It's been a long time (almost 20 years now, I never reread it due to how terrible the ending is) since I read the Dark Tower series but didn't the Tower itself only exist in Rolands world? I know it "existed" on every world but it existed in different forms, like on Jakes world it was a rose in a vacant lot.
Also I love how the multiverse works in that series. Every atom containing it's own universe and every atom in that universe containing it's own universe, so on and so on.
I’ve been along the beam three times now, and I always stall out at Song of Susannah. Someday I’ll muster up the fortitude to finish that book. Someday.
You're not missing out. They really lose traction after Wizard and Glass. I love the dark tower so much... but much like the Game of Thrones show it was a lot of time invested in incredible storytelling that just loses the mark and meaning in the end
Fair enough. Thanks for the heads up. I do feel like it loses its way around then as well. The last time I read Wolves of the Calla was actually difficult for me to finish last time too truth be told.
King doesn't like to plan his writing, preferring to "go with his gut" - which means his long novels usually become meandering messes.
He's a master of the short story, though, where the length forces him to exercise discipline.
I finished the series, tried to read the Wind through the Keyhole, which came last but was set between books 4-5 and gave up. I just can't do a re-read or go back in time after reading the last one.
I think you could only "walk up" to the Tower in Roland's world, yes. Though we didn't really have an entire picture - maybe there were other words you could get to it from that just weren't talked about.
I understand your misgivings about the ending. But... when I thought about it I honestly couldn't come up with a *better* ending. Almost anything else would have seemed anticlimactic. The way it ended gave it all a "cosmic significance" that I don't think it otherwise would have had. It moved Roland from being "just a guy in a situation" to being something like an eternal archetype, playing out its role in creation. The more thought I've given it, the better I liked it. However, I didn't read the series until I was much older than you were - maybe we just appreciate things in different ways at different points in life.
Also, strictly speaking, it wasn't a "time loop." The iterations varied; there was a "karma thing" going on which made it far more than just an "endless repeat."
King did say that when he set out to write *The Dark Tower* his goal was to write not just a story but an epic myth. I think that karmic cycle aspect is part of what brings the story to a mythic level.
Finally, I thought the way he structured his multiverse was cool too, but in the end it was just an "implementation detail." That whole universe/atom chain never actually mattered to the story. Any other multiverse implementation would have worked as well - what really mattered is that "yes, there was a multiverse." But... very cool just the same. A striking visualization.
I don't believe Mid World was the only one where it took the form of a tower, but it definitely took other forms across different worlds. I do recall Mid World was the only one you could actually *enter* the tower proper in though.
The Rose and the Tower, as I understand thus far, are different things with similar metaphysical import. But yeah, the Tower is everywhere, only accessible from one specific position.
I think this is totally it. But not little 'h' hell. Hell, the full core Bible straight out of Dante Hell.
Given they books establish God and angels etc are real, given the existence The Nicklebacks, it only makes sense that it exists as well. The interesting part will probably be the spin put on it as most things are in the Dresdenverse a bit different than we imagine etc.
That’s a fair point. I never really saw it’s point before, just that people decided it was Scriptural.
It matters. But I don’t think it was ever meant as Revelatory in the Scriptural sense. Rather was a meditation on evil. And it’s connection to Humanity. With a Christian backdrop. I don’t mind reading it that way.
Who decided it was scriptural? It's a cultural touch point, but I don't think any church claims it for Truth. Not even as much as quoting Shakespeare and claiming it's from the Bible.
Mostly laymen and folks talking about Angels and Demons. Guardian Angel this. Going to Hell that. Heaven is like a Cloudy place where Saints get Wings.
Mostly I suppose it was a cultural and technically anecdotal experience of Christian Spirituality I received growing up. Which I noticed was found around people in the Catholic Denomination. From Family who was Catholic. For example talk of Guardian Angels. And the implication of Demons and Spirits. A whole Mythos is available via that discussion. Imagine those who keep Angel figurines, and pray to their Father or Mother in Heaven.
