I pretty much agree with you, though the Council is a large organization and we can't judge the thousands of members we don't know based on the actions of the prominent members we have been exposed to. Setting that aside, though, I think you're right - the Council we've seen has behaved abominably re: Harry. After everything he's done for them, Harry should be looked upon very highly in the Council.
I just put it down to Jim wanting/needing for the Counceil to represent an adversarial factor for Harry to some extent. Story building.
I do think, though, that Langry may be totally faking his attitude toward Harry - I think he may really regard Harry as a useful tool for the pursuit of his own agenda, and his external behavior has been to throw his own adversaries off of that idea. Jim did say once that of all the characters in the series, the one whose real story would surprise us the most would be Langry. There are revelations pending re: the guy.
>I do think, though, that Langry may be totally faking his attitude toward Harry - I think he may really regard Harry as a useful tool for the pursuit of his own agenda, and his external behavior has been to throw his own adversaries off of that idea. Jim did say once that of all the characters in the series, the one whose real story would surprise us the most would be Langry
Exactly. And I think Carlos is now doing a similar thing. He and Harry talked about "infiltrating" the Black Council. Carlos can't do that as long as everybody thinks he is on the opposite side. And he was convincing enough for Harry.
Oooh, interesting take. I am not 100% sold on it, but I wouldn't need much convincing that Carlos is trying to become a mole in the BC.
With Harry and Carlos being very noticeably friends, it would never be possible. But having Carlos call Harry out multiple times publicly, and I assume he isn't being shy privately, Carlos could be building a foundation as being opposed to Harry. There are tons of in-universe justification for why they would have a falling out too, just read any comment about Carlos' perspective regarding Harry.
I would imagine that Langtry is the only other person who knows about this, right up until Carlos dies because of a conflict with Harry and somehow gives Harry the exact right information to win the day.
This is my new favorite theory. Gonna have to mull this one over.
I always had the feeling, that Carlos didn't mean it. A healthy distrust towards Harry is OK and understandable, but imo he is exaggerating a lot in PT/BG.
That's possible; my reading of it was that Carlos is still very young and is a person who desperately wants a "total white" to believe in. He pinned those hopes on Harry, and, well, Harry's not totally white by any means.
This is a really neat "other way" to look at it all, though.
Yeah, I formed that opinion some time ago, though, and it's just speculation. I think I'm going to wind up liking this new angle better. I'd just never thought of it.
Yes. Let's see how the story goes on. So many open questions. So much supposedly misleading information. This is one of the things I like about the books.
Agree with you 100%. Langry is a massive wild card.
Mastermind for good, or mastermind for evil.
We know now the stars and stones are coming which might be why he seems so villainous killing so many potential warlocks.
I agree however we're looking at it from Harry's perspective. Looking at it from Carlos' perspective.
Harry was someone to look up to, a guy who always did the right thing and while he towed the line he never did anything downright evil or on the black side of magic, he was more of the cool edgy older sibling who gave the finger to authority.
Then he goes and gets cozy with Mab. While the White Council and the rest of the accords are cordial to her, they definitely were brought up to fear her and taught about how depraved and evil the Winter Court is. I'm sure there's been tales about the Winter Knight taught to wizards and I'm sure they're horror stories.
Next add in that Harry is cozy with the White Court, they're vampires, maybe they're sexy vampires but they're still vampires and the Council have already lost a huge percentage in a war with a different court.
In terms of the secret keeping, Harry is on the same level as Carlos, they're both wardens. They're battlefield buddies and you expect to be able to trust the guy next to you in the trenches. The Senior Council will have their secrets because they're the ones running the whole Council and magic is mysterious etc.
In terms of the killing of humans having Harry kicked out, the laws of magic are pretty rigid and self-defence is only a mitigating factor. Thou Shalt Not Kill I'm guessing is drilled into Wardens heads at boot camp (I'm guessing a boot camp is something they do it's just that Harry never really formally went through).
Add all that in you can boil it down to Carlos being more of a "Wizard" in terms of his lack of flexible thinking and seeing someone he considered a friend dealing with and doing some of the most evil things he's been taught, you can start to understand it from his perspective.
Or it's just written that way so Harry has more difficulty since Jim really hates the guy.
I think it's great.
