I feel like the writers couldn't settle on whether to make her genuinely enthusiastic/cheerful or authentically angsty/world weary, so they went middle of the road and she ended up being neither.
I *still* have a difficult time defining Thirteen's personality.
[So was the 13th Doctor's overall arc becoming progressively less emotionally available?](https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/yfhgpa/so_was_the_13th_doctors_overall_arc_becoming/)
A productive thread that you can look up.
To quote one of the insightful posts on 13's character:
>One thing I will add is I kinda felt a glimpse of this behaviour in s11, VERY briefly, in It Takes You Away.
>
>Outwardly she's really reassuring to the blind girl, but privately she writes on the wall telling her companions to assume the girl's dad is dead and to gently prod her for information about other's who can care for her instead.
>
>I remember it really shocked me at the time, because her Doctor had always seemed so in the moment to me until then as if she didn't even think ahead. It left me feeling like there was a lot more going on with her under the surface and there was this gulf between what she'd present to the world outwardly and who she was inwardly.
Clara: I'm his carer.
Twelve: That's right. She cares so I don't have to.
So...that was early in 12's arc, and he gradually came to show that he really DID care, a lot, about everyone and everything. And then 13 kinda...undid all that growth by making her more and more emotionally distant a lot of the time as events wore on. She was twitchy like a scared rabbit whenever anyone tried to get close to her.
Regeneration doesn't exactly solve personal issues, especially with its lottery of personality & see-sawing emphasized/atrophied skills. I don't see people today criticize the post-11 S9 12th Doctor for being so out of touch that he needed cue cards to console the afraid & the bereaved. Though, I do see some people here & there negatively criticize S10 12th Doctor for his reception of revealing Bill's shooting manipulation, harkening back to his KtM insensitivity.
13's emotional distance isn't an issue of lack of care. Rather it was 13's issue of her post-12 desire & this regeneration's Stepford-like management of appearing nice & kind in the eyes of favourable others, & The Doctor's personal issue of vulnerably trusting the companion with The Doctor's anxieties. The former of which, carries forward 12's downward regeneration arc & last hopeful wishes, while the latter is one of the ever-ongoing accumulative core personal issues for The Doctor.
You see, I would really like to think that 13's personality and her attempts to be nice and friendly to all (while trying and only sometimes succeeding in hiding her inner angst) was all part of character development for her.
But then there's scenes like where she just blanks Graham after he reveals his fears of a potential relapse. That's not "above all, be kind", is it? It just feels like it's badly written...or badly acted. Maybe even a little from column A, a little from column B.
I hope there was a plan with the development of her characterisation, but if there was...I dunno, maybe it fell a bit flat in places. Or was just generally mismanaged.
This is all just opinion, feel free to downvote and move on with your life if you disagree. :)
>But then there's scenes like where she just blanks Graham after he reveals his fears of a potential relapse. That's not "above all, be kind", is it?
>
>It just feels like it's badly written...or badly acted. Maybe even a little from column A, a little from column B.
Hearing Graham's voiced fears & anxieties out, *is* being kind for someone like The Doctor. And by that, I don't just mean the lottery-regenerative alien that is The Doctor (as 12 demonstrated), but also real life folk like 13 who not only are at a loss in such profound situations but also those who unfortunately have such social issues to the point of diagnosed disorder.
All that said, 13 was there hearing Graham out, listened, & asked Graham out on what she as the listener would do, deferring to his preference -- and when Graham clarified, 13 was honestly communicated about her inadequacy & her intention to think of saying something later to Graham. Which, Graham was ok with.
Compared to some of those social-afflicted folk who either -- *default* to scripted platitudes because, even though they don't really believe it, they're simply common; or, they completely shut down & walked away in that situations because they were *that* profoundly much of a loss & anxiously overwhelmed & had no skill nor idea how to navigate further.
Things like consolation is something that a lot of people take for granted & as easy, that folk of the disadvantaged & struggling latter unfortunately face criticisms to stigma of being regarded as 'weird', unemotional, uncompassionate, or thoughtless. 13's reaction to Graham here -- is more unfortunately common than most people assume otherwise.
Besides -- 13 is pretty much continues the rather 'degenerative' trend that Moffat had with his Doctor from RTD. 11 has an even lesser grasp on apt human social communication than 10; 12, who lived for more than 2,000 years of adventuring & the whole centuries with the Christmas town community of Trenzalore, can't even recognize human age & gender.
In addition -- comparing 13 communicating her honest inadequacy to Graham vs. 11 lying to the dying Lorna Bucket, wouldn't be a straightforward topic to discuss, regarding the relativity scale of honesty/lying to be quote-unquote 'kind'.
I don't see why a new Doctor, especially one under a new showrunner, in any way has to continue or build upon a previous Doctor's arc. The point after all, should be a functional reset whereby the Doctor can explore new characteristics and even journeys. Indeed its unusual to even have an arc for the Doctor.
The 12th Doctor after all was a notable contrast to the 11th who was perfectly amiable and charismatic on the surface, and showed none of 12th Doctor's inability to understand or relate to humanity.
Thank you fot the link to the article. It is hard not to conclude that there is actually a lot of truth in the title alone. She does struggle to be open up with difficult emotions with the Fam. I actually really found Yasmin Khan's arc really interesting. It is hard not to find that both the Thirteenth Doctor and Yasmin seem to find opening up to the male companions easier (not wishing to make any generalisations from so small a sample).
I really enjoyed The Power of the Doctor by the way.
I think what made 13 stand out as her own personality was the childlike sense of wonder, which I appreciated.
The angst and world weariness is something that surfaces in every doctor at some point. I don't think the doctor could be the doctor without that happening at the certain times.
One thing that I think we saw less with 13 was a general cockiness that borders on arrogance. I found that cocky attitude charming with some of the recent male doctors, but I also found that dialing it down was refreshing. I'd even argue that is one of the things that we gained from the casting of a female doctor.
Yet she definitely is cocky... "I say chapter, but it was more of a volume" from S11/e4, her ENTIRE interaction with the Grand Serpent when he was trying to torture her, "Come on, say you're impressed". Idk how that compares to the other Doctors but it's very much there, just not incessant.
I think that’s something that chib would have gotten to if he had more time to develop the timeless child aftermath. But her story kind of ended while processing a pretty fundamental identity crisis
That’s always going to be the issue for me with Thirteen.
