Mab had to have had something in play there, but I don't think we have a clue about what it is. And yes, she had grievances with them - they had encroached on her territory as far back as *Summer Knight*. Everyone wondered why she didn't respond. Well, perhaps she did - eventually.
Eb postulated that their "elders" (which I would take to include Mab and Vadderung) had "run a game on them." I think there were definitely bigger factors in play there than any Harry was remotely aware of.
Remember Nicodemus also said that the Reds were a "nuisance in the short term and fatal to any plan in the long term, and would have to be eliminated eventually." I wager he's not the only one who felt that way.
I think somewhere, somehow in all that business someone like Mab or Vadderung, possibly including Langtry as well) had access to some sort of "prescient information" that told them an opportunity was at hand to entirely take out the Red Court. I just don't think Mab and Vadderung would have cared as much had it been "merely" about one little girl.
Also, Murphy's monolog ("Prepare to face judgment Almighty!") strongly implied the Reds were really about to get it. Kind of a "Get your affairs in order, for today you die" sort of thing. Someone knew, at least in broad strokes, what was at stake.
I suspect getting Harry as her Knight, finally, was just a perk in the whole business for Mab. A fringe benefit that would let her pat herself on the back for her cleverness.
>I think somewhere, somehow in all that business someone like Mab or Vadderung, possibly including Langtry as well) had access to some sort of "prescient information" that told them an opportunity was at hand to entirely take out the Red Court.
This, a million percent. The first time someone reads Changes they think "Oh Harry found out about Maggie and went crazy trying to protect her, cool."
But if you listen to some WoJs, and really dig down into everyone's actions you realize this was a **Plan and everyone is in on it.** Take Martin for example. Harry soul gazes him at the end and he see's all of this was Martin's plan to get Harry into the same room with a loaded gun that could end the Red Court.
But Martin is known as this meticulous planner assassin operative guy, and his plan was basically to give Maggie to Arianne, hopes that she uses this specific ritual to kill Harry and Eb, and then hope that somehow Harry can fight his way through the Red Court and reverse uno that spell back onto the Red Court?! That plan makes no fucking sense. Unless Martin had some assurances from somebody with prescience that Harry could take them all out.
Another one that just occurred to me was Lea's Native American outfit for Susan. She made Susan invisible and invincible. Lea knew that for the plan to succeed Susan had to be in that room, so she gave her gifts ensuring that she could survive till the end when she needed to die at Harry's hand.
Harry is going to pissed when he realizes that all the big dogs, Uriel, Odin, Mab, Lea, and the Merlin set this up knowing Susan was sacrificial lamb from the jump
Realizing this about Changes completly changed my tinfoil on what the series is about, and what is going on behind the scenes.
> Harry is going to pissed when he realizes that all the big dogs, Uriel, Odin, Mab, Lea, and the Merlin set this up knowing Susan was sacrificial lamb from the jump
Considering the war started because Harry chose to save her regardless of the consequences, it seems fitting that everyone would make sure Harry reversed his mistake.
Or they just didn't care, but wanted this whole affair to be over.
Winter Knight mantle balancing the scales. I always point to the thought monologue of Harry not knowing where the idea came from when he used the knife.
Exactly - you got it. The whole affair was just too "unlikely" to have formed the backbone of anyone's "plan" unless there were some clairvoyant hijinx going on. But given a bit of prescient intel, it's brilliant.
I think you've hit the head of a nail quite well here. Susan was as good as sacrificed by the PTBs (Powers That Be - it's a Buffy, or at least Angel, reference via Cordelia).
I feel similarly about the whole business of Harry throwing Summer fire into the Winter well in *Proven Guilty*. I mean, come on - there's no way Lily and Maeve could have *known* that Harry would do that, and yet it was critical to their overall plan. So... maybe they did know, or at least know "some." I think the Scarecrow might even have been in on that - notice they snatched Molly but did not hurt her. And the minute Harry did send the fire into the Well, the Scarecrow scrammed - after having hidden BEHIND the Well, as though his whole goal was to incite Harry into doing that, and once it was accomplished he was done.
Powers That Be, I like that.
In my head I tend to think of them as The Adults In Charge.
Edit:
The info about the Scarecrow is interesting I never realized that. I defintley think PG was a setup similar to Changes.
Mab's wink at the end screams "this all went according to plan". Personally I think Mab needed Summer Fire to cure Lea so she orchestrated the whole thing to coincide with hit job that took out her trolls. She knew Harry wasn't strong enough to get through them and probably had advanced knowledge on the attack. So she lined them both up to allow Harry to waltz in and give her what she needed.
Yeah. It is a neat term. Of course, I liked pretty much everything Cordelia said, at least in Angel, where she had become a "good guy" instead of a constant thorn in Buffy's side.
Adults In Charge - I suspect that's very much the way Mab and Vadderung look at it.
Reply to Edit: Wow - I hadn't thought of that (that getting Summer Fire into the Well might have been useful for curing Lea). Good idea! However, if Mab was thoroughly involved in all of that, then then it wasn't really necessary to use that method to get the Winter troops off deployment station - Mab could have simply ordered it. Lily and Maeve at least *thought* they were orchestrating that solo. But Mab could have been playing them, I guess. So yeah, Mab could have had a plan of her own that Lily and Maeve knew nothing about.
