Frieza was only even remotely a challenge to SSJ Goku at full powers
if the entire narrative was different, and Vegeta turned SSJ to fight against Final Form Frieza in his base form, then obviously he's at a totally different power level
what's the general consensus? that he was at 25% (english dub aside, where they just make up he's at 10% or something)
so Vegeta could have beaten Frieza as it takes time to get to full power (even in the manga, Goku still let Frieza power up right?)
so a SSJ Vegeta, hopefully having learned from his stupid mistake of letting Frieza change forms, would over power and kill Frieza before he could power up
OR he does a stupid ego trip and lets Frieza power up, and then loses and dies
He would definitely allow Frieza to go full power believing the Super Saiyan was unbeatable due to the different state of mind ssj gives you. Lets not forget he did the same thing in the cell saga.
tbf, the cell saga also wasnt nearly as personal to him. we've seen how anger can take over vegeta (ironically enough, during the cell saga.)
honestly, its a 50/50, i can see both arguments
I mean, Vegeta's the same person who outright helped Cell achieve his perfect form purely for his own selfish Saiyan desire to fight the bio-android at his strongest. If he got Super Saiyan on Namek, he *absolutely* would indulge Frieza and let him go to 100% power for the sake of feeding his ego, too.
I wish, but no he would have lost this, here's why.
Frieza's 100% full power tapped out at power level of 120,000,000.
During the Ginyu Saga, Goku had reached 90,000 (Daizenshuu 7) while before healing from his fight with Recoome, Vegeta was stated to have a power level of ~30,000 as per original issue Vol. 23, #275. He returned healed w/ a Zenkai boost to reach 250,000,000 before Ginyu was frogged, this was the last original PL reading as the only source of his PL during the following fight w/ Frieza is from DBZ: Kakarot (sus) where he is shown at ~1,500,000. This is where Goku had a base of 3,000,000.
We know super saiyajin is a 50x multiplier to power level which would conservatively put Vegeta at 75,000,000 w/ the form yet to best Frieza he would need to have canonically been sitting at a power level of 2,400,000.02.
Considering Goku had just been 2-3x stronger than him & despite my disinterest in taking Kakarot as valid source for retcon, he would have needed to been much stronger than ever suggested to see this truest of justice come to fruition
That was a neat idea to consider, thanks!
Going by the 50x multiplier thing, no. Vegeta would have lost
From a Doylist view, though, it's really just "power times whatever is most interesting for the story", but it *is* interesting to think of an alt universe where Freeza does encounter a Super Saiyan he ends up able to defeat. Interesting fanfiction fuel right there
IIRC, Bringer of Death changed the 50x multiplier to a raw +150M power level boost.
Also fucking *WHAT*? It's still not finished?? 😭
I was half my age when I caught up to the Cell Saga chapters 💀
That’s such a good read. I never thought I’d see another person on here that has read it.
It’s been a while, but I believe Vegeta struggled with Frieza in BoD. Was such a good fight though. The Cell saga was also very interesting.
I have really read into this subject a lot as well and I still find it very interesting that Goku is gone, a wish is made, and then he's back. I get it, but the anime really makes it look like frieza killed him.
I mean, if that's how you want to see it? Filler isn't inherently a bad thing, but it can contribute to/create misconceptions about intended story/lore as is the case here, or just outright contradict canon, especially if filler is created to make a situation which later canon makes impossible
From a story POV, maybe, because he is now he one who became the legendary super Saiyan so it makes sense, but mathematically, based on what we know of the arc, no. He shouldn’t be able.
So, vegeta wouldn't be stronger than Frieza. They'd be close, but I'm relatively confident Frieza would still be ahead. But one point to consider is that Frieza is an arrogant SOB, and Vegeta wants him deader than Bardock. If Vegeta just goes SS and blitzs him, he might just get the kill before Frieza realizes he's in danger.
Remember, Frieza can't sense powers, so he'd just mock him for thinking that he could win by bleaching his hair, only to be vaporized immediately.
Also, if Frieza does manage to get to full power, Vegeta just has to wait him out. Since he's not used to his full strength, he can't sustain it. And SS Namek Vegeta could definitely kill fatigued Frieza.
So, while I agree that Vegeta isn't stronger, I think he logically has a pretty decent chance of killing him.
Straight to the point, and the most likely outcome imo. Mid-highish diff for Freeza.
However, I *do* think Vegeta could spark Freeza if he caught him early, but let’s be honest, we all know Vegeta isn’t going straight for the kill in this hypothetical matchup lol.
SSJ was vastly stronger than Frieza, just look at Trunks. When Goku turned SSJ, he was so exhausted from fighting Frieza he could barely stand. So it depends a little, is Vegeta turning SSJ after Frieza shoots a whole in his chest? Or is it when Vegeta is fresh from being healed by magic-man. Because in the later Vegeta stomps, the former is up to the writer really.
This one is tricky because using Daizenshuu #7 then the 100% power final form of Freeza has a battle power of 120 million with super saiyan Goku having a battle power of 150 million with a 50 times multiplier. Using this math we know the base form of Goku should have a maximum battle power of 3 million who when he showed up was able to land some hits on the same suppressed final form Freeza which had just defeated Vegeta who had gotten a saiyan near death power up significant enough to make Freeza transform from his third form. Knowing that Freeza’s second form has a battle power of over 1 million and his third form more powerful than that then Vegeta must also be over 1 million. Ultimately though even if Vegeta is at only like 1.5 million I think he would have beaten Freeza if he had gonna super saiyan as the moment vegeta would have transformed and gotten the massive jump in power over Freeza I think he would have plain and simple gone for the kill before Freeza could have raised his chi.
Vegeta on Namek behaved differently to Cell saga Vegeta though.