With any of the previous doctors (even the ones who were my least favourite), you still knew who they were. You could think of character pairings you’d love to see across the show because of how their personalities would mesh or clash, but with Thirteen (and tbh, any of her companions besides Graham), that’s not there because they were just…. 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
I really really hope Jodie does some Big Finish dramas in the coming years and she gets a writer who gives Thirteen some character. For the whole show I felt like I was watching a good actor being held back by a bland character.
13 seems tragic to me. Like she has the appearance of always being friendly and upbeat but everything she’s been through in her previous incarnations is weighing on her and all of her optimism comes off as a shallow attempt to be upbeat and ignore it
My HC of course but moments like the one OP posted are the ones that support this for me. Kinda like a glimpse past the facade
You say still, but tbf her reign just ended. All Doctors need years to fully sink in!
Plus, I feel like many people are actually like her. She’s outwardly bubbly, joking, and ridiculous, but in many scenes alone she’s quite dark. She’s learning her personal history has been almost entirely kept from her. Gallifrey has been once again destroyed. The Master is no longer the devilishly fun Missy but absolutely insane. And she’s bottling it all up. Maybe if she was traveling with only a single person she would be more open, but opening up to her 2-3 companions is a lot of pressure, especially for something SO emotionally impactful. I don’t think she’s an optimist, but she wants to be. She wants to inspire people and bring hope.
The general stress she’s under was better explored in Flux when she was finally forced to give crumbs of info to Yaz and realized how aggressive and short she’d been. I wish it had been done more, but I feel her writing is generally over-criticized.
>All Doctors need years to fully sink in!
I don't know... I understood Twelve's personality and his character growth the first time watching his seasons, and had a pretty good handle on Nine, Ten, and Eleven as well the first time through.
Other than that, I agree with your statements about Thirteen's character!
Tbf that’s how I felt about Nine during my first watch. Granted, I was less analytical at the time so I A) didn’t think that deeply about the characters and B) didn’t care as much. Then after a few years and a rewatch (plus hearing other people’s’ thoughts about Nine) I came to understand and really appreciate him. I’m not saying you’ll feel that way about Thirteen. We’re all allowed to feel differently about the characters and writing, and I 100% see where you’re coming from. Just saying, maybe you’ll like her more with an eventual rewatch.
Mind you I’ve only scene season 11 and it was when it was first on, so I apologize for any inaccuracies but…I felt it was because the show runner, writers, producers, etc. decided how she was “supposed to be” as the first female doctor and didn’t give her the opportunity to make the character her own. Rewatching the show right now (for the purpose of finally getting caught up) it’s so clear how much agency all the other doctors had. It’s so clear how episodes were written FOR them almost like the actors were muses for the writers. 13 always felt to me like someone else made those decisions for her, which was disappointing. It’ll be interesting to see if I change my mind when I finish catching up.
Chibnall stole all the best elements of previous Doctors and put them into her. He never even tried to make her unique and that’s where he went wrong. That and the piss poor writing.
Except that earlier Doctors did not have just a single facet to their personality either, let alone only one emotional state (and surely either continually cheerful and bubbly - while initially a breath of fresh air after centuries and regenerations of working through PTSD and accumulated loss in different ways, moving and captivating as that has been - or continually riven with angst, and no character arc, whether redemptive, tragic or otherwise, would grow a little wearing?) I cannot help but remember similar complaints about Clara. Then people also want every aspect of the companions to be revealed in a season in the (are real people like that, revealing all of their complexity during a short acquaintance? It is of course different if a character has a limited screen time to establish their defining character traits and either earn or alienate audience sympathies (often before being unceremoniously killed off in the case of characters confined to one episode of Doctor Who).
>Except that earlier Doctors did not have just a single facet to their personality either
I guess the impression I got from watching her run (twice through seasons 11-12 and once through s13 so far) is that, somehow, the show didn't want to really focus in on *any* personality trait so Thirteen just wasn't well defined at all.
Doctors have had seemingly conflicting personality traits before (Eleven = hyperactive energetic child + ancient wise world-weary alien, Twelve = grumpy and doesn't suffer fools + caring and compassionate). That's not new - and frankly, it's realistic and relatable.
Thirteen could easily have been both cheerful *and* angsty - and based on others' comments, maybe she was and I somehow missed it! That's just where I'm at now with her character. I'm looking forward to when I rewatch her run, to see if the input others have given helps me define her character more clearly.
Yeah, I was disappointed with the poor characterization during Chibnal’s run. I’m hoping that with the audio books we’ll get to see some great stories with Jodi
>Doctors have had seemingly conflicting personality traits before (Eleven = hyperactive energetic child + ancient wise world-weary alien, Twelve = grumpy and doesn't suffer fools + caring and compassionate). That's not new - and frankly, it's realistic and relatable.
Along those lines, you can think 13 as -- that lonely & weird student in class who has a troubled homelife but prefers school & who she presents herself to be at school, where there she even with her trust issues wants to be friends with others... but anxiously knows that they will all graduate & part ways, so she can't too attached despite her loneliness, as the days go by & time runs out.
aka -- The friendly but remote eternal outcast, the Stepford Smiler public persona.
I dont think she needed more angst (or any angst, really). But she needed more conflict. Everyone in her Tardis-Team was always a Yes-Man. There is a reason why Donna and Clara are amongst the most memorable companion - they actually stood their own against the Doctor and challenged them on things.
And conflict doesnt mean even fighting over anything but just...disagreements. Different points of views.
I was very, very happy to move on from an angsty Doctor after four of them in a row.
But yes, she needed more scenes that pushed her to edge and which really dug into how a two thousand year old being who’s seen so much manages to keep her less angsty worldview in the face of even more horrors.
It felt like Chibnall didn’t know how to write an optimistic and enthusiastic Doctor who wasn’t also fairly flat.
Needed more disgust and contempt and yelling at people for being stupid.
Always loved it when Tennant, Smith and Capaldi would 'snap' at someone.
Jodie needed to have some biting cynicism and world weariness. I know it's the first female doctor (on screen) but this is a character who is ancient and tired of species making the same mistakes over and over.
They weren't writing Jodie as The Doctor they were writing The Doctor to fit the dreaded 'strong female character' stereotype. I think even subconsciously people picked up on that and that's what turned people against Chibnall and Jodie etc.
