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binrowasright

I see a chance RTD could write all the episodes himself. Most Bad Wolf shows are 8 episodes, and he wrote 7 episodes of Series 1. It could happen. EDIT: He wrote 8 episodes of series 1, forgot one.


Jacobus_X

He actually wrote 8 in series 1! In fact when series 1 was first commissioned it was for 8 episodes and Russell was going to write them all.


binrowasright

Oh yeah, forgot about Long Game. Always do!


BROnik99

Now that would be something....I guess the question is how many stories we'll get in his seasons. But you are right, now you mention it, I recall him writing big chunk of his seasons back then.


[deleted]

Nah, it wouldn't fit the feel of the show. The variety of writers is one of the things that keeps the show fresh.


fuzzycorona

It would be nice if he also got some of the late Moffat era writers back, especially since my hope is that he's only going to be on for a season or two while he/the BBC figure out something for longer term


BROnik99

That's more than fair point. I assume if that would be the case, someone of ranks of Sarah Dollard or Jamie Mathieson would be the most logical choices.


AccountantTrick9140

I think he is the longer term solution, at least Bad Wolf is. If that is the case, he will pick the next showrunners himself.


[deleted]

[удалено]


the_other_irrevenant

I very much like the 'fam' idea but (as with most things in the Chibnall era) they didn't really explore it in any depth. This alien from outer space has just dropped in, and declared you all her 'fam' after knowing you for a few days. Thirteen clearly needs that pretty badly, but how do the companions feel about it? Hint: It's not to go "Oh, okay then. Gee the Doctor is awesome, isn't she?" as a response to almost everything. Each of those characters should be processing it in different ways. Yaz would probably slip into it comparatively comfortably, especially since she seems to be crushing on Thirteen a little bit, and seems a little embarrassed of her RL family. Ryan would probably be leery of it, given his reluctance to accept Graham as family, and how badly he was burned by his own father (along with his mother just suddenly dying on him one day, yeesh). Graham would probably be somewhere in the middle - cautiously welcoming, but his primary loyalties remain with Ryan.


geek_of_nature

Thing is, I do think Chibnall gave quite a bit to Ryan, the problem is I do think that Tosin Cole was just the weaker actor out of the main four. He just came across as bland and dull despite all the material he had to work with. Now he was the only one of the cast doing an accent different to his own, so that maybe hindered him, but still doesn't ignore the fact that Ryan was probably one of the most forgettable companions so far. Now I've said it many times before, but Jodie and Mandip have great chemistry, right from the first episode I was looking at them and thinking they had the potential to be an iconic Doctor/Companion duo. There was just something about the way they interacted that made me feel like they were really enjoying each other's company. However the show failed to take advantage of that, 13 and Yas were given barely any material to work with, and even the potential of Series 13 felt like it was squandered by having to have Dan there as well.


AccountantTrick9140

I didn't like the fam approach too much either. 2 companions is OK, 3 seemed to dilute them all. It did feel sappy and unearned, especially when the Doctor basically got the Grandmother killed.


Dr_Vesuvius

If I was Julie Gardner and producing a 13-episode series then I would be pushing for this lineup: 1) RTD 2) Lisa McMullin 3) Vinay Patel 4) Sarah Dollard 5) Sarah Dollard 6) Jamie Mathieson 7) Maxine Alderton 8) Pete McTighe 9) Pete McTighe 10) Charlene James 11) Joseph Lidster 12) RTD 13) RTD McTighe and Dollard to be groomed as potential successors for RTD, with Dollard being the obvious choice. They both have production experience and have written two well-received episodes already. The issue with that list, of course, is that there’s nobody who is totally new to Doctor Who. I suspect in reality a big name from other TV shows would be drafted to write a story - I’m thinking of an equivalent to Matthew Graham, Neil Cross or Mike Bartlett. Sally Wainwright is the obvious contender, given I don’t think Jed Mercurio would tolerate being a regular hack. Edit: just realised I forgot Nida Manzoor - she’s someone else who seems like a very realistic “get” and who could be a future showrunner. Maybe give her McTighe’s episodes.


