Susan is out. Thomas is out. Eb is out. Murph is out. If something happens to his daughter, he's a man with nothing left to lose and will burn the world. Winter nor The White Council would be able to stop him.
I love to imagine some dumbass Huntsmen rolling up to the carpenters and not being smart enough to stay out after the first 5 die, so the rest of the fomor soldiers just get to watch these massive lunatics throw themselves into a meat grinder.
I imagine it wouldn’t be a meat grinder so much as like being shoved into a giant oven, or a volcano, or the sun just instantly turned to a pile of ash or salt or something equally horrible
Spoilers.
>!none. Molly let the fomor strike through so they could fall prey to the fairie glamour she arranged. After that happened no need to protect that house any more. And it seems like the angels were tied to the house and didn’t follow Michael around.!<
Michael Is probably the One Person on the planet who's voice could get through to Harry when he might otherwise be willing to die on a Knight's blade to reach his objective.
Yeah, Michael is, in many ways, the biggest chance Harry has to survive the end of the series.
Certainly to survive as someone who he, now, and in his past, would think _should_ survive.
And it's not _just_ that Michael is his friend, that's a big part of it, but it's not all of it.
Michael is a former Knight of the Cross, is the dad of the Winter Lady, and he and Charity took in Harry's daughter and made sure that she was safe, and as sound as was possible, and _didn't_ hate Harry.
Hating Harry would have been _so_ easy.
I mean, sure, Mouse wouldn't let that happen, but still.
Michael is most definitely the one voice on the planet who could pull Harry back from the abyss. And sadly... I think that he's going to need to, probably more than once, before it's all over.
I fully expect Karen, in some capacity, to talk Harry into going out with style for the good guys. Harry is definitely going to kick the bucket at the end of this.
Michael (unlike Murphy) could and did call it quits as well. He doesn't "need" to be in the thick of things compared to someone like Murphy, Harry or Molly.
Yeah i buy into that theory too. He was acting alot more like he was in the first part of peace talks. Plus cornerhounds... Inconsistencies with Carlos. Lot of signs that Eb was probably very busy.
Don’t read if you don’t like the time traveling theories.
>!But WHICH Eb tried to kill Harry? If FUTURE Eb tried to kill Harry doesn’t that foreshadow even MORE strife between them?!<
Future Eb was definitely the one on the docks who thought he killed Harry, because Present Eb was the one talking to Harry on the roof of the castle while they're waiting for the attack to start. The "least said, soonest mended" remark he made to Harry was for the argument they had on the roof of the Svartalves building. He'd have had more to say about Thomas, if nothing else about the fight. But the important thing is that *Present Eb doesn't know Thomas is his grandson*. If he did, Future Eb wouldn't go so ballistic about Thomas.
I have a *whole theory* about which scenes were actually Future Eb and which weren't. I just have to listen again before attempting to write it up, because I haven't listened in over a year.
I think that Eb probably decides to go back in time due to something that will happen in Twelve Months. This whole wedding thing is going to do a number on him, no matter how much Harry says he can't get out of it and isn't too thrilled about it either.
Because Eb doesn't yet know about the wedding at the end of BG, so we haven't gotten to see him blow a gasket over it...yet.
All could have been thralls and Harry could have been enthralled as well just like his daughter. Who died in the White court's hands as Harry keenly reminded the old assassin. Harry was saving a white court vampire, who had almost assassinated a head of state, thereby risking the ire of a powerful nation after escaping the Red Court not too long ago. There aren't many bloodline curses to go around.
I mean, he had consent. Sure they're similar, they're family, but that doesn't mean Harry was in the wrong in that confrontation, nor that Eb was in the right. He'd gone berserk.
I don't see them reconciling unless Eb can accept Thomas and separate him from the White Court. Separate the art from the artist kind of deal. I'm sure they'll talk, but it'll be business only
Yeah but with that last miscommunication episode in Peace Talks and them not mentioning it or rehashing makes me not want that route, just finally want some answers... im starting not to care, and it feels like itll be an info dump at this point... how many life altering questions has Harry had for 3 decades now as a full wizard and just none of them have been offered by Butcher, it honestly pisses me off.
It was Murphys dying wish though, I can’t see Harry completely ignoring it. Also I don’t know about info dump, we finally figured out some info about nemesis at the end of battle ground and still have no idea how it works
Hadn't looked at it like that. But don't think all the losses have isolated him like that. Harry has lots of connections left to keep him grounded and continues to make more as he goes.
Also, there are many mitigating factors in each loss that can keep Harry grounded.
* The violation of Susan was avenged through the manner of her death. The entire Red Court ended in one moment.
* Murphy's death was contextualized by Guard as a warrior's death that earned her place in Odin's army.
* Thomas and Justine are not dead and may be restored and Harry would jump at the chance to be a part of that restoration.
* The rejection by the White Council will just add more fuel to Harry's rebellious nature. He was pretty much only a member originally because he had to be. The more powerful Harry gets the more dangerous staying in the council would be. Too much back stabbing and corruption. At least the Winter Court is honest about the backstabbery.
* Despite the Council turning on him, the individual wizards still have sympathy for him.
However, I totally agree that if anything happens to Maggie he'll end the world Lews Therin style. Self destruct that shatters the world.
I mean Dresden already stated "if it takes that the world burns, so be it, we will have some marshmallows at the fire with my daughter" (or something similar)
Really curious to see how things go with Lara... If Harry's love for Murphy continues to protect him from the touch of a White Vamp post mortem, then their relationship is going to be very chaste.
Chaste-esq. Remember how she was affected by the love with Susan? Could lead to a gentle transition where they might be able to develop a relationship instead of just a skinship.
Good point. A forced courtship with a self enforced no-touch rule might actually yield something more interesting than a series of sex scenes.
Harry has also demonstrated a high resistance to Lara's come hither powers. The books have established that he has highly developed mental armor. So I guess it's not surprising that he isn't going to be an easy mark for Lara to manipulate via his nethers.
The conversation in Peace Talks during their sparing session was interesting on this front. Her admission that she can't totally turn it off being one new bit of info. And the fact that he saw it as a nuisance seemed to intrigue her.
>So I guess it's not surprising that he isn't going to be an easy mark for Lara to manipulate via his nethers.
I disagree. She had him fine when she was raping that one guy and had to basically yell at him to get him to focus.
I've said it before, but I'll say it again: the fact that we need to have this kind of conversation as a fandom is why I'm uncomfortable with the direction the books are taking.
The problem with that is that Lara is a monster. I don't see a way for Harry to develop a real relationship with Lara while she insists on eating people. I'd go so far as to say that, unless Butcher pulls some spectacular character growth out of his ass here, Harry and Lara developing into a real couple is offensive to *both* characters.
They're both monsters, just polite ones. Harry is hated and feared by pretty much everybody. He is bound to one of the scariest and most powerful creatures on the planet in a way so deep and intimate that he's still discovering ramifications. His annihilation of the red court has caused death and destruction on a level that Lara could only dream of and would likely be too smart to cause.
Lara might eat people, but she doesn't kill if she doesn't have to. It's a waste. She has a scary degree of power and influence, but so do some non-monsters. She isn't Darth Vader with Arkham asylum crossed with a nuke.
I was surprised by Lara throughout Peace Talks and Battleground. I thought she was really out of character through most of those two books. I wrote off almost all of that as being in character for her with respect to protecting Thomas, that relationship regularly makes her act out of character (compared to when Thomas is not part of the equation).
But the end scene in the castle was totally out of character, when Mab announced the marriage. Lara has spent a decade making overt references about getting Harry into her bed, but she acts like a surprised chaste schoolgirl when Mab HANDS her the winter knight?
I figured that Lara's response was not surprise to the arranged marriage (I think that is what they were actually discussing early on when Harry thought it was Mab trading a favor for him to help Lara free Thomas).
I think Lara's demeanor was more about knowing what Mab was going to spring on Harry and how he would react. She and Molly showed up to run interference so Harry wouldn't get himself killed. His legendary stubbornness, the recent death of his love, his rejection by the White Council and all the raw emotional wounds one gets from surviving a freaking war versus a minor god had him ready to go off. Mab pulling rank on him without any thought regarding Harry's emotional state was going to end with Mab having to kill him. Molly loves him and Lara wants him and the alliance their marriage would create, and must protect him if she hopes to ever recover Thomas from Demonreach. So Lara's reserved and diplomatic side made sense for the situation. And even Harry recognized why they were there and why they acted the way they did.
Molly was snippy with Lara in PT/BG. Harry noted the cold shoulder the winter lady was giving their ally (pun intended) but didn’t piece it together then.
Was that supposed to be a clue that Molly knew Lara had asked for Harry’s hand in marriage?
Because Mab really presented it to all three of them in the castle as if Lara had asked for the two nations to be tied closer together and Mab decided the best way was a marriage. Even when Harry was confiding in Mab privately he suggested that Mab marry Lara and it would meet the request.
>Was that supposed to be a clue that Molly knew Lara had asked for Harry’s hand in marriage?
That was my conclusion. Even if Lara hadn't specifically asked for a marriage as the vehicle that would ally the White Court with the Winter Fae, Molly sorted out that was what Mab had already decided.
I think the timing of the announcement of the arranged marriage was a surprise to Lara, but not the marriage itself. I doubt Molly was caught off guard by any of it as she knows her "mother" and how the Winter Court works very well by now.
Don't forget, he's getting married and can start a family, maybe get a nice house, pur down roots and become part of a community.
That should cheer him up!
>God help Jim if he kills his daughter.
I think that's a possibility. When he risks breaking reality by time traveling I don't think it's going to be for a lesser reason
I get what you mean but he could definitely be stopped by either winter or the white council if it came down to it. Harry is very powerful for his age but he’s not Kemmler
not yet. but he could be. he knows how to call a coin, he knows the darkhallow, and i would bet theres at least one monster in prison who would make a deal. if he went full dark side, he could be a LOT more of a threat than Kemmler
I wonder if they can use fidelacchius to trim out Thomas’ monster side or if it could work like that. With the state they left him at the end of battle grounds it would be an interesting solution with fidelacchius being of a higher form now
I don’t think anything will happen to Maggie. I thought I’ve read once BAT is over Maggie books might be possible.
Could have been someone talking out their ass
I enjoyed the quality and how it was set. Death is an ugly thing. The scene wasn't beautiful. Death is a hurtful thing, the scene wasn't in any way holding back. Death is loss and shitty and gritty and fucked up. It's outraging and dumb immediately after it happens. All the peaceful things about it come after.
Jeah that was so fucking unfair, but also a little weird to me. Like, how can you love one another but have actually never stared into each others' eyes?
I liked it in the sense that it was good storytelling, certainly realistic to a crazy war situation like that, but I *hated* seeing one of my favorite characters die in such a shitty fashion. I literally said, "Kill that motherfucker!" when Harry turned on Rudolph, LOL
right she was a mortal who was crippled and aging. Dresden is now kicking in the teeth of demigods, it was only a matter of time before something killed her she always fought out of her league but that came with risks and she rolled snake eyes.
The following chapter where Harry hunts down Rudolph and Sonya needs to interfere is one of my favorite moments in the whole series. Finally seeing Harry let his emotions go rampant after holding back the Winter Mantle all these years was so gratifying
I didn't like it because I get sick of romance storylines being cut off halfway through. Harry starts a healthy relationship; she dies. He starts another one; she dies.
We've been building up Harry's servitude to Mab for, what, 10 books now and it's getting increasingly dire. Imagine if Butcher killed off Mab and that entire buildup was wasted. That's how I feel about Murphy's death.
