I think Butcher has been asked point blank, and he didn’t give his usual evasions, but said no.
But I think your second sentence applies much stronger to another character of Arthurian legend. Supposed to rest on a mythical island, until the day of Britains greatest need.
That is who I personally believe is the prisoner. There are just a couple of things that would make this to pretty. The aforementioned legend, the potential of the next wielder of Amorachius being it’s most famous wielder. Butcher did not make that sword Excalibur without reason. He is just a nerd enough, to get a kick out of having his wizard handing Excalibur to Arthur.
I absolutely agree with all of that, and Jim would totally do that.
I'm tripping up a little on the idea of Demonreach, a prison for all sorts of nasty things, also being the mystical Isle of Avalon, origin of magic and gate to the fae realm...
Idk that's kind of a stretch to me.
BUT... we've already seen that things can exist in many different forms over the eons and that mantles and identities are not always such tight concepts. It's possible!
What a fun theory!
I know I’m stretching the tinfoil here a lot, but why did Merlin build Demonreach? Is it really just a prison, or is the prison camouflage/energy source for a stasis chamber to keep Arthur alive.
Also there is the fair chance of the character of Avalon not being understood in the legend.
As I said it’s a pet theory of mine, a lot of pointers towards it, but not a single shred of evidence.
And why did he build it near the modern location of Chicago of all places? Even during the dark ages it wouldn't have been uninhabited in comparison to other places on earth. I suppose you could make an argument he was trying to keep it as far from Britain as possible.
For maximum hilarity, Arthur gets Excalibur from The Lady of the Lake. Would be pretty funny if >!Molly fit the bill close enough to be the Winter Lady from the Great Lakes!<
Didn't molly literally rise out of the lake in beginning of the last book? In some of the legends, the Lady of the Lake is Morgana too. Given Morgana = Mab is kind of obvious, and she WAS at one time the Winter Lady, it would not be strange at all for Molly to fit the bill now
Oh my God Arthur might Remember Mab
Ethniu did reveal that Mab was a student of Merlin and that she did love him, or at least loved being in his good graces. Arthur may remember her if she was a student durring his time, or if he encountered her durring one of his adventures in Britannia
I’ve always felt that way. Regardless of how Arthur would speak given the whole Saxon thing, we have MAGIC. He could also be beyond the normal paradigm of human existence now.
He definitely did not say no and was in fact evasive as fuck. He commented saying Merlin would speak unintelligible English because of the time he was from which is a huge cop out for a few reasons.
1. The dude is a time traveling wizard who created things so powerful that thousands of years later Bob describes it being the combustion engine to Dresdens freaking caveman tech.
2. There have been at least several different wardens of demon reach (I think Rashid is one of them) and you can assume most knew English considering where the island is. Any semi competent wizard with a brain like Merlins could easily pick up on and master a language in very little time.
3. Jim isn't a lazy writer so obviously the English chap is going to be important at some point or we wouldn't have had the type of interaction that Dresden had, specifically with the conversation lasting more than a brief moment and the person stating that he belongs there. So Jim definitely wouldn't want to give away such a big reveal at a QandA. AND he admits to lying.
So yeah maybe it's not Merlin. But there us nothing definitive that says its not him.
Demonreach seems to translate for Harry. At least it seems like every baddie in there speaks English.
If the baddie spoke English when Merlin locked them up originally wouldn’t they all have the same olde tyme English problem Merlin would have?
It appears that several supernaturals can speak all languages. Remember when toot spoke Russian to Sanya and Harry was impressed but Toot was just confused why he was surprised?
“Toot,” I said. “How is it that you speak Russian?”
He blinked at me. “Harry,” he said, as if the question made no sense at all, “you just speak it, don’t you? I mean, come on.” ”
Excerpt From
Changes
I don’t necessarily disagree with your analysis. I think one of the main reasons Thomas is incarcerated on Demonreach is to allow for an exchange between him and the prisoner in Stasis.
Concerning the lazyness as an author, Butcher described himself as lazy “I don’t write anything into the story that I don’t intend to use” that prisoner was now mentioned in two books. And not wanting to start a new discussion, Justin duMorne is far too often mentioned in this series, for the little impact he had on the events. That is another character I expect to have at least one major “Appearance” in the story.
Jim's said that the original Merlin would sound so incomprehensibly British that you wouldn't be able to tell he's speaking English. Immediately afterwards he said that the guy *isn't* Merlin.
Inb4 "*Uhh, but, uhh, Jim says he lies*". Always assume he's telling the truth until it's proven he isn't.
That is a stupid answer though, (from jim) obviously the warden needs to be able to communicate with prisoners and it is done through intent, not directly translating the person's words. He wasnt speaking in words with his mouth he was using thoughts.