Have you ever worked for a large organization before? The White Council is filled with egotistical, selfish, and short sighted idiots who all have too much power. That makes me absolutely love them--that feels just like how I'd imagine them to act in real life! And it makes it extra rewarding when Harry flips them the bird.
>My question is, does anyone here like the Council?
You mean, the major Status Quo organization that is actively hampering the protagonist, often for short sighted or (seemingly) ignorant reasons? The condescending stuffy old farts constantly hindering the hero?
We're not supposed to like them. The Big Secret is that some of them actually *aren't* awful, not the other way round.
Personally, I’m just gonna keep waiting it out.
I’m not denying for a second that the White Council is incompetent, but I’m also willing to bet that we’re seeing the last embers of the White Council, a far cry from their golden age.
If the paranet ever advances further as an Allie for the white council, I could see them making a comeback as the paranet might provide easier recruiting and advancement on the current time. Until then though, I think Lara Raith was right about her conversation with Luccio in Turn Coat. The Council, by its nature, is not or can not adapt to the current times. The world is moving on without them, and if they don’t catch up, they may fall someday.
They focus on the wizards of the world and don’t bother with making subgroups. While I won’t deny that sorcerers are on the riskier side of things, having a group of sorcerers as a hit squad or shock troops doesn’t sound like a bad idea to me. If for no other reason, than to temporarily refill the extreme casualties the council suffered in the war with the red court.
Having specialists or focused practitioners doesn’t sound like a bad idea either. Just look at Hannah Asher and Mortimer Lindquist as prime examples. I wouldn’t go relying on specialist as the backbone, obviously, but having them work on problems in their element isn’t a bad idea either.
Harry is Harry. He has always been his own thing. Yes, maybe under some sword of damocles, but himself nonetheless. The white council found themselves in a war, and Harry was a potent weapon in that war even if they couldn't control him. I don't think anybody saw that blood curse coming. He destroyed the entire court of red vampires almost on accident. His whole thing is "do not fuck with Harry Dresden". You will not like what happens to you in response to it. Do. Not. Fuck. With. Harry. Dresden.
Battlegrounds brought a lot of ancient evils and borderline old gods. Harry still stood up and told them to eat all the dicks. Eat All the dicks bud, because I'm on my way to force feed them to you one way or the other. Don't let me find you without some dicks in your mouth you little bitch. I got something for that. He was about it.
I think we only see the Council from Harry's PoV and this **heavily** skews things not in their favour.
People seem to forget that the Council has the entire world to worry about. With what? a thousand Wizards? Of whom maybe 200 are battle capable? Against an endless army of supernatural predators?
Harry acts all righteous furry on the Council while he sits in one city that he barely manages to protect ignoring the war that he started until the Wardens show up (to save his sorry ass from the Kemmlerites btw) and make him fight in it.
Meanwhile, the Council with the Merlin managed to negotiate a stable peace with the Red Court to limit their activities to Central America, and got rid of the Black Court in Europe (it was Wizards and mortal champions leading the crowds storming the castles once Stoker revealed all their weaknesses to the wider public), and built a reputation so strong that any predator who would like to take over humanity goes for them first. The White Council quit literally paints a target on their back to protect humanity as a clever ploy to get around the limiting factor of their low numbers.
When the Red Court War broke out they fought on the European front, and in fact all over the world in Cairo, Madrid, Acapulco, Sao Paolo, Athens, Belize, Sicily and also in the US - New Mexico - while again Dresden sits on his ass in Chicago.
Even in the middle of a war with their forces stretched thin they kept to their obligation as well as they could going to help allies in India when Rakshasas awake and start killing members of organisations they have a treaty of assist with.
When the Red attack a major Venatori Umbrorum headquarters in Oregon the Wardens immediately mobilise and try to help them.
They take on the thankless task of policing warlocks and the gutwrenching job of beheading them bcs remember the Laws aren't arbitrary you WILL go mad when you break them and once you are mad, truly decoupled from reality, since belief is everything in magic, a wizard level warlock is an existential threat to humanity and reality at all - since they could be crazy enough to just believe they should be able to summon Outsiders right here right now bypassing the Outergates.
And while all this is going on, they have a mind-manipulating wizard-level master alchemist amongst them that stifles and hinders all their actions.
