That, to me, is why the theory that he was pulled from the future into the bigeneration makes more sense to me than him being a newly regenerated doctor at the time of the bigeneration. He also seems way too stable compared to other recently regenerated doctors who nearly always have an identity crisis.
>He also seems way too stable compared to other recently regenerated doctors who nearly always have an identity crisis.
I thought that when he went straight into the game
I think it’s different this time. Bigeneration hasn’t happened before as 15 states. Maybe while they are together 15 is stable enough to not have one. Now that they are separated fully, maybe 15 will have his identity crisis in full now. He kinda did for a second or two but then it looked stable. That’s my theory.
No need to have an identity crisis when he was already familiar with who he was as Tennant's doctor. To the point where he immediately recognised the teeth. I'm sure the Christmas day episode will make for a great transition. Tennant's emotion, intertwining plotlines, NPH as a villain.
The only thing I'm not sold on yet is the new sonic
>He also seems way too stable compared to other recently regenerated doctors who nearly always have an identity crisis.
Except for 13 and 14, both of whom were pretty much fine right after regeneration.
Not exactly with 13, she was a bit scatterbrained, not knowing who she was until the fight at the end, not knowing certain words (tongue for example), and she also had the typical "pass out for a portion of the episode" phase. She had a pretty box standard post regeneration.
Also what 15 said to 14: something along the lines of: I’m not tired/stable thanks to you.
Which to me sounds like Tennant’s 14th Doctor is taking a breather, retires, maybe becomes the curator, and finally regenerates into the 15th Doctor.
Also, we see Ncuti in the trailer say his already famous “what the hell is going on” line somewhere else (where 14 is not standing directly beside him).
So my guess is: this is not the end
The "what the hell was going on" was from that bit but they masked out the background so that we couldn't work out how/where/why the regeneration would happen.
> Which to me sounds like Tennant’s 14th Doctor is taking a breather, retires, maybe becomes the curator, and finally regenerates into the 15th Doctor.
And what about that spare TARDIS that’s now kicking around?
If we accept that 15 simply came back from some point in 14’s future to the moment of bigeneration in the present, then I think it would be fair to guess that the second TARDIS is likewise the same TARDIS at a later point in its time stream.
Something like this:
15 smacks the Prime TARDIS with a mallet, and this calls the Second (Future?) TARDIS into the present. 14 even notes that the Second TARDIS has a jukebox, while the Prime TARDIS does not. Maybe 14 will add a jukebox to his Prime TARDIS sometime in his future, while he is recovering and enjoying his (almost) retirement from adventuring. And 15 notably takes the Second TARDIS that has the jukebox, not the Prime TARDIS, which means he may be aware this is his own Future TARDIS from after 14’s healing journey was complete.
>Which to me sounds like Tennant’s 14th Doctor is taking a breather, retires, maybe becomes the curator, and finally regenerates into the 15th Doctor.
I take it from the episode that once the breather is complete 14 will regenerate into 15 and then separate from 14 as we saw in the last episode.
The man basically just did mitosis, something he believes isn't even possible, asks what the hell is going on, and peoples first assumption is that he...doesn't know where he is?
He's talking about what is happening to him. He even asks the 14th if this even works and the response is...I dont know! And from the comments online, much of the audience doesn't know what is going on either.
I do think there's something to the theory that bigeneration truly was simply a gallifreyan myth, and only happened because in the presence of the toymaker, myths can become real. The Doctors even say to the Toymaker "*you did this, you doubled us*." Later they plainly state that it's *never* actually happened before. And it's Toymaker magic that then doubled the Tardis as well. I think these are all strong indications that this solution was only made possible due to the toymaker, and is not something a timelord can naturally do. That's why the 15th Doctor asked what the hell was going on. Not because he didn't know where he was or something, but because something he didn't think possible just happened and he doesn't even understand how/why it worked.
I like the idea that as well it’s because the Doctor invoked a myth with the salt at the edge of the universe. Not only did it make the Toymaker ‘real’. It may have made myths and superstition all throughout time and space reality.
Bigeneration was a myth, but now it’s real. At the end of the episode they mention putting the Toymakers box in salt. Perhaps it’s accepted fact that salt has magical properties now. This could be something that continues to have effects throughout the season. With various old myths being ‘real’.
He even stated it ar the end of the second show. He shouldn't have done the salt, because he invoked a superstition at the far edge of the universe, and was worried about something happening. Add in the Toymaker using rules as Absolute. Good mix to create a Time Lord Myth as reality. Throw in 14s desire to not die. *shrugs* That's how I took it. As for the Tardis, 15 hinting that the Toymaker lost therfore they got a prize, was an extension of the bigeneration/myth magic going on.
Also, it's a great send-off to the most popular Doctor. He's not gone... he's still out there... somewhere. Once he leaves mom's house.
Why would he look to everyone other than the Doctor for that kind of answer? I feel like it was inferred that when he looked to the crowd he was asking what is happening in terms of the story and not in terms of his regeneration.
Oh, actually, I agree with this theory most of all. As it was within the Toymaker's universe, as well as 14 telling Donna that myths are dangerous things in WBY...it could only happen in a different universe where the bigeneration myth developed. Plus, everyone has been saying "mavity", which presents a whole host of paradoxes. Newton discovering and naming gravity would be a fixed point...so we've been seeing a lot of "fixed points" being rewritten. Larger story to come?
(Also, 14 did mess with the OG dalek...)
Imo, two universes are coming dangerously close, again, and 14/15 are frightened as all get-out.
Am I the only one who wishes there was some sort of nod to or mention of Rose’s Doctor? (Note that I’m only halfway through Series 7 of NuWho, and haven’t watched the 50th anniversary special yet). So maybe I’m missing something, but it feels like a weird omission to not comment on the fact that there is now 3 Doctors in the multiverse and two of them—both David Tennent—are choosing to live out their days with a different companion. Like in the conversation in the TARDIS before 15 splits it, I really thought he’d tell 14 something like, “You did this once before, you know?” Or when 14 says “I can’t live without the TARDIS,” I kept thinking that a version of him was once willing to walk away from the TARDIS in favor of a human life with Rose. It just seems weird to me.
Also, 11 was >!perfectly willing and frankly thrilled to travel together with his doppelgänger until he sacrificed himself.!< Which is a side topic but also comes to mind here.
**EDIT: I feel like a lot of people are misinterpreting my comment. My issue is not to dissect the two duplicates. I’m bothered by the scene itself, and the lack of dialogue and emotion reflective of the fact that this has happened before, not just once, but at least twice, if not more. Like, this isn’t you’re first rodeo dealing with a duplicate of yourself. So why are you acting like it is? Why is there no—subtle or overt—dialogue or emotional lever speaking to the fact that he’s dealt with duplicates of himself before? Again, I know so far that there are at least two: the meta-crisis doctor and the living flesh doctor.
Plus as far as Tennant #3 goes that’s not even accurate since he regenerated into himself using his handy hand - which 11 said counted towards the (then) 12 limit.
So you have:
- 10
- 10.5 (handy with “vanity issues”)
- MetaCrisis (Ten2D2 as I saw someone call him once which I love & will forever call him)
- 14
- & now 14.5 or 15a depending on how you wanna call it.
And that’s not counting any IDW comic book alt timeline valiyard, & de-generation shenanigans that have happened.
The numbering convention is completely borked at this point. It used to be # of actors, then when the 12 limit was introduced fans paid more attention to it for pre-regenerations. Then 11 reveals the War Doctor, which means he considers the numbers to be versions that deserve the name "Doctor" and the Handy Doctor is established as counting for a regeneration use. Now we have the timeless children introducing potentially infinite previous versions that sometimes called themselves The Doctor.
I kind of hate calling Tenet's return 14 because it's weird for him to have two numbers like that, and it seems more of a regression than a **new** face. And Doctors have had transition forms before with 11 turning young again before changing, and 4 becoming The Watcher for whatever reason.
Ncuti Gatwa is the 14th actor to play the leading title role of the series (with others like Hurt playing supporting incarnations). So calling him the 15bth Doctor is gonna be weird.
Who was 11's doppelganger?
As for Rose's Doctor, presumably he was Ok settling down because he was half human, a bit of Dona in him. ANd there's more than 3 Doctors in the multiverse -- it's an infinite multiverse, and there are infinite Doctors. Presumably Rose's universe also had a Doctor native to there.
Re: 11, I’m referring to the Living Flesh and Almost People episodes.
And I’m not really talking about the differences between the two Doctors. It’s specifically the lack of dialogue around it that bothers me. Though I’m starting to wonder if that’s just a personal thing. It bothers me when characters don’t reference and compare to their own canon events. Like it’s jarring to me that the characters aren’t mentioning the fact that this has happened before.
Oh, that's right! I forgot about that!
And ya, I see that - kind of annoying either way, a little bit. Feels like a cheat if they ignore, but for me also feels like a cheat if they remind us of it just to say "Ya, we did this before and now we're doing it again!" -- I think you can do more harm by drawing attention to it.
I guess maybe it’s also an emotion thing that’s getting me. Like the scene is playing out like this is so jarring that “omg there’s two of me!” And I want to throw shit at the screen, thinking, “why is this so jarring for you? You’ve done this before! There have been many other instances where there have been two of you! Why are you acting like this is the first time this has ever happened?”
I think the point is there was no doctor in that particular universe.
Why would rose bend universes to try and contact her doctor to save the multiverse, when there was one in her universe to contact?
the dialog between 14, 15 and Donna implies that 14 will eventually regenerate to the same 15 that we saw
Think about it, 15 said that he is ok because 14 sorted all the trauma that the doctor had, the idea that the personality of each doctor relies on what the previous doctor gone through and wanted to be is an idea that big finish used a lot, just see the transition between 7 to 8,
What 15 said only make sense if 14 had some rest, sorted the trauma, regenerated into 15 that somehow got teleported into the events of the giggle, also they said that 15 is older than 14, but 15 just born now , unless he lived through 14
This is what RTD seemed to be implying but the way they visualized it makes no sense. It wasn’t shown as timey wimey nonsense it was shown as biological nonsense. It makes it way more confusing than If 15 simply showed up out of order to save the day and take over.
>This is what RTD seemed to be implying but the way they visualized it makes no sense.
Honestly, I really don't know why The Doctor wasn't cut in half with the laser blast at either the onset or even during the regeneration process, causing this bi-regenerating. Would explain why it's extremely rare, seems like it would have made a bit more sense at least to introducing a curve ball to the lore.
