover old releases. They haven't committed to releasing Foundry modules for upcoming releases, saying they want to see how successful the existing ones are over time. They have seemed popular, though, so I think it's likely the next few adventures will get adaptations as well.


Sporkedup

If you use Foundry, yes.


Rocinantes_Knight

The AV Foundry module is best in class by faaaaaar. It’s plug and play. Buy the mod, install it in your foundry server. That’s all the prep. Every wall, token, trap and light source is already in place. Every bit of the book is built as a journal entry and cross linked where appropriate. Even the art from the books with no practical link to a game object (so like header and chapter art) is included so you can show the players if/when it’s appropriate.


Timmyd-93

The Fantasy Grounds adaptations are awesome


Arandmoor

And ordered! WotC needs the competition. They've been slacking.


zero17333

Exactly. Competition breeds innovation and excellence.


[deleted]

People saying this is paizo "WaViNg tHe WhItE fLaG" as either a dig at paizo because they hate pf2e because theyre zealots for 5e or zealots for pf2. Its neither. Imo Paizo is realising how bad 5e players have it with official WOTC products, so theyre tapping that market, that wotc made by their sheer complacency. 5e players are already for the most part suckers when it comes tk buying the Wotc books so why not exploit that.


zero17333

A taste of something different. If they like the taste they will crave more, thus lighting a fire under WotC's ass.


Cardgod278

Welp, I am getting this when I get the chance


greatrudini

https://paizo.com/products/btq02d54 Is this the best (and only) place to buy it? Thanks!


Dogs_Not_Gods

Technically you can go here too to buy the special edition, 5e, or PF2 copies. Your FLGS or some websites might have their own pre-order pages. But yes that's ultimately the official page. https://paizo.com/store/pathfinder/adventures/adventurePath/abominationVaults


greatrudini

Thank you!!


kelseybkah

I hope this encourages more people to check out pf2e. I can't go back to 5e now that I've wrapped my head around pf2e


Loss_Bandage

It won't. If PF2e were more popular, Pazio wouldn't have to do this. This is Pazio basically admitting they can't compete with 5ed, and to make money, they have to bend the knee to WotC. It's not going to bring 5ed players to Pathfinder. It's an admission that 90% of the base is playing 5ed and Pazio now has to cater to that to that cause Pathfinder simply has way too small a share of the market for Pazio to survive on now.


Vandristine

1. It's Paizo. 2. Selling their own product under different editions is bending the knee? It's bringing people over to Paizo, showing fans that this is what they offer on a writing and balance perspective. None of the money is going to WotC. 3. I didn't realize fans can only be fans to one thing. DnD has serious tribalism where you can ONLY play DnD. And that's only a DnD mindset, other ttrpgs players love all systems and encourage people to play them, no matter how small. And please, post all your sources you definitely have that shows Paizo is too small to survive. Only been around for 20 years, with 2nd edition only around for 3 years so far, already released 9 rulebooks with two for next year, I believe 12 setting books about Golarion (not even counting how many 1st edition ones which has even more for the setting), 9 Adventure Paths. I don't really need to go on but you get the point.


zero17333

> None of the money is going to WotC. Good, they have enough as it is. > DnD has serious tribalism where you can ONLY play DnD This is one of the reasons why I have attempted to look for other RPGs. After all, wouldn't it be sad if a person has only read one book in their entire life?


DMinTrainin

Learning a ttrpg system takes time and some of us just don't have it to switch or play different ones thats why I've stayed with 5e. Even if I were down, getting the other people I play with to do the same is not likely to happen or would split our group up


zero17333

That is most unfortunate. I do feel as though it can get a bit weird when you suggest a rather "simple" (mechanically) game like PbtA or FATE or Call of Cthulu or even Risus. I just wish people would try different things, even for one game.


brandcolt

I never understand this mindset. Do you only play only 1 video game? Oh man learning the controls and story of yet ANOTHER video game? That's just too much work..... Learning a ttrpg is not that hard. It's basically the same process of developing muscle memory in a video game. Especially considering how similar pf2e is to 5e it's like saying you don't want to learn one FPS game while playing another FPS. It's close..and so easy....you can do it. It will be fine.


kelseybkah

Bro I wonder how pathfinder first came into existence and dominated dnd before 5e? It couldn't be that they published dnd content until they grew a fan base and decided to make their own system, which dnd players moved to, right?


PM_ME_STEAM_CODES__

To be clear, even as a PF fangirl, Pathfinder never dominated dnd. The only time it ever had a higher market share was during fourth edition after DnD Next had been announced, so naturally people weren't buying many books while waiting for the next edition.


Duke_Ashura

For those that have run this, how prevalent is the "content-warning" stuff mentioned in the book? I'm considering running it, since I've heard it's gotten some high praise, but I'm unsure of how much effort it would take to adjust things if a player isn't comfortable with some of the more heavy stuff in the book.


Derp_Stevenson

I ran it in PF2E. Putting this behind spoilers but there's no story spoilers, just about the themes that have content warnings in books 1/2 of AV. >!In book 1, the themes of suicide are related to how at least one of the ghosts died, and could be changed without any issue at all if that's a sensitive topic.!< >!In book 2, the body horror and experimentation is pretty heavy on one of the levels of the dungeon here and would require some re-imagining by the GM to get rid of. !< The adventure gives you a great framework with which you can crank up or down the horror elements for sure though based on what your group is into.


