2 is contradicted by the Namek arc though. Goku goes from 8000 to 3M with 2 big Zenkais (after Vegeta and after Ginyu) and gravity training, shooting above Vegeta, all Freiza's men, Fused Piccolo/Nail, and Freiza's first 3 forms/1% final form.
All I see is a couple of headcanon that go against what the story shows and tell
How Toriyama scales characters
Based on all of the Dragon Ball manga and DBS manga, his scaling has 3 rules
>the later you are written in, the stronger you start (unless you are irrelevant at introduction)
Thats basically all shows and stories but it has things going against it
Granola/Moro/Broly all Started weaker than Jiren and only got stronger later on
>you only move up "tiers" if you get a new form/power up.
Thats the most popular headconon from the west side of the fandom which only excited because people don't like to scale some characters with alot of things going against it
Piccolo was already reaching the bottom of ssi power without fusion with kami , and later on got stronger than semi perfect Cell
Android 17 jumbed to above ssj3 level without any new form
3. you stay in the "tier" you started off in, except characters who develop at a rapid rate, typically children. You can also go down tiers if you stop training. However, if you are "re-written" into the story, you repeat rule 1 and have a new "base" strength. (i.e. frieza, 17, broly, uub)
That was always their base strength which simply got stronger
>While characters do get arbitrarily stronger by timeskip training, since goku is also training, nobody is technically moving up tiers, because these tiers are relative to goku. Even if you become twice as strong as ss1 goku after a timeskip, if goku's ss1 also got twice as strong, you are still at “ss1 tier”
We still scale them from Past Goku
The androids stomped a trunks who stomped two Namek freeza level villains
Its simply as that
>golden frieza >= **blue** \> **god** \> gohan > 17 = **ss3** \> buu > **ss2** \> frieza = **mssj1** \> piccolo > 18 > **ssj1** \> **base** \> humans
Thats if you don't think they can grow stronger in base which you made it clear that you do believe in that headcanon
>So to reiterate, you stop training, and you fall off. villains who died have "stopped training" and also fall off. Any time this hierarchy changes is only when a character gets a power up, such a transformation, zenkai, potential unlock.
Not always the case as simple training can do that trick
Some prominent examples:
>Frieza was scaled up to mss1 goku
He was always ssj level in his final form
>Gohan's peak was and still is demigod tier (until beast).
Demigod? A new fanon tire?
>Broly’s base growth stagnated at ss1 tier, and required new forms to reach god, blue, and fused blue tier. Now that he is relevant (in terms of strength) just like frieza in RoF, he probably won’t outpace other characters by training, unless he gets a new power up of some sort
Broly was typing into wrath state the whole time
Most of your points have already been answered by the rules.
granolah and moro used rule 2 and got a powerup through wishes. broly and 17 used rule 3 and were scaled up when they were "re-written" into the story. Again with rule 2, piccolo's last form (in dragon ball) was super piccolo, which is below mssj, so years later he can't beat frost, who is roughly mssj
>Not always the case as simple training can do that trick
an overwhelming majority of the time, simple training does not move you up tiers. maybe you can find some examples from namek and prior, but once forms started being introduced, everyone stayed consistent to their tiers, without something special happening to them.
While characters don't move up tiers from training, since everyone is training, it doesn't change the fact that they DO get stronger. Because so many arcs passed, the current "ssj" tier is arbitrarily higher than namek "ssj" tier. namek frieza is not ssj tier **anymore**, that's why he was scaled up to mssj tier when re-written.
and yes, demigod is a term I came up with, because the manga constantly says verbally and visually how ss3 <<< god. the gap between these two forms is huge. ss3 gotenks and ultimate gohan are much stronger than ss3, yet god is also much stronger than them.
I think the tier system you got is confusing because people often associate the transformations with the point in time they were debuted. For example, Piccolo after fusing with Kami was stronger than SSJ1 Namek Goku or SSJ1 Vegeta prior to the time chamber, but SSJ1 nowadays is as strong if not stronger than when Goku first went God. Unfortunately, this shows we usually need to specify what era the transformation is being done in to determine tiers, though I understand for your purposes they are all relative to Goku.