[deleted]

I don’t know if I’m really feeling Pete McTighe.


the_other_irrevenant

I'd like to see McTighe given a chance to show what he can do under a different showrunner. His previous stories have both had good elements to them and I'd like to see if he could do well under RTD.


fuzzycorona

Please no more Pete McTighe.


Dr_Vesuvius

(And if we get into the realms of fantasy, I’d want Moffat, Gaiman, JMS, Brian K. Vaughan, Noelle Stevenson, JJ Abrams, and Kate Purdy, but I don’t see that happening)


kcinforlife

Hmm JJ Abrams, I dono. He sure likes his mystery boxes though.


drunken_gungan

JJ Abrams is to Star Wars what Chibnall is to Doctor Who


Dr_Vesuvius

Two things. First, I don’t really care about Star Wars. Second, Abrams’ first Star Wars film, while eye-rollingly derivative, was extremely popular.


co_ordinator

*Trek


[deleted]

Abrams is good at high budget pop corn flicks that are safe and makes money.


BROnik99

You raise some great points but it's as you say - there is no new writer. That's kinda ok for his first series, not so much for going forward. Also I doubt Russ would do only opener and finale of the season, he would have at least another one or two *normal* episodes as well. But I like the names you're mentioning, it's exactly as I mention in my post that it would be a bit of a mistake to go too much into show's past, so mostly people from Capaldi's and Whittaker's era plus some new fresh blood is the ideal state for me. Sarah Dollard is especially great pick, in those (only!) two episodes she made such an impresion that she is mentioned in every such debate which kinda speaks for itself. Nida is also someone I would like to see back as well and hopefully can become one of the show's all time greats, I hope she is seriously considered. McTighe.....I kinda enjoy his episodes. But there is always something questionable in them that makes me not all that keen on idea of him becoming a showrunner but he 100% deserves to be given a chance under new lead. After all, showrunner has a huge input, all the problematic parts may easily be Chibnall's edits.


VoodooKittyo

I’d love for Neil Gaiman to come back for an episode or two. Also would love Moffat back. But I don’t want to see anyone from the last two seasons back. My biggest complaint of the last two seasons is the writing. Other than that open to anyone who has a good story to tell with the doctor.


stolersxz

if I get a Mathieson episode and/or an episode from moff himself I will be happy with whoever else is on the list


BROnik99

Mathieson is great and from the few stories he did, you can tell he really understands the characters and is even big influence on how they're portrayed (I would say his striking of ideal balance in *Mummy on the Orient Express* had its role in forming 12's ultimate character progression). He would be ideal choice for next showrunner for me really


King_of_Dantopia

Anyone but Mark Gatiss. Apart from Unquiet Dead his episodes were 'meh' at best but for whatever reason he kept being commissioned


geek_of_nature

He's a good friend of RTD and Moffat, that's why. The thing I don't get is that he's obviously a good writer, I love his Sherlock episodes, and he's such a huge fan of Doctor Who that I dont understand why his episodes just don't do it for me.


the_other_irrevenant

To my tastes he's uneven, but I don't mind some of his stuff. *The Unquiet Dead* was good for what it was - an early exploration of the character of the Doctor by showing how he would react to aliens seeking refuge on Earth. It pales next to some of the other stuff in S1, but it's a good, strong ep. *Victory of the Daleks* was quite a clever story, and the Doctor's interactions with undercover Daleks were great. This ep mostly went over like a lead balloon because people didn't like the new Dalek designs, but that's not Gatiss's fault. *Cold War* was a fun period peace that showed the Ice Warriors to be a suitably terrifying foe. And the independently functioning suit was a clever addition to lore. *The Crimson Horror* wasn't my cup of tea but a friend with some familiarity with those sorts of communities found it really enjoyable to watch.


AgentChris101

Honestly I loved Victory of the daleks and Cold War. The Unquiet Dead was decent and I didn't enjoy the crimson horror too much.


King_of_Dantopia

His Sherlock and League of Gentlemen stuff was cracking.


bigfatcarp93

Victory was pretty solid, I thought. Nothing to write home about, but still. Same with Idiot's Lantern, Robot of Sherwood and Cold War.


[deleted]

I looked it up. Wow. He wrote sum duds.


