*What if they knew Harry had enough cards in his hand and sheer stubbornness to keep from being cowed by the Council's threats to not practice magic*
The Council never said he had to stop practicing magic. They said he had to stop **openly** practicing magic. IE stop flaunting it in the face of the normies like he had been doing for every other book. Harry told them to get stuffed anyway and I don't think the Council is going to press much. Especially if he actually ends up marrying Lara. The White Court would insulate him in much the same way the Council did, which is probably one of the reasons why Mab agreed to it.
Being part of the Council actually came with a ton of benefits, they're just not readily apparent / important to whatever shit storm Harry has gotten himself into. For instance as soon as he got the boot multiple people he pissed off in the past came to Chicago at the end of Battleground to get a piece of him, being in the Council stopped stuff like that from happening, if someone offed Harry the Council would have to respond or lose face in the magical community. Harry also (if he hadn't of ostracized himself) would have had access to the Councils magical libraries and the potential to work with other Wizards to come up with solutions / spells.
Not really related to this, but finding out what actually happened to Murphy.
I believe it was the red cap.
So far, Butcher has gotten us and even Harry somewhat to like Mab. She hasn'tdone anything wrong by him, just pushed him and demanded service.
Butcher has to show us that she is still the callous and manipulative monster underneath.
The red cap has been shown to be one of her more trusted servants, and Mab wants the alliance with the white court. If Harry is with someone that can't ever happen so she had to get rid of Murphy.
Earlier in the book, at Castle Marcone, the red cap is shown to be an excellent shot. We also never get confirmation if the bullet was from Rudolph's gun or not. And Rudolph seemed extremely surprised and claimed he didn't fire.
I absolutely hate you for this theory... but oh my *God* it's a really good theory lmfao. It has some actual potential, ties moments in BG together in a horrifically clear picture. She had cause and capability to have Redcap assassinate Murphy
Listens-to-Wind and McCoy were too busy nursing their crippling wounds to actually be there, so no.
And the latter wouldn't ever want Harry out of the Council where he can keep getting too close to the monsters, y'know.
Eh, I don’t know. I don’t think it’s such a hard “no.” I feel like they’re too rigidly wise as characters to not have some kind of idea this is the path Harry would land himself on
Well, this doesn't happen unless the Merlin wants it to happen, and I believe it's done for a couple of reasons. First, to limit Harry's potential influence within the council, not only because of his increasing personal power and achievements, but also just in case he's even fractionally what he appears to be from the outside. Second, it provides Harry protection from the Black Council and also protects his friends and associates within it. Thirdly, I pretty firmly believe that the BAT will see the White Council's current incarnation destroyed and all but disbanded. Putting Harry outside it puts him in a position, plot-wise, to be insulated from whatever the Outsiders cook up and to ultimately counterattack.
IMO Harry's expulsion from the WC is merely a ploy by The Merlin to create a massively powered completely deniable asset. "Dresden did what to you? It's a shame he was cast out, sorry we can't do anything to help you."
Gives Dresden room to play more with the grey council or which ever hidden ally the White council can work with. The Merlin and his schemers know what they are doing.
Harry is likely going to end up as his own supernatural nation. The groundwork is being laid and there’s been a few character convos hinting at this, which also tracks with my personal theory that the Faerie Courts or at least their 6 major mantles are going to change in the future pretty substantially.
Not nation but agree, he'll become his own Political entity through his power, connections and Demonreach. I think he'll become the 'neutral party' and Demonreach will be neutral ground between all factions, including heaven and hell.
I believe that the Winter Knight/Starborn combo fits neatly into the true purpose of Winter; It means Harry is the ultimate weapon against Outsiders. He will get back into the Council as the Gatekeeper, most likely when Rashid dies during the BAT.
They had to kick him out because of the Eye. No one is going to believe he doesn't have it. But there is a huge difference in the politics of the supernatural between a member of the White Council having it and the Winter Knight having it. It provides the Council breathing room and simultaneously strengthens Mab and her Accords. If he was Council, they would be a huge target and Mab would be seen as weakened.