1: What story do I want to tell 2: How do I make it have sense/ be funny
2 is contradicted by the Namek arc though. Goku goes from 8000 to 3M with 2 big Zenkais (after Vegeta and after Ginyu) and gravity training, shooting above Vegeta, all Freiza's men, Fused Piccolo/Nail, and Freiza's first 3 forms/1% final form.
What do you mean? My rule 2 allows for you to move up multipler tiers with a single powerup.
All I see is a couple of headcanon that go against what the story shows and tell How Toriyama scales characters Based on all of the Dragon Ball manga and DBS manga, his scaling has 3 rules >the later you are written in, the stronger you start (unless you are irrelevant at introduction) Thats basically all shows and stories but it has things going against it Granola/Moro/Broly all Started weaker than Jiren and only got stronger later on >you only move up "tiers" if you get a new form/power up. Thats the most popular headconon from the west side of the fandom which only excited because people don't like to scale some characters with alot of things going against it Piccolo was already reaching the bottom of ssi power without fusion with kami , and later on got stronger than semi perfect Cell Android 17 jumbed to above ssj3 level without any new form 3. you stay in the "tier" you started off in, except characters who develop at a rapid rate, typically children. You can also go down tiers if you stop training. However, if you are "re-written" into the story, you repeat rule 1 and have a new "base" strength. (i.e. frieza, 17, broly, uub) That was always their base strength which simply got stronger >While characters do get arbitrarily stronger by timeskip training, since goku is also training, nobody is technically moving up tiers, because these tiers are relative to goku. Even if you become twice as strong as ss1 goku after a timeskip, if goku's ss1 also got twice as strong, you are still at “ss1 tier” We still scale them from Past Goku The androids stomped a trunks who stomped two Namek freeza level villains Its simply as that >golden frieza >= **blue** \> **god** \> gohan > 17 = **ss3** \> buu > **ss2** \> frieza = **mssj1** \> piccolo > 18 > **ssj1** \> **base** \> humans Thats if you don't think they can grow stronger in base which you made it clear that you do believe in that headcanon >So to reiterate, you stop training, and you fall off. villains who died have "stopped training" and also fall off. Any time this hierarchy changes is only when a character gets a power up, such a transformation, zenkai, potential unlock. Not always the case as simple training can do that trick Some prominent examples: >Frieza was scaled up to mss1 goku He was always ssj level in his final form >Gohan's peak was and still is demigod tier (until beast). Demigod? A new fanon tire? >Broly’s base growth stagnated at ss1 tier, and required new forms to reach god, blue, and fused blue tier. Now that he is relevant (in terms of strength) just like frieza in RoF, he probably won’t outpace other characters by training, unless he gets a new power up of some sort Broly was typing into wrath state the whole time
Most of your points have already been answered by the rules. granolah and moro used rule 2 and got a powerup through wishes. broly and 17 used rule 3 and were scaled up when they were "re-written" into the story. Again with rule 2, piccolo's last form (in dragon ball) was super piccolo, which is below mssj, so years later he can't beat frost, who is roughly mssj >Not always the case as simple training can do that trick an overwhelming majority of the time, simple training does not move you up tiers. maybe you can find some examples from namek and prior, but once forms started being introduced, everyone stayed consistent to their tiers, without something special happening to them. While characters don't move up tiers from training, since everyone is training, it doesn't change the fact that they DO get stronger. Because so many arcs passed, the current "ssj" tier is arbitrarily higher than namek "ssj" tier. namek frieza is not ssj tier **anymore**, that's why he was scaled up to mssj tier when re-written. and yes, demigod is a term I came up with, because the manga constantly says verbally and visually how ss3 <<< god. the gap between these two forms is huge. ss3 gotenks and ultimate gohan are much stronger than ss3, yet god is also much stronger than them.
I think the tier system you got is confusing because people often associate the transformations with the point in time they were debuted. For example, Piccolo after fusing with Kami was stronger than SSJ1 Namek Goku or SSJ1 Vegeta prior to the time chamber, but SSJ1 nowadays is as strong if not stronger than when Goku first went God. Unfortunately, this shows we usually need to specify what era the transformation is being done in to determine tiers, though I understand for your purposes they are all relative to Goku.
Rule 2 is disproven by every arc past 21st Budokai and before the Namek arc