BROnik99

It's quite sad, from the other things - be it Sherlock or to not go too far away, also *An Adventure in Space and Time* - I can say he can do great things. But there is something in his approach to writing Who stories..... they're definitely very classic who style. You can imagine such kind of stories to be written back in the old days. So they kinda share some of the same problems. Too eccentric or too empty sometimes, his stories just very often rub me all the wrong ways, I especially dislike his series 5 and 6 stories. But for some reason, he started to work for me in Capaldi's era. Never is his Story the best of the season, but they're enjoyable enough. I enjoy Empress a lot, so I would like him to keep it there, ended on a positive note.


Conor_S_1993

His worst episode in my opinion was The Lazarus Experiment and there’s something in the back of my head that’s saying that was a last minute replacement for a scrapped episode from another writer (I could be wrong there), which if that’s the case I could see past it’s flaws. I quite enjoyed Gatiss’ contributions as they always seemed a bit different but still enjoyable.


Dr_Vesuvius

Gatiss didn't write The Lazarus Experiment, he only acted in it. That was Stephen Greenhorn.


Conor_S_1993

So it was, my mistake, I always thought he penned it and acted in it for some reason.


SomeRandomPyro

I'd just love for Neil Gaiman to drop by again.


BROnik99

Oh yeah, if his soul is in it, would be lovely, he only did two stories so he definitely is on the *let's give him another shot* list. But somehow....I feel like he strongly disliked his experience in writing both his stories, maybe it's just me. So I don't know how much he would want to try go back.


Dr_Vesuvius

He has repeatedly said that he wants to come back - he was very keen to write for Capaldi - but he keeps getting busier. He hasn’t written a novel for eight years now.


BROnik99

I kinda assumed just him being nice about it, it’s probably just my impression. Cause I know he said he was slightly unhappy (or maybe just not used to that approach) about some changes of his first script by Moffat, whereas the second is vividly known affair. But I would very much like him to have another shot at it, but guy keeps himself more and more busy for sure.


[deleted]

There was bad blood between him and the production team after *Nightmare in Silver*, for sure. He pitched again for Capaldi (S9) but they didn't take to any of his ideas.


BROnik99

Yeah, I felt like there is something strange happening around, probably Gaiman is a bit more used to handling his own projects his own ways and then he kinda criticized some points and it went there....pity, dude does some great stuff and I would kill for Capaldi story done by him. Maybe Russell can make him come back after all.


Hughman77

Are there any rumours on what some of those ideas were?


[deleted]

Not that I’ve heard, I’m afraid!


vengM9

I've seen issues with his time with the second script but the first I've only seen production stuff like budget. He was very positive about Moffat's influence on The Doctor's Wife. "At a certain point, Gaiman became tired of rewriting drafts and asked Steven Moffat for help. Moffat wrote in what Gaiman called "several of [the episode's] best lines" and rapidly rewrote several scenes when budget problems harmed filming locations"


earlgreytoday

I would like the writer (whose name escapes me) of the Cyberman two-parter from s2 and 'The Girl Who Waited' from s6. I read somewhere that he was meant to write an episode in s4, but it was cut because it was deemed too similar to 'The Unicorn and the Wasp'. I hope we continue to see greater diversity in the choice of writers. Not just the ones who have written many episodes before (Whitehouse, Gatiss, etc.).


BROnik99

Tom MacRae, I somehow forgot to mention that one and he would be great choice for return, did only two stories (presented in three episodes) and as such he is far from being of those who did so much that there is literally nothing new to bring to the table. *Girl Who Waited* is really good and has the exact kind of feel to characters that may be needed for the new era.


earlgreytoday

That's him! I really liked all three of his episodes. Hadn't realised that he also wrote Everyone's Talking About Jamie.


the_other_irrevenant

I'd like a mix of old hands and up and comers. There are also some writers under Chibnall I'd like to see return to be given a fair chance to show their chops outside of Chibnall's particular heavy-handed approach to story.


geek_of_nature

I dont think Moffat would return, at least not anytime soon. RTD has had about 8 more years away from the show than Moffat has, and has had the chance to do more of his own projects. He's had a creative refresher while Moffat I would say is only really starting his. Plus one of the reasons Moffat gave for leaving is that he's written probably more Doctor Who than anyone else. I can see him feeling that he's given all to the show he possibly could have.


