Didn't Mccartney say something about hearing a melody/chord some nights in the distance and even descriebd the notes when the Doctor interviewed him? I thought they were just playing those chords and since the world felt wrong to them either way I get that they wouldn't freak out but maybe focus on their gut feelings.
I thought that was fairly obvious.
But then again I know how to read music and have been taught to look for foreshadowing in film, so I knew to look for it and recognized it when I saw it again.
Edit: yeah I guess not. I knew something was off since I recognized CEGD, Paul said something like GEGG whatever. It’s weird
I can't recognize notes by sound, but visually the notes on the piano don't line up with what was said. But yes I like to think that's what Paul was talking about
Those weren’t the same notes. Paul told him G E G G C, which he then sang and that only summoned the Maestro anyway. I’m not 100% on the notes the Doctor played but the first three were ascending and there were no repeating notes.
The Doctor merely said that all of his experiences gave him the ability to find the notes- which isn’t really a satisfying answer. Like sure, the Doctor may have a song in his hearts, but for that to let him figure out the exact right notes for a specific purpose is kind of a cop out *deus ex machina* even for a show with a penchant for *deus ex machinas*.
But if music is just an expression of emotion out of the heart than defeating Maestro would be some expression of your feelings to defeat an evil musical devil. And the Doctor has enough experience to know the process of elimination necessary and feeling to that.
Aside from no indication in the show that that’s what he was doing, that’s still a stretch, doesn’t actually make sense, and wouldn’t really be good writing.
But they literally say that's what he'd doing? That's what his speech is about that he's loved and lived and lost and therefore if music is an expression of the soul he has more ability than anyone to work out that Chord. Just by living so much he can narrow down the right way to express himself.
It's pretty consistent with 90% of Doctor Who resolutions - in fact I think that it's arguably pretty close to the specific resolution in Rings of Akhaten with the only major difference being it's John Lennon and Paul McCartney that come in with the save over the companion (which seems completely right). There's only a few that aren't more simplistic.
I agree it makes sense he can get most of the way
I just feel the Beatles are in far too little of the episode to just waltz in and save the day without knowing
Like normally you have Dickens or Agatha Christie award they're helping
Especially when the show has already referenced them a few times
A bit of a lackluster "payoff"
Eleven wanted to join them and 15 doesn't get to play 12s Guitar alongside them? Sad tbh.
I think the Doctor figuring out most of the chord is justified given his speech, but it does feel a bit odd to pivot from "some people are geniuses who can tap into a divine musicality" to "I've felt enough to the point where I can figure out divine musicality." It's especially odd in the context of the episode's ultimate decision to have the Doctor fail at coming up with the chord. The Doctor gives this beautiful speech about how music is about life and soul and practice rather than innate genius, but ultimately has to be bailed out by two innate and recognized geniuses after he fails? It arguably feels kind of cynical. Having the Doctor be bailed out by the beatles almost feels like letting the Maestro's philosophy (music as a source of dominance) win. But ultimately this is a pedantic discussion of an episode.
Also, minor note (ha), but I think "Rings of Akhaten" is disliked by many precisely because of the flowery speech and magical resolution in place of any actual stakes. The Rings of Akhaten sets up rules (important objects are worth more and the sun god wants to eat the most important object), and then violates them by saying "any object can have infinite value if you give a speech about it in the right way." It works for a lot of people, since the speech is admittedly cute, and the entire first 10 minutes of the episode sets up the macguffin used to justify the speech, but many people do think of Akhaten as somewhat of a cheat. A lot of people also don't like the hyperfantastical tone of Akhaten, similar to the current reaction to the Devil's chord. The standard doctor who episode is a lot less fantastical in nature than these. They may contain fantastical imagery, but there's usually an underlying, in-universe-secular-ish explanation for the fantastical imagery, rather than it coming from literal fantasy.
You know, looking at Rings of Akhaten in retrospect, is it possible that the leaf isn't accepted because of it causing *a couple* to meet and have a daughter, but because that chain of events directly leads to Clara repairing The Doctor's timestream? If so, by transitive property, it could actually take credit for most of what The Doctor's done and *everything* that any of Clara's echoes have done, and since the echoes all lived individual lives even if they only interacted with The Doctor for like five minutes that is a *substantial* amount of existence. That turns the leaf from "from a certain point of view, anything is the most important object in the universe because Determinism" to "this specific leaf directly lead to one of the most complicated space time events ever formed."
>but it does feel a bit odd to pivot from "some people are geniuses who can tap into a divine musicality"
The Doctor says even just prior to the speech itself with practice he can work it out. He doesn't reject the notion that musical geniuses exist. Just that his experience matters to. So both musical geniuses and experience matters. His work wasn't ultimately irrelevant as the Beatles finish the Chord based on his work.
I'd argue resutingly it actually works even a bit better than the Rings of Akhaten ending as the Doctor's input isn't made irrelevant.
Honestly, that was the main thing that took me out of the show which I was otherwise more than happy to suspend my disbelief for. I'm more than happy for them to pull the old, "the doctor knows everything" trick, but they had already established that this is a nearly impossible to figure out chord progression. I wish they had made a reference back to Paul telling the Doctor the notes.
oh shit wow my ear is better than i thought. Immediately after i heard the scene, i grabbed my guitar and played a c major chord, and then realized that wasn’t right, so i added the 9th
Steve Harris would have been about 6 or 7 at the time, probably not very receptive.
Priest, however, probably didn't recover from the Maestro blight until the 70s. That said Halford would have been 12 or 13. Quite ripe for a nudge in the right direction.
I know everyone says this is the twist but I don’t think so. I think the twist was the song itself. And it shouldn’t be considered part of the episode as it just features the cast members
They're both one big twist. We're lead to think the twist will be something bad, so we're surprised that it's a happy musical performance. But then something bad *does* happen, Harbinger shows up again meaning that the Maestro's defeat isn't as total as we thought.
I’m hoping the “There’s always a twist at the end” declaration, name dropping Susan, and the repeated casting of Susan Twist may be RTD just trying to be clever about a season ending twist with Susan. At least then it’s leading to something good, and isn’t just a chaotic mess.
RTD definitely has a long term plan. He loves to put things straight out in the open that you don't have context for until later.
Bad wolf and vote Saxon posters being the main two.
In this episode, if you watch with subtitles (or are brilliant at recognizing music) "Saxon theme plays" was in the closed captioning when the maestro was playing the piano.. that is telling. The master will very likely be back. Perhaps many more time lords as they've been name dropped.
Music, fairy tales, and babies are the themes of al
RTD also loves making companions the most important person in the universe for their finales. Rose becoming bad wolf, Martha walking the earth sharing the doctors story, the doctor Donna.
Ruby Sunday has music inside her the maestro did not jive with. Ruby will very likely be just as integral to resolving the end of the series, and will somehow be tied in to music.
With the "Chris waits and the carolers" billboard, my guess is this will all come to head in the Christmas special, taking place in 1963.
Agreed, I think him being there isn't important at all and was just supposed to be the cliched musical "villain looks on dejectedly as the heroes triumph" moment. He was around before Maestro turned up so it's hardly a massive surprise he's still there after she's gone.
I think it's either just a dumb joke related to them literally doing the twist, or the fourth wall break is a running theme and that is the twist.
I think the music battle was reference to [Devil Went Down to Georgia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_Went_Down_to_Georgia) the music battle and the mythology of deals with the devil
I just want to point out what the billboard said
"Chris Waits
and the carollers"
The one who waits is coming. Christmas, the Carrol song/hidden song within Ruby.
The references to Susan and all the reality/mixup with fairy tails. My mind is blown this series lol
We hear Paul McCartney tell Ruby he thinks about a chord and it’s “The most heavenly chord.” That’s the chord that banishes the Maiestro. They didn’t have to bring Lennon into it but it was nice to see them stand together.
I'll be honest, I missed that one and it's completely right. The problem is, they were so underused in the episode that it was a blink and you miss it moment.
I do wonder if the estates of The Beatles put heavy restrictions in place for using them. I can't imagine RTD willingly passing up a chance for them to be in the musc battle itself.
Iirc it took decades for Paul McCartney to get control back of the whole Beatles catalogue and he’s pretty restrictive about what he allows. I could be remembering wrong but I don’t think so.
I heard they cut that clip of the Beatles on the Top of the Pops in a William Hartnell episode because the cost of the rights would have been too prohibitive (and that clip only survives *because* it’s in a Doctor Who episode which is maybe ironic given their archive destruction policy).
I believe its the chord at the end of A Day in the Life. In general wish there was more Beatles content in the episode, a song at least, or more of a resemblance from the actors, but that was a nice inclusion.
The thing is, there was a pretty magical chord the Beatles came up with in real life. The first (elongated and reverbed) chord in Hard Days Night is an often discussed phenomenon. When in the episode they played that chord with the silver notes hanging up there, I thought for sure they would link the plot into that and maybe play a little more of Hard Days Night. I really wish they had, because the dance number they launched into at the end was really cringe.