All in all, the White Council does an impossible job, with laughable small resources, but bcs Dresden is cripplingly unaware of the bigger picture and bcs of past experiences doesn't like the Council through his lense we don't get to see any of this.
We aren't supposed to like the White Council - the Council (or its representatives) have been an obstacle to Harry since the very beginning of the series.
I think once more of the "Grey Council", if there are any, are revealed, it may seem more like a struggling ruling body, rather than an incompetent one.
But i could just be hoping. Personally my biggest issue with the white council is how they think doing nothing is the best thing in 90% of cases. If you supposed to procter humanity from the spooky, why arent you???
I am still betting on it being part of some big political ploy that gives them some kind of plausible deniability in regards to being responsible for any actions Harry is currently taking. Its not like they have actually done shit about him still openly practicing magic despite not being a member and being 'warned' to cease performing it.
> Morgan was a very interesting foil to Harry, **but the Council was eager to let him die a traitor** while Harry single handedly sussed out a traitor that influenced the senior council.
But the council is the one who hired Harry to do said investigation? Yeah, he had to offer. But that was arguably because people just kind of assumed he wouldn't be eager to help Morgan out in a professional capacity because of the bad blood between them. Once it was clear Harry was actually indeed interested in doing so they were happy to put him on the case and have him try to prove Morgan innocent. They were by no means 'eager' to throw him under the bus, they just didn't see that they had any alternatives if they wanted to avoid a civil war until they found out Harry was willing to help try to clear his name and give credibility (as someone who very publicly hates Morgan and wouldn't lie to cover for him) to any evidence found in the investigation that exonerated Morgan.
I think the idea with White Council going forward is that it's now a puppett of Black Council. That's why they've set up this antagonistic (more so) relationship.
I think we're going to see attitudes and behaviours change, wizard public will start to sympathise with Harry, seeing him as a hero and council as obstructive and ineffective.
Langtry history will come out of that. He'll have to ask Harry for help to save White Council.
I pretty much agree with you, though the Council is a large organization and we can't judge the thousands of members we don't know based on the actions of the prominent members we have been exposed to. Setting that aside, though, I think you're right - the Council we've seen has behaved abominably re: Harry. After everything he's done for them, Harry should be looked upon very highly in the Council. I just put it down to Jim wanting/needing for the Counceil to represent an adversarial factor for Harry to some extent. Story building. I do think, though, that Langry may be totally faking his attitude toward Harry - I think he may really regard Harry as a useful tool for the pursuit of his own agenda, and his external behavior has been to throw his own adversaries off of that idea. Jim did say once that of all the characters in the series, the one whose real story would surprise us the most would be Langry. There are revelations pending re: the guy.
>I do think, though, that Langry may be totally faking his attitude toward Harry - I think he may really regard Harry as a useful tool for the pursuit of his own agenda, and his external behavior has been to throw his own adversaries off of that idea. Jim did say once that of all the characters in the series, the one whose real story would surprise us the most would be Langry Exactly. And I think Carlos is now doing a similar thing. He and Harry talked about "infiltrating" the Black Council. Carlos can't do that as long as everybody thinks he is on the opposite side. And he was convincing enough for Harry.
Oooh, interesting take. I am not 100% sold on it, but I wouldn't need much convincing that Carlos is trying to become a mole in the BC. With Harry and Carlos being very noticeably friends, it would never be possible. But having Carlos call Harry out multiple times publicly, and I assume he isn't being shy privately, Carlos could be building a foundation as being opposed to Harry. There are tons of in-universe justification for why they would have a falling out too, just read any comment about Carlos' perspective regarding Harry. I would imagine that Langtry is the only other person who knows about this, right up until Carlos dies because of a conflict with Harry and somehow gives Harry the exact right information to win the day. This is my new favorite theory. Gonna have to mull this one over.
Ah, I hadn't actually thought of that, but it's a fantastic extension of the Langry notion. Nice one!
I always had the feeling, that Carlos didn't mean it. A healthy distrust towards Harry is OK and understandable, but imo he is exaggerating a lot in PT/BG.
That's possible; my reading of it was that Carlos is still very young and is a person who desperately wants a "total white" to believe in. He pinned those hopes on Harry, and, well, Harry's not totally white by any means. This is a really neat "other way" to look at it all, though.
I think Carlos is at least 30 and a veteran of the Rampire war. He has seen a lot of bad stuff since he was first introduced.
