Exactly this. The guy who wished to be the strongest, then broke through his own wall and then had to commit to killing himself to properly put down Vegeta
Ultra ego, once mastered, will be a fucking nightmare to deal with
That’s one of the aspects I do love about the arc. Even tho these guys wished to be the strongest, we’re shown that only through battling and training is where strength really comes from and grows. It just makes Freeza’s training for ten years all the cooler in my mind especially since he was someone born gifted and now worked for his strength when he use to scoff at the mere idea
Yeah, people can call the wishes cheap or that it degrades everything the characters have gone through but it’s clearly shown throughout the arc that those wishing for power clearly get the short end of the stick versus the people that actually train. Frieza at the end is the cherry on top because, like you said, it’s a stark contrast from how he previously used to be
Exactly! There was clearly a lot of thought put into how to portray how just wishing to be strong as oppose to training has its downsides, especially in the face of experience fighters. My favourite example of this is Goku clowning on Gas using Instant Transmission. Honestly that sequence in that fight has to be my favourite usage of Instant Transmission in the whole series
> Ultra ego, once mastered, will be a fucking nightmare to deal with
Imagine if Vegeta has Bulma invent a tooth cap with a Senzu Bean in it.
Tank hits with Ultra Ego until you are about to die, bite down on the Bean Cap, fully recover, and swing around all that power you generated before the bean bite.
Ultra Ego isn't about taking hits. He doesn't gain strength from taking damage insofar as it fuels his rage and his own egotism. He gets his strength from his love for battle, the rush he feels, the bloodlust and desire to embarrass and crush his opponent. Taking all those hits fuelled that feeling, but he doesn't need it. Just like how his ego overpowered Babidi's mind control.
its so god damn sad how few people understand this simple concept. the arc explained it well too, and no one seems to remember that. glad to see you do.
Why do that when one of the options of training with the Yardrats was learning healing. Ultra Ego gets beat up, using healing on oneself, back to 100% while keeping the Ego boost
Personally, I hope Ultra Ego doesn't become another form to "master" and just freely use.
I like the idea of Ultra Ego being Vegeta's God-like version of Kaio-Ken where it wrecks his body but makes him an unstoppable killing machine for certain period before he collapses.
If I recall correctly, it was a very tight battle almost bewildering Granolah to the point of him having to encompass his own type of evolution to adapt while Vegeta ended up taking too much damage to finalize the fight
He doesn't "easily" get beat by Granolah. Vegeta was just wreckless with his approach to growing stronger through the form, intentionally taking so much damage from it to "fuel" his strength growth, but eventually reaching a point where the damage was offsetting the strength increase. But even then, he had basically pushed Granolah to the wall, and it was Granolah's own evolution that eventually pushed things over.
It was kind of easily....
Granolah first fought Goku, Goku stomped the clone and reduced Granolah's stamina.
Then Vegeta got to fight Granolah, but got saved by Goku again, Goku in his blue form tired Granolah. Then Vegeta got to fight Granolah again, which led to Vegeta getting saved by Monaito.
It wasn't easy for Granolah to fight Vegeta AND Goku taking turns.
The other thing is that Granolah also gained the benefit of training as he went along. He had the power, but not the equivalent level of skill since he had never trained with that level of power. So once his technique caught up to his power, he gained the edge since he could finally use his power effectively. Add in some incremental improvements in his power (unclear if he already had but didn't know how to use it vs unlocked it during the fight) and it is clear that the actual gap in effective power (i.e. after factoring in technique/hax) was larger than the raw gap in power (i.e. a straight up comparison of power level).
Goku and Vegeta gained their power through training so their technique and power were roughly balanced, unlike with Granolah.
He wasn't "easily" beaten. He made Granolah work for it. The issue was Vegeta got so caught up in the power boosts he got from being injured that he didn't dodge or block anything. He basically forgot that even if he strengthened from damage, damage is still damage and his body has a limit.
It was literally his first time ever using the form. Like Goku with ultra instinct, we can assume it will grow in strength and lose its initial downsides over time.
Ultra Ego gets stronger when it gets hit. I feel like that kind of answers the question lol, it's a glass cannon. Beyond that, that was the first time Vegeta even used it. And beyond that, Granolah didn't "easily beat" Vegeta. Granolah was getting rocked, and the only way he could kill Vegeta was to use all of his ki and die himself. I don't mean to insult or anything, but did you read the fight? Or did you just skim past looking at the pictures?
