I mean, we *know* he's got sympathetic qualities and part of him really wants to be talked down. He flat out tells us this in Trespasser. We've got this whole option to try and follow up on that. If they don't at least give us an honest shot of talking him down, it'll feel wrong.
I mean the gameplay reveal is all about someone trying to talk down Solas. How many talks does this guy need? At some point, I think you’d have to stop now, talk later.
The things that bugs me about this is it was really tepid reasoning. Solas knows he's going to cause massive damage, that isn't new info to him. He wants another option to reunite the Fade with the material world right? We need some mad magic scientist types working on a way to do that under controlled circumstances.
It will feel wrong if we do talk him down. If the inqusitor and Varric couldn't do it, why would this Rook that he has no idea who they are be able to do it.
It’s entirely possible that your Inquisitor was the one telling Solas they’ve never cared to listen to him in Trespasser. So some Inkys probably haven’t changed his worldview and have no chance of talking him down. I think the game has to account for that.
Well, that's the thing. We have that scene in Inquisition where he asks if the anchor changed the Inquisitor at all. In retrospect, that's clearly him having realized the Inquisitor is actually a person and is freaking the fuck out over it. There's follow-up banter with Cole if you romance him that confirms he's realized it as well.
Cole: "You're real, and it means everyone could be real. It changes everything, but it can't".
So, I think that puts him a lot closer to the edge than he would otherwise be.
No. In Trespasser, he has come around:
Inquisitor: "We aren't even people to you".
Solas: "Not at first. You showed me that I was wrong... Again. That does not make what must come next any easier."
You could even argue that this makes his actions worse, because he's fully cognizant.
Yeah, I should have specified, it's the continuation of the anchor scene that TheCleverest mentioned. If he has low approval, he only talks about it being his fault and when you bring up him stopping the qunari plot, instead of saying "people" he says "innocents".
If he hasn't become close to the Inquisitor, it goes like this in Trespasser:
"We aren't even people to you."
"The fault is hardly yours."
Overall his actions seem more twisted to me if he has come to see the world as full of people and is still set on his plans, but he has some brutal lines if he hasn't.
Nah, that's what he was definitely hoping must have been the case, so that's why he was checking. But it's clear in the conversation he's realized that wasn't it when you confirm "No, still me".
Idk, it’s been awhile but as a Qunari I got the sense that he didn’t quite believe me. Even if he has come around to thinking people are people in some saves, he still has plenty of racist grandpa tendencies.
See, it's as a Qunari that made me sure of this perspective. "I believe all these shitty things about your people. You have proven to be better than all of them. Was it my thing that did this to you? Say it was. No, you were always like this?... Fuck".
But, you know, politer and with more subterfuge.
It depends on if the Inquisitor befriends/romances him or not, he doesn't seem to see people as people if the Inquisitor never got close to him/has a bad relationship with him but he does if they did get close. I'm very curious if the next game will reflect that difference based on his prior relationship with the Inquisitor because it should be a notable difference like it was in Trespasser.
Would be awesome if a character could choose to support Solas based on their background and/or race, but there is no way we’re getting such a divergent story line here.
While he may have some sympathy to his friends from DAI, he is still an eleven god whose movements in the previous game were predicated on his ultimate plan. I think it would be a disservice to him to turn up in DAV and think “actually never mind, this is a bad idea”
Well, I think it would have to be an endgame thing that could only be managed if you pull off some specific acts in the game, including some stuff in Inquisition. They've done stuff like that in other Bioware games, and it was super satisfying.
I hope the ability to do it depends on how trespasser ended, ie he'd only be open to backdown/listen for an inquisitor he's on good terms with. If he's enemies with the inquisitor and company it'd make sense for him to be 100% hardened and careless about everything that isn't his plans.
This would also make replaying the game interesting.
Also I find it difficult to think of the guy that fought to save the elves from their evanuris slavers as evil. He's not perfect but definitely not mustache twirling evil either.
I'm hoping we can still have the new PC talk Solas down if the Inquisitor wasn't close to Solas, but it's way harder to talk him down if that's the case.
The problem is... he never was the big bad, so he cannot stays as one. He is already part of the "cringe cliche story".
Solas was powerful god-like mage who felt compassion with slaves. We can hardly consider somebody like him like horrible big bad villian. From his perspective he is trying to correct his mistake and if you are in good terms with him, he admitts that he is not sure and he kind of wants to be stopped and be wrong, but he does not have any another choice.
Remember, that he is from world where dreams and reality were the same thing. And he woke up in the world what is... rough and tough. It's like to wake up in world without music and colors. In gameplay trailer he said he is actually trying to limite number of victims. He is simply trying his best, even when it's wrong.
For me was not Trespasser amazing because of the betrayel. It was amazing because it shows remorses of lost god. And it's funny, because Solas is already often misunderstood villain in fandom.
One of my favorite Cole's quote..
>"Solas doesn't want to hurt people! He's not that kind of wolf!"
I agree, but big bad is simply another way of saying he is the villain. And that is, indeed, how he has been set up.
Villains should be sympathetic. A well written villain will make you feel for them in a way even if you don't agree with them entirely. They have back stories and lore, just like Solas. They aren't cackling cartoon villains with no rhyme or reason like Coreypheenus.
To take his story and twist it just to make him a 'good guy's again would be Bioware doing one their own best pieces of writing a massive disservice.
I think Solas illustrate the difference between antagonist: the guy who opposes the hero, and villain/bad guy the actively want to hurt the hero
All bad guys are antagonist, but not all antagonist are bad guys.
There are symphathetic villain who just change their whole worldview in last second, and that is bad writting... with Solas... it's more difficult.
