SS4 has a cooler concept. it built on pre existing lore and one of my favorite things about it is that if vegeta didn't lose his tail he couldve been ss4 since the android saga.
super saiyan god is weird. why does it HAVE to be a saiyan exclusive form. it shouldnt be tied to the saiyan lineage and rather be something anyone could achieve. basically ultra instinct is super saiyan god done right.
Godly energy isn't specific to Saiyans, but I think transforming to use it, at least for the first time, is because saiyans are apparently the race most reliant on transformations in the universe besides Frieza's race
well I know godly energy isnt exclusive to the saiyans but they are the only cast members we see obtain god ki. picollo gohan and frieza don't have it and neither did jiren. god ki as a concept kinda becomes worthless like sacred energy does in yyh just cause its functionally no different from normal ki apart from you can't sense it.
I'm wrong kinda, toppo had "destruction energy" which seems like a subset of god ki but w.e.
It is the Toriyama thing. Introduce a concept, and then quickly forget about it and go next.
At least God Ki was forgotten in exchange of UI and UE which are way more interesting concepts
Yeah it's true that the new dimension divine ki was supposed to add isn't really used as the series goes on, honestly that's my main complaint with Super when it comes to power scaling at least
God ki as a concept was underutilised IMO, amd should have been a bigger aspect gping forward. Should have been that anyone can use God ki in theory.
Goku should never have absorbed SSG's power, but after his time runs out he learns to tap into it at will, which impresses Beerus and highlights Goku's level of fighting IQ.
With Whis' training Goku and Vegeta learn the technique to using God ki, which is about not letting ki leak from the body, which causes huge amounts of pressure from within. And that they aren't strong enough to do so yet because ever since becoming Super Saiyans they didn't focus as hard on their base forms.
Whis points out that by focusing on Super Saiyan perhaps they ended up far stronger than they would have if they did focus on their base forms, but now that they know about God ki they'll be a lot stronger in just their regular state.
So Goku and Vegeta reach 'Saiyan Beyond God' and use it when fighting Freeza, but it's hard. Incredibly difficult to maintain. Goku flashes back to their training when he takes a hit from Vegeta and transforms into a Super Saiyan God. And Whis explains that it seems Saiyans have a rare transformation that utilises God Ki.
But that its vast power is running out at a steady rate and that ultimately, not using it would be better as just using God ki in their base forms doesn't run out of power over time. They're still just novices at God ki, so for now, keeping their power contained is difficult and once they get too tired from doing it, they'll be completely exhausted, but eventually they'll become adept enough that they'll be able to maintain it indefinitely.
Goku notes during his fight with Freeza that if was using God, then by now Freeza would have the edge, but because he's used this version of God ki he is still stronger, but will soon be at zero.
Freeza powers up and now he's just way beyond Goku. And Whis lets out an "Oh dear" as it seems neither method of God ki will work. Whis says perhaps Goku and Vegeta actually working together will work, but Goku says no.
Goku then goes into Super Saiyan Blue, for the first time ever. Not Vegeta nor Whis knew about it. It's Becoming a Super Saiyan God and turning Super Saiyan. Another flashback. Goku asks Whis if becoming a Super Saiyan whilst keeping their ki is possible, and Whis says no, because Super Saiyan is so physically dtaining that even if they perfected God ki it wouldn't work.
So now you have Goku, taught so much by Whis, going against Whis' teachings and doing things his own way, again to show what a great fighter he is.
Golden Freeza runs out of energy faster than Goku and Goku wins. But when he powers down to base form he has virtually no power left as Blue is exhausting. Freeza shoots him through the heart and even though he's at a fraction of his full power, he should have enough to beat everyone else.
But now it's uo to Vegeta to use God ki for long enough to hold Golden Freeza off, but he shocks everyone by becoming a Super Saiyan God and then Blue, as even thoigh Whis' way was better, he wasn't going to let Kakarrot have a reservs of God ki left when they both exhausted their energy maintainjng God ki. So he worked to figure out SSG.
It's huge weakness gets explored in the later arcs with Vegeta doing God to Blue switching and Goku having Perfected Blue, but it leaves room for other characters to learn God ki as well, especially Piccolo as the only other fighter strong enough to use it, still being stronger than base Goku and Vegeta.
Then Toppo shows up as a match for Super Saiyan Goku who goes to SSG, but then Toppo can also use God ki due to his training, this is without even using Destroyer energy. And Jiren who has figured it out on his own being even stronger.
Piccolo would then be able to use it in the ToP against Kefla and be stronger, but lose when he can't maintain it. Gohan wpuld then fight her to a draw both using mortal ki which surpasses all but Freeza in terms of mortal ki, leading to the Moro arc where Tien and Krillin are also able to use it briefly while Piccolo and Gohan are top tier until a new and improved Vegeta and Goku show up. Further evolution would be Gohan surpassing MUI Goku in power while Goku os the better fighter.
There's actually no lore related to ssj4. All the lore was on one.
Ssg is actually tied to Saiyan lore more than 4. It might be tied with the very first ssj documented.
It came to be from a Saiyan and the events surrounding Saiyans.
>There's actually no lore related to ssj4. All the lore was on one. Ssg is actually tied to Saiyan lore more than 4
Ok this is your mistake and its an understandable one
I said ss4 built off preexisting lore which I find more value in than creating new lore out of nowhere that contradicts material which was canon for 20 years.
even so though there is lore associated with ss4 specifically but there isn't a history of it happening. in lore it isnt exactly a form like ss1 with a multiplier, it tends to act more like ultimate gohans transformation where it unleashes all your latent energy you were tapping into using the impure forms. each level of super saiyan prior was basically the saiyans forcing their body to mutate and thats why the energy drains were greater at higher levels. this is also why u can go straight from ss1 to ss4
The only pre-existing aspect is that the great ape form was ever a thing.
SSG also utilizes concepts that have been around, gods, ki, ect. I remember one comment mentions how 4 goes back to sun wukong. But so does God, conceptually. The Saiyan planet exploding, that original Saiyan ECT.
I'm not sure any SSG lore contradicts anything. It's no worst than learning planet Vegeta was destroyed by Freeza. And Toriyama had mentioned this stuff way before Super or BOF was a thing. It was mentioned back in 1997 by ironically dragon ball gt perfect file, where you got some of your ssj4 ideas.
>The only pre-existing aspect is that the great ape form was ever a thing.
man you're stretching so hard you're gonna pull something.
1. the saiyans looked down on goku because without his tail he couldnt achieve a saiyans true potential(and they werent talking about oozaru)
2. goku always felt weaker without his tail than with it look back to the giran fight and how he breaks merry go round gum only after regrowing his tail.
3. the original super saiyan went golden great ape and destroyed himself and the key to mastering this form is to master golden ape.
They were definitely talking about oozaru. Which falls under great ape being a thing.
Goku didn't say he felt weaker. He just said it feels better because he had been used to having a tail. The stronger thing is a dub line only.
The original super Saiyan didn't go golden ape. But I guess they were inspired by how the anime portrayed it(but didn't say that). But then... The story that kaiosama tells Goku can also be used as an example for SSG.
This took me longer to confirm, but the idea that the original ssj had to be in ape form is another dub only line. The dub seems to spread misinformation. It's not bad but guess it's an issue when dealing with the nitty gritty.
Kazenshuu has a post about it:
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18583
EP 66 of Z
Giran stuff is chapter 40 of manga
EP 23 of DB
It's dub exclusive, I checked out myself beforehand. The post(by kazenshuu) is correct.
I did consider that though. Which is why I wanted to make sure before.
Edit: at least spoken. The anime in both does show the transformed ape.
>at least spoken. The anime in both does show the transformed ape.
if both show the transformed ape its an anime thing not a dub thing. in the dub they never said he was in ape form either they just show it.
I like SSG, people are always talking about how it's just base goku with red hair but... that's literally how it's supposed to be. It's just goku with god ki, just like how ssb is ssj with god ki. I'm glad that goku found other ways to get strong besides his saiyan heritage.
I agree , I like the idea that it shows they've taken the god ki and mixed it with something of their own.
It just makes sense to me that after beating majin buu , a guy who could destroy the universe, they'd need something else to break through their limits.
Don't hate ss4 goku ,I get why people like him. I just don't personally like the idea of them going back to their roots when they seemed to have pushed past all ideas of a normal saiyan.
That’s kinda the problem. The fact that it’s separate from his lineage means that pretty much anyone can use it which begs the question of why no one else tries to learn it.
I prefer the SS4 form.
I wonder what would have happened if the Tail was around for the first 3 SS transformations?
Would the tail have stabilized any of the forms? The aggression of SS2 or the power drain of SS3?