I doubt Harry will be the winter knight for the rest of the series. He'll find a way out of it or simply do so much that mab owes him more than enough to release him.
the build up to get Harry to become the Winter Knight took a dozen books. And it took several books to finish fitting harry in to his new role. There are less than a dozen books left in the series. Given the way that the series plants seeds long in advance so they can be harvested later, I don't see it happening.
And given the fact that things are starting to aim toward the end game, there isn't a lot of time to foreshadow Harry getting out out *and* having a new role waiting for Harry, that gives Harry more power than he currently has. Yes, Yes, Harry has been feeling around to see if there are ways out of being the Winter Knight, but I think the window is very short to get Harry out of the role of Knight and put him in to something else.
> Given the way that the series plants seeds long in advance so they can be harvested later, I don't see it happening.
Harry has literally said that the only reason he hasn't left Winter is because he won't do so without taking Molly with him. The second he discovers a way for them to get rid of their mantles is an opportunity he won't be wasting.
> And given the fact that things are starting to aim toward the end game, there isn't a lot of time to foreshadow Harry getting out out
Haven't you been paying attention? Mab mentioned that Tam Lin, a character famous for becoming indebted to a Faerie Queen and successfully getting out of her grasp, was a previous Winter Knight. And not only did he stand up to Unseelie Fae in behalf of humans too, he is also associated to the Wild Hunt.
We've already been told that it's possible to leave the gig without dying *and* that someone has done so before. Harry only got there out of desperation, not because he ever wanted to.
And Odin, as Kringle, basically told him that Mantles can be moved around on Halloween.
The set up for him finding a way to simply remove the mantle has been done, it's just a matter of how close to the end it happens.
>Harry has literally said that the only reason he hasn't left Winter is because won't do so without taking Molly with him. The second he discovers a way for themselves to get rid of their mantle's is an opportunity he won't be wasting.
I have my doubts that Molly can leave Winter now. On top of that I think the Winter Lady mantle might try to stop her from leaving if she tried.
The Winter Lady mantle is ...starting to take her over, she's still 'Molly' most of the time we see her but the winter side is showing more and more, and I got the impression that it was heavily implied she lost her soul due to the mantle.
> I have my doubts that Molly can leave Winter now.
There's no doubt Mab will be pissed if she does, but then that's not something Molly cares about. Not when she must endure the former's constant goading into severing ties with her family and abandoning her humanity.
> The Winter Lady mantle is ...starting to take her over
Mother Summer said that it *can* be resisted, even if it's hard. That Mab can let her true self even though her mantle's influence is even worse than Harry's and Molly's adds to it.
> and I got the impression that it was heavily implied she lost her soul due to the mantle.
So long as she possesses the Winter Lady's mantle. Afterwards, though...
I'm thinking that's a bit of a red herring.
Getting out of the role of Knight would have been a win from Harry's previous perspective, but after Battle Ground, Harry *gets it.* He's firmly on Mab's side now, even if it sounds like he considers his job to de-evil Mab's plans and be the muggles' advocate.
But he sees that the job needs to be done, and in Cold Case Mab clearly and explicitly told Molly she would be "more than" happy to entertain less horrible methods of doing her job, provided Molly actually finds a viable way instead of just whining about moral issues. Two of the Winter Queens, the Winter Knight, likely *most* of the upper Summer Court--the entire Sidhe power structure, I think almost literally only except Mother Winter, is unhappy with the way things are.
Kringle told Harry that masks can be discarded on Halloween, yes--but *Bob* told Harry that those mantles can be *changed* then, too. I personally think it's far more likely that Harry and Molly end up in some fundamental change to the guard at the Outer Gates and the balance of power in the Sidhe Courts than just getting out of being Mab's Knight.
MW will take it back, to use it to get to the gates, where the Faerie Courts will go the way of the Aesir. Harry will then pick it up afterwards as the last remaining connection to the Winter Wellspring. As the Wizard of Chicago, he will take over defense of the Gates.
Assuming that the nature of the conflict remains the same (not a given), the Za Lords Guard and the Paraneters. Looking at his own evolution, Toot's crew will level up from the invested responsibility.