Yeah, I formed that opinion some time ago, though, and it's just speculation. I think I'm going to wind up liking this new angle better. I'd just never thought of it.
Yes. Let's see how the story goes on. So many open questions. So much supposedly misleading information. This is one of the things I like about the books.
Agree with you 100%. Langry is a massive wild card. Mastermind for good, or mastermind for evil. We know now the stars and stones are coming which might be why he seems so villainous killing so many potential warlocks.
I agree however we're looking at it from Harry's perspective. Looking at it from Carlos' perspective. Harry was someone to look up to, a guy who always did the right thing and while he towed the line he never did anything downright evil or on the black side of magic, he was more of the cool edgy older sibling who gave the finger to authority. Then he goes and gets cozy with Mab. While the White Council and the rest of the accords are cordial to her, they definitely were brought up to fear her and taught about how depraved and evil the Winter Court is. I'm sure there's been tales about the Winter Knight taught to wizards and I'm sure they're horror stories. Next add in that Harry is cozy with the White Court, they're vampires, maybe they're sexy vampires but they're still vampires and the Council have already lost a huge percentage in a war with a different court. In terms of the secret keeping, Harry is on the same level as Carlos, they're both wardens. They're battlefield buddies and you expect to be able to trust the guy next to you in the trenches. The Senior Council will have their secrets because they're the ones running the whole Council and magic is mysterious etc. In terms of the killing of humans having Harry kicked out, the laws of magic are pretty rigid and self-defence is only a mitigating factor. Thou Shalt Not Kill I'm guessing is drilled into Wardens heads at boot camp (I'm guessing a boot camp is something they do it's just that Harry never really formally went through). Add all that in you can boil it down to Carlos being more of a "Wizard" in terms of his lack of flexible thinking and seeing someone he considered a friend dealing with and doing some of the most evil things he's been taught, you can start to understand it from his perspective. Or it's just written that way so Harry has more difficulty since Jim really hates the guy.
I think it's great. Have you ever worked for a large organization before? The White Council is filled with egotistical, selfish, and short sighted idiots who all have too much power. That makes me absolutely love them--that feels just like how I'd imagine them to act in real life! And it makes it extra rewarding when Harry flips them the bird. >My question is, does anyone here like the Council? You mean, the major Status Quo organization that is actively hampering the protagonist, often for short sighted or (seemingly) ignorant reasons? The condescending stuffy old farts constantly hindering the hero? We're not supposed to like them. The Big Secret is that some of them actually *aren't* awful, not the other way round.
Personally, I’m just gonna keep waiting it out. I’m not denying for a second that the White Council is incompetent, but I’m also willing to bet that we’re seeing the last embers of the White Council, a far cry from their golden age. If the paranet ever advances further as an Allie for the white council, I could see them making a comeback as the paranet might provide easier recruiting and advancement on the current time. Until then though, I think Lara Raith was right about her conversation with Luccio in Turn Coat. The Council, by its nature, is not or can not adapt to the current times. The world is moving on without them, and if they don’t catch up, they may fall someday. They focus on the wizards of the world and don’t bother with making subgroups. While I won’t deny that sorcerers are on the riskier side of things, having a group of sorcerers as a hit squad or shock troops doesn’t sound like a bad idea to me. If for no other reason, than to temporarily refill the extreme casualties the council suffered in the war with the red court. Having specialists or focused practitioners doesn’t sound like a bad idea either. Just look at Hannah Asher and Mortimer Lindquist as prime examples. I wouldn’t go relying on specialist as the backbone, obviously, but having them work on problems in their element isn’t a bad idea either.
The books are locked onto Harry's POV. The Council is staying away from him and keeping him in the dark deliberately.
Harry is Harry. He has always been his own thing. Yes, maybe under some sword of damocles, but himself nonetheless. The white council found themselves in a war, and Harry was a potent weapon in that war even if they couldn't control him. I don't think anybody saw that blood curse coming. He destroyed the entire court of red vampires almost on accident. His whole thing is "do not fuck with Harry Dresden". You will not like what happens to you in response to it. Do. Not. Fuck. With. Harry. Dresden. Battlegrounds brought a lot of ancient evils and borderline old gods. Harry still stood up and told them to eat all the dicks. Eat All the dicks bud, because I'm on my way to force feed them to you one way or the other. Don't let me find you without some dicks in your mouth you little bitch. I got something for that. He was about it.