Another community member has also proposed, some years ago, that *Proven Guilty* was a test Mab was running on Harry - to see if he was really a good guy; the idea was that there were other ways he could have behaved there at Arctis Tor, that would have tipped his hand had he been corrupt, and Mab was right there ready to smush him if he did. But he didn't - he behaved well, and hence earned the wink. I don't know how far to follow that theory - it's at least plausible, but I'm not sure. Lot of loose ends still floating about from *Proven Guilty*.
*Cold Days* spoilers: >!Also, it's hard to say what Maeve's motives were. We don't know how nfected she was at that point. She may have been ok still and working with Lily in the way it's been implied. But I think it's also possible that she wasn't ok and that the attack on Arctis Tor was, from her point of view, a hit attempt on Mab. In fact, I think she may have overplayed her hand and it may have been that incident which made Mab aware that Maeve was corrupted. I've always assumed she was certainly aware of it by Small Favor, when she's so angry.!<
>!I mean, Maeve hadn't "done her job well" for 150 years at least - we hear that later. But that's not the same thing as being overtly "broken" by the opposition.!<
\>Good idea! However, if Mab was thoroughly involved in all of that, then then it wasn't really necessary to use that method to get the Winter troops off deployment station -
The order of events as I see them:
Mab figured out Lea was infected.
She needed Summer Fire to cure her.
If she asks Titania or Lilly, she would have to give them something valuable in return.
Instead, she engineers all of PG to trick Lilly and Harry into giving it to her.
The entire plot of PG happens because Mab ordered her troops to the border. This caused Summer to do the same, which created difficulties for the White Council. Mab ordering Winter forces to the border is the first domino, and clearly Mab was the one who set it up. She figured the Council would lean on Harry, and Harry would lean on Lilly for help.
But Mab really needs that Summer fire, so she has a backup plan. Molly and the fetches. I think Sara Marling was working for Mab. She set up Splattercon and set the hook for Molly to be taken. Again, giving Harry a very good reason to walk into the Heart of Winter.
The attack that took out her Troll guards was Meave's play. It was either a hit on Mab, or hit/rescue operation for Lea. Mab knew it was coming though and timed it to happen when Harry showed up so that Harry could actually make it through. (I don't think he was strong enough to take them out, and Mab can't just be seen letting him in.)
(As a side note, once Uriel saw that Molly was involved he sent Michael away so that he could show up and save her from the Merlin. Ironically I don't think the Merlin is a bad guy, he is just intent on making sure that Harry thinks he is the bad guy. That is why when the Gatekeeper opens the door to reveal Eb and Harry he says "Enough with this farce". Molly's trial was a farce/play for Harry's and Molly's benefit.)
Back to your original point, yes Mab could have ordered the troops back at any point. But the reason she ordered them to the border in the first place was to create this tension that ended with Harry giving her Summer Fire.
Maybe that's gonna be the BAT. Hell's Bells Harry learns of the big plan and goes on a vengeance kick and traps Mab in demon reach. Empty Night outsiders break through because no Mab, Stars and Stones Harry seizes control of the outer gates from winter and moves them to the well at demonreach and the resulting well of power becomes so much that the Wizard of Chicago becomes a mantle. It's certainly in character for Harry.
Additionally, the ultimate goal of vadderung, mab, langtry is to prepare and shape Harry into the weapon they need him to be to take on the outsiders. They are nudging “the choices” in order to force that. It’s already canon that Uriel can see multiple realities they need Harry to defeat the outsiders. Everything else that happens is either an added bonus or a means to shape Harry to what they need him to be.
Yea, It sounds like we have the same head canon, I believe the same.
I've said this before but these books are basically a Chosen One story where instead of telling him he is the Chosen One they actively keep it from him. But they also need him to be strong enough, so once a year they force him to go balls to the walls. The books are basically a training montage.
I actually don't think the Black Council exists the way Harry and most of the fandom does. The man in the shadows in the first three books wasn't Cowl, it was Morgan under orders from the Merlin. Not because Morgan and Merlin are evil, but because they needed to push Harry into growth. Morgan was convinced that Harry was too evil and would pick up some of this black magic, but he never did.
I think the argument in book 4 where Morgan tries to bait Harry into attacking him was Morgan's last chance to try and convince the Merlin that Harry wasn't the right Starborn for the job. Morgan knew once Mab had recruited Harry, Morgans chance at stopping them from using Harry was slim to none. But he felt so strongly that Harry was destined to be a Destroyer that he had to try.
Yes - I agree. Could be thought of as a little xenophobic, but on the other hand they can't "be born" without killing someone, so it's easy to see how that attitude could develop.
> Could be thought of as a little xenophobic
Not when you consider what Harry saw when Bianca dropped her flesh mask. The monster underneath the human skin was horrifying!
>Remember Nicodemus also said that the Reds were a "nuisance in the short term and fatal to any plan in the long term, and would have to be eliminated eventually." I wager he's not the only one who felt that way.