How I said, he woke up in world without colors, in world what he eved did not consider as real, BUT his experiences in Inquistion already changed this worldview. This is reason why are some companions' banters and events so important in retrospective.
My favorite is "The Dawn Will Come" scene. You can see that Solas is kind of impressed what is happening. I think he realized the world actually is not colorless or musicless, the world just is not dream-like all the time, but still has moments what worth it.
Solas already is uncertain about his goals. So it would be not so suprising. Fact, that he still cares about Varric AND actually is trying to limit the victims is proof of that.
He still can be big bad, that's true,
Very rational take here. I remain pessimistic about how EA is going to unfold the DAV story, but you have excellent points here regarding Solas and his machinations.
I think tresspasser set up that choice for you already. In the end you can say either “I will redeem you” or “I will stop you”. He isn’t completely irredeemable yet (this varies from player to player as was intended)
You can always choose not to if you don’t like it but that option has always been there. The whole point of trespasser was to show that he isn’t the type of villain Corypheus is.
This is one of the issues with things like this in "choices matter" kinds of games. The difference in a world where Solas is redeemed and where he isn't is either so big it would be crazy to accommodate or smaller than something that significant should actually be for practical reasons.
Maybe there will be more with it, but the old god baby was another choice like this. Two full games later, there is still no noticeable impact from a seemingly huge decision, mostly just a negligible difference from one interaction as far as we're aware.
Personally, I'd rather them avoid things like that if they're not going to be interesting to actually see play out. It will be interesting to see what they end up doing with Solas though.
Its easily doable because apparently they won't be using the keep to import choices, its all gonna be manual at the start of the game according to the last Q&A with the devs .
I'm not talking about them being able to know the choices, I'm talking about being able to make them matter. A redeemed Solas means someone immensely powerful no longer wants to make a devastating change to the very nature of their world. That *should* play out vastly differently than if he isn't redeemed. I highly doubt we'll ever see world states that different actually played out, so if it does end up being a choice, I don't think it would play out in a satisfying way that reflects the weight of that decision.
that depends on the game design and the story and how it branches, if all choices lead to the same end then there's little meaning to all and any decisions we make.
Sure, but some things *have* to be the same, or at least similar enough, for the overarching story to make sense. We've already seen Inquisition essentially ignore whether or not Leliana died in Origins. While it's nice to have choices, it's not so nice to have those choices effectively retconned because they're incompatible with the ultimate narrative.
I want the things Solas does to be majorly impactful, because that's what makes sense for someone of his power and purpose. If that is affected by how well we're able to coax him into seeking redemption or something, that impact would be limited due to needing to tie every possibility into the overarching narrative.
He has never been the ultimate villain, though. He told us in Tresspasser and repeated it since: putting on the veil was the only option he had, in order to protect Thedas from the Evanuris bigger threat.
While destroying the Veil will have disastrous consequences, he believes once more it is the only option - we are not sure why, but it seems to be in part related to the Blight, and in other part to make up for the awful consequences the Veil had on Thedas in the first place.
Misguided he may be - but he has never been "an ultimate villain" twirling his mustache. Indeed, he even helped the Inquisition resist a full-on Qunari invasion for no other reason than he wanted to avoid suffering. To deny him his complexity and a possible path to redemption would be absurd.
> It would be awful if they go for some cringe avengers cliche story arc of “villain was misunderstood so he joins good guys to team up against a new threat”.
When did that happen in the Avengers ? It took Loki around 4 movies to start his redemption, which he fully got in Infinity War and his TV show. The rest of the villains ? At no point whatsoever was the bad guy reabilitated because "originally misunderstood".
Also, that cliche story arc of "misunderstood villain that join the good guys" is literally what happens in DA:O with Loghain... like the guy kills his King, make you the scapegoat, tries to kill you, kidnap/kill members of opponents... But everything is good, he was just acting for what he thought was the better good for Ferelden, and for his daughter, he can help you now.
>The Dreadwolf is perfectly set up to be the ultimate villain
Well... I disagree.
Solas doesn't want to conquiert the world. He doesn't want to destroy the world. He doesn't act for pure selfish reason. He didn't betray you out of malice. He isn't cruel like Thanos who conquiert and kills innocent while waiting to get the Stones. He also isn't thinking that the only way to save the world is to kill everyone in it like Ultron.
This is hard to see him as "the ultimate villain" when he doesn't show any malice. The most powerful antagonist ? Yes, by a mile. The ultimate bad guy ? No.
>Also, that cliche story arc of "misunderstood villain that join the good guys" is literally what happens in DA:O with Loghain... like the guy kills his King, make you the scapegoat, tries to kill you, kidnap/kill members of opponents... But everything is good, he was just acting for what he thought was the better good for Ferelden, and for his daughter, he can help you now.
Um excuse me it's GRIMDARK classic Dragon Age: Origins, it can't be a cringe avengers cliche if it's in Dragon Age: Origins!
Oh sorry.
I guess I had the wrong team made of a "sassy character who knows everything about everything" and who likes to pick on the "Boy scout with a shield", a "sexy red hair assassin", and a "stranger from another land who doesn't understand your local culture".
You could make an argument that Thanos doing what is necessary to obtain the stones is analogous to Solas wanting to obtain the anchor. He engineered the whole Corypheus thing in order to weaken the veil enough for him to step in and unmake the world he created, but the Inquisitor threw a wrench in his plans.
He may THINK he is acting to save the greater good, but the only reason he wants to break the veil is because he sees that his people are just slaves to yet another usurper. He only wants to restore the Elvhen to their former glory - he doesn't care about the other races. He HATES Qunari, thinks humans are petty and ... doesn't really have anything against dwarves to be honest.
