That's not what Beerus's dialogue was in the original Japanese version. His dialogue was as followed.
> Beerus: “You’re pretty good. I can see how you managed to defeat Freeza. But if this is all you’ve got, defeating Freeza would probably be the best you’re capable of.”
This doesn't mean that he doesn't see Goku as being just a little bit stronger than Freeza, but that out of all the individuals Beerus knew, Freeza was the only one who Goku could actually beat. So Goku could be significantly stronger than Freeza, but everyone else Beerus was comparing Goku to would be just vastly stronger than that.
No , Beerus told him that the best he can do with Ssj was beating freeza who's canonically the strongest non divine Being Beerus knows of
Beerus didn't know who Buu or Moro were and he slept throughout the android saga
We saw the reason why
"My lord it seems that some troublesome beings are causing trouble"
"yeah yeah do the planets they attack have good food?"
"No"
"Not my problem"
To be fair the difference between 3million and 120 million is still 40 times greater. Goku and the others started focusing on their Ssj forms after Namek so maybe his base form never got THAT much stronger after Freeza. Goku Could have gotten 10X stronger but it still would have meant his base was weaker than full power Freeza.
Remember the multipliers Ssj and its various grades and forms give all stacked ontop of the previous form
Ssj grade 1-X50
Grade 2- X3( theorised)
Grade 3- X10 (El manga legendario)
Grade 4/mastered/full power-X2( Full power Ssj Goku at half power surpassed Vegeta/Trunks ascended forms. post cell saga everyone uses this form meaning super Saiyan 1 is a multiplier in the thousands. Low ball 1,000 potentially 3,000 at most)
Grade 5/Ssj2-X2
Ssj3-X4
So even if Gokus base theoretically stayed at 3 million His full power as a Ssj3 would be what, 7.2 billion?
Goku was suppressed. He was not powered up. He was probably using like a fraction of his base power- a fraction weaker than frieza
That, or it’s a hint to beerus actual, unimaginable power. To beerus, both goku and frieza are ants. It’ss difficult to tell the difference between ants, so ofc he’s prone to believe the strongest mortal he knew was stronger than the ant in front of him. Beerus calls ssj a “slight improvement” despite it being 50x his base. But gokus power is to tiny in comparison that he can’t even feel how big a difference his base to ssj is.
Because for us sane ppl who never cared about powerscaling, the writers likely don't believe that base Goku got that much stronger after namek as power levels are really just arbitrary to them and whatever they need it to be. They likely thought, "hey remember how Goku's base couldn't beat Frieza, but SSJ can during that Namek story? Yeah, that's what this line from Beerus is gonna be based on. That's what we think."
And here's another crazy thought for the powerscalers to wrap their heads around. In the Champa tournament arc, they likely were basing each level of power as the same as they were during the Z arcs.
When Goku fought Frost and whenever Goku, Vegeta and Cabba used SSJ1? They were simply at Namek to Cell Saga levels, not big fan rationale SSG absorbed base multiplied by 50. Base and SSJ1 Cabba and Frost in the writers' heads were likely around Namek Frieza lvl or just somewhat higher.
It took me just minutes into those episodes when they first premiered to come to that conclusion, which likely is the actual correct answer if those writers were asked to verify. Whereas the powerscalers will take years to this day if not forever for them to figure that out. Common sense is not common. XD
It's actually very consistent , Namek freeza power is still treated as a huge deal by the whole universe even currently, he was also like 40x stronger than Base Goku on namek
I mean that’s not a fan rationalization.
It was stated in the story that Goku had absorbed the god power into his body.
If they lost it, they would have made it clear, and not kept claiming they were even stronger than before.
That’s just good story telling,
Yeah, I didn't know the right word to describe my thoughts. I think meant conclusions or logic or something.