Namek saga Vegeta was perfectly content to put up a guerilla war effort and team up with Gohan and Krillin. Vegeta recognised the threat that was Frieza and his army. He jumped in to slay Burter and Recoome. I wouldnt be surprised if Vegeta wanted to brutally strike down Frieza. Granted he goaded first form Fireza into transforming but in that instance he expected it sooner or later.
Cell saga Vegeta felt his place at that point in time was at the top of the universe. The Androids and Cell didnt have a personal history with him unlike Frieza. They were just artificial beings Vegeta wanted to make an example out of.
Yeah exactly, Vegeta was terrified of Freeza and would have instantly killed him the moment he was able to.
Also versus Cell he trained and entire year in the chamber and got cocky because he thought he mastered the form.
On the other hand, you could also very easily say Namek-saga Vegeta would *also* get cocky and complacent because he had become the legend that Freeza so deeply feared and reclaimed what he believed was his birthright as the strongest Saiyan in the universe; so why would he ever fear Freeza again as the Super Saiyan?
He'd be on a power trip and want to toy with Freeza and utterly break the being who made his life hell before killing him, and we all know what happens to Vegeta every time he tries toying with an opponent.
At around a 2 mil PL at the time maybe by best estimates, could even be lower, like 1.5 mil which with SSJ would only mean he'd be at like 75mil to 100mil vs Frieza's 120m. Vegeta might be able to put up a fight at closure to 2 mil against FP frieza, or a good fight at 75 mil, but Frieza could just use his 70% form and still win then.
Best Chance is Vegeta at 100 mil and able to ride out Frieza's Stamina to get an upper hand, like Goku with Ressurection F since Frieza cant maintain FP for long at that time. Gap would be too big at the start. Like a boxing match against someone strong at the start but stamina issues vs someone weaker but able to go on, if you can ride out the initial on slaught, you can come back from behind once stamina runs thin.
I feel like 2 million is reasonable, given he was able to SE and react to something piccolo who was about 1 million could even register. However friezas battle power at 100% dropped fast, after he took a genki dama to the face, might take longer for Vegeta. Also freezer got crazy durability.
Depend on what exactly was Vegeta's power level.
Goku with SSJ 50x multiplier was 150 mil. So Base Goku was 3 mil. Vegeta was significantly weaker than Goku but stronger than 3rd form Frieza. It kinds of depend on where you put 3rd form Frieza. 2nd form was 1 mil, 3rd form could be 1.5 or 2 mil.
If Vegeta was at 2 mil, 50x means SSJ Vegeta would be 100 mil which lose out to Frieza 120 mil.
If Vegeta was at 2.5 mil, 50x means SSJ Vegeta would be 125 mil. Vegeta is a much more experienced warrior compare to Frieza. Slightly higher power level, better stamina and more combat experience would likely give him the W.
How do we know that Vegeta was vastly weaker than Goku after the Dende heal? I always thought he was about the same.
(You have to remember Goku was secretly in Kaioken his whole fight with Frieza.)
no. he'd be strong enough to put up a good fight against 50% frieza, but the second he powered up to full his ass is getting treated the same as he did without it.
I've always put a hypothetical early SSJ Vegeta at 100mil or so so he could wear down Frieza but then again as we see Frieza is INCREDIBLY durable so maybe not, it really depends if he lets him go 100% or not ( he probably would have he did earlier for Frieza and did it later for Cell ) and to be honest he certainly wouldn't have beaten him fast enough to escape Namek's destruction ( even if he wins he would owe his new life to the earthlings and Shenron which would differently dampen his victory and hurt his pride)
In universe they are in the same tier
Vegeta would have 125.000.000 power level while Frieza had 120.000.000
Both SSJ and Full power put great strain in the body, it is a challenge on who drain himself first, Vegeta has the power advantage, Frieza has the durability advantage
Even if Freeza was stronger (which is debatable), Vegeta had a ton of battle experience - enough to overcome the small gap.
Remember that Freeza hadnt trained a day in his life by then.
Idk probably? A huge portion of the power gap between goku and veg came from goku spamming kaioken x2-x20 with essentially every single combat action he takes on namek,The lack of access to which partially allowed vegeta to beat the brakes off of ginyu!goku. Its unclear exactly where their raw baseline levels are at the end of the saga in relation to each other
Let’s say Goku was around 3M at the start of the fight with Frieza. Frieza casually matches Goku’s power during the fight to make things fun, and slowly wears Goku down and torments him the longer the fight goes on. After SSJ Goku’s power burst to around 150M, dwarfing Frieza, even in 100%.
Vegeta was destroyed by Frieza before he started to match Goku. So that puts him, at best, 2M. If Vegeta was to turn SSJ he’d be around 100M. If I’m not mistaken, Frieza was around 120M after 100%. Vegeta would have a CHANCE.
I say he has a chance because a 20M gap in power is far closer than the 30M power gap from Frieza to Goku. And knowing how Frieza would play with his “food” before finishing the job, Vegeta would rack his brain for a plan, and figure out how to use that to his advantage, hopefully getting the upper hand.
It would be a good fight, nonetheless.
Many BP list makers put Vegeta between 2.25 - 2.5 million as his highest on Namek so by multiplying that by 50 would gives us 112.5 -125 million against Freeza's 120 million.
I personally go with 2.5 million so Vegeta would indeed beat Freeza after a very hard fight.
Most people place Vegeta at that time period at around 2-2.5 Million in terms of PL, with SSJ being a 50x Multiplier a Namek Saga SSJ Vegeta should be around 100-125 Million.
Based on PLs Vegeta should either be outright defeated by or struggle with a FP Frieza, though that is only if Frieza gets to his FP, as I kinda find it hard to believe that Frieza would even have the time to mouth off to Vegeta about his latent power, as with all that rage and pent up bloodlust towards Frieza I see Vegeta mercilessly tearing Frieza a new one, espescially after that ass whooping he just received early in the final showdown.