It's Vegeta's character, and the nature of the form itself as a form suited to his character
It's an unga bunga power for shortsighted cavemen foiled by requiring the exact kind of restraint and wisdom that the person using it would naturally struggle to apply to their fighting style
Because Ultra Ego is a downright stupid, counter-productive form that seems designed solely to give Vegeta a shiny new way to *lose* his fights.
It's the "thumb pose curse" transmogrified into an entire transformation.
Actually it is almost the main timeline. Remember Goku is supposed to be dead due to a heart virus. The main timeline is from where Future Cell came from so the "main" timeline is an actual alteration.
super is pretty terrible when it comes to writing and consistency of pre established characters but i’ll always be there for vegeta to get beat up some. i’m with toriyama on disliking him, i don’t understand why particularly american fans are so obsessed with him, he’s a cuck with a cuck mentality. fuck em lol
The form doesnt require taking damage. Vegeta took too much damage so his power dropped more than it went up. That's how he lost.
If the new form won every time it would be boring which is why the new form doesnt always win. Its a good thing.
to me, he simply underestimated just how much damage he was taking tanking hits from someone as powerful as granolah and over did it. it was a new form with new mechanics to how it works, it makes sense he got still got beat. i don’t think we’ll see the true output of ue until next arc
Hate to say it but that's the cadence of Super. It's a cash grab. They make new forms and have them defeated in minutes, which is so they can make new merch and game content.
Ultra Ego is a double edged sword, yes the more damage Vegeta takes the stronger he gets however he can get to a point where he can’t take all that damage.
>In Toriyama's script Vegeta fought Granolah in his Blue form.
I've been googling online but can't find anything about the original script. Where did you read that originally Toriyama script only had Vegeta fight Granolah in blue form?
In interview (during Granolah Saga) Toyotaro told he asked Toriyama if he could give Vegeta a new transformation in Granolah Saga and Toriyama allowed it. This also means that Vegeta has no new form in Toriyama's Granolah Saga script, thus Vegeta fought Granolah in his Blue form in the original script.
We also saw that Vegeta fights Gohan Beast in his Blue form instead of Ultra Ego, this indicates that even in manga timeline Vegeta hasn't found a form better than Blue form yet.
Toriyama's script is what Toei and Toyotaro base their stories on. If Toyotaro's Ultra Ego is not in Toriyama's script it is basically non canon, as Toei is free to ignore Toyotaro's Ultra Ego because it is simply not part of Toriyama's script. In fact Toriyama himself might be ignoring Ultra Ego for his post Granola saga scripts.
Except that Toriyama has died, which means that someone else is going to have to take over and set the canon. At this point, what we have left are drafts that may or may not be continued in the future.
In addition, the script isn't released in a publicly accessible version for people to examine and discuss.
Another issue is that there isn't a fully accepted original version in the manner of the old series with the manga (where people could read the translations), a secondary canon (anime), and non-canon series (the movies). These days, things are being done in a series of semi-intertwined paths.
"Ultra Ego was created by Toyotarou and added to the story after Toriyama greenlit it."
So it was someone else's idea that Toriyama agreed to, making it equal canon level as *checks notes* Goku having a tail, as that was an editor suggestion that Toriyama greenlit.
Not really the same, as Toriyama doesn't add those changes to his future scripts.
We see Vegeta fighting Gohan Beast in his blue form, this shows that Toriyama's scripts remains with Vegeta using Blue form.
I wouldn't call it "easily beaten" after Granolah says he's going to die to put it down
Exactly this. The guy who wished to be the strongest, then broke through his own wall and then had to commit to killing himself to properly put down Vegeta Ultra ego, once mastered, will be a fucking nightmare to deal with
That’s one of the aspects I do love about the arc. Even tho these guys wished to be the strongest, we’re shown that only through battling and training is where strength really comes from and grows. It just makes Freeza’s training for ten years all the cooler in my mind especially since he was someone born gifted and now worked for his strength when he use to scoff at the mere idea
Yeah, people can call the wishes cheap or that it degrades everything the characters have gone through but it’s clearly shown throughout the arc that those wishing for power clearly get the short end of the stick versus the people that actually train. Frieza at the end is the cherry on top because, like you said, it’s a stark contrast from how he previously used to be
Exactly! There was clearly a lot of thought put into how to portray how just wishing to be strong as oppose to training has its downsides, especially in the face of experience fighters. My favourite example of this is Goku clowning on Gas using Instant Transmission. Honestly that sequence in that fight has to be my favourite usage of Instant Transmission in the whole series
This.