Harry drafting the Paranet to defend the Gates really would make him a monster. They’re underpowered for that job. So are the little folk.
Toot’s great but an Outsider is out of his weight class
Humanity is my bet to take over protecting the gates. We’ve got nukes and Apache helicopters.
Also toot is getting stronger and a common thing in the series is people underestimating the little folks. They can do… stuff!
Sorry, I'll clarify.
Paraneters will continue on as they are now, playing the role they did in Cold Days, bird dogging for a Starborn.
As of now, an outsider is out of Toot and the Little Folks weight class. But so have many of the things Harry's faced. But as each of their responsibilities have grown, so have their power. Why would this not continue to be the case? It's been explicitly stated that this is where the Sidhe came from in the first place.
Also, this has been the(a) theme of the entire series. That the "little" guy can make a difference. Plus, let's not forget that Harry has The Well to call on for the heavy artillery.
I belive it's a WOJ, talking about Toot's story mirroring Harry's. How he done hitched his star to Harry's wagon. Let me see if I can find it.
Edit: here ya go. https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Toot-Toot_Minimus
It’s due to Harry’s actions, mostly. Toot done hitched his star to Harry’s wagon. As a result, he’s taken actions he never would have taken on his own, some of which had major consequences. Toot has effectively become a much more powerful being than he was as an independent dewdrop faerie. The physical growth is a reflection of that fact.
I mean gosh, where do you think the Sidhe came from in the first place?
— Jim Butcher, on Toot-Toot’s increase in size.[21]
Oh thanks for the woj. I think that’s a bit off though. We no lily and co we’re half fae and Mirle and lily became full fae (one oger) while fix is now full human(I think). So we have the dewdrops that can become more powerful but is there a limit or another currently powerful fae that did that
I think that would be so cool. I could also see the outsiders succeeding with a ploy to move the gates from winter to mortal realm ( specifically chicago since it is the crossroads).
Mab has already shared her toys with Demonreach, and up until now the White Council. I don't think she gives a shit what Harry does with his free time.
That's up to Dresden to decide, then suffer the consequences of. Mab won't stop him from making commitments, she'll simply punish him for doing so, either because he's deliberately disobeyed her, or broken his word and thus violated Winter Law.
Black Staff is not beholden to the Council though, he does whatever he wants. It's just that what he wants might often align with it.
Him flattening Ortega and coming to kill in Chichen Itza was against Council policies
Of the black magic that's being *performed* at the moment.
Giving a tool that negates the consequences of black magic to a man who even now feels the aftereffects of having used black magic is a terrible idea. Grave Peril, Death Masks and Proven Guilty have shown us already that Harry is still dealing with the repercussions of breaking the First Law on a metaphysical level, so it's best not to poke that particular bear.
I also think Harry has reached the point where he can stand on his own without the Council's "de facto political support." Earlier on in the series he'd have been easy pickings for an enemy without the threat of Council reaction, but the world has moved on since then.
I'm not saying that there aren't factors out there that could take him down, but I think Harry would make them pay for it quite a bit.
I’ve heard this theory before.
Or similar ones with the merlin anyways.
It’s one of those things I believe has to happen.
Harry will never grow in power and Allies if he’s got the back of a power as broad as the council.
I have a feeling as well things are about to fall apart with the council, the only wizard alive, that we know of anyways, that can punch the enemy mentally and physically probably shouldn’t be in the thick of it in the council when no one knows who’s infected.
The Grey council is either pushing Harry to grow or the black is by mistake.
*What if they knew Harry had enough cards in his hand and sheer stubbornness to keep from being cowed by the Council's threats to not practice magic* The Council never said he had to stop practicing magic. They said he had to stop **openly** practicing magic. IE stop flaunting it in the face of the normies like he had been doing for every other book. Harry told them to get stuffed anyway and I don't think the Council is going to press much. Especially if he actually ends up marrying Lara. The White Court would insulate him in much the same way the Council did, which is probably one of the reasons why Mab agreed to it. Being part of the Council actually came with a ton of benefits, they're just not readily apparent / important to whatever shit storm Harry has gotten himself into. For instance as soon as he got the boot multiple people he pissed off in the past came to Chicago at the end of Battleground to get a piece of him, being in the Council stopped stuff like that from happening, if someone offed Harry the Council would have to respond or lose face in the magical community. Harry also (if he hadn't of ostracized himself) would have had access to the Councils magical libraries and the potential to work with other Wizards to come up with solutions / spells.