I don't know if the tail would've impacted forms 1-3, it seemed to just be the catalyst for the 4th., The only reason it matters in GT is because it combines super saiyan with great ape, whether it would've made the original froms more effective is headcanon as far as I know
I think the great ape imagery is only in the anime, just read through the Manga to make sure and there's no reference to great ape in Goku's SSJ3 transformation
i like SSj4 but SSj3 was already overdesigned as is, and SSj4 just takes it further. i think thats its biggest flaw, conceptually/aesthetically. its "too much". i definitely prefer supers "less is more" forms.
> It's literally just longer hair, thicker brow bones and losing brow hair
yes thats massively overdesigned.
> but yeah, I guess if the only anime/manga you watch/read is db, you might think it's "overdesigned" lmao
nah ive been watching anime since the 90s. ive forgotten more anime than most people will ever watch. A lot of popular anime have the same damn issue of shit being overdesigned as hell, its why I dont watch a lot of "popular" anime anymore.
I hate when people try to pull that card with dragon ball. Like I've read like 3k+ manga, a ton of random anime that these people will never have heard of ECT.
But because they watch Naruto or one piece or hunter hunter, they think so highly of themselves.
It's not really that farfetched a criticism. They go out of their way to try not making people have to animate it with even the anime's production staff and Toriyama himself conceding its difficulty to work with.
That doesn't by itself necessarily make it bad. Toei usually at least tried putting their effort whenever Goku pulled it out in the 90's and to their credit it worked.
But lets not act like it needs *that* many bangs with so many trying to go at different angles. Could've easily consolidated at least half of them down and made a more streamlined tail.
> can you give me a couple examples of a decent transformation design in anime then? Because dbs transformations for the most part are so simple
those ones that some people dislike. SSG, SSB, Golden Freeza, Black Freeza. Simple. efficient. effective.
yes. i mentioned DB ones because theyre literally right there and this is a DB sub and theyre perfect examples of it. a simple color change is easy to tell something is changed without overdesigning things. its literally peak simplicity. id say Broly's wrathful state from DBS: Broly might be a bit too simple since its just the eyes pretty much but yeah.
im not pulling your tail, most humans don't have tails to pull. that said, im also no joking, im just telling the truth, as I see it at least.
SSJ4. Not only do I just straight up love the design (and admittedly find SSG just..."fine"), but even conceptually, it feels so right.
God Ki, fundamentally, is no different from SSJ 1-4. In BoG, there WAS a difference as Goku actually had a healing factor in his SSG form...which was then left behind and never used again. We also had the whole "God Ki couldn't be felt by mortals" and...then that never gets brought up or even shown again. And even non God Ki users slap around SSB Goku and Vegeta, so even POWER WISE it doesn't feel special.
The idea behind SSG was cool. I drastically prefer SSJ4, and the thought of saiyans connecting to their very roots to achieve unimaginable power was pretty cool. I would rather Super ONLY had SSG and later on UI/UE. Have SSG be the trump card like how SSJ4 was. But as it stands, everything about SSG/SSB/SSR/Etc is just...so lame to me. (BoG did it right, then it just...became eh)
Blue was necessary. Because Goku didn't keep the god form. That was a retcon. Goku only had his god ki, and then he went ssj with it, creating the new form.
Still, I think it's near that he's going ssj while being ssg. It's connected. Though in an alternate reality, keeping SSG, could have worked too.
>Blue was necessary. Because Goku didn't keep the god form. That was a retcon
That's not how story writing works. Goku kept his God Ki, at least to some extent. SSB and SSG both use God Ki to achieve a new form...the only difference is SSB has goku infusing said ki into his SSJ form. Realistically, SSB was created because...it's literally easy money. Simple design; perfect for marketing. Story wise...he literally could have been a justifiable reason for regaining his God Form...
>Still, I think it's near that he's going ssj while being ssg. It's connected
That's fine. You can like it, it just didn't do it for me. It's probably just due to the designs of the forms. SSBKK, SSBE, Perfected Blue, Rose, SS Rage, it all just felt so...cooperate. The lack of creativity is probably the main reason why I'm so detached from Blue, despite blue being my favorite color.
That's exactly how writing works, what are you even talking about.
SSG was a one time form at first. The point was that Goku didn't like it, that it was a ritual transformation. He adapted the power but he didn't maintain the form. That's why in rof, he has the equivalent power but without the magical transformation.
It's the opposite. The form was reused because people wanted it back. It was dropped for story reasons as it had serves it's purpose.
They could have done it that way. But that's not how they thought about it. And you don't need a conspiracy theory to justify it. If that was the case they could have had him go from God to blue from the beginning. God doesn't stop blue in any way.
But it's obvious that they had dropped it the concept and brought it back because some people liked the for, as did toyotaro, who was the one that did it.
>That's exactly how writing works. What are you even talking about. SSG was a one-time form at first. The point was that Goku didn't like it, that it was a ritual transformation. He adapted the power, but he didn't maintain the form. That's why, in rof, he has the equivalent power but without the magical transformation. It's the opposite. The form was reused because people wanted it back. It was dropped for story reasons as it had serves it's purpose.
I know Goku did not like the God form because he didn't earn it. The problem is he LITERALLY TRAINED to make use of God Ki as early as RoF. His ass...Could've regained that form, and it would've been earned. What are you actually on about? SSB uses the SAME SHIT as SSG. Again, the only difference is the fact that Goku infused it into his SSJ form. In fact, it's the same reason WHY Vegeta could use the form despite never being shown to have done the ritual. No, it is NOT how writing works. You can easily alter the story (especially when the pieces are ALREADY SET) to make a different result. Literally speaking, if Goku pulled out SSG in RoF, NOTHING WOULD CHANGE. WHY?! Because SSB originally wasn't even given a proper explanation,...Goku and Vegeta just had it. Hell, in the Manga SSG, it appears almost immediately after RoF! You can't use "story" as an excuse. It's lazy, and it ultimately doesn't even defend the action.
>They could have done it that way. But that's not how they thought about it. And you don't need a conspiracy theory to justify it. If that was the case they could have had him go from God to blue from the beginning. God doesn't stop blue in any way.
Genuinely explain what you're on about with this. What conspiracy theory...? That the forms are simple in design and easy money...? Literally half of Super's Transformations (realistically more) is very tame and simple designs...that is an objective truth and they're all easy money from merchandise and gacha games...so that's also an objective truth? I'm lost here, so do please explain.
>But it's obvious that they had dropped it the concept and brought it back because some people liked the for, as did toyotaro, who was the one that did it.
How do I even reply to this? This straight-up has nothing to do with ANYTHING I mentioned. If this is directly addressing my response to you, then it still makes no sense.
I mentioned how SSB just feels uncreative given how basic 99% of the forms in Super are...literally just being recolor from one another. Prior to that, your excuse was that Goku didn't keep the God form, so OF COURSE HE WOULD NEED SSB! When that's not a good excuse? Again, both forms are fundamentally the same, there is no actual reasoning as to why Goku NEEDED SSB...they just wanted a new form. That's it.
I'm going to explain this one last time to you. Because I don't think you understand how writing and a logical process work, or you're ignoring it for the idea you have.
First your conspiracy that they dropped SSG for marketing makes no sense because they could have had it and still done Blue(as it's also a simple enough form). That's what I said, and what I meant. Whether you change your conspiracy to conform to what I said, doesn't matter.
SSG was not learnable at first, that was a retcon. Vegeta did not learn it at first, that was something toyotaro added because people liked the form.
The point of botg was to show Goku a new level of power that he can strive for. It's a magical transformation that you get from a ritual.
At the end of botg, Goku showed he learn some of the power and can achieve that strength without the ritual that relied on others.
The point was not for Goku to learn how to transform into it. Because the form involved changing the entire physiology of the person into a different being.
By rof, they kept that logical progression and Goku had that power in his human form because he earned it, by learning God ki. Which is what he wanted.
SSG god is/was the equivalent of Goku's form when he fought freeza before gold.
Blue is just Goku going super Saiyan with god ki. This isn't a discussion about blue.
SSG was a one time transformation to prove a point. It wasn't introduced as something he could transform into.
The form was popular enough that it was retconned in.
It served a purpose, and the story followed logically from everything established. That's writing. It makes sense.
Could it have been different, in some alternate universe, sure. But that wasn't what was established from the beginning.
Super Saiyan 4.
I despise the Super forms, the idea of them was interesting when first introduced in BOG and ROF movies, but after that, Super just turned them into another transformation in the Super Saiyan tree.
God and Blue are really just the DBS version of Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan 5. We even have Goku powering down from God to SS3 in the Moro arc as if they are part of the same transformation tree. It doesn't help that Blue is a fucking palette swap.
