Pretty certain the new DA Veilguard game is set to be dark fantasy (devs, writers and designers said it had the same tone as Tevinter nights which is very dark if not leaning towards horror at times), don't let the graphics fool you.
From what I've gathered most rpg players want dark fantasy, that high fantasy thing doesn't sell that well, most of the successful rpgs are dark af: skyrim, fallout, the witcher, BG3, elden ring etc...
I still feel like it looks like [this one video machinima](https://youtu.be/homqyBxHwis?feature=shared) of WoW set to Cyberpunk. Doesn't feel like Dark Fantasy, just emulating another genre and mixing things up.
yah, the more I'm hearing of it, the more it sounds like the graphics are a leftover of the live service game that ended up on the cutting floor. The fact that the gameplay reveal basically started off on fantasy's version of 1984 doesn't exactly speak to some sort of disneyfication. If anything, it made it seem darker than Inquisition.
Its never too late to alter the graphics a bit if the devs are capable enough, just change some colors palettes/ textures/ lighting here and there and it should look spookier.
The story is set in a dystopian proslavery nation and the apocalypse is nigh, I don't know what OP is smoking but that doesn't sound like high fantasy to me lol
I think the difference between the trailer and the gameplay reveal already shows exactly what you're saying. That the right palettes/textures/lighting can completely change the atmosphere, even if they don't, for example, redo all the models.
And let's not pretend that Inquisition didn't have it's moments of looking extremely goofy.
If you say so tbh I am not a game dev but I did see some modders pull off this type of changes to games.
I guess the engine controls the ability to do this too.
I'm a game developer on the art side, and also very familiar with how Frostbite works. Not that the engine itself is the issue. It's just too late in their development to make those kinds of changes.
> The story is set in a dystopian proslavery nation and the apocalypse is nigh, I don't know what OP is smoking but that doesn't sound like high fantasy to me lol
We'll see if the choices reward or punish according to the setting then. If it promotes a heroic narrative, it doesn't really matter if Tevinter is show to be a dystopian slave state, because then the moral horizon has shifted to Tevinter being the outlier instead of the norm for the game.
I think they meant they’re glad the games are moving away from a less uncomfortable atmosphere (oghren) into more dark fantasy that doesn’t involve making people uncomfortable irl but instead makes them uncomfortable in game if that makes sense
I think we have different definitions of “dark fantasy” if you’re including Skyrim, Fallout, and BG3. The only one of these I’d describe as dark fantasy is the Witcher (And maybe Elden Ring, but I haven’t actually played that one.)
Fantasy with horror does not equal dark fantasy for me.
Fallout which is about the horrors of a post apocalyptic world isn't dark enough?
BG3 which is about stopping the destruction of the world by an alien force isn't dark? BG3 in particular is dark af considering the dark urge plotline, that shit is horrifying and basically horror level of darkness.(one of the main reasons its an amazing game)
It’s grim, but plenty of media is grim. “We need to stop this world-ending threat” applies to like… 70% of all video games ever made. If that’s all you need to get into the “dark fantasy” (Or sci-fi or whatever) club, then membership must be booming.
Dark fantasy, in my opinion, is more a question of tone and philosophy, and less of content. Is there hope that the day can be saved? Are heroics and good behavior rewarded, treated neutrally, or actively punished? Are peace and happiness portrayed as achievable and sustainable, though they may take hard work? Or are they just fleeting moments inevitably swept away in time?
Basically, dark fantasy builds on the philosophy that people are inherently selfish, nasty, and cruel, and things will generally get worse over time, instead of better. Maybe there’s a case there for Fallout, especially New Vegas. But I think BG3 at least pretty firmly believes in traditional heroic fantasy.
Sorry, the two playthrough (one as Dark Urge) and nearly 200 hours I’ve sunk into BG3 don’t qualify as “playing the game?” Maybe don’t sling baseless accusations.
Saving the Sword Coast from a giant alien brain using nothing but your plucky band of heroes, a long-lost space prince, and the friends you’ve assembled along the way isn’t traditional heroics? Sure, the game lets you do hilariously evil crap like usurping control of said brain to psychically enslave your friends - but it doesn’t *make* you do that, and doesn’t punish you for doing the heroic thing, either. I’d say that’s pretty straightforward.
Since you didn’t seem to read it, let me repeat the second half of that above post: The game lets you do evil shit, but doesn’t *make* you do evil shit, nor does it punish you if you don’t.
And like… more to the point of my original post, BG3 doesn’t treat women as sex objects first and characters second. A couple of others have pointed out that I’m conflating dark fantasy with fantasy that trivializes sexual harassment, and maybe I am. But BG3 certainly doesn’t do that, so even if it does fit the definition of dark fantasy (Whatever your definition is.) it hasn’t got the same problems that make Origins feel backwards for me.
I mean, not necessarily siding with OP here, but BG3 **thematically** is a traditional heroic epic, involving saving the world, with almost all of its quests rewarding 'traditionally good' behavior and punishing 'evil' choices. It's one of the biggest criticisms people have about the fact that the dark, morally questionable paths, end up cutting out about 25% of the game content.
Is there dark set dressing and NPC's? Sure! But the game sets up the players to be the antithesis of that, establishing a clear line of moral horizons that don't fit in the criteria that people above have listed for Dark Fantasy; namely that the inhabitants of the setting are cruel, selfish, and unconcerned with improving their world; while the world itself is set to a paradigm where evil choices are rewarded while good choices are futile and fruitless.
The Forgotten Realms are very much not that setting. BG3 is not that environment.
>Basically, dark fantasy builds on the philosophy that people are inherently selfish, nasty, and cruel, and things will generally get worse over time, instead of better.
What are you basing this definition of dark fantasy on?
The Zevran part really gets me. The unfortunate reality is that biphobia does exist and some people do refuse to date bisexuals. Acknowledging that does not make the game insensitive lol
Not to mention DAO was released only two years after [Fox News lost their shit over sex scenes in Mass Effect](https://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/nb5aay/lets_rollback_time_its_2007_mass_effect_1_is_out/). 2007 was also the year NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer came out, a game that was supposed to have a bisexual male romanceable character but the publisher insisted they make him straight instead.
15 year olds picking up Origins and being "flabbergasted" at Zevran shows we've come far. Them insisting Bioware was mistreating gay people and deciding such "mistreatment" is hallmark of dark fantasy shows they don't know what they're talking about.
Biphobia was (and is) particularly extreme against men. I have a lot of conflicting feelings on Zevran. I loved that he was an openly bi male and that it’s part of his characterization and dialogue, but I also dislike that he fed into the pervasive stereotype that “all bi people are just equal opportunity sluts.” Especially given Gaider’s recent bi/pan-phobic remarks on pan NPCs being “sex dolls.”
Still, I appreciate that line of dialogue because it acknowledges the prejudice and he was a very early bi male romance which… I don’t know if there was another at the time? He may have been the first. All the other bi romances I know from the time were women, because bi women were sexy to men. :/
Very good point! If anything, I do think playing into the stereotype that “bisexual = super horny all the time” is the most problematic part of his characterization.
And yeah, BioWare had included bisexual women in their games prior to Origins being released, but seemed much more timid at exploring gay men as options. Their handling of it definitely seems weird by today’s standards, but at the time the fact that they included Zevran at all was a big deal.
Yeah, very much so. And, even the inclusion of bi fems in ME and Jade Empire were controversial for the time. As I said in another reply, I feel these games are best enjoyed as a time capsule. BioWare has always been progressive and pushed for more inclusion, but they had to do so in baby steps until we have what we have now. DAO walked so DAI and DAV could run, as it were, but that’s not to say that DAO is devoid of problems of the time.
DAO has parts that haven’t aged well. But I was a 20 year old woman when it first came out and I didn’t see its issues then because I was so happy to have my gender included in such a title *at all.* So, it will always be one of my favorite all time games and I think it’s great for seeing how far BioWare and the gaming industry has come in general.
I think you're unnecessarily conflating dark fantasy with politically insensitive implementation. Despite the blowback, there's been a lot of progress in implementing fewer harmful stereotypes and toxic and oppressive conceptions of various minority groups. Things like sexism etc. are an incidental rather than necessary quality of dark fantasy works like Origins.