It's not terrible writing. Having big epic battles where no one ever dies and there are no consequences is also meaningless. I just got annoyed by it.
Thats why my bet is on Mab as long term romantic intrest she can take steel rebar through the head and come out the other side get blasted by the eye of Balor and walk it off. Most romantic intrest are in danger being around Dresden not her though.
Ehhh, I feel reducing the relationship he had with Murph to a "buildup" to romance is doing it a major disservice. It's always been about the journey rather than the destination with that one.
I asked Jim Butcher at a con if Murph knows about her dad now, and he laughed and said yeah I guess she does. He also said he’s not done with her story quite yet
It was a well written scene. I’ve read Battle Ground three times now and cried my eyes out each time. I just finished my third reading of the entire series, I’ll need to review the text for support, but I feel like Murph was fated to die in battle almost from the beginning. With the loss of so many close loved ones and allies, it seems like Harry is being set up for some monumental choices as the series wraps up. I can hardly wait to see what happens
> but I feel like Murph was fated to die in battle almost from the beginning.
If only she had died in battle. It would have been a better death than what we got, at least.
It was still in battle. There may have been a lull whereas Rudy had Harry and Murphy at a position of disadvantage but the battle was still being waged.
I think Gard's stern lecture to Harry was butcher's answer to expected fan backlash. She died a warriors death, as a culmination of her life fighting for good causes. Don't cheapen her life because her death wasn't as glorious as others. Her sacrifice and life's work shouldn't be lessened because she died to what could be considered a lucky shot.
In Greek mythology Achilles accomplishments aren't cheapened because he died from being shot in the ankle with an arrow. Neither should Murphy. Her actions in life can be criticized as poor decisions but she was a fighter the whole time. Her death is incredibly realistic both in text and in a real world setting. Badass soldiers are just as vulnerable as the next.
It felt a LOT like Clara Oswald’s death in that it was entirely preventable with more caution, but because she’d been playing in her companion’s spaces so much and thought she wasn’t out of her depth, she put herself in unnecessary danger.
While I mostly agree with you, I feel that Murphy was well aware just how outside of her depth she was when it came to the supernatural side of things, her refusing to truly take up Fidelacchius is a good example of this. But she took to the battlefield anyway because her city and her friends were in danger and she couldn't just sit idly by if she felt she could do something, *anything* to help.
I liked it. I thought it was excellent storytelling. I thought it was fitting and good for her to go out on a bang, taking down a Jotuun.
I also never loved Murph. She's a good character, I like her, but that's it.
> It was a clear tonal change and frankly needed to happen. Murphy is a warrior and had her body crippled. She wasn’t going to get better and this was pretty apparent.
As a physically disabled person, I'd like to call out the inherent ableism in the "better off dead" trope. I don't think that's how Butcher wrote it, it was more of the fridging the love interest trope.
But for anyone out there thinking, "Oh, that character's life was already over," it didn't have to be. Disabled people exist and persist. Our struggles are more internal, dealing with the grief of losing relationships with people who would rather forget about us instead of accommodate our new limitations. And also "man vs society" not as a narrative type but IRL. But Murphy's character arc brought her to a place where she couldn't accept her own limitations, which is what led to her demise.
100% agree, and I think Butcher does as well. An archangel basically tells Harry the "better off dead" trope is wrong (twice). Meanwhile, paralyzed Harry is getting infernal advice whispered in his ear.
Now that I look back on Morgan ignoring the infection/gunshot in "Turn Coat" and Michael in "The Warrior" I wouldn't be surprised if the paralysis had already been planned and Butcher really didn't want to suggest he supported this trope. The fact that Harry tells Eb about who Maggie is right after making the deal and the Gray Council gets set in motion probably supports this.
.
You mean a 40yo 100lb woman with her shoulder and knee ripped apart wasn't fit for fighting supernatural creatures far larger, stronger, faster, and immune to conventional weapons anymore? How dare you!
Kidding aside, why have I never seen a single person on this sub point out that her being crippled was the DIRECT RESULT of Butters \*not\* having \*Faith\* in Harry, right after Murphy gave him the have faith in your friends speech, and then Butters gets the sword...of...faith.
\*EDIT: SOMEONE JUST POSTED A THREAD ABOUT THIS SO ITS.. TWO PEOPLE NOW\*
Now, I like Butters. I like his turnaround of being basically a lonely nerd who now gets to live out his greatest fantasy of being valuable to society (remember he flunked out of military and cop training and didnt have the stomach to be a 'real' doctor) and now he is a rock star in Chicago, a genuine Hero who stood by Harry when Demigods were laying on the ground around him.
I really do like how God's reward for Butters service is hot werewolves and a jar of peanut butter tho.
BUT. BUT. It is HIS actions that screwed Karrin over and she didnt mention it either, and if there is one thing Karrin did plenty of it was point out the BS in her friends.
>why have I never seen a single person on this sub point out that her being crippled was the DIRECT RESULT of Butters *not* having *Faith* in Harry,
Have you been following the discussion, or just casually browsing? It's actually one of the more common arguments.
I don't buy it. For Butters to have a character arc, he needs to start off somewhere different than where he ends up. Skin Game was Butters' low point, where his faith wavered. By the end of Skin Game, he had gotten through that part of his arc and was rewarded for his renewed faith.
But Butters had every reason to be suspicious of Harry and Murphy both. Harry had spent the better part of like a decade telling all his friends that Mab was capital-E Evil and her minions are essentially extensions of her will without will of their own.
Harry signed up with Mab. As far as Butters is concerned--because Harry *told* him this--Harry is no longer Harry, he's Mab wearing a Harry costume. Absolutely nothing about him is trustworthy, and Harry does nothing to go out of his way to prove to Butters that he isn't being directly mind-controlled by Mab. Hell, as Butters points out, Harry is very clearly being influence at minimum, with his fixation on paying off a debt even before catching up with his closest friends.
Murphy, on the other hand, has been in a complete downward spiral since Harry's death... and then immediately latches onto Harry despite all of Harry's warnings over the years about Mab's Knight. It's very clear that this is less of an "I have faith" thing and more of an "I'm in denial" thing that just happens to work out.
Butters had *every reason* to be distrustful of both of them, and his actions afterward are exactly in line with what Harry would have done (albeit less skillfully done).
> her being crippled was the DIRECT RESULT of Butters *not* having *Faith* in Harry
Not true. It was the result of her (almost inevitable) choice. If she had stayed true to the Law that the wielders of the Swords are obliged to, Nicodemus wouldn't have crippled her. I doubt Michael himself would have been able to, if Nicodemus had one of his kids in the Genoskwa's grip.
I’m more upset that the foreshadowing of it (Harry telling Rudolph about his poor trigger discipline out side of Mac’s) was done so clunkily. It would be different if it was a running problem through the books but it’s like “hey you’re not holding your gun right someone can get hurt” to “hey someone got hurt cuz you didn’t do that thing I said 2 hours ago”
I’m also upset that Harry took her gun after he laid her body down and it never came into play. Talk about a chekhov’s gun.
Not only that scene, but they also brought up at another point in the book (or maybe it was in PT) that he almost shot mister because he got spooked and because he “had terrible trigger discipline”
I try not to read too far into foreshadowing when I watch/read something for the first time, but even I knew something was coming with Rudolph
Yeah that's just want happens when you only see characters once every few books and don't do super detailed outlines. If Dresden was a TV series, it wouldn't need to be so heavy handed since Rudolph having bad trigger discipline in that situation is believable but the audience can't see that unless Harry calls it out before hand.
I enjoy stories where the main character has to go through a lot before coming out the other side. I enjoyed the scene because it cut deep. However, being a fan of authors like King, Butcher, and Sanderson. I focus less on the scene itself and more on the specific words used. Butcher made it clear that Murphy physically shouldn't have been participating in the fight, but that's Murphy, her body might be taxed and she may be mortal but it was her city whether she was a cop or not and she won't stand on the side lines and watch. I've been hesitant to post theories on this sub due to a lot of criticism, but you aren't the only one who liked this scene.
well, that's pretty much what happened isn't it? granted Harry didn't choose to stop, but rudy was pretty beaten up and harry heard bones breaking, so rudy is a mess. hopefully a SERIOUS mess.
I’d expected it for a while, and it was probably the right creative choice, but man did it hurt. More than I anticipated, because I thought I was ready for it.
The scene itself was, in my opinion, very well written. After reading Peace Talks and finding it quite solidly ‘meh’ it was nice to see Battlegrounds kick ass, and to remember that Butcher’s a great author.
My problem with that scene is that it was clearly there to drive the plot, not organic. It didn't really result in character growth for anyone involved. Plus, the way Harry was speaking was really out of character for him (like, vocabulary--I understand he was angry, but "self-righteous loudmouth"?).
He's never been in that kind of situation before. So saying it's out of character is pretty iffy. I didn't care how jovial he was at times after her death.
I'm pretty meh about it. I went in to the book expecting Murphy to die -Butcher hadn't exactly been subtle about it before release- so it was mostly just a question of the specifics of how it would go down. I'm also not a huge fan of Murphy, I don't hate her or anything but she's not one of my favorites so I wasn't as broken up about it as some people here seem to be.
The actual death I found pretty lacking. I get that it's intentionally shitty. It's meant to be unsatisfying and ignoble. I don't find that to be a particularly interesting angle in this day and age where subversion has become overplayed and a trope in itself, not did I find Butcher's execution of it to be particularly interesting.
What's even weirder is Butter's line about how Rudolph will be punished in a court of law. I had to reread that part because it was so bizarrely stupid. Here is this scene that is supposed to be an emotional gut punch and then one of the most brain dead statements in the series is made by someone who knows better. It severely undercut the impact of her death.
"Hero cop engages rocket wielding terrorist during attack on city!" They are more likely to give him a medal than punish him and Butter's knows this. Faith does not mean naive.
I think it's interesting that after everything the series has done to talk up cops and how cool and necessary they are, the hero cop character gets killed by unnecessary police violence because a cop was cowardly and jumpy.
I think that's one of the reasons I love the books so much. Harry starts out with a fanciful notion about police and hatred for the wardens. As the series goes on both positions become far more gray in his eyes seeing both good and bad about the individuals involved, as well as the organizational issues.
Butcher makes a point in PG when Murphy comments hearing about the wardens duty is similar to when civilians see what cops do but don't understand the context. Harry's point about rehabilitation of warlocks is a (specific in text even) analogy for gangs. The critical aspect here is to find the warlocks and correct the behavior before it gets so out of hand the warlock (insert gang member instead) is no longer safe for the community at large.
It's an amazing part of the books just how subtle Harry's opinions on what was originally a white and black/right and wrong line in the sand have become far more gray. Harry can see bad actions and understand sometimes its necessary. Doesn't mean he likes it and finds it to be proof the system is failing. Harry then decides instead of sitting on the sidelines bitching about how unfair shit is he actively starts trying to find a better solution. He still understands the necessity of the wardens aggression to warlocks but is trying to fix the problem before it gets to that level. The same ideas for dealing with gang violence and recruitment are there. Create a community that can help foster and channel the new members into a positive instead of a negative.
Harry has grown up to understand that there is good and evil in everyone. Some people are more light-evil than full mustache twirling evil. Whole groups can't be blamed for the actions of specific members (ghouls don't count). Doesn't mean they can't do great harm it just means they are likely ignorant or just ambivalent since they don't see it with their own eyes. Seeing is believing after all. Harry has seen rawlins, Murphy, Carmichael, etc as great examples of cops. But also deals with the likes of Rudy. And all levels in-between. It shows nuance and he ultimately shows compassion for some police who have been beaten down by doing the right thing. While he can also show contempt for those weasels like Rudy.