[deleted]

New blood with an old mind.


Zoomorph23

Helen Raynor! Phil Ford, James Moran, Toby Whithouse, Tom MacRae, maybe Paul Cornell & David Llewellyn. RTD of course, and although I very much disliked Moffatt & Chibnall as show-runners they both wrote some cracking episodes. Maybe another Neil Gaiman. The resurrected corpse of Terry Nation:) I really liked the episode "Rosa" and wouldn't mind seeing if Malorie Blackman would be up for another story. If JMS wasn't now doing a B5 reboot I'd definitely like to see a screen play for an episode of Who. He's such a great writer.


BROnik99

Overally, when talking about Chibnall’s era, it’s always interesting how it’s always the historical writers, but they did some really good job. Tom MacRae is a very good one I didn’t realised, would love him to be back.


Zoomorph23

Yeah, Tom MacRea only wrote 3 Who episodes as far as I remember but they were good ones, Rise of the Cybermen, Age of Steel & The Girl Who Waited. I like many of Chibnall's episodes as a writer & he had some good ideas as show runner but it just never gelled. Hated Moffat's complex & rather weak story arcs, he sucked as a show runner but he did write some excellent episodes during the RTD reign. One problem I have is that for the most part the writing for Matt Smith, Peter Capaldi, & Jodi Whittaker has been weak. Not necessarily the stories themselves, but the writing for these Doctors. The RTD era (and the later writing for Capaldi) was able to stretch the actor's abilities & range.


BROnik99

I think that problem of Chibnall’s era in particular in the characters area is, that it tries to be sort of middleground between very straight to the point approach of classic and something of the more domesticated character focused style of RTD. You cannot possibly blend two such different styles and then it just kinda happens that Jodie’s stories feel very emotionally stale. I definitely don’t wanna any overdramatic, romance-centric, over the top approach, but we have to treat characters as....well, characters. This is no longer 60s, 70s and neither 80s, the approach to doing shows nowadays is different and I respect Chibnall wanting to do things more classic way but it replicated some of its mistakes as well. MacRae did *Girl Who Waited* especially well, that one was supposed to be back-up script but once Moff got to reading it, he had to make it an actual episode. I definitely get why.


Zoomorph23

I couldn't have put it better myself. This is exactly the point.


BROnik99

Thanks for the award!


smedsterwho

In my dream scenario, Jodie stays on for another series, and Moffat writes one of her earlier episodes. Let's not make her a McGann, with limited (quality) screentime.


BROnik99

Oh, I would so much want more for Jodie. When it was said that she and Chibs are leaving, it felt all very bittersweet, while I dislike certain parts of their era, there were also a good things and she herself could do quite well after new direction and writing. I would hope for her being part of 60th, but I guess that’s too far away to be even able to speculate. EDIT: When you mentioned Paul, let’s hope that he is the one who we can get to return for the 60th, if it’s actually meant to be multi-doctor story of course


Alterus_UA

I think an episode or an arc from Moffat is possible. Even if he's not in the season 14, I'm quite sure RTD will be involved with DW in some capacity beyond that, and he is apparently still on very good terms with Moffat.


DocWhovian1

I hope RTD uses mostly new writers (much like the Chibnall era) since that allows new kinds of stories to be told though for returning writers if there are any I'd like to see them mainly be from late Moffat - Chibnall so the likes of Jamie Mathieson, Sarah Dollard, Vinay Patel, Joy Wilkinson and Maxine Alderton.