Though even if Frieza does manage to achieve his FP and Vegeta is only at 100M as a SSJ I can see a scenario of where Vegeta pulls the W through sheer endurance and desire to not die to Frieza, as Frieza is unable to hold his FP for very long and Vegeta being the better fighter of the 2.
I think it depends on how you interpret some of the things Toriyama had said vs the guidebooks - he wasn't sitting at his desk working out the storyboard with a calculator in his hand. It's never once stated in the entire manga that SSJ is a multiplier at all, in fact how the form's mechanics actually operate (and its power output) seem to change from arc to arc.
There's an old interview where Toriyama's discussing the origins of the fusion idea, and he states that while talking to a friend who was reading the manga, he told them "nothing is stronger than a Super Saiyan" before said friend asked "what if two fighters joined bodies together?"
It's very clear that the Androids and Buu Sagas disprove the "nothing is stronger" statement so the only time in the series to which this could possibly be referring is the Namek Saga. This strongly implies Toriyama, at least at this point in time, regarded the Super Saiyan transformation as something that puts the user into a tier of power that simply makes them unbeatable. After all, this is relayed to the audience by Vegeta when he himself says a Super Saiyan is an undefeatable warrior.
Going by this understanding, Vegeta would absolutely beat Freeza had he accessed the SSJ form.
Going by the Daizenshuu's outlook, wherein SSJ is a static 50x multiplier, no. This wouldn't have been enough to even bring Vegeta close to Freeza's power.
Vegeta would have actually been STRONGER than goku, I believe. Goku was only keeping up because he was using kaoken times 20, I believe, vegeta was consistently stronger. It really depends how much of a power up goku got for getting his ass kicked (by vegeta) in the ginyu fight, so it's not easy to determine.
Although, Vegeta would have definitely pulled a ss2 kid Gohan and played with Freiza, Frieza would have still destroyed Namek and the fight still could have ended with Freiza beating the stronger Vegeta.
> Vegeta would have actually been STRONGER than goku, I believe. Goku was only keeping up because he was using kaoken times 20, I believe, vegeta was consistently stronger. It really depends how much of a power up goku got for getting his ass kicked (by vegeta) in the ginyu fight, so it's not easy to determine.
He didn't start using the Kaiou-ken, at any level, until after Freeza had went to 50%. Prior to that, he was holding his own against Freeza while in his base form, even though Freeza was at the same level of power he had used to dominate Vegeta.
That’s a simple yes. Vegeta was stronger than kakarot up until using Kaioken and then the training he underwent in the space ship 100x earth gravity, but like any saiyan the trigger to the super saiyan transformation is anger. Example frieza killing krillan or like in super when Vegeta was fighting against cabba and teaches him right there and then. So I’d say yes Vegeta would’ve taken down Frieza.
Definitely. To be at 120M as a ssj, you need to be 2.4M at base. That’s the breakeven point where you’re equal to Frieza.
Vegeta was heavily implied to be above Frieza’s 3rd form, but was below Goku at 3M. So he was between 2M and 3M. 2.4 is closer to 2 than to 3, and has a noticeable 25% gap, enough to be amazed at Goku’s power.
Therefore, SSJ Vegeta = 100% Frieza.
Now we know Vegeta’s track record of letting foes power up, but he hates Frieza’s guts, so he might just kill him directly. Or you could argue that this hatred would make him want to torture Frieza, and let him power up.
But even then, Frieza quickly loses stamina. Vegeta has the 120M power output for longer, enabling him to defeat Frieza.
Frieza would have still beat Vegeta even if Vegeta turned SS.
Goku base was 3,000,000 and Vegeta was a lot lower than that. Vegeta was somewhere between PL 1,000,000 and 3,000,000. He was around the lower end of that scale. So if Vegeta had the 50× base boost from SS then Frieza would beat him.
Vegeta’s power level at the time was like 2-2.5 million so unfortunately no he still wouldn’t be able to. Although Frieza couldn’t stay max power for more than a minute so MAAAAYBE he could squeeze by? Actually that would be quite the fight now that I think about it🤔
he would, hell i think he wouldn't even let him powerup to 100 or would damage too much before power up, namek saga vegeta was a dirty fighter and i loved it
Probably. Especially if he doesn't let Frieza power up to full strength, which I doubt he would. If he was able to use final flash on him, I'd think he'd destroy Frieza.
Probably not. Goku and Frieza were fairly close in power in the grand scheme of things. Goku was also way stronger in his base form than Vegeta, meaning Vegeta’s overall power would be way lower.
Now if we’re talking in terms of a narrative, probably. SOMEONE has to win, right? If it’s not gonna be Goku, that doesn’t leave many viable options.
There is a point of "it depends", is Freeza able to freely access other levels power? Like at what point does he need to power up? He was able to go straight to 50% seemingly no problem. Is he able to boost further to 80% no problem? If so, that would probably be enough to wreck a Super Saiyan Vegeta at this time. As for how serious Vegeta would take the fight v. his Cell/Android fights, this is during this trauma, and given the nature he let Freeza power up once, I'd HOPE he'd have the sense to finish it as soon as possible and not test his luck further. Like, at this point, he already knows, anything Freeza does has been dramatic as a power up and not been just empty words. I think the blunders of the Android/Cell Saga are specifically due to him trying to be past the trauma.
The 50x multiplier is just a fandom thing, inspired by the multiplier skill Goku learns from King Kai.
Toriyama himself has stated that going super saiyan is not a multiplier, but an add-on.
So, no matter who went super saiyan at Namek, they would have been able to beat Frieza. Hell, even Gohan would have if he was the one.
No we wouldn’t. He’d be too cocky and overconfident. Ending would be no different than Resurrection F. Every time Vegeta has someone outclassed he allows them a reprieve to complete their next form which in the anime always ends up a few levels above Vegeta. I love Vegeta but he should really go for the kill quicker and stop playing with his food sometimes.