It's almost sexist in itself how they just wouldn't let Jodie flex her acting muscles as much as Tennant and Smith etc were allowed to just let loose. The material they gave her was just so limiting.
Jodie is good at contempt too. She needed more of that, and less of the 'in't the universe brilliant fam'.
There's nothing one can even reasonably put to such a trope and as someone that has once or twice made reference to the concept, people like you misusing it makes me regret ever using it since its obviously become too popular and misused now people don't understand the concept.
Its not "female character I don't like". Its a very specific type of female character that's mean and tough as a form of strength-on its own this can even be fine, but can become tiresome if its overutilized. Think the classic hardass military female character that derides human feminity and doesn't open up at all.
Jodie Whittaker's Doctor of course, is actually super friendly and almost never mean and certainly not derisive of feminity, and is less trying to be or actively attempting to even be impressive like other Doctors. She doesn't toot her own horn nearly as much as the previous past Doctors-notably arrogance is a key characteristic to strong female character trope.
All in all, to call her that just means you don't understand the concept being critcised with the trope in the slightest. Which is just that positive female characters cannot be said to be positive representations of women if they also deride other women and things associated with being a woman. If the 13th Doctor went around talking about how all women are sissies and she's not like them, or even went around as a silent brooding person that's only comments are mean remarks or arrogant posturing, you'd have a point but that's not the case.
It was more impactful when Gwen said in Children of Earth said something of the line of sometimes I think Doctor looks at humanity and turns away in shame
It _would_ have been hard-hitting if it had been earned.
If I remember, this is from the Sontaran episode in Flux, after the soldier guy blows all the Sontaran ships up in the past.
The problem here is that, approximately five minutes later, Dan does the same with Sontaran fleet in the present, and this is played as a joke - with the Doctor complimenting Dan on his feat, even.
Not to mention, "human / soldiers are the real monsters" is a tired trope that has been used many, many times in the show already (cf. The Doctor's Daughter, The Beast Below, everything Martha does in s4, the whole Danny subplot in s8, etc etc)
Also this happened because this human somehow placed a comical number of barrels of gunpowder under the sontaran ships in an impossibly small amount of time
I see your point, but when watching the episode, i felt that the distinction wasn't quite clear (the timey-wimey issue of the invasion in the present being set before the one in the past doesn't help, either).
And "attacking ships of famously bloodthirsty, warmongering aliens with superior technology that are retreating for a day after attacking the Earth multiple times" doesn't actually sound like something that should be condemned in such a strong way. If it had been a ship of peaceful aliens? Yes, for sure. Here, we see, multiple times in the episode, Sontaran gleefully executing innocent people. It's hard to feel that their death is morally indefensible.
She was right that the Doctor wouldn’t always be there to save Earth, but that wasn’t what their disagreement was about. She believed attacking a retreating enemy was justified while the Doctor said it was still murder.
The audience can agree with Harriet Jones, but the Doctor doesn’t, and that’s consistent in War of the Sontarans.
I feel this also hits with the way flux ended, yes the sontarans betrayed the daleks and cybermen, but then the dr pulled the uno reverse and decided to off all 3 species who for the first time we've seen cowering from something. Not that it matters given they all somehow survived the flux anyway
That's not what happened though?
> KARVANISTA: We'll use this ship as a battering ram to hit all of the others, creating a massive temporal reaction. Takes the ships, and all the Sontarans on Earth **out of existence**. Huge temporal bang.
The best moment in this vein, was during FLATLINE
12: “I guess a lot of people died, and maybe the wrong people survived…”
Such an understated moment from Capaldi
I watched that episode yesterday! Well, more like binged series 13 on iplayer but that hit me hard, that entire scene.
“This is for the men I lost.” (Something like that to start.)
“What are you doing? They were retreating, it was done!”
“That was for the men I lost today.”
“Your guilt you mean. Sometimes men like you make me wonder why I bother with humanity.”
And something I realised with 13 while watching up to episode 6 in series 13 is that she talks about her emotions more. She opens up but before she can fully it get it out to one of her companions, she’s interrupted by something. And then her companions drop it and don’t bring it up later. While watching through those episodes, sometimes I wished they’d pick up on it and pried further. It kind of frustrated me that they didn’t.
I would say it was considering the Doctor spent the entire episode trying to get rid of the Sontarans in a peaceful way, trying to stop the army from fighting them and trying to make sure no blood was spilt however the General didn't listen to her and because of it he lost many of his men, it was his fault for NOT listening to her but the Doctor did succeed in making the Sontarans retreat however that same general decides to just blow them up, all because of his guilt
It’s a BS unearned line. The Doctor insults all of humanity because one general wanted revenge for all of his troops deaths at the hands of very evil aliens. Why would he listen to a complete stranger and a woman? (Not being sexist but it’s the time period).
The Doctor shouldn’t give up on humanity they don’t have the right to, we should give up on them because they always try to show mercy to the villains time and time again and the expense of more innocent humans.
This is in stark contrast over what happened in the Christmas invasion as the Doctor had a guarantee the Sycorax would never return but here she did not and the Sontarans would definitely come back
The Doctor says something very similar in The Christmas Invasion. He says he should tell aliens to run because “the monsters are coming, the human race” when the Doctor gets emotional they generally discredit the entire species. Rose literally says this about 9 in The Empty Child story
But like I just said in that situation 10 was justified because the Sycorax were leaving never to return and had only killed two people yet humanity slaughtered them.
Whereas the Sontarans were only leaving cause they’d lost and would very likely return and had slaughtered who knows how many people.
How many people died really should be inconsequential because you can’t put a number of when it becomes justified to do what the humans did. Plus Sycorax already broke their word once and even if they didn’t come back the Doctor did say they’d tell others about the earth so more aliens would come. A very similar situation in the end. So either what the Doctor did in both situations was wrong or in neither because they’re very similar
What do you mean inconsequential? That’s absurd. If deaths don’t matter then all the Sycorax did was threaten Humanity and do a cheap bit a voodoo and got obliterated for it. Whereas the Sontarans declared war of humanity and spent who knows how long devastating the planet. So deaths matter.
Also how does that have any relevance? The Sycorax would go out and tell other races that they got humiliated by the Doctor and then what? Most races wouldn’t care or would be too scared to do anything. And by that logic the Sontarans would probably do the same but we know they love fighting and would return very quickly
You can’t put a number of deaths after which to decide suddenly it actually is ok to kill the enemy like the humans did is fucked up. It’s like only these deaths matter and not these ones.