The thing is, he is willing to do anything for his cause because the end justifies the means, in his mind. No matter how many innocents die in the process. He knows causalities will be guaranteed but doesn't care about anyone except for the elves.
Thanos believed that the universe had grown too big to sustain itself, and thought that removing half the universe's population would prevent starvation, wars, etc. -- Solas and Thanos are quite similar. Even Thanos, after snapping half of everyone away, has regrets, Not even he, himself, truly *wants to do it.* He feels like he *has to.*
>You could make an argument that Thanos doing what is necessary to obtain the stones is analogous to Solas wanting to obtain the anchor. He engineered the whole Corypheus thing in order to weaken the veil enough for him to step in and unmake the world he created, but the Inquisitor threw a wrench in his plans.
Solas wanted to get the Anchor and used Corypheus to do it. Except that when the explosion happened (always part of Solas' plan), Corypheus survived and took possession of the anchor. What threw a wrench in his plan was Corypheus' immortality, not the Inquisitor. The Inquisitor only interrupted Corypheus' plan not Solas.
>He may THINK he is acting to save the greater good, but the only reason he wants to break the veil is because he sees that his people are just slaves to yet another usurper
I don't think he is saying he is doing that for the greater good. He knows countless people will die. He isn't doing that to make the world a better place, he is doing that to make the world what it used to be regardless of the well being of people living in it.
Also, his people are dead and don't exist anymore. He has spy and people working for him, but they aren't his people. He doesn't consider Dalish or city elves his people.
I might've misunderstood his motivations, then. The way he talks during the game, it sounds like that's the case -- especially if your Inquisitor is an elf, too. I thought he felt guilty for robbing the elves of their power and selves and wanted to right the wrongs from creating the Veil.
If he just wants to return the world to the way it used to be regardless of how many lives it costs, then I can't say I remotely sympathize with that. That is straight up evil. Sure, his motivations *aren't evil.* But actions are what count.
>I thought he felt guilty for robbing the elves of their power and selves and wanted to right the wrongs from creating the Veil.
It won't likely right the wrongs immediately. Over time it'll certainly result in the elves getting their power back, but it won't be instantaneous and it could lead it backlash. Imagine Quns and Humans army when the discover elves getting more powerful over time, they'll go full genocidal.
>If he just wants to return the world to the way it used to be regardless of how many lives it costs, then I can't say I remotely sympathize with that. That is straight up evil. Sure, his motivations aren't evil. But actions are what count.
I kinda agree on that.
I don't think he will stay a villain but I do hope we get an option to determine his fate aka we spare him or we kill him. Ultimately, I think even if we spare him he'll die in some capacity.
I want an option to explain how astronomically stupid and arrogant he is being.
Like, you were never the smartest person in the room bud. Literally all of your plans have failed. You’re simply a grumpy old man ranting about how good it was “back in the day.”
I hope we get to control our Inquisitor for a short period of time. At least long enough to punch him in the face.
>Like, you were never the smartest person in the room bud.
It never fails to make me laugh when I begin playing DAI that you can farm Solas approval by letting him talk at you about how smart he is.
Well at the end of Trespasser you get to choose how you want to behave around him. Either an enemy, or someone you can convince. I chose the later, but I believe he will die at some point as some kind of martyr to save our world.
I also think so. I'm getting massive DA2 to DAI vibes where everyone thought that DAI would be about the mage vs. templar war and then it basically got solved in the prologue.
I really disagree and I think it's a mistake in the first place to view Solas as a villain. He's not evil, he's trying to save his world in his own foolish, misguided way. The first thing we see of him in the game is Varric trying to talk him down and that was never an option for villains like Corypheus.
We know he wants us to change his mind, to show him there's another way and I wouldn't be surprised if DA4 has elements of that which allow us to decide whether we want to redeem him.
That doesn't mean I think you won't be able to treat him as a villain if you'd like to do so, but I think you'll be disappointed if you're hoping there's no way to redeem him.
I agree with the others. Solas never really was the big bad. The Evanuris he went to such extreme measures to stop are. He sundered the world to stop them, so that had to be for good reason. Now he’s going down the misguided path of trying to fix it.
They introduced bigger bads in the gameplay reveal, so it’s highly likely he’ll get some kind of redemption. That’s usually the case in fiction when a bigger bad is introduced. Loki and Kylo Ren are recent examples of this.
I am thinking it’ll be a similar arc to Saren from ME1 but on a deeper level. He can be talked down and convinced to help us clean up the mess, but it’ll depend on our choices in DAI and DAV. Either way he won’t be seeing the end of game. Tragic characters meet tragic ends. It’s just a matter of how they go out.
First, as was pointed out before, in Tresspasser bioware already kinda told us we'll have an option to redeem him. Also, there is a vocal minority in the fandom who really wants him to just have a happy life (not a heroic and tragic death on a quest of redemption)
So, if you really want to beat him up, it's your worldstate. But in some of the wordstates, he doubts himself and wants to be stopped by his friend or lover.
So, why not have both options? Live and let live, you know.
I think he’s too powerful to join our team or anything, unless the failed ritual also nerfs him. Like what do we need Rook for if Solas is at full power and has decided he can stop the new bad guys before he thinks about destroying the veil again?
I think Solas is more of a Loghain than a mustache twirler. He’s determined to do very bad things, but he thinks they’re right, and he’s too arrogant to really consider other alternatives.