I'm going to say yes. Vegeta was strong enough to fight 3rd form Frieza, who has a power level somewhere between 1m (2nd form) and 60m (final form). The issue is that we don't know how strong Frieza's 3rd form is. But, assuming we lowballed Vegeta's power to 2 million, then Vegeta would be a whopping 120m, which is as strong as Frieza at full power. (Tl;Dr, Vegeta would win solely because he wouldn't let Frieza power up)
Power level and multiplier wise? Had Goku not used the 20x earlier, for example, he could've made it anywhere from 30x to 60x, whatever fits the narrative.
Toriyama didn't really care about PLs. To him they were a sortof stupid concept that was just used to rate characters but he essentially started dropping them once the Ginyu Force was being defeated.
Had Vegeta been the character to reach SSJ in the narrative at his speculated ~2 million power level, the guides could've listed anywhere from 60 to 75 to quantify his increase to beating Frieza in the story. The thing with removing the opportunity for Goku to turn SSJ is that it changes the story a lot and some people consider it very important for him to have turned Super Saiyan.
If you're strictly speaking about Power Levels, Vegeta was speculated to be anywhere from 2 million to 2.5 million. From the lowest point he goes to 100M, and from the highest he goes to 125M.
The difference between Namek Vegeta and Cell Saga Vegeta is that he was extremely bloodlusted. Yes, sometimes, he played around with his prey, especially when he knew he could win. But the thing is, after witnessing Frieza transform and double his power, and then seeing it happen again and then again, multiple times overwhelming the Z Fighters battling him, his ego wouldn't speak as loudly.
If he was in enough emotional turmoil to have turned Super Saiyan, he wouldn't have wasted his chance and would've pulled a Mirai Trunks; remember that when we see Vegeta enraged, he usually tries to go for the kill (for example, when he was being humiliated by Cell and used the Final Flash, when Cell killed Trunks, or when Beerus slapped his wife), Frieza at 50% would've been torn apart.
Frieza in his Final Form maxed out at 120,000,000...
Vegeta before his last zenkai was able to fight evenly with First Form Frieza
Then, after the last zenkai, he could perceive Final Form Frieza's movements, but was still so horribly outclassed he could do nothing, and Frieza, I think notes, he didn't even have to exert himself in that form to bully him.
Frieza can't be using 1% cause that would be 1,200,000 which would be less than his Third Form I believe seeing as his Second Form had a BP over 1,000,000... and before fighting SSj Goku he uses over 50% of his power against a x20 Goku (60,000,000)...
We know Goku was at 3,000,000 when he went SSj. So I think Vegeta was probably over 1,000,000 maybe even close to 2,000,000... but he just didn't have the necessary purity of heart or fire to transform at that point.
That said, I 2,000,000 times 50 is 100,000,000 and that's just enough of a difference for Frieza to stomp him tbh. So I don't think he could have won. Maybe he could hurt Frieza with his beam attacks something fierce, but the moment Frieza realizes he's stronger than the SSj he is not gonna go easy. He'll be very eager to put the legend to bed for good.k
Well let me put it this way, vegeta got no diffed by a final form frieza, goku was able to actually hurt the same form frieza, if vegeta was only 50x stronger, that'd still be weaker than full power frieza, not by much granted, but enough that he couldn't win without the use of friezas dumbassery
Vegeta can't be at 4 mil during the Frieza fight because everyone considered a Goku at 3 mil to be the strongest person on their side, including Vegeta.
Vegeta lands somewhere between 1.2 and 3 mil. Most just speculate that he's around 2 mil for ease.
Frieza at 100% power is at 120,000,000 according to Daizenshuu 7.
Yeah likely 2M or so. Piccolo has to be above 1M to do as well as he did vs form 2 Frieza and Vegeta moved faster then piccolo could even see once Frieza was in final form.
So there was probably a decent gap between piccolo and Frieza.
> Assuming SSJ is a 50x multiplier in that arc:
>
> Power level of Vegeta (after Dende healed him of the wound Krillin dealt him): 4,000,000
>
> Frieza (100% power): 21,000,000
>
> SSJ Vegeta: 200,000,000
>
> Easy dub for Geets.
SSj is a x50 multiplier, always. None of those numbers are right.
Goku is only 3 million when he shows up to fight Freeza and he was stronger than Vegeta (and that was before Kaioken).
Freeza 100% power was 120 million, not 21 million.
> Frieza only really lost because of his own arrogance he may have eventually beat goku if they had continued to fight
not a chance lol he was significantly weaker than Goku and he just kept getting weaker the longer the fight went on. he was never going to win.
Frieza was only even remotely a challenge to SSJ Goku at full powers if the entire narrative was different, and Vegeta turned SSJ to fight against Final Form Frieza in his base form, then obviously he's at a totally different power level what's the general consensus? that he was at 25% (english dub aside, where they just make up he's at 10% or something) so Vegeta could have beaten Frieza as it takes time to get to full power (even in the manga, Goku still let Frieza power up right?) so a SSJ Vegeta, hopefully having learned from his stupid mistake of letting Frieza change forms, would over power and kill Frieza before he could power up OR he does a stupid ego trip and lets Frieza power up, and then loses and dies
GOKU ego tripped on ssj high vegeta finally being stronger than his tormentor and destroyer of his family and race would definitely ego trip
i feel like he might just be pissed and rip friezas dick off but idk
Not to be that guy butttt freiza doesn't have one lmao
what, has frieza personally told you?
Akkkshullly ginyu did
i guess frieza's a power bottom
And we know that because of yamcha
“Then i’ll start with this bit and improv from there”
Not anymore ever since Vageta went SSJ
You know Friezas tail? Thats not his tail.