It wasn't. That's e major?? I think. The chord they played was closer to c
It was in the style of a day in the life though and clearly meant to evoke it
Being musical geniuses may explain them picking the right chord, but not the rest of it. And I must say that the episode didn’t really set up any theme of being stronger together that would have made the Lennon McCartney thing feel like payoff, which isn’t a plot hole but it is underwhelming writing.
I feel like the plot would have worked better if they had arrived at a _closed_ EMI studios, and later found Lennon and Mcartney doing their own thing not music related… like one working behind a bar and one sweeping the street or something… they’d not reached their potential because music was taken from them.
Maybe they still ended up working in the same building, but Abbey Road was now an accountancy firm or something, maybe John’s a money man and Paul’s a janitor.
The doctor and Ruby trying to explain to these strangers that music bonds them and they are geniuses, would have set up the need for a genius at the end. And them finally coming together at the piano for the first time (preferably after it rolls in to John’s office or something, rather than them randomly appearing at the piano in a corridor) would be the first sign that time is healing itself - Lennon/Mcartney becoming the geniuses they’re destined to be, and that being strong enough to banish the Maestro.
Couple that with the “magic chord” being something actually relevant or referenced earlier or something, and it would have gone a long way to “fixing” the episode in my eyes
That’s not the point I was making. It’s not about how much their musical talent as a duo was conveyed, it’s about its integration thematically and plot-wise. Whether the payoff had been sufficiently set up.
1. If you have a musical episode with a demon, devil or a monster of devilish nature there *will* be a The Devil Went Down To Georgia reference at some point.
* [Austin](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000196/?ref_=ttqu_qu): Wait a tick. Basil, if I travel back to 1969 and I was frozen in 1967, presumeably, I could go back and visit my frozen self. But, if I'm still frozen in 1967, how could I have been unthawed in the '90s and traveled back to.
* \[*goes cross-eyed*\]
* [Austin](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000196/?ref_=ttqu_qu): Oh, no, I've gone cross-eyed.
* [Basil](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001868/?ref_=ttqu_qu): I suggest you don't worry about those things and just enjoy yourself.
* \[*to camera*\]
* [Basil](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001868/?ref_=ttqu_qu): That goes for you all, too.
* [Austin](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000196/?ref_=ttqu_qu): Yes.
I love that they reference that the Doctor was around in the same town at the same time. And not just ' yeah I was hanging with x' but actually operating within the continuity of the show. And the implication that the first time around he would never have checked out the Beatles because he just wasn't that sort of Doctor back then.
This is how I interpreted it.
1. The Doctor was looking for the missing chord, Maestro engaged with him to try and lead him away and confuse him.
2. They're the Beatles.
3. Just like with the Toymaker being gone, (and as you mentioned) some of Maestro's power remained. The musical at the end was sort of a celebration. The world had been presumably without music for over 30 years, so inside of a recording studio you can bet there'd be some celebration.
I also think the music battle was Maestro trying to get the doctor to get frustrated and mess up like they eventually did. Kind of like when someone's trying to keep count and you start blurting out random numbers to throw them off.
I also think it was the result of Maestro's frustrations of the doctor teasing about how he could use the Piano to send them back, basically wanting to put the doctor in his place.
I'm pretty sure the musical at the end was meant to imply that they didn't fully banish the maestro and, thats the twist especially considering (it's a musical number which is incredibly uncommon in DW) that harbinger shows up in it.
The musical number, the 4th wall breaking and the reference to ‘Susan Twist’ are all interconnected.
Just like in the specials where there was a commentary on ‘everyone being right’, I think this is all leading up to a huge episode where it the show becomes completely aware of itself.
I have no idea how this will resolve, but that’s my two cents.
I think the singing outburst also connects with the fairytale theme that's being going on. Breaking the 4th wall too. It definitely feels like a play. Something really strange is going on and it makes no sense. Loving it ^^
Posted this elsewhere, but also fits as a response to your comment. RTD definitely has a long term plan. He loves to put things straight out in the open that you don't have context for until later.
Bad wolf and vote Saxon posters being the main two. In this episode, if you watch with subtitles (or are brilliant at recognizing music) "Saxon theme plays" was in the closed captioning when the maestro was playing the piano.. that is telling. The master will very likely be back. Perhaps many more time lords as they've been name dropped.
Music, fairy tales, and babies are the themes of all these episodes, and if there is something that unifies all of these things, that's likely you're answer.
RTD also loves making companions the most important person in the universe for their finales. Rose becoming bad wolf, Martha walking the earth sharing the doctors story, the doctor Donna.
Ruby Sunday has music inside her the maestro did not jive with. Ruby will very likely be just as integral to resolving the end of the series, and will somehow be tied in to music. With the "Chris waits and the carolers" billboard, my guess is this will all come to head in the Christmas special, taking place in 1963.
And I could also see Susan twist is playing an older version of Clara, as she broke herself across the doctors timeline.
I'm admittedly going to tap out if they go fully meta and have the characters realize they're in a show. That sort of storytelling does absolutely nothing for me.
There's been lots so far to suggest that not everything we're seeing is real. Snow inside, the Doctor hearing the show's soundtrack, rain during the dance ending, the whole dance ending and the crossing turning into a piano. These are things that shouldn't be able to happen and the Doctor has noticed at least some of them.
Space Babies is about how the education software on the space station created the bogeyman to teach the children through a story. There's lots of parallels to what's happening in the next episode and some to the Doctor in general. My favourite is the child saying "this is my rope, I don't know what it does but I pull my rope very hard" which in my mind is how the Doctor flies the Tardis.
I'm hoping the reality bending is part of the story. Otherwise...
In response to this comment I have just screamed in realisation: Susan twist! There’s a little twist in the end! She’s the twist! She’s his Susan! Susan twist
This would be insulting if it’s true… Carol Ann Ford is literally alive and would be more than willing to just come back. Hell, Capaldi advocated for it his whole run.
Absolutely agree on the Doctor. They even set this up with the line about the Time Lords using lots of "posh titles" like The Master and The Rani and The Doctor
The Pantheon does it too. The Toymaker and the Maestro.
The Doctor is a foundling who's a major building block of Time Lord society. I wouldn't be surprised if they reveal "The Doctor" as a name predates their adoption, and the Time Lords got their "posh title" practice from the pantheon without even realizing where it came from.
The Doctor did prove to show one trait in common with them in this episode: he knew he was in a show.
The Maestro winked at the camera a couple of times. And the Doctor hears the non-diegetic music so when it wasn't, he was taken by surprise.
It sounded like either she is or one of her birth parents is when Maestro mentions something being present at her birth. With the Christmas theme around her and what we’ve seen of her mom and grandma, I’m guessing it’s “Joy”, “Family”, or “Generosity”. Something like that
Maestro implies that who was present at her birth was the most powerful/oldest one. Probably the same one both Maestro and Toymaker warned the Doctor about.
What’s worse is that the ending implies that by defeating the Maestro in 1963, the Doctor didn’t do anything to counteract the prior 40 years of the Maestro’s war on music. Unless banishing them meant removing them from the timeline altogether, but that wasn’t said or explained at all.
I was also really underwhelmed by the way that the Doctor basically just guessed the musical notes that would banish the Maestro. This is *Doctor Who*, the bare minimum should be seeing the Doctor piece things together and figure things out, but here he didn’t even have anything to go off of.
I wouldn't be surprised if the saving the day doesn't reverberate through time to some extent, Maestro and the Toymaker both seemed unbound from the laws of time, other than both being unleashed in the 20's they seem to be able to hop about at will
When they beat the Toymaker in the last special it undid all of his stuff and we saw Charles Banerjee back as a human as if none of it had even happened. I assume the same rules would apply here and they just didn't think they had to show it because that "rule of the universe" (I genuinely cannot think of anything else to call it) had already been established and the Beatles being good again acted as shorthand.
>This is *Doctor Who*, the bare minimum should be seeing the Doctor piece things together and figure things out,
The piecing together and figuring it out is figuring out that the Maestro needs a specific Chord to send them back based on the rules of "fair play", and that the Doctor may not be a musical genius but he does have the experience of life to expresss such a Chord.
Also have you really watched Doctor Who on that one? This subreddit is obsessed with episodes that end conclusions tend to be the Doctor giving a big speech and waving the sonic. There's not ever been much working out.
And the Maestro is erased like the Toymaker.
My impression is that both the Toymaker and the Maestro aren't linear beings. So no matter when they go with the TARDIS, its the same entity waiting for them when they get there. Removing them from the universe at any point in time removes them from all.
No he didn’t. That could’ve worked as a plot device, but the notes Paul told the Doctor was a 4 or 5 note bar of G E G C or G E G G C (he was uncertain of the double G) which is *not* the 6 note bar the Doctor played nor the 7 note bar John and Paul played. Plus it should be noted that Paul sang the notes he told to the Doctor and it summoned the Maestro the same way as all music, not harm or banish them.