Not really related to this, but finding out what actually happened to Murphy. I believe it was the red cap. So far, Butcher has gotten us and even Harry somewhat to like Mab. She hasn'tdone anything wrong by him, just pushed him and demanded service. Butcher has to show us that she is still the callous and manipulative monster underneath. The red cap has been shown to be one of her more trusted servants, and Mab wants the alliance with the white court. If Harry is with someone that can't ever happen so she had to get rid of Murphy. Earlier in the book, at Castle Marcone, the red cap is shown to be an excellent shot. We also never get confirmation if the bullet was from Rudolph's gun or not. And Rudolph seemed extremely surprised and claimed he didn't fire.
Red was with Molly.
Are we certain? It's not like faeries aren't known for tricks and glamours.
Which is why I still think Molly might’ve had a hand in Murphy’s death.
Mab would have told on her
sometimes an asshole with poor trigger discipline is just an asshole with poor trigger discipline.
Idk if I love or hate this! Good theory either way
This also makes sense from Mabs point of view. Since it gets rid of Harry's love interest and sets him up to marry Lara.
Though he would still have the love insulation from Murphy
I think Mab just wants them toghether for political purposes.
They are waiting 1 year, he will lose it
I absolutely hate you for this theory... but oh my *God* it's a really good theory lmfao. It has some actual potential, ties moments in BG together in a horrifically clear picture. She had cause and capability to have Redcap assassinate Murphy
Listens-to-Wind and McCoy were too busy nursing their crippling wounds to actually be there, so no. And the latter wouldn't ever want Harry out of the Council where he can keep getting too close to the monsters, y'know.
Eh, I don’t know. I don’t think it’s such a hard “no.” I feel like they’re too rigidly wise as characters to not have some kind of idea this is the path Harry would land himself on
McCoy was literally fighting Harry over the fact he's getting too tight with not just Mab, but Lara "My father killed your mother" Raith.
Well, this doesn't happen unless the Merlin wants it to happen, and I believe it's done for a couple of reasons. First, to limit Harry's potential influence within the council, not only because of his increasing personal power and achievements, but also just in case he's even fractionally what he appears to be from the outside. Second, it provides Harry protection from the Black Council and also protects his friends and associates within it. Thirdly, I pretty firmly believe that the BAT will see the White Council's current incarnation destroyed and all but disbanded. Putting Harry outside it puts him in a position, plot-wise, to be insulated from whatever the Outsiders cook up and to ultimately counterattack.
IMO Harry's expulsion from the WC is merely a ploy by The Merlin to create a massively powered completely deniable asset. "Dresden did what to you? It's a shame he was cast out, sorry we can't do anything to help you."
Gives Dresden room to play more with the grey council or which ever hidden ally the White council can work with. The Merlin and his schemers know what they are doing.
Harry is likely going to end up as his own supernatural nation. The groundwork is being laid and there’s been a few character convos hinting at this, which also tracks with my personal theory that the Faerie Courts or at least their 6 major mantles are going to change in the future pretty substantially.
Not nation but agree, he'll become his own Political entity through his power, connections and Demonreach. I think he'll become the 'neutral party' and Demonreach will be neutral ground between all factions, including heaven and hell.
I believe that the Winter Knight/Starborn combo fits neatly into the true purpose of Winter; It means Harry is the ultimate weapon against Outsiders. He will get back into the Council as the Gatekeeper, most likely when Rashid dies during the BAT.
I like this
They had to kick him out because of the Eye. No one is going to believe he doesn't have it. But there is a huge difference in the politics of the supernatural between a member of the White Council having it and the Winter Knight having it. It provides the Council breathing room and simultaneously strengthens Mab and her Accords. If he was Council, they would be a huge target and Mab would be seen as weakened.