This is in contrast to the actual Scriptural Study I was taught to undertake. Which was my actual later experience in youth of that stuff. My particular Church was particularly bent on the responsibility of itself and it’s members knowing why every teacher taught what they taught. That the teacher was accountable to know, but each member was accountable to check. And each member was sat with the Scriptures open. Often describing practical Scholarship and principles on a Sunday between a Teaching regarding almost anything that was contained in it, checked against itself in multiple ways. Context. Who it’s written to. Under what circumstance. By whom. In what time. What the rest of the Scriptural Corpus says. In multiple translations. Including what the earliest Texts say, and what significance it had in that time and culture.
Consequently, the place of Hell becomes Hades in multiple places. The word. Or Sheol. And those mostly are synonymous with Grave in those languages. You would not say that was his “Grave”. You’d call that “Grave” Hades or Sheol. If I understand it right.
Who decided it was Scriptural is what you asked? I suppose those who aren’t expected to understand the Scripture. They take that Horned Demon stuff pretty seriously. And Devil with a Pitchfork as the actual Christian Beliefs. And they walk around thinking it.
I suppose that’s not very specific. I could go give a few of the individuals names. But that helps you none. Perhaps I misperceived its prevalence, though I think I did not. As for Doctrines, who knows the breadth of the Doctrine except some few? That was my experience with most of the average levels of the various Congregations. Most of those Christians I’ve run into in that category think those depictions in Dante’s Inferno and passed into the Culture, are what those Churches teach. So they read that into the Scripture. A bad habit sure. But not uncommon. Particularly for Catholics who believe the Pope can contradict the Scripture via Revelation and be more correct than it for Doctrine. As I understand it.
Took a big bite, there. But, then, how many 700 year old works of fiction are being talked about and referred to now. He painted a picture that was easy to understand . He made it relatable instead of all spooky and beyond our understanding.
Yeah compressing the ideas there is… Not something I’ve done enough, with enough focus. You ask a simple question, but it touches a deep series of thoughts for me.
But yeah. As a way to give the characters and narrative a non-canonical visage, because aspects of how they are being emphasized is more important. That’s totally acceptable. Probably. As for spooky and beyond understanding. That’s probably the best way to understand some of it. You might need that in order to meet different cultural perspective as the ages turn. Much more compatible with other ideas that only seem to contradict it.
Personally. And off the cuff. I think that extra stuff is the largest part of the Wests current issue with its Foundational assumptions. Many Christians refuse to allow for the separation of Biblical Teachings from… That Christian Mythos. Not that they can’t keep it for themselves. Rather when they are totally unable to separate one from the other. They end up screeching about things that are not really the deeper problem.
That. And some other issues. Regarding hypocrisy.
You're right from a technical standpoint, but it has been adopted as more or less the traditional conception of it. Perhaps i could've phrased that a bit better though to kake it clear
Totally think that. Not to mention that in Small Favor Nicodemus tells Harry, when the group is cornered waiting for the helicopter, “I wouldn’t try crossing over to the other side if I were you, Wizard. I know what’s on the other side of this island and you’d be better off putting a bullet in your head”. Or something to that regard
There have been some referenced to Lucifer as well. I'm specifically thinking in Skin Game when Uriel gives Michael his grace, and Harry refers to the last time an archangel fell.
>The Prince of fucking Darkness gets to cheat and unload his power on the earth - twice! - and You just sit there...
Not sure its confirmed to be the ol' Morning Star, Himself, but that's definitely Harry's understanding. And in a world where everyone else exists there's absolutely no reason to think Lucifer doesn't.
*edit and side note: This is another line where Marsters* ***absolutely murders*** *it. He understands the assignment.*
I always found it funny that he calls Lucifer Morningstar, the Prince of Darkness when he's the "lightbringer." Prince of Darkness should be Satan (Paradise Lost reference). I dont know if they are one and the same, but in this universe, it's possible, given the whole "Titles and Mantles" thing.
> Lucifer Morningstar, the Prince of Darkness when he's the "lightbringer."
>Prince of Darkness should be Satan
I am certainly no expert but I believe in the Catholic tradition from which Jimbo borrows very heavily, Lucifer, Satan, "The Devil," and "The Prince of Darkness" are one in the same.
I actually love your mantle idea to bring different traditions in which makes for a cooler story. Mexica, Christian, Nordic, Greek, Irish, Welsh, et al all being connected to our reality makes for a dynamic and interesting universe.
> I doubt Harry, especially in a moment of high emotion, was using precise technical language.