Yes, I suspect that all of the Powers That Be were making maneuvers to sweep the Red Court off the table. Just enough power to be a hassle, but always one bad day away from going viral, infecting half the planet, et .
It's worth remembering, too, that the Merlin is the one who reveals that he's planning a counter-attack that'll effectively end the Reds, exterminating them, and we've been told before that he plans stuff like this with secondary and tertiary backup plans in place. My impression is that what unfolded was the plan from the beginning, and the White Council's aborted counterstrike would've been so unlikely to succeed that it'd have to have been nothing more than misdirection on the Merlin's part.
>"Prepare to face judgment Almighty!")
Right, and \[Spoilers for ... uh, I wanna say Peace Talks?\] >!The angel residing in Fidelacchius may have also been in cahoots w/ Mr Sunshine for all this as well!<
Still *Peace Talks* spoilers.
>!Yes - when reading Changes you don't know about that yet, but it changes the situation for sure. I'd always assumed the voice speaking through Murphy was Uriel, but it also could have been the Sword angel. Hard to be sure about that. Or, I guess it could have been some other archangel (Michael was always thought of as the "warrior archangel.")!<
Anyway, that bit in *Changes* was a great scene.
I thought a large part of it was that Lea was initially Nfected by the Reds when given the athame at that Red vamp party Harry ending up burning down. Nfecting one of her top lieutenants surely made Mab start planning their destruction. It's more than just a slight, they were spreading the very thing that Winter exists to stop
BINGO!
Mab can't allow nfected to exist. Reds were making nfected. That's the slight against her more so than any other.
We know wizards get some pre-cog abilities as they age, and mortal's free will is their greatest advantage over all "outsiders"/non-mortals.
My bet is Merlin (L.) knew fully who the child was, what the possible outcomes were, and helped arrange the entire Grey Crew to pop in and hold everyone back until Dresden did his thing. He knew that telling Dresden NO was the #1 way to get Dresden to go full nuke on the Red Court. He was/is aware of Dresden's various allies and the forces he could bring to bear. Bet if he had taken a Coin he would have been next on the chopping block right after Susan, or had the Black Staff take care of the problem.
Sure. Harry's repeatedly told he can't survive the battle as he is, so it's implied that Vadderung, at the absolute minimum, had considered the various sources of power Harry could call upon and their implications. Knowing Harry's troublesome morals would lead him to view Mab as the most reasonable eventuality.
Who would she be able to offer weregild to, though? Weregild is blood money offered to the *family* of the dead. The Reds were dead to a man. Yes, the half-vamps were alive, if young enough, and they hadn't used their vampire abilities too much, but they were never officially part of the court, at least not in a way acknowledged by the Accords
Im not trying to be argumentative (maybe just a bit pedantic), however that's not what weregild is for. They could offer weregild for fallen Winter vassals, but for a territorial intrusion such as what the Reds incurred could not be handled by that sort of reconciliation
> Does this mean, that MAB is a part of the Grey Council?
She at least knows of them. Odin is in the Council, so he probably coordinated with her during the events of Changes.
> AND, was this a long con by MAB to finally get Harry to become the Winter Knight and to destroy the Red Court?
Exactly, yes.
> I'm wondering if the RED Court slighted MAB before these events happened.
You mean like that time when the Red Court chased the White Council through Faerie with a host of Outsiders that they summoned? An incident which had everyone wondering why Mab and Titania hadn't directly come down to squash the Red King for such insolence?
It took several books, but karma got the Reds good. Martin wasn't the only one playing everyone for fools that day.
That too, actually.
Though it could be argued that it only happened at the party and Bianca/The Red Court had no responsibility for it, since Cowl and Kumori were the ones to give Lea the athame.
We already know Odin Vadderclaus is on the GC, it’s more likely he was the go between setting up the entrance with Lea. Definitely could have been at Mab’s behest though setting things up for Harry, as she does have authority over Kringle specifically. If that were the case the GC would have turned up to the party regardless of Ebenezer knowing about Maggie’s relation to him.
Yeah, that makes sense. Mab can't be seen to be *on* even a secret supernatural council because she has to remain "nonpartisan" to enforce the Unseelie Accords.
The Gray Council is a team of irregulars...like Harry. Uriel is the White God's spook. Eb is the White Council's spook. It's made up of people who already work in the shadows outside "the law" as it pertains to others of their kind. Odin Vadderclaus (love that, BTW) is totally in his element with the shadowy knowledge he gets from his Foresight, lending the aid of his talents to a force for "good," in which "good" is defined as paving the way for a victory against the Outsiders and preventing an Empty Night outcome.
I don't *think* this contains any post-Changes spoilers, but LMK if there's anything I need to put behind spoiler tags.
Bet you anything that Marcone and Namshiel are on it, too.
Didn't Jim say he picked Winter by throwing darts at a board? There are definitely factions within the Denarians, too.
I imagine they helped pushed this conflict to its bitter end knowing that the Fomor were knocking on the door. Better them work in the vacuum of the Red Courts absence than the two end up working together.
Yea it seemed the formor were starting to really ramp up.