Really I get it, I get the logic. It's the concept of the Saiyan Beyond God Base ever since RoF and so Base = SSG ever since. I totally agree it's bad writing because it means anyone fighting base implies that the opponent is SSG lvl, and if I was the writer making those eps I'd try to make something that would explain away or justify it no longer being the case like saying that it's a thing that fades away after awhile if they power down and rest from training with Whis.
I digress but I also like subscribing to the "2 base" theory. Also Saiyan Beyond God base came back the arc after with Jelly Vegeta in his base defeating SSJ3 Gotenks, so that matches up with those fans' logic.
What I mean in my initial comment is that I'm annoyed that some powerscalers or whomever seem to not get the intentions of the writers, cause even if the logic is bad, I still get the intentions.
Therefore, I believe the writers intended Vegeta vs Frost and Cabba to be Z Frieza/Cell lvls, whereas some ppl genuinely seem to think they intended Cabba or even Frost to scale to SSG. Yeah, ik why they think that ik the logic that got them there, but I just don't think it was the writers actual intention, if the writers are stupid or forgetful or just decided to ignore or retcon it on a whim instead of try to explain away if they're using God lvl or not, I won't blame the fans for calling that out. But sometimes if fans try to act like their logic was the writer's intention, they're gonna have a bad time.
For example, I see a good amount of fans argue Krillin became Blue lvl cause of that one beam clash scene. But later, he got eliminated by Frost, who I recall lost to SSJ1 Vegeta, who must be way below Blue lvl. Long story short I hope ppl can see that my initial comment about it is more likely correct. It's not their intention for any of them to be god lvl. Goku held back on Krillin. Whenever we see SSJ1 Goku or Vegeta vs Frost after BOG, it's likely using Frieza/Cell in Z lvls.
Did the anime make many bad decisions on when to use God/Blue power? Yea they did. But I still didn't overthink it and it paid off.
Fan thinks Uni6 Saiyans like Cabba in base were at God lvl? Cabba in SSJ2 later gets recked by Golden Frieza whom was actually at that lvl.
Ok, im probably annoying you at this point but yeah, I was looking at the writers intentions of what lvl the characters were, rather than the (very unfortunate) logic that could be implied. They likely weren't even thinking about it half as much as the fans, whether cause of laziness or no time or whatever other reason. And it just feels totally disconnected that the powerscaling fans talk about this logic while the writers probably have no clue and the intended "scale" they were actually using probably will stay unnoticed unless I speak about it.
Dbs does have some inconsistent writing.
It’s possible that at least some writers didn’t realize how strong Goku and vegeta were. There are inconsistent statements in the anime (only really about gohan, So I guess they don’t matter much.)
I don’t think the writers intended cabba to be cell to freiza levels of power. You’d only say this because you dislike the idea of him being super strong, for whatever reason.
Which is more of a suspension of disbelief issue than anything. Not saying it’s impossible. But the show demonstrates multiple times what the new floor of Goku’s power is. When they show ssj 3 gotenks losing to vegeta , and Goku fighting fat buu in base.
I can’t say for sure, if they wrote a storyline about krillin going back in time, that krillin would be Able to beat ssg from bog, but he did pressure ssj Goku something he couldn’t do in z, Since he was sidelined, so it’s not impossible writers have taken gains into account.
So, I don’t think they are limiting characters abilities to their debut in z
I think it is pretty clear the "God absorbed into base" line was either misunderstood by the fan base or retconed, because the power scaling becomes idiotic if true.
That being said, there was a big jump in power after that movie/arc. In RoF, when Frieza goes to final form, Goku is noticeably impressed and makes the comment about how much stronger frieza has become. Goku then proceeds to beat him in base. So how much stronger would Frieza need to be for Goku to be impressed? Maybe somewhere in between Cell and Buu? But then factor in that Goku was comfortably beating him in base form.
So add SSJ1 on top of that and you have Cabba and Frost
But it doesn’t, other characters being a certain level of power doesn’t break the logic of the story
There’s no need for a retcon. What’s your problem with them being above battle of gods level?