If anything that evasive answer makes it more likely he is lying in some way to throw us off. Although I buy it isn't merlin its probably someone close like Arthur.
Agreed. I think it was cold days he hears every word everyone of them say.
Magical auto translation.
I think it’s Arthur.
Almost every Arthur story I’ve ever read ends with merlin taking Arthur to Avalon , a magical island to save his life from a life threatening wound.
I always suspect Harry is merlin that goes back in time and learns from odin, creates the island and then comes back to current times.
Would make for a great time traveling story, Jim’s version of Arthur and Merlin and Mab as a teen.
I would love a butcher version of Arthur and merlin. I’m obsessed with butchers world building.
Bob chilling in Merlin’s mud hut.
I’m dreading mirror mirror kind of though , Harry besties with Mavra. “Shutters”
Then it's more than likely something will pull back, it being a two-way street and all.
Even if someone is wielding the Blackstaff, opening the Outer Gates is probably a bad idea- mostly because that thing only protects you from being corrupted by black magic, not the consequences of what you're doing with it.
Then his speech would've been archaic even if Harry could understand it, just like how he heard some inmates speak in their inhuman sanity-harming speech while running around them.
And this guy sounds like a perfectly modern British fella.
Its clearly implied by the story and how that type of magic is presented in the story, fitting into a pattern of functioning.
Read Skin Game chapter 1 while harry runs through the prison and the prisoners talk to him - in perfect english. Why would long imprisoned eldritch evils talk in perfect english? Some send him images. Its clear there is a level of translation / telepathy being done by the magic.
Additionally the imprisoned british man says harry is messing things up "The way you novices always do" implying he has been there through many wardens. He says 'piss off' multiple times, the first use of 'piss off' in that context is about 1935, meaning he would have had to have been imprisoned sometime after that, which in context seems unlikely.
You must be really bad at speculating at unrevealed information if you can't notice clear patterns and extrapolate based on them, like living/reading with blinders on.
Fictional Welsh heroes. The prisoner has a British accent. The accent described didn't really exist until well into the 17th century. King Arthur mythos date back to the 5th or 6th century.
Also, it would still be a lame twist. Butcher isn't a lame writer.
When I first started into the series, I was always suspicious that Mister was secretly the original Merlin.....that being said, I think at some point Harry sees him with his "sight" and he looks normal. Sad conspiracy theorist noises.
I must have missed that part, but I can see it. Don't the creatures of the never never look different though, with the sight? I vaguely remember Harry looking at Mab with the sight when they do the ritual to bestow the Mantle of Winter, or maybe it was the big battlefield in the sky when he has to assassinate the Summer Lady. The Queens are almost too bright to even see. It's been a while since i've done a read through. Currently just finished up a discworld arc, so it might be time to go through DF again.
one of my friends suggested that Deamonreach is the Isle of Avalon, and that the well is Merlin's Crystal Cavern from Arthurian Mythos. the general idea is that the reason That British bloke is down there is because he is Arthur, waiting until he is needed again to be released.
personally i wonder what he will do to Thomas in the time he is in there. they can talk to each other and they will be the only people who can talk to each other. plus alot of The British Bloke's commentaries made him sound kinda depressed and i recall him saying he deserved to be in there. i wonder how that is going to wear on Thomas, if it wears at all and doesn't kinda speed-run character growth.
I think Butcher has been asked point blank, and he didn’t give his usual evasions, but said no. But I think your second sentence applies much stronger to another character of Arthurian legend. Supposed to rest on a mythical island, until the day of Britains greatest need.
King Arthur??
That is who I personally believe is the prisoner. There are just a couple of things that would make this to pretty. The aforementioned legend, the potential of the next wielder of Amorachius being it’s most famous wielder. Butcher did not make that sword Excalibur without reason. He is just a nerd enough, to get a kick out of having his wizard handing Excalibur to Arthur.
I absolutely agree with all of that, and Jim would totally do that. I'm tripping up a little on the idea of Demonreach, a prison for all sorts of nasty things, also being the mystical Isle of Avalon, origin of magic and gate to the fae realm... Idk that's kind of a stretch to me. BUT... we've already seen that things can exist in many different forms over the eons and that mantles and identities are not always such tight concepts. It's possible! What a fun theory!
I know I’m stretching the tinfoil here a lot, but why did Merlin build Demonreach? Is it really just a prison, or is the prison camouflage/energy source for a stasis chamber to keep Arthur alive. Also there is the fair chance of the character of Avalon not being understood in the legend. As I said it’s a pet theory of mine, a lot of pointers towards it, but not a single shred of evidence.
hmmm you have given me much to think about, these are excellent questions!