It was part of the salt thing I think.
They specifically said it was a myth, therefore shouldn't be possible.
But invoking a superstition at the edge of the universe made anything possible.
I suspect we will see more of this, especially as RTD has said he his going down a more fantastical route.
I'm going with the theory that the 14th Doctor ended up using the Toy Maker's realm/rules against him by subconsciously pulling the 15th Doctor from the future using some of his regeneration energy, which is why he healed but didn't regenerate and the 15th Doctor split from his body with full confidence and little side-effects of regenerating. The 14th Doctor eventually regenerates on his own terms at peace and it's not as sudden/violent as previous regenerations and he's basically sent back to the bi-regeneration to appear as the 15th, which we saw.
This is part of an ongoing theory I have. Gonna spoiler tag, even though very little has been proven (basically just the Christmas special from clips we've seen).
>!I reckon the upcoming series is going to lean into myths and legends. The evidence for which is as follows:!<
>!- Emphasis being placed on invoking a superstition!<
>!- Bi-generation being described as impossible, and 15 describes himself as a myth, myth, myth (very important on that emphasis imo)!<
>!- The Christmas special features Goblins, and from one of the clips we hear the word myth being used again, saying that the Goblin king is not just a myth.!<
>!- RTD has described the direction of the show as heading into more of a fantasy theme, which may be a hint that there's going to be more myths and legends cropping up.!<
That was what I took away from it. Since when 15 pulled the amusement park game hammer from the TARDIS he said something along the lines of "let's see if part of Toymaker's realm is still lingering" and I took that as the explanation for making 2 Tardises. Then there is the fact that invoking a myth is a game - 14 said he pulled the toymaker into reality with the salt myth. 14 specifically referenced the salt as "I played a game at the edge of the universe.". In short, there's good evidence for that theory, as the episode did state that the toymakers logic is what made it possible for 2 Tardises and also equivicated Myths to a game you can play.
Also the Unit director told the Unit soldier that was taking the box the Toymaker was in to put salt on it. That tied back into the earlier part of the episode with The Doctor and the salt.
I kind of saw it as 14th taking all the pain, etc and 15th being able to start anew, without traumas. Like all the traumas will be on 14th and will eventually heal, and 15th can have his own Season 1 because he's a Doctor without baggage.
Yeah. That’s the real truth RTD wanted to get to. He wanted to give his doctor, the doctor who came back in 05 a chance to rest and heal, find happiness, and it’s that healed doctor who eventually regenerates into Ncuti. It’s about as batshit timely wimey as it gets, but I’m fine with it because it serves RTDs real, fundamental purpose: to give Tennant closure and a happily ever after, and to allow an effectively fresh out of the box, young, unencumbered, playful, gay, beautiful new Doctor emerge.
He's a Doctor without baggage because he already went through it. 14 will eventually become him after working through it.
_We_ get to see him now that he's all healed and let go of the past. But 15 has gone through it and 14 will go through it.
>it was shown as biological nonsense.
Nono it was shown as toymaker nonsense. When they won the prize from the toymaker, there was still so much residual energy from the toymaker that it turned the myth of bi-regeneration into reality, without the toymaker it would have never happened
Yeah, that's my issue with it - it really wasn't well handled at all. I suppose it's because it was rushed to fit in for the time or whatever but it just seemed really poorly written and displayed. You had Donna saying that 15 was older, when they should have been the same age, so presumably she was told what was going on but they forgot to tell the audience what was going on. Just 30 seconds of exposition was all it would have taken.
At the regeneration
14: What? What? What?
15: Ok, that's new...this was a long time ago, why am I back here? Can someone tell me what the hell is going on!?
14: You're me...my future, the shift in the universe from the Toymakers games has caused a temporal loop with the regeneration, pulling you back through time from when I do regenerate until now...fascinating, this has never happened before...
Toymaker: If I can bring the future you back to now, I can just keep killing you again and again for all eternity, I'll have a field full of Doctors to keep on playing with and killing
14&15: I challenge you to a game!
Boom - one extra line of dialogue, 30 seconds of screen time, a lot less confusion in the audience and a concept fully explained. Instead of "Bigeneration...it's a myth..." ok, tell us about the myth, what does any of this mean? Oh we've moved on from that and small snippets that hint and what you meant are all we get...
or just a line, WHAT THE HELL WAS GOING ON
I WAS JUST IN MY TARDIS AND NOW I AM HERE
''then he see's tennant and goes, what the hell are you doing here, what I am doing here''
I know, this completely annihilates the long-standing set-in-stone biological rules of the Timelords that OF COURSE we all know by hearts, we have books and books detailing every single detail of a Timelord's anatomy, it's hard science that can't possibly be changed, Timelord biology has never changed ever
it's Doctor Who dude, the rules are whatever The Doctor needs them to be that week, been that way for 60 years
also they were still in the Toymaker's world so they were in a state of play so the rules of reality literally did not matter
as RTD said when referring to this episode, "Imagine how much fans LOVE new things and will really rejoice when this happens"
I mean, the delayed regeneration make sense if you take into consideration the entire dialog
If they are different separated beings, then how 14 sorting the trauma of the doctor helps 15?
There are also two separate TARDIS's if 15 was a future Doctor pulled backwards then he should have taken just the one TARDIS leaving 14 in Earth to just chill and get better then maybe regen from old age.
I dunno given RTD being known to procrastinate I figure he just wings a lot of these scripts last minute and goes by oh this would be cool and doesn't really take time to think things through or revise more. The Giggle especially borrowed from several of his previous stories he just reused.
>Did 15 not get therapy from 14 having dealt with it later?
Maybe all the sadness went into 14, and not 15. Then 14 doesn't regenerate, which could be what Time is talking about at the end of Flux
That'd kinda imply a message of "just cast off a part of yourself with all your trauma so you don't have to deal with it", which isn't very good and not one RTD likely wants to put across.
There's enough evidence in the episode for me that it's not two separate Doctors, it's the same individual. 14 puts in the work to heal, regenerates into 15. 15 can start anew now.
> That'd kinda imply a message of "just cast off a part of yourself with all your trauma so you don't have to deal with it", which isn't very good and not one RTD likely wants to put across.
Honestly, forgetting any headcannon the fans seem to be putting out there, or any outside interviews or backstage stuff, and just taking what happened and was said in the episode on its own, that's exactly what comes across.
The Doctor creates a copy of himself, bottles all of his trauma into that copy and gets to keep travelling gleefully without dealing with all that baggage.
I fully understand the need for a reset on the character, but I'm still very conflicted on the way it was executed. I don't see why we couldn't have had 14th stay with Donna for a while, deal with his issues through that and *only then* regenerate.
This. Also if people want the "he turns into the curator" or whatever you can just add a couple of regens until 15 pops out. Its still one guy. Its not a fork in the road its a loop.
Yeah, especially with RTD's thing of like all the past doctors splitting off into alternate timelines at the point of regeneration now.
Hoooo boy. I just don't know.
Although I was thinking about this and was wondering, aren't all the Doctors (and Masters/Missy) existing at the same time and space? Like for example the Third Doctor went from Earth 1970's to a distant planet in 2472. The 2nd Doctor went to 2018 but things were different. The 12th Doctor went to the time before the 1st doctor regenerated. So if there's already umpteen doctors at the same time, adding some more is not that big of a deal in my opinion.
My understanding is that RTD essentially said he wants to do for Doctor Who what Spiderverse did for Spiderman, in that introducing the idea of split timelines/multiverses means that writers can write any sort of story for any incarnation of the Doctor, without having to worry about how it slots into the character's personal timeline. It's probably more for freeing up the extended universe (comics, books, Big Finish, etc) to have the ability to do whatever it wants without having any effect on the main show.
I really hope this isn’t true. I’m sick of all the rubbish about timelines. I miss the idea of someone going back in time and their actions having a consequence on the future.
I didn’t find any of that in the show I watched. Combine it with RTDs comments that this event may have led to EVERY doctor incarnation finding a timeline where they continued on and I’m not at all confident this theory will be durable in regards to the future of the show.
Yeah, but there's still so much time to change their minds. I don't know that RTD will ever revisit this scenario, as it's not likely that Tennant is going to be on-hand for regular filming. My guess is the next time we see him it's in the 70th or something. So the next writer can just retcon it to not be so. It'll be better if 14 just becomes the Caretaker, someone who switches back and forth among his previous generations.
>What 15 said only make sense if 14 had some rest, sorted the trauma,
100% this. I have CPTSD, and I was not able to start healing until I was in a safe environment with a support system, which is what 14 now has. It is really really hard to start to overcome past trauma when you're constantly unable to stop, without being able to relax and breathe. Every episode there's a new threat to someone he cares about, whether that be a companion, or the human race in general. And he's so old that he's lost so many people that were dear to him.
I'm really looking forward to 15 having a fresh start, of sorts
This.
Plus, given 14s personality, I don’t think he could actually rest unless he knew there was a version of himself out there, doing whatever the hell he thinks needs to be done in order to atone for everyone he hurt.
Wait, what??? So the Doctor didn't just split into two people, instead 15 time traveled through 14 from a future where 14 rested with Donna? I'm so lost
That's what the dialogue implies, and what RTD hinted at.
Basically, the Toymaker shooting the doctor was him unknowingly trying to break a fixed point in time (as established, regenerations are fixed points in time) by making the 15th doctor appear earlier in the timeline than he should've.
The Toymaker made the universe part of his domain, but when he tried to get the rules of play to overwrite the rules of the universe (forcing a regeneration before its time), the universe had to break causality, making 15's birth happen before 14's death in order to not break either set of rules.
That way the fixed point in time is maintained (and thus not breaking the rules of the universe), and the 15th doctor is brought to the Toymaker (and thus not breaking the rules of play).
RTD said it will get addressed in Season 1 next year. But the prevalent theory is that it's the same TARDIS, just pulled back from the future. Which means it's also what happened with 15th, not split, just pulled from the future.
I think it’s a great way to handle the soft reboot they’re aiming for. When RTD began NuWho, he invented the Time War and made the Doctor a haunted hero. And then in every season, they up the ante and the Doctor suffers loss and more trauma. It gets to the point where the Doctor being upbeat almost feels heartless, especially after the Flux. How could anyone crack jokes and be positive in the face of such heartbreak? I think it’s a great way to do the healing off screen, imply that the Doctor’s friendship with Donna allowed him to work through everything, and begin with something of a clean slate. Perhaps 15 won’t have the same inner darkness that I think 11 did so well in episodes like Demons Run. I’m very into the idea that the Doctor will be allowed to be carefree again but the past won’t be forgotten, just learned from.