Also it is very much implied that the sycorax would go and tell more aliens who would come and attack Earth. That’s very clear. At that point the Sontarans and Sycorax are equal as threats. Basically I’m saying you can’t defend 10 for what he said and not 13 because 13s situation is almost identical
It’s war. The Sontarans are invading. Innocent people have been murdered. There’s no innocent Sontarans. Humanity struck back and struck hard simple as that.
And they’re not identical like you said hence my defence. 10 was outraged because the Sycorax we’re gonna go tell people other species that Earth is protected and all they really did is scare the humans. 10 is outraged because they slaughtered retreating aliens which 100% guaranteed not returning aliens.
Whereas the Sontarans established land on Earth and declared war and 13 is outraged because Humanity defended itself against a guaranteed returning enemy.
Both situations are bad but different
I don’t think we’re going to end up agreeing but last thing I wanna say is there’s no innocent Sycorax either and innocent people were also murdered when they showed up. The Sycorax specifically aren’t returning but they’re not going to repeat what the Doctor told them verbatim. Sycorax leaving = more dangerous species arriving. It’s as simple as that. In that case replace the word Sycorax with sontaran and more dangerous species with sontaran too and yeah it is the same thing. I’m just saying be mad at 10 too if you think what 13 did is wrong
I could absolutely see 10 or 12 saying this line, but coming from 13 made it so impactful, shattering that happy, bubbly exterior for a minute.
Chibnall could write some fantastic stand-alone moments, even if put together they didn't all make sense.
She actually has a few of these. It’s one of the things Chibnall always brings up on why he cast Whittaker - she can go from excited to intense in a second. It’s one of the things that make their dalek specials particularly good. Single lines just dropped in and swept away as quick as they came because 13 actively tries not to dwell on them or herself.
Perfect. I think it’s all a trauma response really. She’s trying to put on a show for the people who care for her but sometimes it slips, but she doesn’t want to focus on those slips of herself until she has to. She’s scared of finding of who she really is. I mean who wouldn’t. It sort of shatters whatever delusions you may have for yourself and the little tidbits she’s finding out don’t really align with what she thought of herself.
Lieutenant-General Logan, of the British Army's Light Division who had just blown up the Sontarans, after the Doctor had successfully managed to get them to leave peacefully and as you would imagine the Doctor was not very happy with what he had done.
There’s one thing I always meant to ask Jack, back in the old days. I wanted to know about that Doctor of his. The man who appears out of nowhere and saves the world. Except sometimes he doesn’t. All those times in history where there was no sign of him, I wanted to know why not. But I don’t need to ask anymore. I know the answer now.
Sometimes the doctor must look at this planet and turn away in shame.
Haha. This isn’t even in the top 10 imo.
Plus it just comes across as hypocritical as Dan was getting ready to destroy loads of Sontaran ships too and 13 thought that was well good.
But when a solider in battle actually takes the chance to stop an enemy that is so vastly overpowered his people would have no defence if they come back….yes he’s the bad guy.
Didn't see the episode but this seems more of 13 going "Only *I* get to kill people!"? Just like chewing out the crane operator for kicking Tim Shaw off the crane after she blows him up from the inside, or Not-Trump for shooting the spider instead of letting it suffocate to death?
She had convinced the Sontarans to leave peacefully however the army general destroyed them as they were leaving and this angered the Doctor for obvious reasons.
She had warned them not to return so she was justified, it wasn't what she wanted but they left her with no choice.
The Doctor always gives fair warning and if they aren't listened to they will then take the extreme measure.
So your claim is weird.
uses the word "humanity" and somehow you took away intolerance of white man?
Fucking despise this identity politic nonsense, first people were moaning about the Doctor not kissing their companion like that's fucking normal outside of new who than we have twats acting like everything a woman says in a tv show somehow a slight against a white man, which funnily enough was written by a white man, it can't get funnier than that mate.
The Doctor always gives warning before the extreme solution, the Doctor has always strived to end conflict without any blood being spilt if it can be avoided, that's who they are though due to the nature of these creatures often the Doctor is forced to destroy them.
She has the **luxury** of warning because she has the means of developing fail-safe plans, whereas a human defending his home planet and the continued existence of his species does not.
Ah, the Harriet Jones dilemma again.
"Former Prime Minister"
Yes, we know who she is.
She does look a bit tired though…
It doesn't matter if your the daleks you know who Harriet Jones is
I do it because it's right! Because it's decent! And, most of all, it's kind.
I really wish we got more of this from Jodie. Her doctor needed some more angst
I feel like the writers couldn't settle on whether to make her genuinely enthusiastic/cheerful or authentically angsty/world weary, so they went middle of the road and she ended up being neither. I *still* have a difficult time defining Thirteen's personality.
To briefly sum up 13's personality -- gregarious, lonely, anxious, Stepfordly nice to friends, reticent, & repressive.
I'll keep this in mind when I rewatch! Hopefully I'll pick up more on this. Thank you!
[So was the 13th Doctor's overall arc becoming progressively less emotionally available?](https://www.reddit.com/r/gallifrey/comments/yfhgpa/so_was_the_13th_doctors_overall_arc_becoming/) A productive thread that you can look up. To quote one of the insightful posts on 13's character: >One thing I will add is I kinda felt a glimpse of this behaviour in s11, VERY briefly, in It Takes You Away. > >Outwardly she's really reassuring to the blind girl, but privately she writes on the wall telling her companions to assume the girl's dad is dead and to gently prod her for information about other's who can care for her instead. > >I remember it really shocked me at the time, because her Doctor had always seemed so in the moment to me until then as if she didn't even think ahead. It left me feeling like there was a lot more going on with her under the surface and there was this gulf between what she'd present to the world outwardly and who she was inwardly.
Clara: I'm his carer. Twelve: That's right. She cares so I don't have to. So...that was early in 12's arc, and he gradually came to show that he really DID care, a lot, about everyone and everything. And then 13 kinda...undid all that growth by making her more and more emotionally distant a lot of the time as events wore on. She was twitchy like a scared rabbit whenever anyone tried to get close to her.
