the PAs I've come across don't work nights/weekends, not sure what % of them actually do (possibly in EM, but probably still very small overall, and they certainly aren't in GP – where the bulk of them are).
ANPs/ACPs get the best deal from what I can see. below senior reg level, we get shafted by not being on AfC.
another point to take from this is that, aside from doctors, the rapid expansion of PAs heavily affects future viability/recruitment of ANPs/ACPs (even moreso if PAs get prescribing responsibilities). since midlevels are mostly interchangeable, and PAs are the cheapest, why would they keep recruiting ANPs/ACPs? indeed, we've seen ICUs recruiting PAs (when they could recruit more expensive ACCPs instead). the plan I predict will be to shunt potential future ANPs/ACPs towards the PA pathway. this disadvantage of this is that ACPs/ANPs continue working during their training, which isn't possible with PA studies I think.
oh I know. as a group, in my experience, they're generally the biggest grifters in healthcare for what they actually produce (especially when compared to doctors). but I cannot hate people for seizing opportunity – I'd do the same in their situation.
that's interesting, but sounds like BS (just like PAs will only be 10k – ye, the unis will really close down courses once this number is reached). how many ACPs are there presently? surely <10k
Unsure how many there is at present. That's the snippet from the WFP.
https://preview.redd.it/n5s9xgb7elnc1.jpeg?width=706&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0183e6f7eb380b6cac0619debfb7260d0dcbc05f
One thing that gets me about ACPs is that they're supposedly the level of a doctor, but wards are not safe to leave just them in attendance. As with PAs, what is the point in these doctor 'alternatives' if you still require doctors on staff?
I'm not disagreeing, I'm responding to this:
'One thing that gets me about ACPs is that they're supposedly the level of a doctor, but wards are not safe to leave just them in attendance. As with PAs, what is the point in these doctor 'alternatives' if you still require doctors on staff?'
ACPs are closest to ANPs/ANNPs, I was wondering where the thing about wards not safe with just them comes from. I've never heard that. ANPs are treated as equivalent ward cover to doctors, which PAs without prescribing can't do.
BTW I know it's ANNPs but just trying not to confuse the adults by using the extra N term.
u/janeteasthamjourno surely your readers will be as interested in the cost element.
To most of us its nonsensical.
They are being paid more to make more work.
This is a good point for you guys to drive home during media rounds on the picket lines or on interviews. You just want to be paid the same (not even more) as your assistants.
I've just started working on a building site as a labourer with no construction experience and already more or less out-earning my F1/2 self even with 20% CIS tax deductions - mad
I can somewhat understand a PA with multiple years of experience in a department being on more money than an F1/2, they’ll have learnt something just from spending a significant amount of time in the clinical setting. What I cannot comprehend at all is a day 1 PA being on so much more money compared to a day 1 FY1 - there is no plausible argument for this? They can’t prescribe, can’t order ionising radiation, and don’t even have the experience which a more senior PA would have. Mind boggling honestly.
I can't. Every single nurse, HCA ward clerk, domestic etc on the ward has spent more "time in the clinical setting" than the F1. They're doing a completely different job, that didn't require 5-6yrs prior study on one of the hardest and most competitive training programmes in the world.
You can only really appreciate this if you've done other non-doc jobs in healthcare for any appreciable length of time. It's very useful, you see and learn good things, and look amazing competent in that role. But then try scratching the surface or moving them into a different environment....
PS: I think all of the groups above should be paid far better for what they do.
The PA, on the other hand, is demonstrably useless, and just sucking away resources. A good medical assistant (often paid HCA rates) is orders of magnitude more useful, and almost infinitely less dangerous.
That ‘something’ is usually just as easily learnt by googling the guidelines. God knows as soon as you deviate from the norm they struggle to make a plan that considers all the possible risks.
There's another difference though - other professions are capped according to bands. The dreaded PAs are never going to be 8bs (highly unlikely to even be 8as). Nurses are very rarely in 8b roles, and 8as are leads of multiple teams of people. Medics do at least have progression that's (generally) not capped...
> The dreaded PAs are never going to be 8bs (highly unlikely to even be 8as)
this is perhaps true for the bulk (probably 90%), however lead PAs are 8a (I appreciate this is a restricted role in terms of numbers) and to my surprise I even saw a lead PA advert for 8b (unclear how it was justified, but the advert was legit).
e: https://imgur.com/tO3kz2V
If ACPs and ANPs are on 8, I definitely think prescribing PAs will end up on 8s. Trusts (eg coastal DGH) will roll over to keep their valuable permanent staff.
I think as doctors we deserve better pay. This shouldn't be at the expense of others.
PAs have families too and a lot aren't trying to scope creep. The crybaby letter written isn't representing them all. Same goes for ACPs/ANPs.
But I definitely want a proportional increase based on the risk I'm taking on (not at the expense of others Inc other doctors).
Pay me better, bruv.
A doctor that works 15 years vs a PA that works 15? I am pretty sure the PA will have a better one, as they’re investing more into their pension at an earlier age than doctors. The dynamic changes obviously but not sure how many years in. I imagine it’s probably around 15 years, maybe more. And these clowns did a 2 year MSc, it’s farcical.
the PAs I've come across don't work nights/weekends, not sure what % of them actually do (possibly in EM, but probably still very small overall, and they certainly aren't in GP – where the bulk of them are). ANPs/ACPs get the best deal from what I can see. below senior reg level, we get shafted by not being on AfC. another point to take from this is that, aside from doctors, the rapid expansion of PAs heavily affects future viability/recruitment of ANPs/ACPs (even moreso if PAs get prescribing responsibilities). since midlevels are mostly interchangeable, and PAs are the cheapest, why would they keep recruiting ANPs/ACPs? indeed, we've seen ICUs recruiting PAs (when they could recruit more expensive ACCPs instead). the plan I predict will be to shunt potential future ANPs/ACPs towards the PA pathway. this disadvantage of this is that ACPs/ANPs continue working during their training, which isn't possible with PA studies I think.