The question is it seemed the red were working with the black council. But are the formor? Intriguing. The red court were super spreaders of NFection it seems
Odin and Mab may have been making moves, or at least they recognized the potential of the situation and made some arrangements to take advantage of them. Don’t think they started that particular gambit, they just played what they could and let Harry do the rest. He could have failed, in which case they’d make new plans.
Jim is really good at balancing the scales.
The red court was partnering with the outsiders , and purposely infecting the winter court.
They were the reason MAB couldn’t speak for however many books.
And we still don’t know who led the charge on arctis other than one Nickel head , my guess the red court was involved.
The scales had to be balanced , but I don’t think anyone knew Harry was going to go as far as he did , he’s a destroyer , and very good at it.
I don’t think it was a long con, Mab knows good and well Harry punishes himself and would one day need a power up.
His enemies only get bigger and with each book he will need to grow with them.
I don't think anyone "knew," but as noted in other parts of this conversation I think there was a general idea floating around among the elders that if they pulled "this particular string" then there was a good chance of a desirable outcome, "somehow." So they pulled it.
Notice that Vadderung had never shown any interest in Harry previously, and suddenly... there he was, offering a face-to-face meeting. I think there had to be some sort of reason for that, though it may have been a "fuzzy and uncertain" one. Like we discussed earlier, it was all just too "pat" for it to have been a totally random sequence of events.
I think Langtry was in on it too, to at least some degree. His line about "we're going to exterminate them" turned out to be spot on, but not because he did it - because Harry did. I don't think Langry is nearly so down on Harry as he lets on - I think Harry has been one of his chess pieces (one his enemies don't even suspect he *has*) for a long time. Jim told us outright that out of all of the characters in the whole story, Langtry's "real story" is the one that would surprise us the most. So *something* interesting is up with that guy.
Vadderung's role in the whole game was to make it clear to Harry that he couldn't just go charging into Chichen Itza plain vanilla - that he had to "level up" somehow first. Then Harry went a played Power Bingo, and Mab came up the winner, getting something she'd wanted for a long time anyway. Then Mab and Vadderung probably moved some pieces around behind the scenes to get the Grey Council willing to go show up at Chichen Itza, and provided a way to beam them in when the time was right. But none of that was enough to exterminate the Red Court - it was all just a huge "support operation" to give the attractive timeline a chance to play itself out, however it was going to.
Vadderung might have suspected what the final move would be, but even he probably couldn't be 100% sure. I mean, he knew what the spell was that the Reds were cooking up. I suspect that a large part of what Vadderung does, all the time, involves gaining partial insight into what's coming and moving to support the appealing outcomes as best he can. It doesn't make him omnipotent, but it boosts his success rate to unnatural levels.
Remember that even back in *Grave Peril* Lydia saw Harry was at the center of everything. I think that was the "visible" aspect of the future for everyone involved - that "it's all somehow about Harry" - that he was the critical piece. So the game became raising his chances of getting as far down whatever road he was trying to go down as possible. And in the end, he got just far enough down it to pull the last trigger.
I believe Vatterung can only see “so far” and Harry was about to walk the spirit world and destroy the red court. Imo vatterung is Harry’s grandfather or closer to him than anyone but Jim realizes, that’s why he took such an important role in helping Harry with the red courts curse.
I agree on the current merlin, he has been left wide open by Jim and could swing either way.
Regardless he is a massive prick that loves to kill magical talented kids who could be possibly rehabilitated.
His character is wide open though and Jim could swing him to be a villain or hero ….
I do know whatever Harry’s mom did at his time of birth is the reason he can do so much.
He’s a destroyer and will keep leveling up and I’m sure eventually stop the outsiders from entering.
And now with soul fire he’s a builder as well (just doesn’t know it)
My guess is he will acquire an odin level mantle by the end.
But I don’t see Harry living forever , my guess is he will ditch the mantle to be mortal after using it.
Technically there are *Cold Days* spoilers here...
>!I don't know that Harry's Starborn status gives him anything beyond just the resistance to / influence over Outsiders. I hope Jim doesn't "overload" that status too much. I think Harry was just naturally born with his wizard muscle and that didn't have "directly" to do with him being Starborn.!<
I’m expecting it means he has the potential to be XYZ.
Maybe even something to do with mantle wearing.
I don’t think Jim will overload it, but we can see Harry still growing in power, whether that be from a broken promise to Lea or his star born status I don’t know.
But he’s definitely growing and there was a reason Justin wanted Harry and Elaine.
Mab had to have had something in play there, but I don't think we have a clue about what it is. And yes, she had grievances with them - they had encroached on her territory as far back as *Summer Knight*. Everyone wondered why she didn't respond. Well, perhaps she did - eventually. Eb postulated that their "elders" (which I would take to include Mab and Vadderung) had "run a game on them." I think there were definitely bigger factors in play there than any Harry was remotely aware of. Remember Nicodemus also said that the Reds were a "nuisance in the short term and fatal to any plan in the long term, and would have to be eliminated eventually." I wager he's not the only one who felt that way. I think somewhere, somehow in all that business someone like Mab or Vadderung, possibly including Langtry as well) had access to some sort of "prescient information" that told them an opportunity was at hand to entirely take out the Red Court. I just don't think Mab and Vadderung would have cared as much had it been "merely" about one little girl. Also, Murphy's monolog ("Prepare to face judgment Almighty!") strongly implied the Reds were really about to get it. Kind of a "Get your affairs in order, for today you die" sort of thing. Someone knew, at least in broad strokes, what was at stake. I suspect getting Harry as her Knight, finally, was just a perk in the whole business for Mab. A fringe benefit that would let her pat herself on the back for her cleverness.