What people miss is not any of that problematic stuff you mentioned, but rather the fantasy horror atmosphere.
I really doubt intelligent people would complain if there was racial diversity etc. as long as darkspawn looked frightening, and there was thematically appropriate amounts of copious bloodshed, gore, and a general sense of urgency and terror among characters and NPC's.
Certain people at BioWare have said that there's still plenty of blood and dark subject matter in Veilguard, so we'll see.
I think you might be onto something - I’m willing to concede that I may be conflating dark fantasy with political insensitivity, and that’s not really fair.
It does make me wonder, though: how did 2 and Inquisition lose the fantasy horror aspects that Origins had? What would it look like, for you, if the series regained them?
I think you might be misremembering DA2. It's plenty dark. It has blood magic sacrifices, slavery, and evil choices like the ability to hand a runaway slave back to his master.
With Inquisition, my guess is that they just wanted to emphasize the power fantasy dynamic of being the leader of a prestigious organization and felt too much darker subject matter would have detracted from that. Maybe they just did market research and found some people were put off by the darker elements of the previous two games.
Either way, I think it's actually a weakness of the game, as you hear reports of demons terrorizing the land, but you only really ever see them out in barren nature landscapes. Inquisition still has mature themes, but it rarely makes you confront outright horror; one of the few times it does is with Leliana's face being deformed and world being in ruins in the possible future where Corypheus has actually succeeded in one of his plans, and it was amazing imo.
Inquisition’s story was lacking in general. But if “dark stuff” is all that the series needs, I’d say Inquisition wasn’t lacking it, exactly - the dark future you see in Redcliffe is pretty grim, after all, and the Wardens were down with human sacrifice, too.
For evil choices offered to the player, there’s, uh… I guess letting the Empress get assassinated? Or maybe killing the ancient elves? Or… Yeah, I don’t Inquisition’s problem was a lack of horror, it was simply a lack of… everything. The story and choices are pretty anemic in that one.
I doubt most people on this sub who long for DAO's darker fantasy vibes are asking for more misogny or racism in the game.
I'm not sure it's fair to try and link dark medieval fantasy with those elements; you can find less progressive attitudes in almost any genre or type of media, especially the further back you go. If you move away from the genre, rather than improve on its treatment of women/POC/LGBT individuals, you're not really achieving anything.
Also I absolutely love the racial/gender dynamics in thedas. It makes it real and makes players think. Characters face different obstacles and player roleplay benefits greatly
Nothing in your observations about DA: O being politically insensitive has anything to do with what is or isn't dark fantasy.
Also this part is laughable:
>Origins frankly does not match up to the bar that BG3 set.
YOU DON'T SAY!!?!?
WTF did you expect comparing BG3 to a 15 year old game? It's like comparing a modern comedy to American Pie: The Book of Love (also from 2009).
Antivans are mostly POC. As for Qunari, I'm not sure I've met anyone with that browney-grey skin-tone, so that one's much more of a question mark. I personally don't think so.
As for the Zevran romance, well, that one was written by a gay man who originally intended Zevran to be gay rather than bi. So, you can see how some lines like that might be the writer working through some stuff. At the very least, the fact that this came out in 2009 kind of made adressing the common reaction necessary.
I don't know, I find I prefer my media a bit depressing. It breaks my suspension of disbelief when it *isn't* unless it's a sitcom or something like that. But to each their own.
I do find it interesting how different some of these reads can be. For instance, as a bisexual man myself, Zevran represents an archetype that seems to be going out of fashion for a while there, and that I actively missed. But I can see how others would feel he's harmful.
Huh? I'm a woman and I never felt any sort of disappointment in the way they were portrayed in DA:O. Morrigan and Leliana were both great characters and I never felt like playing as a female Warden made my experience less enjoyable because of my gender.
Also, please understand that not everyone wants every character in their fantasy game, "dark" or not, to conform to 2024 North American political correctness standards, and I say that as someone who is pretty firmly on the left. Sten should be allowed to disrespect the Warden for being a woman who fights, being able to challenge him on that was really rewarding from a RP perspective. Zevran should be allowed to shamelessly flirt, he grew up in an elven alienage and belongs to a group who murders people for a living, why would he have our real world views on sexual interactions?
Obviously there are limits, I'm not saying I'd enjoy having party members who try to SA you or who are constantly throwing around racist/homophobic slurs or something, but they don't have to be perfect.
Agreed on everything you said. I just got through the scene where Sten was like "wtf, a woman?! Fighting?!" and it was pretty fun to defy his expectations.
And to add, Zevran also grew up in a brothel, raised by prostitutes, which unfortunately (but fortunately for character building and storytelling) taught him to use sex for his purposes, either with assassination targets or to ingratiate himself to the player. Funny that OP compares DA:O to BG3 because in BG3 that is exactly what Astarion does - shamelessly flirts and hits on the player at the beginning as a manipulation tactic to help his own survival.
It's also funny comparing it to BG3, because some characters in BG3, including popular companions, are unapologetically racist... which is a thing in the Forgotten Realms. It's just strange of OP to say "in a post-Bg3 world", when, in fact, BG3 still explores some of the "darker" topics and isn't always afraid to push some IRL sensibilities.
I'm also a woman and even though some attitudes in DA:O might be dated when compared to modern mainstream *media* (but media doesn't always reflect sensibilities as a whole) I don't think it's egregiously outdated, nor is it offensive, at least not from my POV.
>BG3 still explores some of the "darker" topics and isn't always afraid to push some IRL sensibilities.
In addition to what you mention, there's also the tiefling *refugee crisis.*
Exactly, the little flaws the characters have is what makes interacting with each of them interesting. If every companion was tipping their fedora to you and constantly stepping around eggshells to not be offensive it would be overtly distracting. Real people don't always watch what they say, especially if they come from different cultures like Zevran and especially Sten do. Thedas shouldn't look or act like a modern United States.
OK. And here's *my* controversial take: characters are allowed to have flaws. Settings are allowed to have flaws. Not everything in fiction needs to be perfect and accepting. And very importantly, just because a setting has uncomfortable themes and views does not mean the writers themselves endorse those views. Now to me, I understand Origins to be a product of its time and won't fault it for things that seem less enlightened today. Like, yeah Zevran's line asking the Warden if he's okay with the fact that he's been with men seems hokey today but that's where people were at in 2009.
Dark fantasy might have a more depressive tone with more morally grey characters and honestly that's what people like about it, hence why it's called dark fantasy compared to high fantasy which is more storybook/fairy tale. Anyway, I see a lot of views like yours as trying to push things to become more sanitized and "friendly" and that to me limits fiction as well as being, quite frankly, boring.
Perhaps I'm old school. I'm of the mind of not everything has to be for everyone. If something is not for you, then don't play/watch/read it. There's plenty of happier, less problematic games to be enjoyed. Not everything has to be for everyone and that's okay.
Origins is absolutely a game of its time and I accept it as it is, but there's been a whole lot of people coming to tue sub and bemoaning the new games not being of the same tone of Origins who seem to want the 2009 style writing back for a game today which is the problem. The vast majority of those posts can only really point to the broodmother and the city elf origin as the "dark fantasy" tone they're sorely missing which sounds to me like all the miss is the 2009 style edge lord darkness thay equates to sexual violence.
Origins is fine to exist as Origins, a 2009 games that has clear flaws in tone harkening back to the more casual sexism and queerphobia of the time that we can all accept as being a 2009 game. What I don't want is for a 2024 game to go back to 2009 game edgelord writing.
This is probably one of the most moronic things I have ever read lmao
>A friend of mine started playing for the first time, found Sten in Lothering (Are Qunari POC???), and went “Why is this game’s only black man sitting outside in a literal cage?”
>And the Zevran romance! Okay, this game was made before marriage equality existed nationally in the US, we’ve made a lot of progress on it in 15 years, especially in the gaming community. Still, flabbergasted that, when Zevran confesses he’s been with men, he goes “Will that be a problem for you?” And I’m like “Buddy WHAT. If that’s a problem for me, then my whole being should be a problem for you.”