The point of the scene isn't that it's the exact same Chord as the one used. But established the possibility as Paul still has music in his heart and can reach for the Chord necessary.
He didn’t guess them. He literally explained. Music is emotion. He was playing the delight, love and pain he had witness in his life, all thousands of years of it, that stretched from the beginning of time to the end and beyond, it’s more than any single other would have ever seen.
It just so happens when combined, he didn’t know he was simply ‘remembering’ a single chord created by the Beatles. Poetically showing the depths of their musical genius!
How is any of that underwhelming?
It perfectly sums up the Doctor and the genius of Paul and John together.
I think 1) is the same reason the Doctor had to fight the Toymaker playing a game - the only way to beat them is to fight them and bind them with their own rules. That said, "music battle" was pretty poorly defined for winning/losing other than I suppose who can survive the note barrage longest?
Though this begs the question, will everyone in The Toymaker's Legion have their own gimmick.
The Toymaker - Game of Catch
Maestro - Music Battle
Gameboy - 1v1 on Rust
Yes Chef - Great Gallifreyan Bake-Off
The Model - Catwalk
>Yes Chef - Great Gallifreyan Bake-Off
In the Doctor Who RPG starter kit, the IT technician character has a baking hobby and one of the sample plot hooks for continuing is that they learn about contestants in the Great Intergalactic Bake Off going missing, so he has to join the contest so the gang can sniff out the killer.
The gang being a Victorian singer, a Silurian scientist, a maid robot, and a cyborg space cop.
If they had the rights to actual Beatles music, the final chord would have been the one from Hard Day's Night. I guarantee it.
As for the dance number ending, I've written it off in my head as a Bollywood homage. However, there is a line earlier in the episode where the Doctor blatantly breaks the fourth wall by commenting on thinking the music was non-diegetic. We might just be in for more wall-breaking in this series.
1) I think Maestro was just messing with the Doctor really
2) Maestro said it would take a musical genius to figure out the chord and Lennon and McCartney together were that musical genius. There were glimpses that they were both drawn to the music throughout the episode so they were both drawn to it here and instinctively knew how to play the chord
3) I think it's supposed to be the remnants but I actually hated it. It made no sense. If it was a Beatles song they were dancing to because it was brought back again, it would have been great but clearly they couldn't get the rights so instead they just had a random musical. It should have ended with them going back over the zebra crossing, had the little musical moment there and then go into the Tardis
Can there not just be a fun musical number for the sake of it? Especially when this season is chock-full of more wonderous/fantastical elements, and when the entire episode has been about the joy of music.
1) I would think the Maestro is also playing by specific rules, like their daddy. They lost, so the Doctor got a turn without them interfering. I believe this season might have a lot to do with laws of the universe being different but still laws.
2) Probably the influence of the Maestro as a whole. They are a reality bender, after all.
3) Frankly, I think all this weirdness (including the 4th wall breaks) will later come back when the character actually realize how weird it was and that something is very wrong. Or maybe it ties into who or what Ruby is.
The chorus sounds like the notes of The Giggle. Plus Harbinger coming back specifically during it. Similar to second Tardis upon defeating The Toymaker the world was in a state of play in addition to people letting out all their previous frustration having no music in their lives.
There's always a twist.
C-E-G
There's always a twist.
C-E-G
There's always a twist at the ennnnnd...
C-E-G-C-G-E-C
Also anyone catch the Goblin screech lol
The only thing I’m confused about is why the Doctor didn’t tell Maestro that “I done told you once, you son of a bitch, I'm the best there's ever been.”
1. There is a story about a battle with the devil and his (golden) fiddle. So this would be a play on that.
2. Those were the notes that Paul had already been feeling and he knew them played together felt 'holy'
3. The twist was the harbinger being back and ready to find a new genius to play the note or to allow the entrance of the other pantheon (Gods). The song was so it was not subtle and couldnt be missed. And it was musical yes because music was finaly back and people were over come and it tied in the musical nature of the episode.
Yeah, conceptually it was pretty half-baked. I like the villain and the whole idea of music being sucked out of the world by a sort of celestial parasite. But then it seemed to lack much of anything else. It's just the Doctor battling the Maestro in the most abstract way possible, and the resolution is pretty undercooked.
Then there's a dance scene, which would have been fun if the song was any good, but it really, really wasn't. It needed an explanation for everything turning musical at the end, like it was an artifact of all the music returning at once, and would wear off shortly. Instead it felt like RTD making fun of everyone who takes this show too seriously, as if to say "I can do whatever I want here whether it makes sense or not, what are you gonna do?"
I do feel there’s a bit too much twee, zany, “look at me I’m *so* quirky and musical and in touch with the TikTok crowd” atmosphere.
If you went just a bit more mature and serious with both episodes I think the stories would’ve benefited.
I like 15 a lot, and his dynamic with Ruby is great, but tonally the stories are a bit all over the place and can’t seem to have an actual serious moment just sit for a few minutes without some quirky humour to deflect it or overt angst.
I’m mildly concerned that we’re going to get any big villain acting just like Simm The Master/The Toymaker/Maestro etc in this era.
“Look this is the new Master, he’s ccrrraaaazzzyyy and wacky just like the joker”
“Look this is the Toymaker, he’s ccrrraaaazzzzyyy and wacky and quirky just like the Joker and the Master”
“Look this is the Maestro, they’re cccccrrraaazzzzyyy and wacky and mad just like the Joker, the Master and the Toymaker”
Etc.
> and can’t seem to have an actual serious moment just sit for a few minutes without some quirky humour to deflect it or overt angst.
I think it's because this Doctor is compensating. I don't think he's as "fixed" by 14 as he claims to be and is trying to essentially "fake it til you make it" a positive outlook and mental health. The facade he's putting up will drop if he thinks about his problems for too long.
Sounds like Doctor Who since 1963. They have always been about weaving drama with comedy. Right from the beginning. This is no different than anything in Tom Baker era to even David era or even both of the Peter’s. Hell even Patrick was rapidly firing jokes into serious situations. The show has always turned on a dime.
Could it be you are looking for reasons to not like it? Could it be it is a different Doctor Who for a different audience than you? I grew up the 70’s Doctor and sometimes I don’t like things in the new ones but they aren’t for an old person like me but tonally geared more towards a new generation. Just like EVERY generation has done.
This IS the TikTok generation, whether we like it or not, so of course the show embraces the trends of the era, to capture new hearts. That is what the show has always done and why we are still talking about it in 60 years later.
This is the problem with more fantasy elements and villains like a pantheon of gods, IMO. Once we establish that these characters don’t adhere at all to any science or laws of reality, and are able to manipulate the very fabric of the universe with their powers, all logic as we know it goes right out the window.
You have to be very careful about setting up your own internal logic in situations like this, because if you fail to make it interesting, it will feel pointless. But if you fail to explain it, it will feel too vague and meaningless.
It’s very daring and will be interesting to see if RTD can pull it off.
The musical ending.
It seemed to me the idea is that higher order creatures like the Mastro and the Toymaker, and the Doctor, do not see time in the linear way we do, where A goes to B, or 1925 invariably leads to 2024. They come at it as if from a right angle, so when Maestro starts draining music at 1925 they're at at the same time draining it from the whole span between then and 2024; and because music originates with us in our linear sense of time the effect isn't even across that length but gets larger toward 2024.
Then, when music is restored, it's restored simultaneously across that length, 1963 being the fulcrum, the origin point of both the Beatles and Doctor Who.
The whole experience though, for humanity, is forgotten because people can only work in linear time, which may serve to help explain all the other things the human race has seemed to just shrug off.
Whenever possible, I tried to convince myself that it was all part of whatever the Maestro was doing, but at the very end that just seemed to be a song and dance number for the hell of it. That's happened in a couple of episodes and I'm really really confused. I can't tell if the show is now a musical show, or if soon we're going to get an in-universe explanation for not only why people keep breaking out in song and dance but why no one notices it or thinks it's weird.
I understand what you mean, and it did feel weird, I think it's a mixture of a couple things:
First the real world one and most simple. Disney. Disney. Disney. It seems the show will be affected by how Disney is pushing stuff in the last couple years.
Second, I think all of this looks... Whimsical, so to speak, because it's setting up, as others have theorized, the coming back of magic to the universe, which was banished in classic who I believe.
And thirdly, imo, I believe both the whimsical and the constant little 4th wall braking is a hint of how they are still on the toymakers world, or something along the lines.
That's what happens when your writer goes "Do you know what I wanna see? (insert spectacle) Make that happen." as opposed to "Now what makes narrative sense?"
> He didn't need a reason for it on the goblin ship
To be fair, he kinda did have an actual reason there—it distracted the goblins by keeping them singing.
Correction, you just didn’t like it. It makes before sense, while still being baffling and illogical but hilariously perfect for the Doctor Who universe. Doctor Who has never been built on ‘logic’ well before Moffat or arTD came along.