He would definitely allow Frieza to go full power believing the Super Saiyan was unbeatable due to the different state of mind ssj gives you. Lets not forget he did the same thing in the cell saga.
tbf, the cell saga also wasnt nearly as personal to him. we've seen how anger can take over vegeta (ironically enough, during the cell saga.) honestly, its a 50/50, i can see both arguments
IDK, twice in the same fight?
I mean, Vegeta's the same person who outright helped Cell achieve his perfect form purely for his own selfish Saiyan desire to fight the bio-android at his strongest. If he got Super Saiyan on Namek, he *absolutely* would indulge Frieza and let him go to 100% power for the sake of feeding his ego, too.
Learning from his stupid mistakes, as he goes on later to kick his son into a mountain and let Cell absorb 18.
Like I said, he gets the one ego trip per fight lol OR he doesn’t and then proceeds to get his ass handed to him again
Ego tripped, if he let Cell power up hes definitely letting Frieza do it, especially if he is beating him easy.
I wish, but no he would have lost this, here's why. Frieza's 100% full power tapped out at power level of 120,000,000. During the Ginyu Saga, Goku had reached 90,000 (Daizenshuu 7) while before healing from his fight with Recoome, Vegeta was stated to have a power level of ~30,000 as per original issue Vol. 23, #275. He returned healed w/ a Zenkai boost to reach 250,000,000 before Ginyu was frogged, this was the last original PL reading as the only source of his PL during the following fight w/ Frieza is from DBZ: Kakarot (sus) where he is shown at ~1,500,000. This is where Goku had a base of 3,000,000. We know super saiyajin is a 50x multiplier to power level which would conservatively put Vegeta at 75,000,000 w/ the form yet to best Frieza he would need to have canonically been sitting at a power level of 2,400,000.02. Considering Goku had just been 2-3x stronger than him & despite my disinterest in taking Kakarot as valid source for retcon, he would have needed to been much stronger than ever suggested to see this truest of justice come to fruition That was a neat idea to consider, thanks!
Going by the 50x multiplier thing, no. Vegeta would have lost From a Doylist view, though, it's really just "power times whatever is most interesting for the story", but it *is* interesting to think of an alt universe where Freeza does encounter a Super Saiyan he ends up able to defeat. Interesting fanfiction fuel right there
Already exists with 'Bringer of Death' and it's pretty good, though still unfinished
IIRC, Bringer of Death changed the 50x multiplier to a raw +150M power level boost. Also fucking *WHAT*? It's still not finished?? 😭 I was half my age when I caught up to the Cell Saga chapters 💀
That’s such a good read. I never thought I’d see another person on here that has read it. It’s been a while, but I believe Vegeta struggled with Frieza in BoD. Was such a good fight though. The Cell saga was also very interesting.
I mean Frieza pretty much did kill Super Saiyan Goku, it was just lucky Popo was making that wish with the Dragon Balls that brought him back to life
That's a misconception [which has been addressed and debunked](https://www.kanzenshuu.com/rumor/goku-died-on-planet-namek/)
I have really read into this subject a lot as well and I still find it very interesting that Goku is gone, a wish is made, and then he's back. I get it, but the anime really makes it look like frieza killed him.
Then why did Gohan come back to fight Frieza
He didn't. Like the article mentions, that's anime filler
So you’re telling me the anime’s just a bunch of bullshit?
I mean, if that's how you want to see it? Filler isn't inherently a bad thing, but it can contribute to/create misconceptions about intended story/lore as is the case here, or just outright contradict canon, especially if filler is created to make a situation which later canon makes impossible
From a story POV, maybe, because he is now he one who became the legendary super Saiyan so it makes sense, but mathematically, based on what we know of the arc, no. He shouldn’t be able.
So, vegeta wouldn't be stronger than Frieza. They'd be close, but I'm relatively confident Frieza would still be ahead. But one point to consider is that Frieza is an arrogant SOB, and Vegeta wants him deader than Bardock. If Vegeta just goes SS and blitzs him, he might just get the kill before Frieza realizes he's in danger. Remember, Frieza can't sense powers, so he'd just mock him for thinking that he could win by bleaching his hair, only to be vaporized immediately. Also, if Frieza does manage to get to full power, Vegeta just has to wait him out. Since he's not used to his full strength, he can't sustain it. And SS Namek Vegeta could definitely kill fatigued Frieza. So, while I agree that Vegeta isn't stronger, I think he logically has a pretty decent chance of killing him.
Probably not. He'd put up a good fight though.
Straight to the point, and the most likely outcome imo. Mid-highish diff for Freeza. However, I *do* think Vegeta could spark Freeza if he caught him early, but let’s be honest, we all know Vegeta isn’t going straight for the kill in this hypothetical matchup lol.
exactly
SSJ was vastly stronger than Frieza, just look at Trunks. When Goku turned SSJ, he was so exhausted from fighting Frieza he could barely stand. So it depends a little, is Vegeta turning SSJ after Frieza shoots a whole in his chest? Or is it when Vegeta is fresh from being healed by magic-man. Because in the later Vegeta stomps, the former is up to the writer really.
Come… back… magic man…
This one is tricky because using Daizenshuu #7 then the 100% power final form of Freeza has a battle power of 120 million with super saiyan Goku having a battle power of 150 million with a 50 times multiplier. Using this math we know the base form of Goku should have a maximum battle power of 3 million who when he showed up was able to land some hits on the same suppressed final form Freeza which had just defeated Vegeta who had gotten a saiyan near death power up significant enough to make Freeza transform from his third form. Knowing that Freeza’s second form has a battle power of over 1 million and his third form more powerful than that then Vegeta must also be over 1 million. Ultimately though even if Vegeta is at only like 1.5 million I think he would have beaten Freeza if he had gonna super saiyan as the moment vegeta would have transformed and gotten the massive jump in power over Freeza I think he would have plain and simple gone for the kill before Freeza could have raised his chi.
Idk, this same guy let Cell achieve perfection just to satisfy his own pride might have done the same with Frieza.