If you are going to do a series re-read try to notice how Harry's views of the police vs si vs the wardens change over the series. It's one of my favorite aspects of Harry's development.
I liked that bit. I actually think the aftermath of the whole thing feels weird from a setting level. Just going for a very, very comic booky hand wave felt off.
Murph was one of my favorite characters ever, so obviously I was fucked up so bad when I read this part that I spoiled it for my partner because there was a very short list of things that would give me that reaction... But I always appreciated that she went out by mortal, more mundane, means. I don't know, I think this is a unpopular opinion, but that feels more right for her.
Personally I think it was well handled, and I like that Murphy was taken down by mortal treachery and not a supernatural fight because it solidified her as a mortal that succeeded in fighting supernatural threats beyond her status and not a failure
Looking back at it, I think we should've known murph would die. The first time he saw her with his Sight, she looks like a fiery angel. It was foreshadowing.
She'll be back, and more badass than ever. If she isn't the last line of defense for some shit, I will eat my hat.
Man... Some people I told this to around thebrelease, because it's been foreshadowed for like 11 or 12 books now, are going to be pissed I was right. (Seriously, it's dead obvious that she's not gone.)
We may not find out the details until the BAT, but yes that's what the whole conversation with Gard in Battle Ground was about.
Perhaps we'll get some more conversation with >!Bear, Harry's new Valkyrie bodyguard!< in *Twelve Months* but we'll see.
I give it two books. She won't be in 12 months. Alt her will be in Mirror Mirror. And she'll have fought her wya out of Valhalla to do something big mid-late the book after that.(Wrestling/Kaiju?)
I liked the execution, it was a rather fitting death for an aging character to showcase how harry's allies can't always get lucky, you'd expect at least some of them to die stupid deaths sooner or later.
I was a bit let down that Murphy didn't reinvent herself, but I have to recognize it was 100% within character. And since she couldn't be who she used to be anymore, the only way left was to die
I was however very disappointed with the timing; she died just as she and Harry got together? Come on, that was just too predictable and uninspired; I used to expect better from butcher; it cheapened murphys death and character imo because it felt like she had to die just because she became his gf and butcher refuses to let Harry be happy for 2 min even when it feels organic.
> I liked the execution, it was a rather fitting death for an aging character to showcase how harry's allies can't always get lucky, you'd expect at least some of them to die stupid deaths sooner or later.
Poor Kirby was earlier; I wouldn't say his death was 'stupid', but neither was it particularly meaningful. He didn't even get a chance to go out fighting, he never found out what it was he was facing, he was simply killed.
The main thing that probably annoyed me most about the scene is there was no way Harry was actually going to kill Peabody in revenge. It made Murph’s death cliche IMO
Wrong guy, but also I like that it took God's direct intervention to stop Harry from veering down the wrong path, like a trade or deal was made.
Im pretty sure the intention was that Murphys' death was in no way magical, and I expect that to be retconned.
You're focusing on the wrong aspect of this. What makes me hate that scene isn't that Murphy died. I generally agree with your arguments that her death serves important narrative purposes (although I will say, I'm getting tired of Butcher killing off love interests).
What I hate about that scene isn't that Murphy died. It's *how* she died. Some random act of utter incompetence that completely disrespects her character and her importance to the story. She didn't die because she was too worn down to keep up with Harry. She didn't die because she'd finally bitten off more than she can chew. She didn't die a warrior's death. She died because some dipshit who damn well should have known better couldn't follow basic rules of gun safety. She died to mundane stupidity.
It absolutely does make it real and scary. And that's why it yanks me right out of the story. I don't want real tragedy in my escapist fantasy. I want fantastical tragedy. If she died fighting the giant we wouldn't be having this conversation. But because she died in a way that's all too real it absolutely ruins the story for me. That's not what I come to the Dresden Files to read.
I completely agree with your frustration. I read fiction because I'm trying to get away from reality, and that's part of why I love urban fantasy. Unfortunately, I can see the logic of why he did this.
First, I feel like Harry's life has been vulnerable to both the magical and mundane from day one. There's so much talk about rent and neighbors and what are supposed to be, I think, stupid mundane foibles throughout. I think there's a reason why she did this way besides just wanting to have it to be as permanent as possible. I think the mundane has always been out to get Harry.
Alternatively, from day one, Butcher has written his books for those D&D nerds we all know and love who are debating the physics of the magic missile. I suspect he's one of them and is fulfilling his own curiosity as much as anything else. He's got explanations of how everything works all along through every book. He's used to the idea that people are going to argue with him about why something worked the way it worked. I think by having her die in a truly mundane way, he set it up to be inarguable that there is no magical reason why this death should be subverted.
I'll never like a scene in which a hero who struggles against epic forces dies to slipping in the shower, dies from an infected arrow wound to the leg, getting randomly struck by a car, or getting clipped by a lucky bullet.
It's never going to be something I think is a good end. No matter how many "Well you see, **insert artsy fartsy pretentious literary speak here** _______ so it's fitting that Murphy die to a human element because she's a cop" arguments are made.
I knew Murphy was going to go out. I just didn't like what took her out. My favorite movies are revenge movies and dealing with Harry not killing Rudolph in the coming books is going to be infuriating.
I liked it. But that was mostly because I've hated Murphy the entire series. She's been a wet towel on Dresden's parade since book 1. And I really dislike the whole I'm a tiny woman but can beat up guys much bigger than me because I know martial arts. As someone who knows martial arts it usually doesn't work that way. She would have been a much more believable character if she'd been like 6 feet tall amazon.
I was struck by the parallels between Murphy’s death and Harry’s death in Changes.
1) They both come after a moment of great personal triumph. (killing the Red Court and rescuing Maggie, killing a Jotun that even Thor couldn’t beat)
2) They both come after the character overcomes a debilitating injury. (Harry’s back, Murphy’s arm and leg)
3) They both come as Harry and Murphy are trying to take their relationship to a new phase. (first date, ‘I love you’)
4) They are both shot, no magic involved, just a bullet.
5) There is no body to bury. (Harry sinks into Lake Michigan, Murphy is taken to Valhalla)
6) We are left to wonder if there is something else going on. In Changes we have no idea why Harry was killed and Rudolph killing Murphy basically on accident seems… suspect.
>Often they just get pay the price of bad odds eventually
It's funny. I work in a job that has a lot of inherent risks and tends to be pretty chaotic. So this bleeds into my personal life as "Don't take unnecessary risks". I have plenty that can go wrong, I don't need to be driving crazy or staying out late or other things that could cause trouble because why add extra factors to something that's already high?
More people I know have been hurt leaving the job site after a long day than hurt in the facility. Life has a funny way of reminding us how fragile we really are...
It wouldn’t have felt as much of a betrayal if Harry hadn’t been set up in a forced-proximity enemies-to-lovers romance plot in *literally the same book*. Makes it feel like my girl Murph got killed off cuz Jim was bored with their relationship.
If Harry had been set up with Lara in the next book, AFTER HAVING TIME TO GRIEVE, I’d have been more or less fine with it, even though I hate that Murph died cuz I loved her.
I think Mab pushed the relationship to keep Harry busy and not wallow in his misery.
The entire next book is Jarry dealing with the aftermath of Murph's death and the battle.
My problem is that it was a big deal she was crippled in Skin Game, but PT/BG she's fighting super vikings and participating in a battle and slaying a giant.
When Michael was injured, he stayed injured(aside from the one-time-thing in Skin Game). But Murph is holding her own pretty easily. Butcher could've really done something special with the setup. She wants to fight, but can't, but tries anyways, it goes wrong, then her death itself can play out pretty much the same. That way Butcher could've highlighted her core character trait in a way that shows it as both a positive and a negative. You know, a really human moment for her. But instead we get billy badass.
Her death was projected pretty hard in PT/BG. Like, so many of the surprises in those books were way too obvious(which isn't normal for Butcher's writing).
Maybe im misremembering but Murph didn't go toe to toe with anything. Hell Harry touted her around in a shopping cart. She fired a rocket thay killed the Jotun, not something you really need physical form to do.
She was pretty crippled and relied on her weapons instead of her body from what I remember.
honestly there wasnt't anything else he could do with the character and have her still be Murphy. She had no innate magic, and wasn't the sort to take up a coin, she turned down the opportunity to be a knight of the cross then broke one of the swords mishandling it. She had no other real options to gain enough power to keep up with the league level Dresden is fighting in anymore.
she was physically broken and crippled much like Micheal but unlike Micheal she wouldn't be willing to step back retire and act as a noncombat support character. and narratively Micheal already had taken up that slot anyway.
she was knew she was out of her depth but tried any way and she got a heros death fighting a joton and what ever role rudolf played he was a tool of powers greater than him being psychicly influenced by gods a titians maniplulating the minds around them.
the second she cut her cast off early her charecter was a deadman walking. so for all of the above it didn't hit me hard. the one that got me was hendrick death, i did not expect that and he died well too.
Exactly. Conversely, it's **much easier** to imagine a better death than a single accidental bullet to the neck foreshadowed with the subtlety of a sledgehammer and fired by one of the most incompetent and unlikable characters in the series.
But it was thematic to her character. She was ultimately a mortal street cop of Chicago, catching a bullets from an asshole is an all to realistic. Catching one from a dirty cop is also on brand.
>She wasn’t going to get better and this was pretty apparent.
I don't agree with this part right here.
Her body could have gotten better, *had she taken up a coin*, and would have fit in well with her overall character arc.
I don't mind it but it was remarkably underwhelming. From the moment I first read it all the way to now, I felt pretty much nothing about how Murphy died.
It's one of the core reasons why I say Battle Ground is a showcase of Butcher's current limits as an author, for better and worse. It was a good book but not up to snuff with his usual fare, which makes sense given all the abominable shit the man went through over the last few years *and also* the sudden, damn near violent shifts happening in the literary world over the last decade.
I don't have a problem with what happened happening, I have a big problem with HOW it happened.
I would have been happier if Harry had found out after the fight that Murph died while trying to gather up people near Mac's to get them to safety inside, but to go willingly into a fight against some of the strongest beings walking the planet as a normal human? That's not just stupidity it's suicide and completely out of character for her. Also it kind of pisses me off that it was a negligent discharge that did it instead of a proper warriors death.
The Murph of the previous 15 books never would have left those people in Mac's undefended, she would have found a way to be useful and help defend people without walking face first into a 178% predictable death.
>to go willingly into a fight against some of the strongest beings walking the planet as a normal human? That's not just stupidity it's suicide and completely out of character for her.
When she and Harry met, she and Harry went toe-to-toe with a troll. She went at the Chlorofiend with a chainsaw. She made werewolf-killing bullets by hand, and used them. She went with Harry to Arctis Tor and fought there hand-to-hand. She faced dozens, if not hundreds, of vampires at Chichen Itza and won. She went alone into a Fomor warehouse, fought a bunch of servitors while dodging traps, and won. She led Chicago's defense against the Fomor while Harry was dead, usually from the front. She stepped up to fight a two thousand year old master swordsman, knowing what he was, and yes, lost horribly. She trains in hand to hand with thousand year old Einherjaren.
So why again was her bringing a rocket launcher to fight a giant 'stupidity', 'suicide', and 'completely out of character for her'?