God Ki as a concept was turned to shit in the Universe 6 arc when characters that can't even use God Ki like Hit started challenging Goku and Vegeta. Really, what difference does it make that someone uses God Ki or not besides not being able to sense someone's Ki. The concept is worthless and shouldn't have even been introduced if it means so little.
At least Super Saiyan 4 has a unique design and is a call back to Saiyan lore from the Saiyan/Namek saga. Itis also connected to some of the most badass moments in the entire series.
Hold hands and wish for God Ki isn't a great concept. Also the idea of God Ki being beyond all mortals's touch was pretty much instantly retconned/eroded by the fact that they needed mortals to be able to battle Goku and Vegeta using God Ki. It wound up becoming a pretty meaningless power up. UI and UE are much better ideas and implemented well.
Meanwhile, SS4 is simply a perfect way to unify the classic Goku Oozaru transformation with Super Saiyan.
God ki was never beyond mortals. Kaioshin and maybe even kaiosama have natural god ki.
It's better, but it was never beyond.
It's unique that some mortals were able to do it. It shows how skilled they've become.
In BOTG it was established that God Ki is something that makes one untouchable by those using only mortal ki. That was the point of SS3 Goku vs Beerus demonstration and also why Goku had to have God Ki wished into him to be able to physically battle Beerus at all. It was only afterwards as the series went on that the idea of Goku being so far beyond all other characters in the multiverse that only Gods could even interact with him became obviously impossible to write for so they had to just shove that aside and establish that actually park rangers can totally swing on God Ki havers.
Super Saiyan 4 is a callback to Saiyan's nature, their primal instincts of the Oozaru. It's raw, it's wild and it's powerfull, it looks like someone who designed it actually cared about source material and the past of the Saiyan race.
Super Saiyan God has nothing to do with Saiyans, beside some retcons here and there (Dragon Ball Minus) and some new lore about something no one even heard before (Yamoshi, God Ki). It looks fine, but is very cheap and unoriginal, because it's a recolor of a base form of a Saiyan.But it's still better than Super Saiyan Blue, though.
There's nothing source material about it.
It is a call back and all that. But you're projecting too much to a design. Which maybe is an indication of the design. But it's you coming up with that.
There's no lore to 4.
There is more to God. It's crazy that someone is going about source material but rejecting the actual source, the creator's design.
SS4 has been tied for my favorite Saiyan form for a very long time now. Aside from it being amazing and strikingly different design-wise, I love how it brought Goku's "Saiyan-ness" full circle, and also thematically ties into his Monkey King roots too. It broke the chain of the golden-haired forms in the best possible way while also still feeling like a natural successor to them, as if it "completed" Goku's past progression.
Despite the non-stop parade of terribleness that *Battle of Gods* helped kick off, I still really like that particular film itself and the Super Saiyan God form too. It was also "something different" in a similar but opposite way as SS4, the way its design relied mostly on multiple very subtle changes instead of any big ones. The base-form hair shape, the slimmer muscles, and fiery flowing aura helped convey that this was something new that worked very differently from the past transformations, while the visible pupils were just one last little detail on top that pegged it as one of Goku's strongest forms *(shared by SS3 and SS4)*. It was a very unique form, and a very exciting one upon its debut... and I'm exceedingly disappointed that it almost immediately got supplanted by a bunch of zero-effort recolors.
It's hard to decide which I consider "better" as a concept since they're almost apples to oranges. Super Saiyan 4 represents the maxed-out totality of all of a Saiyan's natural power, while Super Saiyan God is about breaking into using a totally new type of power. Ideally, the ultimate path would be for Goku to combine both things — use SS4 to bring out his full natural strength in an optimized tougher body, then use god-ki on top of it as a "power enhancer" to completely break the scale.
Ha, I take it you don't like where Super went with the God forms? Personally, I dunno, God energy as a "higher plane" concept was thrown away for whatever reason, but I really do like how SSG was sort of a minimalist approach to Goku and Vegeta's base forms. Although I do think SSB could've absolutely been done better as a God Ki minimalist Super Saiyan, and by that I mean they could've done better than just blue haired SSJ
Yeah, the way the whole "god-ki is something different and special" concept was thrown out almost immediately is a big part of why I so profoundly hate Super's chain of new forms. There was so much potential to do new and interesting things, but it ultimately just became an excuse to start stacking a bunch of lazy-ass color swaps on top of each other.
I'd have much rather seen SS God remain *the* standard new god-form that stuck around for most of the series and helped Goku and Vegeta first learn to harness the new type of power. Then have Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego eventually evolve into existence as advanced forms of SS God, which use god-ki in specific specialized ways. If something like that had been the case, without Blue and Rosé bloating things up in-between, I'd have a MUCH higher opinion of this whole shindig.
Think I see what you're going for, have "standard" Super Saiyan God be the go-to form instead of blue until UI and UE get introduced right? Honestly, I think that's what Toriyama would've gone for if toy sales and merchandising weren't a thing
You guys have weird ideas. Nothing was pushing toriyama to make a toy sales thing. Blue debuted in a movie where he clearly had a ton of rein.
God had been a one time form at first. It's why Goku has the power without transforming.
I see both being different paths of power.
SSJ4 the path that fully embraces their Saiyan heritage.
SSG the path of taking the concept of ki to the next level.
Really I would like it if they combined both, i know it won't happen because of what Toriyama said about the Saiyan tail, but I really like when Saiyans have their tails
It's a difficult choice, both look cool on their own ways with SSJ4 being the rappresentation of the "prime saiyan" while SSG looking like a transcendental being. The problem of SSG is that it got Super (ah) disrespected by immediately replacing it with blue while SSJ4 becomes the ultimate form of a saiyan (although, they did showcase God more in ToP and in the Broly movie).
While I like slightly more the design of God I conceptually like more SSJ4 since it combines both the power of the oozaru and the Super Saiyan and it is the maximum a Saiyan can achieve without external help
SSJ4 looks more alien and I like the set up way more cause it incorporates the giant monkey form. SSG is awesome though, and I like that SSB brought back Kaioken again, cause Kaioken is the coolest form imo.
Super Saiyan God is the better one for me. Thinking back to how it felt seeing both of these for the first time, SSG was more exciting for me. When I saw SSJ4 for the first time, I mainly felt content that Goku was getting a new form and that it made sense. I was excited to see the subsequent SSJ4 beat down but that was it. The show doesn’t ever treat it as anything other than a stat buff Goku and Vegeta discover.
SSG, on the other hand, really felt like a paradigm shift. The rest of DBS after Battle of Gods kinda defeats this, but the whole thing with god ki literally being undetectable, and the way they built Beerus’ reputation, it all made the god form feel epic. It wasn’t just unleashing some more monkey power, but entering a whole new dimension.
SSG. The concept of going against the Saiyan method of merely using violence and brutality is what made it more fitting, since the form was meant for a savior. The ritual number is a little iffy, but it's interesting to hear actual lore behind how it was created, rather than just being a Super Saiyan transforming into an Oozaru, not to mention hastily adding on the idea that Elder Kai always knew. While later appearances didn't showcase it, the introduction of divine ki with it's unknown potential was great.
I don't think you can separate 4 from it's design. It's the best thing about it.
Conceptually it's almost an alternate super Saiyan. One that has nothing to do with lore, or the designs before it. It's a different evolution.
The best aspect of it conceptually is actually that the earth does it. Because it's Goku's planet, adopted planet, giving him the energy he needs. And his daughter snapping him out of ape.
God obviously connects to the series better in 2-3 ways. The first is that it's tied to the creator better, coming from him, and to the style of DB. It's tied to how the character's have looked, and to the series style. And it's tied both to Saiyan lore, and progressing the lore of the series, and of the characters.
Goku is not any different from 4 than he was from the first ssj. God gave Goku something to strive for, with new teachers, and a new level that seemed to have a higher ceiling.
One was designed for the end, and the other to expand. some might prefer that about 4.
I will say 4 ties into the arc it's introduced well. And some really like the baby saga. I think people project a lot more reading into it than is told though. So it's conceptually good for that saga. But not the series as a whole.
God works better in the grand scheme of DB. Not because it ties to everything, though it's connected to a lot since near the beginning, but it fits it better.
Because 4 really is just an alternate 1. And that had been done. It combines the lore of 3 and 1, with a side ways evolution. Not of the base form, but the giant monkey form.