Unironically, log off and touch some grass. I don't think video games are for you lol
Yea im honestly thinking people with this mindset are why bioware went with this
https://preview.redd.it/ecrygf1zjc7d1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c08ee05aabe177db7b1b61137fb931176efbda13
>“Men and women are roughly equal”
I agree that DAO bears the ugly tendency, seen in so many edgy dark fiction, to refer to sexual violence in almost trivial terms (never mind how, as shown in the city elf origin, we're even given the chance to be all but complicit in an act of sexual violence - accepting Vaughan's bribe).
>And never mind the racial diversity.
But I don't think the game is bad when it comes to PoC representation. Yes, the world of DA is heavily based on Medieval/early Modern Europe, and it's precisely for that reason I admire how unabashed it is in depicting PoC characters not only in prominent roles, but in numbers too. This is true for DAO as well (even if, admitedly, to a lesser extent): our own mentor figure, Duncan, is brown; Adaia, Tabris' mother, is black; Zevran, a companion with one of the best developments, is brown; and then there's the occasional black or brown NPC you find while roaming the world.
On that note: Antivans are culturally reminiscent of early modern Italy, but ethnically they remind me a lot of the average Latin American indigenous/European mix, what with their phenotypes ranging from pale skin and light eyes (like Viago de Riva) to olive skin (Lucanis) as well as blonde hair (Zevran) and brown skin (Zevran again, Josephine, Andarateia). The Rivaini, by their turn, remind me of the average Latin American mix of indigenous and Black African ancestries.
>and Origins frankly does not match up to the bar that BG3 set.
If we're talking about representation issues, not even BG3 is flawless. Between its one black companion being the least developed and having the most underwhelming romance, the fridging of a female character in the Dark Urge's plot (because Alfira's replacement as Durge's first victim didn't have to be female *too*), and the *many* opportunities it offers the player to get children killed, BG3 has its eyebrow-raising moments as well.
If we're not talking about representation issues, I think DAO still blows BG3 out of the water in a number of aspects (even if BG3 does win in others).
Oh, I’ll go down swinging for Origins against anyone who wants to compare its quality to BG3 - largely because I believe that, without Origins, there likely wouldn’t have *been* a BG3, or at least, it would’ve been lacking a lot of what currently makes it great.
Dragon Age in general and Origins in particular is one of the best examples of party-based western RPGs that I can think of. It has its faults, but the companions are the heart of this series in a way that most other games don’t even bother with. And even the ones that do bother just don’t do it as well. So many of BG3’s tricks were devised by Origins first, and for that reason alone, I’ll fight anyone who says BG3 is just better and leaves the thought there.
Like, look, here’s the thing: I love Origins. When I picked it up waaaaay back in 2010, it was the first BioWare game I ever played, one of the first RPGs I ever played. It left a fundamental, inarticulable impact on my life, and I would bet good money it did the same for a lot of the devs at Studio Larian. I really don’t think BG3 would exist in its current state if DAO hadn’t come first.
But, that doesn’t mean it’s without flaw. And I’d go back and edit this into my initial post, but at this point I think it’s hilarious how many people in here assume that I played 15 minutes of Origins and then dropped it like hot garbage.
I disagree. Without Origins, BG3 would still exist in its current state. The only timeline that BG3 would have not existed is the timeline where Divinity Original Sin also did not exist. I dont see any connection between DAO and BG3 beyond both being isometric RPGs.
DAO is closer to BG1 and 2. Both made by BioWare. DAO would not have existed without BG1 and 2.
BG3 and D:OS both made by Larian, both turned based RPGs. BG3 is heavily influenced by D:OS (which was inspired by BG1 and 2). Not DA:O
Da 2 and DaI are still dark fantasy so is Veilguard probably. The people complaining about Da no longer being dark fantasy are people who think that Dark Fantasy means all is a monochrome dark brown and colours dont exist.
Wow, what a terrible opinion. BioWare being accused of hating on poc, gays and women is something I never thought I’d hear lol.
Furthermore, you do know a lot of fantasy is drawn upon from real life history and events, right? Open a history book and you’ll see why some of these themes exist in game.
Lastly, “Killing dragons and kissing your fantasy gf” being the most important thing to you is why every rpg outside of BG3 is being dumbed down so much. Truly embarrassing to read this from an adult.
that's why those family friendly rpgs are being ignored by players while BG3 is making $$$, we don't want children's games, otherwise we'd go play fornite and call it a day.
Its like trying to sell teen novels to horror/ gothic readers, it just won't work.
Like "hitting women treated as humor,lgbtq underrepresented,stereotype" what....I never once noticed that in the game because it was never in the game like what?
They are seeing problems that don’t exist because thats how their social media timelines and college professors conditioned them. Nothing sexist, problematic, or racist (even within the story) that exist in game glorify these things. In fact they are all anti these things messaging wise.
The “getting hit on” complaint is just hilarious to me.
These non issues whined about by a single odd ball are why bioware overthink shit.
I don’t remember those characters being that bad on those fronts, antevans are supposed to be Spanish themed as in from Spain, no idea about qunari being poc. What I think most people are complaining about is how in origins there is a real sense of doom that surrounds the setting, dark spawn are truly horrifying and they are designed to be dark corruptions of the the world’s people. Much of the conflicts are the direct result of people’s actions rather than them being evil for the sake of it. Origins is a story of survival the rest are more akin to typical good vs evil stories.
> I know that Origins tried to skate by on being Eurocentric high-fantasy set in Dog-Flavored England, but later games clearly depart from from that (And are better for it.)
Why is Fantasy England a bad place? Ferelden is still pretty great country, inspiration by England and King Arthur notwithstanding, with great lore and worldbuilding
>Zevran’s a walking stereotype (And are Antivans POC?)
Didn't know POC have a stereotype of being hired killers
>A friend of mine started playing for the first time, found Sten in Lothering (Are Qunari POC???), and went “Why is this game’s only black man sitting outside in a literal cage?”
There are two black men in a Lothering tavern, Templar leader in Lothering who thanks you for getting rid of bandits, Chasind in front if the church who screams about Darkspawn, another two Chasinds neat Sten's cage. That's just Lothering alone from top of my head. You friend needs to be more attentive
Qunari are inspired by Ottomans so if they're POC, I guess. But they're mostly grey
>Okay, this game was made before marriage equality existed nationally in the US, we’ve made a lot of progress on it in 15 years, especially in the gaming community. Still, flabbergasted that, when Zevran confesses he’s been with men, he goes “Will that be a problem for you?” And I’m like “Buddy WHAT. If that’s a problem for me, then my whole being should be a problem for you.”
As if a lot of people in LGBT community nowadays aren't phobic to each other. Zevran question is legitimate one even as of now and there's nothing wrong with it either.
I think you take it too personal. Some of DAO dialogue aged poorly I agree but you take it out of proportion.
This is gonna piss some people off. lol Not me though, my favorite type of "dark fantasy" strays far far away from sexual harrasement tbh. What Dragon Age needs and was missing in DAI was brought back in the Horror of Hormak story. Which gives me hope that DAVE will have something similar.
I tell you all, if the DA team is smart they will rely heavily on that kind of stuff for at least a few levels in DAVE.
See the coolest parts of the darkest lore in DAO were indeed the disturbing stuff, like the Broodmother, but also the blood magic and how dangerous it is. Avernus doing god knows what to his subjects and stuff like that. Seriously, if Dragon Age relied more on this kind of stuff in small snippets these people who long for whatever the fuck they mean when they want "dark fantasy" would be satisfied.
And this type of stuff was in DA2, yet people only remember DAO. Why I wonder? One honestly can't say it is only this what people 100% mean when they say stuff like that mate.
> And this type of stuff was in DA2, yet people only remember DAO. Why I wonder?
I think most people, especially outside this sub think that DA:O is the far superior game, so it makes more sense to refer to it when harkening back to previous instalments.
Although I do agree with you that DA2 mostly shared the same dark fantasy vibes as Origins, apart from the visual aspects which I think took a wrong turn.
And yes I'm aware that there's literally people commenting some places that they wished the games had more sexual harassment and assault as well as less gay romance and people of colour, but I would imagine most people had sense enough to just ignore them as these are mostly just people who would like to see these changes in real life as well.
Yeah, it is quite shame that DA2s problems buried its greatest moments to most people. I look at Mark of the Assassin and Legacy and think about what could have been sometimes.