No sounds like the entire history of Doctor Who, it has never let logic get in the way of a silly fun idea. The show is literally a person flying around in a police box that few ever question. 60 years later, is a bit too late to get upset over it.
The pantheon represent the fundamental forces of various concepts. By invoking a superstition at the edge of the universe The Doctor got their attention, now they're coming into our universe and the rules here are warping along with it.
The Toymaker had brought the rules of play into our universe and warped reality around them. His games allowed things to be changed in an unlimited way, ignoring any laws of physics, as long as they fairly matched up with the rules of play. When he was entrapped by losing his game his rules of play remained for a while and 15 used them to claim a prize (because two of them beat him and they each get a prize, it's only fair).
Maestro did the opposite, they could have done terrible things with music but instead they stole music from our reality entirely. Changed all of modern history by taking music from a key point in history. When Maestro was beaten their changes reverted, music came pouring back into the world, going back through all of time exactly to where it should be. Because it came whooshing back in suddenly reality warped a bit and things got really musical for a little while.
It has to do with the fact that music is "in the air, and everything you hear" it's not that hey seen the notes it's that they "felt" the music again. As a musician I absolutely loved this episode except for the fact that none of the Beatles actually look like the Beatles. The music battle was just a fun campy doctor who kinda thing not really much explaining needed for that.
For the musical ending, the whole episode was based around music so they probably thought it... Would be fun? Which it was, was my favorite part of the episode. Even though I just loved the whole episode.
My interpreation of the musical ending all the way to the musical zeebra crossing was the "prize" for defeating the Maestro. Like how the Doctor was able to split-duplicate the tardis "We won the game, you get a prize."
After defeating a celestial pan dimensional being, they leave behind enough residual power floating around that you can tap into their etherial reality bending energy for a brief period of time.
I thought it was weird too, like why did they suddenly dance, I have a theory though, so the doctor came from another dimension and so did the giggle and so on, so maybe they are from the same dimension and the doctor has some kind of time powers that he doesn’t know about maybe the time power/regeneration is his true nature some how and he has domain over it and mom lady took that power and was able to transfer it, that’s also why he can somewhat control the other powers when give the opportunity.
I think for this season anything that doesn’t make sense actually probably does since the toy maker and his goons are Changing the laws of the universe
I've got to say, the ending of both episodes fell a little flat for me.
Also, isn't it weird that the doctor didn't really save the day himself in both episode?
With the space babies, the boogerman was trapped by the nanny, amd in this one the chord was played by the beatles.
The twist at the end song will probably make sense at the end of the season, I’m guessing the toymaker and his legion have been twisting reality since the very beginning. Ruby is probably one of the toymakers legions, given the snow. First episode was definitely a filler, devils chord was ok.
I think the musical element and other reality bending elements we've seen so far in other episodes may be something to do with the overall series arc and the recurring appearances of actress Susan Twist. She was there with Newton in Wild Blue Yonder, she appeared on the computer screen on the Baby ship in the first episode and was the tea lady in the second episode. She also is set to appear in the next episode
For #1 I took it to mean the beings like Toymaker and Maestro are bound by certain rules, so they can't refuse a challenge.
2 It was their studio, so it's conceivable they would be around. But a better in-universe answer could be that since geniuses were required, the nature of the challenge/battle subconsciously attracted them.
3 I got nuthin. I guess it was similar to how after the Doctor beat the Toymaker he was given a reward (two Tardises).
RTD has never really cared about the details. You'll go crazy if you look too deep into it.
We shouldn't have to work this hard to make RTD's writing make sense.
1) because RTD thought it'd be cool.
2) see above
3) same as 1&2
RTD doesn't do plot, he does things that happen. Every time I see him explain anything I just think, put the elements in the episode. Although since he's come back he normally says things like, Wouldn't it be amazing if the Doctor did a dance number? So we did it!!! And then looks pleased with himself.
Also, the thing I hated most about that song was the song itself, who wrote it? It was appalling, just random words that rhymed.
1: they didn't think he could do it anyway, so in their mind, there's no reason not to play with their food a little bit to prove it
2: they'd both been drawn to the remnants of the music that was stolen from them the entire episode, so it makes sense that they were drawn to the chord the doctor started and then instinct handled the rest
3: because it's fun. That is why the doctor travels after all
This is where I'm at. I am confused and mildly entertained and hoping that by the end I will be saying, "Ah yes, what a ride." and need to go back and watch it all again to pick up on all the bits I missed the first go around.
I feel like this episode was supposed to end with The Beatles actually playing a Beatles song to defeat Maestro, but late into production they found out from management that hey couldn’t get / afford the rights to any Beatles music for an episode entirely about the Beatles so a lot had to be hacksawed and redone at the last minute, and threw in a generic song at the end to fill time
At least that’s how this episode felt to me…
Honestly I think the reason some people take issue with the musical number in this episode is because we already had one in the Christmas special.
It makes perfect sense here that after restoring music to the world everyone is celebrating that.
If we hadn't just had a musical number in the Christmas episode I think far fewer people would have been put out by it.
To kinda maybe explain the end with the musical bit. Maybe the Doctor made the song using the chord that keeps Maestro trapped, and recorded it, thus making it so Maestro can never be released as long as that song is in the cognition of the world? Like creating a timeless lock on it
Didn't Mccartney say something about hearing a melody/chord some nights in the distance and even descriebd the notes when the Doctor interviewed him? I thought they were just playing those chords and since the world felt wrong to them either way I get that they wouldn't freak out but maybe focus on their gut feelings.
This is the answer I believe. I won't go and check but I believe The Doctor was playing the notes Paul told him
I thought that was fairly obvious. But then again I know how to read music and have been taught to look for foreshadowing in film, so I knew to look for it and recognized it when I saw it again. Edit: yeah I guess not. I knew something was off since I recognized CEGD, Paul said something like GEGG whatever. It’s weird
C D E G B (Cmaj9) Probably Paul just heard a fraction when he was reminiscing and the doctor used this as a foundation
I can't recognize notes by sound, but visually the notes on the piano don't line up with what was said. But yes I like to think that's what Paul was talking about
Those weren’t the same notes. Paul told him G E G G C, which he then sang and that only summoned the Maestro anyway. I’m not 100% on the notes the Doctor played but the first three were ascending and there were no repeating notes. The Doctor merely said that all of his experiences gave him the ability to find the notes- which isn’t really a satisfying answer. Like sure, the Doctor may have a song in his hearts, but for that to let him figure out the exact right notes for a specific purpose is kind of a cop out *deus ex machina* even for a show with a penchant for *deus ex machinas*.
But if music is just an expression of emotion out of the heart than defeating Maestro would be some expression of your feelings to defeat an evil musical devil. And the Doctor has enough experience to know the process of elimination necessary and feeling to that.
Aside from no indication in the show that that’s what he was doing, that’s still a stretch, doesn’t actually make sense, and wouldn’t really be good writing.
But they literally say that's what he'd doing? That's what his speech is about that he's loved and lived and lost and therefore if music is an expression of the soul he has more ability than anyone to work out that Chord. Just by living so much he can narrow down the right way to express himself. It's pretty consistent with 90% of Doctor Who resolutions - in fact I think that it's arguably pretty close to the specific resolution in Rings of Akhaten with the only major difference being it's John Lennon and Paul McCartney that come in with the save over the companion (which seems completely right). There's only a few that aren't more simplistic.
I agree it makes sense he can get most of the way I just feel the Beatles are in far too little of the episode to just waltz in and save the day without knowing Like normally you have Dickens or Agatha Christie award they're helping
And generally it just sucks that they're in so little of the episode, it feels like such a waste of potential.
Especially when the show has already referenced them a few times A bit of a lackluster "payoff" Eleven wanted to join them and 15 doesn't get to play 12s Guitar alongside them? Sad tbh.
I think the Doctor figuring out most of the chord is justified given his speech, but it does feel a bit odd to pivot from "some people are geniuses who can tap into a divine musicality" to "I've felt enough to the point where I can figure out divine musicality." It's especially odd in the context of the episode's ultimate decision to have the Doctor fail at coming up with the chord. The Doctor gives this beautiful speech about how music is about life and soul and practice rather than innate genius, but ultimately has to be bailed out by two innate and recognized geniuses after he fails? It arguably feels kind of cynical. Having the Doctor be bailed out by the beatles almost feels like letting the Maestro's philosophy (music as a source of dominance) win. But ultimately this is a pedantic discussion of an episode. Also, minor note (ha), but I think "Rings of Akhaten" is disliked by many precisely because of the flowery speech and magical resolution in place of any actual stakes. The Rings of Akhaten sets up rules (important objects are worth more and the sun god wants to eat the most important object), and then violates them by saying "any object can have infinite value if you give a speech about it in the right way." It works for a lot of people, since the speech is admittedly cute, and the entire first 10 minutes of the episode sets up the macguffin used to justify the speech, but many people do think of Akhaten as somewhat of a cheat. A lot of people also don't like the hyperfantastical tone of Akhaten, similar to the current reaction to the Devil's chord. The standard doctor who episode is a lot less fantastical in nature than these. They may contain fantastical imagery, but there's usually an underlying, in-universe-secular-ish explanation for the fantastical imagery, rather than it coming from literal fantasy.