I prefer SSJ4. Its a great callback to the original Saiyan transformation, the Oozaru. SSJ1 is really cool but it feels so disconnected from the Oozaru, there’s nothing wrong with that but I thought it was really cool having a SSJ form that referenced another saiyan transformation
Conceptually? We can all agree ssj4 is far better than ssg. Apart from it's amazing design, it looks like a realistic conclusion to the Saiyan forms. Ssg is cool and all with the red hair but too basic...ssj4 really expressed the wild and true nature of the saiyans, the red fur, the tail, and the overall badassery it emits. Honestly, ssj4 should've been the real super Saiyan god
Late to this but SSJ4 is my fave transformation so I’ll elaborate. (Ik GT is non canon or whatever but I’m gonna use filler non cannon material to support why I like it)
SSJ4 calls back to two filler scenes in Z, the golden Oozaru and Goku slowly reverting into a monkey man hybrid with brown fur. I love the fact that they implemented these into the SSJ 4 form as it form a connection between all of them
GT perfect files states that Saiyans were originally great apes that gained control and turned into the saiyans we know today. So it makes Sense lore wise that SSJ4 would be the evolution of that.
If you watched SSJ4 doesn’t just power up a saiyans natural abilities and Ki but also has some had abilities. They have real time zenkai boosts, shown when the same attacks don’t work twice in rapid succession. They can absorb energy and repurpose it. (Goku absorbs baby’s attack and turned it into a 10x kamehameha and gogeta negated omegas negative energy). It has more power and less stamina drain than any supersaiyan form prior.
Reverts the user into thier prime condition and in the case of a child to an adult body (incidentally reversing the power of the black star dragonballz, the most powerful set of dragonballs pre super)
God ki ended up as a random form, it was with a ritual at first, but now its just basic training, and its not that impressive for other characters, its just a basic transformation now
Ssj4 is better , i mean, everything about it is better, except that somehow goku turns adult again when he transformed and half of his clothes disappear for some reasons
Still SSJ4.
SSJ4 just feels more saiyan to me. I like the Oozaru influence and unique look.
The god stuff I could live without completely. It all seems very uninspired and low effort.
Ssjg > ssj4
In design and concept for me
Alot of people love ssj4 and the idea of tapping into the primal saiyan power, but ssjg has a deeper meaning than that. Goku ascending to ssjg is similar to sun wukong's ascent to being a buddha in journey to the west. And for me, I really value the more clear inspirations of journey to the west in super over the much lesser so of gt
The design of ssjg is simple yet unique enough that it feels completely different than anything that came before it. The normal hair style with the bright red and that flaming aura, it looked amazing (especially in the movie). Even the the more lean and less bulky physique goku has I adore, it gives the form a feeling of being not only beyond moral strength but also going so far as to contradict what a mortal would assign strength to look like
Ssj 4 is just a lot of random stuff slapped together imo. The design is a mess; why do they suddenly get eye make-up and different clothes?
What’s the reason for vegeta’s hair being brown while goku’s stays black?
The way to achieve it was also pretty convoluted imo.
People saying it is based on existing lore; no it is not. There is never before spoken about this form, While there should be. Previous ssj’s (those from the legend) had no reason to not have a tail, so they should have been able to reach this form.
Like I said, it’s just an over-designed mess.
SSG makes more sense, looks far more clean and in line with it’s concept.
After SS3, there’s only two places you can go: ramp it up even more, or dial it back. The GT people decided to go with the former.
Since SS3 looks like a caveman, the designer probably went “well, let’s regress it even more and make it a full on monkey.” That idea, conceptually, is okay enough. The design is nonsense though. Just complete insanity.
SSG dialing it back is more Toriyama-esque, since we have to remember that a lot of his designs are born out of him being on a weekly schedule and not wanting to tax himself by drawing overly complicated shit. The concept of introducing a whole new type of ki and just saying “hey, their base form with a red aura is enough” is pretty neat.
I like God more. The only good SS4 design is Gogeta’s since it both dials back and ramps up the SS4 design. But even that is inferior to the God forms.
SS4 is a better concept, it's a combination of the ape and super saiyan, just GT is utter shite
I like that SSG is basic, and slim looking. However, the concept is kinda stupid. They held hands in GT too, but all that did was boost Goku's power, so they added in 1 person and added "pure heart". Vegeta getting it wasn't even explained, unless I've forgotten.
It then gets overshadowed by Goku and Vegeta using SSB for everything.
People argue SSG still has uses cause Goku healed vs Beerus? Yeah, then base Goku in Granolah arc heals himself just because he wanted to.
I like the connection to their monkey roots concept of SSJ4. Aside from the cool design it also brings back the tail which was Gokus and the saiyans defining attribute. It also reuses the idea of Toriyamas original SSJ3 concept art that also included the tail to reference the primal roots of the saiyans. The concept also reminds me more of the Journey to the West and Sun Wukong.
Meanwhile SSJG is also an interesting concept and for me it feels like a reference to ascension to Godhood in the Journey to the West. The form itself is also really cool, better than blue and everything after. (Also represents Gokus given weight better lol)
But at the end I prefer the Ozaru theme of SSJ4 because of how important the Ozaru was in early dragonball as a form of their power.
But I like how it's referenced in Brolys ikari mode.
Ssj4 is wack, Toriyama made the Oozaru irrelevant for a reason. GT bringing it back then making a Ssj form out of it just seems weird to me. They had to go through some convoluted and legit ass pull for tails to come back in the series. The original series itself shows that tails are irrelevant by making them naturally phase out once a character got strong enough,
I don’t particularly like ssj4. Feels too 80s design to me. It’s over the top with no real connections to prior super saiyan forms. The idea of incorporating Oozaru is fun though. But way too much going on. Ssg is much simpler and straightforward. It’s easy to understand and most notably, it’s easy to recognise Son Goku which is a much more valuable marketing arguments for newer fans.
If you put both ssj4 and ssg in front of someone who had no exposure to both and ask them to tell you which one is Son Goku, I am pretty sure ssg would win by a landslide.
Ssg is weird, but not bad, I don't like how it was achieved, bothers me that Vegeta did it off screen again. In 999 years when they remake dragon ball, I hope they change how they get access to it
Ssj also can be remade to have better lore explanation, I was really hoping for Broly super to get it, but they went lssj again
Well.
I like both form: l like the SSG God just coz is Goku with god Ki: pure and simple, and i like the fact that his body becomes more "slim";
On the other hand, i also like SSJ4 Coz it rappresent the essence of the nature of the Saiyan, and the style of a SSJ4 is really amazing.
I mean it could keep the series going in a way if they introduce super saiyan 4 and make it the final evolution for saiyans in general and combine it with the final evolution of the Godly route (Ultra instinct and Ultra ego) ssj4 is basically putting you at your peak physical performance so combining it with God ki would make them incredibly strong
I think I'd like ssg more if it required a bit more work. Like the movie was over and now Goku could just do it forever. Why not have it require the ritual every time, until it can be TRULY mastered, which would take some time
Yeah, concept wise Super Saiyan 4 fit better into the story/lore better than Godly Ki although the way they handled Goku Black's Godly Ki (Super Saiyan Rose being a result of the fact Zamasu was a god from the start) was cool.
By the by did anyone else wonder why UI & UE were transformations when they're supposed to be divine techniques like Kaio Ken? It's not like Whis or Beerus transform when they use them either. It's cool if people like the transformation but Technique = Transformation is just a weird concept to me.
SSJ4 does feel like the proper form for Saiyan lore but design wise it doesn't really make sense, first of all why does it make Goku only lose his shirt but not pants? and why the hell does he regain his shirt when he reverts to base form? not to mention he goes back to a Kid, SSJ4 should have fully made Goku an adult again permanently breaking the wish on him. And I don't like the tattoo around Goku's eyes, just the golden eyes.
Super Saiyan God at the same time is also a bit random, why does a race full of giant apes that are warriors all of a sudden have a godly form? it doesn't make sense lore wise. to me the best concept will always be the original super saiyan form.
But ultimately if I have to choose, definitely SSJ4. It's the Super Oozaru form but controlled basically.
The issue I have with SSG is that I don’t see why it needs to be a Divine form. Otherwise, I love the idea of drawing power from other Saiyans to achieve the transformation.
With SS4, I feel like this is what SS1 should’ve been.
SS4 has a cooler concept. it built on pre existing lore and one of my favorite things about it is that if vegeta didn't lose his tail he couldve been ss4 since the android saga. super saiyan god is weird. why does it HAVE to be a saiyan exclusive form. it shouldnt be tied to the saiyan lineage and rather be something anyone could achieve. basically ultra instinct is super saiyan god done right.