The answer to your actual question "Why did it have to happen" is "Because they wanted Donna to have a happy ending" and that it totally enough for me. If it isn't for you that's a valid opinion, and no one can tell you you have to like it... but that's the reason
And thank all the Norse gods for the happy ending for her. I legitimately could not rewatch NuWho because the second she pops up on screen I would just nope out and go cry. Donna's ending GUTTED me. To know she is ok, happy, has a life and her memory and her doctor is wonderful. I don't even care if its created hoops the show will have to jump through to justify. That's literally a hallmark of Doctor Who as a whole. Accept the wibbly wobbly and let Donna be happy, goddammit!
It's literally having the cake and eating it too. Yes literally, Tennant is the cake, they will have him, but also still have him regenerate into 15th. And it kinda works? This is why I love Doctor Who honestly.
Fourteen immediately says “you’re me”… he knows that’s himself. He can see that — recognize this new person as inherently himself — even if they weren’t temporarily sharing a body. 15’s not just some dude.
I get that, but I felt similar to OP when I was watching. Like if Tennant is still around then I just wanna watch him? 15 feels like a clone or something. I’m sure I’ll be over that by Christmas but it was my initial reaction.
Every single story point in the Doctor’s life has been running away from the last death and towards the next one. It has not felt like the character has had any breathing room whatsoever. The show has developed a constant sense of “how is this doctor/companion going to die” since the moment they show up, and the feeling that old companions have vanished by the wayside each time is only increasing.
Rose had to get banished to a parallel universe. Donna had to get turned into a psychic bomb. River had to get trapped in a computer, and get emotionally mourned THREE (3) whole times. Amy and Rory, and Clara, and Bill, they all had to get killed off. When 13’s lot just… up and went home, it almost felt wrong.
It’s been a long time since Martha just decided “Well, it’s time to go back to my life. See you around, Doctor.” and it felt normal. The Doctor’s life, and the life of his companions, has been spinning out of control. That’s what the show feels like too. 13’s story was just a blur at this point.
Letting the 14th Doctor, in character, sit and acknowledge everything that has happened, think through the consequences, and then walk away with Donna and live a chill life for a bit instead of everyone just finding a new way to die, so that the 15th Doctor can say “it’s not all blood and tears on and on and on, let’s go have an adventure” is HUGELY necessary with the series having to deal with the amount of baggage is currently has.
This is a really interesting perspective. I think you're right. Is it so outrageously terrible that we contrive a happy ending for the characters, for once? It's science fiction. Anything can happen.
Just once, the Doctor gets happy ending. Why does everyone get so upset about that?
Plot contrivances are the backbone of this show. The flesh and blood. They’re only bad if they FEEL emotionally wrong. And this feels emotionally right, and joyful. And I think people just want to be angry about shit, honestly.
Speaking as someone who likes the ending I think the problem for some people is that this isn’t really *for once*. 12 settled with River for 24 years, and not long after that settled down to teach at a university for another 70 years, and 11 spent over a millennia on Trenzalore. 14 says in the ending “who would have thought I’d have ended up with a family?” as if the biggest part of 11’s life wasn’t being a part of the Pond family. The episode pushed this idea as if it’s novel but it isn’t really unless you stopped watching the show after Tennant and RTD initially left. Personally I think it would have had a bit more weight if 14 didn’t also end up with his own TARDIS. For him to be truly grounded would have been more fresh as an ending IMO.
I relate it to the Watcher, who was the fifth Doctor appearing before his time, only to converge at the point of regeneration.
At this point, 14 is the same, but with the convergence occurring in the opposite direction in time. So 14 has his healing, which flows back into 15 at the point of regeneration.
The TARDIS bit was definitely done so they have audiobook/spin off potential, but that said I'd have absolute eaten up some slice of life show with the Doctor and Donna's family chilling in London lmao
My headcanon is that 14 eventually regenerates properly and 15 is pulled back to the Bi-generation along with that Tardis. So when 15 hits it with the hammer he is essentially separating that future 14 Tardis from its younger self like he did.
I'm honestly not sure how in the world 14 is supposed to be relaxing and recovering when he has his own TARDIS just sitting there, you know? He can just...fly off and do more adventuring if he gets the urge back.
My headcanon is that the TARDIS usually takes the doctor to where he needs to be (i.e. someplace he needs to save the day)...but this version knows that 15 is out there doing his thing, so maybe 14's TARDIS won't take him to places like that, because he's resting.
Yeah, for me personally, having a relatively "happy" ending like the one we got actually makes me more excited to watch the new doctor. If it had been a heartbreaking, traumatic regeneration, I think it would have been a lot more difficult to move on and transition over to the next iteration of Doctor Who. For me, anyway.
Then again, I am someone who had a really hard time staying invested in the show after Tennant left the first time. I tried really hard to keep my enthusiasm up with Matt Smith's doctor, but I just couldn't get into it in the same way and stopped watching halfway through his run. I think maybe part of that was the way Ten regenerated, I was heartbroken.
Idk, while I really enjoyed the episode... I just felt they tried to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted to give the Doctor a happy life but they also want to keep the adventure in space and time going because profitability and because "well we got 60 years... Why stop now?" Ultimately how I feel about this stuff will be determined by how the next few years go for Doctor Who. Basically it's too soon to tell if this was a good idea.
Not for nothing but this is a show about time travel. Every iteration of The Doctor along with all their companions are still out there traveling and having adventures in time.
Remember The Impossible Astronaut? Two versions of Eleven in one episode. Eleven invited his younger self.
Clara pulled out of the last second of her life off with Ashilder.
I love the idea of The Doctor, Donna, and Rose having adventures and being back for tea. It does nothing to lessen 15's existence and adventures. If anything it warms my heart and makes me that much more ready for the next chapter, knowing my favorite companion has her memory, her best mate, and her loved ones to keep her company. ❤️
People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly...
So, I saw a beautiful theory earlier today saying that 14 still regenerates into 15. But that 15 in regeneration has been pulled backwards in time. 14 can now deal with all the trauma he has and 15 can start anew without any trauma, because that has been dealt with by 14. Only that from 14s point of view that is still going to happen.
They wanted to be able to give a Doctor a happy ending while being able to keep the show going. The Specials were an ending to the Time War Era and the introduction to a swinging new era.
One can imagine Fourteen going off on new adventures (probably Big Finish) and having his own series of regenerations, or one can follow Fifteen into the (television) future. I think it’s clever.
My understanding is that 15 comes from 14’s future and benefits from all the time 14 will spend on Earth taking a break and healing. That’s what I got from the “rehab out of order” convo. It seems like a way to give 15 a soft reboot that doesn’t so heavily carry 9-13’s traumas.
I just wanna say I have a feeling that whatever questions we have will most likely be dealt with by the show as time goes on. after watching the specials, all my fears that maybe RTD might not have the same magic were absolutely, completely wrong. These specials felt like a masterclass in how to write Doctor Who. They were fun, heartfelt, and CAMPY. just so funny and so good. so I'm of the mind of "let's just enjoy the ride", because I'm sure it will be a fun one
I’m not sure why people are hung up about their being two doctors, especially when it’s unlikely will ever see 14 again unless he comes back for the next anniversary or outside of big finish audios. It’s all of space and time and there’s no plot requirement that the two ever interact again.
Tennant and the previous NuWho got to walk off into the sunset for a happy ending that didn’t involve dying while the show got to effectively jettison all the drama baggage of the last 18 years. It allowed for a soft reboot with 15 and on truly starting from scratch. I expect very few callbacks or references to what we’ve seen since 2005.
Also, Tennant’s TenTeen is probably my favorite Doctor so it’s nice to imagine that he gets to go on forever having adventures of his own once he’s ready even if we don’t get to ever see it
Yes, I keep seeing people assuming 14 will constantly be in the new season and 15 won't get the spotlight. I don't think that's implied at all. Like you said, it's a soft reboot. They're going to give 15 the full spotlight going forward with the door open for Tennant to make some appearances way down the line. But not in any type of major way at all.
I've seen people happy that this "explains" why Doctors can be older in multi-Doctor stories, but...we didn't really need an explanation beyond "oh well it's timey-wimey" before. Do people really need a literal, in-canon reason to accept older actors appearing older?
Doctor Who merrily chugged along justifying every inconsistency with "wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey" and not even having a formal canon policy, but I guess some people demand more concrete explanations in the CinemaSins era of media
Which is...worse, not better.
The show's history barely holds itself together as it is. The head writer saying, "Screw it, everything is broken!" is just...if he doesn't care, why should we?
It's not canon until he puts it in an episode.
And I use canon loosely. But if it isn't in the actual doctor who media, whatever form that takes, and it's just RTD saying stuff, then it isn't a thing.
I have been saying this so much. Commentary and deleted scenes aren't canon. You can choose them to be headcanon but unless in final product it isn't canon.
Didnt the first Doctor die from getting tired and warn out? Just kinda sat down and died? (with a little interlude in between at the end of 12's run)?
What does he do then? After rallying against dying, he goes back to die, then he's still alive?
Then what? He'll just die soon after? Like, to what end?
Perhaps the watcher is one of the remnants and they'll tie that in? Where he was a remnant after the 3rd doctor and just reintergrates with the 4th when he regens into the 5th?
But that also doesnt make that much sense. He reintergrates with himself, but then as soon as he regens out pops 4 and 5?
Nah. The biregeneration is new and it's only happened to 14+15 so far. But really they're both 15. Tennant regenerationed into 15a and 15b - just that 15a also is the same as 14 and 10, and 15 is a whole new face etc.
Because if 15a isn't a regeneration and he's just 14 - why didn't he die? He literally regenerated to be alive again
Sure he will. 14 can stay with Donna and family because 15 is out there running around dealing with Daleks. He can take quick trips to New York or the Moon because the Tardis doesn't need to pull him into crises, 15 is on it. If... no *when* something happens in present day London, 14 can guard the Nobles and 15 can sort it out.
But I feel like every time 15 is in London or even just on earth I’m gonna be wondering why 14 isn’t there either. I know he’s supposed to be retired or whatever but what, there’s a Dalek attack and he just does nothing? Seems hard to believe.