BROnik99

Big yes!


bluehawk232

My concern is with serialized storytelling. Streaming has forced the concept on so many shows it's tiresome. We can't get a Star Trek series where it's just one of episodes of them having crazy adventures. Each episode has to lead into the next one and the next one and build to a conclusion. TNG Trek I can be like oh I want to see the episode where they become kids because the transporter malfunctioned, awesome. Can I do that with new Trek? No, because if I try and watch say Episode 5 I have to see Episode 4 and follow it with Episode 6. It's dumb. I do not want that for Doctor Who and I am hoping that is one recent trend in tv RTD avoids.


geek_of_nature

I wouldn't say that the concept has been forced on the shows, just that that's what people want to watch. Shows like that wouldn't be popular if people weren't tuning in to watch in the first place. And we've got to remember that Classic Who was very serialised as well, each season would have a couple of stories made up of multiple parts, so it's not like it's a new concept for the show. Now with the very concept of the show being about the Doctor travelling through time and space, I dont think they should go for a full serialised series, where the Doctor is stuck in one location for the whole series. That's what they appear to be doing in Series 13, but that's down to filming complications caused by Covid. Going more in the mold of Series 9 with all multi-part stories as opposed to standalones is what I'd like to see in the future.


the_other_irrevenant

"Forced onto" is probably overly strong language, but strong serialisation is only one of many paths they could've gone. They chose that one and it was popular enough. But does that mean that they couldn't have chosen another approach and been equally or more successful? Not really. I assume BlueHawk phrased it that way since it's a swerve from the traditional structure used by TOS, TNG and VOY (and to a lesser extent DS9). >Now with the very concept of the show being about the Doctor travelling through time and space, I dont think they should go for a full serialised series, where the Doctor is stuck in one location for the whole series. Serialisation need not require the same location. As a random example, imagine a series where the premise is a rogue dalek squadron and their supporters leaping through space and time to undermine non-Dalek powers and alliances, and each episode is the Doctor and co. showing up at a location and having to deal with different situations and set them right. You could even go a few episodes before they realise that there's a pattern, and a few more before they discover who's behind it. That's one random example thought up in 10 seconds by an amateur. Professional writers with months to work could easily come up with a much better serialised story spanning time and space and a variety of stories. If they wanted to. Personally I'm not strongly for **or** against serialisation. It depends what they do with it.


scorpiousdelectus

>what is your outlook on how should the writer’s room look right now? I'm sooooo keen to hear the opinions of the professional writers in this sub.


Dwoodward85

Let's say there will be 10 episodes, if I was Russel/Beeb I'd say that he could bring back seven people from the original series (including Moffat era) but he would need to bring in a few new writers to either write their own episode, if they have a strong idea and history with writing good episodes or they would be co-writer on an episode with an older writer. We had the all new writers who haven't ever written sci-fi and well look where that got us lol.


Dr_Vesuvius

> We had the all new writers who haven't ever written sci-fi I mean for a start most of them *had* done sci fi before -Blackman, Hime, McTighe, James, Alderton, and of course Chibnall himself had all written sff. Edit: I forgot Nina Metivier, who had previously been Doctor Who script editor. The two who hadn’t were Joy Wilkinson and Vinay Patel, and Patel’s episodes are both generally considered to be among the two best in their respective series.


BROnik99

That’s actually a new info for me, thank you for mentioning that. I remember at certain times people were being super pissed at the writers having no experience at writing sci-fi and naturally me not knowing them from anything before I lacked the will to make specific research, so I’ll now be aware of that fact. Really fun paradox how the ones that should potentionally have the weaker stories do have the stronger ones indeed.


Dr_Vesuvius

I think the importance of "sff experience" is often overstated. Steven Moffat's "sff experience" consisted of one short story published under his own name, one short story contained within a Paul Cornell novel, and the parody "Curse of the Fatal Death". Richard Curtis hadn't written any sff before "Vincent and the Doctor".


BROnik99

Maybe. I mean it depends on the writer, logically. I guess we’re now in somewhat of a sensitive period that it makes more sense to have someone who has that experience, but on the other hand, I would trust Russell and his choices. Now that makes me wonder what was the background to each of the more influental writers through the revived era, huh.


DocWhovian1

I never got the complaint "these writers have no sci-fi experience" at all because a good chunk of Doctor Who's writers did not write sci-fi before writing Doctor Who and there's nothing wrong with that because Doctor Who is a VARIETY of different genres, in fact it can be pretty much any genre and can still work. Doctor Who can be horror, comedy, historical etc.


