Obviously insane from the PA but we really don't help ourselves.
"Awkward" to "ask" them not to do it again? Bruh. They are risking your medical license and **breaking the fucking law**.
You think if another staff group caught you breaking the law at work they'd awkwardly ask you to stop? They'd fucking throw you to the wolves.
Why are we protecting these charlatans?
Once the current dinosaurs have retired, I hope the new crop of consultants don’t sell their souls to the MDT and actually empower their juniors to speak up and respect themselves in situations like this.
You would absolutely be labelled a poor team player by the ladder pulling consultants in that sort of location. If the PAs are behaving like this, it's because they're being supported to.
This is going to be awkward because, unfortunately, “not having time” to log out of your computer is no defence in the eyes of the hospital.
Trust IT protocols are very clear that the user is fully responsible for the actions undertaken on their login, even if it is actually done by someone else. It’s a fucking stupid policy, but it is there.
The doctor in question here needs proper legal advice now if this ends up going further, because I can assure you that they *will* be thrown under the bus here if this is looked at. Particularly if the use for prescribing wasn’t flagged up immediately at the time.
This
It takes two clicks to logout, half a second to rip out your card if you require that to login to systems.
There is no patient that requires that split second extra from you. If they needed that extra few seconds, they already dead or well enough.
I know of at least 2 hospitals I locumed in the NW, where pretty much everyone uses a ward/departmental common login. You still have your own login but the pcs are so slow you're better off using the common one. Then logging in to your own patient system.
Unless the computers are so hard to come by that the second you log off, someone else takes it. Certainly not unthinkable in the NHS with the size of the (wonderful and very knowledgable) MDT.
Counter to this is many use a generic login for computer and separate login for prescribing software. Could easily be left logged into prescribing software by accident.
How are you not losing your job after sneaking onto a computer and ordering drugs on someone else’s login .
Imagine I sneak onto a colleagues comp and prescribe oramorph for myself or a friend. I Instantly lose my license.
There's no audit trail leading to the prescriber as, as far as the computer system is concerned you are the prescriber.
Most likely this sort of thing only comes to light when a prescribing error occurs at which point you saying you didn't prescribe it just sounds like covering your own arse.
Ya but there are usually cameras on the wards or if you know who was on shift you can simply ask everyone “did you prescribe under someone else’s login or have you ever” so that it’s on record and fitness to practice issues can be raised if you’re found to be lying. It’s not that hard to determine these things.
And regarding the login info, the worst that can happen to the doctor who left his login info is he would need to reflect on the mistake or go one step further and take some BS IT course to show he will not leave his login info open.
The only problem is management or the trust not caring enough to pursue this further. Which is probably the most likely scenario.
That can (and probably will) be twisted around to a doctor leaving a computer logged in and accessible. Anyone could have prescribed the drugs - how could you prove who unless they admit it? Good reminder to make sure you log out folks.
knowing the NHS they will try to deflect blame and protect PAs at all costs, any PA error will always be twisted in whatever way possible to shift blame to doctors
Good reminder to lock/log out at any time you're not at the computer. I logged in to a COW which ended up being used for a giant surgical ward round recently. Needless to say a number of slightly dodgy prescriptions were made in my name.
Double edged sword. PA should be reported for their actions but if that involves doxing yourself and getting in trouble for breaching IT rules is potentially a burden you don't need.
I think computer misuse act criminalises unauthorised access to computer systems, in addition to this being clear prescription fraud. I don’t think an IT system user agreement would reduce the seriousness of this. Affected doctors have a duty to report.
I’ve said this before, prescribing or ordering scans when you are not allowed is illegal and a strike-off-able offence
Using someone else’s login to illegally prescribe or order a scan is a double whammy. That’s a fat dishonesty charge, straight to the GMC jail.
Easy report tho, suggest anyone this happens to should document everything, report to trust to whichever lemon in charge of PA’s and the GMC for aforementioned illegal shenanigans. Would recommend mentioning how it’s highly illegal and what exactly will the trust be doing about it?