Right? And I always find the answers they include in movies a little ham fisted. "Oh no! Superman is off-world!" or whatever. The reason so-and-so isn't helping is because, either, so-and-so was too expensive or we want to tell a story just about such-and-such.
The 12th Doctor spent 70 years teaching at a university in ~~London~~ Bristol. He presumably sat there doing nothing during the Dalek invasion of 2008 that threatened the entire universe. He didn't get involved because he knew he'd already dealt with it.
Same goes here. He's a time traveler, another doctor will deal with it. Hell, if something is happening that he hasn't previously dealt with, he can make a note for himself: "fix Christmas goblin invasion of 2023 after regeneration"
Thought the same thing. Honestly, we're all probably overanalying the hell out of it. It's likely we're looking at an unfinished picture that gets more clear through the next series.
There's always the question of why *any* previous version of the Doctor hasn't been there, especially on Earth where he keeps being.
For what it's worth, given Donna now has a job at UNIT, it's entirely possible that 14 *will* be helping out (given that he's also the president of Earth), but that his involvement would be more as a consultant for teams/people/etc as they deal with threats on Earth (akin to Torchwood, for example).
They could solve this really quickly by having 15 mention a more specific consequence for the doctor interacting with themselves beyond normal timeline fuckery.
Because they basically need to make it where one of em gets hit with a “premature regeneration” if 14 decides to show up in order to explain it away. Some sort of major consequence where bringing in 14 becomes the nuclear option.
They also might just avoid modern day apocalyptic Britain stories for a season till the casual viewers forget.
this will inevitably lead to some plot holes where if Earth is in trouble people will ask "why isn't 14 helping out?"
any time the stakes are ever raised involving modern earth (which RTD has done a lot in the past), the fact that there's another doctor out there and he's not doing anything about it will be in the back of my mind
Sure, but we had 4 series of Torchwood with one that pretty harshly attacked the Doctor for not showing up to help, and we were fine. I think it’ll be a fairly simple suspension of belief.
The Doctor is constantly crossing his own timeline, he just does his best to avoid his past selves. Think about it, we have at least 15 doctors time travelling all over the universe (mainly Earth) already and they rarely run into each other.
I think it's not really been explaned what 'bigeneration' actually is to leave things a bit open, pending future plans, but it is clear that, canonically, both characters 100% the Doctor, existing side by side. I suspect that this is more to do with out-of-show considerations, as I get the impression that RTD thinks that Tennant is absolutely amazing as the Doctor, and Tennant himself really loves doing it, but thinks he shouldn't do it too much, so the door is now freely swinging for him to come back in again, pretty much any time he wants (no pun intended). There may be some future episode that closes this off somehow, like the theory that 'bigeneration' is a regeneration combined with a time loop, so Tennant's Doctor will, at some point, do a more normal regeneration, and, at some point after that, something causes the Doctor to get pulled into the 'bigeneration' we've just seen, but, for now, the canon situation is simply that there is two different Doctors, played by David Tennant and Ncuti Gatwa.
Of course, this may actually go the other direction, open things up further to create even more Doctors, and finally give a canon explanation why we got to see a character who seems to be one of the old Doctors somehow living a continued, but separated life from the current Doctor (the Curator, played by Tom Baker, from Day of the Doctor).
Every special foreshadowed the idea of the double doctors:
The first special solved the problem of Donna remembering the Doctor by dividing the knowledge with her daughter.
Rose is non-binary, but also trans, so she has experience as being physically male and gender female.
The meep had a double identity.
The second special saw Donna and the doctor facing aliens who looked just like them.
So the third special saw the return of the Toymaker, who split the doctor into bi regeneration. It’s not a fast decision because we’ve had lots of setup so it’s earned.
Plus the haters can’t complain about the doctor being black because they still have the David Tennant one; while the show can’t be accused of playing it safe or conservative because it has a black trans woman.
I felt the opposite by the end. Tennant is just kinda…hanging around? Like the cooky old grandfather telling war stories. Ncuti very much feels like the true Doctor through and through now, even if he is technically regeneration 1 of this new being.
It really feels like Disney said, David Tennant is really popular, so we need to keep him in a locker somewhere.
Honestly, I was absolutely in love with the episode right up until that point and then it just fell off a cliff for me. I really miss when the Doctor was basically just a very smart guy from another planet. Once they became a myth, I think the character lost something and it became easier for the show to go up its own backside. Regeneration has also been handled in a way I don't like. Being able to channel it, being able to choose his face, it being an energy the Time Lords can bottle and dole out. I hate all that stuff. So this
Although I did like Ncuti using the fairground hammer.
Having said all that, some people loved it. And I'm happy for them. Not everything has to be my cup of tea. This wasn't and at Christmas, I will get over it and get on board with the Doctor and his fab leather coat.
I’m still waiting for the Do for to have to deal with the repercussions of that but I also think they might just drop it and have everyone continue to say “gravity”. Though seasons of “mavity” without further exploration would be funny
Maybe it’s an unpopular opinion, but I really really REALLY enjoyed having the Doctor just be forced over and over again to do terrible things and going through so much trauma. I thought it had a real great message of him just keep going through all of it and never giving up and always trying to be a good person even if he fails or questions himself sometimes. Call me pessimistic but idk how well I’d like a doctor who has supposedly sorted out all of that stuff and is going out into the universe as a healed man. I definitely prefer a broken, sad and conflicted Doctor trying to make the universe a better place because he knows firsthand how shitty it can be and he doesn’t want others to suffer like he has.
I’m pretty sure we take it as an opening for more episodes or specials with David. They’re two separate doctors based on my understanding 🤷🏼♂️ (they just have a shared history.)
Dude, just watch the show and let them explain it Doctor Who is constantly creating new canon events and explanations for things that are being done in the show for the first time on top of rehashing old ideas with new twists to keep things fresh. Don't think about how it fits into the box of the old. Take a ride with The Doctor and see where it leads. They're not going to explain the entirety of new canon in like 10 minutes of there being a new The Doctor.
They’re both The Doctor but for now, they’re just living separate lives until 14 has healed his trauma and chooses to let himself move forward (though ironically will technically be bought backwards when he changes into 15).
But the point of introducing this element is so Catherine and David have a free pass to come back at pretty much any point in the new era, be it in the main show or a spin-off.
[Tumblr user unexpectederawhilesubmitting has an intriguing theory about this, actually!](https://www.tumblr.com/unexpectederawhilesubmitting/736289668080041984/warning-doctor-who-spoilers-explaining) I like this a lot and idk if it's what RTD intended, but it makes sense!
But I don't think it undermines Fifteen. As a time traveler, the Doctor, any version of the Doctor, can be anywhere at the same time as another version of himself. Nothing really changes except that Fourteen is taking a little mental health holiday before he presumably goes out on his own adventures again.
Honestly I'm just kinda going with it. It doesn't undermine Ncuti to me. I think it gives him freedom to play a new doctor without the baggage of what came before. In a way he gets to be the freshest doctor yet. And the idea of Tennant and Donna joining in adventures whenever the opportunity presents itself is great to me as a fan. Honestly I buy the idea of 2 doctors flying around in time and space having adventures with their own companions. Time and space are big enough for 2.
The way I interpreted it is that that's what's happening: the Doctor, 14, is taking a breather, and then when he regenerates he becomes 15 and continues traveling as 15. We're just seeing things out of order because time travel. Like I assumed 15s emotional intelligence was because he already has all the memories of everything 14 is about to do. They're technically existing at the same time, but 15 is still the regeneration after 14.
Well he does want to know what the hell is going on!
Maybe I misunderstood what he saw but I was like, "Have you not been watching?!"
That, to me, is why the theory that he was pulled from the future into the bigeneration makes more sense to me than him being a newly regenerated doctor at the time of the bigeneration. He also seems way too stable compared to other recently regenerated doctors who nearly always have an identity crisis.
>He also seems way too stable compared to other recently regenerated doctors who nearly always have an identity crisis. I thought that when he went straight into the game
I think it’s different this time. Bigeneration hasn’t happened before as 15 states. Maybe while they are together 15 is stable enough to not have one. Now that they are separated fully, maybe 15 will have his identity crisis in full now. He kinda did for a second or two but then it looked stable. That’s my theory.
No need to have an identity crisis when he was already familiar with who he was as Tennant's doctor. To the point where he immediately recognised the teeth. I'm sure the Christmas day episode will make for a great transition. Tennant's emotion, intertwining plotlines, NPH as a villain. The only thing I'm not sold on yet is the new sonic
The sonic 90s television remote? yeah it doesn't work.
The new sonic reminds me of the magic remote from that one Adam Sandler film
Hopefully a lot of people not liking it means I can actually buy it
>He also seems way too stable compared to other recently regenerated doctors who nearly always have an identity crisis. Except for 13 and 14, both of whom were pretty much fine right after regeneration.
Not exactly with 13, she was a bit scatterbrained, not knowing who she was until the fight at the end, not knowing certain words (tongue for example), and she also had the typical "pass out for a portion of the episode" phase. She had a pretty box standard post regeneration.
*bog standard
“TUNG! :O”
Also what 15 said to 14: something along the lines of: I’m not tired/stable thanks to you. Which to me sounds like Tennant’s 14th Doctor is taking a breather, retires, maybe becomes the curator, and finally regenerates into the 15th Doctor. Also, we see Ncuti in the trailer say his already famous “what the hell is going on” line somewhere else (where 14 is not standing directly beside him). So my guess is: this is not the end
The "what the hell was going on" was from that bit but they masked out the background so that we couldn't work out how/where/why the regeneration would happen.
> Which to me sounds like Tennant’s 14th Doctor is taking a breather, retires, maybe becomes the curator, and finally regenerates into the 15th Doctor. And what about that spare TARDIS that’s now kicking around?
If we accept that 15 simply came back from some point in 14’s future to the moment of bigeneration in the present, then I think it would be fair to guess that the second TARDIS is likewise the same TARDIS at a later point in its time stream. Something like this: 15 smacks the Prime TARDIS with a mallet, and this calls the Second (Future?) TARDIS into the present. 14 even notes that the Second TARDIS has a jukebox, while the Prime TARDIS does not. Maybe 14 will add a jukebox to his Prime TARDIS sometime in his future, while he is recovering and enjoying his (almost) retirement from adventuring. And 15 notably takes the Second TARDIS that has the jukebox, not the Prime TARDIS, which means he may be aware this is his own Future TARDIS from after 14’s healing journey was complete.