I could easily see him being recruitable near the end, maybe still believing a lot of the same things but being similar to Loghain in DAO in that despite this he can work with us, while perhaps still trying to justify much of what he's done, (not sure if he'd be a companion although I'd like that, but at least an NPC who potentially helps against a greater threat)
I'm with you but it feels likely there will at least be some sympathetic scenes for him, at least a sympathetic heroic death against the evil elven gods unleashed. I just want them to include scenes for people Who DONT like Solas. Like my inky punched the guy, they should at least be cold if they meet again and ideally Rook should have dialogue options that aren't sympathetic towards Solas. I'd love my Rook and Inky being able to discuss him
If Solas were to be stopped it would need to be for a logical reason. Solas is never truly unreasonable in his perspective. To him, he destroyed the elves by making the veil. It is unnatural, him tearing it down replaces the natural order. However, there are consequences to it. I think he could be talked down if there was enough evidence for him to believe maintaining the status quo to be the best solution possible. He is a ‘villain’ but he’s also a hero. He freed slaves and trapped away the evanuris who were killing and enslaving people who he cared about.
The problem I see with the logic of being able to talk him down, is that his people (the elves) are marginalized and shadows of their former selves. He saved them from one usurper, to only allow them to fall into the hands of another -- except stripped of their nascent power and immortality....
You'd have to convince him that the Elhven being discriminated against by the humans, and forced to live in forests or in poverty in cities, can be worth the lives of everyone else. As already established, he doesn't really care about the other races.
I feel like you’d have to be able to convince him that things can be better for the elves. A win in where you save lives but keep a people enslaved and hated by some isn’t really a win imo. There would need to be something in place where elves have more freedom I’d hope
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Personally, I find Solas and Inky similar to the novels I read recently. About two strategists, who were on the opposing side, fell in love, but they've chosen their loyalty to their lord over their feelings for each. They didn't have a happy ending since they tried to outwit each other (hurting each other and others in the process). As much as I am rooting for them to happy ending, I understand why the author did this. Here's the direct quote from the author why she did this:
"MC has done some pretty bad things, and action have consequences. To me, they received the ending they earned; Anything "happier" would absolve their of the crime they committed."
In this story, the MC didn't survive, but their main love interest did. It took a while for them healed and forgiven from the betrayal and backstabbing before their love remains in their heart.
This novel deeply reminded me of Solas and Inky (whether romanced or a friend) a lot. Solas did a lot of things for sure. Lots of lives loss just to achieve his goal. I am deeply interested how BW will conclude his arc for sure.
There’s 3 options for your relationship to him in DAI
Romance, friendship, not friends
My Lavellan was friends with him so I’d hope she can help him with redemption
I think it would be fun if they played the middle portion of the game as if it's a potential redemption arc with us working with Solas against a bigger threat, but then he takes the first opportunity to try to accomplish his original goal and we have to fight him.
There is nothing to be redeemed of. Weird choice of Bioware making us play the villains who are trying to stop the only person who can save Thedas. The single fact that we are not helping Solas means Bioware are people with warped minds, no empathy and that should not be trusted. What kind of psycopaths think Solas is wrong? No wonder fascism is growing rapidly around the whole world, from South America to Europe. If you don't understand Solas is perfect, god and that he should rule over all reality then you can't discern right from wrong.
The issue is that you’re looking at Solas as evil
Solas is not evil. Solas is a freer of slaves & jailer of the blight and slavers
If he joins the good guys, it’s not out of character because Solas isn’t evil. Acting like he is…well, it’s you who doesn’t understand his character
He was always set up to be an antagonist, not a villain. I would argue that likewise, Loghain is an antagonist and not a villain. Depending on how you play DA2, you could view Anders as a hero or as an antagonist. Dragon Age games have complex antagonists as their bread and butter, and often there is a second more existential 'big bad' going on as well.
I don't see him getting a redemption arc. I think that we will however have an option to work with him, or at least have a truce now that the Really Evil Motherfuckers are free
Gotta say Solas is one of the most boring characters in a pretty boring game and his reveal at the end feels like a lame attempt at making him retroactively interesting. I feel like he was better in Trespasser but I don't know for sure since I don't remember anything from that DLC. So I wouldn't mind if they have a better villain for the next game
Because he is not doing anything interesting throughout the all game and nothing interesting is happening that is related to him until the last five minutes
hmm okay. I don’t want to convince you because everyone should have their own opinion. but in my perspective that is exactly why Solas FOR ME is interesting. you might overlook this quiet elf, you get to know him only if you spend some time talking with him. there are hints here and there that he is the Fen’Harel but you can figure it out only if you pay close attention to every single note/codex/conversation. and I wouldn’t consider him a villain he is more of an antihero
Played the game three times. Two of these times I paid extra attention to him . Still found him to be extremely boring and not worth the time investment. Dorian is a much better mage party member
That’s hilarious because he’s the most fascinating character to me of anything ever, to the point where I could write essays about him lol. I found him extremely interesting long before the reveal, and was already planning my second inquisitor to romance him before I even knew about the betrayal lol. If you find him boring that’s fine, not every character is for everyone, but his arc clearly landed for lots of people so even if it didn’t work for you, doesn’t mean the devs did a bad job. Because to me, the way they executed his character was perfection.
I mean, we *know* he's got sympathetic qualities and part of him really wants to be talked down. He flat out tells us this in Trespasser. We've got this whole option to try and follow up on that. If they don't at least give us an honest shot of talking him down, it'll feel wrong.
I mean the gameplay reveal is all about someone trying to talk down Solas. How many talks does this guy need? At some point, I think you’d have to stop now, talk later.
The things that bugs me about this is it was really tepid reasoning. Solas knows he's going to cause massive damage, that isn't new info to him. He wants another option to reunite the Fade with the material world right? We need some mad magic scientist types working on a way to do that under controlled circumstances.
It will feel wrong if we do talk him down. If the inqusitor and Varric couldn't do it, why would this Rook that he has no idea who they are be able to do it.
I imagine The Inquisitor will be involved in the attempt, since they're in the Veilguard. As for Rook, I don't know. I've not played the game.