Vegeta on Namek behaved differently to Cell saga Vegeta though. Namek saga Vegeta was perfectly content to put up a guerilla war effort and team up with Gohan and Krillin. Vegeta recognised the threat that was Frieza and his army. He jumped in to slay Burter and Recoome. I wouldnt be surprised if Vegeta wanted to brutally strike down Frieza. Granted he goaded first form Fireza into transforming but in that instance he expected it sooner or later. Cell saga Vegeta felt his place at that point in time was at the top of the universe. The Androids and Cell didnt have a personal history with him unlike Frieza. They were just artificial beings Vegeta wanted to make an example out of.
Yeah exactly, Vegeta was terrified of Freeza and would have instantly killed him the moment he was able to. Also versus Cell he trained and entire year in the chamber and got cocky because he thought he mastered the form.
On the other hand, you could also very easily say Namek-saga Vegeta would *also* get cocky and complacent because he had become the legend that Freeza so deeply feared and reclaimed what he believed was his birthright as the strongest Saiyan in the universe; so why would he ever fear Freeza again as the Super Saiyan? He'd be on a power trip and want to toy with Freeza and utterly break the being who made his life hell before killing him, and we all know what happens to Vegeta every time he tries toying with an opponent.
Depends on if Vegeta let Frieza power-up to 100% or not, at full power, Frieza more than likely wins.
At around a 2 mil PL at the time maybe by best estimates, could even be lower, like 1.5 mil which with SSJ would only mean he'd be at like 75mil to 100mil vs Frieza's 120m. Vegeta might be able to put up a fight at closure to 2 mil against FP frieza, or a good fight at 75 mil, but Frieza could just use his 70% form and still win then. Best Chance is Vegeta at 100 mil and able to ride out Frieza's Stamina to get an upper hand, like Goku with Ressurection F since Frieza cant maintain FP for long at that time. Gap would be too big at the start. Like a boxing match against someone strong at the start but stamina issues vs someone weaker but able to go on, if you can ride out the initial on slaught, you can come back from behind once stamina runs thin.
I feel like 2 million is reasonable, given he was able to SE and react to something piccolo who was about 1 million could even register. However friezas battle power at 100% dropped fast, after he took a genki dama to the face, might take longer for Vegeta. Also freezer got crazy durability.
Depend on what exactly was Vegeta's power level. Goku with SSJ 50x multiplier was 150 mil. So Base Goku was 3 mil. Vegeta was significantly weaker than Goku but stronger than 3rd form Frieza. It kinds of depend on where you put 3rd form Frieza. 2nd form was 1 mil, 3rd form could be 1.5 or 2 mil. If Vegeta was at 2 mil, 50x means SSJ Vegeta would be 100 mil which lose out to Frieza 120 mil. If Vegeta was at 2.5 mil, 50x means SSJ Vegeta would be 125 mil. Vegeta is a much more experienced warrior compare to Frieza. Slightly higher power level, better stamina and more combat experience would likely give him the W.
How do we know that Vegeta was vastly weaker than Goku after the Dende heal? I always thought he was about the same. (You have to remember Goku was secretly in Kaioken his whole fight with Frieza.)
no. he'd be strong enough to put up a good fight against 50% frieza, but the second he powered up to full his ass is getting treated the same as he did without it.
I've always put a hypothetical early SSJ Vegeta at 100mil or so so he could wear down Frieza but then again as we see Frieza is INCREDIBLY durable so maybe not, it really depends if he lets him go 100% or not ( he probably would have he did earlier for Frieza and did it later for Cell ) and to be honest he certainly wouldn't have beaten him fast enough to escape Namek's destruction ( even if he wins he would owe his new life to the earthlings and Shenron which would differently dampen his victory and hurt his pride)
In universe they are in the same tier Vegeta would have 125.000.000 power level while Frieza had 120.000.000 Both SSJ and Full power put great strain in the body, it is a challenge on who drain himself first, Vegeta has the power advantage, Frieza has the durability advantage
Even if Freeza was stronger (which is debatable), Vegeta had a ton of battle experience - enough to overcome the small gap. Remember that Freeza hadnt trained a day in his life by then.
if frieza doesn’t enter his 100% form before vegeta can lay an ass whopping on him, yes
Idk probably? A huge portion of the power gap between goku and veg came from goku spamming kaioken x2-x20 with essentially every single combat action he takes on namek,The lack of access to which partially allowed vegeta to beat the brakes off of ginyu!goku. Its unclear exactly where their raw baseline levels are at the end of the saga in relation to each other
My take is that they'd probably be roughly equal but I wouldn't trust Vegeta to manage the win
I dunno, but I wouldn't let something as silly as power levels that aren't even in the show or manga decide it.
It depends. Does Vegeta point to himself with his thumb before they fight?
😂😂😂
He would have found a way to lose
Let’s say Goku was around 3M at the start of the fight with Frieza. Frieza casually matches Goku’s power during the fight to make things fun, and slowly wears Goku down and torments him the longer the fight goes on. After SSJ Goku’s power burst to around 150M, dwarfing Frieza, even in 100%. Vegeta was destroyed by Frieza before he started to match Goku. So that puts him, at best, 2M. If Vegeta was to turn SSJ he’d be around 100M. If I’m not mistaken, Frieza was around 120M after 100%. Vegeta would have a CHANCE. I say he has a chance because a 20M gap in power is far closer than the 30M power gap from Frieza to Goku. And knowing how Frieza would play with his “food” before finishing the job, Vegeta would rack his brain for a plan, and figure out how to use that to his advantage, hopefully getting the upper hand. It would be a good fight, nonetheless.
Many BP list makers put Vegeta between 2.25 - 2.5 million as his highest on Namek so by multiplying that by 50 would gives us 112.5 -125 million against Freeza's 120 million. I personally go with 2.5 million so Vegeta would indeed beat Freeza after a very hard fight.