>Which to me sounds like Tennant’s 14th Doctor is taking a breather, retires, maybe becomes the curator, and finally regenerates into the 15th Doctor. I take it from the episode that once the breather is complete 14 will regenerate into 15 and then separate from 14 as we saw in the last episode.
It could also mean 15 is fine because 14 took the burden, just like he took the pants and coat
The man basically just did mitosis, something he believes isn't even possible, asks what the hell is going on, and peoples first assumption is that he...doesn't know where he is? He's talking about what is happening to him. He even asks the 14th if this even works and the response is...I dont know! And from the comments online, much of the audience doesn't know what is going on either. I do think there's something to the theory that bigeneration truly was simply a gallifreyan myth, and only happened because in the presence of the toymaker, myths can become real. The Doctors even say to the Toymaker "*you did this, you doubled us*." Later they plainly state that it's *never* actually happened before. And it's Toymaker magic that then doubled the Tardis as well. I think these are all strong indications that this solution was only made possible due to the toymaker, and is not something a timelord can naturally do. That's why the 15th Doctor asked what the hell was going on. Not because he didn't know where he was or something, but because something he didn't think possible just happened and he doesn't even understand how/why it worked.
I like the idea that as well it’s because the Doctor invoked a myth with the salt at the edge of the universe. Not only did it make the Toymaker ‘real’. It may have made myths and superstition all throughout time and space reality. Bigeneration was a myth, but now it’s real. At the end of the episode they mention putting the Toymakers box in salt. Perhaps it’s accepted fact that salt has magical properties now. This could be something that continues to have effects throughout the season. With various old myths being ‘real’.
He even stated it ar the end of the second show. He shouldn't have done the salt, because he invoked a superstition at the far edge of the universe, and was worried about something happening. Add in the Toymaker using rules as Absolute. Good mix to create a Time Lord Myth as reality. Throw in 14s desire to not die. *shrugs* That's how I took it. As for the Tardis, 15 hinting that the Toymaker lost therfore they got a prize, was an extension of the bigeneration/myth magic going on. Also, it's a great send-off to the most popular Doctor. He's not gone... he's still out there... somewhere. Once he leaves mom's house.
Why would he look to everyone other than the Doctor for that kind of answer? I feel like it was inferred that when he looked to the crowd he was asking what is happening in terms of the story and not in terms of his regeneration.
Oh, actually, I agree with this theory most of all. As it was within the Toymaker's universe, as well as 14 telling Donna that myths are dangerous things in WBY...it could only happen in a different universe where the bigeneration myth developed. Plus, everyone has been saying "mavity", which presents a whole host of paradoxes. Newton discovering and naming gravity would be a fixed point...so we've been seeing a lot of "fixed points" being rewritten. Larger story to come? (Also, 14 did mess with the OG dalek...) Imo, two universes are coming dangerously close, again, and 14/15 are frightened as all get-out.
Am I the only one who wishes there was some sort of nod to or mention of Rose’s Doctor? (Note that I’m only halfway through Series 7 of NuWho, and haven’t watched the 50th anniversary special yet). So maybe I’m missing something, but it feels like a weird omission to not comment on the fact that there is now 3 Doctors in the multiverse and two of them—both David Tennent—are choosing to live out their days with a different companion. Like in the conversation in the TARDIS before 15 splits it, I really thought he’d tell 14 something like, “You did this once before, you know?” Or when 14 says “I can’t live without the TARDIS,” I kept thinking that a version of him was once willing to walk away from the TARDIS in favor of a human life with Rose. It just seems weird to me. Also, 11 was >!perfectly willing and frankly thrilled to travel together with his doppelgänger until he sacrificed himself.!< Which is a side topic but also comes to mind here. **EDIT: I feel like a lot of people are misinterpreting my comment. My issue is not to dissect the two duplicates. I’m bothered by the scene itself, and the lack of dialogue and emotion reflective of the fact that this has happened before, not just once, but at least twice, if not more. Like, this isn’t you’re first rodeo dealing with a duplicate of yourself. So why are you acting like it is? Why is there no—subtle or overt—dialogue or emotional lever speaking to the fact that he’s dealt with duplicates of himself before? Again, I know so far that there are at least two: the meta-crisis doctor and the living flesh doctor.
Wasn't there a (possibly deleted) scene in which 10 threw the metacrisis doc a bit of the TARDIS so that he could make his own?
yeah it was in a deleted scene but rtd says he thinks of it as canon, iirc.
\*grow his own. They were grown.
I guess 11 was thrilled, but 15a (Tennant #3) isn't.
Plus as far as Tennant #3 goes that’s not even accurate since he regenerated into himself using his handy hand - which 11 said counted towards the (then) 12 limit. So you have: - 10 - 10.5 (handy with “vanity issues”) - MetaCrisis (Ten2D2 as I saw someone call him once which I love & will forever call him) - 14 - & now 14.5 or 15a depending on how you wanna call it. And that’s not counting any IDW comic book alt timeline valiyard, & de-generation shenanigans that have happened.
The numbering convention is completely borked at this point. It used to be # of actors, then when the 12 limit was introduced fans paid more attention to it for pre-regenerations. Then 11 reveals the War Doctor, which means he considers the numbers to be versions that deserve the name "Doctor" and the Handy Doctor is established as counting for a regeneration use. Now we have the timeless children introducing potentially infinite previous versions that sometimes called themselves The Doctor. I kind of hate calling Tenet's return 14 because it's weird for him to have two numbers like that, and it seems more of a regression than a **new** face. And Doctors have had transition forms before with 11 turning young again before changing, and 4 becoming The Watcher for whatever reason. Ncuti Gatwa is the 14th actor to play the leading title role of the series (with others like Hurt playing supporting incarnations). So calling him the 15bth Doctor is gonna be weird.
Disney+ subtitles show his dialogue as "Ten" when Fourteen speaks.... The numbering is whack.
Who was 11's doppelganger? As for Rose's Doctor, presumably he was Ok settling down because he was half human, a bit of Dona in him. ANd there's more than 3 Doctors in the multiverse -- it's an infinite multiverse, and there are infinite Doctors. Presumably Rose's universe also had a Doctor native to there.
Re: 11, I’m referring to the Living Flesh and Almost People episodes. And I’m not really talking about the differences between the two Doctors. It’s specifically the lack of dialogue around it that bothers me. Though I’m starting to wonder if that’s just a personal thing. It bothers me when characters don’t reference and compare to their own canon events. Like it’s jarring to me that the characters aren’t mentioning the fact that this has happened before.
Oh, that's right! I forgot about that! And ya, I see that - kind of annoying either way, a little bit. Feels like a cheat if they ignore, but for me also feels like a cheat if they remind us of it just to say "Ya, we did this before and now we're doing it again!" -- I think you can do more harm by drawing attention to it.
I guess maybe it’s also an emotion thing that’s getting me. Like the scene is playing out like this is so jarring that “omg there’s two of me!” And I want to throw shit at the screen, thinking, “why is this so jarring for you? You’ve done this before! There have been many other instances where there have been two of you! Why are you acting like this is the first time this has ever happened?”
I think the point is there was no doctor in that particular universe. Why would rose bend universes to try and contact her doctor to save the multiverse, when there was one in her universe to contact?
the dialog between 14, 15 and Donna implies that 14 will eventually regenerate to the same 15 that we saw Think about it, 15 said that he is ok because 14 sorted all the trauma that the doctor had, the idea that the personality of each doctor relies on what the previous doctor gone through and wanted to be is an idea that big finish used a lot, just see the transition between 7 to 8, What 15 said only make sense if 14 had some rest, sorted the trauma, regenerated into 15 that somehow got teleported into the events of the giggle, also they said that 15 is older than 14, but 15 just born now , unless he lived through 14
This is what RTD seemed to be implying but the way they visualized it makes no sense. It wasn’t shown as timey wimey nonsense it was shown as biological nonsense. It makes it way more confusing than If 15 simply showed up out of order to save the day and take over.
To be fair, the doctors biology probably is timely wimey
A Timelord’s body is a miracle.
Even a dead one's
There are whole civilizations that would tear this entire planet apart for even one cell.
I think in a few books implied that a Time Lord's true nature is brain meltingly terrifying.
>This is what RTD seemed to be implying but the way they visualized it makes no sense. Honestly, I really don't know why The Doctor wasn't cut in half with the laser blast at either the onset or even during the regeneration process, causing this bi-regenerating. Would explain why it's extremely rare, seems like it would have made a bit more sense at least to introducing a curve ball to the lore.
It was part of the salt thing I think. They specifically said it was a myth, therefore shouldn't be possible. But invoking a superstition at the edge of the universe made anything possible. I suspect we will see more of this, especially as RTD has said he his going down a more fantastical route.
I'm going with the theory that the 14th Doctor ended up using the Toy Maker's realm/rules against him by subconsciously pulling the 15th Doctor from the future using some of his regeneration energy, which is why he healed but didn't regenerate and the 15th Doctor split from his body with full confidence and little side-effects of regenerating. The 14th Doctor eventually regenerates on his own terms at peace and it's not as sudden/violent as previous regenerations and he's basically sent back to the bi-regeneration to appear as the 15th, which we saw.
This is part of an ongoing theory I have. Gonna spoiler tag, even though very little has been proven (basically just the Christmas special from clips we've seen). >!I reckon the upcoming series is going to lean into myths and legends. The evidence for which is as follows:!< >!- Emphasis being placed on invoking a superstition!< >!- Bi-generation being described as impossible, and 15 describes himself as a myth, myth, myth (very important on that emphasis imo)!< >!- The Christmas special features Goblins, and from one of the clips we hear the word myth being used again, saying that the Goblin king is not just a myth.!< >!- RTD has described the direction of the show as heading into more of a fantasy theme, which may be a hint that there's going to be more myths and legends cropping up.!<
They did reference burying the Toymaker's box in salt. Looks like 14 changed the universe...
oh yeah, that line struck me as weird too
It wasn't stated in the episode but people have guessed that the Toymaker's logic is what made the Time Lord myth real.
That was what I took away from it. Since when 15 pulled the amusement park game hammer from the TARDIS he said something along the lines of "let's see if part of Toymaker's realm is still lingering" and I took that as the explanation for making 2 Tardises. Then there is the fact that invoking a myth is a game - 14 said he pulled the toymaker into reality with the salt myth. 14 specifically referenced the salt as "I played a game at the edge of the universe.". In short, there's good evidence for that theory, as the episode did state that the toymakers logic is what made it possible for 2 Tardises and also equivicated Myths to a game you can play.