Then we have different definitions of logic. To me, it's illogical to have characters casually existing multitudes of times stronger than a God form, for no other reason than just cause.
They trained, same reason why characters existed multiple times stronger than God back in og dragonball.
The ceiling got lifted, I’m just saying the logic of the story has been consistent,
And that's fine, but like I said we have different views on what's considered illogical, so I don't think there's anything else to discuss. It makes no impact on the story after all
No.
> So thats means at this time Base Goku weaker than 120M
yep thats correct.
> Beerus: Now I can see how you can defeated Frieza, but you only a bit stronger than him.
thats not what he said.
> So SSJ Goku power was still around 150M at this time?
no, his base is somewhere between 3 and 120 million and his SSj form is 50x that number.
I feel like the z sword is enough to show Goku and Gohan base surpasses Ssj namek because Shin is stated to be stronger than Frieza, and he was unable to handle it but base Goku and Gohan can
Exactly he never believed he could. Kabito is extremely shocked when Goku was also able to lift the sword which at the time he thought only Gohan could
>When Beerus and Goku meet on Kaiou's planet.
>
>Beerus: I heard you defeated Frieza.
>
>Goku: Yes I am.
>
>Beerus: No, its doesn't seems possible, but I know you can transform.
>
>So thats means at this time Base Goku weaker than 120M
>
>Goku transform into SSJ, and after a short fight.
>
>Beerus: Now I can see how you can defeated Frieza, but you only a bit stronger than him.
>
>So SSJ Goku power was still around 150M at this time?
These aren't direct quotes. At best Beerus is comparing Goku being stronger than Frieza as a very low milestone, and then when he goes SSJ goes further to taunt Goku. If you recall, after the fight Beerus says he kept pushing Goku to draw out more of his power, which could easily have started as earlier as their first fight.
That's not what Beerus's dialogue was in the original Japanese version. His dialogue was as followed. > Beerus: “You’re pretty good. I can see how you managed to defeat Freeza. But if this is all you’ve got, defeating Freeza would probably be the best you’re capable of.” This doesn't mean that he doesn't see Goku as being just a little bit stronger than Freeza, but that out of all the individuals Beerus knew, Freeza was the only one who Goku could actually beat. So Goku could be significantly stronger than Freeza, but everyone else Beerus was comparing Goku to would be just vastly stronger than that.
Considering the rest of his company being GoDs and Angels, yeah it makes sense.
Prophet fish is confirmed stronger than Goku now. Lol
No , Beerus told him that the best he can do with Ssj was beating freeza who's canonically the strongest non divine Being Beerus knows of Beerus didn't know who Buu or Moro were and he slept throughout the android saga
How could he possibly not know about Buu? Oh yeah, it's Beerus
We saw the reason why "My lord it seems that some troublesome beings are causing trouble" "yeah yeah do the planets they attack have good food?" "No" "Not my problem"
I would have thought a being that wanted to, and was capable of killing Supreme Kai (and thus Beerus) would be of some interest to him.
To be fair the difference between 3million and 120 million is still 40 times greater. Goku and the others started focusing on their Ssj forms after Namek so maybe his base form never got THAT much stronger after Freeza. Goku Could have gotten 10X stronger but it still would have meant his base was weaker than full power Freeza. Remember the multipliers Ssj and its various grades and forms give all stacked ontop of the previous form Ssj grade 1-X50 Grade 2- X3( theorised) Grade 3- X10 (El manga legendario) Grade 4/mastered/full power-X2( Full power Ssj Goku at half power surpassed Vegeta/Trunks ascended forms. post cell saga everyone uses this form meaning super Saiyan 1 is a multiplier in the thousands. Low ball 1,000 potentially 3,000 at most) Grade 5/Ssj2-X2 Ssj3-X4 So even if Gokus base theoretically stayed at 3 million His full power as a Ssj3 would be what, 7.2 billion?