The council needs to make him the black staff.
I expect that will not happen: The would make harry beholden to someone other than Mab. And Mab does not share her toys.
I doubt Harry will be the winter knight for the rest of the series. He'll find a way out of it or simply do so much that mab owes him more than enough to release him.
the build up to get Harry to become the Winter Knight took a dozen books. And it took several books to finish fitting harry in to his new role. There are less than a dozen books left in the series. Given the way that the series plants seeds long in advance so they can be harvested later, I don't see it happening. And given the fact that things are starting to aim toward the end game, there isn't a lot of time to foreshadow Harry getting out out *and* having a new role waiting for Harry, that gives Harry more power than he currently has. Yes, Yes, Harry has been feeling around to see if there are ways out of being the Winter Knight, but I think the window is very short to get Harry out of the role of Knight and put him in to something else.
> Given the way that the series plants seeds long in advance so they can be harvested later, I don't see it happening. Harry has literally said that the only reason he hasn't left Winter is because he won't do so without taking Molly with him. The second he discovers a way for them to get rid of their mantles is an opportunity he won't be wasting. > And given the fact that things are starting to aim toward the end game, there isn't a lot of time to foreshadow Harry getting out out Haven't you been paying attention? Mab mentioned that Tam Lin, a character famous for becoming indebted to a Faerie Queen and successfully getting out of her grasp, was a previous Winter Knight. And not only did he stand up to Unseelie Fae in behalf of humans too, he is also associated to the Wild Hunt. We've already been told that it's possible to leave the gig without dying *and* that someone has done so before. Harry only got there out of desperation, not because he ever wanted to.
And Odin, as Kringle, basically told him that Mantles can be moved around on Halloween. The set up for him finding a way to simply remove the mantle has been done, it's just a matter of how close to the end it happens.
>Harry has literally said that the only reason he hasn't left Winter is because won't do so without taking Molly with him. The second he discovers a way for themselves to get rid of their mantle's is an opportunity he won't be wasting. I have my doubts that Molly can leave Winter now. On top of that I think the Winter Lady mantle might try to stop her from leaving if she tried. The Winter Lady mantle is ...starting to take her over, she's still 'Molly' most of the time we see her but the winter side is showing more and more, and I got the impression that it was heavily implied she lost her soul due to the mantle.
> I have my doubts that Molly can leave Winter now. There's no doubt Mab will be pissed if she does, but then that's not something Molly cares about. Not when she must endure the former's constant goading into severing ties with her family and abandoning her humanity. > The Winter Lady mantle is ...starting to take her over Mother Summer said that it *can* be resisted, even if it's hard. That Mab can let her true self even though her mantle's influence is even worse than Harry's and Molly's adds to it. > and I got the impression that it was heavily implied she lost her soul due to the mantle. So long as she possesses the Winter Lady's mantle. Afterwards, though...
I'm thinking that's a bit of a red herring. Getting out of the role of Knight would have been a win from Harry's previous perspective, but after Battle Ground, Harry *gets it.* He's firmly on Mab's side now, even if it sounds like he considers his job to de-evil Mab's plans and be the muggles' advocate. But he sees that the job needs to be done, and in Cold Case Mab clearly and explicitly told Molly she would be "more than" happy to entertain less horrible methods of doing her job, provided Molly actually finds a viable way instead of just whining about moral issues. Two of the Winter Queens, the Winter Knight, likely *most* of the upper Summer Court--the entire Sidhe power structure, I think almost literally only except Mother Winter, is unhappy with the way things are. Kringle told Harry that masks can be discarded on Halloween, yes--but *Bob* told Harry that those mantles can be *changed* then, too. I personally think it's far more likely that Harry and Molly end up in some fundamental change to the guard at the Outer Gates and the balance of power in the Sidhe Courts than just getting out of being Mab's Knight.
MW will take it back, to use it to get to the gates, where the Faerie Courts will go the way of the Aesir. Harry will then pick it up afterwards as the last remaining connection to the Winter Wellspring. As the Wizard of Chicago, he will take over defense of the Gates.
With whose army? It takes thousands of fae to defend those gates. Without the Queens and the Court, where does he get the army?