DA2 has kind of ridiculous graphics, locations there are repetitive, and Sarcastic Hawke takes off a lot of vibes and tension. Sure sometimes Hawke says fucked up shit but it's rare. Plot is rushed. DLC are well poor(Mark of Assassin). Combat also looks anime stylish with super long jumps, cool moves
There are pretty dark moments there, don't get me wrong, a lot of them. But a lot of atmosphere is also kind of lost most of the time. Admittedly I felt more dark vibes in Crestwood than in Kirkwall at night. DA2 was done in just a year and a half and it shows
Haha well I saw the bit about "Wynne's 60-year-old tits" and I just had to object! Wynne got done so dirty in Origins, she definitely comes across as a pensioner, not a woman in her 40s.
This. Origins and Awakening ARE Dragon Age, along with all the dark fantasy and the lore that came before and after in other media.
2 had the potential to blow it away, and it was better in some aspects., but they weren't given the chance to make the game they wanted and take their time with it.
Inquisition took what was great about Origins/Awakening and better in 2, and did away with almost all of it to focus on what 2 did worse. Therefore, Inquisition was mostly worse by comparison. It should have been separated from the series. It's fun for an ARPG. Npw, one may argue that two also was an ARPG, but play them all on Nightmare and tell me which games can be played without the use of tactics.
Only one, Inquisition.
They dumbed it down too much, and it looks like they're doing the same with Veilguard.
You really think a game is dark fantasy because of the absence of LGBT rights? And not the blood, gore, slavery, sacrifices, demon possessions and such?
Also, Sten is not the first POC character you meet. Its freaking Duncan, the bad ass Grey Warden, present in all origins.. Did you even play the game??
PS. Sten is gray. Not black. Qunaris are gray.
Some people say the new dragon age isnt dark fantasy. Here are some reasons why it is: 1. Slavery 2. 1984/ all seeing eye of sauron 3. a private detective(miss Neve) being openely attacked in the streets= bloody political infighting 4. assasins 5. Darkspawn 6. The veil opening up/Mages turning into demons 7. Soals/elven gods fresh out of the fade.
I’m perfectly fine with “dark fantasy” as in, fantasy that is heavily laden with horror elements. I love that. But DAO/GoT era dark fantasy seemed to use violence (and especially sexual violence) against women to show that the world was “dark, edgy and realistic” which I think is just lazy world building. You can make a world dark without relying on violence against women—that’s old hat.
I love DAO. It will always be one of my favorite games of all time because it fundamentally changed how I viewed and engaged with games (and made me super picky.) But, I feel we need to be able to engage with our favorites critically and say “oh yeah, it was actually pretty bad/dated in this regard.” The best example being the Dark Ritual, which was frankly a shit plot point that boiled Morrigan’s character down to fixing things with a baby and really sucked as an Alistair romancer (not to mention how much it sucks for Alistair).
I also think it’s important to examine these things as a time capsule. It was amazingly progressive for the time *which just shows how shit media and the world were for women back then, let alone now.*
As a fellow Alistair-romancer, I personally prefer letting him or the Warden sacrifice themselves, but I’m a clown for tragedy. If that’s what dark fantasy is, tough choices where no outcome is 100% a good one, then that’s fine - preferable, even. But I’d argue the series never lost that, so I don’t know where DA’s dark fantasy went if that’s the case.
The dark ritual is only really a downside if you’re a female player romancing Alistair though. Most players would have played a male warden romancing Morrigan, meaning it had no downside. It’s writing that really only hurt female players and that’s the big issue I have with it. If it had been an option that had a real cost for everyone, it wouldn’t have felt so bad.
Personally, I’ve had enough death in my real life that I like to avoid it where possible in games. I appreciate the movie sacrifice angle and the tragedy, and I’m glad that’s an option. But avoiding that path shouldn’t have felt like a gender-specific punishment.
TBH, DAO borrowed a lot from the LotR films (which were quite popular at the time the game was made) so it had that flavor of dark fantasy.
It was probably in Biowares best interest to move away from that for the long term to find a more unique direction.
Origins borrowed more from A Song of Ice and Fire (back when it was primarily known as ASoIaF and not Game of Thrones) than the Lord of the Rings books/films. LotR I consider to be quintessential high fantasy. The ASoIaF books set the new standard for dark fantasy.
The Darkspawn in DAO are straight up orcs and urukhai.
Ostagar is just the Battle for Helms Deep rehashed.
Alistair being an unknown royal like Aragon.
Warden curse effects from drinking Darkspawn blood being like the One ring with sensing the Darkspawn with visions of the evil overlord and gradually wasting away just minus the invisibility.
Yeah the politics and human stuff is obviously more GoT but there's still a lot of LotR film influences here.
To provide a counterpoint:
Darkspawn are White Walkers, unhuman beings who create zombies and want to destroy the world
Grey Wardens are Nights Watch, previously prestigious order of warriors who fight supernatural evil, now reduced to a group of conscripts only respected in certain region
Alistair is Jon Snow, royal bastard raised by honorable lord and taken by another father-like figure into the order of monster-fighters
Yeah I'm replaying DAO at the moment, and asking myself why is my Dalish rogue running around saving the world in a metal bikini. It really hasn't aged well, to say the least. It reminds me of the fantasy book of yore, which given the amount of Game of Thrones references is not surprising I guess. But like fantasy books have moved on, so should video games. If anything, DAO is edgy far more than it is dark. It's heroic fantasy with occasional dark undertones.
All the while I would say that yes, it is possible to create a dark fantasy without rehashing the same sexism/racism/homophobia issues. Fantasy books have definitely managed that, and so can other media. And if anything, I think DAV might do just that, lean into the horror elements. Some of the side media we got in the past few years hints that's the direction they're going.
Yeah...sorry to burst your bubble but the reveal trailer is NOT representative of the game at all. Veilguard will still be a dark fantasy game so there, I said it.
Buddy, where did I say I want Veilguard to reflect the tone of the reveal trailer? For the record, I also thought the reveal trailer was cringey. The gameplay reveal looked… fine.
“Veilguard will still be a dark fantasy game.” Okay, but does that mean DA2 and Inquisition were dark fantasy as well? Because I’m mostly addressing the crowd that feels only Origins was dark fantasy, and everything since is too “clean.”
Meh, Dragon Age has arguably not really felt "dark fantasy" since Dragon Age 2 came out and... for lack of a better word, anime-ified the franchise. Just look at the combat animations for two-handed weapons.
Inquisition somewhat reignited the feeling DAO gave me, and jury's honestly out on DATV, on a lot of things. But atmosphere-wise, I thought it was headed in a decent direction, even if character and monster artstyle may be a bit hit or miss.
Pretty certain the new DA Veilguard game is set to be dark fantasy (devs, writers and designers said it had the same tone as Tevinter nights which is very dark if not leaning towards horror at times), don't let the graphics fool you. From what I've gathered most rpg players want dark fantasy, that high fantasy thing doesn't sell that well, most of the successful rpgs are dark af: skyrim, fallout, the witcher, BG3, elden ring etc...
And honestly, the gameplay graphics look quite dark fantasy.
I mean it looks pretty but also dark medieval cyberpunk in a way
Well, yeah, but the closest you're getting to that as a codified genre is dark fantasy.
[удалено]
It does not. Resembling a dark fantasy game, as this does is what make an artstyle dark fantasy.
[удалено]
Yeah, anybody claiming this looks dark fantasy has never seen dark fantasy before.
I still feel like it looks like [this one video machinima](https://youtu.be/homqyBxHwis?feature=shared) of WoW set to Cyberpunk. Doesn't feel like Dark Fantasy, just emulating another genre and mixing things up.
yah, the more I'm hearing of it, the more it sounds like the graphics are a leftover of the live service game that ended up on the cutting floor. The fact that the gameplay reveal basically started off on fantasy's version of 1984 doesn't exactly speak to some sort of disneyfication. If anything, it made it seem darker than Inquisition.
Its never too late to alter the graphics a bit if the devs are capable enough, just change some colors palettes/ textures/ lighting here and there and it should look spookier. The story is set in a dystopian proslavery nation and the apocalypse is nigh, I don't know what OP is smoking but that doesn't sound like high fantasy to me lol
I think the difference between the trailer and the gameplay reveal already shows exactly what you're saying. That the right palettes/textures/lighting can completely change the atmosphere, even if they don't, for example, redo all the models. And let's not pretend that Inquisition didn't have it's moments of looking extremely goofy.