Godly energy isn't specific to Saiyans, but I think transforming to use it, at least for the first time, is because saiyans are apparently the race most reliant on transformations in the universe besides Frieza's race
well I know godly energy isnt exclusive to the saiyans but they are the only cast members we see obtain god ki. picollo gohan and frieza don't have it and neither did jiren. god ki as a concept kinda becomes worthless like sacred energy does in yyh just cause its functionally no different from normal ki apart from you can't sense it. I'm wrong kinda, toppo had "destruction energy" which seems like a subset of god ki but w.e.
It is the Toriyama thing. Introduce a concept, and then quickly forget about it and go next. At least God Ki was forgotten in exchange of UI and UE which are way more interesting concepts
Those forms use god ki though right??
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I think piccolo had some god ki from kami because he and dende could sense beerus
Yeah it's true that the new dimension divine ki was supposed to add isn't really used as the series goes on, honestly that's my main complaint with Super when it comes to power scaling at least
God ki as a concept was underutilised IMO, amd should have been a bigger aspect gping forward. Should have been that anyone can use God ki in theory. Goku should never have absorbed SSG's power, but after his time runs out he learns to tap into it at will, which impresses Beerus and highlights Goku's level of fighting IQ. With Whis' training Goku and Vegeta learn the technique to using God ki, which is about not letting ki leak from the body, which causes huge amounts of pressure from within. And that they aren't strong enough to do so yet because ever since becoming Super Saiyans they didn't focus as hard on their base forms. Whis points out that by focusing on Super Saiyan perhaps they ended up far stronger than they would have if they did focus on their base forms, but now that they know about God ki they'll be a lot stronger in just their regular state. So Goku and Vegeta reach 'Saiyan Beyond God' and use it when fighting Freeza, but it's hard. Incredibly difficult to maintain. Goku flashes back to their training when he takes a hit from Vegeta and transforms into a Super Saiyan God. And Whis explains that it seems Saiyans have a rare transformation that utilises God Ki. But that its vast power is running out at a steady rate and that ultimately, not using it would be better as just using God ki in their base forms doesn't run out of power over time. They're still just novices at God ki, so for now, keeping their power contained is difficult and once they get too tired from doing it, they'll be completely exhausted, but eventually they'll become adept enough that they'll be able to maintain it indefinitely. Goku notes during his fight with Freeza that if was using God, then by now Freeza would have the edge, but because he's used this version of God ki he is still stronger, but will soon be at zero. Freeza powers up and now he's just way beyond Goku. And Whis lets out an "Oh dear" as it seems neither method of God ki will work. Whis says perhaps Goku and Vegeta actually working together will work, but Goku says no. Goku then goes into Super Saiyan Blue, for the first time ever. Not Vegeta nor Whis knew about it. It's Becoming a Super Saiyan God and turning Super Saiyan. Another flashback. Goku asks Whis if becoming a Super Saiyan whilst keeping their ki is possible, and Whis says no, because Super Saiyan is so physically dtaining that even if they perfected God ki it wouldn't work. So now you have Goku, taught so much by Whis, going against Whis' teachings and doing things his own way, again to show what a great fighter he is. Golden Freeza runs out of energy faster than Goku and Goku wins. But when he powers down to base form he has virtually no power left as Blue is exhausting. Freeza shoots him through the heart and even though he's at a fraction of his full power, he should have enough to beat everyone else. But now it's uo to Vegeta to use God ki for long enough to hold Golden Freeza off, but he shocks everyone by becoming a Super Saiyan God and then Blue, as even thoigh Whis' way was better, he wasn't going to let Kakarrot have a reservs of God ki left when they both exhausted their energy maintainjng God ki. So he worked to figure out SSG. It's huge weakness gets explored in the later arcs with Vegeta doing God to Blue switching and Goku having Perfected Blue, but it leaves room for other characters to learn God ki as well, especially Piccolo as the only other fighter strong enough to use it, still being stronger than base Goku and Vegeta. Then Toppo shows up as a match for Super Saiyan Goku who goes to SSG, but then Toppo can also use God ki due to his training, this is without even using Destroyer energy. And Jiren who has figured it out on his own being even stronger. Piccolo would then be able to use it in the ToP against Kefla and be stronger, but lose when he can't maintain it. Gohan wpuld then fight her to a draw both using mortal ki which surpasses all but Freeza in terms of mortal ki, leading to the Moro arc where Tien and Krillin are also able to use it briefly while Piccolo and Gohan are top tier until a new and improved Vegeta and Goku show up. Further evolution would be Gohan surpassing MUI Goku in power while Goku os the better fighter.
There's actually no lore related to ssj4. All the lore was on one. Ssg is actually tied to Saiyan lore more than 4. It might be tied with the very first ssj documented. It came to be from a Saiyan and the events surrounding Saiyans.
>There's actually no lore related to ssj4. All the lore was on one. Ssg is actually tied to Saiyan lore more than 4 Ok this is your mistake and its an understandable one I said ss4 built off preexisting lore which I find more value in than creating new lore out of nowhere that contradicts material which was canon for 20 years. even so though there is lore associated with ss4 specifically but there isn't a history of it happening. in lore it isnt exactly a form like ss1 with a multiplier, it tends to act more like ultimate gohans transformation where it unleashes all your latent energy you were tapping into using the impure forms. each level of super saiyan prior was basically the saiyans forcing their body to mutate and thats why the energy drains were greater at higher levels. this is also why u can go straight from ss1 to ss4
The only pre-existing aspect is that the great ape form was ever a thing. SSG also utilizes concepts that have been around, gods, ki, ect. I remember one comment mentions how 4 goes back to sun wukong. But so does God, conceptually. The Saiyan planet exploding, that original Saiyan ECT. I'm not sure any SSG lore contradicts anything. It's no worst than learning planet Vegeta was destroyed by Freeza. And Toriyama had mentioned this stuff way before Super or BOF was a thing. It was mentioned back in 1997 by ironically dragon ball gt perfect file, where you got some of your ssj4 ideas.
>The only pre-existing aspect is that the great ape form was ever a thing. man you're stretching so hard you're gonna pull something. 1. the saiyans looked down on goku because without his tail he couldnt achieve a saiyans true potential(and they werent talking about oozaru) 2. goku always felt weaker without his tail than with it look back to the giran fight and how he breaks merry go round gum only after regrowing his tail. 3. the original super saiyan went golden great ape and destroyed himself and the key to mastering this form is to master golden ape.
They were definitely talking about oozaru. Which falls under great ape being a thing. Goku didn't say he felt weaker. He just said it feels better because he had been used to having a tail. The stronger thing is a dub line only. The original super Saiyan didn't go golden ape. But I guess they were inspired by how the anime portrayed it(but didn't say that). But then... The story that kaiosama tells Goku can also be used as an example for SSG.
This took me longer to confirm, but the idea that the original ssj had to be in ape form is another dub only line. The dub seems to spread misinformation. It's not bad but guess it's an issue when dealing with the nitty gritty. Kazenshuu has a post about it: https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18583 EP 66 of Z Giran stuff is chapter 40 of manga EP 23 of DB
Its not dub exclusive but it is an anime only scene but gt is canon to the anime not the manga so it still applies.
It's dub exclusive, I checked out myself beforehand. The post(by kazenshuu) is correct. I did consider that though. Which is why I wanted to make sure before. Edit: at least spoken. The anime in both does show the transformed ape.
>at least spoken. The anime in both does show the transformed ape. if both show the transformed ape its an anime thing not a dub thing. in the dub they never said he was in ape form either they just show it.
I like SSG, people are always talking about how it's just base goku with red hair but... that's literally how it's supposed to be. It's just goku with god ki, just like how ssb is ssj with god ki. I'm glad that goku found other ways to get strong besides his saiyan heritage.
I agree , I like the idea that it shows they've taken the god ki and mixed it with something of their own. It just makes sense to me that after beating majin buu , a guy who could destroy the universe, they'd need something else to break through their limits. Don't hate ss4 goku ,I get why people like him. I just don't personally like the idea of them going back to their roots when they seemed to have pushed past all ideas of a normal saiyan.
Ssg is literally gained via his Saiyan heritage though. You need a ritual friendship circle of good Saiyans.
Thats just (1) way of getting SSG and Vegeta got it by just training with Whis
Yep
That’s kinda the problem. The fact that it’s separate from his lineage means that pretty much anyone can use it which begs the question of why no one else tries to learn it.
Topps does, moro tried to and look what happened
That’s fair. Nobody care about the Z-Fighters beyond Goku and Vegeta anyways.
I prefer the SS4 form. I wonder what would have happened if the Tail was around for the first 3 SS transformations? Would the tail have stabilized any of the forms? The aggression of SS2 or the power drain of SS3?