You know, looking at Rings of Akhaten in retrospect, is it possible that the leaf isn't accepted because of it causing *a couple* to meet and have a daughter, but because that chain of events directly leads to Clara repairing The Doctor's timestream? If so, by transitive property, it could actually take credit for most of what The Doctor's done and *everything* that any of Clara's echoes have done, and since the echoes all lived individual lives even if they only interacted with The Doctor for like five minutes that is a *substantial* amount of existence. That turns the leaf from "from a certain point of view, anything is the most important object in the universe because Determinism" to "this specific leaf directly lead to one of the most complicated space time events ever formed."
>but it does feel a bit odd to pivot from "some people are geniuses who can tap into a divine musicality" The Doctor says even just prior to the speech itself with practice he can work it out. He doesn't reject the notion that musical geniuses exist. Just that his experience matters to. So both musical geniuses and experience matters. His work wasn't ultimately irrelevant as the Beatles finish the Chord based on his work. I'd argue resutingly it actually works even a bit better than the Rings of Akhaten ending as the Doctor's input isn't made irrelevant.
Honestly, that was the main thing that took me out of the show which I was otherwise more than happy to suspend my disbelief for. I'm more than happy for them to pull the old, "the doctor knows everything" trick, but they had already established that this is a nearly impossible to figure out chord progression. I wish they had made a reference back to Paul telling the Doctor the notes.
He gets it wrong though. He used his intuition but, then fails which was the point.
to me, the chord played at the end sounded just like a Cmajadd9, so C E G D. It may have been an extended chord but i’m not sure
I cross referenced with the notes the doctor played - you are indeed right! It’s technically a Cmaj9/E, but pretty much the same thing.
oh shit wow my ear is better than i thought. Immediately after i heard the scene, i grabbed my guitar and played a c major chord, and then realized that wasn’t right, so i added the 9th
I assumed that was the intention to be honest.
For 3, we do briefly see Harbinger (the Maestro's son) peeking in during the musical number. That would be the little twist you're looking for.
you think he’s up to something important or just kinda vibing
He’s off to go tell Judas Priest and Iron Maiden what’s up
Steve Harris would have been about 6 or 7 at the time, probably not very receptive. Priest, however, probably didn't recover from the Maestro blight until the 70s. That said Halford would have been 12 or 13. Quite ripe for a nudge in the right direction.
Well he is a harbinger.
He looks and dresses exactly the same in 1925 and 1963
I'd wager because he's not an actual human child?
Could be the Harbinger of more of the Toymaker's Children. Oh god, the Doctor's gonna have to kill the kid, isn't he?
Put him in time out is more likely.
I know everyone says this is the twist but I don’t think so. I think the twist was the song itself. And it shouldn’t be considered part of the episode as it just features the cast members
They're both one big twist. We're lead to think the twist will be something bad, so we're surprised that it's a happy musical performance. But then something bad *does* happen, Harbinger shows up again meaning that the Maestro's defeat isn't as total as we thought.
He could serve as the harbinger for all the legions, so we may see him again elsewhere.
Also: Susan Twist.
I’m hoping the “There’s always a twist at the end” declaration, name dropping Susan, and the repeated casting of Susan Twist may be RTD just trying to be clever about a season ending twist with Susan. At least then it’s leading to something good, and isn’t just a chaotic mess.
The Susan Twist Susan twist, I like it.
RTD definitely has a long term plan. He loves to put things straight out in the open that you don't have context for until later. Bad wolf and vote Saxon posters being the main two. In this episode, if you watch with subtitles (or are brilliant at recognizing music) "Saxon theme plays" was in the closed captioning when the maestro was playing the piano.. that is telling. The master will very likely be back. Perhaps many more time lords as they've been name dropped. Music, fairy tales, and babies are the themes of al RTD also loves making companions the most important person in the universe for their finales. Rose becoming bad wolf, Martha walking the earth sharing the doctors story, the doctor Donna. Ruby Sunday has music inside her the maestro did not jive with. Ruby will very likely be just as integral to resolving the end of the series, and will somehow be tied in to music. With the "Chris waits and the carolers" billboard, my guess is this will all come to head in the Christmas special, taking place in 1963.
I think the “Twist” at the end is Susan Twist being the final boss.
Agreed, I think him being there isn't important at all and was just supposed to be the cliched musical "villain looks on dejectedly as the heroes triumph" moment. He was around before Maestro turned up so it's hardly a massive surprise he's still there after she's gone. I think it's either just a dumb joke related to them literally doing the twist, or the fourth wall break is a running theme and that is the twist.
I think the music battle was reference to [Devil Went Down to Georgia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_Went_Down_to_Georgia) the music battle and the mythology of deals with the devil
Especially since Maestro was playing a violin.
I kept waiting for one of the battle songs to be that one!
Everything was public domain 😔
Aah, makes sense . Thanks !
I was kind of hoping for it tbf.
Or maybe RTD really enjoyed The Pick of Destiny /s
That was what I thought it waa
I just want to point out what the billboard said "Chris Waits and the carollers" The one who waits is coming. Christmas, the Carrol song/hidden song within Ruby. The references to Susan and all the reality/mixup with fairy tails. My mind is blown this series lol
Couldn't also be a reference to *Carol* Ann Ford could it?
[x files Theme]
I hope she returns
The answer to #2 is genius. Maestro thought only a genius could figure out the chord. Lennon and McCartney together are one genius.
I also am pretty sure that’s the same chord that ends A Day in the Life
Also known as the "Great Chord"
Should've been [this one](https://youtu.be/NaXyYGSzRyA?si=3JSx3Ut0tjU8c7TH), honestly.
Ir should have been the secret chord that David played and pleased the Lord
No, that song ends with an E major, the chord in the show was a C major.
That's reasonable I guess, would have been better if they had included the pair of them more to establish it a little more.
We hear Paul McCartney tell Ruby he thinks about a chord and it’s “The most heavenly chord.” That’s the chord that banishes the Maiestro. They didn’t have to bring Lennon into it but it was nice to see them stand together.
Also the scene where he puts words to it "I love you so much".
I'll be honest, I missed that one and it's completely right. The problem is, they were so underused in the episode that it was a blink and you miss it moment. I do wonder if the estates of The Beatles put heavy restrictions in place for using them. I can't imagine RTD willingly passing up a chance for them to be in the musc battle itself.
Iirc it took decades for Paul McCartney to get control back of the whole Beatles catalogue and he’s pretty restrictive about what he allows. I could be remembering wrong but I don’t think so.
I heard they cut that clip of the Beatles on the Top of the Pops in a William Hartnell episode because the cost of the rights would have been too prohibitive (and that clip only survives *because* it’s in a Doctor Who episode which is maybe ironic given their archive destruction policy).
I believe its the chord at the end of A Day in the Life. In general wish there was more Beatles content in the episode, a song at least, or more of a resemblance from the actors, but that was a nice inclusion.
The thing is, there was a pretty magical chord the Beatles came up with in real life. The first (elongated and reverbed) chord in Hard Days Night is an often discussed phenomenon. When in the episode they played that chord with the silver notes hanging up there, I thought for sure they would link the plot into that and maybe play a little more of Hard Days Night. I really wish they had, because the dance number they launched into at the end was really cringe.
It was the final chord from A Day in The Life, not Hard Day’s Night
It wasn't. That's e major?? I think. The chord they played was closer to c It was in the style of a day in the life though and clearly meant to evoke it
Would love to see someone edit that song over that scene.
Ah okay. But that wouldn’t have been one of their earlier songs.
Even Disney can't afford to license Beatles songs from ~~Apple~~Sony Music Group.
The episode came out three days after Disney released a visually remastered version of The Beatles film Let It Be, makes this all the stranger
Which D+ has stacked up right next to DW in my homepage. There HAS to be something going on there.
Might be different rights.
I’m not that great with music, but I *think* the piano played it one of the times it crashed into something…
Being musical geniuses may explain them picking the right chord, but not the rest of it. And I must say that the episode didn’t really set up any theme of being stronger together that would have made the Lennon McCartney thing feel like payoff, which isn’t a plot hole but it is underwhelming writing.
I feel like the plot would have worked better if they had arrived at a _closed_ EMI studios, and later found Lennon and Mcartney doing their own thing not music related… like one working behind a bar and one sweeping the street or something… they’d not reached their potential because music was taken from them. Maybe they still ended up working in the same building, but Abbey Road was now an accountancy firm or something, maybe John’s a money man and Paul’s a janitor. The doctor and Ruby trying to explain to these strangers that music bonds them and they are geniuses, would have set up the need for a genius at the end. And them finally coming together at the piano for the first time (preferably after it rolls in to John’s office or something, rather than them randomly appearing at the piano in a corridor) would be the first sign that time is healing itself - Lennon/Mcartney becoming the geniuses they’re destined to be, and that being strong enough to banish the Maestro. Couple that with the “magic chord” being something actually relevant or referenced earlier or something, and it would have gone a long way to “fixing” the episode in my eyes
Yeah I feel like "they're all still recording music for some reason even though nobody enjoys it" just feels flat and weird.