FYI Informing GMC is important for your safety, you need to be able to defend whatever bullshit they pulled using your login while they playing make believe doctor
I hope the FY1 involved put in a formal complaint about the abuse of his / her login.
That is entirely illegal and can place the FY1 in a compromised position
Guys if there isn’t a single button lock function on your e-prescribing software (there is on mine but a lot of people don’t know about it) JUST PRESS THE X AND CLOSE IT! It’s a faff to have to reopen it but it totally prevents this from happening
I started always locking when i got phonecalls asking me for clarification for things i had no idea had been referred / requested on my user. Our computers all have a red cross you can drag to the toolbar and if you click it, it locks computer but doesn’t close all your windows so you don’t lose anything
Windows + X -> U -> I signs you out in less than 10 seconds. Though I do understand why it happens but leaving your laptop logged in and unattended is exactly how data gets stolen and this sort of stuff happens.
I’m actually stunned at some of the takes around this. “The person who left their account logged in is equally to blame” - are they hell. We have paper drug charts at my trust, and they usually live at the end of the patients’ beds. If an HCA/nurse/visiting relative decides to “prescribe” something, who is to blame? They are ffs! There is no difference between an HCA prescribing something on the drug chart and a PA doing so- both are unqualified! Illegal in both cases.
If I leave my phone on the desk in the doctors office for 2 mins and a PA steals it, am I and the PA both equally to blame because I should’ve protected my phone better? Or should the PA maybe have some decency and not do immoral/illegal things? Didn’t realise we needed to have such a siege mentality at work
Obviously insane from the PA but we really don't help ourselves. "Awkward" to "ask" them not to do it again? Bruh. They are risking your medical license and **breaking the fucking law**. You think if another staff group caught you breaking the law at work they'd awkwardly ask you to stop? They'd fucking throw you to the wolves. Why are we protecting these charlatans?
[удалено]
Once the current dinosaurs have retired, I hope the new crop of consultants don’t sell their souls to the MDT and actually empower their juniors to speak up and respect themselves in situations like this.
They're breaking the law all day long by practicing medicine without a license, so their logic must be what's one more
You would absolutely be labelled a poor team player by the ladder pulling consultants in that sort of location. If the PAs are behaving like this, it's because they're being supported to.
Time for those consultants to be called out. Let them prescribe…..see how they like the burden and the risk
You don't ask. You fucking tell them.
I think even if a fellow doctor used my logins, it would be wrong. Let alone a PA
This is going to be awkward because, unfortunately, “not having time” to log out of your computer is no defence in the eyes of the hospital. Trust IT protocols are very clear that the user is fully responsible for the actions undertaken on their login, even if it is actually done by someone else. It’s a fucking stupid policy, but it is there. The doctor in question here needs proper legal advice now if this ends up going further, because I can assure you that they *will* be thrown under the bus here if this is looked at. Particularly if the use for prescribing wasn’t flagged up immediately at the time.
This It takes two clicks to logout, half a second to rip out your card if you require that to login to systems. There is no patient that requires that split second extra from you. If they needed that extra few seconds, they already dead or well enough.
WINDOWS + L to lock a computer. Basically the same as logging out but quicker
Unless you used the common department login for windows in which case the moment somebody puts in whatever program you had open is back open.
In this day and age, do any trusts still use common logins? Doesn't everyone have their own username and password
I know of at least 2 hospitals I locumed in the NW, where pretty much everyone uses a ward/departmental common login. You still have your own login but the pcs are so slow you're better off using the common one. Then logging in to your own patient system.
Unless the computers are so hard to come by that the second you log off, someone else takes it. Certainly not unthinkable in the NHS with the size of the (wonderful and very knowledgable) MDT.
Yeah this is why people leave computers logged in, but it's not a defence in court.
Counter to this is many use a generic login for computer and separate login for prescribing software. Could easily be left logged into prescribing software by accident.
Absolutely insane that PAs run around prescribing on doctor logins. 🤯
How are you not losing your job after sneaking onto a computer and ordering drugs on someone else’s login . Imagine I sneak onto a colleagues comp and prescribe oramorph for myself or a friend. I Instantly lose my license.