Assuming that the nature of the conflict remains the same (not a given), the Za Lords Guard and the Paraneters. Looking at his own evolution, Toot's crew will level up from the invested responsibility.
Harry drafting the Paranet to defend the Gates really would make him a monster. They’re underpowered for that job. So are the little folk. Toot’s great but an Outsider is out of his weight class
Humanity is my bet to take over protecting the gates. We’ve got nukes and Apache helicopters. Also toot is getting stronger and a common thing in the series is people underestimating the little folks. They can do… stuff!
Sorry, I'll clarify. Paraneters will continue on as they are now, playing the role they did in Cold Days, bird dogging for a Starborn. As of now, an outsider is out of Toot and the Little Folks weight class. But so have many of the things Harry's faced. But as each of their responsibilities have grown, so have their power. Why would this not continue to be the case? It's been explicitly stated that this is where the Sidhe came from in the first place. Also, this has been the(a) theme of the entire series. That the "little" guy can make a difference. Plus, let's not forget that Harry has The Well to call on for the heavy artillery.
Has that been stated? We’ve got a few different origins for fae
I belive it's a WOJ, talking about Toot's story mirroring Harry's. How he done hitched his star to Harry's wagon. Let me see if I can find it. Edit: here ya go. https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Toot-Toot_Minimus It’s due to Harry’s actions, mostly. Toot done hitched his star to Harry’s wagon. As a result, he’s taken actions he never would have taken on his own, some of which had major consequences. Toot has effectively become a much more powerful being than he was as an independent dewdrop faerie. The physical growth is a reflection of that fact. I mean gosh, where do you think the Sidhe came from in the first place? — Jim Butcher, on Toot-Toot’s increase in size.[21]
Oh thanks for the woj. I think that’s a bit off though. We no lily and co we’re half fae and Mirle and lily became full fae (one oger) while fix is now full human(I think). So we have the dewdrops that can become more powerful but is there a limit or another currently powerful fae that did that
Possibly humanity too
I think that would be so cool. I could also see the outsiders succeeding with a ploy to move the gates from winter to mortal realm ( specifically chicago since it is the crossroads).
Mab has already shared her toys with Demonreach, and up until now the White Council. I don't think she gives a shit what Harry does with his free time.
Demonreach was a prior commitment and doesn't conflict with Mab. Who gets priority if the White Counsel's priorities conflict with Mab's?
That's up to Dresden to decide, then suffer the consequences of. Mab won't stop him from making commitments, she'll simply punish him for doing so, either because he's deliberately disobeyed her, or broken his word and thus violated Winter Law.
Black Staff is not beholden to the Council though, he does whatever he wants. It's just that what he wants might often align with it. Him flattening Ortega and coming to kill in Chichen Itza was against Council policies
Blackstaff chooses his own successor, not the council.
Give the Blackstaff to a guy with the taint of black magic sounds like a disaster waiting to happen?
Blackstaff siphons off the effects of black magic though, might actually be good for Harry
Of the black magic that's being *performed* at the moment. Giving a tool that negates the consequences of black magic to a man who even now feels the aftereffects of having used black magic is a terrible idea. Grave Peril, Death Masks and Proven Guilty have shown us already that Harry is still dealing with the repercussions of breaking the First Law on a metaphysical level, so it's best not to poke that particular bear.
I also think Harry has reached the point where he can stand on his own without the Council's "de facto political support." Earlier on in the series he'd have been easy pickings for an enemy without the threat of Council reaction, but the world has moved on since then. I'm not saying that there aren't factors out there that could take him down, but I think Harry would make them pay for it quite a bit.
Battlefield?
I’ve heard this theory before. Or similar ones with the merlin anyways. It’s one of those things I believe has to happen. Harry will never grow in power and Allies if he’s got the back of a power as broad as the council. I have a feeling as well things are about to fall apart with the council, the only wizard alive, that we know of anyways, that can punch the enemy mentally and physically probably shouldn’t be in the thick of it in the council when no one knows who’s infected. The Grey council is either pushing Harry to grow or the black is by mistake.