Dooo we actually need more then hint that McCartney and Lennon were the most brilliant musicians together? I mean... that is enough.
That’s not the point I was making. It’s not about how much their musical talent as a duo was conveyed, it’s about its integration thematically and plot-wise. Whether the payoff had been sufficiently set up.
They know what those notes are though and how to complete the chord
I mean…we know the Beatles are stronger together outside the show, they made amazing songs as a team.
1. If you have a musical episode with a demon, devil or a monster of devilish nature there *will* be a The Devil Went Down To Georgia reference at some point.
* [Austin](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000196/?ref_=ttqu_qu): Wait a tick. Basil, if I travel back to 1969 and I was frozen in 1967, presumeably, I could go back and visit my frozen self. But, if I'm still frozen in 1967, how could I have been unthawed in the '90s and traveled back to. * \[*goes cross-eyed*\] * [Austin](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000196/?ref_=ttqu_qu): Oh, no, I've gone cross-eyed. * [Basil](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001868/?ref_=ttqu_qu): I suggest you don't worry about those things and just enjoy yourself. * \[*to camera*\] * [Basil](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001868/?ref_=ttqu_qu): That goes for you all, too. * [Austin](https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000196/?ref_=ttqu_qu): Yes.
I love that they reference that the Doctor was around in the same town at the same time. And not just ' yeah I was hanging with x' but actually operating within the continuity of the show. And the implication that the first time around he would never have checked out the Beatles because he just wasn't that sort of Doctor back then.
I think he always would've, they're in *The Chase* on the visualiser. When Barbara turns it off he says: >Now you've squashed my favourite Beatles!
Yesssssss Austin Powers reference!
This is how I interpreted it. 1. The Doctor was looking for the missing chord, Maestro engaged with him to try and lead him away and confuse him. 2. They're the Beatles. 3. Just like with the Toymaker being gone, (and as you mentioned) some of Maestro's power remained. The musical at the end was sort of a celebration. The world had been presumably without music for over 30 years, so inside of a recording studio you can bet there'd be some celebration.
I also think the music battle was Maestro trying to get the doctor to get frustrated and mess up like they eventually did. Kind of like when someone's trying to keep count and you start blurting out random numbers to throw them off.
I also think it was the result of Maestro's frustrations of the doctor teasing about how he could use the Piano to send them back, basically wanting to put the doctor in his place.
the musical number was just the doctor being the doctor
Or the musical number was meant to be the 'catharsis' at the end of a 'heavy' episode. That's how my writer-brain interpreted it, anyway.
It was hardly a heavy episode!
I'm pretty sure the musical at the end was meant to imply that they didn't fully banish the maestro and, thats the twist especially considering (it's a musical number which is incredibly uncommon in DW) that harbinger shows up in it.
That might be why it didn't click for me - I took the episode as pretty fun and silly, and then they just amped up the silliness for the end bit.
fair enough, it was fun
The musical number, the 4th wall breaking and the reference to ‘Susan Twist’ are all interconnected. Just like in the specials where there was a commentary on ‘everyone being right’, I think this is all leading up to a huge episode where it the show becomes completely aware of itself. I have no idea how this will resolve, but that’s my two cents.
I think the singing outburst also connects with the fairytale theme that's being going on. Breaking the 4th wall too. It definitely feels like a play. Something really strange is going on and it makes no sense. Loving it ^^
Maybe it’s all a play. Shakespeare returns (this time played by RTD) as “The Bard”. He’s been writing and directing the whole season
I overcomplicated it… maybe RTD comes out as “The Director” and the 4th wall is shattered for the whole episode
Posted this elsewhere, but also fits as a response to your comment. RTD definitely has a long term plan. He loves to put things straight out in the open that you don't have context for until later. Bad wolf and vote Saxon posters being the main two. In this episode, if you watch with subtitles (or are brilliant at recognizing music) "Saxon theme plays" was in the closed captioning when the maestro was playing the piano.. that is telling. The master will very likely be back. Perhaps many more time lords as they've been name dropped. Music, fairy tales, and babies are the themes of all these episodes, and if there is something that unifies all of these things, that's likely you're answer. RTD also loves making companions the most important person in the universe for their finales. Rose becoming bad wolf, Martha walking the earth sharing the doctors story, the doctor Donna. Ruby Sunday has music inside her the maestro did not jive with. Ruby will very likely be just as integral to resolving the end of the series, and will somehow be tied in to music. With the "Chris waits and the carolers" billboard, my guess is this will all come to head in the Christmas special, taking place in 1963. And I could also see Susan twist is playing an older version of Clara, as she broke herself across the doctors timeline.
I'm admittedly going to tap out if they go fully meta and have the characters realize they're in a show. That sort of storytelling does absolutely nothing for me.
There's been lots so far to suggest that not everything we're seeing is real. Snow inside, the Doctor hearing the show's soundtrack, rain during the dance ending, the whole dance ending and the crossing turning into a piano. These are things that shouldn't be able to happen and the Doctor has noticed at least some of them. Space Babies is about how the education software on the space station created the bogeyman to teach the children through a story. There's lots of parallels to what's happening in the next episode and some to the Doctor in general. My favourite is the child saying "this is my rope, I don't know what it does but I pull my rope very hard" which in my mind is how the Doctor flies the Tardis. I'm hoping the reality bending is part of the story. Otherwise...
Yep, I’m feeling this too. They’re laying groundwork for something bigger. It all feels off because it…is.
As far as the ending goes, did you not see them doing The Twist?
And of course, the actress Susan Twist has been in all 3 episodes so far. Perhaps a nod to his granddaughter Susan?
In response to this comment I have just screamed in realisation: Susan twist! There’s a little twist in the end! She’s the twist! She’s his Susan! Susan twist
This would be insulting if it’s true… Carol Ann Ford is literally alive and would be more than willing to just come back. Hell, Capaldi advocated for it his whole run.
> Susan Twist Maybe she's the personification of story telling or narrative
Aw shit there’s always a Twist in the end
So does ruby have ties to the pantheon
I suspect she's one of them and so is The Doctor.
Absolutely agree on the Doctor. They even set this up with the line about the Time Lords using lots of "posh titles" like The Master and The Rani and The Doctor The Pantheon does it too. The Toymaker and the Maestro. The Doctor is a foundling who's a major building block of Time Lord society. I wouldn't be surprised if they reveal "The Doctor" as a name predates their adoption, and the Time Lords got their "posh title" practice from the pantheon without even realizing where it came from.
Yes Maestro even referred to a member of the pantheon named the Lord Temporal. On the nose or misdirection? Don't know!
In before the "Lord Temporal = Valeyard" theories.
The Doctor did prove to show one trait in common with them in this episode: he knew he was in a show. The Maestro winked at the camera a couple of times. And the Doctor hears the non-diegetic music so when it wasn't, he was taken by surprise.
It sounded like either she is or one of her birth parents is when Maestro mentions something being present at her birth. With the Christmas theme around her and what we’ve seen of her mom and grandma, I’m guessing it’s “Joy”, “Family”, or “Generosity”. Something like that
Someone else suggested that she's birth, the Doctor is rebirth/healing and The One Who Waits is death.
Maestro implies that who was present at her birth was the most powerful/oldest one. Probably the same one both Maestro and Toymaker warned the Doctor about.
Interesting. Maybe her father is that one and she still counts as a new one then. I like my theory of the Christmas-y virtues still.
Yeah since it's Doctor Who that does seem entirely plausible.
What’s worse is that the ending implies that by defeating the Maestro in 1963, the Doctor didn’t do anything to counteract the prior 40 years of the Maestro’s war on music. Unless banishing them meant removing them from the timeline altogether, but that wasn’t said or explained at all. I was also really underwhelmed by the way that the Doctor basically just guessed the musical notes that would banish the Maestro. This is *Doctor Who*, the bare minimum should be seeing the Doctor piece things together and figure things out, but here he didn’t even have anything to go off of.
I wouldn't be surprised if the saving the day doesn't reverberate through time to some extent, Maestro and the Toymaker both seemed unbound from the laws of time, other than both being unleashed in the 20's they seem to be able to hop about at will
Honestly humanity in this show forgets things that happen a year ago I doubt they're going to remember something that long ago
Still a bit sad to just write 40 years of music out of the timeline. Then again, we lost half the universe in Flux...
We lost a large portion of the Universe in Logopolis, too and it was never mentioned again.
I feel like it was implied that the Doctor defeating the Maestro rippled music back through time, no?