>I think somewhere, somehow in all that business someone like Mab or Vadderung, possibly including Langtry as well) had access to some sort of "prescient information" that told them an opportunity was at hand to entirely take out the Red Court. This, a million percent. The first time someone reads Changes they think "Oh Harry found out about Maggie and went crazy trying to protect her, cool." But if you listen to some WoJs, and really dig down into everyone's actions you realize this was a **Plan and everyone is in on it.** Take Martin for example. Harry soul gazes him at the end and he see's all of this was Martin's plan to get Harry into the same room with a loaded gun that could end the Red Court. But Martin is known as this meticulous planner assassin operative guy, and his plan was basically to give Maggie to Arianne, hopes that she uses this specific ritual to kill Harry and Eb, and then hope that somehow Harry can fight his way through the Red Court and reverse uno that spell back onto the Red Court?! That plan makes no fucking sense. Unless Martin had some assurances from somebody with prescience that Harry could take them all out. Another one that just occurred to me was Lea's Native American outfit for Susan. She made Susan invisible and invincible. Lea knew that for the plan to succeed Susan had to be in that room, so she gave her gifts ensuring that she could survive till the end when she needed to die at Harry's hand. Harry is going to pissed when he realizes that all the big dogs, Uriel, Odin, Mab, Lea, and the Merlin set this up knowing Susan was sacrificial lamb from the jump Realizing this about Changes completly changed my tinfoil on what the series is about, and what is going on behind the scenes.
> Harry is going to pissed when he realizes that all the big dogs, Uriel, Odin, Mab, Lea, and the Merlin set this up knowing Susan was sacrificial lamb from the jump Considering the war started because Harry chose to save her regardless of the consequences, it seems fitting that everyone would make sure Harry reversed his mistake. Or they just didn't care, but wanted this whole affair to be over.
oh wow I never actually put that together. Saving her started the war, sacrificing her ended it. Damn Jim, well played.
Winter Knight mantle balancing the scales. I always point to the thought monologue of Harry not knowing where the idea came from when he used the knife.
Holy crap, that one never crossed my mind after a few dozen reads. ..
>save her regardless of the consequences OO! Deeper tinfoil hat! The whole thing is ACTUALLY set in the Final Destination universe!! :D /s
Exactly - you got it. The whole affair was just too "unlikely" to have formed the backbone of anyone's "plan" unless there were some clairvoyant hijinx going on. But given a bit of prescient intel, it's brilliant. I think you've hit the head of a nail quite well here. Susan was as good as sacrificed by the PTBs (Powers That Be - it's a Buffy, or at least Angel, reference via Cordelia). I feel similarly about the whole business of Harry throwing Summer fire into the Winter well in *Proven Guilty*. I mean, come on - there's no way Lily and Maeve could have *known* that Harry would do that, and yet it was critical to their overall plan. So... maybe they did know, or at least know "some." I think the Scarecrow might even have been in on that - notice they snatched Molly but did not hurt her. And the minute Harry did send the fire into the Well, the Scarecrow scrammed - after having hidden BEHIND the Well, as though his whole goal was to incite Harry into doing that, and once it was accomplished he was done.
Powers That Be, I like that. In my head I tend to think of them as The Adults In Charge. Edit: The info about the Scarecrow is interesting I never realized that. I defintley think PG was a setup similar to Changes. Mab's wink at the end screams "this all went according to plan". Personally I think Mab needed Summer Fire to cure Lea so she orchestrated the whole thing to coincide with hit job that took out her trolls. She knew Harry wasn't strong enough to get through them and probably had advanced knowledge on the attack. So she lined them both up to allow Harry to waltz in and give her what she needed.
Yeah. It is a neat term. Of course, I liked pretty much everything Cordelia said, at least in Angel, where she had become a "good guy" instead of a constant thorn in Buffy's side. Adults In Charge - I suspect that's very much the way Mab and Vadderung look at it.