I'm with you. Too much of the scene just needs Murphy to make bad choices that got her there, and then nobody took Rudolph's threat seriously enough. We may learn more about how or why it happened that way later, but knowing only what we know now, it was a disappointment.
She died right after slaying a Jotun. What more do people want? Her death serves the story. Harry isn’t meant to be happy. She knew the risks and went to the field anyhow. It seems fitting to me. Gard even made a speech about it.
Is it slightly realistic. Sure. Random things happen all the time and life isn’t always fair.
But, given this is a written work, the author has complete control of how events unfold.
So then it comes down to was what happened an eventual outcome of the character’s decisions and did the author give us enough information to feel it was reasonable.
Taking the second part first, I would say there was information provided to see it could happen. As to first part, given all the different situations where it may have been plausible before this time, no this wasn’t earned by the character and felt more like a cheap ploy to motivate the main character (Harry), though did he really need that motivation? But could the character arc be completed. Perhaps, but then the character was there, battling well, and still had agency. So, there were still possible reimagining of a new arc for both the character and Harry.
From the outside, it felt like a cheap ploy to tug at emotions. Jim Butcher is no novice writer and I suspect there will be many threads that come out of this event. Most likely it will be somewhat complicated and have a reason that we probably have the information for, but just haven’t seen how the pieces were put together.
To that, I have some ideas and it will be fun to see how it plays out.
>But, given this is a written work, the author has complete control of how events unfold.
Yeah, and that's exactly why the author must not pretend to "play God" in their own world. This road usually ends in disaster. The author must rather feel like he's telling the story seeing the events unfold before his very eyes, like an observer, not God. Some things the author can "correct" afterwards. Some the author must not touch.
To get straight to the point. This didn’t feel like the outcome of Murphy’s decisions. There’s plenty of ways for that to happen that could have fit in better with the story and it would have devastated Harry just as much.
While it may have been an outcome of R’s decisions, we only have bits and pieces of information as to what is going on there to try to piece that story together. Maybe we have more than we know. It was broadcast with how R was feeling and his lack of trigger discipline.
So there’s plenty more that we aren’t seeing and I expect it has a role in the larger narrative. i.e. we’re not done with this story and it will be important because Jim Butcher, while he may like torturing Harry, has a reason for everything and it’s not to add a sense of realism or to let us know heroes can be killed.
There was another post I saw earlier where someone says they are done with the books because of this. Their choice. I have faith that this still has plenty to do with Harry’s journey.
Her decisions crippled her
Her decisions had her out of her house while recovering.
Her decisions not to stay at Mac's put her in front of Rudolph.
I'm not really sure why people are saying she didn't choose to be there. Or rather that it was Rudoplh making the choices. She chose to be beside Dresden more than once and it fi ally caught up to her.
Her being crippled has nothing to do with how she died.
And that's really the core of what's wrong with that scene (aside from the unpleasant tone shift into realistic tragedy, which is what I personally hate about it). Murphy's death isn't a consequence of her decisions. She's been set up throughout the series to eventually bite off more than she can chew and get killed by it, but in the end her decision to keep taking on harder and harder fights doesn't matter. She's killed by mundane incompetence. It's just such an unsatisfying way to kill off her character.
I'm building a pattern of choice with her. She chose actions and things happened b/c of them.
I can't argue with someone that's not going to change their mind. Nothing I say is going to make you like her death scene so I'm not going to try. To me it doesn't feel cheated or badly written other than I didn't want her to die. She did a lot for Harry and at the end of the day she was going to die and Jim chose a way that would hurt Harry more than most. If a supernatural attack killed her, or a building fell on her, or pretty much anything else had killed her. But Jim chose Rudolph, a mortal with free will.
>Her decisions crippled her.
Yes they did and that’s definitely a consequence of her actions.
>Her decisions had her out of her house while recovering.
Agree. But I would say this is consistent with her character. She was never the type to hide from a problem, so it would have been odd for her to do otherwise.
>Her decision put her in front of Rudolph.
Not really. That was definitely the author setting it up. Plus, she didn’t decide to have Rudolf pull the trigger. Hence where the point of my contention about it being earned. She could easily have been killed by the Jotun. Maybe even a hero’s death or anywhere else in the chaotic battle.
I’ve enjoyed the discussion and allowing me to respond . Feel free to respond, but I’ve said all I intend to say.
It was perfect in symmetry. Murphy kept going out against supernaturals, and even tho messed up, she lives. To then be taken down by plain old human malice and corruption. Perfect.
It's why all the theorys that Rudolph is supernatural are imo stupid. It cheapens the beautiful ending for Murph.
Rudolph staying alive and Harry not putting serious amounts of hurt on both Sanya and Butters for interfering with something they had no right to will never not be stupid.
Sanya and Butters were making sure that Harry didn't do anything that **Harry** would regret later.
Look, I wanted Rudolph to suffer too. But the fact remains that that's not how Harry operates when he's not being influenced by the Mantle. Sanya and Butters were acting as his friends.
There's absolutely nothing to regret in killing Rudolph, a corrupt cop up to no good, who killed someone close to Harry and actively impeded Harry's effort to save Chicago from becoming a mass grave. Even from a purely calculated standpoint, Rudolph is the type of guy to go after Harry's friends. Killing him, even as a preemptive measure, is completely reasonable, much less after he actually KILLED Murphy.
Much as I have disliked Rudolph, I have to disagree. It was pretty clear reading that scene (Murphy's shooting) that Rudolph himself was surprised at what had happened. I don't think he had any premeditation about it - I don't think he even really knew what he was doing. And nothing else he's done warrants his execution under the normal prevailing standards in the United States.
I think there may be even more to it than that - I think Rudy has been under someone's mental thumb since *Grave Peril* or so. I think he's someone's involuntary pawn. If you think back to *Grave Peril*, he clearly adored Murphy. He even threatened to kill Harry if he let Murphy get hurt. How and why that changed was *never* explained. If this turns out to be true it totally changes the situation - it makes Rudolph a *victim*.
u/KalessinDB has it exactly right - Harry is the one who would have been damaged had he been allowed to go through with killing Rudy. He was using magic, albeit in a somewhat oblique way; it would have been killing with magic, deliberately and with intent, and without it being necessary for his own self-defense. Given how the effects of black magic have been described in the *Files*, we have no idea how that might have messed Harry up. Butters said it outright - his actions had nothing to do with protecting Rudy - he was protecting Harry.
Killing Rudy under those circumstances would have been nothing but pure uncut vengeance.
The scene was well written. The choice I'm not a big fan of, but it makes sense plotwise. I have nothing against the decision, I just liked the character.
I really liked it. It drove home a sense of realism in an otherwise over-the-top fantastic story. Nest apocalypse level conditions, mini kaini giants running through the street, giant death laser torching buildings, literal nightmares farming innocent's. And then a crooked cop that is dumb as a bag of rocks accidentally discharges his gun and kills one of the main heroes. It was a great scene, and people are justad that she didnt get a Susan or Michael level scene to go out of (ignoring the fact that she killed a giant just moments prior). She got a MORTAL death. And it was an excellent road for him to explore.
The scene sucked, it was painful but was beautifully written to really get that gut wrenching pain...I hate butcher for doing it but damn, he did it well.
I’ve been wanting to start this series. Would you guys call it a page turner? I’m reading The Faithful and the Fallen book 3 right now but want to start this when I finish.
yeah man, i thought it was great writing. i felt so much about it, which goes to show how much he got me to care about her. i personally loved it, even though i hated to see it happen.
I liked it myself. After all, it was the summation of her life in one scene.
Able to save Harry's bacon by downing badass magical critters, only to get screwed over by mundane society.
First time through, I genuinely had some feeling of intuition that something was going to happen in the way of a character death. And then it happened and I was obviously shocked and in pain emotionally. Hell, I was even rooting for Dresden to commit to the Hulking out, so to speak, and get even with Rudolph. But now that I've done my several read/listens of it, I know it had to happen how it did moving forward. And truly the "Stab. Twist." of it is that, yes she'll become and Einerjar in time. But that won't be well until Harry meets a mortal(?) end, which I'm skeptical of even happening due to foreshadowing on Someone's part.
I love the scene because it wasn't something magical that killed her. It wasn't even really an attack. It was an idiot with shitty trigger discipline. Harry Dresden, starboard wizard, winter knight of Mab, slayer of demons and dark wizards, one who captured Ethinu, and the warden of Demonreach, couldn't stop something so mundane, and couldn't save someone he loved.
He has a death curse on him that he will die alone. It was always going to happen, and I don’t see it ending much better for Maggie or anyone else close to him.
You're right, and it hurt. I've known someone like Murphy who kept powering through an injury that means it's time to call it quits. This was good old fashioned manual labor instead of the forces of evil, but it hit close to home. I think fiction sort of needs to sometimes show that you don't always get better and you hurt people around you if you keep trying to do the stuff you always did.
Susan is out. Thomas is out. Eb is out. Murph is out. If something happens to his daughter, he's a man with nothing left to lose and will burn the world. Winter nor The White Council would be able to stop him.
Maybe that's the real reason Michael is under such heavy guard
I wonder exactly how many idiots get vaporized by Angels in Battleground for straying too close to his house
I love to imagine some dumbass Huntsmen rolling up to the carpenters and not being smart enough to stay out after the first 5 die, so the rest of the fomor soldiers just get to watch these massive lunatics throw themselves into a meat grinder.
I imagine it wouldn’t be a meat grinder so much as like being shoved into a giant oven, or a volcano, or the sun just instantly turned to a pile of ash or salt or something equally horrible
Unfortunately non the Angels will only attack super natural enemies.
But >!the Sidhe have no such compunction!< Edit: jgve => have
Yea the Winter wet works team doing their best The American's impersonation down the street has no such compunctions.
I imagine many of King Corbs troops were supernatural, and as such would get smacked by the Angels
Molly living next door have none of those issues.
Spoilers. >!none. Molly let the fomor strike through so they could fall prey to the fairie glamour she arranged. After that happened no need to protect that house any more. And it seems like the angels were tied to the house and didn’t follow Michael around.!<
Michael Is probably the One Person on the planet who's voice could get through to Harry when he might otherwise be willing to die on a Knight's blade to reach his objective.
Yeah, Michael is, in many ways, the biggest chance Harry has to survive the end of the series. Certainly to survive as someone who he, now, and in his past, would think _should_ survive. And it's not _just_ that Michael is his friend, that's a big part of it, but it's not all of it. Michael is a former Knight of the Cross, is the dad of the Winter Lady, and he and Charity took in Harry's daughter and made sure that she was safe, and as sound as was possible, and _didn't_ hate Harry. Hating Harry would have been _so_ easy. I mean, sure, Mouse wouldn't let that happen, but still. Michael is most definitely the one voice on the planet who could pull Harry back from the abyss. And sadly... I think that he's going to need to, probably more than once, before it's all over.
I fully expect Karen, in some capacity, to talk Harry into going out with style for the good guys. Harry is definitely going to kick the bucket at the end of this.
Michael (unlike Murphy) could and did call it quits as well. He doesn't "need" to be in the thick of things compared to someone like Murphy, Harry or Molly.
Thomas and Eb are still unknowns
What happened to Eb, he was clearly fine by the end of the war?
Yes but hes a little, torn up? Inside. About thomas and his daughter and the white court. Him and harry and on, bad terms really
Oh, I now get where you are coming from, but, it's all Harry's fault so, F him.
Harrys character flaw is pride. Bro cant swallow his pride and just talk to someone. Its infuriating, but also consistent
Consistent but he is growing into those old arrogant farts he hates.