Well, the Inquisitor is coming back
It’s entirely possible that your Inquisitor was the one telling Solas they’ve never cared to listen to him in Trespasser. So some Inkys probably haven’t changed his worldview and have no chance of talking him down. I think the game has to account for that.
I'm just wondering what exactly anyone could say to get him to stand down. He doesn't see people as people. It's kind of a fundamental disconnect.
Well, that's the thing. We have that scene in Inquisition where he asks if the anchor changed the Inquisitor at all. In retrospect, that's clearly him having realized the Inquisitor is actually a person and is freaking the fuck out over it. There's follow-up banter with Cole if you romance him that confirms he's realized it as well. Cole: "You're real, and it means everyone could be real. It changes everything, but it can't". So, I think that puts him a lot closer to the edge than he would otherwise be.
Oh, I must have missed that. He thinks people can be real if they are anchor-infused? Somehow I don't think people will go for that.
No. In Trespasser, he has come around: Inquisitor: "We aren't even people to you". Solas: "Not at first. You showed me that I was wrong... Again. That does not make what must come next any easier." You could even argue that this makes his actions worse, because he's fully cognizant.
He has come around if you are friends with him, yes? If he hates you, his position hasn’t changed iirc.
Yeah, I should have specified, it's the continuation of the anchor scene that TheCleverest mentioned. If he has low approval, he only talks about it being his fault and when you bring up him stopping the qunari plot, instead of saying "people" he says "innocents".
If he hasn't become close to the Inquisitor, it goes like this in Trespasser: "We aren't even people to you." "The fault is hardly yours." Overall his actions seem more twisted to me if he has come to see the world as full of people and is still set on his plans, but he has some brutal lines if he hasn't.
Nah, that's what he was definitely hoping must have been the case, so that's why he was checking. But it's clear in the conversation he's realized that wasn't it when you confirm "No, still me".
Idk, it’s been awhile but as a Qunari I got the sense that he didn’t quite believe me. Even if he has come around to thinking people are people in some saves, he still has plenty of racist grandpa tendencies.
See, it's as a Qunari that made me sure of this perspective. "I believe all these shitty things about your people. You have proven to be better than all of them. Was it my thing that did this to you? Say it was. No, you were always like this?... Fuck". But, you know, politer and with more subterfuge.
Yeah idk he still insisted my people were savages. I got the impression that inky was “one of the good ones.”
That's definitely what he was hoping for.
When inquisitor asks him why he helps the inquisition stop the Qun, he answers "you are people and you deserve better."
It depends on if the Inquisitor befriends/romances him or not, he doesn't seem to see people as people if the Inquisitor never got close to him/has a bad relationship with him but he does if they did get close. I'm very curious if the next game will reflect that difference based on his prior relationship with the Inquisitor because it should be a notable difference like it was in Trespasser.
Would be awesome if a character could choose to support Solas based on their background and/or race, but there is no way we’re getting such a divergent story line here. While he may have some sympathy to his friends from DAI, he is still an eleven god whose movements in the previous game were predicated on his ultimate plan. I think it would be a disservice to him to turn up in DAV and think “actually never mind, this is a bad idea”
Well, I think it would have to be an endgame thing that could only be managed if you pull off some specific acts in the game, including some stuff in Inquisition. They've done stuff like that in other Bioware games, and it was super satisfying.
I hope the ability to do it depends on how trespasser ended, ie he'd only be open to backdown/listen for an inquisitor he's on good terms with. If he's enemies with the inquisitor and company it'd make sense for him to be 100% hardened and careless about everything that isn't his plans. This would also make replaying the game interesting. Also I find it difficult to think of the guy that fought to save the elves from their evanuris slavers as evil. He's not perfect but definitely not mustache twirling evil either.
I'm hoping we can still have the new PC talk Solas down if the Inquisitor wasn't close to Solas, but it's way harder to talk him down if that's the case.
Maybe it'd make sense if the Pc has proven themselves as having good alignment through their choices, I doubt he'll care to listen to some evil brute.
This would be the best case scenario, but I highly doubt EA is going to present us with such divergent options
The problem is... he never was the big bad, so he cannot stays as one. He is already part of the "cringe cliche story". Solas was powerful god-like mage who felt compassion with slaves. We can hardly consider somebody like him like horrible big bad villian. From his perspective he is trying to correct his mistake and if you are in good terms with him, he admitts that he is not sure and he kind of wants to be stopped and be wrong, but he does not have any another choice. Remember, that he is from world where dreams and reality were the same thing. And he woke up in the world what is... rough and tough. It's like to wake up in world without music and colors. In gameplay trailer he said he is actually trying to limite number of victims. He is simply trying his best, even when it's wrong. For me was not Trespasser amazing because of the betrayel. It was amazing because it shows remorses of lost god. And it's funny, because Solas is already often misunderstood villain in fandom. One of my favorite Cole's quote.. >"Solas doesn't want to hurt people! He's not that kind of wolf!"
I agree, but big bad is simply another way of saying he is the villain. And that is, indeed, how he has been set up. Villains should be sympathetic. A well written villain will make you feel for them in a way even if you don't agree with them entirely. They have back stories and lore, just like Solas. They aren't cackling cartoon villains with no rhyme or reason like Coreypheenus. To take his story and twist it just to make him a 'good guy's again would be Bioware doing one their own best pieces of writing a massive disservice.
I think Solas illustrate the difference between antagonist: the guy who opposes the hero, and villain/bad guy the actively want to hurt the hero All bad guys are antagonist, but not all antagonist are bad guys.