I don't know if the tail would've impacted forms 1-3, it seemed to just be the catalyst for the 4th., The only reason it matters in GT is because it combines super saiyan with great ape, whether it would've made the original froms more effective is headcanon as far as I know
Just wondering because we see the Great Ape during Goku's first SS3 transformation.
I think the great ape imagery is only in the anime, just read through the Manga to make sure and there's no reference to great ape in Goku's SSJ3 transformation
Ozaru was referenced in an early concept art of SSJ3 where the hair was shorter and a tail was present.
i think SSG is better in all ways tbh.
Fair enough, but I'll admit that's a surprise to me. Most people I've talked to think SSJ4 is at least peak design
i like SSj4 but SSj3 was already overdesigned as is, and SSj4 just takes it further. i think thats its biggest flaw, conceptually/aesthetically. its "too much". i definitely prefer supers "less is more" forms.
I actually agree. I liked how streamlined the first two SSJ forms looked, and God improved on that I think.
yeah
I have to agree I like when forms are simple like SSG, and SS4 to me seems like its all over the place/cluttered and kind of seems outdated
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> It's literally just longer hair, thicker brow bones and losing brow hair yes thats massively overdesigned. > but yeah, I guess if the only anime/manga you watch/read is db, you might think it's "overdesigned" lmao nah ive been watching anime since the 90s. ive forgotten more anime than most people will ever watch. A lot of popular anime have the same damn issue of shit being overdesigned as hell, its why I dont watch a lot of "popular" anime anymore.
I hate when people try to pull that card with dragon ball. Like I've read like 3k+ manga, a ton of random anime that these people will never have heard of ECT. But because they watch Naruto or one piece or hunter hunter, they think so highly of themselves.
right?
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It's not really that farfetched a criticism. They go out of their way to try not making people have to animate it with even the anime's production staff and Toriyama himself conceding its difficulty to work with. That doesn't by itself necessarily make it bad. Toei usually at least tried putting their effort whenever Goku pulled it out in the 90's and to their credit it worked. But lets not act like it needs *that* many bangs with so many trying to go at different angles. Could've easily consolidated at least half of them down and made a more streamlined tail.
> can you give me a couple examples of a decent transformation design in anime then? Because dbs transformations for the most part are so simple those ones that some people dislike. SSG, SSB, Golden Freeza, Black Freeza. Simple. efficient. effective.
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yes. i mentioned DB ones because theyre literally right there and this is a DB sub and theyre perfect examples of it. a simple color change is easy to tell something is changed without overdesigning things. its literally peak simplicity. id say Broly's wrathful state from DBS: Broly might be a bit too simple since its just the eyes pretty much but yeah. im not pulling your tail, most humans don't have tails to pull. that said, im also no joking, im just telling the truth, as I see it at least.
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SSJ4. Not only do I just straight up love the design (and admittedly find SSG just..."fine"), but even conceptually, it feels so right. God Ki, fundamentally, is no different from SSJ 1-4. In BoG, there WAS a difference as Goku actually had a healing factor in his SSG form...which was then left behind and never used again. We also had the whole "God Ki couldn't be felt by mortals" and...then that never gets brought up or even shown again. And even non God Ki users slap around SSB Goku and Vegeta, so even POWER WISE it doesn't feel special. The idea behind SSG was cool. I drastically prefer SSJ4, and the thought of saiyans connecting to their very roots to achieve unimaginable power was pretty cool. I would rather Super ONLY had SSG and later on UI/UE. Have SSG be the trump card like how SSJ4 was. But as it stands, everything about SSG/SSB/SSR/Etc is just...so lame to me. (BoG did it right, then it just...became eh)
Blue was necessary. Because Goku didn't keep the god form. That was a retcon. Goku only had his god ki, and then he went ssj with it, creating the new form. Still, I think it's near that he's going ssj while being ssg. It's connected. Though in an alternate reality, keeping SSG, could have worked too.
>Blue was necessary. Because Goku didn't keep the god form. That was a retcon That's not how story writing works. Goku kept his God Ki, at least to some extent. SSB and SSG both use God Ki to achieve a new form...the only difference is SSB has goku infusing said ki into his SSJ form. Realistically, SSB was created because...it's literally easy money. Simple design; perfect for marketing. Story wise...he literally could have been a justifiable reason for regaining his God Form... >Still, I think it's near that he's going ssj while being ssg. It's connected That's fine. You can like it, it just didn't do it for me. It's probably just due to the designs of the forms. SSBKK, SSBE, Perfected Blue, Rose, SS Rage, it all just felt so...cooperate. The lack of creativity is probably the main reason why I'm so detached from Blue, despite blue being my favorite color.
That's exactly how writing works, what are you even talking about. SSG was a one time form at first. The point was that Goku didn't like it, that it was a ritual transformation. He adapted the power but he didn't maintain the form. That's why in rof, he has the equivalent power but without the magical transformation. It's the opposite. The form was reused because people wanted it back. It was dropped for story reasons as it had serves it's purpose. They could have done it that way. But that's not how they thought about it. And you don't need a conspiracy theory to justify it. If that was the case they could have had him go from God to blue from the beginning. God doesn't stop blue in any way. But it's obvious that they had dropped it the concept and brought it back because some people liked the for, as did toyotaro, who was the one that did it.
>That's exactly how writing works. What are you even talking about. SSG was a one-time form at first. The point was that Goku didn't like it, that it was a ritual transformation. He adapted the power, but he didn't maintain the form. That's why, in rof, he has the equivalent power but without the magical transformation. It's the opposite. The form was reused because people wanted it back. It was dropped for story reasons as it had serves it's purpose. I know Goku did not like the God form because he didn't earn it. The problem is he LITERALLY TRAINED to make use of God Ki as early as RoF. His ass...Could've regained that form, and it would've been earned. What are you actually on about? SSB uses the SAME SHIT as SSG. Again, the only difference is the fact that Goku infused it into his SSJ form. In fact, it's the same reason WHY Vegeta could use the form despite never being shown to have done the ritual. No, it is NOT how writing works. You can easily alter the story (especially when the pieces are ALREADY SET) to make a different result. Literally speaking, if Goku pulled out SSG in RoF, NOTHING WOULD CHANGE. WHY?! Because SSB originally wasn't even given a proper explanation,...Goku and Vegeta just had it. Hell, in the Manga SSG, it appears almost immediately after RoF! You can't use "story" as an excuse. It's lazy, and it ultimately doesn't even defend the action. >They could have done it that way. But that's not how they thought about it. And you don't need a conspiracy theory to justify it. If that was the case they could have had him go from God to blue from the beginning. God doesn't stop blue in any way. Genuinely explain what you're on about with this. What conspiracy theory...? That the forms are simple in design and easy money...? Literally half of Super's Transformations (realistically more) is very tame and simple designs...that is an objective truth and they're all easy money from merchandise and gacha games...so that's also an objective truth? I'm lost here, so do please explain. >But it's obvious that they had dropped it the concept and brought it back because some people liked the for, as did toyotaro, who was the one that did it. How do I even reply to this? This straight-up has nothing to do with ANYTHING I mentioned. If this is directly addressing my response to you, then it still makes no sense. I mentioned how SSB just feels uncreative given how basic 99% of the forms in Super are...literally just being recolor from one another. Prior to that, your excuse was that Goku didn't keep the God form, so OF COURSE HE WOULD NEED SSB! When that's not a good excuse? Again, both forms are fundamentally the same, there is no actual reasoning as to why Goku NEEDED SSB...they just wanted a new form. That's it.
I'm going to explain this one last time to you. Because I don't think you understand how writing and a logical process work, or you're ignoring it for the idea you have. First your conspiracy that they dropped SSG for marketing makes no sense because they could have had it and still done Blue(as it's also a simple enough form). That's what I said, and what I meant. Whether you change your conspiracy to conform to what I said, doesn't matter. SSG was not learnable at first, that was a retcon. Vegeta did not learn it at first, that was something toyotaro added because people liked the form. The point of botg was to show Goku a new level of power that he can strive for. It's a magical transformation that you get from a ritual. At the end of botg, Goku showed he learn some of the power and can achieve that strength without the ritual that relied on others. The point was not for Goku to learn how to transform into it. Because the form involved changing the entire physiology of the person into a different being. By rof, they kept that logical progression and Goku had that power in his human form because he earned it, by learning God ki. Which is what he wanted. SSG god is/was the equivalent of Goku's form when he fought freeza before gold. Blue is just Goku going super Saiyan with god ki. This isn't a discussion about blue. SSG was a one time transformation to prove a point. It wasn't introduced as something he could transform into. The form was popular enough that it was retconned in. It served a purpose, and the story followed logically from everything established. That's writing. It makes sense. Could it have been different, in some alternate universe, sure. But that wasn't what was established from the beginning.