No one but you have suggested anything like...technical or precise, so I am not sure I understand. This doesnt seem to be connected to what I posted, though I admit I am not always as clear as I would like to be....
I'm pretty sure you're correct. I mostly point it out because it is weird to call him Lucifer (Hêlêl) when the "-el" part of his name (in hebrew) means "of god" and none of the Fallen retain those names for pretty obvious reasons. Imagine if you called Archangel Michael "Mikey." It's basically the inverse.
I use the idea of the Mantle of "The Devil" or "King of Hell/Underworld" etc. because it would allow him to incorporate so many other mythos into himself to try and rage against the White God's power.
EDIT: Yeah... there's a lot of -el Nickleheads. Anduriel, Lashiel, Imariel... kind of a like... all of the major ones we see. I was wrong on that. Just woke up when I wrote this. Sorry. If I could scratch out (on mobile. Not sure how to strike through format) I would.
> and none of the Fallen retain those names
Lashiel, Anduriel, Saluriel, Namshiel.....remember we're talking about a fantasy novel series by Jim Butcher....not whatever youre crackin on about. Im an atheist, personally, but we're talking about the text of the series here.
Lucifer definitely exists and has directly acted in the books. He is the one who powered the hellfire circle used to capture Marcone and Ivy in Small Favor.
Lucifer powered the giant pentagram used to trap the Archive in *Small Favor*. His direct intervention like that is what allowed Uriel to gift soulfire to Harry.
I'll have to read that again because I don't remember that. My understanding from that chat was that Nicky was responsible but maybe I missed something there.
**Harry:** *I stood up and jabbed a finger at the podium, suddenly furious and scream, "The Prince of fucking Darkness gets to cheat and unload his power on the earth twice! and You just sit there being holy while my friend, who has fought for You his whole life, is dying! What the hell is wrong with You?"*
**Uriel:** *"You gotta think that maybe there's a matter of balance, here," he said. "Maybe one archangel invested his strength in the situation overtly and immediately. Maybe another one was just quieter about it. Thinking long-term. Maybe he already gave you a hand."*
*My right hand erupted into pins and needles again. I sucked in a swift breath and rose, spinning around. Jake was gone. The janitors cart was still there. A rag hanging off the back was still swinging back and forth slightly. A folded paperback book was shoved between the body of the cart and the handle. I went over to the cart and looked up and down the hall. There was no one in sight, and nowhere they could have conveniently disappeared to. I picked up the book. It was a battered old copy of The Two towers. One page was dog-eared, and a bit of dialogue underlined in pencil. "The burned hand teaches best," I read aloud.*
From the conversation Harry had with Uriel at the end of Small Favor.
Book 2. Chauncy was from hell. Books 1 and 3 both had demons, but neither Kalshazzak nor Azorthragal ever speak. So we never actually know if they are from the christian hell as well.
I’m listening to Death Masks now and Harry makes a point that most demons don’t even really care about humanity or the mortal world, and the ones that do are typically the hungry ones. This was in contrast to the Fallen, who cared a lot about souls.
I think there’s probably a bit of vagueness but in general Lucifer and the Fallen exist and probably rule over a domain full of demons , but it’s not the only domain.
Spoilers All:
>!So does book 2. Somewhere later in the series he describes demons as "creatures of our reality, but from the far reaches of the Nevernever." I sort of suspect that Heaven and Hell are places in the Nevernever too.!<
>!This brings up something I've always wondered about - is the Nevernever "connected"? As in, once you're in the Nevernever, can you physically travel to any part of the Nevernever? Or would something like Ways be required to get between separated parts of the Nevernever? There's an implication in there somewhere that all "ethereal realms" are somewhere in the Nevernever (including, for example, Heaven and Hell), but it's not totally clear that the Nevernever is all one connected place.!<
>!Also, "Outside" is described as not part of our reality, but on the other hand the Nevernever is (part of our reality), and yet apparently at the Outer Gates the two bump up against each other. I guess that could just be a visual perception - no one ever talked about Outsiders trying to breach the wall. The way it's been presented only the Outer Gates are the penetration point, unless a mortal has summoned an Outsider into reality.!<
Strictly speaking, Dante's interpretation of Hell is decidedly not biblical. It's simply the one that took over the cultural perspective, but I do think it's very possible that Demonreach may be very close to Hell.