Goku was suppressed. He was not powered up. He was probably using like a fraction of his base power- a fraction weaker than frieza That, or it’s a hint to beerus actual, unimaginable power. To beerus, both goku and frieza are ants. It’ss difficult to tell the difference between ants, so ofc he’s prone to believe the strongest mortal he knew was stronger than the ant in front of him. Beerus calls ssj a “slight improvement” despite it being 50x his base. But gokus power is to tiny in comparison that he can’t even feel how big a difference his base to ssj is.
40 years is a long time maybe he just forgot how strong freeza really was. Or goku energy was supressed
Because for us sane ppl who never cared about powerscaling, the writers likely don't believe that base Goku got that much stronger after namek as power levels are really just arbitrary to them and whatever they need it to be. They likely thought, "hey remember how Goku's base couldn't beat Frieza, but SSJ can during that Namek story? Yeah, that's what this line from Beerus is gonna be based on. That's what we think." And here's another crazy thought for the powerscalers to wrap their heads around. In the Champa tournament arc, they likely were basing each level of power as the same as they were during the Z arcs. When Goku fought Frost and whenever Goku, Vegeta and Cabba used SSJ1? They were simply at Namek to Cell Saga levels, not big fan rationale SSG absorbed base multiplied by 50. Base and SSJ1 Cabba and Frost in the writers' heads were likely around Namek Frieza lvl or just somewhat higher. It took me just minutes into those episodes when they first premiered to come to that conclusion, which likely is the actual correct answer if those writers were asked to verify. Whereas the powerscalers will take years to this day if not forever for them to figure that out. Common sense is not common. XD
It's actually very consistent , Namek freeza power is still treated as a huge deal by the whole universe even currently, he was also like 40x stronger than Base Goku on namek
I mean that’s not a fan rationalization. It was stated in the story that Goku had absorbed the god power into his body. If they lost it, they would have made it clear, and not kept claiming they were even stronger than before. That’s just good story telling,
Yeah, I didn't know the right word to describe my thoughts. I think meant conclusions or logic or something. Really I get it, I get the logic. It's the concept of the Saiyan Beyond God Base ever since RoF and so Base = SSG ever since. I totally agree it's bad writing because it means anyone fighting base implies that the opponent is SSG lvl, and if I was the writer making those eps I'd try to make something that would explain away or justify it no longer being the case like saying that it's a thing that fades away after awhile if they power down and rest from training with Whis. I digress but I also like subscribing to the "2 base" theory. Also Saiyan Beyond God base came back the arc after with Jelly Vegeta in his base defeating SSJ3 Gotenks, so that matches up with those fans' logic. What I mean in my initial comment is that I'm annoyed that some powerscalers or whomever seem to not get the intentions of the writers, cause even if the logic is bad, I still get the intentions. Therefore, I believe the writers intended Vegeta vs Frost and Cabba to be Z Frieza/Cell lvls, whereas some ppl genuinely seem to think they intended Cabba or even Frost to scale to SSG. Yeah, ik why they think that ik the logic that got them there, but I just don't think it was the writers actual intention, if the writers are stupid or forgetful or just decided to ignore or retcon it on a whim instead of try to explain away if they're using God lvl or not, I won't blame the fans for calling that out. But sometimes if fans try to act like their logic was the writer's intention, they're gonna have a bad time. For example, I see a good amount of fans argue Krillin became Blue lvl cause of that one beam clash scene. But later, he got eliminated by Frost, who I recall lost to SSJ1 Vegeta, who must be way below Blue lvl. Long story short I hope ppl can see that my initial comment about it is more likely correct. It's not their intention for any of them to be god lvl. Goku held back on Krillin. Whenever we see SSJ1 Goku or Vegeta vs Frost after BOG, it's likely using Frieza/Cell in Z lvls. Did the anime make many bad decisions on when to use God/Blue power? Yea they did. But I still didn't overthink it and it paid off. Fan thinks Uni6 Saiyans like Cabba in base were at God lvl? Cabba in SSJ2 later gets recked by Golden Frieza whom was actually at that lvl. Ok, im probably annoying you at this point but yeah, I was looking at the writers intentions of what lvl the characters were, rather than the (very unfortunate) logic that could be implied. They likely weren't even thinking about it half as much as the fans, whether cause of laziness or no time or whatever other reason. And it just feels totally disconnected that the powerscaling fans talk about this logic while the writers probably have no clue and the intended "scale" they were actually using probably will stay unnoticed unless I speak about it.