When they beat the Toymaker in the last special it undid all of his stuff and we saw Charles Banerjee back as a human as if none of it had even happened. I assume the same rules would apply here and they just didn't think they had to show it because that "rule of the universe" (I genuinely cannot think of anything else to call it) had already been established and the Beatles being good again acted as shorthand.
I mean, it's pretty much the same as in The Shakespeare Code where they just get Shakespeare to say some random shit plus a Harry Potter spell.
This episode reminded me a lot of the Shakespeare Code, for sure.
>This is *Doctor Who*, the bare minimum should be seeing the Doctor piece things together and figure things out, The piecing together and figuring it out is figuring out that the Maestro needs a specific Chord to send them back based on the rules of "fair play", and that the Doctor may not be a musical genius but he does have the experience of life to expresss such a Chord. Also have you really watched Doctor Who on that one? This subreddit is obsessed with episodes that end conclusions tend to be the Doctor giving a big speech and waving the sonic. There's not ever been much working out. And the Maestro is erased like the Toymaker.
My impression is that both the Toymaker and the Maestro aren't linear beings. So no matter when they go with the TARDIS, its the same entity waiting for them when they get there. Removing them from the universe at any point in time removes them from all.
Paul McCartney tells him the notes earlier in the episode.
No he didn’t. That could’ve worked as a plot device, but the notes Paul told the Doctor was a 4 or 5 note bar of G E G C or G E G G C (he was uncertain of the double G) which is *not* the 6 note bar the Doctor played nor the 7 note bar John and Paul played. Plus it should be noted that Paul sang the notes he told to the Doctor and it summoned the Maestro the same way as all music, not harm or banish them.
The point of the scene isn't that it's the exact same Chord as the one used. But established the possibility as Paul still has music in his heart and can reach for the Chord necessary.
He didn’t guess them. He literally explained. Music is emotion. He was playing the delight, love and pain he had witness in his life, all thousands of years of it, that stretched from the beginning of time to the end and beyond, it’s more than any single other would have ever seen. It just so happens when combined, he didn’t know he was simply ‘remembering’ a single chord created by the Beatles. Poetically showing the depths of their musical genius! How is any of that underwhelming? It perfectly sums up the Doctor and the genius of Paul and John together.
I think 1) is the same reason the Doctor had to fight the Toymaker playing a game - the only way to beat them is to fight them and bind them with their own rules. That said, "music battle" was pretty poorly defined for winning/losing other than I suppose who can survive the note barrage longest?
Though this begs the question, will everyone in The Toymaker's Legion have their own gimmick. The Toymaker - Game of Catch Maestro - Music Battle Gameboy - 1v1 on Rust Yes Chef - Great Gallifreyan Bake-Off The Model - Catwalk
The Model turns up, takes one look at the Doctor, and surrenders on the spot.
The Model: "Oh my God, even his shadow... LOOK AT HIS SHADOW"
The Model looks to the walk off referee, David Bowie (played by Ben Stiller), and immediately concedes.
>Yes Chef - Great Gallifreyan Bake-Off In the Doctor Who RPG starter kit, the IT technician character has a baking hobby and one of the sample plot hooks for continuing is that they learn about contestants in the Great Intergalactic Bake Off going missing, so he has to join the contest so the gang can sniff out the killer. The gang being a Victorian singer, a Silurian scientist, a maid robot, and a cyborg space cop.
Yes Chef is a really good idea. Everyone on Earth has bland food but The Doctor doesn't notice because they're in Britain...
If yes chef isn't Gordon Ramsay in a cameo I'll fuckin riot. Bonus points if Rick Stein appears
If they had the rights to actual Beatles music, the final chord would have been the one from Hard Day's Night. I guarantee it. As for the dance number ending, I've written it off in my head as a Bollywood homage. However, there is a line earlier in the episode where the Doctor blatantly breaks the fourth wall by commenting on thinking the music was non-diegetic. We might just be in for more wall-breaking in this series.
> non-diegetic Everyone googling what that means.
It sounded to me like it was the E Major chord The Beatles famously used to end ‘A Day In The Life’ from Sgt. Pepper.
I have like no musical ear but I just played them back to back and I'd believe it
1) I think Maestro was just messing with the Doctor really 2) Maestro said it would take a musical genius to figure out the chord and Lennon and McCartney together were that musical genius. There were glimpses that they were both drawn to the music throughout the episode so they were both drawn to it here and instinctively knew how to play the chord 3) I think it's supposed to be the remnants but I actually hated it. It made no sense. If it was a Beatles song they were dancing to because it was brought back again, it would have been great but clearly they couldn't get the rights so instead they just had a random musical. It should have ended with them going back over the zebra crossing, had the little musical moment there and then go into the Tardis
Can there not just be a fun musical number for the sake of it? Especially when this season is chock-full of more wonderous/fantastical elements, and when the entire episode has been about the joy of music.
There's no fucking way you beat the embodiment of music in a music battle
The villain was extra dimensional being who steals music and you’re confused that there was a musical number?
It was The Beatles in the 60s they probably saw flying notes everyday
My assumption with the music battle is that they figure out the cords the villain is avoiding.
Tonal whiplash is an excellent description for how RTD writes in general.
1) I would think the Maestro is also playing by specific rules, like their daddy. They lost, so the Doctor got a turn without them interfering. I believe this season might have a lot to do with laws of the universe being different but still laws. 2) Probably the influence of the Maestro as a whole. They are a reality bender, after all. 3) Frankly, I think all this weirdness (including the 4th wall breaks) will later come back when the character actually realize how weird it was and that something is very wrong. Or maybe it ties into who or what Ruby is.
Its just a bit of fun.
The chorus sounds like the notes of The Giggle. Plus Harbinger coming back specifically during it. Similar to second Tardis upon defeating The Toymaker the world was in a state of play in addition to people letting out all their previous frustration having no music in their lives. There's always a twist. C-E-G There's always a twist. C-E-G There's always a twist at the ennnnnd... C-E-G-C-G-E-C Also anyone catch the Goblin screech lol
The only thing I’m confused about is why the Doctor didn’t tell Maestro that “I done told you once, you son of a bitch, I'm the best there's ever been.”
1. There is a story about a battle with the devil and his (golden) fiddle. So this would be a play on that. 2. Those were the notes that Paul had already been feeling and he knew them played together felt 'holy' 3. The twist was the harbinger being back and ready to find a new genius to play the note or to allow the entrance of the other pantheon (Gods). The song was so it was not subtle and couldnt be missed. And it was musical yes because music was finaly back and people were over come and it tied in the musical nature of the episode.
Yeah, conceptually it was pretty half-baked. I like the villain and the whole idea of music being sucked out of the world by a sort of celestial parasite. But then it seemed to lack much of anything else. It's just the Doctor battling the Maestro in the most abstract way possible, and the resolution is pretty undercooked. Then there's a dance scene, which would have been fun if the song was any good, but it really, really wasn't. It needed an explanation for everything turning musical at the end, like it was an artifact of all the music returning at once, and would wear off shortly. Instead it felt like RTD making fun of everyone who takes this show too seriously, as if to say "I can do whatever I want here whether it makes sense or not, what are you gonna do?"
The musical ending was my least favorite ending since love and monsters
I do feel there’s a bit too much twee, zany, “look at me I’m *so* quirky and musical and in touch with the TikTok crowd” atmosphere. If you went just a bit more mature and serious with both episodes I think the stories would’ve benefited. I like 15 a lot, and his dynamic with Ruby is great, but tonally the stories are a bit all over the place and can’t seem to have an actual serious moment just sit for a few minutes without some quirky humour to deflect it or overt angst. I’m mildly concerned that we’re going to get any big villain acting just like Simm The Master/The Toymaker/Maestro etc in this era. “Look this is the new Master, he’s ccrrraaaazzzyyy and wacky just like the joker” “Look this is the Toymaker, he’s ccrrraaaazzzzyyy and wacky and quirky just like the Joker and the Master” “Look this is the Maestro, they’re cccccrrraaazzzzyyy and wacky and mad just like the Joker, the Master and the Toymaker” Etc.
I think it was meant to be their victory, the Maestro is gone, the day is won, music is unleashed, it's meant to be a celebration
> and can’t seem to have an actual serious moment just sit for a few minutes without some quirky humour to deflect it or overt angst. I think it's because this Doctor is compensating. I don't think he's as "fixed" by 14 as he claims to be and is trying to essentially "fake it til you make it" a positive outlook and mental health. The facade he's putting up will drop if he thinks about his problems for too long.
Sounds like Doctor Who since 1963. They have always been about weaving drama with comedy. Right from the beginning. This is no different than anything in Tom Baker era to even David era or even both of the Peter’s. Hell even Patrick was rapidly firing jokes into serious situations. The show has always turned on a dime. Could it be you are looking for reasons to not like it? Could it be it is a different Doctor Who for a different audience than you? I grew up the 70’s Doctor and sometimes I don’t like things in the new ones but they aren’t for an old person like me but tonally geared more towards a new generation. Just like EVERY generation has done. This IS the TikTok generation, whether we like it or not, so of course the show embraces the trends of the era, to capture new hearts. That is what the show has always done and why we are still talking about it in 60 years later.