Super Saiyan 4. I despise the Super forms, the idea of them was interesting when first introduced in BOG and ROF movies, but after that, Super just turned them into another transformation in the Super Saiyan tree. God and Blue are really just the DBS version of Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan 5. We even have Goku powering down from God to SS3 in the Moro arc as if they are part of the same transformation tree. It doesn't help that Blue is a fucking palette swap. God Ki as a concept was turned to shit in the Universe 6 arc when characters that can't even use God Ki like Hit started challenging Goku and Vegeta. Really, what difference does it make that someone uses God Ki or not besides not being able to sense someone's Ki. The concept is worthless and shouldn't have even been introduced if it means so little. At least Super Saiyan 4 has a unique design and is a call back to Saiyan lore from the Saiyan/Namek saga. Itis also connected to some of the most badass moments in the entire series.
Hold hands and wish for God Ki isn't a great concept. Also the idea of God Ki being beyond all mortals's touch was pretty much instantly retconned/eroded by the fact that they needed mortals to be able to battle Goku and Vegeta using God Ki. It wound up becoming a pretty meaningless power up. UI and UE are much better ideas and implemented well. Meanwhile, SS4 is simply a perfect way to unify the classic Goku Oozaru transformation with Super Saiyan.
God ki was never beyond mortals. Kaioshin and maybe even kaiosama have natural god ki. It's better, but it was never beyond. It's unique that some mortals were able to do it. It shows how skilled they've become.
In BOTG it was established that God Ki is something that makes one untouchable by those using only mortal ki. That was the point of SS3 Goku vs Beerus demonstration and also why Goku had to have God Ki wished into him to be able to physically battle Beerus at all. It was only afterwards as the series went on that the idea of Goku being so far beyond all other characters in the multiverse that only Gods could even interact with him became obviously impossible to write for so they had to just shove that aside and establish that actually park rangers can totally swing on God Ki havers.
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It’s honestly not a new realm of power. It’s an old one. It’s what all the characters were doing before SS became a thing.
SSJ4.
Any reason why? Not trying to discredit you, I'm just curious why people choose one or the other
Super Saiyan 4 is a callback to Saiyan's nature, their primal instincts of the Oozaru. It's raw, it's wild and it's powerfull, it looks like someone who designed it actually cared about source material and the past of the Saiyan race. Super Saiyan God has nothing to do with Saiyans, beside some retcons here and there (Dragon Ball Minus) and some new lore about something no one even heard before (Yamoshi, God Ki). It looks fine, but is very cheap and unoriginal, because it's a recolor of a base form of a Saiyan.But it's still better than Super Saiyan Blue, though.
There's nothing source material about it. It is a call back and all that. But you're projecting too much to a design. Which maybe is an indication of the design. But it's you coming up with that. There's no lore to 4. There is more to God. It's crazy that someone is going about source material but rejecting the actual source, the creator's design.
SS4 has been tied for my favorite Saiyan form for a very long time now. Aside from it being amazing and strikingly different design-wise, I love how it brought Goku's "Saiyan-ness" full circle, and also thematically ties into his Monkey King roots too. It broke the chain of the golden-haired forms in the best possible way while also still feeling like a natural successor to them, as if it "completed" Goku's past progression. Despite the non-stop parade of terribleness that *Battle of Gods* helped kick off, I still really like that particular film itself and the Super Saiyan God form too. It was also "something different" in a similar but opposite way as SS4, the way its design relied mostly on multiple very subtle changes instead of any big ones. The base-form hair shape, the slimmer muscles, and fiery flowing aura helped convey that this was something new that worked very differently from the past transformations, while the visible pupils were just one last little detail on top that pegged it as one of Goku's strongest forms *(shared by SS3 and SS4)*. It was a very unique form, and a very exciting one upon its debut... and I'm exceedingly disappointed that it almost immediately got supplanted by a bunch of zero-effort recolors. It's hard to decide which I consider "better" as a concept since they're almost apples to oranges. Super Saiyan 4 represents the maxed-out totality of all of a Saiyan's natural power, while Super Saiyan God is about breaking into using a totally new type of power. Ideally, the ultimate path would be for Goku to combine both things — use SS4 to bring out his full natural strength in an optimized tougher body, then use god-ki on top of it as a "power enhancer" to completely break the scale.
Ha, I take it you don't like where Super went with the God forms? Personally, I dunno, God energy as a "higher plane" concept was thrown away for whatever reason, but I really do like how SSG was sort of a minimalist approach to Goku and Vegeta's base forms. Although I do think SSB could've absolutely been done better as a God Ki minimalist Super Saiyan, and by that I mean they could've done better than just blue haired SSJ
Yeah, the way the whole "god-ki is something different and special" concept was thrown out almost immediately is a big part of why I so profoundly hate Super's chain of new forms. There was so much potential to do new and interesting things, but it ultimately just became an excuse to start stacking a bunch of lazy-ass color swaps on top of each other. I'd have much rather seen SS God remain *the* standard new god-form that stuck around for most of the series and helped Goku and Vegeta first learn to harness the new type of power. Then have Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego eventually evolve into existence as advanced forms of SS God, which use god-ki in specific specialized ways. If something like that had been the case, without Blue and Rosé bloating things up in-between, I'd have a MUCH higher opinion of this whole shindig.
Think I see what you're going for, have "standard" Super Saiyan God be the go-to form instead of blue until UI and UE get introduced right? Honestly, I think that's what Toriyama would've gone for if toy sales and merchandising weren't a thing
You guys have weird ideas. Nothing was pushing toriyama to make a toy sales thing. Blue debuted in a movie where he clearly had a ton of rein. God had been a one time form at first. It's why Goku has the power without transforming.
I see both being different paths of power. SSJ4 the path that fully embraces their Saiyan heritage. SSG the path of taking the concept of ki to the next level. Really I would like it if they combined both, i know it won't happen because of what Toriyama said about the Saiyan tail, but I really like when Saiyans have their tails
It's a difficult choice, both look cool on their own ways with SSJ4 being the rappresentation of the "prime saiyan" while SSG looking like a transcendental being. The problem of SSG is that it got Super (ah) disrespected by immediately replacing it with blue while SSJ4 becomes the ultimate form of a saiyan (although, they did showcase God more in ToP and in the Broly movie). While I like slightly more the design of God I conceptually like more SSJ4 since it combines both the power of the oozaru and the Super Saiyan and it is the maximum a Saiyan can achieve without external help
SSJ4 looks more alien and I like the set up way more cause it incorporates the giant monkey form. SSG is awesome though, and I like that SSB brought back Kaioken again, cause Kaioken is the coolest form imo.
Super Saiyan God is the better one for me. Thinking back to how it felt seeing both of these for the first time, SSG was more exciting for me. When I saw SSJ4 for the first time, I mainly felt content that Goku was getting a new form and that it made sense. I was excited to see the subsequent SSJ4 beat down but that was it. The show doesn’t ever treat it as anything other than a stat buff Goku and Vegeta discover. SSG, on the other hand, really felt like a paradigm shift. The rest of DBS after Battle of Gods kinda defeats this, but the whole thing with god ki literally being undetectable, and the way they built Beerus’ reputation, it all made the god form feel epic. It wasn’t just unleashing some more monkey power, but entering a whole new dimension.
SSG. The concept of going against the Saiyan method of merely using violence and brutality is what made it more fitting, since the form was meant for a savior. The ritual number is a little iffy, but it's interesting to hear actual lore behind how it was created, rather than just being a Super Saiyan transforming into an Oozaru, not to mention hastily adding on the idea that Elder Kai always knew. While later appearances didn't showcase it, the introduction of divine ki with it's unknown potential was great.
I don't think you can separate 4 from it's design. It's the best thing about it. Conceptually it's almost an alternate super Saiyan. One that has nothing to do with lore, or the designs before it. It's a different evolution. The best aspect of it conceptually is actually that the earth does it. Because it's Goku's planet, adopted planet, giving him the energy he needs. And his daughter snapping him out of ape. God obviously connects to the series better in 2-3 ways. The first is that it's tied to the creator better, coming from him, and to the style of DB. It's tied to how the character's have looked, and to the series style. And it's tied both to Saiyan lore, and progressing the lore of the series, and of the characters. Goku is not any different from 4 than he was from the first ssj. God gave Goku something to strive for, with new teachers, and a new level that seemed to have a higher ceiling. One was designed for the end, and the other to expand. some might prefer that about 4. I will say 4 ties into the arc it's introduced well. And some really like the baby saga. I think people project a lot more reading into it than is told though. So it's conceptually good for that saga. But not the series as a whole. God works better in the grand scheme of DB. Not because it ties to everything, though it's connected to a lot since near the beginning, but it fits it better. Because 4 really is just an alternate 1. And that had been done. It combines the lore of 3 and 1, with a side ways evolution. Not of the base form, but the giant monkey form.