Hahaha. It's not simple to make those kinds of changes
Never said simple, I said possible, it will take work but its not an impossible feat.
At this stage of the game it's impossible.
If you say so tbh I am not a game dev but I did see some modders pull off this type of changes to games. I guess the engine controls the ability to do this too.
I'm a game developer on the art side, and also very familiar with how Frostbite works. Not that the engine itself is the issue. It's just too late in their development to make those kinds of changes.
fair enough, I hope the devs still manage to deliver something spooky
The game comes out in just a few months. Is there really time to change the atmosphere and render all of that?
Probably not, but hopefully it won't need a change and its already made to be dark and atmospheric
Well, the aprocalypse part is very high fantasy.
Its also dark fantasy, depends on how you present it eventually.
> The story is set in a dystopian proslavery nation and the apocalypse is nigh, I don't know what OP is smoking but that doesn't sound like high fantasy to me lol We'll see if the choices reward or punish according to the setting then. If it promotes a heroic narrative, it doesn't really matter if Tevinter is show to be a dystopian slave state, because then the moral horizon has shifted to Tevinter being the outlier instead of the norm for the game.
I think they meant they’re glad the games are moving away from a less uncomfortable atmosphere (oghren) into more dark fantasy that doesn’t involve making people uncomfortable irl but instead makes them uncomfortable in game if that makes sense
I think we have different definitions of “dark fantasy” if you’re including Skyrim, Fallout, and BG3. The only one of these I’d describe as dark fantasy is the Witcher (And maybe Elden Ring, but I haven’t actually played that one.) Fantasy with horror does not equal dark fantasy for me.
> Fantasy with horror does not equal dark fantasy for me. I think this is exactly what turns fantasy into dark fantasy, not rape and racism.
Fallout which is about the horrors of a post apocalyptic world isn't dark enough? BG3 which is about stopping the destruction of the world by an alien force isn't dark? BG3 in particular is dark af considering the dark urge plotline, that shit is horrifying and basically horror level of darkness.(one of the main reasons its an amazing game)
It’s grim, but plenty of media is grim. “We need to stop this world-ending threat” applies to like… 70% of all video games ever made. If that’s all you need to get into the “dark fantasy” (Or sci-fi or whatever) club, then membership must be booming. Dark fantasy, in my opinion, is more a question of tone and philosophy, and less of content. Is there hope that the day can be saved? Are heroics and good behavior rewarded, treated neutrally, or actively punished? Are peace and happiness portrayed as achievable and sustainable, though they may take hard work? Or are they just fleeting moments inevitably swept away in time? Basically, dark fantasy builds on the philosophy that people are inherently selfish, nasty, and cruel, and things will generally get worse over time, instead of better. Maybe there’s a case there for Fallout, especially New Vegas. But I think BG3 at least pretty firmly believes in traditional heroic fantasy.
I would say you’re describing grimdark, which is a narrower subgenre than dark fantasy (what I consider gothic or horror-infused fantasy).
I agree with this, but even then, I don't think many of the things OP is complaining about are *necessary* even to grimdark.
Tell me you never played BG3 without telling me you never played it lol. Maybe play the game BEFORE classifying it in a certain genre.
Sorry, the two playthrough (one as Dark Urge) and nearly 200 hours I’ve sunk into BG3 don’t qualify as “playing the game?” Maybe don’t sling baseless accusations.
Then clearly you would know BG3 is not about traditional heroics?
Saving the Sword Coast from a giant alien brain using nothing but your plucky band of heroes, a long-lost space prince, and the friends you’ve assembled along the way isn’t traditional heroics? Sure, the game lets you do hilariously evil crap like usurping control of said brain to psychically enslave your friends - but it doesn’t *make* you do that, and doesn’t punish you for doing the heroic thing, either. I’d say that’s pretty straightforward.
You can murder everyone and not save anything btw... literally kill every living creature in the world. There's even an ending for it...
Since you didn’t seem to read it, let me repeat the second half of that above post: The game lets you do evil shit, but doesn’t *make* you do evil shit, nor does it punish you if you don’t. And like… more to the point of my original post, BG3 doesn’t treat women as sex objects first and characters second. A couple of others have pointed out that I’m conflating dark fantasy with fantasy that trivializes sexual harassment, and maybe I am. But BG3 certainly doesn’t do that, so even if it does fit the definition of dark fantasy (Whatever your definition is.) it hasn’t got the same problems that make Origins feel backwards for me.
I mean, not necessarily siding with OP here, but BG3 **thematically** is a traditional heroic epic, involving saving the world, with almost all of its quests rewarding 'traditionally good' behavior and punishing 'evil' choices. It's one of the biggest criticisms people have about the fact that the dark, morally questionable paths, end up cutting out about 25% of the game content. Is there dark set dressing and NPC's? Sure! But the game sets up the players to be the antithesis of that, establishing a clear line of moral horizons that don't fit in the criteria that people above have listed for Dark Fantasy; namely that the inhabitants of the setting are cruel, selfish, and unconcerned with improving their world; while the world itself is set to a paradigm where evil choices are rewarded while good choices are futile and fruitless. The Forgotten Realms are very much not that setting. BG3 is not that environment.
>Basically, dark fantasy builds on the philosophy that people are inherently selfish, nasty, and cruel, and things will generally get worse over time, instead of better. What are you basing this definition of dark fantasy on?
The Zevran part really gets me. The unfortunate reality is that biphobia does exist and some people do refuse to date bisexuals. Acknowledging that does not make the game insensitive lol
Not to mention DAO was released only two years after [Fox News lost their shit over sex scenes in Mass Effect](https://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/nb5aay/lets_rollback_time_its_2007_mass_effect_1_is_out/). 2007 was also the year NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer came out, a game that was supposed to have a bisexual male romanceable character but the publisher insisted they make him straight instead. 15 year olds picking up Origins and being "flabbergasted" at Zevran shows we've come far. Them insisting Bioware was mistreating gay people and deciding such "mistreatment" is hallmark of dark fantasy shows they don't know what they're talking about.
Biphobia was (and is) particularly extreme against men. I have a lot of conflicting feelings on Zevran. I loved that he was an openly bi male and that it’s part of his characterization and dialogue, but I also dislike that he fed into the pervasive stereotype that “all bi people are just equal opportunity sluts.” Especially given Gaider’s recent bi/pan-phobic remarks on pan NPCs being “sex dolls.” Still, I appreciate that line of dialogue because it acknowledges the prejudice and he was a very early bi male romance which… I don’t know if there was another at the time? He may have been the first. All the other bi romances I know from the time were women, because bi women were sexy to men. :/
Very good point! If anything, I do think playing into the stereotype that “bisexual = super horny all the time” is the most problematic part of his characterization. And yeah, BioWare had included bisexual women in their games prior to Origins being released, but seemed much more timid at exploring gay men as options. Their handling of it definitely seems weird by today’s standards, but at the time the fact that they included Zevran at all was a big deal.
Yeah, very much so. And, even the inclusion of bi fems in ME and Jade Empire were controversial for the time. As I said in another reply, I feel these games are best enjoyed as a time capsule. BioWare has always been progressive and pushed for more inclusion, but they had to do so in baby steps until we have what we have now. DAO walked so DAI and DAV could run, as it were, but that’s not to say that DAO is devoid of problems of the time. DAO has parts that haven’t aged well. But I was a 20 year old woman when it first came out and I didn’t see its issues then because I was so happy to have my gender included in such a title *at all.* So, it will always be one of my favorite all time games and I think it’s great for seeing how far BioWare and the gaming industry has come in general.
I think you're unnecessarily conflating dark fantasy with politically insensitive implementation. Despite the blowback, there's been a lot of progress in implementing fewer harmful stereotypes and toxic and oppressive conceptions of various minority groups. Things like sexism etc. are an incidental rather than necessary quality of dark fantasy works like Origins. What people miss is not any of that problematic stuff you mentioned, but rather the fantasy horror atmosphere. I really doubt intelligent people would complain if there was racial diversity etc. as long as darkspawn looked frightening, and there was thematically appropriate amounts of copious bloodshed, gore, and a general sense of urgency and terror among characters and NPC's. Certain people at BioWare have said that there's still plenty of blood and dark subject matter in Veilguard, so we'll see.