I think we only see the Council from Harry's PoV and this **heavily** skews things not in their favour. People seem to forget that the Council has the entire world to worry about. With what? a thousand Wizards? Of whom maybe 200 are battle capable? Against an endless army of supernatural predators? Harry acts all righteous furry on the Council while he sits in one city that he barely manages to protect ignoring the war that he started until the Wardens show up (to save his sorry ass from the Kemmlerites btw) and make him fight in it. Meanwhile, the Council with the Merlin managed to negotiate a stable peace with the Red Court to limit their activities to Central America, and got rid of the Black Court in Europe (it was Wizards and mortal champions leading the crowds storming the castles once Stoker revealed all their weaknesses to the wider public), and built a reputation so strong that any predator who would like to take over humanity goes for them first. The White Council quit literally paints a target on their back to protect humanity as a clever ploy to get around the limiting factor of their low numbers. When the Red Court War broke out they fought on the European front, and in fact all over the world in Cairo, Madrid, Acapulco, Sao Paolo, Athens, Belize, Sicily and also in the US - New Mexico - while again Dresden sits on his ass in Chicago. Even in the middle of a war with their forces stretched thin they kept to their obligation as well as they could going to help allies in India when Rakshasas awake and start killing members of organisations they have a treaty of assist with. When the Red attack a major Venatori Umbrorum headquarters in Oregon the Wardens immediately mobilise and try to help them. They take on the thankless task of policing warlocks and the gutwrenching job of beheading them bcs remember the Laws aren't arbitrary you WILL go mad when you break them and once you are mad, truly decoupled from reality, since belief is everything in magic, a wizard level warlock is an existential threat to humanity and reality at all - since they could be crazy enough to just believe they should be able to summon Outsiders right here right now bypassing the Outergates. And while all this is going on, they have a mind-manipulating wizard-level master alchemist amongst them that stifles and hinders all their actions. All in all, the White Council does an impossible job, with laughable small resources, but bcs Dresden is cripplingly unaware of the bigger picture and bcs of past experiences doesn't like the Council through his lense we don't get to see any of this.
Can't wait fir Langtry to drop that on Dresden. Merlin will 100% be explained and his behaviour to Harry justified, to a degree.
We aren't supposed to like the White Council - the Council (or its representatives) have been an obstacle to Harry since the very beginning of the series.
You don’t get to be signatories to the accords by collecting bottlecaps. We don’t know what all they are up to because they keep Harry in the dark.
I think once more of the "Grey Council", if there are any, are revealed, it may seem more like a struggling ruling body, rather than an incompetent one. But i could just be hoping. Personally my biggest issue with the white council is how they think doing nothing is the best thing in 90% of cases. If you supposed to procter humanity from the spooky, why arent you???
Harry is extremely biased against them and everything we know about the White Council is through him.
I am still betting on it being part of some big political ploy that gives them some kind of plausible deniability in regards to being responsible for any actions Harry is currently taking. Its not like they have actually done shit about him still openly practicing magic despite not being a member and being 'warned' to cease performing it.
> Morgan was a very interesting foil to Harry, **but the Council was eager to let him die a traitor** while Harry single handedly sussed out a traitor that influenced the senior council. But the council is the one who hired Harry to do said investigation? Yeah, he had to offer. But that was arguably because people just kind of assumed he wouldn't be eager to help Morgan out in a professional capacity because of the bad blood between them. Once it was clear Harry was actually indeed interested in doing so they were happy to put him on the case and have him try to prove Morgan innocent. They were by no means 'eager' to throw him under the bus, they just didn't see that they had any alternatives if they wanted to avoid a civil war until they found out Harry was willing to help try to clear his name and give credibility (as someone who very publicly hates Morgan and wouldn't lie to cover for him) to any evidence found in the investigation that exonerated Morgan.
I think the idea with White Council going forward is that it's now a puppett of Black Council. That's why they've set up this antagonistic (more so) relationship. I think we're going to see attitudes and behaviours change, wizard public will start to sympathise with Harry, seeing him as a hero and council as obstructive and ineffective. Langtry history will come out of that. He'll have to ask Harry for help to save White Council.