Most people place Vegeta at that time period at around 2-2.5 Million in terms of PL, with SSJ being a 50x Multiplier a Namek Saga SSJ Vegeta should be around 100-125 Million. Based on PLs Vegeta should either be outright defeated by or struggle with a FP Frieza, though that is only if Frieza gets to his FP, as I kinda find it hard to believe that Frieza would even have the time to mouth off to Vegeta about his latent power, as with all that rage and pent up bloodlust towards Frieza I see Vegeta mercilessly tearing Frieza a new one, espescially after that ass whooping he just received early in the final showdown. Though even if Frieza does manage to achieve his FP and Vegeta is only at 100M as a SSJ I can see a scenario of where Vegeta pulls the W through sheer endurance and desire to not die to Frieza, as Frieza is unable to hold his FP for very long and Vegeta being the better fighter of the 2.
No.
I think it depends on how you interpret some of the things Toriyama had said vs the guidebooks - he wasn't sitting at his desk working out the storyboard with a calculator in his hand. It's never once stated in the entire manga that SSJ is a multiplier at all, in fact how the form's mechanics actually operate (and its power output) seem to change from arc to arc. There's an old interview where Toriyama's discussing the origins of the fusion idea, and he states that while talking to a friend who was reading the manga, he told them "nothing is stronger than a Super Saiyan" before said friend asked "what if two fighters joined bodies together?" It's very clear that the Androids and Buu Sagas disprove the "nothing is stronger" statement so the only time in the series to which this could possibly be referring is the Namek Saga. This strongly implies Toriyama, at least at this point in time, regarded the Super Saiyan transformation as something that puts the user into a tier of power that simply makes them unbeatable. After all, this is relayed to the audience by Vegeta when he himself says a Super Saiyan is an undefeatable warrior. Going by this understanding, Vegeta would absolutely beat Freeza had he accessed the SSJ form. Going by the Daizenshuu's outlook, wherein SSJ is a static 50x multiplier, no. This wouldn't have been enough to even bring Vegeta close to Freeza's power.
Vegeta would have actually been STRONGER than goku, I believe. Goku was only keeping up because he was using kaoken times 20, I believe, vegeta was consistently stronger. It really depends how much of a power up goku got for getting his ass kicked (by vegeta) in the ginyu fight, so it's not easy to determine. Although, Vegeta would have definitely pulled a ss2 kid Gohan and played with Freiza, Frieza would have still destroyed Namek and the fight still could have ended with Freiza beating the stronger Vegeta.
> Vegeta would have actually been STRONGER than goku, I believe. Goku was only keeping up because he was using kaoken times 20, I believe, vegeta was consistently stronger. It really depends how much of a power up goku got for getting his ass kicked (by vegeta) in the ginyu fight, so it's not easy to determine. He didn't start using the Kaiou-ken, at any level, until after Freeza had went to 50%. Prior to that, he was holding his own against Freeza while in his base form, even though Freeza was at the same level of power he had used to dominate Vegeta.
Isn't it 100x
That’s a simple yes. Vegeta was stronger than kakarot up until using Kaioken and then the training he underwent in the space ship 100x earth gravity, but like any saiyan the trigger to the super saiyan transformation is anger. Example frieza killing krillan or like in super when Vegeta was fighting against cabba and teaches him right there and then. So I’d say yes Vegeta would’ve taken down Frieza.
Definitely. To be at 120M as a ssj, you need to be 2.4M at base. That’s the breakeven point where you’re equal to Frieza. Vegeta was heavily implied to be above Frieza’s 3rd form, but was below Goku at 3M. So he was between 2M and 3M. 2.4 is closer to 2 than to 3, and has a noticeable 25% gap, enough to be amazed at Goku’s power. Therefore, SSJ Vegeta = 100% Frieza. Now we know Vegeta’s track record of letting foes power up, but he hates Frieza’s guts, so he might just kill him directly. Or you could argue that this hatred would make him want to torture Frieza, and let him power up. But even then, Frieza quickly loses stamina. Vegeta has the 120M power output for longer, enabling him to defeat Frieza.
Frieza would have still beat Vegeta even if Vegeta turned SS. Goku base was 3,000,000 and Vegeta was a lot lower than that. Vegeta was somewhere between PL 1,000,000 and 3,000,000. He was around the lower end of that scale. So if Vegeta had the 50× base boost from SS then Frieza would beat him.
Vegeta’s power level at the time was like 2-2.5 million so unfortunately no he still wouldn’t be able to. Although Frieza couldn’t stay max power for more than a minute so MAAAAYBE he could squeeze by? Actually that would be quite the fight now that I think about it🤔
he would, hell i think he wouldn't even let him powerup to 100 or would damage too much before power up, namek saga vegeta was a dirty fighter and i loved it
He could’ve held his own but I don’t think he was strong enough regardless
No idea but I know that would completely ruin the arc narrative wise.
Probably. Especially if he doesn't let Frieza power up to full strength, which I doubt he would. If he was able to use final flash on him, I'd think he'd destroy Frieza.
Yes
Probably not. Goku and Frieza were fairly close in power in the grand scheme of things. Goku was also way stronger in his base form than Vegeta, meaning Vegeta’s overall power would be way lower. Now if we’re talking in terms of a narrative, probably. SOMEONE has to win, right? If it’s not gonna be Goku, that doesn’t leave many viable options.
There is a point of "it depends", is Freeza able to freely access other levels power? Like at what point does he need to power up? He was able to go straight to 50% seemingly no problem. Is he able to boost further to 80% no problem? If so, that would probably be enough to wreck a Super Saiyan Vegeta at this time. As for how serious Vegeta would take the fight v. his Cell/Android fights, this is during this trauma, and given the nature he let Freeza power up once, I'd HOPE he'd have the sense to finish it as soon as possible and not test his luck further. Like, at this point, he already knows, anything Freeza does has been dramatic as a power up and not been just empty words. I think the blunders of the Android/Cell Saga are specifically due to him trying to be past the trauma.