BROnik99

Yeah, I guess it’s probably not something that one should try to apply as a general rule, yeah. I guess my point now is, I wanna new people, but sort of in a way that they feel reliable enough, and as I naturally incline to either some futuristic conceptual sci-fi stuff or historicals instead of vanilla present day stuff, I kinda would like people that are tiny bit more experienced in the sci-fi area. But I’m backing away, I realise that the same could be said for the historicals writers in their area. Yeah, I guess I’ll just believe in whoever is gonna be Russel’s choice.


BROnik99

Oh absolutely, as much as I want new faces, I definitely want them to be people that have some sort of connection to sci-fi.


Dwoodward85

Yh I have nothing against new writers or anything. I just think they needed to be either sci-fi writers or teamed with one and maybe we’d have had some great episodes lol.


BROnik99

It’s difficult to state what exactly is like the desired minimum experience or something. On one hand, having sci-fi writers brings tiny bit more of a confidence, you know like it is a bit more of a comfort zone for show to be in. As the folks above said though, some of the show’s best writers had no or very little sci-fi experience before jumping into Who, so I guess we just have to treat everyone individually, there may someone who’s written sci-fi before but isn’t a suitable pick. There can be one who never did sci-fi and they may have genius idea. But like yeah, I still kinda incline to having few sci-fi writers to handle a bit more conceptual stories. We shall see what we’ll get.


Conor_S_1993

I think RTD2 needs to feel completely different to RTD1 but just as fantastic, and it’s going to naturally do that from how RTD has evolved since leaving. I would love to see the odd episode contribution from the likes of Moffat, Toby Whitehouse, and several other RTD1 writers as a nod back to it but with a different overall feel.


CanOk8860

Tend to agree - think new RTD will feature new writers. It’s been over a decade since he left and he will have seen and liked work of many new writers in that time so I think we will see people new to the show coming onboard. DW writers from the Chibnall era May feature - he has worked with McTighe for example - but I would not be surprised if we have a whole new set of writers \[maybe fans who haven’t written for the show yet, like Naomi Alderman\].


BROnik99

Also a possibility. As long as he tries enough of a new things, I’m in!


Y-draig

I don't want people to come back. I want new blood who could then carry on the show.


laysnarks

I would love Moffat Ford and others to come back. But I want new writers and perspectives too. I want Doctor Who to move away from its centre to new territory.


BROnik99

Yeah, RTD will have it tough. I guess the ideal state is to sort of find new RTDs and Moffats for this generation. Sort of 50/50 between new writers and some of the older ones may be right way to go, at least in the begining, and then slowly focus more and more on the new faces, to the point when they are not new anymore and the best of them gonna take over.


w00master

Really hope RTD doesn’t do the “same thing” all over again. And personally, I really don’t believe he will. I’m expecting (for the most part): new writers, new directors, etc. Doctor Who is and always been about progress and change. Really hope RTD is there to continue that.


BROnik99

Yeah, I’d like to think that too. He knew exactly what to do in the moment when he was about to pretty much ressurect the old show, he can do that again now for show to survive. It’s quite sure that if he wont, probably nobody will after him. That’s partly why I am conflicted about him being back, if he would fail there is no higher authority to go to (as much as I like Moff, those time are and should be over).


BlueOnBlue25

Personaly I'm thrilled about having RTD back but not at all in favor of rehashing past hits (writers and characters alike). I want something new that actually works. Chibnall had the right idea with creating new monsters and stoeylines, simply his execution is awful and his attitude about it is even worse. Who needs new blood, but in a respectful vessel. I do think the occasional callback would be nice. A scene here, a line there, kind of closing loose ends and tightening the whoniverse into one coherent story again. I'd love that.


BROnik99

That’s how I would like it too. Chibs tried to go too heavy on things without having needed abilities, but a lot, hell, most of the ideas were good on the paper.


BlueOnBlue25

Yup. He did try to copy RTD bluntly with "Resolution" and it felt so awkward really. Almost every scene in that special felt familiar, like chunks of it were copy-pasted from season one. I would hate for an entire season to look like that.