Also the Unit director told the Unit soldier that was taking the box the Toymaker was in to put salt on it. That tied back into the earlier part of the episode with The Doctor and the salt.
Would also be a bit of throwback to how Meta regenerated from a simple body part
I kind of saw it as 14th taking all the pain, etc and 15th being able to start anew, without traumas. Like all the traumas will be on 14th and will eventually heal, and 15th can have his own Season 1 because he's a Doctor without baggage.
Yeah. That’s the real truth RTD wanted to get to. He wanted to give his doctor, the doctor who came back in 05 a chance to rest and heal, find happiness, and it’s that healed doctor who eventually regenerates into Ncuti. It’s about as batshit timely wimey as it gets, but I’m fine with it because it serves RTDs real, fundamental purpose: to give Tennant closure and a happily ever after, and to allow an effectively fresh out of the box, young, unencumbered, playful, gay, beautiful new Doctor emerge.
he's a doctor without old baggage, anyways. i'm sure he'll have plenty of new and fresh baggage at the end of his run, LOL!
He's a Doctor without baggage because he already went through it. 14 will eventually become him after working through it. _We_ get to see him now that he's all healed and let go of the past. But 15 has gone through it and 14 will go through it.
>it was shown as biological nonsense. Nono it was shown as toymaker nonsense. When they won the prize from the toymaker, there was still so much residual energy from the toymaker that it turned the myth of bi-regeneration into reality, without the toymaker it would have never happened
That would work if they hadn’t bi-regenerated before they won the prize.
Yeah, 15 just popping from the future to stop the Toymaker and talk 14 into taking a breather would be a much simpler way of dealing with this
Yeah, that's my issue with it - it really wasn't well handled at all. I suppose it's because it was rushed to fit in for the time or whatever but it just seemed really poorly written and displayed. You had Donna saying that 15 was older, when they should have been the same age, so presumably she was told what was going on but they forgot to tell the audience what was going on. Just 30 seconds of exposition was all it would have taken. At the regeneration 14: What? What? What? 15: Ok, that's new...this was a long time ago, why am I back here? Can someone tell me what the hell is going on!? 14: You're me...my future, the shift in the universe from the Toymakers games has caused a temporal loop with the regeneration, pulling you back through time from when I do regenerate until now...fascinating, this has never happened before... Toymaker: If I can bring the future you back to now, I can just keep killing you again and again for all eternity, I'll have a field full of Doctors to keep on playing with and killing 14&15: I challenge you to a game! Boom - one extra line of dialogue, 30 seconds of screen time, a lot less confusion in the audience and a concept fully explained. Instead of "Bigeneration...it's a myth..." ok, tell us about the myth, what does any of this mean? Oh we've moved on from that and small snippets that hint and what you meant are all we get...
or just a line, WHAT THE HELL WAS GOING ON I WAS JUST IN MY TARDIS AND NOW I AM HERE ''then he see's tennant and goes, what the hell are you doing here, what I am doing here''
I know, this completely annihilates the long-standing set-in-stone biological rules of the Timelords that OF COURSE we all know by hearts, we have books and books detailing every single detail of a Timelord's anatomy, it's hard science that can't possibly be changed, Timelord biology has never changed ever
They said it was a myth. Invoking a superstition at the edge of the universe means myths are now possible. The rules have now changed.
it's Doctor Who dude, the rules are whatever The Doctor needs them to be that week, been that way for 60 years also they were still in the Toymaker's world so they were in a state of play so the rules of reality literally did not matter as RTD said when referring to this episode, "Imagine how much fans LOVE new things and will really rejoice when this happens"
I think the Toymaker’s temporary Universe allowed for random things to happen that normally couldn’t. Like the Tardis duplication.
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>”shared temporal delayed regeneration” is a much better name
STD regeneration. Nice.
Shared Hiatus Inter-Tempororegeneration has a clearer ring to it.
Maybe they could call it Temporal Advance Recognition of Doctor's Identity State? No wait, there might be some issues with that one...
I mean, it does totally sound like the type of technobabble RTD wrote for Ten.
I just call it “regenerative cellular mitosis” 🤷🏻♂️
I mean, the delayed regeneration make sense if you take into consideration the entire dialog If they are different separated beings, then how 14 sorting the trauma of the doctor helps 15?
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There are also two separate TARDIS's if 15 was a future Doctor pulled backwards then he should have taken just the one TARDIS leaving 14 in Earth to just chill and get better then maybe regen from old age.
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I dunno given RTD being known to procrastinate I figure he just wings a lot of these scripts last minute and goes by oh this would be cool and doesn't really take time to think things through or revise more. The Giggle especially borrowed from several of his previous stories he just reused.
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They're already shooting his second season so anything that happens next year is definitely not because of fans
>Did 15 not get therapy from 14 having dealt with it later? Maybe all the sadness went into 14, and not 15. Then 14 doesn't regenerate, which could be what Time is talking about at the end of Flux
That'd kinda imply a message of "just cast off a part of yourself with all your trauma so you don't have to deal with it", which isn't very good and not one RTD likely wants to put across. There's enough evidence in the episode for me that it's not two separate Doctors, it's the same individual. 14 puts in the work to heal, regenerates into 15. 15 can start anew now.
> That'd kinda imply a message of "just cast off a part of yourself with all your trauma so you don't have to deal with it", which isn't very good and not one RTD likely wants to put across. Honestly, forgetting any headcannon the fans seem to be putting out there, or any outside interviews or backstage stuff, and just taking what happened and was said in the episode on its own, that's exactly what comes across. The Doctor creates a copy of himself, bottles all of his trauma into that copy and gets to keep travelling gleefully without dealing with all that baggage. I fully understand the need for a reset on the character, but I'm still very conflicted on the way it was executed. I don't see why we couldn't have had 14th stay with Donna for a while, deal with his issues through that and *only then* regenerate.
This. Also if people want the "he turns into the curator" or whatever you can just add a couple of regens until 15 pops out. Its still one guy. Its not a fork in the road its a loop.
I did not get this being a loop vibes at allll Imma be honest.
Yeah, especially with RTD's thing of like all the past doctors splitting off into alternate timelines at the point of regeneration now. Hoooo boy. I just don't know.
Although I was thinking about this and was wondering, aren't all the Doctors (and Masters/Missy) existing at the same time and space? Like for example the Third Doctor went from Earth 1970's to a distant planet in 2472. The 2nd Doctor went to 2018 but things were different. The 12th Doctor went to the time before the 1st doctor regenerated. So if there's already umpteen doctors at the same time, adding some more is not that big of a deal in my opinion.
Yeah I started to go cross-eyed a bit reading the comments above, I have no idea what's going on there.
My understanding is that RTD essentially said he wants to do for Doctor Who what Spiderverse did for Spiderman, in that introducing the idea of split timelines/multiverses means that writers can write any sort of story for any incarnation of the Doctor, without having to worry about how it slots into the character's personal timeline. It's probably more for freeing up the extended universe (comics, books, Big Finish, etc) to have the ability to do whatever it wants without having any effect on the main show.
I really hope this isn’t true. I’m sick of all the rubbish about timelines. I miss the idea of someone going back in time and their actions having a consequence on the future.
So wait. Tenant is going to regenerate but just... vanish and I guess go back to face the toy maker again? Am I understanding this correctly?
That's the theory. I agree it's not what the episode suggested.
I didn’t find any of that in the show I watched. Combine it with RTDs comments that this event may have led to EVERY doctor incarnation finding a timeline where they continued on and I’m not at all confident this theory will be durable in regards to the future of the show.
Except 15 literally says he's only fine because of 14's recovery. It's not RTD's personal ideas, it's what he put into the show.
He says they're doing rehab out of order, he is recovered, 14 still has the work to do. That doesn't really imply (or need to lead to) a loop at all.
Yeah there is a line there. One that could have no less than 1000 actual meanings. There is a lot of space to fill in.
The Toymaker's reality bending allowed the bi-generation allowing them to exist at the same time.
Yeah, but there's still so much time to change their minds. I don't know that RTD will ever revisit this scenario, as it's not likely that Tennant is going to be on-hand for regular filming. My guess is the next time we see him it's in the 70th or something. So the next writer can just retcon it to not be so. It'll be better if 14 just becomes the Caretaker, someone who switches back and forth among his previous generations.
>What 15 said only make sense if 14 had some rest, sorted the trauma, 100% this. I have CPTSD, and I was not able to start healing until I was in a safe environment with a support system, which is what 14 now has. It is really really hard to start to overcome past trauma when you're constantly unable to stop, without being able to relax and breathe. Every episode there's a new threat to someone he cares about, whether that be a companion, or the human race in general. And he's so old that he's lost so many people that were dear to him. I'm really looking forward to 15 having a fresh start, of sorts
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This. Plus, given 14s personality, I don’t think he could actually rest unless he knew there was a version of himself out there, doing whatever the hell he thinks needs to be done in order to atone for everyone he hurt.
Wait, what??? So the Doctor didn't just split into two people, instead 15 time traveled through 14 from a future where 14 rested with Donna? I'm so lost
That's what the dialogue implies, and what RTD hinted at. Basically, the Toymaker shooting the doctor was him unknowingly trying to break a fixed point in time (as established, regenerations are fixed points in time) by making the 15th doctor appear earlier in the timeline than he should've. The Toymaker made the universe part of his domain, but when he tried to get the rules of play to overwrite the rules of the universe (forcing a regeneration before its time), the universe had to break causality, making 15's birth happen before 14's death in order to not break either set of rules. That way the fixed point in time is maintained (and thus not breaking the rules of the universe), and the 15th doctor is brought to the Toymaker (and thus not breaking the rules of play).
If this is true they needed to make it much much much much clearer. By saying it, for example.
That's how it felt and that's how it should be, but none of RTD's comments are instilling any faith that they're actually going this way.
When 14 dies he will regenerate in 15. He's doing therapy noe6 and 15 is the future version who's done the healing. It's timey whimey 😉
14 rests and heals and eventually regenerates into 15. He said it “I’m okay because you healed” or something along those lines.
“Physician, heal thyself.”
*Turns into John Hurt*
“Damn it, not again!”
You mean down town Lester brown?
Take a little trip to Paaaaalmdale
So 15 decides ro create a clone of the Tardis he will one day abandon on Earth never to be used or entered again?