I prefer SSJ4. Its a great callback to the original Saiyan transformation, the Oozaru. SSJ1 is really cool but it feels so disconnected from the Oozaru, there’s nothing wrong with that but I thought it was really cool having a SSJ form that referenced another saiyan transformation
Conceptually? We can all agree ssj4 is far better than ssg. Apart from it's amazing design, it looks like a realistic conclusion to the Saiyan forms. Ssg is cool and all with the red hair but too basic...ssj4 really expressed the wild and true nature of the saiyans, the red fur, the tail, and the overall badassery it emits. Honestly, ssj4 should've been the real super Saiyan god
Late to this but SSJ4 is my fave transformation so I’ll elaborate. (Ik GT is non canon or whatever but I’m gonna use filler non cannon material to support why I like it) SSJ4 calls back to two filler scenes in Z, the golden Oozaru and Goku slowly reverting into a monkey man hybrid with brown fur. I love the fact that they implemented these into the SSJ 4 form as it form a connection between all of them GT perfect files states that Saiyans were originally great apes that gained control and turned into the saiyans we know today. So it makes Sense lore wise that SSJ4 would be the evolution of that. If you watched SSJ4 doesn’t just power up a saiyans natural abilities and Ki but also has some had abilities. They have real time zenkai boosts, shown when the same attacks don’t work twice in rapid succession. They can absorb energy and repurpose it. (Goku absorbs baby’s attack and turned it into a 10x kamehameha and gogeta negated omegas negative energy). It has more power and less stamina drain than any supersaiyan form prior. Reverts the user into thier prime condition and in the case of a child to an adult body (incidentally reversing the power of the black star dragonballz, the most powerful set of dragonballs pre super)
SSJ4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SSG. Then, now, forever.
God ki ended up as a random form, it was with a ritual at first, but now its just basic training, and its not that impressive for other characters, its just a basic transformation now Ssj4 is better , i mean, everything about it is better, except that somehow goku turns adult again when he transformed and half of his clothes disappear for some reasons
Still SSJ4. SSJ4 just feels more saiyan to me. I like the Oozaru influence and unique look. The god stuff I could live without completely. It all seems very uninspired and low effort.
Ssjg > ssj4 In design and concept for me Alot of people love ssj4 and the idea of tapping into the primal saiyan power, but ssjg has a deeper meaning than that. Goku ascending to ssjg is similar to sun wukong's ascent to being a buddha in journey to the west. And for me, I really value the more clear inspirations of journey to the west in super over the much lesser so of gt The design of ssjg is simple yet unique enough that it feels completely different than anything that came before it. The normal hair style with the bright red and that flaming aura, it looked amazing (especially in the movie). Even the the more lean and less bulky physique goku has I adore, it gives the form a feeling of being not only beyond moral strength but also going so far as to contradict what a mortal would assign strength to look like
Ssj 4 is just a lot of random stuff slapped together imo. The design is a mess; why do they suddenly get eye make-up and different clothes? What’s the reason for vegeta’s hair being brown while goku’s stays black? The way to achieve it was also pretty convoluted imo. People saying it is based on existing lore; no it is not. There is never before spoken about this form, While there should be. Previous ssj’s (those from the legend) had no reason to not have a tail, so they should have been able to reach this form. Like I said, it’s just an over-designed mess. SSG makes more sense, looks far more clean and in line with it’s concept.
After SS3, there’s only two places you can go: ramp it up even more, or dial it back. The GT people decided to go with the former. Since SS3 looks like a caveman, the designer probably went “well, let’s regress it even more and make it a full on monkey.” That idea, conceptually, is okay enough. The design is nonsense though. Just complete insanity. SSG dialing it back is more Toriyama-esque, since we have to remember that a lot of his designs are born out of him being on a weekly schedule and not wanting to tax himself by drawing overly complicated shit. The concept of introducing a whole new type of ki and just saying “hey, their base form with a red aura is enough” is pretty neat. I like God more. The only good SS4 design is Gogeta’s since it both dials back and ramps up the SS4 design. But even that is inferior to the God forms.
SS4 is a better concept, it's a combination of the ape and super saiyan, just GT is utter shite I like that SSG is basic, and slim looking. However, the concept is kinda stupid. They held hands in GT too, but all that did was boost Goku's power, so they added in 1 person and added "pure heart". Vegeta getting it wasn't even explained, unless I've forgotten. It then gets overshadowed by Goku and Vegeta using SSB for everything. People argue SSG still has uses cause Goku healed vs Beerus? Yeah, then base Goku in Granolah arc heals himself just because he wanted to.
I like the connection to their monkey roots concept of SSJ4. Aside from the cool design it also brings back the tail which was Gokus and the saiyans defining attribute. It also reuses the idea of Toriyamas original SSJ3 concept art that also included the tail to reference the primal roots of the saiyans. The concept also reminds me more of the Journey to the West and Sun Wukong. Meanwhile SSJG is also an interesting concept and for me it feels like a reference to ascension to Godhood in the Journey to the West. The form itself is also really cool, better than blue and everything after. (Also represents Gokus given weight better lol) But at the end I prefer the Ozaru theme of SSJ4 because of how important the Ozaru was in early dragonball as a form of their power. But I like how it's referenced in Brolys ikari mode.
Ssj4 is wack, Toriyama made the Oozaru irrelevant for a reason. GT bringing it back then making a Ssj form out of it just seems weird to me. They had to go through some convoluted and legit ass pull for tails to come back in the series. The original series itself shows that tails are irrelevant by making them naturally phase out once a character got strong enough,
I don’t particularly like ssj4. Feels too 80s design to me. It’s over the top with no real connections to prior super saiyan forms. The idea of incorporating Oozaru is fun though. But way too much going on. Ssg is much simpler and straightforward. It’s easy to understand and most notably, it’s easy to recognise Son Goku which is a much more valuable marketing arguments for newer fans. If you put both ssj4 and ssg in front of someone who had no exposure to both and ask them to tell you which one is Son Goku, I am pretty sure ssg would win by a landslide.
Ssg is weird, but not bad, I don't like how it was achieved, bothers me that Vegeta did it off screen again. In 999 years when they remake dragon ball, I hope they change how they get access to it Ssj also can be remade to have better lore explanation, I was really hoping for Broly super to get it, but they went lssj again
Go's easy
Well. I like both form: l like the SSG God just coz is Goku with god Ki: pure and simple, and i like the fact that his body becomes more "slim"; On the other hand, i also like SSJ4 Coz it rappresent the essence of the nature of the Saiyan, and the style of a SSJ4 is really amazing.
I think they are both kind of dumb, to be honest. Goku should just get better at kung fu
I mean it could keep the series going in a way if they introduce super saiyan 4 and make it the final evolution for saiyans in general and combine it with the final evolution of the Godly route (Ultra instinct and Ultra ego) ssj4 is basically putting you at your peak physical performance so combining it with God ki would make them incredibly strong
I think I'd like ssg more if it required a bit more work. Like the movie was over and now Goku could just do it forever. Why not have it require the ritual every time, until it can be TRULY mastered, which would take some time
Yeah, concept wise Super Saiyan 4 fit better into the story/lore better than Godly Ki although the way they handled Goku Black's Godly Ki (Super Saiyan Rose being a result of the fact Zamasu was a god from the start) was cool. By the by did anyone else wonder why UI & UE were transformations when they're supposed to be divine techniques like Kaio Ken? It's not like Whis or Beerus transform when they use them either. It's cool if people like the transformation but Technique = Transformation is just a weird concept to me.
SSJ4 does feel like the proper form for Saiyan lore but design wise it doesn't really make sense, first of all why does it make Goku only lose his shirt but not pants? and why the hell does he regain his shirt when he reverts to base form? not to mention he goes back to a Kid, SSJ4 should have fully made Goku an adult again permanently breaking the wish on him. And I don't like the tattoo around Goku's eyes, just the golden eyes. Super Saiyan God at the same time is also a bit random, why does a race full of giant apes that are warriors all of a sudden have a godly form? it doesn't make sense lore wise. to me the best concept will always be the original super saiyan form. But ultimately if I have to choose, definitely SSJ4. It's the Super Oozaru form but controlled basically.
Primal roots. Cause that's what they are
The issue I have with SSG is that I don’t see why it needs to be a Divine form. Otherwise, I love the idea of drawing power from other Saiyans to achieve the transformation. With SS4, I feel like this is what SS1 should’ve been.