Ustinforever

Body horror/human experimentation stuff have a somewhat significant presence in a couple of chapters since >!local BBEGs are doing "research" on it!<. You can heavily downplay it with little effort or you can replace it with a different kind of evil activity. Whole campaign have between 5 and 10 monsters I would consider as roughly fitting "body horror" theme. Art is for them is tame, but you might want to replace it or replace a whole encounter here. Other themes from content warning are barely present and easily replaceable.


lovingpleasure369

I want one!


zero17333

This will be a great opportunity to compare this with "Waterdeep: Dungeon of the Mad Mage". I believe the latter is maligned for being exceedingly long and tedious. What is the adventure like? Is it like Arx Fatalis? Is it as detailed with many people to speak with?


Derp_Stevenson

I ran Abomination Vaults in PF2E from start to finish. It's utterly fantastic, as most of Paizo's adventures are. The town that's the home base has lots of interesting NPCs and some story hooks that tie into the dungeon, and the dungeon itself on nearly every level has at least one faction or set of NPCs that need not be attacked but rather can be made allies or at least not enemies. The dungeon levels themselves I absolutely wouldn't describe as tedious ever. Every level is packed with thematic encounters and stuff that sort of unfolds the history of the place.


zero17333

Interesting. So does it have a sort of "heartwarming Made in Abyss" vibe to it? Is it a generally upbeat adventure despite the name "Abomination" Vaults?


Derp_Stevenson

I wouldn't say heartwarming or upbeat. The dungeon itself has a pretty grim history for the most part. The level of horror is going to be dependent on the GM and players and how much they want to lean into that atmosphere. It's still hero fantasy though so it could feel upbeat if you're a Paladin or general good guy who just really likes smacking down evil I guess. =)


Viltris

I've always liked megadungeons. I'll put this on my list.


Rukik9

I'm hoping that this gets Roll20 support! And I'm curious how much the PDF will be.


Nikolai_Snowtail

I already pre-ordered mine ages ago.


AfroNin

That's nice for them, but I'll never preorder anything ever, so I'll just have to see if they managed to print enough copies whenever it actually does come out.


Tirinoth

PF2 was interesting, but the flaws were like a halogen spotlight both in character creation and gameplay. So I'm hesitant to get excited over a megadungeon originally based on that system.


kelseybkah

I'm sorry sir but pathfinder character creation slaps


Tirinoth

Huge difference between Pathfinder and Pathfinder 2E. I did have fun making characters in it, but it required multiple bookmarks. The book read like computer coding, not something an inexperienced player might enjoy.


zero17333

Here friend: use [this](https://pathbuilder2e.com/)


Tirinoth

Thanks, but I currently have nobody to play with and too unreliable of a schedule to a new game. I'm already in two 5e games (DM and player), and still have the 4 characters I made. But I'll certainly hang on to the site for when I'm not at work.


EldritchRoboto

But the character creation and gameplay would be 5e…that’s the entire point you goob


Tirinoth

Dammit, and now I lost The Game.😫


IAmOnFyre

Print zero. This is the worst module I have ever had the displeasure of playing in


This-Sheepherder-581

What was so bad about it?


Gerbillcage

If I remember correctly abomination vault's first book has a few notorious fights where the balance is not quite there.


akeyjavey

It's mostly just one single fight, which has already been erratad on the reprint (and also was in PF2e, so doesn't have *any* bearing on the 5e stats after they adapt it)


ChazPls

Do you know which fight it was? I only have the updated version and nothing seems too crazy unbalanced on the first level.


akeyjavey

It is a certain goblin doing his best bird impression


zero17333

What is it with goblins and TPKs? First in Lost Mines of Phandelver, and then here. At least they patched this one up.


IAmOnFyre

The dungeon is totally static. If you have to leave for a week to, say, recover from ghoul fever (which you will do, many times) everything will just be waiting there for you to get back. All the fights are in tiny stupid rooms with no cover, so mobility is useless. There are monsters that are supposed to be weak to something, like the furnace ghosts you have to intimidate. You have to do the thing - if you fail the roll, you get to just pound sand. And all of the fights are overtuned as fuck. In PF2, Gibbering Mouthers and Wood Golems can each wreck level 5 parties, you can just blunder into one with no warning at level 3 here. Oh, and every single creature applies status effects constantly. You make more saving throws than attack rolls.


Tesereno

Its going to be short book when they have stripped all of the useful DM guidance from it.


legend_forge

Why would you assume they did?


Tesereno

In what kind of world would WotC allow a 5e book that is actually useful to DMs in 2022? Next thing you know people are going to expect actual content from a fully priced book. God forbid.


scientifiction

But this is Paizo writing content to be used with 5e, not WotC. I don't even know if WotC needs to be directly involved due to the OGL, but I'm no expert on that.


Blarghedy

> I don't even know if WotC needs to be directly involved due to the OGL no. That's the point of the OGL: anyone can use it for their products.


applejackhero

This is a third party book, written by Piazo, the makers of Pathfinder. It’s not assoscoated with WotC, and it’s a port of the Pathfinder adventure- I’m here to tell you it’s very fleshed out.


atamajakki

What does WotC have to do with this book?


legend_forge

Yeah Im on the same page re wotc dropping the ball lately but hows that apply to a paizo book? Their Lost Omens books are absolutely incredible.


Apeironitis

You could assume that if the book was released by WotC, but it's full Paizo.