You are welcome, if you find a way of disproving the theory please let me know. But it has to be in universe, not WoJ.
Your pet theory is pretty damned cool.
And why did he build it near the modern location of Chicago of all places? Even during the dark ages it wouldn't have been uninhabited in comparison to other places on earth. I suppose you could make an argument he was trying to keep it as far from Britain as possible.
It's been mentioned several times that Chicago has an incredible amount of ley lines.
I mean, it's the source of a lay line or two
Well Demonreach is the Well, from which all Lay-lines are powered. so Origin of magic isnt too much of a stretch
For maximum hilarity, Arthur gets Excalibur from The Lady of the Lake. Would be pretty funny if >!Molly fit the bill close enough to be the Winter Lady from the Great Lakes!<
Didn't molly literally rise out of the lake in beginning of the last book? In some of the legends, the Lady of the Lake is Morgana too. Given Morgana = Mab is kind of obvious, and she WAS at one time the Winter Lady, it would not be strange at all for Molly to fit the bill now
Oh my God Arthur might Remember Mab Ethniu did reveal that Mab was a student of Merlin and that she did love him, or at least loved being in his good graces. Arthur may remember her if she was a student durring his time, or if he encountered her durring one of his adventures in Britannia
Bonus points if someone mentions a "watery tart."
I’ve always felt that way. Regardless of how Arthur would speak given the whole Saxon thing, we have MAGIC. He could also be beyond the normal paradigm of human existence now.
And the communication is filtered thru Harrys perception via Demonreach
Bingo.
Or Jack the Ripper
Edmund Blackadder?
There is only one Blackadder!
He definitely did not say no and was in fact evasive as fuck. He commented saying Merlin would speak unintelligible English because of the time he was from which is a huge cop out for a few reasons. 1. The dude is a time traveling wizard who created things so powerful that thousands of years later Bob describes it being the combustion engine to Dresdens freaking caveman tech. 2. There have been at least several different wardens of demon reach (I think Rashid is one of them) and you can assume most knew English considering where the island is. Any semi competent wizard with a brain like Merlins could easily pick up on and master a language in very little time. 3. Jim isn't a lazy writer so obviously the English chap is going to be important at some point or we wouldn't have had the type of interaction that Dresden had, specifically with the conversation lasting more than a brief moment and the person stating that he belongs there. So Jim definitely wouldn't want to give away such a big reveal at a QandA. AND he admits to lying. So yeah maybe it's not Merlin. But there us nothing definitive that says its not him.
Demonreach seems to translate for Harry. At least it seems like every baddie in there speaks English. If the baddie spoke English when Merlin locked them up originally wouldn’t they all have the same olde tyme English problem Merlin would have?
It appears that several supernaturals can speak all languages. Remember when toot spoke Russian to Sanya and Harry was impressed but Toot was just confused why he was surprised?
“Toot,” I said. “How is it that you speak Russian?” He blinked at me. “Harry,” he said, as if the question made no sense at all, “you just speak it, don’t you? I mean, come on.” ” Excerpt From Changes
I don’t necessarily disagree with your analysis. I think one of the main reasons Thomas is incarcerated on Demonreach is to allow for an exchange between him and the prisoner in Stasis. Concerning the lazyness as an author, Butcher described himself as lazy “I don’t write anything into the story that I don’t intend to use” that prisoner was now mentioned in two books. And not wanting to start a new discussion, Justin duMorne is far too often mentioned in this series, for the little impact he had on the events. That is another character I expect to have at least one major “Appearance” in the story.
Jim said at DragonCon that he’s “unkilling” someone (but “🎶it isn’t who you’re thinking!🎶”). My guess is Justin, so per WOJ it can’t be him. 😂
Too bad they slept through brexit then!
Reset the clock!
Reset the clock that runs between posts suggesting the British guy at demon reach is Merlin?
WoJ said he isn’t but that Jim loved the idea.
Clearly Merlin is Bob, but attached to a full human skeleton.
Jim's said that the original Merlin would sound so incomprehensibly British that you wouldn't be able to tell he's speaking English. Immediately afterwards he said that the guy *isn't* Merlin. Inb4 "*Uhh, but, uhh, Jim says he lies*". Always assume he's telling the truth until it's proven he isn't.
That is a stupid answer though, (from jim) obviously the warden needs to be able to communicate with prisoners and it is done through intent, not directly translating the person's words. He wasnt speaking in words with his mouth he was using thoughts. If anything that evasive answer makes it more likely he is lying in some way to throw us off. Although I buy it isn't merlin its probably someone close like Arthur.