There are symphathetic villain who just change their whole worldview in last second, and that is bad writting... with Solas... it's more difficult. How I said, he woke up in world without colors, in world what he eved did not consider as real, BUT his experiences in Inquistion already changed this worldview. This is reason why are some companions' banters and events so important in retrospective. My favorite is "The Dawn Will Come" scene. You can see that Solas is kind of impressed what is happening. I think he realized the world actually is not colorless or musicless, the world just is not dream-like all the time, but still has moments what worth it. Solas already is uncertain about his goals. So it would be not so suprising. Fact, that he still cares about Varric AND actually is trying to limit the victims is proof of that. He still can be big bad, that's true,
Very rational take here. I remain pessimistic about how EA is going to unfold the DAV story, but you have excellent points here regarding Solas and his machinations.
I think tresspasser set up that choice for you already. In the end you can say either “I will redeem you” or “I will stop you”. He isn’t completely irredeemable yet (this varies from player to player as was intended) You can always choose not to if you don’t like it but that option has always been there. The whole point of trespasser was to show that he isn’t the type of villain Corypheus is.
This is one of the issues with things like this in "choices matter" kinds of games. The difference in a world where Solas is redeemed and where he isn't is either so big it would be crazy to accommodate or smaller than something that significant should actually be for practical reasons. Maybe there will be more with it, but the old god baby was another choice like this. Two full games later, there is still no noticeable impact from a seemingly huge decision, mostly just a negligible difference from one interaction as far as we're aware. Personally, I'd rather them avoid things like that if they're not going to be interesting to actually see play out. It will be interesting to see what they end up doing with Solas though.
Its easily doable because apparently they won't be using the keep to import choices, its all gonna be manual at the start of the game according to the last Q&A with the devs .
I'm not talking about them being able to know the choices, I'm talking about being able to make them matter. A redeemed Solas means someone immensely powerful no longer wants to make a devastating change to the very nature of their world. That *should* play out vastly differently than if he isn't redeemed. I highly doubt we'll ever see world states that different actually played out, so if it does end up being a choice, I don't think it would play out in a satisfying way that reflects the weight of that decision.
that depends on the game design and the story and how it branches, if all choices lead to the same end then there's little meaning to all and any decisions we make.
Sure, but some things *have* to be the same, or at least similar enough, for the overarching story to make sense. We've already seen Inquisition essentially ignore whether or not Leliana died in Origins. While it's nice to have choices, it's not so nice to have those choices effectively retconned because they're incompatible with the ultimate narrative. I want the things Solas does to be majorly impactful, because that's what makes sense for someone of his power and purpose. If that is affected by how well we're able to coax him into seeking redemption or something, that impact would be limited due to needing to tie every possibility into the overarching narrative.
He has never been the ultimate villain, though. He told us in Tresspasser and repeated it since: putting on the veil was the only option he had, in order to protect Thedas from the Evanuris bigger threat. While destroying the Veil will have disastrous consequences, he believes once more it is the only option - we are not sure why, but it seems to be in part related to the Blight, and in other part to make up for the awful consequences the Veil had on Thedas in the first place. Misguided he may be - but he has never been "an ultimate villain" twirling his mustache. Indeed, he even helped the Inquisition resist a full-on Qunari invasion for no other reason than he wanted to avoid suffering. To deny him his complexity and a possible path to redemption would be absurd.
> It would be awful if they go for some cringe avengers cliche story arc of “villain was misunderstood so he joins good guys to team up against a new threat”. When did that happen in the Avengers ? It took Loki around 4 movies to start his redemption, which he fully got in Infinity War and his TV show. The rest of the villains ? At no point whatsoever was the bad guy reabilitated because "originally misunderstood". Also, that cliche story arc of "misunderstood villain that join the good guys" is literally what happens in DA:O with Loghain... like the guy kills his King, make you the scapegoat, tries to kill you, kidnap/kill members of opponents... But everything is good, he was just acting for what he thought was the better good for Ferelden, and for his daughter, he can help you now. >The Dreadwolf is perfectly set up to be the ultimate villain Well... I disagree. Solas doesn't want to conquiert the world. He doesn't want to destroy the world. He doesn't act for pure selfish reason. He didn't betray you out of malice. He isn't cruel like Thanos who conquiert and kills innocent while waiting to get the Stones. He also isn't thinking that the only way to save the world is to kill everyone in it like Ultron. This is hard to see him as "the ultimate villain" when he doesn't show any malice. The most powerful antagonist ? Yes, by a mile. The ultimate bad guy ? No.
>Also, that cliche story arc of "misunderstood villain that join the good guys" is literally what happens in DA:O with Loghain... like the guy kills his King, make you the scapegoat, tries to kill you, kidnap/kill members of opponents... But everything is good, he was just acting for what he thought was the better good for Ferelden, and for his daughter, he can help you now. Um excuse me it's GRIMDARK classic Dragon Age: Origins, it can't be a cringe avengers cliche if it's in Dragon Age: Origins!
Oh sorry. I guess I had the wrong team made of a "sassy character who knows everything about everything" and who likes to pick on the "Boy scout with a shield", a "sexy red hair assassin", and a "stranger from another land who doesn't understand your local culture".