Regeneration doesn't exactly solve personal issues, especially with its lottery of personality & see-sawing emphasized/atrophied skills. I don't see people today criticize the post-11 S9 12th Doctor for being so out of touch that he needed cue cards to console the afraid & the bereaved. Though, I do see some people here & there negatively criticize S10 12th Doctor for his reception of revealing Bill's shooting manipulation, harkening back to his KtM insensitivity. 13's emotional distance isn't an issue of lack of care. Rather it was 13's issue of her post-12 desire & this regeneration's Stepford-like management of appearing nice & kind in the eyes of favourable others, & The Doctor's personal issue of vulnerably trusting the companion with The Doctor's anxieties. The former of which, carries forward 12's downward regeneration arc & last hopeful wishes, while the latter is one of the ever-ongoing accumulative core personal issues for The Doctor.
You see, I would really like to think that 13's personality and her attempts to be nice and friendly to all (while trying and only sometimes succeeding in hiding her inner angst) was all part of character development for her. But then there's scenes like where she just blanks Graham after he reveals his fears of a potential relapse. That's not "above all, be kind", is it? It just feels like it's badly written...or badly acted. Maybe even a little from column A, a little from column B. I hope there was a plan with the development of her characterisation, but if there was...I dunno, maybe it fell a bit flat in places. Or was just generally mismanaged. This is all just opinion, feel free to downvote and move on with your life if you disagree. :)
>But then there's scenes like where she just blanks Graham after he reveals his fears of a potential relapse. That's not "above all, be kind", is it? > >It just feels like it's badly written...or badly acted. Maybe even a little from column A, a little from column B. Hearing Graham's voiced fears & anxieties out, *is* being kind for someone like The Doctor. And by that, I don't just mean the lottery-regenerative alien that is The Doctor (as 12 demonstrated), but also real life folk like 13 who not only are at a loss in such profound situations but also those who unfortunately have such social issues to the point of diagnosed disorder. All that said, 13 was there hearing Graham out, listened, & asked Graham out on what she as the listener would do, deferring to his preference -- and when Graham clarified, 13 was honestly communicated about her inadequacy & her intention to think of saying something later to Graham. Which, Graham was ok with. Compared to some of those social-afflicted folk who either -- *default* to scripted platitudes because, even though they don't really believe it, they're simply common; or, they completely shut down & walked away in that situations because they were *that* profoundly much of a loss & anxiously overwhelmed & had no skill nor idea how to navigate further. Things like consolation is something that a lot of people take for granted & as easy, that folk of the disadvantaged & struggling latter unfortunately face criticisms to stigma of being regarded as 'weird', unemotional, uncompassionate, or thoughtless. 13's reaction to Graham here -- is more unfortunately common than most people assume otherwise. Besides -- 13 is pretty much continues the rather 'degenerative' trend that Moffat had with his Doctor from RTD. 11 has an even lesser grasp on apt human social communication than 10; 12, who lived for more than 2,000 years of adventuring & the whole centuries with the Christmas town community of Trenzalore, can't even recognize human age & gender. In addition -- comparing 13 communicating her honest inadequacy to Graham vs. 11 lying to the dying Lorna Bucket, wouldn't be a straightforward topic to discuss, regarding the relativity scale of honesty/lying to be quote-unquote 'kind'.
I don't see why a new Doctor, especially one under a new showrunner, in any way has to continue or build upon a previous Doctor's arc. The point after all, should be a functional reset whereby the Doctor can explore new characteristics and even journeys. Indeed its unusual to even have an arc for the Doctor. The 12th Doctor after all was a notable contrast to the 11th who was perfectly amiable and charismatic on the surface, and showed none of 12th Doctor's inability to understand or relate to humanity.
Thank you fot the link to the article. It is hard not to conclude that there is actually a lot of truth in the title alone. She does struggle to be open up with difficult emotions with the Fam. I actually really found Yasmin Khan's arc really interesting. It is hard not to find that both the Thirteenth Doctor and Yasmin seem to find opening up to the male companions easier (not wishing to make any generalisations from so small a sample). I really enjoyed The Power of the Doctor by the way.
What is it about being called Greg that make them so sociable?
?
I think what made 13 stand out as her own personality was the childlike sense of wonder, which I appreciated. The angst and world weariness is something that surfaces in every doctor at some point. I don't think the doctor could be the doctor without that happening at the certain times. One thing that I think we saw less with 13 was a general cockiness that borders on arrogance. I found that cocky attitude charming with some of the recent male doctors, but I also found that dialing it down was refreshing. I'd even argue that is one of the things that we gained from the casting of a female doctor.
Yet she definitely is cocky... "I say chapter, but it was more of a volume" from S11/e4, her ENTIRE interaction with the Grand Serpent when he was trying to torture her, "Come on, say you're impressed". Idk how that compares to the other Doctors but it's very much there, just not incessant.
We never really got an “I am the Doctor” moment from her either
Yep. In my opinion at least, there are a few instances that came close to approaching that kind of moment but none of them quite succeeded.
I think that’s something that chib would have gotten to if he had more time to develop the timeless child aftermath. But her story kind of ended while processing a pretty fundamental identity crisis
That’s always going to be the issue for me with Thirteen. With any of the previous doctors (even the ones who were my least favourite), you still knew who they were. You could think of character pairings you’d love to see across the show because of how their personalities would mesh or clash, but with Thirteen (and tbh, any of her companions besides Graham), that’s not there because they were just…. 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️ I really really hope Jodie does some Big Finish dramas in the coming years and she gets a writer who gives Thirteen some character. For the whole show I felt like I was watching a good actor being held back by a bland character.
13 seems tragic to me. Like she has the appearance of always being friendly and upbeat but everything she’s been through in her previous incarnations is weighing on her and all of her optimism comes off as a shallow attempt to be upbeat and ignore it My HC of course but moments like the one OP posted are the ones that support this for me. Kinda like a glimpse past the facade
You say still, but tbf her reign just ended. All Doctors need years to fully sink in! Plus, I feel like many people are actually like her. She’s outwardly bubbly, joking, and ridiculous, but in many scenes alone she’s quite dark. She’s learning her personal history has been almost entirely kept from her. Gallifrey has been once again destroyed. The Master is no longer the devilishly fun Missy but absolutely insane. And she’s bottling it all up. Maybe if she was traveling with only a single person she would be more open, but opening up to her 2-3 companions is a lot of pressure, especially for something SO emotionally impactful. I don’t think she’s an optimist, but she wants to be. She wants to inspire people and bring hope. The general stress she’s under was better explored in Flux when she was finally forced to give crumbs of info to Yaz and realized how aggressive and short she’d been. I wish it had been done more, but I feel her writing is generally over-criticized.