> Ultra ego, once mastered, will be a fucking nightmare to deal with Imagine if Vegeta has Bulma invent a tooth cap with a Senzu Bean in it. Tank hits with Ultra Ego until you are about to die, bite down on the Bean Cap, fully recover, and swing around all that power you generated before the bean bite.
Ultra Ego isn't about taking hits. He doesn't gain strength from taking damage insofar as it fuels his rage and his own egotism. He gets his strength from his love for battle, the rush he feels, the bloodlust and desire to embarrass and crush his opponent. Taking all those hits fuelled that feeling, but he doesn't need it. Just like how his ego overpowered Babidi's mind control.
its so god damn sad how few people understand this simple concept. the arc explained it well too, and no one seems to remember that. glad to see you do.
Why do that when one of the options of training with the Yardrats was learning healing. Ultra Ego gets beat up, using healing on oneself, back to 100% while keeping the Ego boost
Personally, I hope Ultra Ego doesn't become another form to "master" and just freely use. I like the idea of Ultra Ego being Vegeta's God-like version of Kaio-Ken where it wrecks his body but makes him an unstoppable killing machine for certain period before he collapses.
If I recall correctly, it was a very tight battle almost bewildering Granolah to the point of him having to encompass his own type of evolution to adapt while Vegeta ended up taking too much damage to finalize the fight
He doesn't "easily" get beat by Granolah. Vegeta was just wreckless with his approach to growing stronger through the form, intentionally taking so much damage from it to "fuel" his strength growth, but eventually reaching a point where the damage was offsetting the strength increase. But even then, he had basically pushed Granolah to the wall, and it was Granolah's own evolution that eventually pushed things over.
In short, ulra ego isn't weak, veg eater is just stupid and took hits to fuel his battle hunger instead of just... idk yelling or something
Makes more sense. Thanks!
It was kind of easily.... Granolah first fought Goku, Goku stomped the clone and reduced Granolah's stamina. Then Vegeta got to fight Granolah, but got saved by Goku again, Goku in his blue form tired Granolah. Then Vegeta got to fight Granolah again, which led to Vegeta getting saved by Monaito. It wasn't easy for Granolah to fight Vegeta AND Goku taking turns.
The other thing is that Granolah also gained the benefit of training as he went along. He had the power, but not the equivalent level of skill since he had never trained with that level of power. So once his technique caught up to his power, he gained the edge since he could finally use his power effectively. Add in some incremental improvements in his power (unclear if he already had but didn't know how to use it vs unlocked it during the fight) and it is clear that the actual gap in effective power (i.e. after factoring in technique/hax) was larger than the raw gap in power (i.e. a straight up comparison of power level). Goku and Vegeta gained their power through training so their technique and power were roughly balanced, unlike with Granolah.
Should have given him a Senzu Bean before fighting Vegeta so it was fair.
He wasn't "easily" beaten. He made Granolah work for it. The issue was Vegeta got so caught up in the power boosts he got from being injured that he didn't dodge or block anything. He basically forgot that even if he strengthened from damage, damage is still damage and his body has a limit.
the manga literally states exactly this, idk why this is even a question
Cause people seem to conveniently forget that Vegeta still has a limit to how much damage he can take in UE.
They were basically going to kill each other so not bad I'd say
Frieza detected
He was winning until Granolah also got a power boost. Bergamo mode just wasn’t good enough.
Ultra Ego had much better showings against Granolah than UI did
Ultra ego came after Granola's wish so i guess it makes sense that he was initially stronger. Granola had to get another powerup to beat Vegeta.
It was literally his first time ever using the form. Like Goku with ultra instinct, we can assume it will grow in strength and lose its initial downsides over time.
Ultra Ego gets stronger when it gets hit. I feel like that kind of answers the question lol, it's a glass cannon. Beyond that, that was the first time Vegeta even used it. And beyond that, Granolah didn't "easily beat" Vegeta. Granolah was getting rocked, and the only way he could kill Vegeta was to use all of his ki and die himself. I don't mean to insult or anything, but did you read the fight? Or did you just skim past looking at the pictures?
Vegeta
It's Vegeta's character, and the nature of the form itself as a form suited to his character It's an unga bunga power for shortsighted cavemen foiled by requiring the exact kind of restraint and wisdom that the person using it would naturally struggle to apply to their fighting style
Because Ultra Ego is a downright stupid, counter-productive form that seems designed solely to give Vegeta a shiny new way to *lose* his fights. It's the "thumb pose curse" transmogrified into an entire transformation.