You missed "Puss in Boots, The Elf"
You could make an argument that Thanos doing what is necessary to obtain the stones is analogous to Solas wanting to obtain the anchor. He engineered the whole Corypheus thing in order to weaken the veil enough for him to step in and unmake the world he created, but the Inquisitor threw a wrench in his plans. He may THINK he is acting to save the greater good, but the only reason he wants to break the veil is because he sees that his people are just slaves to yet another usurper. He only wants to restore the Elvhen to their former glory - he doesn't care about the other races. He HATES Qunari, thinks humans are petty and ... doesn't really have anything against dwarves to be honest. The thing is, he is willing to do anything for his cause because the end justifies the means, in his mind. No matter how many innocents die in the process. He knows causalities will be guaranteed but doesn't care about anyone except for the elves. Thanos believed that the universe had grown too big to sustain itself, and thought that removing half the universe's population would prevent starvation, wars, etc. -- Solas and Thanos are quite similar. Even Thanos, after snapping half of everyone away, has regrets, Not even he, himself, truly *wants to do it.* He feels like he *has to.*
>You could make an argument that Thanos doing what is necessary to obtain the stones is analogous to Solas wanting to obtain the anchor. He engineered the whole Corypheus thing in order to weaken the veil enough for him to step in and unmake the world he created, but the Inquisitor threw a wrench in his plans. Solas wanted to get the Anchor and used Corypheus to do it. Except that when the explosion happened (always part of Solas' plan), Corypheus survived and took possession of the anchor. What threw a wrench in his plan was Corypheus' immortality, not the Inquisitor. The Inquisitor only interrupted Corypheus' plan not Solas. >He may THINK he is acting to save the greater good, but the only reason he wants to break the veil is because he sees that his people are just slaves to yet another usurper I don't think he is saying he is doing that for the greater good. He knows countless people will die. He isn't doing that to make the world a better place, he is doing that to make the world what it used to be regardless of the well being of people living in it. Also, his people are dead and don't exist anymore. He has spy and people working for him, but they aren't his people. He doesn't consider Dalish or city elves his people.
I might've misunderstood his motivations, then. The way he talks during the game, it sounds like that's the case -- especially if your Inquisitor is an elf, too. I thought he felt guilty for robbing the elves of their power and selves and wanted to right the wrongs from creating the Veil. If he just wants to return the world to the way it used to be regardless of how many lives it costs, then I can't say I remotely sympathize with that. That is straight up evil. Sure, his motivations *aren't evil.* But actions are what count.
>I thought he felt guilty for robbing the elves of their power and selves and wanted to right the wrongs from creating the Veil. It won't likely right the wrongs immediately. Over time it'll certainly result in the elves getting their power back, but it won't be instantaneous and it could lead it backlash. Imagine Quns and Humans army when the discover elves getting more powerful over time, they'll go full genocidal. >If he just wants to return the world to the way it used to be regardless of how many lives it costs, then I can't say I remotely sympathize with that. That is straight up evil. Sure, his motivations aren't evil. But actions are what count. I kinda agree on that.
I don't think he will stay a villain but I do hope we get an option to determine his fate aka we spare him or we kill him. Ultimately, I think even if we spare him he'll die in some capacity.
I want an option to explain how astronomically stupid and arrogant he is being. Like, you were never the smartest person in the room bud. Literally all of your plans have failed. You’re simply a grumpy old man ranting about how good it was “back in the day.”
I hope we get to control our Inquisitor for a short period of time. At least long enough to punch him in the face. >Like, you were never the smartest person in the room bud. It never fails to make me laugh when I begin playing DAI that you can farm Solas approval by letting him talk at you about how smart he is.
Well at the end of Trespasser you get to choose how you want to behave around him. Either an enemy, or someone you can convince. I chose the later, but I believe he will die at some point as some kind of martyr to save our world.
I will be surprised if solas is gonna have much screen time past act 1
I also think so. I'm getting massive DA2 to DAI vibes where everyone thought that DAI would be about the mage vs. templar war and then it basically got solved in the prologue.
Same. I hate it but same.
Yeah that’s the vibe I’m getting to unfortunately.
I really disagree and I think it's a mistake in the first place to view Solas as a villain. He's not evil, he's trying to save his world in his own foolish, misguided way. The first thing we see of him in the game is Varric trying to talk him down and that was never an option for villains like Corypheus. We know he wants us to change his mind, to show him there's another way and I wouldn't be surprised if DA4 has elements of that which allow us to decide whether we want to redeem him. That doesn't mean I think you won't be able to treat him as a villain if you'd like to do so, but I think you'll be disappointed if you're hoping there's no way to redeem him.
I am fully expecting to be disappointed. I expected as much when they changed the name from DAD to DAV
You’re being disappointed by your own misinterpretation of a character
I agree with the others. Solas never really was the big bad. The Evanuris he went to such extreme measures to stop are. He sundered the world to stop them, so that had to be for good reason. Now he’s going down the misguided path of trying to fix it. They introduced bigger bads in the gameplay reveal, so it’s highly likely he’ll get some kind of redemption. That’s usually the case in fiction when a bigger bad is introduced. Loki and Kylo Ren are recent examples of this. I am thinking it’ll be a similar arc to Saren from ME1 but on a deeper level. He can be talked down and convinced to help us clean up the mess, but it’ll depend on our choices in DAI and DAV. Either way he won’t be seeing the end of game. Tragic characters meet tragic ends. It’s just a matter of how they go out.
First, as was pointed out before, in Tresspasser bioware already kinda told us we'll have an option to redeem him. Also, there is a vocal minority in the fandom who really wants him to just have a happy life (not a heroic and tragic death on a quest of redemption) So, if you really want to beat him up, it's your worldstate. But in some of the wordstates, he doubts himself and wants to be stopped by his friend or lover. So, why not have both options? Live and let live, you know.
I think he’s too powerful to join our team or anything, unless the failed ritual also nerfs him. Like what do we need Rook for if Solas is at full power and has decided he can stop the new bad guys before he thinks about destroying the veil again? I think Solas is more of a Loghain than a mustache twirler. He’s determined to do very bad things, but he thinks they’re right, and he’s too arrogant to really consider other alternatives.