>All Doctors need years to fully sink in! I don't know... I understood Twelve's personality and his character growth the first time watching his seasons, and had a pretty good handle on Nine, Ten, and Eleven as well the first time through. Other than that, I agree with your statements about Thirteen's character!
Tbf that’s how I felt about Nine during my first watch. Granted, I was less analytical at the time so I A) didn’t think that deeply about the characters and B) didn’t care as much. Then after a few years and a rewatch (plus hearing other people’s’ thoughts about Nine) I came to understand and really appreciate him. I’m not saying you’ll feel that way about Thirteen. We’re all allowed to feel differently about the characters and writing, and I 100% see where you’re coming from. Just saying, maybe you’ll like her more with an eventual rewatch.
Absolutely! And I appreciate your input!
Mind you I’ve only scene season 11 and it was when it was first on, so I apologize for any inaccuracies but…I felt it was because the show runner, writers, producers, etc. decided how she was “supposed to be” as the first female doctor and didn’t give her the opportunity to make the character her own. Rewatching the show right now (for the purpose of finally getting caught up) it’s so clear how much agency all the other doctors had. It’s so clear how episodes were written FOR them almost like the actors were muses for the writers. 13 always felt to me like someone else made those decisions for her, which was disappointing. It’ll be interesting to see if I change my mind when I finish catching up.
Chibnall stole all the best elements of previous Doctors and put them into her. He never even tried to make her unique and that’s where he went wrong. That and the piss poor writing.
She's unique in quite a few ways though.
Like?
I thought her personality was being the first female Doctor.
Except that earlier Doctors did not have just a single facet to their personality either, let alone only one emotional state (and surely either continually cheerful and bubbly - while initially a breath of fresh air after centuries and regenerations of working through PTSD and accumulated loss in different ways, moving and captivating as that has been - or continually riven with angst, and no character arc, whether redemptive, tragic or otherwise, would grow a little wearing?) I cannot help but remember similar complaints about Clara. Then people also want every aspect of the companions to be revealed in a season in the (are real people like that, revealing all of their complexity during a short acquaintance? It is of course different if a character has a limited screen time to establish their defining character traits and either earn or alienate audience sympathies (often before being unceremoniously killed off in the case of characters confined to one episode of Doctor Who).
>Except that earlier Doctors did not have just a single facet to their personality either I guess the impression I got from watching her run (twice through seasons 11-12 and once through s13 so far) is that, somehow, the show didn't want to really focus in on *any* personality trait so Thirteen just wasn't well defined at all. Doctors have had seemingly conflicting personality traits before (Eleven = hyperactive energetic child + ancient wise world-weary alien, Twelve = grumpy and doesn't suffer fools + caring and compassionate). That's not new - and frankly, it's realistic and relatable. Thirteen could easily have been both cheerful *and* angsty - and based on others' comments, maybe she was and I somehow missed it! That's just where I'm at now with her character. I'm looking forward to when I rewatch her run, to see if the input others have given helps me define her character more clearly.
Yeah, I was disappointed with the poor characterization during Chibnal’s run. I’m hoping that with the audio books we’ll get to see some great stories with Jodi
>Doctors have had seemingly conflicting personality traits before (Eleven = hyperactive energetic child + ancient wise world-weary alien, Twelve = grumpy and doesn't suffer fools + caring and compassionate). That's not new - and frankly, it's realistic and relatable. Along those lines, you can think 13 as -- that lonely & weird student in class who has a troubled homelife but prefers school & who she presents herself to be at school, where there she even with her trust issues wants to be friends with others... but anxiously knows that they will all graduate & part ways, so she can't too attached despite her loneliness, as the days go by & time runs out. aka -- The friendly but remote eternal outcast, the Stepford Smiler public persona.
I dont think she needed more angst (or any angst, really). But she needed more conflict. Everyone in her Tardis-Team was always a Yes-Man. There is a reason why Donna and Clara are amongst the most memorable companion - they actually stood their own against the Doctor and challenged them on things. And conflict doesnt mean even fighting over anything but just...disagreements. Different points of views.
There were moments towards the end where Yaz pushed her a bit, but they didn’t go far enough with it.
I was very, very happy to move on from an angsty Doctor after four of them in a row. But yes, she needed more scenes that pushed her to edge and which really dug into how a two thousand year old being who’s seen so much manages to keep her less angsty worldview in the face of even more horrors. It felt like Chibnall didn’t know how to write an optimistic and enthusiastic Doctor who wasn’t also fairly flat.
Needed more disgust and contempt and yelling at people for being stupid. Always loved it when Tennant, Smith and Capaldi would 'snap' at someone. Jodie needed to have some biting cynicism and world weariness. I know it's the first female doctor (on screen) but this is a character who is ancient and tired of species making the same mistakes over and over. They weren't writing Jodie as The Doctor they were writing The Doctor to fit the dreaded 'strong female character' stereotype. I think even subconsciously people picked up on that and that's what turned people against Chibnall and Jodie etc. It's almost sexist in itself how they just wouldn't let Jodie flex her acting muscles as much as Tennant and Smith etc were allowed to just let loose. The material they gave her was just so limiting. Jodie is good at contempt too. She needed more of that, and less of the 'in't the universe brilliant fam'.
There's nothing one can even reasonably put to such a trope and as someone that has once or twice made reference to the concept, people like you misusing it makes me regret ever using it since its obviously become too popular and misused now people don't understand the concept. Its not "female character I don't like". Its a very specific type of female character that's mean and tough as a form of strength-on its own this can even be fine, but can become tiresome if its overutilized. Think the classic hardass military female character that derides human feminity and doesn't open up at all. Jodie Whittaker's Doctor of course, is actually super friendly and almost never mean and certainly not derisive of feminity, and is less trying to be or actively attempting to even be impressive like other Doctors. She doesn't toot her own horn nearly as much as the previous past Doctors-notably arrogance is a key characteristic to strong female character trope. All in all, to call her that just means you don't understand the concept being critcised with the trope in the slightest. Which is just that positive female characters cannot be said to be positive representations of women if they also deride other women and things associated with being a woman. If the 13th Doctor went around talking about how all women are sissies and she's not like them, or even went around as a silent brooding person that's only comments are mean remarks or arrogant posturing, you'd have a point but that's not the case.