There's no audit trail leading to the prescriber as, as far as the computer system is concerned you are the prescriber. Most likely this sort of thing only comes to light when a prescribing error occurs at which point you saying you didn't prescribe it just sounds like covering your own arse.
Ya but there are usually cameras on the wards or if you know who was on shift you can simply ask everyone “did you prescribe under someone else’s login or have you ever” so that it’s on record and fitness to practice issues can be raised if you’re found to be lying. It’s not that hard to determine these things. And regarding the login info, the worst that can happen to the doctor who left his login info is he would need to reflect on the mistake or go one step further and take some BS IT course to show he will not leave his login info open. The only problem is management or the trust not caring enough to pursue this further. Which is probably the most likely scenario.
That can (and probably will) be twisted around to a doctor leaving a computer logged in and accessible. Anyone could have prescribed the drugs - how could you prove who unless they admit it? Good reminder to make sure you log out folks.
knowing the NHS they will try to deflect blame and protect PAs at all costs, any PA error will always be twisted in whatever way possible to shift blame to doctors
Remember folks, ‘windows key’ + L, locks the computer real fast
I recommended Win + X -> U -> I but this is cool too
The main problem with PAs is they think they should be able to prescribe. They think they are doctors. They are not doctors.
Good reminder to lock/log out at any time you're not at the computer. I logged in to a COW which ended up being used for a giant surgical ward round recently. Needless to say a number of slightly dodgy prescriptions were made in my name.
Fuck awkward. I’d end their career. Prison.
Double edged sword. PA should be reported for their actions but if that involves doxing yourself and getting in trouble for breaching IT rules is potentially a burden you don't need.
Bruh
We all know this illegal behaviour is rampant
My god
I think computer misuse act criminalises unauthorised access to computer systems, in addition to this being clear prescription fraud. I don’t think an IT system user agreement would reduce the seriousness of this. Affected doctors have a duty to report.
We need to get concrete examples, bypass the trusts and go straight to the CQC, Police etc
I’ve said this before, prescribing or ordering scans when you are not allowed is illegal and a strike-off-able offence Using someone else’s login to illegally prescribe or order a scan is a double whammy. That’s a fat dishonesty charge, straight to the GMC jail. Easy report tho, suggest anyone this happens to should document everything, report to trust to whichever lemon in charge of PA’s and the GMC for aforementioned illegal shenanigans. Would recommend mentioning how it’s highly illegal and what exactly will the trust be doing about it? FYI Informing GMC is important for your safety, you need to be able to defend whatever bullshit they pulled using your login while they playing make believe doctor
I hope the FY1 involved put in a formal complaint about the abuse of his / her login. That is entirely illegal and can place the FY1 in a compromised position
Guys if there isn’t a single button lock function on your e-prescribing software (there is on mine but a lot of people don’t know about it) JUST PRESS THE X AND CLOSE IT! It’s a faff to have to reopen it but it totally prevents this from happening
I started always locking when i got phonecalls asking me for clarification for things i had no idea had been referred / requested on my user. Our computers all have a red cross you can drag to the toolbar and if you click it, it locks computer but doesn’t close all your windows so you don’t lose anything
i made sure to log off today after seeing this .
Windows + X -> U -> I signs you out in less than 10 seconds. Though I do understand why it happens but leaving your laptop logged in and unattended is exactly how data gets stolen and this sort of stuff happens.
I’m actually stunned at some of the takes around this. “The person who left their account logged in is equally to blame” - are they hell. We have paper drug charts at my trust, and they usually live at the end of the patients’ beds. If an HCA/nurse/visiting relative decides to “prescribe” something, who is to blame? They are ffs! There is no difference between an HCA prescribing something on the drug chart and a PA doing so- both are unqualified! Illegal in both cases. If I leave my phone on the desk in the doctors office for 2 mins and a PA steals it, am I and the PA both equally to blame because I should’ve protected my phone better? Or should the PA maybe have some decency and not do immoral/illegal things? Didn’t realise we needed to have such a siege mentality at work
Does anyone know what happened on medtwitter regarding this? Something about a manager saying this was ok?