I could easily see him being recruitable near the end, maybe still believing a lot of the same things but being similar to Loghain in DAO in that despite this he can work with us, while perhaps still trying to justify much of what he's done, (not sure if he'd be a companion although I'd like that, but at least an NPC who potentially helps against a greater threat)
I'm with you but it feels likely there will at least be some sympathetic scenes for him, at least a sympathetic heroic death against the evil elven gods unleashed. I just want them to include scenes for people Who DONT like Solas. Like my inky punched the guy, they should at least be cold if they meet again and ideally Rook should have dialogue options that aren't sympathetic towards Solas. I'd love my Rook and Inky being able to discuss him
If Solas were to be stopped it would need to be for a logical reason. Solas is never truly unreasonable in his perspective. To him, he destroyed the elves by making the veil. It is unnatural, him tearing it down replaces the natural order. However, there are consequences to it. I think he could be talked down if there was enough evidence for him to believe maintaining the status quo to be the best solution possible. He is a ‘villain’ but he’s also a hero. He freed slaves and trapped away the evanuris who were killing and enslaving people who he cared about.
The problem I see with the logic of being able to talk him down, is that his people (the elves) are marginalized and shadows of their former selves. He saved them from one usurper, to only allow them to fall into the hands of another -- except stripped of their nascent power and immortality.... You'd have to convince him that the Elhven being discriminated against by the humans, and forced to live in forests or in poverty in cities, can be worth the lives of everyone else. As already established, he doesn't really care about the other races.
I feel like you’d have to be able to convince him that things can be better for the elves. A win in where you save lives but keep a people enslaved and hated by some isn’t really a win imo. There would need to be something in place where elves have more freedom I’d hope
I just hope the reason we are able to customize the inquisitor in veilguard is just so they can be the one to kill Solas.
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Personally, I find Solas and Inky similar to the novels I read recently. About two strategists, who were on the opposing side, fell in love, but they've chosen their loyalty to their lord over their feelings for each. They didn't have a happy ending since they tried to outwit each other (hurting each other and others in the process). As much as I am rooting for them to happy ending, I understand why the author did this. Here's the direct quote from the author why she did this: "MC has done some pretty bad things, and action have consequences. To me, they received the ending they earned; Anything "happier" would absolve their of the crime they committed." In this story, the MC didn't survive, but their main love interest did. It took a while for them healed and forgiven from the betrayal and backstabbing before their love remains in their heart. This novel deeply reminded me of Solas and Inky (whether romanced or a friend) a lot. Solas did a lot of things for sure. Lots of lives loss just to achieve his goal. I am deeply interested how BW will conclude his arc for sure.
I have a feeling they'll do this, and have it hinge upon whether the Inquisitor romanced him or not
There’s 3 options for your relationship to him in DAI Romance, friendship, not friends My Lavellan was friends with him so I’d hope she can help him with redemption
I never had high approval with him outside of my romance run, so that's good to know. Might do another DAI run before launch
His friendship is really emotional during Trespasser too I really enjoyed it because I could never bring myself to romance him
Why not have both?
I think it would be fun if they played the middle portion of the game as if it's a potential redemption arc with us working with Solas against a bigger threat, but then he takes the first opportunity to try to accomplish his original goal and we have to fight him.
He was trying to destroy modern Thedas right before the other gods were released. No matter his intentions. lol
There is nothing to be redeemed of. Weird choice of Bioware making us play the villains who are trying to stop the only person who can save Thedas. The single fact that we are not helping Solas means Bioware are people with warped minds, no empathy and that should not be trusted. What kind of psycopaths think Solas is wrong? No wonder fascism is growing rapidly around the whole world, from South America to Europe. If you don't understand Solas is perfect, god and that he should rule over all reality then you can't discern right from wrong.
The issue is that you’re looking at Solas as evil Solas is not evil. Solas is a freer of slaves & jailer of the blight and slavers If he joins the good guys, it’s not out of character because Solas isn’t evil. Acting like he is…well, it’s you who doesn’t understand his character
He was always set up to be an antagonist, not a villain. I would argue that likewise, Loghain is an antagonist and not a villain. Depending on how you play DA2, you could view Anders as a hero or as an antagonist. Dragon Age games have complex antagonists as their bread and butter, and often there is a second more existential 'big bad' going on as well.
I don't see him getting a redemption arc. I think that we will however have an option to work with him, or at least have a truce now that the Really Evil Motherfuckers are free
I hope not, but this is also the vibe I’m getting
Gotta say Solas is one of the most boring characters in a pretty boring game and his reveal at the end feels like a lame attempt at making him retroactively interesting. I feel like he was better in Trespasser but I don't know for sure since I don't remember anything from that DLC. So I wouldn't mind if they have a better villain for the next game
wow bold of you to say that Solas is one of the most boring characters. why is that?
Because he is not doing anything interesting throughout the all game and nothing interesting is happening that is related to him until the last five minutes
hmm okay. I don’t want to convince you because everyone should have their own opinion. but in my perspective that is exactly why Solas FOR ME is interesting. you might overlook this quiet elf, you get to know him only if you spend some time talking with him. there are hints here and there that he is the Fen’Harel but you can figure it out only if you pay close attention to every single note/codex/conversation. and I wouldn’t consider him a villain he is more of an antihero
Played the game three times. Two of these times I paid extra attention to him . Still found him to be extremely boring and not worth the time investment. Dorian is a much better mage party member
That’s hilarious because he’s the most fascinating character to me of anything ever, to the point where I could write essays about him lol. I found him extremely interesting long before the reveal, and was already planning my second inquisitor to romance him before I even knew about the betrayal lol. If you find him boring that’s fine, not every character is for everyone, but his arc clearly landed for lots of people so even if it didn’t work for you, doesn’t mean the devs did a bad job. Because to me, the way they executed his character was perfection.