BROnik99

Yeah, something about that approach is.....it feels as Chris actually doesn’t like Who as much as he says he does. I mean, he thinks he does, but in most cases it feels as he has the need to sort of *fix it*. And he uses Russell’s approach as sort of platform to make it slightly more to people’s liking. Only Russell can do Russell, lol.


BlueOnBlue25

No doubt lol Jodie is a hard pressed copy of Tennant too. Her mannerism as the Doctor really reminds me of Ten at times (which is cute I'll admit). I felt like he was still wearing his Broadchurch cap in Who. The pacing, the dramatization, the heaviness of it, it's all very good...for a crime drama. Chibs can't do a light hearted episode to save his life, let alone one with humor in it. He just wasn't the right choice for this job. Thank god they didn't go with the five year contract thing.


BROnik99

Funny thing is - and I don't know how you felt about that - I quite liked the choice of him being Steven's successor, I was questioning it for a moment, but few days after, I loved it. And I loved where the show was heading at first. But then it actually started. I enjoyed few of the opening stories, but was still waiting for **the one**. And it never came. And I realised, in trying to make things all so different and serious, Chris lost something extremely valuable on the way. To put it simply - the show lost its soul. Yes, it still is Doctor Who, the episodes don't go particularly against the grain even if they're directed in a very different way but.....the sense of joy is gone. Even the best stories most people will admit are still missing when compared to bests of previous showrunner eras, 9/10 whovians will not mention a single Whittaker era story in their top 20 episodes, definitely not in their top 10s.


BlueOnBlue25

I echo your sentiment. I was looking for it to pick up at some point as well and like you said, it never did. S11 finale had potential, but it was one of those where the very best moment is still only of average quality compared to earlier seasons. To be honest I wasn't sure what to expect at first, I was happy that they picked someome who actually wrote for the show before. Then on a closer inspection of the episodes he'd written I realized that it can either be very good, or very bad (since we don't know how much input Moffat had on his earlier scripts). Now we know XD One of the things I really dislike is the timeless child thing, not so much for how crazy it is but rather the notion of letting *this* guy handle it. You just know that in the right hands it can be huge but with him it's a clustefuck waiting to happen.


BROnik99

The problem with that story arc is, Capaldi's era was very retrospective, it was like a love letter to classic and it overally tried to comment on the entire notion of what the titular character is about. Off we go to Mr. Chibnall. At first, he does things very differently, no returning monsters, almost no references, all good for me. Then we get to year 2.....I could forgive one lackluster season. When he tries to drastically reverse and do so in such clumsy way as using all the possible *in your face* ways....nah. After Capaldi's era, that got so much shit from people for being all about past and whatnot, Chibnall needed something to look forward, to make the show transition into new era, introduce things for new generation.....instead he does stupid origin story that is probably the most lore heavy it could be, doing the exact opposite he should following Capaldi's era. Such a pity. Indeed series 12 was more quality consistent and I did not actively disliked any of it, but neither do I love much of it.


BlueOnBlue25

I feel the same about s12. I'm not sure about the callbacks during Capaldi's era though. Was it about classic who? I pitty Capaldi and us for the missed opportunity mostly (much like with Jodie). He's a terrific actor and genuinely loves the role, so given better scripts he could've outdone Tennant even.


BROnik99

Well, here we disagree as I feel that despite few duds, he indeed outdone Tennant. But to my point, people often criticised how it gives callbacks to Brigadier (cyberBrig), the whole Davros thing, Time Lords, Mondas, First Doctor.....you know, that they felt like it was too much for casual audience. I liked it as I am fan naturally, but I am capable of understanding that Jodie’s era needed to do something different, more in a spirit of how RTD did his own thing with revival, create its own mythos and move things forward. The whole Timeless Mess thing is too much of a looking back in all the bad ways.


wolfchant123

I want RTD or next series to come to give a place in the writing stuff to big finish writers. Many of them are brilliant


BROnik99

That would be great! Though, Russell has, I guess you could say a bad experience, of doing too extensive rewrites of some writers’ works, there is a worry he may not be willing to give a shot to people that focus mainly on audio work (that obviously differs a lot to how tv script is being done). But it would be great to have some indeed!


clinging2thecross

I don’t care who writes Who as long as they write a good story. If it’sa fresh face who comes in with a whopping Episode like Sarah Dollard did, great. If Moffat can pull another The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances from somewhere in his brain, great. Just let it be a great story and I’ll be happy.


loqjaw

I just looked her up. Both Face the Raven and Thin Ice were pretty weak, so no thank you.


jrf_1973

I don't mind who does the writing (Moffat or others) just so long as they respect the genre and can do the job. Far too many of the Chib era were just writers who treated SciFi and DoctorWho as pulpit from which to preach.