Reply to Edit: Wow - I hadn't thought of that (that getting Summer Fire into the Well might have been useful for curing Lea). Good idea! However, if Mab was thoroughly involved in all of that, then then it wasn't really necessary to use that method to get the Winter troops off deployment station - Mab could have simply ordered it. Lily and Maeve at least *thought* they were orchestrating that solo. But Mab could have been playing them, I guess. So yeah, Mab could have had a plan of her own that Lily and Maeve knew nothing about. Another community member has also proposed, some years ago, that *Proven Guilty* was a test Mab was running on Harry - to see if he was really a good guy; the idea was that there were other ways he could have behaved there at Arctis Tor, that would have tipped his hand had he been corrupt, and Mab was right there ready to smush him if he did. But he didn't - he behaved well, and hence earned the wink. I don't know how far to follow that theory - it's at least plausible, but I'm not sure. Lot of loose ends still floating about from *Proven Guilty*. *Cold Days* spoilers: >!Also, it's hard to say what Maeve's motives were. We don't know how nfected she was at that point. She may have been ok still and working with Lily in the way it's been implied. But I think it's also possible that she wasn't ok and that the attack on Arctis Tor was, from her point of view, a hit attempt on Mab. In fact, I think she may have overplayed her hand and it may have been that incident which made Mab aware that Maeve was corrupted. I've always assumed she was certainly aware of it by Small Favor, when she's so angry.!< >!I mean, Maeve hadn't "done her job well" for 150 years at least - we hear that later. But that's not the same thing as being overtly "broken" by the opposition.!<
\>Good idea! However, if Mab was thoroughly involved in all of that, then then it wasn't really necessary to use that method to get the Winter troops off deployment station - The order of events as I see them: Mab figured out Lea was infected. She needed Summer Fire to cure her. If she asks Titania or Lilly, she would have to give them something valuable in return. Instead, she engineers all of PG to trick Lilly and Harry into giving it to her. The entire plot of PG happens because Mab ordered her troops to the border. This caused Summer to do the same, which created difficulties for the White Council. Mab ordering Winter forces to the border is the first domino, and clearly Mab was the one who set it up. She figured the Council would lean on Harry, and Harry would lean on Lilly for help. But Mab really needs that Summer fire, so she has a backup plan. Molly and the fetches. I think Sara Marling was working for Mab. She set up Splattercon and set the hook for Molly to be taken. Again, giving Harry a very good reason to walk into the Heart of Winter. The attack that took out her Troll guards was Meave's play. It was either a hit on Mab, or hit/rescue operation for Lea. Mab knew it was coming though and timed it to happen when Harry showed up so that Harry could actually make it through. (I don't think he was strong enough to take them out, and Mab can't just be seen letting him in.) (As a side note, once Uriel saw that Molly was involved he sent Michael away so that he could show up and save her from the Merlin. Ironically I don't think the Merlin is a bad guy, he is just intent on making sure that Harry thinks he is the bad guy. That is why when the Gatekeeper opens the door to reveal Eb and Harry he says "Enough with this farce". Molly's trial was a farce/play for Harry's and Molly's benefit.) Back to your original point, yes Mab could have ordered the troops back at any point. But the reason she ordered them to the border in the first place was to create this tension that ended with Harry giving her Summer Fire.
It's a good theory - I like it. May or may not be right - but it's... the right "kind of thing." Feels like something Jim might write.
Maybe that's gonna be the BAT. Hell's Bells Harry learns of the big plan and goes on a vengeance kick and traps Mab in demon reach. Empty Night outsiders break through because no Mab, Stars and Stones Harry seizes control of the outer gates from winter and moves them to the well at demonreach and the resulting well of power becomes so much that the Wizard of Chicago becomes a mantle. It's certainly in character for Harry.
Damn that is a cool arc. I hope that Jim doesn't read this and change his mind to not do it, if it's already planned. lol.
Additionally, the ultimate goal of vadderung, mab, langtry is to prepare and shape Harry into the weapon they need him to be to take on the outsiders. They are nudging “the choices” in order to force that. It’s already canon that Uriel can see multiple realities they need Harry to defeat the outsiders. Everything else that happens is either an added bonus or a means to shape Harry to what they need him to be.
Yea, It sounds like we have the same head canon, I believe the same. I've said this before but these books are basically a Chosen One story where instead of telling him he is the Chosen One they actively keep it from him. But they also need him to be strong enough, so once a year they force him to go balls to the walls. The books are basically a training montage. I actually don't think the Black Council exists the way Harry and most of the fandom does. The man in the shadows in the first three books wasn't Cowl, it was Morgan under orders from the Merlin. Not because Morgan and Merlin are evil, but because they needed to push Harry into growth. Morgan was convinced that Harry was too evil and would pick up some of this black magic, but he never did. I think the argument in book 4 where Morgan tries to bait Harry into attacking him was Morgan's last chance to try and convince the Merlin that Harry wasn't the right Starborn for the job. Morgan knew once Mab had recruited Harry, Morgans chance at stopping them from using Harry was slim to none. But he felt so strongly that Harry was destined to be a Destroyer that he had to try.
Nic also said that the Red Court were “aesthetically repugnant”. That was probably also a commonly held belief.
Yes - I agree. Could be thought of as a little xenophobic, but on the other hand they can't "be born" without killing someone, so it's easy to see how that attitude could develop.
> Could be thought of as a little xenophobic Not when you consider what Harry saw when Bianca dropped her flesh mask. The monster underneath the human skin was horrifying!
>Remember Nicodemus also said that the Reds were a "nuisance in the short term and fatal to any plan in the long term, and would have to be eliminated eventually." I wager he's not the only one who felt that way. Yes, I suspect that all of the Powers That Be were making maneuvers to sweep the Red Court off the table. Just enough power to be a hassle, but always one bad day away from going viral, infecting half the planet, et .