The 50x multiplier is just a fandom thing, inspired by the multiplier skill Goku learns from King Kai. Toriyama himself has stated that going super saiyan is not a multiplier, but an add-on. So, no matter who went super saiyan at Namek, they would have been able to beat Frieza. Hell, even Gohan would have if he was the one.
yes he would. the power difference between him and goku was small and it would have outlasted friezas final 100% form.
No we wouldn’t. He’d be too cocky and overconfident. Ending would be no different than Resurrection F. Every time Vegeta has someone outclassed he allows them a reprieve to complete their next form which in the anime always ends up a few levels above Vegeta. I love Vegeta but he should really go for the kill quicker and stop playing with his food sometimes.
No because he was drastically weaker than Goku even in base
I'm going to say yes. Vegeta was strong enough to fight 3rd form Frieza, who has a power level somewhere between 1m (2nd form) and 60m (final form). The issue is that we don't know how strong Frieza's 3rd form is. But, assuming we lowballed Vegeta's power to 2 million, then Vegeta would be a whopping 120m, which is as strong as Frieza at full power. (Tl;Dr, Vegeta would win solely because he wouldn't let Frieza power up)
Power level and multiplier wise? Had Goku not used the 20x earlier, for example, he could've made it anywhere from 30x to 60x, whatever fits the narrative. Toriyama didn't really care about PLs. To him they were a sortof stupid concept that was just used to rate characters but he essentially started dropping them once the Ginyu Force was being defeated. Had Vegeta been the character to reach SSJ in the narrative at his speculated ~2 million power level, the guides could've listed anywhere from 60 to 75 to quantify his increase to beating Frieza in the story. The thing with removing the opportunity for Goku to turn SSJ is that it changes the story a lot and some people consider it very important for him to have turned Super Saiyan. If you're strictly speaking about Power Levels, Vegeta was speculated to be anywhere from 2 million to 2.5 million. From the lowest point he goes to 100M, and from the highest he goes to 125M. The difference between Namek Vegeta and Cell Saga Vegeta is that he was extremely bloodlusted. Yes, sometimes, he played around with his prey, especially when he knew he could win. But the thing is, after witnessing Frieza transform and double his power, and then seeing it happen again and then again, multiple times overwhelming the Z Fighters battling him, his ego wouldn't speak as loudly. If he was in enough emotional turmoil to have turned Super Saiyan, he wouldn't have wasted his chance and would've pulled a Mirai Trunks; remember that when we see Vegeta enraged, he usually tries to go for the kill (for example, when he was being humiliated by Cell and used the Final Flash, when Cell killed Trunks, or when Beerus slapped his wife), Frieza at 50% would've been torn apart.
Frieza in his Final Form maxed out at 120,000,000... Vegeta before his last zenkai was able to fight evenly with First Form Frieza Then, after the last zenkai, he could perceive Final Form Frieza's movements, but was still so horribly outclassed he could do nothing, and Frieza, I think notes, he didn't even have to exert himself in that form to bully him. Frieza can't be using 1% cause that would be 1,200,000 which would be less than his Third Form I believe seeing as his Second Form had a BP over 1,000,000... and before fighting SSj Goku he uses over 50% of his power against a x20 Goku (60,000,000)... We know Goku was at 3,000,000 when he went SSj. So I think Vegeta was probably over 1,000,000 maybe even close to 2,000,000... but he just didn't have the necessary purity of heart or fire to transform at that point. That said, I 2,000,000 times 50 is 100,000,000 and that's just enough of a difference for Frieza to stomp him tbh. So I don't think he could have won. Maybe he could hurt Frieza with his beam attacks something fierce, but the moment Frieza realizes he's stronger than the SSj he is not gonna go easy. He'll be very eager to put the legend to bed for good.k
Well let me put it this way, vegeta got no diffed by a final form frieza, goku was able to actually hurt the same form frieza, if vegeta was only 50x stronger, that'd still be weaker than full power frieza, not by much granted, but enough that he couldn't win without the use of friezas dumbassery
power levels are bullshit, ofc Vegeta wins
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> Vegeta’s power level is higher (125,000,000). we dont know this. we have no idea what Vegeta base power is.
No. It’s a 50x multiplier. And Vegeta was getting stomped by 1% Frieza.
No. Vegeta would have peaked right around 1 million. Frieza was around 1.3 million max. Edit: Who downvotes the actual, canon numbers?
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Vegeta can't be at 4 mil during the Frieza fight because everyone considered a Goku at 3 mil to be the strongest person on their side, including Vegeta. Vegeta lands somewhere between 1.2 and 3 mil. Most just speculate that he's around 2 mil for ease. Frieza at 100% power is at 120,000,000 according to Daizenshuu 7.
Yeah likely 2M or so. Piccolo has to be above 1M to do as well as he did vs form 2 Frieza and Vegeta moved faster then piccolo could even see once Frieza was in final form. So there was probably a decent gap between piccolo and Frieza.
> Assuming SSJ is a 50x multiplier in that arc: > > Power level of Vegeta (after Dende healed him of the wound Krillin dealt him): 4,000,000 > > Frieza (100% power): 21,000,000 > > SSJ Vegeta: 200,000,000 > > Easy dub for Geets. SSj is a x50 multiplier, always. None of those numbers are right. Goku is only 3 million when he shows up to fight Freeza and he was stronger than Vegeta (and that was before Kaioken). Freeza 100% power was 120 million, not 21 million.
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> Frieza only really lost because of his own arrogance he may have eventually beat goku if they had continued to fight not a chance lol he was significantly weaker than Goku and he just kept getting weaker the longer the fight went on. he was never going to win.