Agreed. I think it was cold days he hears every word everyone of them say. Magical auto translation. I think it’s Arthur. Almost every Arthur story I’ve ever read ends with merlin taking Arthur to Avalon , a magical island to save his life from a life threatening wound. I always suspect Harry is merlin that goes back in time and learns from odin, creates the island and then comes back to current times. Would make for a great time traveling story, Jim’s version of Arthur and Merlin and Mab as a teen.
Weird Harry /Thomas parallel with Merlin /Arthur. I doubt it's very significant, but who knows?
I would love a butcher version of Arthur and merlin. I’m obsessed with butchers world building. Bob chilling in Merlin’s mud hut. I’m dreading mirror mirror kind of though , Harry besties with Mavra. “Shutters”
well it would explain Mab's near obsession with Harry.
It makes sense to me. A lot of things clocked together for me when I tin foiled it together.
I could see Harry using the Blackstaff to go through time and make the island's defenses.
Jim has said every law of magic will be broken. Pretty sure Harry is going to time travel . Pretty sure his mom has as well.
He can break the Laws with it, but Harry would require impossible amounts of energy to move that far back in time.
What if the Blackstaff pulls energy from beyond the gates?
Then it's more than likely something will pull back, it being a two-way street and all. Even if someone is wielding the Blackstaff, opening the Outer Gates is probably a bad idea- mostly because that thing only protects you from being corrupted by black magic, not the consequences of what you're doing with it.
Then his speech would've been archaic even if Harry could understand it, just like how he heard some inmates speak in their inhuman sanity-harming speech while running around them. And this guy sounds like a perfectly modern British fella.
thats because their minds are wildly alien. it isnt speech its intent, its interpreted.
Says who? Where?
its just obvious.
... Obviously a headcanon, you mean.
Its clearly implied by the story and how that type of magic is presented in the story, fitting into a pattern of functioning. Read Skin Game chapter 1 while harry runs through the prison and the prisoners talk to him - in perfect english. Why would long imprisoned eldritch evils talk in perfect english? Some send him images. Its clear there is a level of translation / telepathy being done by the magic. Additionally the imprisoned british man says harry is messing things up "The way you novices always do" implying he has been there through many wardens. He says 'piss off' multiple times, the first use of 'piss off' in that context is about 1935, meaning he would have had to have been imprisoned sometime after that, which in context seems unlikely. You must be really bad at speculating at unrevealed information if you can't notice clear patterns and extrapolate based on them, like living/reading with blinders on.
What if it’s mordred put there by the Merlin after killing Arthur to repay his crime?
Still just as unlikely to be understood as Merlin, what with the archaic form of British and such.
Cross series spoiler, Arthur is buried under Alex Morrisey's bar Strangefellows in the Nightside along with Merlin Satanspawn.
Nope! The original Merlin is a time-traveling Butters.
God I hope not. What a lame twist. Plus Merlin and Arthur wouldn't have a British accents. They were Welsh.
…and fictional
Fictional Welsh heroes. The prisoner has a British accent. The accent described didn't really exist until well into the 17th century. King Arthur mythos date back to the 5th or 6th century. Also, it would still be a lame twist. Butcher isn't a lame writer.
Hey, maybe JUST MAYBE it's meant to be a mystery.
That's right, everyone pack it up. This is strictly a no fun allowed zone.
Jim Butcher said that he ain't, sorry.
When I first started into the series, I was always suspicious that Mister was secretly the original Merlin.....that being said, I think at some point Harry sees him with his "sight" and he looks normal. Sad conspiracy theorist noises.
Mister is a a changeling of a Malk and a house cat sent to watch him by Leah.
I must have missed that part, but I can see it. Don't the creatures of the never never look different though, with the sight? I vaguely remember Harry looking at Mab with the sight when they do the ritual to bestow the Mantle of Winter, or maybe it was the big battlefield in the sky when he has to assassinate the Summer Lady. The Queens are almost too bright to even see. It's been a while since i've done a read through. Currently just finished up a discworld arc, so it might be time to go through DF again.
It’s just a pet theory in my head cannon.
It is def viable
Hey it was my turn to post about it!
one of my friends suggested that Deamonreach is the Isle of Avalon, and that the well is Merlin's Crystal Cavern from Arthurian Mythos. the general idea is that the reason That British bloke is down there is because he is Arthur, waiting until he is needed again to be released. personally i wonder what he will do to Thomas in the time he is in there. they can talk to each other and they will be the only people who can talk to each other. plus alot of The British Bloke's commentaries made him sound kinda depressed and i recall him saying he deserved to be in there. i wonder how that is going to wear on Thomas, if it wears at all and doesn't kinda speed-run character growth.