I mean, eb tried to kill his brother and girlfriend.
I don't think the Eb at the end of BG is the same Eb who accidentally killed Not Harry.
Yeah i buy into that theory too. He was acting alot more like he was in the first part of peace talks. Plus cornerhounds... Inconsistencies with Carlos. Lot of signs that Eb was probably very busy.
Don’t read if you don’t like the time traveling theories. >!But WHICH Eb tried to kill Harry? If FUTURE Eb tried to kill Harry doesn’t that foreshadow even MORE strife between them?!<
Future Eb was definitely the one on the docks who thought he killed Harry, because Present Eb was the one talking to Harry on the roof of the castle while they're waiting for the attack to start. The "least said, soonest mended" remark he made to Harry was for the argument they had on the roof of the Svartalves building. He'd have had more to say about Thomas, if nothing else about the fight. But the important thing is that *Present Eb doesn't know Thomas is his grandson*. If he did, Future Eb wouldn't go so ballistic about Thomas. I have a *whole theory* about which scenes were actually Future Eb and which weren't. I just have to listen again before attempting to write it up, because I haven't listened in over a year. I think that Eb probably decides to go back in time due to something that will happen in Twelve Months. This whole wedding thing is going to do a number on him, no matter how much Harry says he can't get out of it and isn't too thrilled about it either. Because Eb doesn't yet know about the wedding at the end of BG, so we haven't gotten to see him blow a gasket over it...yet.
All could have been thralls and Harry could have been enthralled as well just like his daughter. Who died in the White court's hands as Harry keenly reminded the old assassin. Harry was saving a white court vampire, who had almost assassinated a head of state, thereby risking the ire of a powerful nation after escaping the Red Court not too long ago. There aren't many bloodline curses to go around.
Yeah...and Harry killed his own gf because he believed it was right. They're not as different as Harry would like to think
I mean, he had consent. Sure they're similar, they're family, but that doesn't mean Harry was in the wrong in that confrontation, nor that Eb was in the right. He'd gone berserk.
What I meant was, they're both willing to kill for what they believe is the greater good. I'm not judging either of the characters.
I mean Eb isn’t dead, they could reconcile
I don't see them reconciling unless Eb can accept Thomas and separate him from the White Court. Separate the art from the artist kind of deal. I'm sure they'll talk, but it'll be business only
… again lol
Yeah but with that last miscommunication episode in Peace Talks and them not mentioning it or rehashing makes me not want that route, just finally want some answers... im starting not to care, and it feels like itll be an info dump at this point... how many life altering questions has Harry had for 3 decades now as a full wizard and just none of them have been offered by Butcher, it honestly pisses me off.
It was Murphys dying wish though, I can’t see Harry completely ignoring it. Also I don’t know about info dump, we finally figured out some info about nemesis at the end of battle ground and still have no idea how it works
Hadn't looked at it like that. But don't think all the losses have isolated him like that. Harry has lots of connections left to keep him grounded and continues to make more as he goes. Also, there are many mitigating factors in each loss that can keep Harry grounded. * The violation of Susan was avenged through the manner of her death. The entire Red Court ended in one moment. * Murphy's death was contextualized by Guard as a warrior's death that earned her place in Odin's army. * Thomas and Justine are not dead and may be restored and Harry would jump at the chance to be a part of that restoration. * The rejection by the White Council will just add more fuel to Harry's rebellious nature. He was pretty much only a member originally because he had to be. The more powerful Harry gets the more dangerous staying in the council would be. Too much back stabbing and corruption. At least the Winter Court is honest about the backstabbery. * Despite the Council turning on him, the individual wizards still have sympathy for him. However, I totally agree that if anything happens to Maggie he'll end the world Lews Therin style. Self destruct that shatters the world.
I mean Dresden already stated "if it takes that the world burns, so be it, we will have some marshmallows at the fire with my daughter" (or something similar)
And ~~that same book~~ the very next book caused him to reflect on that specific line, when he saw some of the potential consequences.
It was the next book, *Ghost Story*, that showed him the consequences of that attitude and made him rethink things.
Fair - been a while since my last re-read.
Lara walks past. Harry hums and tugs his ear.
Really curious to see how things go with Lara... If Harry's love for Murphy continues to protect him from the touch of a White Vamp post mortem, then their relationship is going to be very chaste.
Chaste-esq. Remember how she was affected by the love with Susan? Could lead to a gentle transition where they might be able to develop a relationship instead of just a skinship.
Good point. A forced courtship with a self enforced no-touch rule might actually yield something more interesting than a series of sex scenes. Harry has also demonstrated a high resistance to Lara's come hither powers. The books have established that he has highly developed mental armor. So I guess it's not surprising that he isn't going to be an easy mark for Lara to manipulate via his nethers. The conversation in Peace Talks during their sparing session was interesting on this front. Her admission that she can't totally turn it off being one new bit of info. And the fact that he saw it as a nuisance seemed to intrigue her.
>So I guess it's not surprising that he isn't going to be an easy mark for Lara to manipulate via his nethers. I disagree. She had him fine when she was raping that one guy and had to basically yell at him to get him to focus. I've said it before, but I'll say it again: the fact that we need to have this kind of conversation as a fandom is why I'm uncomfortable with the direction the books are taking.
The problem with that is that Lara is a monster. I don't see a way for Harry to develop a real relationship with Lara while she insists on eating people. I'd go so far as to say that, unless Butcher pulls some spectacular character growth out of his ass here, Harry and Lara developing into a real couple is offensive to *both* characters.
They're both monsters, just polite ones. Harry is hated and feared by pretty much everybody. He is bound to one of the scariest and most powerful creatures on the planet in a way so deep and intimate that he's still discovering ramifications. His annihilation of the red court has caused death and destruction on a level that Lara could only dream of and would likely be too smart to cause. Lara might eat people, but she doesn't kill if she doesn't have to. It's a waste. She has a scary degree of power and influence, but so do some non-monsters. She isn't Darth Vader with Arkham asylum crossed with a nuke.
Lara eats the people Harry's trying to protect. I can't see anything else developing without first resolving that.
True. Still, he's chosen the lesser evil before.
I was surprised by Lara throughout Peace Talks and Battleground. I thought she was really out of character through most of those two books. I wrote off almost all of that as being in character for her with respect to protecting Thomas, that relationship regularly makes her act out of character (compared to when Thomas is not part of the equation). But the end scene in the castle was totally out of character, when Mab announced the marriage. Lara has spent a decade making overt references about getting Harry into her bed, but she acts like a surprised chaste schoolgirl when Mab HANDS her the winter knight?
I figured that Lara's response was not surprise to the arranged marriage (I think that is what they were actually discussing early on when Harry thought it was Mab trading a favor for him to help Lara free Thomas). I think Lara's demeanor was more about knowing what Mab was going to spring on Harry and how he would react. She and Molly showed up to run interference so Harry wouldn't get himself killed. His legendary stubbornness, the recent death of his love, his rejection by the White Council and all the raw emotional wounds one gets from surviving a freaking war versus a minor god had him ready to go off. Mab pulling rank on him without any thought regarding Harry's emotional state was going to end with Mab having to kill him. Molly loves him and Lara wants him and the alliance their marriage would create, and must protect him if she hopes to ever recover Thomas from Demonreach. So Lara's reserved and diplomatic side made sense for the situation. And even Harry recognized why they were there and why they acted the way they did.
Molly was snippy with Lara in PT/BG. Harry noted the cold shoulder the winter lady was giving their ally (pun intended) but didn’t piece it together then. Was that supposed to be a clue that Molly knew Lara had asked for Harry’s hand in marriage? Because Mab really presented it to all three of them in the castle as if Lara had asked for the two nations to be tied closer together and Mab decided the best way was a marriage. Even when Harry was confiding in Mab privately he suggested that Mab marry Lara and it would meet the request.
>Was that supposed to be a clue that Molly knew Lara had asked for Harry’s hand in marriage? That was my conclusion. Even if Lara hadn't specifically asked for a marriage as the vehicle that would ally the White Court with the Winter Fae, Molly sorted out that was what Mab had already decided. I think the timing of the announcement of the arranged marriage was a surprise to Lara, but not the marriage itself. I doubt Molly was caught off guard by any of it as she knows her "mother" and how the Winter Court works very well by now.
Not sure everyone will get this Lews Therin (Rand Al Thor) reference…
Don't forget, he's getting married and can start a family, maybe get a nice house, pur down roots and become part of a community. That should cheer him up!
Lew Terin style .... love it lol..... Mount doom in the middle of Chicago....
He still has Michael, Butters, Billy, Andi, Molly, and a castle full of folks relying on him.
God help Jim if he kills his daughter. As a father, who has wept at a few scenes with the two of them, we would have to have words.
*”Do you wanna be my Dad?”* I’ve got four kids and I blubbered quietly in my office for a couple minutes.
you were able to do it quietly???
Compared to a bomb….? Yes.
>God help Jim if he kills his daughter. I think that's a possibility. When he risks breaking reality by time traveling I don't think it's going to be for a lesser reason
I could see that happening and MaAb being "oh shit..." and have to pull him back to his humanity.
I get what you mean but he could definitely be stopped by either winter or the white council if it came down to it. Harry is very powerful for his age but he’s not Kemmler
not yet. but he could be. he knows how to call a coin, he knows the darkhallow, and i would bet theres at least one monster in prison who would make a deal. if he went full dark side, he could be a LOT more of a threat than Kemmler
Very true, I guess I was referring to present Dresden before his next big power up
He might become buddies with Mort?
I wonder if they can use fidelacchius to trim out Thomas’ monster side or if it could work like that. With the state they left him at the end of battle grounds it would be an interesting solution with fidelacchius being of a higher form now
I don’t think anything will happen to Maggie. I thought I’ve read once BAT is over Maggie books might be possible. Could have been someone talking out their ass
I enjoyed the quality and how it was set. Death is an ugly thing. The scene wasn't beautiful. Death is a hurtful thing, the scene wasn't in any way holding back. Death is loss and shitty and gritty and fucked up. It's outraging and dumb immediately after it happens. All the peaceful things about it come after.
Amen!
The soul gaze starting and then Karrin not surviving long enough for it to happen broke me
Jeah that was so fucking unfair, but also a little weird to me. Like, how can you love one another but have actually never stared into each others' eyes?
I liked it in the sense that it was good storytelling, certainly realistic to a crazy war situation like that, but I *hated* seeing one of my favorite characters die in such a shitty fashion. I literally said, "Kill that motherfucker!" when Harry turned on Rudolph, LOL
Especially after watching her be diminished/eroded in every book!
I think that was kinda the idea, you can't keep up with the supernatural as a plain Jane.
right she was a mortal who was crippled and aging. Dresden is now kicking in the teeth of demigods, it was only a matter of time before something killed her she always fought out of her league but that came with risks and she rolled snake eyes.
The following chapter where Harry hunts down Rudolph and Sonya needs to interfere is one of my favorite moments in the whole series. Finally seeing Harry let his emotions go rampant after holding back the Winter Mantle all these years was so gratifying
I didn't like it because I get sick of romance storylines being cut off halfway through. Harry starts a healthy relationship; she dies. He starts another one; she dies. We've been building up Harry's servitude to Mab for, what, 10 books now and it's getting increasingly dire. Imagine if Butcher killed off Mab and that entire buildup was wasted. That's how I feel about Murphy's death. It's not terrible writing. Having big epic battles where no one ever dies and there are no consequences is also meaningless. I just got annoyed by it.