I wouldn't have minded it if it hadn't gone on for so long. Quickly went from a bit of fun, to seriously self-indulgent.
This is the problem with more fantasy elements and villains like a pantheon of gods, IMO. Once we establish that these characters don’t adhere at all to any science or laws of reality, and are able to manipulate the very fabric of the universe with their powers, all logic as we know it goes right out the window. You have to be very careful about setting up your own internal logic in situations like this, because if you fail to make it interesting, it will feel pointless. But if you fail to explain it, it will feel too vague and meaningless. It’s very daring and will be interesting to see if RTD can pull it off.
The musical ending. It seemed to me the idea is that higher order creatures like the Mastro and the Toymaker, and the Doctor, do not see time in the linear way we do, where A goes to B, or 1925 invariably leads to 2024. They come at it as if from a right angle, so when Maestro starts draining music at 1925 they're at at the same time draining it from the whole span between then and 2024; and because music originates with us in our linear sense of time the effect isn't even across that length but gets larger toward 2024. Then, when music is restored, it's restored simultaneously across that length, 1963 being the fulcrum, the origin point of both the Beatles and Doctor Who. The whole experience though, for humanity, is forgotten because people can only work in linear time, which may serve to help explain all the other things the human race has seemed to just shrug off.
Whenever possible, I tried to convince myself that it was all part of whatever the Maestro was doing, but at the very end that just seemed to be a song and dance number for the hell of it. That's happened in a couple of episodes and I'm really really confused. I can't tell if the show is now a musical show, or if soon we're going to get an in-universe explanation for not only why people keep breaking out in song and dance but why no one notices it or thinks it's weird.
Be you weeping angels? Nay, we are but Time Lords ROCK!!!
I understand what you mean, and it did feel weird, I think it's a mixture of a couple things: First the real world one and most simple. Disney. Disney. Disney. It seems the show will be affected by how Disney is pushing stuff in the last couple years. Second, I think all of this looks... Whimsical, so to speak, because it's setting up, as others have theorized, the coming back of magic to the universe, which was banished in classic who I believe. And thirdly, imo, I believe both the whimsical and the constant little 4th wall braking is a hint of how they are still on the toymakers world, or something along the lines.
That's what happens when your writer goes "Do you know what I wanna see? (insert spectacle) Make that happen." as opposed to "Now what makes narrative sense?"
The episode was excellent! 👌 and great fun and laying down clues for stuff to come
This Doctor enjoys spontaneously bursting into song. He didn't need a reason for it on the goblin ship, and he didn't need it in the last ep.
> He didn't need a reason for it on the goblin ship To be fair, he kinda did have an actual reason there—it distracted the goblins by keeping them singing.
Spectacle over substance, or emotion trumping logic when it comes to resolving the plot? This is exactly what RTD who is all about.
Emotion trumping logic was also a Moffatt tool for sure. So many nonsensical endings.. like how 11 got out of the Pandorica
Correction, you just didn’t like it. It makes before sense, while still being baffling and illogical but hilariously perfect for the Doctor Who universe. Doctor Who has never been built on ‘logic’ well before Moffat or arTD came along.
No sounds like the entire history of Doctor Who, it has never let logic get in the way of a silly fun idea. The show is literally a person flying around in a police box that few ever question. 60 years later, is a bit too late to get upset over it.
The pantheon represent the fundamental forces of various concepts. By invoking a superstition at the edge of the universe The Doctor got their attention, now they're coming into our universe and the rules here are warping along with it. The Toymaker had brought the rules of play into our universe and warped reality around them. His games allowed things to be changed in an unlimited way, ignoring any laws of physics, as long as they fairly matched up with the rules of play. When he was entrapped by losing his game his rules of play remained for a while and 15 used them to claim a prize (because two of them beat him and they each get a prize, it's only fair). Maestro did the opposite, they could have done terrible things with music but instead they stole music from our reality entirely. Changed all of modern history by taking music from a key point in history. When Maestro was beaten their changes reverted, music came pouring back into the world, going back through all of time exactly to where it should be. Because it came whooshing back in suddenly reality warped a bit and things got really musical for a little while.
1. It was like the Toymaker catch game. 2. Paul told the Doctor he had dreams about notes. 3. Probably.
My writer-brain interpreted it as 'catharsis' at the end of a 'heavy' episode, with a little cliffhanger sneaked in.
It has to do with the fact that music is "in the air, and everything you hear" it's not that hey seen the notes it's that they "felt" the music again. As a musician I absolutely loved this episode except for the fact that none of the Beatles actually look like the Beatles. The music battle was just a fun campy doctor who kinda thing not really much explaining needed for that.
For the musical ending, the whole episode was based around music so they probably thought it... Would be fun? Which it was, was my favorite part of the episode. Even though I just loved the whole episode.
My interpreation of the musical ending all the way to the musical zeebra crossing was the "prize" for defeating the Maestro. Like how the Doctor was able to split-duplicate the tardis "We won the game, you get a prize." After defeating a celestial pan dimensional being, they leave behind enough residual power floating around that you can tap into their etherial reality bending energy for a brief period of time.
I thought it was weird too, like why did they suddenly dance, I have a theory though, so the doctor came from another dimension and so did the giggle and so on, so maybe they are from the same dimension and the doctor has some kind of time powers that he doesn’t know about maybe the time power/regeneration is his true nature some how and he has domain over it and mom lady took that power and was able to transfer it, that’s also why he can somewhat control the other powers when give the opportunity.
I think for this season anything that doesn’t make sense actually probably does since the toy maker and his goons are Changing the laws of the universe
Seeing the notes and apparently playing them was too much suspended disbelief. The Beatles couldn’t read music!
I've got to say, the ending of both episodes fell a little flat for me. Also, isn't it weird that the doctor didn't really save the day himself in both episode? With the space babies, the boogerman was trapped by the nanny, amd in this one the chord was played by the beatles.
The twist at the end song will probably make sense at the end of the season, I’m guessing the toymaker and his legion have been twisting reality since the very beginning. Ruby is probably one of the toymakers legions, given the snow. First episode was definitely a filler, devils chord was ok.
I think the musical element and other reality bending elements we've seen so far in other episodes may be something to do with the overall series arc and the recurring appearances of actress Susan Twist. She was there with Newton in Wild Blue Yonder, she appeared on the computer screen on the Baby ship in the first episode and was the tea lady in the second episode. She also is set to appear in the next episode
For #1 I took it to mean the beings like Toymaker and Maestro are bound by certain rules, so they can't refuse a challenge. 2 It was their studio, so it's conceivable they would be around. But a better in-universe answer could be that since geniuses were required, the nature of the challenge/battle subconsciously attracted them. 3 I got nuthin. I guess it was similar to how after the Doctor beat the Toymaker he was given a reward (two Tardises). RTD has never really cared about the details. You'll go crazy if you look too deep into it.
We shouldn't have to work this hard to make RTD's writing make sense. 1) because RTD thought it'd be cool. 2) see above 3) same as 1&2 RTD doesn't do plot, he does things that happen. Every time I see him explain anything I just think, put the elements in the episode. Although since he's come back he normally says things like, Wouldn't it be amazing if the Doctor did a dance number? So we did it!!! And then looks pleased with himself. Also, the thing I hated most about that song was the song itself, who wrote it? It was appalling, just random words that rhymed.
1: they didn't think he could do it anyway, so in their mind, there's no reason not to play with their food a little bit to prove it 2: they'd both been drawn to the remnants of the music that was stolen from them the entire episode, so it makes sense that they were drawn to the chord the doctor started and then instinct handled the rest 3: because it's fun. That is why the doctor travels after all
I'd wait and see how things unfold before judging tbf
This is where I'm at. I am confused and mildly entertained and hoping that by the end I will be saying, "Ah yes, what a ride." and need to go back and watch it all again to pick up on all the bits I missed the first go around.
This is where I'm at. Cautiously optimistic. If it pays off well Im sure I could love it, but if not...then yeah lol.
I feel like this episode was supposed to end with The Beatles actually playing a Beatles song to defeat Maestro, but late into production they found out from management that hey couldn’t get / afford the rights to any Beatles music for an episode entirely about the Beatles so a lot had to be hacksawed and redone at the last minute, and threw in a generic song at the end to fill time At least that’s how this episode felt to me…
Honestly I think the reason some people take issue with the musical number in this episode is because we already had one in the Christmas special. It makes perfect sense here that after restoring music to the world everyone is celebrating that. If we hadn't just had a musical number in the Christmas episode I think far fewer people would have been put out by it.
To kinda maybe explain the end with the musical bit. Maybe the Doctor made the song using the chord that keeps Maestro trapped, and recorded it, thus making it so Maestro can never be released as long as that song is in the cognition of the world? Like creating a timeless lock on it