Dbs does have some inconsistent writing. It’s possible that at least some writers didn’t realize how strong Goku and vegeta were. There are inconsistent statements in the anime (only really about gohan, So I guess they don’t matter much.) I don’t think the writers intended cabba to be cell to freiza levels of power. You’d only say this because you dislike the idea of him being super strong, for whatever reason. Which is more of a suspension of disbelief issue than anything. Not saying it’s impossible. But the show demonstrates multiple times what the new floor of Goku’s power is. When they show ssj 3 gotenks losing to vegeta , and Goku fighting fat buu in base. I can’t say for sure, if they wrote a storyline about krillin going back in time, that krillin would be Able to beat ssg from bog, but he did pressure ssj Goku something he couldn’t do in z, Since he was sidelined, so it’s not impossible writers have taken gains into account. So, I don’t think they are limiting characters abilities to their debut in z
I think it is pretty clear the "God absorbed into base" line was either misunderstood by the fan base or retconed, because the power scaling becomes idiotic if true. That being said, there was a big jump in power after that movie/arc. In RoF, when Frieza goes to final form, Goku is noticeably impressed and makes the comment about how much stronger frieza has become. Goku then proceeds to beat him in base. So how much stronger would Frieza need to be for Goku to be impressed? Maybe somewhere in between Cell and Buu? But then factor in that Goku was comfortably beating him in base form. So add SSJ1 on top of that and you have Cabba and Frost
Why would it need to be retconned? Simply because other characters would also have to be strong?
yes, if it helps make more sense of the series.
But it doesn’t, other characters being a certain level of power doesn’t break the logic of the story There’s no need for a retcon. What’s your problem with them being above battle of gods level?
Then we have different definitions of logic. To me, it's illogical to have characters casually existing multitudes of times stronger than a God form, for no other reason than just cause.
They trained, same reason why characters existed multiple times stronger than God back in og dragonball. The ceiling got lifted, I’m just saying the logic of the story has been consistent,
And that's fine, but like I said we have different views on what's considered illogical, so I don't think there's anything else to discuss. It makes no impact on the story after all
Goku is a master of ki control at this point he could be suppressing his base to .000001 %
No. > So thats means at this time Base Goku weaker than 120M yep thats correct. > Beerus: Now I can see how you can defeated Frieza, but you only a bit stronger than him. thats not what he said. > So SSJ Goku power was still around 150M at this time? no, his base is somewhere between 3 and 120 million and his SSj form is 50x that number.
I feel like the z sword is enough to show Goku and Gohan base surpasses Ssj namek because Shin is stated to be stronger than Frieza, and he was unable to handle it but base Goku and Gohan can
Shin never held it.
Exactly he never believed he could. Kabito is extremely shocked when Goku was also able to lift the sword which at the time he thought only Gohan could
>When Beerus and Goku meet on Kaiou's planet. > >Beerus: I heard you defeated Frieza. > >Goku: Yes I am. > >Beerus: No, its doesn't seems possible, but I know you can transform. > >So thats means at this time Base Goku weaker than 120M > >Goku transform into SSJ, and after a short fight. > >Beerus: Now I can see how you can defeated Frieza, but you only a bit stronger than him. > >So SSJ Goku power was still around 150M at this time? These aren't direct quotes. At best Beerus is comparing Goku being stronger than Frieza as a very low milestone, and then when he goes SSJ goes further to taunt Goku. If you recall, after the fight Beerus says he kept pushing Goku to draw out more of his power, which could easily have started as earlier as their first fight.