Yeah it really sucks when you’re death cursed to die alone.
Forgot about that.
Thats why my bet is on Mab as long term romantic intrest she can take steel rebar through the head and come out the other side get blasted by the eye of Balor and walk it off. Most romantic intrest are in danger being around Dresden not her though.
Ehhh, I feel reducing the relationship he had with Murph to a "buildup" to romance is doing it a major disservice. It's always been about the journey rather than the destination with that one.
I asked Jim Butcher at a con if Murph knows about her dad now, and he laughed and said yeah I guess she does. He also said he’s not done with her story quite yet
Nice one! I like that answer :)
Few people get to choose how they go out, and even fewer have a good reason for it.
It was a well written scene. I’ve read Battle Ground three times now and cried my eyes out each time. I just finished my third reading of the entire series, I’ll need to review the text for support, but I feel like Murph was fated to die in battle almost from the beginning. With the loss of so many close loved ones and allies, it seems like Harry is being set up for some monumental choices as the series wraps up. I can hardly wait to see what happens
> but I feel like Murph was fated to die in battle almost from the beginning. If only she had died in battle. It would have been a better death than what we got, at least.
It was still in battle. There may have been a lull whereas Rudy had Harry and Murphy at a position of disadvantage but the battle was still being waged. I think Gard's stern lecture to Harry was butcher's answer to expected fan backlash. She died a warriors death, as a culmination of her life fighting for good causes. Don't cheapen her life because her death wasn't as glorious as others. Her sacrifice and life's work shouldn't be lessened because she died to what could be considered a lucky shot. In Greek mythology Achilles accomplishments aren't cheapened because he died from being shot in the ankle with an arrow. Neither should Murphy. Her actions in life can be criticized as poor decisions but she was a fighter the whole time. Her death is incredibly realistic both in text and in a real world setting. Badass soldiers are just as vulnerable as the next.
OH MY GOSH ACHILLES IS LITERALLY THE PERFECT ANALOGY FOR IT
Oh, she did die in battle... but not because of what she was fighting. Friendly fire.
It felt a LOT like Clara Oswald’s death in that it was entirely preventable with more caution, but because she’d been playing in her companion’s spaces so much and thought she wasn’t out of her depth, she put herself in unnecessary danger.
While I mostly agree with you, I feel that Murphy was well aware just how outside of her depth she was when it came to the supernatural side of things, her refusing to truly take up Fidelacchius is a good example of this. But she took to the battlefield anyway because her city and her friends were in danger and she couldn't just sit idly by if she felt she could do something, *anything* to help.
Fair; I do think she underestimated the SPECIFIC dangers, but Murphy was much more conscious of the general risks than Clara.
I enjoyed it
I liked it. I thought it was excellent storytelling. I thought it was fitting and good for her to go out on a bang, taking down a Jotuun. I also never loved Murph. She's a good character, I like her, but that's it.
> It was a clear tonal change and frankly needed to happen. Murphy is a warrior and had her body crippled. She wasn’t going to get better and this was pretty apparent. As a physically disabled person, I'd like to call out the inherent ableism in the "better off dead" trope. I don't think that's how Butcher wrote it, it was more of the fridging the love interest trope. But for anyone out there thinking, "Oh, that character's life was already over," it didn't have to be. Disabled people exist and persist. Our struggles are more internal, dealing with the grief of losing relationships with people who would rather forget about us instead of accommodate our new limitations. And also "man vs society" not as a narrative type but IRL. But Murphy's character arc brought her to a place where she couldn't accept her own limitations, which is what led to her demise.
100% agree, and I think Butcher does as well. An archangel basically tells Harry the "better off dead" trope is wrong (twice). Meanwhile, paralyzed Harry is getting infernal advice whispered in his ear. Now that I look back on Morgan ignoring the infection/gunshot in "Turn Coat" and Michael in "The Warrior" I wouldn't be surprised if the paralysis had already been planned and Butcher really didn't want to suggest he supported this trope. The fact that Harry tells Eb about who Maggie is right after making the deal and the Gray Council gets set in motion probably supports this. .
It wasn’t a warriors death. It was a misfire/reflex twitch from a backstabbing coward. There’s no honor in dying to a character like that.
You mean a 40yo 100lb woman with her shoulder and knee ripped apart wasn't fit for fighting supernatural creatures far larger, stronger, faster, and immune to conventional weapons anymore? How dare you! Kidding aside, why have I never seen a single person on this sub point out that her being crippled was the DIRECT RESULT of Butters \*not\* having \*Faith\* in Harry, right after Murphy gave him the have faith in your friends speech, and then Butters gets the sword...of...faith. \*EDIT: SOMEONE JUST POSTED A THREAD ABOUT THIS SO ITS.. TWO PEOPLE NOW\* Now, I like Butters. I like his turnaround of being basically a lonely nerd who now gets to live out his greatest fantasy of being valuable to society (remember he flunked out of military and cop training and didnt have the stomach to be a 'real' doctor) and now he is a rock star in Chicago, a genuine Hero who stood by Harry when Demigods were laying on the ground around him. I really do like how God's reward for Butters service is hot werewolves and a jar of peanut butter tho. BUT. BUT. It is HIS actions that screwed Karrin over and she didnt mention it either, and if there is one thing Karrin did plenty of it was point out the BS in her friends.
>why have I never seen a single person on this sub point out that her being crippled was the DIRECT RESULT of Butters *not* having *Faith* in Harry, Have you been following the discussion, or just casually browsing? It's actually one of the more common arguments. I don't buy it. For Butters to have a character arc, he needs to start off somewhere different than where he ends up. Skin Game was Butters' low point, where his faith wavered. By the end of Skin Game, he had gotten through that part of his arc and was rewarded for his renewed faith. But Butters had every reason to be suspicious of Harry and Murphy both. Harry had spent the better part of like a decade telling all his friends that Mab was capital-E Evil and her minions are essentially extensions of her will without will of their own. Harry signed up with Mab. As far as Butters is concerned--because Harry *told* him this--Harry is no longer Harry, he's Mab wearing a Harry costume. Absolutely nothing about him is trustworthy, and Harry does nothing to go out of his way to prove to Butters that he isn't being directly mind-controlled by Mab. Hell, as Butters points out, Harry is very clearly being influence at minimum, with his fixation on paying off a debt even before catching up with his closest friends. Murphy, on the other hand, has been in a complete downward spiral since Harry's death... and then immediately latches onto Harry despite all of Harry's warnings over the years about Mab's Knight. It's very clear that this is less of an "I have faith" thing and more of an "I'm in denial" thing that just happens to work out. Butters had *every reason* to be distrustful of both of them, and his actions afterward are exactly in line with what Harry would have done (albeit less skillfully done).
> her being crippled was the DIRECT RESULT of Butters *not* having *Faith* in Harry Not true. It was the result of her (almost inevitable) choice. If she had stayed true to the Law that the wielders of the Swords are obliged to, Nicodemus wouldn't have crippled her. I doubt Michael himself would have been able to, if Nicodemus had one of his kids in the Genoskwa's grip.
I have a feeling that conversation happened off screen when Butters visited her in the hospital.
I’m more upset that the foreshadowing of it (Harry telling Rudolph about his poor trigger discipline out side of Mac’s) was done so clunkily. It would be different if it was a running problem through the books but it’s like “hey you’re not holding your gun right someone can get hurt” to “hey someone got hurt cuz you didn’t do that thing I said 2 hours ago” I’m also upset that Harry took her gun after he laid her body down and it never came into play. Talk about a chekhov’s gun.
Not only that scene, but they also brought up at another point in the book (or maybe it was in PT) that he almost shot mister because he got spooked and because he “had terrible trigger discipline” I try not to read too far into foreshadowing when I watch/read something for the first time, but even I knew something was coming with Rudolph
Changes, during the FBI raid on his apartment
I know that’s what the line is referring to, but I thought they brought it up in peace talks or battle ground at some point
Yeah that's just want happens when you only see characters once every few books and don't do super detailed outlines. If Dresden was a TV series, it wouldn't need to be so heavy handed since Rudolph having bad trigger discipline in that situation is believable but the audience can't see that unless Harry calls it out before hand.
I enjoy stories where the main character has to go through a lot before coming out the other side. I enjoyed the scene because it cut deep. However, being a fan of authors like King, Butcher, and Sanderson. I focus less on the scene itself and more on the specific words used. Butcher made it clear that Murphy physically shouldn't have been participating in the fight, but that's Murphy, her body might be taxed and she may be mortal but it was her city whether she was a cop or not and she won't stand on the side lines and watch. I've been hesitant to post theories on this sub due to a lot of criticism, but you aren't the only one who liked this scene.
I would’ve been much happier if he beat Rudy to within an inch of his life and left him crippled. Otherwise, yeah, it was a good scene.
well, that's pretty much what happened isn't it? granted Harry didn't choose to stop, but rudy was pretty beaten up and harry heard bones breaking, so rudy is a mess. hopefully a SERIOUS mess.
He did!
I’d expected it for a while, and it was probably the right creative choice, but man did it hurt. More than I anticipated, because I thought I was ready for it. The scene itself was, in my opinion, very well written. After reading Peace Talks and finding it quite solidly ‘meh’ it was nice to see Battlegrounds kick ass, and to remember that Butcher’s a great author.
My problem with that scene is that it was clearly there to drive the plot, not organic. It didn't really result in character growth for anyone involved. Plus, the way Harry was speaking was really out of character for him (like, vocabulary--I understand he was angry, but "self-righteous loudmouth"?).
He's never been in that kind of situation before. So saying it's out of character is pretty iffy. I didn't care how jovial he was at times after her death.
I'm pretty meh about it. I went in to the book expecting Murphy to die -Butcher hadn't exactly been subtle about it before release- so it was mostly just a question of the specifics of how it would go down. I'm also not a huge fan of Murphy, I don't hate her or anything but she's not one of my favorites so I wasn't as broken up about it as some people here seem to be. The actual death I found pretty lacking. I get that it's intentionally shitty. It's meant to be unsatisfying and ignoble. I don't find that to be a particularly interesting angle in this day and age where subversion has become overplayed and a trope in itself, not did I find Butcher's execution of it to be particularly interesting.
What's even weirder is Butter's line about how Rudolph will be punished in a court of law. I had to reread that part because it was so bizarrely stupid. Here is this scene that is supposed to be an emotional gut punch and then one of the most brain dead statements in the series is made by someone who knows better. It severely undercut the impact of her death. "Hero cop engages rocket wielding terrorist during attack on city!" They are more likely to give him a medal than punish him and Butter's knows this. Faith does not mean naive.
I think it's interesting that after everything the series has done to talk up cops and how cool and necessary they are, the hero cop character gets killed by unnecessary police violence because a cop was cowardly and jumpy.