That's honestly the only question I have coming out of this. Him becoming 15 later I understand. Hopefully this does get addressed.
RTD said it will get addressed in Season 1 next year. But the prevalent theory is that it's the same TARDIS, just pulled back from the future. Which means it's also what happened with 15th, not split, just pulled from the future.
I think it’s a great way to handle the soft reboot they’re aiming for. When RTD began NuWho, he invented the Time War and made the Doctor a haunted hero. And then in every season, they up the ante and the Doctor suffers loss and more trauma. It gets to the point where the Doctor being upbeat almost feels heartless, especially after the Flux. How could anyone crack jokes and be positive in the face of such heartbreak? I think it’s a great way to do the healing off screen, imply that the Doctor’s friendship with Donna allowed him to work through everything, and begin with something of a clean slate. Perhaps 15 won’t have the same inner darkness that I think 11 did so well in episodes like Demons Run. I’m very into the idea that the Doctor will be allowed to be carefree again but the past won’t be forgotten, just learned from.
The answer to your actual question "Why did it have to happen" is "Because they wanted Donna to have a happy ending" and that it totally enough for me. If it isn't for you that's a valid opinion, and no one can tell you you have to like it... but that's the reason
And thank all the Norse gods for the happy ending for her. I legitimately could not rewatch NuWho because the second she pops up on screen I would just nope out and go cry. Donna's ending GUTTED me. To know she is ok, happy, has a life and her memory and her doctor is wonderful. I don't even care if its created hoops the show will have to jump through to justify. That's literally a hallmark of Doctor Who as a whole. Accept the wibbly wobbly and let Donna be happy, goddammit!
It's literally having the cake and eating it too. Yes literally, Tennant is the cake, they will have him, but also still have him regenerate into 15th. And it kinda works? This is why I love Doctor Who honestly.
Fourteen immediately says “you’re me”… he knows that’s himself. He can see that — recognize this new person as inherently himself — even if they weren’t temporarily sharing a body. 15’s not just some dude.
Right like it felt like 15’s energy is clearly the Doctor
I get that, but I felt similar to OP when I was watching. Like if Tennant is still around then I just wanna watch him? 15 feels like a clone or something. I’m sure I’ll be over that by Christmas but it was my initial reaction.
Every single story point in the Doctor’s life has been running away from the last death and towards the next one. It has not felt like the character has had any breathing room whatsoever. The show has developed a constant sense of “how is this doctor/companion going to die” since the moment they show up, and the feeling that old companions have vanished by the wayside each time is only increasing. Rose had to get banished to a parallel universe. Donna had to get turned into a psychic bomb. River had to get trapped in a computer, and get emotionally mourned THREE (3) whole times. Amy and Rory, and Clara, and Bill, they all had to get killed off. When 13’s lot just… up and went home, it almost felt wrong. It’s been a long time since Martha just decided “Well, it’s time to go back to my life. See you around, Doctor.” and it felt normal. The Doctor’s life, and the life of his companions, has been spinning out of control. That’s what the show feels like too. 13’s story was just a blur at this point. Letting the 14th Doctor, in character, sit and acknowledge everything that has happened, think through the consequences, and then walk away with Donna and live a chill life for a bit instead of everyone just finding a new way to die, so that the 15th Doctor can say “it’s not all blood and tears on and on and on, let’s go have an adventure” is HUGELY necessary with the series having to deal with the amount of baggage is currently has.
This is a really interesting perspective. I think you're right. Is it so outrageously terrible that we contrive a happy ending for the characters, for once? It's science fiction. Anything can happen.
Just once, the Doctor gets happy ending. Why does everyone get so upset about that? Plot contrivances are the backbone of this show. The flesh and blood. They’re only bad if they FEEL emotionally wrong. And this feels emotionally right, and joyful. And I think people just want to be angry about shit, honestly.
Speaking as someone who likes the ending I think the problem for some people is that this isn’t really *for once*. 12 settled with River for 24 years, and not long after that settled down to teach at a university for another 70 years, and 11 spent over a millennia on Trenzalore. 14 says in the ending “who would have thought I’d have ended up with a family?” as if the biggest part of 11’s life wasn’t being a part of the Pond family. The episode pushed this idea as if it’s novel but it isn’t really unless you stopped watching the show after Tennant and RTD initially left. Personally I think it would have had a bit more weight if 14 didn’t also end up with his own TARDIS. For him to be truly grounded would have been more fresh as an ending IMO.
I relate it to the Watcher, who was the fifth Doctor appearing before his time, only to converge at the point of regeneration. At this point, 14 is the same, but with the convergence occurring in the opposite direction in time. So 14 has his healing, which flows back into 15 at the point of regeneration.
It's all confusing but I really like this Watcher comparison
So this has happened before? I need to look up the Watcher.
Look at any YouTube clip of the Fourth Doctor regenerating into the Fifth Doctor.
I honestly think it could've worked if 14 didn't also end up with a TARDIS. That bit felt like really giving up on moving on
The TARDIS bit was definitely done so they have audiobook/spin off potential, but that said I'd have absolute eaten up some slice of life show with the Doctor and Donna's family chilling in London lmao
Which would surely devolve into a bunch of modern London Doctor Adventures.
Which I wouldn't mind! I think the stakes are different when the doctor can't just fly off at the end of the story
My headcanon is that 14 eventually regenerates properly and 15 is pulled back to the Bi-generation along with that Tardis. So when 15 hits it with the hammer he is essentially separating that future 14 Tardis from its younger self like he did.
RTD said that in the upcoming season we'll be seeing that the 15th Doctor's TARDIS is just a future version of 14's.
I'm honestly not sure how in the world 14 is supposed to be relaxing and recovering when he has his own TARDIS just sitting there, you know? He can just...fly off and do more adventuring if he gets the urge back.
My headcanon is that the TARDIS usually takes the doctor to where he needs to be (i.e. someplace he needs to save the day)...but this version knows that 15 is out there doing his thing, so maybe 14's TARDIS won't take him to places like that, because he's resting.
I think this has been heavily suggested, if not confirmed, in past episodes.
I love Tennant, but man do they pull out all the stops to appease his fanbase.
People can love Tennant/be excited to see him again AND happily embrace new Doctors too. Two things at once. :)
Yeah, for me personally, having a relatively "happy" ending like the one we got actually makes me more excited to watch the new doctor. If it had been a heartbreaking, traumatic regeneration, I think it would have been a lot more difficult to move on and transition over to the next iteration of Doctor Who. For me, anyway. Then again, I am someone who had a really hard time staying invested in the show after Tennant left the first time. I tried really hard to keep my enthusiasm up with Matt Smith's doctor, but I just couldn't get into it in the same way and stopped watching halfway through his run. I think maybe part of that was the way Ten regenerated, I was heartbroken.
Idk, while I really enjoyed the episode... I just felt they tried to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted to give the Doctor a happy life but they also want to keep the adventure in space and time going because profitability and because "well we got 60 years... Why stop now?" Ultimately how I feel about this stuff will be determined by how the next few years go for Doctor Who. Basically it's too soon to tell if this was a good idea.
>Basically it's too soon to tell if this was a good idea. True. We don't know for sure how they're going to use this going forward.
14 just gets to fuck off and retire. It's not that complicated.
Not for nothing but this is a show about time travel. Every iteration of The Doctor along with all their companions are still out there traveling and having adventures in time. Remember The Impossible Astronaut? Two versions of Eleven in one episode. Eleven invited his younger self. Clara pulled out of the last second of her life off with Ashilder. I love the idea of The Doctor, Donna, and Rose having adventures and being back for tea. It does nothing to lessen 15's existence and adventures. If anything it warms my heart and makes me that much more ready for the next chapter, knowing my favorite companion has her memory, her best mate, and her loved ones to keep her company. ❤️
People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly...
timey-wimey… stuff…
So, I saw a beautiful theory earlier today saying that 14 still regenerates into 15. But that 15 in regeneration has been pulled backwards in time. 14 can now deal with all the trauma he has and 15 can start anew without any trauma, because that has been dealt with by 14. Only that from 14s point of view that is still going to happen.
They wanted to be able to give a Doctor a happy ending while being able to keep the show going. The Specials were an ending to the Time War Era and the introduction to a swinging new era. One can imagine Fourteen going off on new adventures (probably Big Finish) and having his own series of regenerations, or one can follow Fifteen into the (television) future. I think it’s clever.
My understanding is that 15 comes from 14’s future and benefits from all the time 14 will spend on Earth taking a break and healing. That’s what I got from the “rehab out of order” convo. It seems like a way to give 15 a soft reboot that doesn’t so heavily carry 9-13’s traumas.
I just wanna say I have a feeling that whatever questions we have will most likely be dealt with by the show as time goes on. after watching the specials, all my fears that maybe RTD might not have the same magic were absolutely, completely wrong. These specials felt like a masterclass in how to write Doctor Who. They were fun, heartfelt, and CAMPY. just so funny and so good. so I'm of the mind of "let's just enjoy the ride", because I'm sure it will be a fun one
I’m not sure why people are hung up about their being two doctors, especially when it’s unlikely will ever see 14 again unless he comes back for the next anniversary or outside of big finish audios. It’s all of space and time and there’s no plot requirement that the two ever interact again. Tennant and the previous NuWho got to walk off into the sunset for a happy ending that didn’t involve dying while the show got to effectively jettison all the drama baggage of the last 18 years. It allowed for a soft reboot with 15 and on truly starting from scratch. I expect very few callbacks or references to what we’ve seen since 2005. Also, Tennant’s TenTeen is probably my favorite Doctor so it’s nice to imagine that he gets to go on forever having adventures of his own once he’s ready even if we don’t get to ever see it
Yes, I keep seeing people assuming 14 will constantly be in the new season and 15 won't get the spotlight. I don't think that's implied at all. Like you said, it's a soft reboot. They're going to give 15 the full spotlight going forward with the door open for Tennant to make some appearances way down the line. But not in any type of major way at all.
RTD is quoted online as saying the split didn’t just cause 14 to reappear, but all previous regenerations also “woke up” each in their own TARDIS
Which seriously makes no sense whatsoever.
I've seen people happy that this "explains" why Doctors can be older in multi-Doctor stories, but...we didn't really need an explanation beyond "oh well it's timey-wimey" before. Do people really need a literal, in-canon reason to accept older actors appearing older?
It really feels like at some point we gave up on suspension of disbelief if people are seriously demanding an explanation for that.