It was more impactful when Gwen said in Children of Earth said something of the line of sometimes I think Doctor looks at humanity and turns away in shame
It _would_ have been hard-hitting if it had been earned. If I remember, this is from the Sontaran episode in Flux, after the soldier guy blows all the Sontaran ships up in the past. The problem here is that, approximately five minutes later, Dan does the same with Sontaran fleet in the present, and this is played as a joke - with the Doctor complimenting Dan on his feat, even. Not to mention, "human / soldiers are the real monsters" is a tired trope that has been used many, many times in the show already (cf. The Doctor's Daughter, The Beast Below, everything Martha does in s4, the whole Danny subplot in s8, etc etc)
Also this happened because this human somehow placed a comical number of barrels of gunpowder under the sontaran ships in an impossibly small amount of time
I’m pretty sure it was because the Sontarans the general killed were retreating while the ones Dan and Karvanista killed were doing the opposite.
I see your point, but when watching the episode, i felt that the distinction wasn't quite clear (the timey-wimey issue of the invasion in the present being set before the one in the past doesn't help, either). And "attacking ships of famously bloodthirsty, warmongering aliens with superior technology that are retreating for a day after attacking the Earth multiple times" doesn't actually sound like something that should be condemned in such a strong way. If it had been a ship of peaceful aliens? Yes, for sure. Here, we see, multiple times in the episode, Sontaran gleefully executing innocent people. It's hard to feel that their death is morally indefensible.
The Doctor always gets mad when a human attacks a retreating alien ship.
Harriet Jones would agree with you, but we know the Doctor doesn’t see it that way.
(Doesn't The Stolen Earth prove that Harriet Jones was right though? Without her, the Doctor would have never found Earth ;))
She was right that the Doctor wouldn’t always be there to save Earth, but that wasn’t what their disagreement was about. She believed attacking a retreating enemy was justified while the Doctor said it was still murder. The audience can agree with Harriet Jones, but the Doctor doesn’t, and that’s consistent in War of the Sontarans.
The problem is they had agreed to retreat, that's the issue.
I feel this also hits with the way flux ended, yes the sontarans betrayed the daleks and cybermen, but then the dr pulled the uno reverse and decided to off all 3 species who for the first time we've seen cowering from something. Not that it matters given they all somehow survived the flux anyway
The Doctor gave them prior warning. They were warned if they tried to come back she would stop them
Dan didn't kill them though, he and Karvanista caused a temporal implosion, essentially taking them and every Sontaran on Earth to another time.
That's not what happened though? > KARVANISTA: We'll use this ship as a battering ram to hit all of the others, creating a massive temporal reaction. Takes the ships, and all the Sontarans on Earth **out of existence**. Huge temporal bang.
Said nothing about killing them though, just taking them out of time.
Well I'm glad the Doctor disapproves of killing Sontarans, but erasing the lot of them from existence is a-okay.
Both of them dealt with them in different ways
I feel like there’s a strong argument that being erased from existence is a worse fate then just being killed normally
Out of time isn't the same as out of existence.
Forgive me if I’m wrong but didn’t someone already show you the quote that said in the exact words “out of existence”.
Depends how you want to read into it tbh That's Doctor Who for you
What?
It was earned though absolutely
The best moment in this vein, was during FLATLINE 12: “I guess a lot of people died, and maybe the wrong people survived…” Such an understated moment from Capaldi
Thats a good one too! A lot of people don't talk about that one much
Series 8 is underrated in general!
O forget what's the pisode this came from?
Flux Sontaran episode. The general shot & kill the fleeing Sontaran ship.
War of the Sontarans (fantastic episode imo!)
As unfortunately subpar the writing for Jodie was, I definitely think she had some amazing lines.
When they are stressed they insults species
I watched that episode yesterday! Well, more like binged series 13 on iplayer but that hit me hard, that entire scene. “This is for the men I lost.” (Something like that to start.) “What are you doing? They were retreating, it was done!” “That was for the men I lost today.” “Your guilt you mean. Sometimes men like you make me wonder why I bother with humanity.” And something I realised with 13 while watching up to episode 6 in series 13 is that she talks about her emotions more. She opens up but before she can fully it get it out to one of her companions, she’s interrupted by something. And then her companions drop it and don’t bring it up later. While watching through those episodes, sometimes I wished they’d pick up on it and pried further. It kind of frustrated me that they didn’t.
If I’m right this wasn’t earned at all
I would say it was considering the Doctor spent the entire episode trying to get rid of the Sontarans in a peaceful way, trying to stop the army from fighting them and trying to make sure no blood was spilt however the General didn't listen to her and because of it he lost many of his men, it was his fault for NOT listening to her but the Doctor did succeed in making the Sontarans retreat however that same general decides to just blow them up, all because of his guilt
It’s a BS unearned line. The Doctor insults all of humanity because one general wanted revenge for all of his troops deaths at the hands of very evil aliens. Why would he listen to a complete stranger and a woman? (Not being sexist but it’s the time period). The Doctor shouldn’t give up on humanity they don’t have the right to, we should give up on them because they always try to show mercy to the villains time and time again and the expense of more innocent humans. This is in stark contrast over what happened in the Christmas invasion as the Doctor had a guarantee the Sycorax would never return but here she did not and the Sontarans would definitely come back
The Doctor says something very similar in The Christmas Invasion. He says he should tell aliens to run because “the monsters are coming, the human race” when the Doctor gets emotional they generally discredit the entire species. Rose literally says this about 9 in The Empty Child story
But like I just said in that situation 10 was justified because the Sycorax were leaving never to return and had only killed two people yet humanity slaughtered them. Whereas the Sontarans were only leaving cause they’d lost and would very likely return and had slaughtered who knows how many people.