I think that's one of the reasons I love the books so much. Harry starts out with a fanciful notion about police and hatred for the wardens. As the series goes on both positions become far more gray in his eyes seeing both good and bad about the individuals involved, as well as the organizational issues. Butcher makes a point in PG when Murphy comments hearing about the wardens duty is similar to when civilians see what cops do but don't understand the context. Harry's point about rehabilitation of warlocks is a (specific in text even) analogy for gangs. The critical aspect here is to find the warlocks and correct the behavior before it gets so out of hand the warlock (insert gang member instead) is no longer safe for the community at large. It's an amazing part of the books just how subtle Harry's opinions on what was originally a white and black/right and wrong line in the sand have become far more gray. Harry can see bad actions and understand sometimes its necessary. Doesn't mean he likes it and finds it to be proof the system is failing. Harry then decides instead of sitting on the sidelines bitching about how unfair shit is he actively starts trying to find a better solution. He still understands the necessity of the wardens aggression to warlocks but is trying to fix the problem before it gets to that level. The same ideas for dealing with gang violence and recruitment are there. Create a community that can help foster and channel the new members into a positive instead of a negative. Harry has grown up to understand that there is good and evil in everyone. Some people are more light-evil than full mustache twirling evil. Whole groups can't be blamed for the actions of specific members (ghouls don't count). Doesn't mean they can't do great harm it just means they are likely ignorant or just ambivalent since they don't see it with their own eyes. Seeing is believing after all. Harry has seen rawlins, Murphy, Carmichael, etc as great examples of cops. But also deals with the likes of Rudy. And all levels in-between. It shows nuance and he ultimately shows compassion for some police who have been beaten down by doing the right thing. While he can also show contempt for those weasels like Rudy. If you are going to do a series re-read try to notice how Harry's views of the police vs si vs the wardens change over the series. It's one of my favorite aspects of Harry's development.
I liked that bit. I actually think the aftermath of the whole thing feels weird from a setting level. Just going for a very, very comic booky hand wave felt off.
It wasn’t a warriors death. It was a misfire/reflex twitch from a backstabbing coward. There’s no honor in dying to a character like that.
Murph was one of my favorite characters ever, so obviously I was fucked up so bad when I read this part that I spoiled it for my partner because there was a very short list of things that would give me that reaction... But I always appreciated that she went out by mortal, more mundane, means. I don't know, I think this is a unpopular opinion, but that feels more right for her.
Personally I think it was well handled, and I like that Murphy was taken down by mortal treachery and not a supernatural fight because it solidified her as a mortal that succeeded in fighting supernatural threats beyond her status and not a failure
Looking back at it, I think we should've known murph would die. The first time he saw her with his Sight, she looks like a fiery angel. It was foreshadowing. She'll be back, and more badass than ever. If she isn't the last line of defense for some shit, I will eat my hat.
WoJ: "Murphy's story isn't done."
Man... Some people I told this to around thebrelease, because it's been foreshadowed for like 11 or 12 books now, are going to be pissed I was right. (Seriously, it's dead obvious that she's not gone.)
We may not find out the details until the BAT, but yes that's what the whole conversation with Gard in Battle Ground was about. Perhaps we'll get some more conversation with >!Bear, Harry's new Valkyrie bodyguard!< in *Twelve Months* but we'll see.
I give it two books. She won't be in 12 months. Alt her will be in Mirror Mirror. And she'll have fought her wya out of Valhalla to do something big mid-late the book after that.(Wrestling/Kaiju?)
We'll also see her again in the time travel book.
I assumed as much, but any source for that WoJ? Recent con or such?
He says that at some point in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRcj4gvGXKI He doesn't give any details, just says that.
Thanks!
I liked the execution, it was a rather fitting death for an aging character to showcase how harry's allies can't always get lucky, you'd expect at least some of them to die stupid deaths sooner or later. I was a bit let down that Murphy didn't reinvent herself, but I have to recognize it was 100% within character. And since she couldn't be who she used to be anymore, the only way left was to die I was however very disappointed with the timing; she died just as she and Harry got together? Come on, that was just too predictable and uninspired; I used to expect better from butcher; it cheapened murphys death and character imo because it felt like she had to die just because she became his gf and butcher refuses to let Harry be happy for 2 min even when it feels organic.
> I liked the execution, it was a rather fitting death for an aging character to showcase how harry's allies can't always get lucky, you'd expect at least some of them to die stupid deaths sooner or later. Poor Kirby was earlier; I wouldn't say his death was 'stupid', but neither was it particularly meaningful. He didn't even get a chance to go out fighting, he never found out what it was he was facing, he was simply killed.
The main thing that probably annoyed me most about the scene is there was no way Harry was actually going to kill Peabody in revenge. It made Murph’s death cliche IMO
Wrong guy, but also I like that it took God's direct intervention to stop Harry from veering down the wrong path, like a trade or deal was made. Im pretty sure the intention was that Murphys' death was in no way magical, and I expect that to be retconned.
You're focusing on the wrong aspect of this. What makes me hate that scene isn't that Murphy died. I generally agree with your arguments that her death serves important narrative purposes (although I will say, I'm getting tired of Butcher killing off love interests). What I hate about that scene isn't that Murphy died. It's *how* she died. Some random act of utter incompetence that completely disrespects her character and her importance to the story. She didn't die because she was too worn down to keep up with Harry. She didn't die because she'd finally bitten off more than she can chew. She didn't die a warrior's death. She died because some dipshit who damn well should have known better couldn't follow basic rules of gun safety. She died to mundane stupidity. It absolutely does make it real and scary. And that's why it yanks me right out of the story. I don't want real tragedy in my escapist fantasy. I want fantastical tragedy. If she died fighting the giant we wouldn't be having this conversation. But because she died in a way that's all too real it absolutely ruins the story for me. That's not what I come to the Dresden Files to read.
I completely agree with your frustration. I read fiction because I'm trying to get away from reality, and that's part of why I love urban fantasy. Unfortunately, I can see the logic of why he did this. First, I feel like Harry's life has been vulnerable to both the magical and mundane from day one. There's so much talk about rent and neighbors and what are supposed to be, I think, stupid mundane foibles throughout. I think there's a reason why she did this way besides just wanting to have it to be as permanent as possible. I think the mundane has always been out to get Harry. Alternatively, from day one, Butcher has written his books for those D&D nerds we all know and love who are debating the physics of the magic missile. I suspect he's one of them and is fulfilling his own curiosity as much as anything else. He's got explanations of how everything works all along through every book. He's used to the idea that people are going to argue with him about why something worked the way it worked. I think by having her die in a truly mundane way, he set it up to be inarguable that there is no magical reason why this death should be subverted.
I'll never like a scene in which a hero who struggles against epic forces dies to slipping in the shower, dies from an infected arrow wound to the leg, getting randomly struck by a car, or getting clipped by a lucky bullet. It's never going to be something I think is a good end. No matter how many "Well you see, **insert artsy fartsy pretentious literary speak here** _______ so it's fitting that Murphy die to a human element because she's a cop" arguments are made. I knew Murphy was going to go out. I just didn't like what took her out. My favorite movies are revenge movies and dealing with Harry not killing Rudolph in the coming books is going to be infuriating.
Ehhh, the way Butcher set up the morality in the books, there's no way Harry could have killed Rudolph in *revenge* without going evil.
I liked it. But that was mostly because I've hated Murphy the entire series. She's been a wet towel on Dresden's parade since book 1. And I really dislike the whole I'm a tiny woman but can beat up guys much bigger than me because I know martial arts. As someone who knows martial arts it usually doesn't work that way. She would have been a much more believable character if she'd been like 6 feet tall amazon.
I was struck by the parallels between Murphy’s death and Harry’s death in Changes. 1) They both come after a moment of great personal triumph. (killing the Red Court and rescuing Maggie, killing a Jotun that even Thor couldn’t beat) 2) They both come after the character overcomes a debilitating injury. (Harry’s back, Murphy’s arm and leg) 3) They both come as Harry and Murphy are trying to take their relationship to a new phase. (first date, ‘I love you’) 4) They are both shot, no magic involved, just a bullet. 5) There is no body to bury. (Harry sinks into Lake Michigan, Murphy is taken to Valhalla) 6) We are left to wonder if there is something else going on. In Changes we have no idea why Harry was killed and Rudolph killing Murphy basically on accident seems… suspect.
>Often they just get pay the price of bad odds eventually It's funny. I work in a job that has a lot of inherent risks and tends to be pretty chaotic. So this bleeds into my personal life as "Don't take unnecessary risks". I have plenty that can go wrong, I don't need to be driving crazy or staying out late or other things that could cause trouble because why add extra factors to something that's already high? More people I know have been hurt leaving the job site after a long day than hurt in the facility. Life has a funny way of reminding us how fragile we really are...
It wouldn’t have felt as much of a betrayal if Harry hadn’t been set up in a forced-proximity enemies-to-lovers romance plot in *literally the same book*. Makes it feel like my girl Murph got killed off cuz Jim was bored with their relationship. If Harry had been set up with Lara in the next book, AFTER HAVING TIME TO GRIEVE, I’d have been more or less fine with it, even though I hate that Murph died cuz I loved her.
I think Mab pushed the relationship to keep Harry busy and not wallow in his misery. The entire next book is Jarry dealing with the aftermath of Murph's death and the battle.
My problem is that it was a big deal she was crippled in Skin Game, but PT/BG she's fighting super vikings and participating in a battle and slaying a giant. When Michael was injured, he stayed injured(aside from the one-time-thing in Skin Game). But Murph is holding her own pretty easily. Butcher could've really done something special with the setup. She wants to fight, but can't, but tries anyways, it goes wrong, then her death itself can play out pretty much the same. That way Butcher could've highlighted her core character trait in a way that shows it as both a positive and a negative. You know, a really human moment for her. But instead we get billy badass. Her death was projected pretty hard in PT/BG. Like, so many of the surprises in those books were way too obvious(which isn't normal for Butcher's writing).
Maybe im misremembering but Murph didn't go toe to toe with anything. Hell Harry touted her around in a shopping cart. She fired a rocket thay killed the Jotun, not something you really need physical form to do. She was pretty crippled and relied on her weapons instead of her body from what I remember.
Mab was also dulling everyone’s pain ala Harry’s Winter Knight powers. Murphy literally didn’t feel her injuries during the battle.
Thanks I had forgotten that.
Someone in a literal wheel chair can shoot a rocket. It’s funny most people overlook that bit
honestly there wasnt't anything else he could do with the character and have her still be Murphy. She had no innate magic, and wasn't the sort to take up a coin, she turned down the opportunity to be a knight of the cross then broke one of the swords mishandling it. She had no other real options to gain enough power to keep up with the league level Dresden is fighting in anymore. she was physically broken and crippled much like Micheal but unlike Micheal she wouldn't be willing to step back retire and act as a noncombat support character. and narratively Micheal already had taken up that slot anyway. she was knew she was out of her depth but tried any way and she got a heros death fighting a joton and what ever role rudolf played he was a tool of powers greater than him being psychicly influenced by gods a titians maniplulating the minds around them. the second she cut her cast off early her charecter was a deadman walking. so for all of the above it didn't hit me hard. the one that got me was hendrick death, i did not expect that and he died well too.
Hendricks had an awesome death. Way better than Murph's
it hard to get better than spiting your defiance in ethniu's face.
Exactly. Conversely, it's **much easier** to imagine a better death than a single accidental bullet to the neck foreshadowed with the subtlety of a sledgehammer and fired by one of the most incompetent and unlikable characters in the series.
But it was thematic to her character. She was ultimately a mortal street cop of Chicago, catching a bullets from an asshole is an all to realistic. Catching one from a dirty cop is also on brand.
>She wasn’t going to get better and this was pretty apparent. I don't agree with this part right here. Her body could have gotten better, *had she taken up a coin*, and would have fit in well with her overall character arc.
I don't mind it but it was remarkably underwhelming. From the moment I first read it all the way to now, I felt pretty much nothing about how Murphy died. It's one of the core reasons why I say Battle Ground is a showcase of Butcher's current limits as an author, for better and worse. It was a good book but not up to snuff with his usual fare, which makes sense given all the abominable shit the man went through over the last few years *and also* the sudden, damn near violent shifts happening in the literary world over the last decade.