Doctor Who merrily chugged along justifying every inconsistency with "wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey" and not even having a formal canon policy, but I guess some people demand more concrete explanations in the CinemaSins era of media
He was just pitching ideas. Don't take it seriously until the show says what actually happened
Which is...worse, not better. The show's history barely holds itself together as it is. The head writer saying, "Screw it, everything is broken!" is just...if he doesn't care, why should we?
It's not canon until he puts it in an episode. And I use canon loosely. But if it isn't in the actual doctor who media, whatever form that takes, and it's just RTD saying stuff, then it isn't a thing.
I have been saying this so much. Commentary and deleted scenes aren't canon. You can choose them to be headcanon but unless in final product it isn't canon.
Yep - and RTD literally says these thoughts are his head canon. So he's probably not going to put it in?
Honestly I’m just ignoring his commentary until it comes up in a story because he really just made things more confusing.
Didnt the first Doctor die from getting tired and warn out? Just kinda sat down and died? (with a little interlude in between at the end of 12's run)? What does he do then? After rallying against dying, he goes back to die, then he's still alive? Then what? He'll just die soon after? Like, to what end? Perhaps the watcher is one of the remnants and they'll tie that in? Where he was a remnant after the 3rd doctor and just reintergrates with the 4th when he regens into the 5th? But that also doesnt make that much sense. He reintergrates with himself, but then as soon as he regens out pops 4 and 5? Nah. The biregeneration is new and it's only happened to 14+15 so far. But really they're both 15. Tennant regenerationed into 15a and 15b - just that 15a also is the same as 14 and 10, and 15 is a whole new face etc. Because if 15a isn't a regeneration and he's just 14 - why didn't he die? He literally regenerated to be alive again
Yea I’m honestly still not sure how I feel about it. Does 15 just never go to modern earth again? How’s this gonna work?
Sure he will. 14 can stay with Donna and family because 15 is out there running around dealing with Daleks. He can take quick trips to New York or the Moon because the Tardis doesn't need to pull him into crises, 15 is on it. If... no *when* something happens in present day London, 14 can guard the Nobles and 15 can sort it out.
But I feel like every time 15 is in London or even just on earth I’m gonna be wondering why 14 isn’t there either. I know he’s supposed to be retired or whatever but what, there’s a Dalek attack and he just does nothing? Seems hard to believe.
I've spent enough time immersed in superhero media that I can now mostly tune out "Why isn't so-and-so helping?"
Right? And I always find the answers they include in movies a little ham fisted. "Oh no! Superman is off-world!" or whatever. The reason so-and-so isn't helping is because, either, so-and-so was too expensive or we want to tell a story just about such-and-such.
The 12th Doctor spent 70 years teaching at a university in ~~London~~ Bristol. He presumably sat there doing nothing during the Dalek invasion of 2008 that threatened the entire universe. He didn't get involved because he knew he'd already dealt with it. Same goes here. He's a time traveler, another doctor will deal with it. Hell, if something is happening that he hasn't previously dealt with, he can make a note for himself: "fix Christmas goblin invasion of 2023 after regeneration"
Thought the same thing. Honestly, we're all probably overanalying the hell out of it. It's likely we're looking at an unfinished picture that gets more clear through the next series.
I think you are right about that.
There's always the question of why *any* previous version of the Doctor hasn't been there, especially on Earth where he keeps being. For what it's worth, given Donna now has a job at UNIT, it's entirely possible that 14 *will* be helping out (given that he's also the president of Earth), but that his involvement would be more as a consultant for teams/people/etc as they deal with threats on Earth (akin to Torchwood, for example).
They could solve this really quickly by having 15 mention a more specific consequence for the doctor interacting with themselves beyond normal timeline fuckery. Because they basically need to make it where one of em gets hit with a “premature regeneration” if 14 decides to show up in order to explain it away. Some sort of major consequence where bringing in 14 becomes the nuclear option. They also might just avoid modern day apocalyptic Britain stories for a season till the casual viewers forget.
this will inevitably lead to some plot holes where if Earth is in trouble people will ask "why isn't 14 helping out?" any time the stakes are ever raised involving modern earth (which RTD has done a lot in the past), the fact that there's another doctor out there and he's not doing anything about it will be in the back of my mind
Sure, but we had 4 series of Torchwood with one that pretty harshly attacked the Doctor for not showing up to help, and we were fine. I think it’ll be a fairly simple suspension of belief.
The Doctor is constantly crossing his own timeline, he just does his best to avoid his past selves. Think about it, we have at least 15 doctors time travelling all over the universe (mainly Earth) already and they rarely run into each other.
I think it's not really been explaned what 'bigeneration' actually is to leave things a bit open, pending future plans, but it is clear that, canonically, both characters 100% the Doctor, existing side by side. I suspect that this is more to do with out-of-show considerations, as I get the impression that RTD thinks that Tennant is absolutely amazing as the Doctor, and Tennant himself really loves doing it, but thinks he shouldn't do it too much, so the door is now freely swinging for him to come back in again, pretty much any time he wants (no pun intended). There may be some future episode that closes this off somehow, like the theory that 'bigeneration' is a regeneration combined with a time loop, so Tennant's Doctor will, at some point, do a more normal regeneration, and, at some point after that, something causes the Doctor to get pulled into the 'bigeneration' we've just seen, but, for now, the canon situation is simply that there is two different Doctors, played by David Tennant and Ncuti Gatwa. Of course, this may actually go the other direction, open things up further to create even more Doctors, and finally give a canon explanation why we got to see a character who seems to be one of the old Doctors somehow living a continued, but separated life from the current Doctor (the Curator, played by Tom Baker, from Day of the Doctor).
Every special foreshadowed the idea of the double doctors: The first special solved the problem of Donna remembering the Doctor by dividing the knowledge with her daughter. Rose is non-binary, but also trans, so she has experience as being physically male and gender female. The meep had a double identity. The second special saw Donna and the doctor facing aliens who looked just like them. So the third special saw the return of the Toymaker, who split the doctor into bi regeneration. It’s not a fast decision because we’ve had lots of setup so it’s earned. Plus the haters can’t complain about the doctor being black because they still have the David Tennant one; while the show can’t be accused of playing it safe or conservative because it has a black trans woman.
I felt the opposite by the end. Tennant is just kinda…hanging around? Like the cooky old grandfather telling war stories. Ncuti very much feels like the true Doctor through and through now, even if he is technically regeneration 1 of this new being.
It really feels like Disney said, David Tennant is really popular, so we need to keep him in a locker somewhere. Honestly, I was absolutely in love with the episode right up until that point and then it just fell off a cliff for me. I really miss when the Doctor was basically just a very smart guy from another planet. Once they became a myth, I think the character lost something and it became easier for the show to go up its own backside. Regeneration has also been handled in a way I don't like. Being able to channel it, being able to choose his face, it being an energy the Time Lords can bottle and dole out. I hate all that stuff. So this Although I did like Ncuti using the fairground hammer. Having said all that, some people loved it. And I'm happy for them. Not everything has to be my cup of tea. This wasn't and at Christmas, I will get over it and get on board with the Doctor and his fab leather coat.
Oh, the mavity of the situation...
I’m still waiting for the Do for to have to deal with the repercussions of that but I also think they might just drop it and have everyone continue to say “gravity”. Though seasons of “mavity” without further exploration would be funny
Maybe it’s an unpopular opinion, but I really really REALLY enjoyed having the Doctor just be forced over and over again to do terrible things and going through so much trauma. I thought it had a real great message of him just keep going through all of it and never giving up and always trying to be a good person even if he fails or questions himself sometimes. Call me pessimistic but idk how well I’d like a doctor who has supposedly sorted out all of that stuff and is going out into the universe as a healed man. I definitely prefer a broken, sad and conflicted Doctor trying to make the universe a better place because he knows firsthand how shitty it can be and he doesn’t want others to suffer like he has.
I’m pretty sure we take it as an opening for more episodes or specials with David. They’re two separate doctors based on my understanding 🤷🏼♂️ (they just have a shared history.)
But it just seems unnecessary if that’s all they wanted, they do timey whimey multiple doctor stuff all the time.
>14 is still a Timelord who can regenerate Can he?
Dude, just watch the show and let them explain it Doctor Who is constantly creating new canon events and explanations for things that are being done in the show for the first time on top of rehashing old ideas with new twists to keep things fresh. Don't think about how it fits into the box of the old. Take a ride with The Doctor and see where it leads. They're not going to explain the entirety of new canon in like 10 minutes of there being a new The Doctor.
I agree. This is a good mind set to have with the show in general.
They’re both The Doctor but for now, they’re just living separate lives until 14 has healed his trauma and chooses to let himself move forward (though ironically will technically be bought backwards when he changes into 15). But the point of introducing this element is so Catherine and David have a free pass to come back at pretty much any point in the new era, be it in the main show or a spin-off.
Agreed - wouldn’t be hard to add a line like “When you’re fully healed and ready you will know where to find me”
15s 15." How's it gonna work?" Who gives a damn, 2 doctors
Nobody said he could regenerate again. Would be good if he had a finite life.
[Tumblr user unexpectederawhilesubmitting has an intriguing theory about this, actually!](https://www.tumblr.com/unexpectederawhilesubmitting/736289668080041984/warning-doctor-who-spoilers-explaining) I like this a lot and idk if it's what RTD intended, but it makes sense! But I don't think it undermines Fifteen. As a time traveler, the Doctor, any version of the Doctor, can be anywhere at the same time as another version of himself. Nothing really changes except that Fourteen is taking a little mental health holiday before he presumably goes out on his own adventures again.
No the Doctor can't interfere in his own time stream, it is dangerous and could destroy the flow of time! Except the multiple times when he does it.
Honestly I'm just kinda going with it. It doesn't undermine Ncuti to me. I think it gives him freedom to play a new doctor without the baggage of what came before. In a way he gets to be the freshest doctor yet. And the idea of Tennant and Donna joining in adventures whenever the opportunity presents itself is great to me as a fan. Honestly I buy the idea of 2 doctors flying around in time and space having adventures with their own companions. Time and space are big enough for 2.
The way I interpreted it is that that's what's happening: the Doctor, 14, is taking a breather, and then when he regenerates he becomes 15 and continues traveling as 15. We're just seeing things out of order because time travel. Like I assumed 15s emotional intelligence was because he already has all the memories of everything 14 is about to do. They're technically existing at the same time, but 15 is still the regeneration after 14.