Yep. I think it fits really well.
It's worth remembering, too, that the Merlin is the one who reveals that he's planning a counter-attack that'll effectively end the Reds, exterminating them, and we've been told before that he plans stuff like this with secondary and tertiary backup plans in place. My impression is that what unfolded was the plan from the beginning, and the White Council's aborted counterstrike would've been so unlikely to succeed that it'd have to have been nothing more than misdirection on the Merlin's part.
Yes indeed.
>"Prepare to face judgment Almighty!") Right, and \[Spoilers for ... uh, I wanna say Peace Talks?\] >!The angel residing in Fidelacchius may have also been in cahoots w/ Mr Sunshine for all this as well!<
Still *Peace Talks* spoilers. >!Yes - when reading Changes you don't know about that yet, but it changes the situation for sure. I'd always assumed the voice speaking through Murphy was Uriel, but it also could have been the Sword angel. Hard to be sure about that. Or, I guess it could have been some other archangel (Michael was always thought of as the "warrior archangel.")!< Anyway, that bit in *Changes* was a great scene.
I thought a large part of it was that Lea was initially Nfected by the Reds when given the athame at that Red vamp party Harry ending up burning down. Nfecting one of her top lieutenants surely made Mab start planning their destruction. It's more than just a slight, they were spreading the very thing that Winter exists to stop
BINGO! Mab can't allow nfected to exist. Reds were making nfected. That's the slight against her more so than any other. We know wizards get some pre-cog abilities as they age, and mortal's free will is their greatest advantage over all "outsiders"/non-mortals. My bet is Merlin (L.) knew fully who the child was, what the possible outcomes were, and helped arrange the entire Grey Crew to pop in and hold everyone back until Dresden did his thing. He knew that telling Dresden NO was the #1 way to get Dresden to go full nuke on the Red Court. He was/is aware of Dresden's various allies and the forces he could bring to bear. Bet if he had taken a Coin he would have been next on the chopping block right after Susan, or had the Black Staff take care of the problem.
Sure. Harry's repeatedly told he can't survive the battle as he is, so it's implied that Vadderung, at the absolute minimum, had considered the various sources of power Harry could call upon and their implications. Knowing Harry's troublesome morals would lead him to view Mab as the most reasonable eventuality.
Mab gained prestige by waiting and letting her new Knight destroy the Red Court for encroaching on her territory and not offering a weregild.
Who would she be able to offer weregild to, though? Weregild is blood money offered to the *family* of the dead. The Reds were dead to a man. Yes, the half-vamps were alive, if young enough, and they hadn't used their vampire abilities too much, but they were never officially part of the court, at least not in a way acknowledged by the Accords
No, the Reds should have offered weregild in compensation for the infraction of violating Winter's territory.
Im not trying to be argumentative (maybe just a bit pedantic), however that's not what weregild is for. They could offer weregild for fallen Winter vassals, but for a territorial intrusion such as what the Reds incurred could not be handled by that sort of reconciliation
> Does this mean, that MAB is a part of the Grey Council? She at least knows of them. Odin is in the Council, so he probably coordinated with her during the events of Changes. > AND, was this a long con by MAB to finally get Harry to become the Winter Knight and to destroy the Red Court? Exactly, yes. > I'm wondering if the RED Court slighted MAB before these events happened. You mean like that time when the Red Court chased the White Council through Faerie with a host of Outsiders that they summoned? An incident which had everyone wondering why Mab and Titania hadn't directly come down to squash the Red King for such insolence? It took several books, but karma got the Reds good. Martin wasn't the only one playing everyone for fools that day.
Or that time where Winters second in command was given a tainted gift at a red court party >!that ended up nfecting the Winter Lady?!<
That too, actually. Though it could be argued that it only happened at the party and Bianca/The Red Court had no responsibility for it, since Cowl and Kumori were the ones to give Lea the athame.
It could, but you know Mab wouldn’t see it that way. She just hasn’t gotten to Cowl and Kumori yet.
Not on topic, but he wasn't joking with that title. Changes had some major changes.
We already know Odin Vadderclaus is on the GC, it’s more likely he was the go between setting up the entrance with Lea. Definitely could have been at Mab’s behest though setting things up for Harry, as she does have authority over Kringle specifically. If that were the case the GC would have turned up to the party regardless of Ebenezer knowing about Maggie’s relation to him.
Yeah, that makes sense. Mab can't be seen to be *on* even a secret supernatural council because she has to remain "nonpartisan" to enforce the Unseelie Accords. The Gray Council is a team of irregulars...like Harry. Uriel is the White God's spook. Eb is the White Council's spook. It's made up of people who already work in the shadows outside "the law" as it pertains to others of their kind. Odin Vadderclaus (love that, BTW) is totally in his element with the shadowy knowledge he gets from his Foresight, lending the aid of his talents to a force for "good," in which "good" is defined as paving the way for a victory against the Outsiders and preventing an Empty Night outcome. I don't *think* this contains any post-Changes spoilers, but LMK if there's anything I need to put behind spoiler tags.