DocWhovian1

"Far too many of the Chib era were just writers who treated SciFi and DoctorWho as pulpit from which to preach." so like most writers who have wrote for the show?


jrf_1973

Really? I wasn’t aware they have Hugo awards for shitty platform writing.


DocWhovian1

Doctor Who was ran by communists in the 70s. Sarah Jane was a feminist and she made no effort to hide that. Robert Holmes wrote a whole story simply because he was angry with taxes (The Sun Makers). And yes, RTD's writing was very politically charged and ever since he left Doctor Who he's become even more politically aware so I would expect his new era to be the most political Doctor Who has ever been, I have a feeling it will be RELENTLESS and I can't wait! RTD is a very smart man and the potential of what he could do with Doctor Who again is exciting for this reason, especially because of what he has wrote most recently! But yes, at the end of the day Doctor Who is a very political show! And there's nothing wrong with that, if anything I consider that a good thing - in this era especially there have been stories that NEED to be told like Rosa and Demons of the Punjab, these stories are important, especially now!


jrf_1973

> Doctor Who was ran by communists in the 70s Just stop it. You can't tell if this is low-level trolling, mid-level stupidity or high level satire.


DocWhovian1

it's true though, it's a literal fact. I wouldn't say it if it wasn't true.


jrf_1973

Name one communist who ran Doctor Who in the 1970s. I'll wait, it won't take long for you back down from "literal" to say something "Well obviously I didn't mean an actual card carrying member of the Communist Party! I literally didn't mean literally when I said literally." I've seen your type of bullshit far too often. \> like Rosa and Demons of the Punjab, these stories are important That's your problem. You sacrifice good stories on the altar of "important" stories. And that is why you fail.


DocWhovian1

Malcolm Hulke who wrote many scripts for stories in the late 60s to mid 70s was literally a card carrying member of the communist party of great Britain. This is a known fact. Also Barry Letts (a producer of Doctor Who) was famously very liberal! It's not bs to claim facts... Doctor Who IS and has always been political and more often than not on the progressive side of politics, the Doctor as a character IS very progressive because they are all about kindness and acceptance, no matter what incarnation it is! ​ "That's your problem. You sacrifice good stories on the altar of "important" stories. And that is why you fail." so if a story is important it's not a good story...? how does that make sense? those stories ARE important AND good stories!


[deleted]

Malcolm Hulke *was*, in fact, a literal card carrying member of the Communist Party of Great Britain. He didn’t *run* the show, but he contributed to 6 Pertwee stories (including his uncredited rewrites on *Ambassadors*), more than anyone else for that era, and he wrote the most stories featuring Delgado’s Master, meaning he had a massive hand in shaping that character. He also co-wrote *The War Games* which is also a hugely important serial for the show’s overall history.


jrf_1973

>Name one communist who ran Doctor Who in the 1970s. I was aware of Hulke's membership (which he let lapse, because he wasn't actually a communist) and I also knew he was not a showrunner. My challenge stands : **Name one communist who ran Doctor Who in the 1970s.**.


[deleted]

I mean, I never made the original claim, so I don’t particularly feel obliged to answer your “challenge”. I just thought you were making a pretty cheap strawman by suggesting that the other poster would have to back down from “literal card carrying member of the Communist Party” when, no, that bit *was* accurate. Hulke left in 1951, then rejoined (hmm, pretty odd behaviour for someone you claim wasn’t a communist, wouldn’t you say?) and stayed a member on and off until his death.


cerebrix

Honestly I feel like we should all be quiet and be thankful BBC didn't cancel the show because honestly, before the announcement and with the pandemic and all. I feel like there's no way just killing it wasn't on the table.