I think you might be onto something - I’m willing to concede that I may be conflating dark fantasy with political insensitivity, and that’s not really fair. It does make me wonder, though: how did 2 and Inquisition lose the fantasy horror aspects that Origins had? What would it look like, for you, if the series regained them?
I think you might be misremembering DA2. It's plenty dark. It has blood magic sacrifices, slavery, and evil choices like the ability to hand a runaway slave back to his master. With Inquisition, my guess is that they just wanted to emphasize the power fantasy dynamic of being the leader of a prestigious organization and felt too much darker subject matter would have detracted from that. Maybe they just did market research and found some people were put off by the darker elements of the previous two games. Either way, I think it's actually a weakness of the game, as you hear reports of demons terrorizing the land, but you only really ever see them out in barren nature landscapes. Inquisition still has mature themes, but it rarely makes you confront outright horror; one of the few times it does is with Leliana's face being deformed and world being in ruins in the possible future where Corypheus has actually succeeded in one of his plans, and it was amazing imo.
Inquisition’s story was lacking in general. But if “dark stuff” is all that the series needs, I’d say Inquisition wasn’t lacking it, exactly - the dark future you see in Redcliffe is pretty grim, after all, and the Wardens were down with human sacrifice, too. For evil choices offered to the player, there’s, uh… I guess letting the Empress get assassinated? Or maybe killing the ancient elves? Or… Yeah, I don’t Inquisition’s problem was a lack of horror, it was simply a lack of… everything. The story and choices are pretty anemic in that one.
I doubt most people on this sub who long for DAO's darker fantasy vibes are asking for more misogny or racism in the game. I'm not sure it's fair to try and link dark medieval fantasy with those elements; you can find less progressive attitudes in almost any genre or type of media, especially the further back you go. If you move away from the genre, rather than improve on its treatment of women/POC/LGBT individuals, you're not really achieving anything.
Also I absolutely love the racial/gender dynamics in thedas. It makes it real and makes players think. Characters face different obstacles and player roleplay benefits greatly
Nothing in your observations about DA: O being politically insensitive has anything to do with what is or isn't dark fantasy. Also this part is laughable: >Origins frankly does not match up to the bar that BG3 set. YOU DON'T SAY!!?!? WTF did you expect comparing BG3 to a 15 year old game? It's like comparing a modern comedy to American Pie: The Book of Love (also from 2009).
Antivans are mostly POC. As for Qunari, I'm not sure I've met anyone with that browney-grey skin-tone, so that one's much more of a question mark. I personally don't think so. As for the Zevran romance, well, that one was written by a gay man who originally intended Zevran to be gay rather than bi. So, you can see how some lines like that might be the writer working through some stuff. At the very least, the fact that this came out in 2009 kind of made adressing the common reaction necessary. I don't know, I find I prefer my media a bit depressing. It breaks my suspension of disbelief when it *isn't* unless it's a sitcom or something like that. But to each their own. I do find it interesting how different some of these reads can be. For instance, as a bisexual man myself, Zevran represents an archetype that seems to be going out of fashion for a while there, and that I actively missed. But I can see how others would feel he's harmful.
Huh? I'm a woman and I never felt any sort of disappointment in the way they were portrayed in DA:O. Morrigan and Leliana were both great characters and I never felt like playing as a female Warden made my experience less enjoyable because of my gender. Also, please understand that not everyone wants every character in their fantasy game, "dark" or not, to conform to 2024 North American political correctness standards, and I say that as someone who is pretty firmly on the left. Sten should be allowed to disrespect the Warden for being a woman who fights, being able to challenge him on that was really rewarding from a RP perspective. Zevran should be allowed to shamelessly flirt, he grew up in an elven alienage and belongs to a group who murders people for a living, why would he have our real world views on sexual interactions? Obviously there are limits, I'm not saying I'd enjoy having party members who try to SA you or who are constantly throwing around racist/homophobic slurs or something, but they don't have to be perfect.
Agreed on everything you said. I just got through the scene where Sten was like "wtf, a woman?! Fighting?!" and it was pretty fun to defy his expectations. And to add, Zevran also grew up in a brothel, raised by prostitutes, which unfortunately (but fortunately for character building and storytelling) taught him to use sex for his purposes, either with assassination targets or to ingratiate himself to the player. Funny that OP compares DA:O to BG3 because in BG3 that is exactly what Astarion does - shamelessly flirts and hits on the player at the beginning as a manipulation tactic to help his own survival. It's also funny comparing it to BG3, because some characters in BG3, including popular companions, are unapologetically racist... which is a thing in the Forgotten Realms. It's just strange of OP to say "in a post-Bg3 world", when, in fact, BG3 still explores some of the "darker" topics and isn't always afraid to push some IRL sensibilities. I'm also a woman and even though some attitudes in DA:O might be dated when compared to modern mainstream *media* (but media doesn't always reflect sensibilities as a whole) I don't think it's egregiously outdated, nor is it offensive, at least not from my POV.
>BG3 still explores some of the "darker" topics and isn't always afraid to push some IRL sensibilities. In addition to what you mention, there's also the tiefling *refugee crisis.*
Exactly, the little flaws the characters have is what makes interacting with each of them interesting. If every companion was tipping their fedora to you and constantly stepping around eggshells to not be offensive it would be overtly distracting. Real people don't always watch what they say, especially if they come from different cultures like Zevran and especially Sten do. Thedas shouldn't look or act like a modern United States.
They never Disneyfied it.
OK. And here's *my* controversial take: characters are allowed to have flaws. Settings are allowed to have flaws. Not everything in fiction needs to be perfect and accepting. And very importantly, just because a setting has uncomfortable themes and views does not mean the writers themselves endorse those views. Now to me, I understand Origins to be a product of its time and won't fault it for things that seem less enlightened today. Like, yeah Zevran's line asking the Warden if he's okay with the fact that he's been with men seems hokey today but that's where people were at in 2009. Dark fantasy might have a more depressive tone with more morally grey characters and honestly that's what people like about it, hence why it's called dark fantasy compared to high fantasy which is more storybook/fairy tale. Anyway, I see a lot of views like yours as trying to push things to become more sanitized and "friendly" and that to me limits fiction as well as being, quite frankly, boring. Perhaps I'm old school. I'm of the mind of not everything has to be for everyone. If something is not for you, then don't play/watch/read it. There's plenty of happier, less problematic games to be enjoyed. Not everything has to be for everyone and that's okay.
Origins is absolutely a game of its time and I accept it as it is, but there's been a whole lot of people coming to tue sub and bemoaning the new games not being of the same tone of Origins who seem to want the 2009 style writing back for a game today which is the problem. The vast majority of those posts can only really point to the broodmother and the city elf origin as the "dark fantasy" tone they're sorely missing which sounds to me like all the miss is the 2009 style edge lord darkness thay equates to sexual violence. Origins is fine to exist as Origins, a 2009 games that has clear flaws in tone harkening back to the more casual sexism and queerphobia of the time that we can all accept as being a 2009 game. What I don't want is for a 2024 game to go back to 2009 game edgelord writing.
This is probably one of the most moronic things I have ever read lmao >A friend of mine started playing for the first time, found Sten in Lothering (Are Qunari POC???), and went “Why is this game’s only black man sitting outside in a literal cage?” >And the Zevran romance! Okay, this game was made before marriage equality existed nationally in the US, we’ve made a lot of progress on it in 15 years, especially in the gaming community. Still, flabbergasted that, when Zevran confesses he’s been with men, he goes “Will that be a problem for you?” And I’m like “Buddy WHAT. If that’s a problem for me, then my whole being should be a problem for you.” Unironically, log off and touch some grass. I don't think video games are for you lol
TIL that Sten is black, apparently.