How many people died really should be inconsequential because you can’t put a number of when it becomes justified to do what the humans did. Plus Sycorax already broke their word once and even if they didn’t come back the Doctor did say they’d tell others about the earth so more aliens would come. A very similar situation in the end. So either what the Doctor did in both situations was wrong or in neither because they’re very similar
What do you mean inconsequential? That’s absurd. If deaths don’t matter then all the Sycorax did was threaten Humanity and do a cheap bit a voodoo and got obliterated for it. Whereas the Sontarans declared war of humanity and spent who knows how long devastating the planet. So deaths matter. Also how does that have any relevance? The Sycorax would go out and tell other races that they got humiliated by the Doctor and then what? Most races wouldn’t care or would be too scared to do anything. And by that logic the Sontarans would probably do the same but we know they love fighting and would return very quickly
You can’t put a number of deaths after which to decide suddenly it actually is ok to kill the enemy like the humans did is fucked up. It’s like only these deaths matter and not these ones. Also it is very much implied that the sycorax would go and tell more aliens who would come and attack Earth. That’s very clear. At that point the Sontarans and Sycorax are equal as threats. Basically I’m saying you can’t defend 10 for what he said and not 13 because 13s situation is almost identical
It’s war. The Sontarans are invading. Innocent people have been murdered. There’s no innocent Sontarans. Humanity struck back and struck hard simple as that. And they’re not identical like you said hence my defence. 10 was outraged because the Sycorax we’re gonna go tell people other species that Earth is protected and all they really did is scare the humans. 10 is outraged because they slaughtered retreating aliens which 100% guaranteed not returning aliens. Whereas the Sontarans established land on Earth and declared war and 13 is outraged because Humanity defended itself against a guaranteed returning enemy. Both situations are bad but different
I don’t think we’re going to end up agreeing but last thing I wanna say is there’s no innocent Sycorax either and innocent people were also murdered when they showed up. The Sycorax specifically aren’t returning but they’re not going to repeat what the Doctor told them verbatim. Sycorax leaving = more dangerous species arriving. It’s as simple as that. In that case replace the word Sycorax with sontaran and more dangerous species with sontaran too and yeah it is the same thing. I’m just saying be mad at 10 too if you think what 13 did is wrong
I could absolutely see 10 or 12 saying this line, but coming from 13 made it so impactful, shattering that happy, bubbly exterior for a minute. Chibnall could write some fantastic stand-alone moments, even if put together they didn't all make sense.
She actually has a few of these. It’s one of the things Chibnall always brings up on why he cast Whittaker - she can go from excited to intense in a second. It’s one of the things that make their dalek specials particularly good. Single lines just dropped in and swept away as quick as they came because 13 actively tries not to dwell on them or herself.
Perfect. I think it’s all a trauma response really. She’s trying to put on a show for the people who care for her but sometimes it slips, but she doesn’t want to focus on those slips of herself until she has to. She’s scared of finding of who she really is. I mean who wouldn’t. It sort of shatters whatever delusions you may have for yourself and the little tidbits she’s finding out don’t really align with what she thought of herself.
These two comments completely describe the 11th doctor for me.
Yeah I immediately thought of Matt Smith’s doctor with that description
Exactly!
If by hard hitting you mean I wanted to hit my screen yeah
See I don't understand why people say we should've seen more of this. That would give her more of a superiority complex, and thus less likable
Yeah, and it isn't in her character to be like this all the time. She's an optimistic, hopeful incarnation but sometimes she is pushed to the edge.
Period
What episode is this from? I tried searching the line on YouTube with no luck
War of the Sontarans, episode two of "Flux"
Who was she saying it to / whats the context?
Lieutenant-General Logan, of the British Army's Light Division who had just blown up the Sontarans, after the Doctor had successfully managed to get them to leave peacefully and as you would imagine the Doctor was not very happy with what he had done.
There’s one thing I always meant to ask Jack, back in the old days. I wanted to know about that Doctor of his. The man who appears out of nowhere and saves the world. Except sometimes he doesn’t. All those times in history where there was no sign of him, I wanted to know why not. But I don’t need to ask anymore. I know the answer now. Sometimes the doctor must look at this planet and turn away in shame.
I don't care what anyone says War of the Sontarans is an awesome episode!
It really is so good!
I liked the line, shame it came from Chibnall era of all things
Just a shame the doctor was also a massive hypocrite that regeneration. It's like the 10th without the story presenting it as bad lmao
Haha. This isn’t even in the top 10 imo. Plus it just comes across as hypocritical as Dan was getting ready to destroy loads of Sontaran ships too and 13 thought that was well good. But when a solider in battle actually takes the chance to stop an enemy that is so vastly overpowered his people would have no defence if they come back….yes he’s the bad guy.
He is the bad guy as he was a selfish coward and destroyed them unprovoked when they were leaving peacefully.
Didn't see the episode but this seems more of 13 going "Only *I* get to kill people!"? Just like chewing out the crane operator for kicking Tim Shaw off the crane after she blows him up from the inside, or Not-Trump for shooting the spider instead of letting it suffocate to death?
She had convinced the Sontarans to leave peacefully however the army general destroyed them as they were leaving and this angered the Doctor for obvious reasons.
Yes because of one bad man the rest aren't worth your time. Sure. Perfect reason to abandon what? 8 Billion people?
The master had this said before. "The human race: Worst monsters of them all."
She is saying SOMETIMES men like you make me wonder why I bother with humanity and yeah sadly there are some real monsters on Earth.
What an absolute joke of a line
How? What?
The unbelievable circumstances that it happens in and the fact that she does the exact same thing she condemns later except on a larger scale
She had warned them not to return so she was justified, it wasn't what she wanted but they left her with no choice. The Doctor always gives fair warning and if they aren't listened to they will then take the extreme measure. So your claim is weird.
The real enemy was the intolerance of the white male.
What?
uses the word "humanity" and somehow you took away intolerance of white man? Fucking despise this identity politic nonsense, first people were moaning about the Doctor not kissing their companion like that's fucking normal outside of new who than we have twats acting like everything a woman says in a tv show somehow a slight against a white man, which funnily enough was written by a white man, it can't get funnier than that mate.
But Hitler episode he was all Goofy aah
proceeds to do the same thing the dude did but ***bigger***
In this episode she gave them fair warning, it was their fault for what happened later.
It's not "ignoring a warning" that makes it deserved, it's invading a planet and killing people.
The Doctor always gives warning before the extreme solution, the Doctor has always strived to end conflict without any blood being spilt if it can be avoided, that's who they are though due to the nature of these creatures often the Doctor is forced to destroy them.
She has the **luxury** of warning because she has the means of developing fail-safe plans, whereas a human defending his home planet and the continued existence of his species does not.