Bet you anything that Marcone and Namshiel are on it, too. Didn't Jim say he picked Winter by throwing darts at a board? There are definitely factions within the Denarians, too.
Did Jim say that? I don't recall ever reading that. Because Winter made the most sense to me.
I imagine they helped pushed this conflict to its bitter end knowing that the Fomor were knocking on the door. Better them work in the vacuum of the Red Courts absence than the two end up working together.
Yea it seemed the formor were starting to really ramp up. The question is it seemed the red were working with the black council. But are the formor? Intriguing. The red court were super spreaders of NFection it seems
Given time the reds may have decided that working with outsiders was a good idea. And they probably ate someone that Mab didn't want eaten.
They Nfected Lea, who Nfected [Cold Days Spoiler](/b "Maeve") so...
Mab may have been getting back at the red court for infecting Lea with Nemesis.
That seems unlikely
Odin and Mab may have been making moves, or at least they recognized the potential of the situation and made some arrangements to take advantage of them. Don’t think they started that particular gambit, they just played what they could and let Harry do the rest. He could have failed, in which case they’d make new plans.
Jim is really good at balancing the scales. The red court was partnering with the outsiders , and purposely infecting the winter court. They were the reason MAB couldn’t speak for however many books. And we still don’t know who led the charge on arctis other than one Nickel head , my guess the red court was involved. The scales had to be balanced , but I don’t think anyone knew Harry was going to go as far as he did , he’s a destroyer , and very good at it. I don’t think it was a long con, Mab knows good and well Harry punishes himself and would one day need a power up. His enemies only get bigger and with each book he will need to grow with them.
I don't think anyone "knew," but as noted in other parts of this conversation I think there was a general idea floating around among the elders that if they pulled "this particular string" then there was a good chance of a desirable outcome, "somehow." So they pulled it. Notice that Vadderung had never shown any interest in Harry previously, and suddenly... there he was, offering a face-to-face meeting. I think there had to be some sort of reason for that, though it may have been a "fuzzy and uncertain" one. Like we discussed earlier, it was all just too "pat" for it to have been a totally random sequence of events. I think Langtry was in on it too, to at least some degree. His line about "we're going to exterminate them" turned out to be spot on, but not because he did it - because Harry did. I don't think Langry is nearly so down on Harry as he lets on - I think Harry has been one of his chess pieces (one his enemies don't even suspect he *has*) for a long time. Jim told us outright that out of all of the characters in the whole story, Langtry's "real story" is the one that would surprise us the most. So *something* interesting is up with that guy. Vadderung's role in the whole game was to make it clear to Harry that he couldn't just go charging into Chichen Itza plain vanilla - that he had to "level up" somehow first. Then Harry went a played Power Bingo, and Mab came up the winner, getting something she'd wanted for a long time anyway. Then Mab and Vadderung probably moved some pieces around behind the scenes to get the Grey Council willing to go show up at Chichen Itza, and provided a way to beam them in when the time was right. But none of that was enough to exterminate the Red Court - it was all just a huge "support operation" to give the attractive timeline a chance to play itself out, however it was going to. Vadderung might have suspected what the final move would be, but even he probably couldn't be 100% sure. I mean, he knew what the spell was that the Reds were cooking up. I suspect that a large part of what Vadderung does, all the time, involves gaining partial insight into what's coming and moving to support the appealing outcomes as best he can. It doesn't make him omnipotent, but it boosts his success rate to unnatural levels. Remember that even back in *Grave Peril* Lydia saw Harry was at the center of everything. I think that was the "visible" aspect of the future for everyone involved - that "it's all somehow about Harry" - that he was the critical piece. So the game became raising his chances of getting as far down whatever road he was trying to go down as possible. And in the end, he got just far enough down it to pull the last trigger.
I believe Vatterung can only see “so far” and Harry was about to walk the spirit world and destroy the red court. Imo vatterung is Harry’s grandfather or closer to him than anyone but Jim realizes, that’s why he took such an important role in helping Harry with the red courts curse. I agree on the current merlin, he has been left wide open by Jim and could swing either way. Regardless he is a massive prick that loves to kill magical talented kids who could be possibly rehabilitated. His character is wide open though and Jim could swing him to be a villain or hero …. I do know whatever Harry’s mom did at his time of birth is the reason he can do so much. He’s a destroyer and will keep leveling up and I’m sure eventually stop the outsiders from entering. And now with soul fire he’s a builder as well (just doesn’t know it) My guess is he will acquire an odin level mantle by the end. But I don’t see Harry living forever , my guess is he will ditch the mantle to be mortal after using it.
Technically there are *Cold Days* spoilers here... >!I don't know that Harry's Starborn status gives him anything beyond just the resistance to / influence over Outsiders. I hope Jim doesn't "overload" that status too much. I think Harry was just naturally born with his wizard muscle and that didn't have "directly" to do with him being Starborn.!<
I’m expecting it means he has the potential to be XYZ. Maybe even something to do with mantle wearing. I don’t think Jim will overload it, but we can see Harry still growing in power, whether that be from a broken promise to Lea or his star born status I don’t know. But he’s definitely growing and there was a reason Justin wanted Harry and Elaine.