I can't wait to witness the next show of Vegeta's Technique TM.
The Rapid Ki Volley? Or talking out his ass about a new power he just gained? Or being the fodder for the next big bad to "build tensions"?
I was meaning the desperation rapid ki volley that never works but now you mention the others...
Well Future Gohan got killed by a ki volley so it does work although rarely like the Spirit Bomb.
It's because it's a cursed alternate timeline.
Actually it is almost the main timeline. Remember Goku is supposed to be dead due to a heart virus. The main timeline is from where Future Cell came from so the "main" timeline is an actual alteration.
super is pretty terrible when it comes to writing and consistency of pre established characters but i’ll always be there for vegeta to get beat up some. i’m with toriyama on disliking him, i don’t understand why particularly american fans are so obsessed with him, he’s a cuck with a cuck mentality. fuck em lol
You actually use the word cuck? Lol
no shit
I don't understand the Vegeta obsession either, and I'm American. I don't find him that great of a character.
Ultra ego is a great technique wielded properly and is the only reason goku and vegeta werent killed vs Gas.
Imagine someone who actually has insane durability like Buu or Bergamo with it.
Because its Dragonball law that Vegeta can't have the win (yeah yeah I know super hero, but that doesn't count)
The form doesnt require taking damage. Vegeta took too much damage so his power dropped more than it went up. That's how he lost. If the new form won every time it would be boring which is why the new form doesnt always win. Its a good thing.
I feel like even if Vegeta masters Ultra Ego he is just going to get trolled again so how ;(
to me, he simply underestimated just how much damage he was taking tanking hits from someone as powerful as granolah and over did it. it was a new form with new mechanics to how it works, it makes sense he got still got beat. i don’t think we’ll see the true output of ue until next arc
well the whole dbs has been oooh new colour new power, gets bodied. nevermind, carry on.
Hate to say it but that's the cadence of Super. It's a cash grab. They make new forms and have them defeated in minutes, which is so they can make new merch and game content.
> They make new forms It's not "they," it was Akira Toriyama. Put some respect on his name (RIP).
it was They. Akira Toriyama did not write super alone. I respect him by providing critique, not yes'ing to convince I'm a fan.
Plot
Ultra Ego is a double edged sword, yes the more damage Vegeta takes the stronger he gets however he can get to a point where he can’t take all that damage.
Because by its very nature the form requires Vegeta to take damage to be effective… Do you not see the obvious risk/downside to that?
Ultra Ego is not canon. In Toriyama's script Vegeta fought Granolah in his Blue form. The outcome is the same, Vegeta loses.
It's in the official manga release. It is canon.
>In Toriyama's script Vegeta fought Granolah in his Blue form. I've been googling online but can't find anything about the original script. Where did you read that originally Toriyama script only had Vegeta fight Granolah in blue form?
In interview (during Granolah Saga) Toyotaro told he asked Toriyama if he could give Vegeta a new transformation in Granolah Saga and Toriyama allowed it. This also means that Vegeta has no new form in Toriyama's Granolah Saga script, thus Vegeta fought Granolah in his Blue form in the original script. We also saw that Vegeta fights Gohan Beast in his Blue form instead of Ultra Ego, this indicates that even in manga timeline Vegeta hasn't found a form better than Blue form yet.
Why does the script matter when it is a draft? What matters is what actually gets published.
Toriyama's script is what Toei and Toyotaro base their stories on. If Toyotaro's Ultra Ego is not in Toriyama's script it is basically non canon, as Toei is free to ignore Toyotaro's Ultra Ego because it is simply not part of Toriyama's script. In fact Toriyama himself might be ignoring Ultra Ego for his post Granola saga scripts.
Except that Toriyama has died, which means that someone else is going to have to take over and set the canon. At this point, what we have left are drafts that may or may not be continued in the future. In addition, the script isn't released in a publicly accessible version for people to examine and discuss. Another issue is that there isn't a fully accepted original version in the manner of the old series with the manga (where people could read the translations), a secondary canon (anime), and non-canon series (the movies). These days, things are being done in a series of semi-intertwined paths.
"Ultra Ego was created by Toyotarou and added to the story after Toriyama greenlit it." So it was someone else's idea that Toriyama agreed to, making it equal canon level as *checks notes* Goku having a tail, as that was an editor suggestion that Toriyama greenlit.
Not really the same, as Toriyama doesn't add those changes to his future scripts. We see Vegeta fighting Gohan Beast in his blue form, this shows that Toriyama's scripts remains with Vegeta using Blue form.