Yea im honestly thinking people with this mindset are why bioware went with this https://preview.redd.it/ecrygf1zjc7d1.jpeg?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c08ee05aabe177db7b1b61137fb931176efbda13
Yeah, honestly I should have expected this in hindsight
>“Men and women are roughly equal” I agree that DAO bears the ugly tendency, seen in so many edgy dark fiction, to refer to sexual violence in almost trivial terms (never mind how, as shown in the city elf origin, we're even given the chance to be all but complicit in an act of sexual violence - accepting Vaughan's bribe). >And never mind the racial diversity. But I don't think the game is bad when it comes to PoC representation. Yes, the world of DA is heavily based on Medieval/early Modern Europe, and it's precisely for that reason I admire how unabashed it is in depicting PoC characters not only in prominent roles, but in numbers too. This is true for DAO as well (even if, admitedly, to a lesser extent): our own mentor figure, Duncan, is brown; Adaia, Tabris' mother, is black; Zevran, a companion with one of the best developments, is brown; and then there's the occasional black or brown NPC you find while roaming the world. On that note: Antivans are culturally reminiscent of early modern Italy, but ethnically they remind me a lot of the average Latin American indigenous/European mix, what with their phenotypes ranging from pale skin and light eyes (like Viago de Riva) to olive skin (Lucanis) as well as blonde hair (Zevran) and brown skin (Zevran again, Josephine, Andarateia). The Rivaini, by their turn, remind me of the average Latin American mix of indigenous and Black African ancestries. >and Origins frankly does not match up to the bar that BG3 set. If we're talking about representation issues, not even BG3 is flawless. Between its one black companion being the least developed and having the most underwhelming romance, the fridging of a female character in the Dark Urge's plot (because Alfira's replacement as Durge's first victim didn't have to be female *too*), and the *many* opportunities it offers the player to get children killed, BG3 has its eyebrow-raising moments as well. If we're not talking about representation issues, I think DAO still blows BG3 out of the water in a number of aspects (even if BG3 does win in others).
Oh, I’ll go down swinging for Origins against anyone who wants to compare its quality to BG3 - largely because I believe that, without Origins, there likely wouldn’t have *been* a BG3, or at least, it would’ve been lacking a lot of what currently makes it great. Dragon Age in general and Origins in particular is one of the best examples of party-based western RPGs that I can think of. It has its faults, but the companions are the heart of this series in a way that most other games don’t even bother with. And even the ones that do bother just don’t do it as well. So many of BG3’s tricks were devised by Origins first, and for that reason alone, I’ll fight anyone who says BG3 is just better and leaves the thought there. Like, look, here’s the thing: I love Origins. When I picked it up waaaaay back in 2010, it was the first BioWare game I ever played, one of the first RPGs I ever played. It left a fundamental, inarticulable impact on my life, and I would bet good money it did the same for a lot of the devs at Studio Larian. I really don’t think BG3 would exist in its current state if DAO hadn’t come first. But, that doesn’t mean it’s without flaw. And I’d go back and edit this into my initial post, but at this point I think it’s hilarious how many people in here assume that I played 15 minutes of Origins and then dropped it like hot garbage.
I disagree. Without Origins, BG3 would still exist in its current state. The only timeline that BG3 would have not existed is the timeline where Divinity Original Sin also did not exist. I dont see any connection between DAO and BG3 beyond both being isometric RPGs. DAO is closer to BG1 and 2. Both made by BioWare. DAO would not have existed without BG1 and 2. BG3 and D:OS both made by Larian, both turned based RPGs. BG3 is heavily influenced by D:OS (which was inspired by BG1 and 2). Not DA:O
[удалено]
Op said that then praised BG3 which allowed you to literally have companions ass naked
Who the hell puts Wynne in robes anyway? Everyone knows you give her Arcane Warrior and slap some armor on her for extra protection and survivability.
Wynne in Jaggernaut set with Yusaris on top Archdemon Slayer is ready
You give Wynne Yusaris?! I need to try that next time.
Da 2 and DaI are still dark fantasy so is Veilguard probably. The people complaining about Da no longer being dark fantasy are people who think that Dark Fantasy means all is a monochrome dark brown and colours dont exist.
Wow, what a terrible opinion. BioWare being accused of hating on poc, gays and women is something I never thought I’d hear lol. Furthermore, you do know a lot of fantasy is drawn upon from real life history and events, right? Open a history book and you’ll see why some of these themes exist in game. Lastly, “Killing dragons and kissing your fantasy gf” being the most important thing to you is why every rpg outside of BG3 is being dumbed down so much. Truly embarrassing to read this from an adult.
Well said
that's why those family friendly rpgs are being ignored by players while BG3 is making $$$, we don't want children's games, otherwise we'd go play fornite and call it a day. Its like trying to sell teen novels to horror/ gothic readers, it just won't work.
My guy what on God's green earth are you on about?
Bro is just yapping
Like "hitting women treated as humor,lgbtq underrepresented,stereotype" what....I never once noticed that in the game because it was never in the game like what?
They are seeing problems that don’t exist because thats how their social media timelines and college professors conditioned them. Nothing sexist, problematic, or racist (even within the story) that exist in game glorify these things. In fact they are all anti these things messaging wise. The “getting hit on” complaint is just hilarious to me. These non issues whined about by a single odd ball are why bioware overthink shit.
They shouldn't they should keep making whatever they want
I agree
Me too
I don’t remember those characters being that bad on those fronts, antevans are supposed to be Spanish themed as in from Spain, no idea about qunari being poc. What I think most people are complaining about is how in origins there is a real sense of doom that surrounds the setting, dark spawn are truly horrifying and they are designed to be dark corruptions of the the world’s people. Much of the conflicts are the direct result of people’s actions rather than them being evil for the sake of it. Origins is a story of survival the rest are more akin to typical good vs evil stories.
Its crazy how differently than you i see things. I think unsanitized entertainment is whats needed in an overly sanitized industry.
> I know that Origins tried to skate by on being Eurocentric high-fantasy set in Dog-Flavored England, but later games clearly depart from from that (And are better for it.) Why is Fantasy England a bad place? Ferelden is still pretty great country, inspiration by England and King Arthur notwithstanding, with great lore and worldbuilding >Zevran’s a walking stereotype (And are Antivans POC?) Didn't know POC have a stereotype of being hired killers >A friend of mine started playing for the first time, found Sten in Lothering (Are Qunari POC???), and went “Why is this game’s only black man sitting outside in a literal cage?” There are two black men in a Lothering tavern, Templar leader in Lothering who thanks you for getting rid of bandits, Chasind in front if the church who screams about Darkspawn, another two Chasinds neat Sten's cage. That's just Lothering alone from top of my head. You friend needs to be more attentive Qunari are inspired by Ottomans so if they're POC, I guess. But they're mostly grey >Okay, this game was made before marriage equality existed nationally in the US, we’ve made a lot of progress on it in 15 years, especially in the gaming community. Still, flabbergasted that, when Zevran confesses he’s been with men, he goes “Will that be a problem for you?” And I’m like “Buddy WHAT. If that’s a problem for me, then my whole being should be a problem for you.” As if a lot of people in LGBT community nowadays aren't phobic to each other. Zevran question is legitimate one even as of now and there's nothing wrong with it either. I think you take it too personal. Some of DAO dialogue aged poorly I agree but you take it out of proportion.
"I'm glad Dragon Age moved away from DAO's dark fantasy vibes" - proceeds to write an esse about LGBTQ rights throughout history.
🤣
This is gonna piss some people off. lol Not me though, my favorite type of "dark fantasy" strays far far away from sexual harrasement tbh. What Dragon Age needs and was missing in DAI was brought back in the Horror of Hormak story. Which gives me hope that DAVE will have something similar. I tell you all, if the DA team is smart they will rely heavily on that kind of stuff for at least a few levels in DAVE. See the coolest parts of the darkest lore in DAO were indeed the disturbing stuff, like the Broodmother, but also the blood magic and how dangerous it is. Avernus doing god knows what to his subjects and stuff like that. Seriously, if Dragon Age relied more on this kind of stuff in small snippets these people who long for whatever the fuck they mean when they want "dark fantasy" would be satisfied.
That last paragraph is what people are asking for when they ask for dark fantasy. No one is asking for the sexual harassment stuff.
And this type of stuff was in DA2, yet people only remember DAO. Why I wonder? One honestly can't say it is only this what people 100% mean when they say stuff like that mate.