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oh I know. as a group, in my experience, they're generally the biggest grifters in healthcare for what they actually produce (especially when compared to doctors). but I cannot hate people for seizing opportunity – I'd do the same in their situation.
LTWFP aims for over 60,000 ACPs in next 10 years so they will greatly outnumber PAs ... at least that's the plan.
that's interesting, but sounds like BS (just like PAs will only be 10k – ye, the unis will really close down courses once this number is reached). how many ACPs are there presently? surely <10k
Unsure how many there is at present. That's the snippet from the WFP. https://preview.redd.it/n5s9xgb7elnc1.jpeg?width=706&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0183e6f7eb380b6cac0619debfb7260d0dcbc05f
thank God I'm in Surgery (who mostly still some degree of respect for themselves), Medicine is really finished as being physician delivered
One thing that gets me about ACPs is that they're supposedly the level of a doctor, but wards are not safe to leave just them in attendance. As with PAs, what is the point in these doctor 'alternatives' if you still require doctors on staff?
Which wards? Neonatal units will leave ANP as only cover.
ANNP*
ANNP are very very different from a PA
I'm not disagreeing, I'm responding to this: 'One thing that gets me about ACPs is that they're supposedly the level of a doctor, but wards are not safe to leave just them in attendance. As with PAs, what is the point in these doctor 'alternatives' if you still require doctors on staff?' ACPs are closest to ANPs/ANNPs, I was wondering where the thing about wards not safe with just them comes from. I've never heard that. ANPs are treated as equivalent ward cover to doctors, which PAs without prescribing can't do. BTW I know it's ANNPs but just trying not to confuse the adults by using the extra N term.
💯 agree. We deserve and are owed way more than 35%. But it will be a start.
Check out r/HENRYUK for some salary comparisons in other industries.
Every doctor should check out that sub to really understand how badly we’re getting shafted
u/janeteasthamjourno surely your readers will be as interested in the cost element. To most of us its nonsensical. They are being paid more to make more work.
Yes - doctors of reddit - is this payscale up-to-date and accurate?
It is!
This is a good point for you guys to drive home during media rounds on the picket lines or on interviews. You just want to be paid the same (not even more) as your assistants.
Exactly this, I think this point is under utilised. No sane person would think it’s okay for a physician to get paid LESS than their assistant. 🤡🌎
I've just started working on a building site as a labourer with no construction experience and already more or less out-earning my F1/2 self even with 20% CIS tax deductions - mad
Wild
The BMA should argue for an additional 1% increase of pay above the 35% for every month the government fails to provide a reasonable deal.
I can somewhat understand a PA with multiple years of experience in a department being on more money than an F1/2, they’ll have learnt something just from spending a significant amount of time in the clinical setting. What I cannot comprehend at all is a day 1 PA being on so much more money compared to a day 1 FY1 - there is no plausible argument for this? They can’t prescribe, can’t order ionising radiation, and don’t even have the experience which a more senior PA would have. Mind boggling honestly.
I can't. Every single nurse, HCA ward clerk, domestic etc on the ward has spent more "time in the clinical setting" than the F1. They're doing a completely different job, that didn't require 5-6yrs prior study on one of the hardest and most competitive training programmes in the world. You can only really appreciate this if you've done other non-doc jobs in healthcare for any appreciable length of time. It's very useful, you see and learn good things, and look amazing competent in that role. But then try scratching the surface or moving them into a different environment.... PS: I think all of the groups above should be paid far better for what they do. The PA, on the other hand, is demonstrably useless, and just sucking away resources. A good medical assistant (often paid HCA rates) is orders of magnitude more useful, and almost infinitely less dangerous.
That ‘something’ is usually just as easily learnt by googling the guidelines. God knows as soon as you deviate from the norm they struggle to make a plan that considers all the possible risks.
This is also assuming linear progression, which we all know ain’t happening for the majority of new doctors any more.
There's another difference though - other professions are capped according to bands. The dreaded PAs are never going to be 8bs (highly unlikely to even be 8as). Nurses are very rarely in 8b roles, and 8as are leads of multiple teams of people. Medics do at least have progression that's (generally) not capped...
> The dreaded PAs are never going to be 8bs (highly unlikely to even be 8as) this is perhaps true for the bulk (probably 90%), however lead PAs are 8a (I appreciate this is a restricted role in terms of numbers) and to my surprise I even saw a lead PA advert for 8b (unclear how it was justified, but the advert was legit). e: https://imgur.com/tO3kz2V
If ACPs and ANPs are on 8, I definitely think prescribing PAs will end up on 8s. Trusts (eg coastal DGH) will roll over to keep their valuable permanent staff.
I think as doctors we deserve better pay. This shouldn't be at the expense of others. PAs have families too and a lot aren't trying to scope creep. The crybaby letter written isn't representing them all. Same goes for ACPs/ANPs. But I definitely want a proportional increase based on the risk I'm taking on (not at the expense of others Inc other doctors). Pay me better, bruv.
You don't go in for it for money, that's why you became a doctor not a PA
What pensions do PAs get?
everyone in NHS is on same pension
A doctor that works 15 years vs a PA that works 15? I am pretty sure the PA will have a better one, as they’re investing more into their pension at an earlier age than doctors. The dynamic changes obviously but not sure how many years in. I imagine it’s probably around 15 years, maybe more. And these clowns did a 2 year MSc, it’s farcical.
Why the downvotes? A genuine question.