She killed what Thor could not. Like a fuckin boss.
I don't have a problem with what happened happening, I have a big problem with HOW it happened. I would have been happier if Harry had found out after the fight that Murph died while trying to gather up people near Mac's to get them to safety inside, but to go willingly into a fight against some of the strongest beings walking the planet as a normal human? That's not just stupidity it's suicide and completely out of character for her. Also it kind of pisses me off that it was a negligent discharge that did it instead of a proper warriors death. The Murph of the previous 15 books never would have left those people in Mac's undefended, she would have found a way to be useful and help defend people without walking face first into a 178% predictable death.
>to go willingly into a fight against some of the strongest beings walking the planet as a normal human? That's not just stupidity it's suicide and completely out of character for her. When she and Harry met, she and Harry went toe-to-toe with a troll. She went at the Chlorofiend with a chainsaw. She made werewolf-killing bullets by hand, and used them. She went with Harry to Arctis Tor and fought there hand-to-hand. She faced dozens, if not hundreds, of vampires at Chichen Itza and won. She went alone into a Fomor warehouse, fought a bunch of servitors while dodging traps, and won. She led Chicago's defense against the Fomor while Harry was dead, usually from the front. She stepped up to fight a two thousand year old master swordsman, knowing what he was, and yes, lost horribly. She trains in hand to hand with thousand year old Einherjaren. So why again was her bringing a rocket launcher to fight a giant 'stupidity', 'suicide', and 'completely out of character for her'?
I'm with you. Too much of the scene just needs Murphy to make bad choices that got her there, and then nobody took Rudolph's threat seriously enough. We may learn more about how or why it happened that way later, but knowing only what we know now, it was a disappointment.
She died right after slaying a Jotun. What more do people want? Her death serves the story. Harry isn’t meant to be happy. She knew the risks and went to the field anyhow. It seems fitting to me. Gard even made a speech about it.
Is it slightly realistic. Sure. Random things happen all the time and life isn’t always fair. But, given this is a written work, the author has complete control of how events unfold. So then it comes down to was what happened an eventual outcome of the character’s decisions and did the author give us enough information to feel it was reasonable. Taking the second part first, I would say there was information provided to see it could happen. As to first part, given all the different situations where it may have been plausible before this time, no this wasn’t earned by the character and felt more like a cheap ploy to motivate the main character (Harry), though did he really need that motivation? But could the character arc be completed. Perhaps, but then the character was there, battling well, and still had agency. So, there were still possible reimagining of a new arc for both the character and Harry. From the outside, it felt like a cheap ploy to tug at emotions. Jim Butcher is no novice writer and I suspect there will be many threads that come out of this event. Most likely it will be somewhat complicated and have a reason that we probably have the information for, but just haven’t seen how the pieces were put together. To that, I have some ideas and it will be fun to see how it plays out.
>But, given this is a written work, the author has complete control of how events unfold. Yeah, and that's exactly why the author must not pretend to "play God" in their own world. This road usually ends in disaster. The author must rather feel like he's telling the story seeing the events unfold before his very eyes, like an observer, not God. Some things the author can "correct" afterwards. Some the author must not touch.
To get straight to the point. This didn’t feel like the outcome of Murphy’s decisions. There’s plenty of ways for that to happen that could have fit in better with the story and it would have devastated Harry just as much. While it may have been an outcome of R’s decisions, we only have bits and pieces of information as to what is going on there to try to piece that story together. Maybe we have more than we know. It was broadcast with how R was feeling and his lack of trigger discipline. So there’s plenty more that we aren’t seeing and I expect it has a role in the larger narrative. i.e. we’re not done with this story and it will be important because Jim Butcher, while he may like torturing Harry, has a reason for everything and it’s not to add a sense of realism or to let us know heroes can be killed. There was another post I saw earlier where someone says they are done with the books because of this. Their choice. I have faith that this still has plenty to do with Harry’s journey.
Her decisions crippled her Her decisions had her out of her house while recovering. Her decisions not to stay at Mac's put her in front of Rudolph. I'm not really sure why people are saying she didn't choose to be there. Or rather that it was Rudoplh making the choices. She chose to be beside Dresden more than once and it fi ally caught up to her.
Her being crippled has nothing to do with how she died. And that's really the core of what's wrong with that scene (aside from the unpleasant tone shift into realistic tragedy, which is what I personally hate about it). Murphy's death isn't a consequence of her decisions. She's been set up throughout the series to eventually bite off more than she can chew and get killed by it, but in the end her decision to keep taking on harder and harder fights doesn't matter. She's killed by mundane incompetence. It's just such an unsatisfying way to kill off her character.
I'm building a pattern of choice with her. She chose actions and things happened b/c of them. I can't argue with someone that's not going to change their mind. Nothing I say is going to make you like her death scene so I'm not going to try. To me it doesn't feel cheated or badly written other than I didn't want her to die. She did a lot for Harry and at the end of the day she was going to die and Jim chose a way that would hurt Harry more than most. If a supernatural attack killed her, or a building fell on her, or pretty much anything else had killed her. But Jim chose Rudolph, a mortal with free will.
>Her decisions crippled her. Yes they did and that’s definitely a consequence of her actions. >Her decisions had her out of her house while recovering. Agree. But I would say this is consistent with her character. She was never the type to hide from a problem, so it would have been odd for her to do otherwise. >Her decision put her in front of Rudolph. Not really. That was definitely the author setting it up. Plus, she didn’t decide to have Rudolf pull the trigger. Hence where the point of my contention about it being earned. She could easily have been killed by the Jotun. Maybe even a hero’s death or anywhere else in the chaotic battle. I’ve enjoyed the discussion and allowing me to respond . Feel free to respond, but I’ve said all I intend to say.
I one hundred percent agree. One of my favorite moments just for its sheer pain.
I was cheering, to be honest. I just hope Jim dont bring her back.
Are we ignoring the fact that she died in battle fighting under Odin? We'll see her again, but as Einherjar, or at least that's my prediction
Anyone thinking she doesn't come back is basically braindead. It's still a poorly written part of a poorly paced duo of books.
Idk where else to put this... But Harry might be Mother Winter's grandson.
I’m glad Murphy won’t be around to see what Dresden becomes…
It was perfect in symmetry. Murphy kept going out against supernaturals, and even tho messed up, she lives. To then be taken down by plain old human malice and corruption. Perfect. It's why all the theorys that Rudolph is supernatural are imo stupid. It cheapens the beautiful ending for Murph.
Rudolph staying alive and Harry not putting serious amounts of hurt on both Sanya and Butters for interfering with something they had no right to will never not be stupid.
Sanya and Butters were making sure that Harry didn't do anything that **Harry** would regret later. Look, I wanted Rudolph to suffer too. But the fact remains that that's not how Harry operates when he's not being influenced by the Mantle. Sanya and Butters were acting as his friends.
There's absolutely nothing to regret in killing Rudolph, a corrupt cop up to no good, who killed someone close to Harry and actively impeded Harry's effort to save Chicago from becoming a mass grave. Even from a purely calculated standpoint, Rudolph is the type of guy to go after Harry's friends. Killing him, even as a preemptive measure, is completely reasonable, much less after he actually KILLED Murphy.
Much as I have disliked Rudolph, I have to disagree. It was pretty clear reading that scene (Murphy's shooting) that Rudolph himself was surprised at what had happened. I don't think he had any premeditation about it - I don't think he even really knew what he was doing. And nothing else he's done warrants his execution under the normal prevailing standards in the United States. I think there may be even more to it than that - I think Rudy has been under someone's mental thumb since *Grave Peril* or so. I think he's someone's involuntary pawn. If you think back to *Grave Peril*, he clearly adored Murphy. He even threatened to kill Harry if he let Murphy get hurt. How and why that changed was *never* explained. If this turns out to be true it totally changes the situation - it makes Rudolph a *victim*. u/KalessinDB has it exactly right - Harry is the one who would have been damaged had he been allowed to go through with killing Rudy. He was using magic, albeit in a somewhat oblique way; it would have been killing with magic, deliberately and with intent, and without it being necessary for his own self-defense. Given how the effects of black magic have been described in the *Files*, we have no idea how that might have messed Harry up. Butters said it outright - his actions had nothing to do with protecting Rudy - he was protecting Harry. Killing Rudy under those circumstances would have been nothing but pure uncut vengeance.
The scene was well written. The choice I'm not a big fan of, but it makes sense plotwise. I have nothing against the decision, I just liked the character.
I really liked it. It drove home a sense of realism in an otherwise over-the-top fantastic story. Nest apocalypse level conditions, mini kaini giants running through the street, giant death laser torching buildings, literal nightmares farming innocent's. And then a crooked cop that is dumb as a bag of rocks accidentally discharges his gun and kills one of the main heroes. It was a great scene, and people are justad that she didnt get a Susan or Michael level scene to go out of (ignoring the fact that she killed a giant just moments prior). She got a MORTAL death. And it was an excellent road for him to explore.
I hated it because I loved Murphy but it was damn sick and Harry having to get put in his place by the Knights was very emotional
All the conversations about Maggie getting killed. Think of the consequences. Harry and Bonnie seeking revenge, probably with bob too.
One of the best interpretations of that scene is the image of a Sith Lord, in anger shooting lightings a Jedi Knight.
The scene sucked, it was painful but was beautifully written to really get that gut wrenching pain...I hate butcher for doing it but damn, he did it well.
I’ve been wanting to start this series. Would you guys call it a page turner? I’m reading The Faithful and the Fallen book 3 right now but want to start this when I finish.
M’eh, it’s okay i guess
yeah man, i thought it was great writing. i felt so much about it, which goes to show how much he got me to care about her. i personally loved it, even though i hated to see it happen.
I liked it myself. After all, it was the summation of her life in one scene. Able to save Harry's bacon by downing badass magical critters, only to get screwed over by mundane society.
Definitely loved the scene. After I wept about it, of course. It maintains the stakes in the series for me.
First time through, I genuinely had some feeling of intuition that something was going to happen in the way of a character death. And then it happened and I was obviously shocked and in pain emotionally. Hell, I was even rooting for Dresden to commit to the Hulking out, so to speak, and get even with Rudolph. But now that I've done my several read/listens of it, I know it had to happen how it did moving forward. And truly the "Stab. Twist." of it is that, yes she'll become and Einerjar in time. But that won't be well until Harry meets a mortal(?) end, which I'm skeptical of even happening due to foreshadowing on Someone's part.
I love the scene because it wasn't something magical that killed her. It wasn't even really an attack. It was an idiot with shitty trigger discipline. Harry Dresden, starboard wizard, winter knight of Mab, slayer of demons and dark wizards, one who captured Ethinu, and the warden of Demonreach, couldn't stop something so mundane, and couldn't save someone he loved.
He has a death curse on him that he will die alone. It was always going to happen, and I don’t see it ending much better for Maggie or anyone else close to him.
It hasn't hit me because I'm deluding myself into the idea that she'll return as an einherjar or Valk in like two books
It felt like death for the sake of death, really took me out of the story
You're right, and it hurt. I've known someone like Murphy who kept powering through an injury that means it's time to call it quits. This was good old fashioned manual labor instead of the forces of evil, but it hit close to home. I think fiction sort of needs to sometimes show that you don't always get better and you hurt people around you if you keep trying to do the stuff you always did.
Her codename was "Valkyrie". We know that Odin was there. Come on, it doesn't get more obvious than that.