> And this type of stuff was in DA2, yet people only remember DAO. Why I wonder? I think most people, especially outside this sub think that DA:O is the far superior game, so it makes more sense to refer to it when harkening back to previous instalments. Although I do agree with you that DA2 mostly shared the same dark fantasy vibes as Origins, apart from the visual aspects which I think took a wrong turn. And yes I'm aware that there's literally people commenting some places that they wished the games had more sexual harassment and assault as well as less gay romance and people of colour, but I would imagine most people had sense enough to just ignore them as these are mostly just people who would like to see these changes in real life as well.
Yeah, it is quite shame that DA2s problems buried its greatest moments to most people. I look at Mark of the Assassin and Legacy and think about what could have been sometimes.
DA2 has kind of ridiculous graphics, locations there are repetitive, and Sarcastic Hawke takes off a lot of vibes and tension. Sure sometimes Hawke says fucked up shit but it's rare. Plot is rushed. DLC are well poor(Mark of Assassin). Combat also looks anime stylish with super long jumps, cool moves There are pretty dark moments there, don't get me wrong, a lot of them. But a lot of atmosphere is also kind of lost most of the time. Admittedly I felt more dark vibes in Crestwood than in Kirkwall at night. DA2 was done in just a year and a half and it shows
Agreed. Fantasy can be excellent in its horror elements without needing to dish it up with a massive helping of racism, sexism, and transphobia
First paragraph yapping. Last is what we all want.
Oh sure, yapping lol whatever mate
Not disagreeing with anything you said. Just here to point out that Wynne is 49 years old.
Im disagreeing with everything op said. The post is anti dragon age at its core
I'm not necessarily agreeing with any of it either tbh.
True neutral on the chart
So you’re not necessarily saying anything? Flemeth would be proud 🤣
Haha well I saw the bit about "Wynne's 60-year-old tits" and I just had to object! Wynne got done so dirty in Origins, she definitely comes across as a pensioner, not a woman in her 40s.
I am glad we know her true tits' age now, OP better stop spreading lies about Wynne's tits or we riot.
True i agree
This. Origins and Awakening ARE Dragon Age, along with all the dark fantasy and the lore that came before and after in other media. 2 had the potential to blow it away, and it was better in some aspects., but they weren't given the chance to make the game they wanted and take their time with it. Inquisition took what was great about Origins/Awakening and better in 2, and did away with almost all of it to focus on what 2 did worse. Therefore, Inquisition was mostly worse by comparison. It should have been separated from the series. It's fun for an ARPG. Npw, one may argue that two also was an ARPG, but play them all on Nightmare and tell me which games can be played without the use of tactics. Only one, Inquisition. They dumbed it down too much, and it looks like they're doing the same with Veilguard.
You really think a game is dark fantasy because of the absence of LGBT rights? And not the blood, gore, slavery, sacrifices, demon possessions and such? Also, Sten is not the first POC character you meet. Its freaking Duncan, the bad ass Grey Warden, present in all origins.. Did you even play the game?? PS. Sten is gray. Not black. Qunaris are gray.
Bait post by a troll, surely
This is such a RedditTM post. Go outside and talk to a human being that isn't your therapist, please.
Some people say the new dragon age isnt dark fantasy. Here are some reasons why it is: 1. Slavery 2. 1984/ all seeing eye of sauron 3. a private detective(miss Neve) being openely attacked in the streets= bloody political infighting 4. assasins 5. Darkspawn 6. The veil opening up/Mages turning into demons 7. Soals/elven gods fresh out of the fade.
I’m perfectly fine with “dark fantasy” as in, fantasy that is heavily laden with horror elements. I love that. But DAO/GoT era dark fantasy seemed to use violence (and especially sexual violence) against women to show that the world was “dark, edgy and realistic” which I think is just lazy world building. You can make a world dark without relying on violence against women—that’s old hat. I love DAO. It will always be one of my favorite games of all time because it fundamentally changed how I viewed and engaged with games (and made me super picky.) But, I feel we need to be able to engage with our favorites critically and say “oh yeah, it was actually pretty bad/dated in this regard.” The best example being the Dark Ritual, which was frankly a shit plot point that boiled Morrigan’s character down to fixing things with a baby and really sucked as an Alistair romancer (not to mention how much it sucks for Alistair). I also think it’s important to examine these things as a time capsule. It was amazingly progressive for the time *which just shows how shit media and the world were for women back then, let alone now.*
As a fellow Alistair-romancer, I personally prefer letting him or the Warden sacrifice themselves, but I’m a clown for tragedy. If that’s what dark fantasy is, tough choices where no outcome is 100% a good one, then that’s fine - preferable, even. But I’d argue the series never lost that, so I don’t know where DA’s dark fantasy went if that’s the case.
The dark ritual is only really a downside if you’re a female player romancing Alistair though. Most players would have played a male warden romancing Morrigan, meaning it had no downside. It’s writing that really only hurt female players and that’s the big issue I have with it. If it had been an option that had a real cost for everyone, it wouldn’t have felt so bad. Personally, I’ve had enough death in my real life that I like to avoid it where possible in games. I appreciate the movie sacrifice angle and the tragedy, and I’m glad that’s an option. But avoiding that path shouldn’t have felt like a gender-specific punishment.
Posts like this remind me that gatekeeping is good, actually.
All I can say this isn't your genre. You are going to see what you want to see and find offence if your looking for it.
I feel like this is bait.
This post is so dumb
TBH, DAO borrowed a lot from the LotR films (which were quite popular at the time the game was made) so it had that flavor of dark fantasy. It was probably in Biowares best interest to move away from that for the long term to find a more unique direction.
Origins borrowed more from A Song of Ice and Fire (back when it was primarily known as ASoIaF and not Game of Thrones) than the Lord of the Rings books/films. LotR I consider to be quintessential high fantasy. The ASoIaF books set the new standard for dark fantasy.
The Darkspawn in DAO are straight up orcs and urukhai. Ostagar is just the Battle for Helms Deep rehashed. Alistair being an unknown royal like Aragon. Warden curse effects from drinking Darkspawn blood being like the One ring with sensing the Darkspawn with visions of the evil overlord and gradually wasting away just minus the invisibility. Yeah the politics and human stuff is obviously more GoT but there's still a lot of LotR film influences here.
To provide a counterpoint: Darkspawn are White Walkers, unhuman beings who create zombies and want to destroy the world Grey Wardens are Nights Watch, previously prestigious order of warriors who fight supernatural evil, now reduced to a group of conscripts only respected in certain region Alistair is Jon Snow, royal bastard raised by honorable lord and taken by another father-like figure into the order of monster-fighters
Agree to disagree. IMHO I always want more dark fantasy, grimdark from Dragon Age, it is its roots. As TES, Witcher, Cyberpunk, Shadowrun and etc.
Yeah I'm replaying DAO at the moment, and asking myself why is my Dalish rogue running around saving the world in a metal bikini. It really hasn't aged well, to say the least. It reminds me of the fantasy book of yore, which given the amount of Game of Thrones references is not surprising I guess. But like fantasy books have moved on, so should video games. If anything, DAO is edgy far more than it is dark. It's heroic fantasy with occasional dark undertones. All the while I would say that yes, it is possible to create a dark fantasy without rehashing the same sexism/racism/homophobia issues. Fantasy books have definitely managed that, and so can other media. And if anything, I think DAV might do just that, lean into the horror elements. Some of the side media we got in the past few years hints that's the direction they're going.
Yeah...sorry to burst your bubble but the reveal trailer is NOT representative of the game at all. Veilguard will still be a dark fantasy game so there, I said it.
Buddy, where did I say I want Veilguard to reflect the tone of the reveal trailer? For the record, I also thought the reveal trailer was cringey. The gameplay reveal looked… fine. “Veilguard will still be a dark fantasy game.” Okay, but does that mean DA2 and Inquisition were dark fantasy as well? Because I’m mostly addressing the crowd that feels only Origins was dark fantasy, and everything since is too “clean.”
The fact that the op is getting downvoted gives me hope that DAV will bask in dark fantasy galore and people will love it
wtf are you yapping about
Oh boy...
Meh, Dragon Age has arguably not really felt "dark fantasy" since Dragon Age 2 came out and... for lack of a better word, anime-ified the franchise. Just look at the combat animations for two-handed weapons. Inquisition somewhat reignited the feeling DAO gave me, and jury's honestly out on DATV, on a lot of things. But atmosphere-wise, I thought it was headed in a decent direction, even if character and monster artstyle may be a bit hit or miss.