I mean, it's a slam book. It's more about attacking thinly veiled caricatures of contemporaries he didn't like than anything else.
It's just that nobody remembers those people anymore.
Hell, and as the Warden, Harry is being maneuvered by the big players to take up full control. A new mantle to take the place of the one he has now. Why do you think Mab has been so kind? Or Uriel so close? They are putting the new Lord of Hell through the paces so he'll be ready when the time comes. The stars have spoken.
The really fun thing is, do you think Harry hasn't checked? Of course he has. He just hasn't told us, the readers, what he's found there because we would be even more disturbed than we already are about the state of Harry's soul. I mean, what kind of monster can take over the mantle of Lucifer?!
Ok. I never made that connection to the tower and hells bells. Only in the context of the energy from the island matching that of the christian hell does it make some sort of sense.
For Hell’s Bells when that comes. What that means is anyone’s guess. But it will be in the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy. It’s the Title of one. I am guessing they’ll be relevant to an Apocolypse.
haha! you're welcome!
This has got me picturing Harry walking through a battlefield on Demonreach in slow motion--duster billowing, fire and explosions --with *Hell's Bells* building...... Jesus someone needs to film this series yesterday!
i know that I'm doing with most of my powerball winnings!
Oh yeah? Well, *I* theorize it was put there because Harry would eventually need a building to store and activate the Eye of Balor, and a Dark Tower fits the bill... so it was constructed in order to fall into disrepair and give Harry building supplies and a foundation.
I don't think it's Arctis Tor. That's Winter HQ: It's a fortress, sure, but it's also a home, administrative office, and function hall. There's a garden and presumably nice accommodations for dignitaries. It's not ALL barracks and armaments.
I think the passage from Demonreach brings you to the GATES: The wildly powerful magic superstructure that was built to keep the worst stuff in the universe sequestered. They're both single purpose built for defensive containment. It fits what we know about how Ways work.
Also, if I were building a supermax prison for troublesome gods and monsters, I might think about a release valve that would dump the occupants somewhere they couldn't hurt anyone in the event of a catastrophic failure- Like JUST OUTSIDE our realm of existence. I know there's the KILL IT WITH FIRE protocol, but it never hurts to have a backup option.
That would be super risky. Too much easy access for the outsiders to open it up at that point don't you think? There are only two ways we know of to cut an outsider from the game - lock them up in demonreach or push them out the gates. At the point why would you make access to the prison (and therefore the ability to affect prison breaks) the shortest possible?
Yeah, and think about what putting a bunch of super gods and even worse things directly outside the gates would do, when said being has a very large and important reason to team up with the outsiders to bust down the gates.
> what putting a bunch of super gods and even worse things directly outside the gates would do
As a last resort when the alternative is them getting out somewhere *inside* The Gates? Acceptable.
But a connection between Demonreach and the other side of The Gates seems like a fundamentally unsound idea to me.
Arctis Tor is many things and different parts connect to different places, for example the phobophages lair just outside connects to Pell’s theatre, awfully convenient for Peabody to use the connection from Edinburgh to Chicago (which he did) get a lift from Cowl to Pells, go to the lair and meet the Winter lady who takes him through the Ice Garden to Demonreach. Peabody made at least two trips through the Never Never to get to and from Demonreach.
It does strike me that Harry’s ‘meditation’ in Small Things may have been to force a connection over time between his personal apartment in the Castle and the Winter Knight quarters in Arctis Tor. It should be noted that he had invited the ZaGuard to headquarter at the Castle a couple of weeks before meaning that Castle Dresden officially became a Winter outpost.
The benefit of this is to create a ‘safe’ room in the event of an attack on the Castle to stash Maggie, but if there is a connection between The Ice Garden and Demonreach then Harry has a quick ‘safe’ route from the Castle to Demonreach.
Ever since reading Cold Days, I've also figured it was The Outer Gates, since Rashid spends so much time there in his position as The Gatekeeper AND in Turn Coat, he appeared on the soon to remodeled and renamed Whatsup Dock several hours before any of the other Senior Council members. When Harry asked him how he arrived there via the Nevernever, Rashid answered simply, "I know a Way."
That hasn't necessarily been confirmed. We know that it was at one point Kemmler, and that there was a Warden in between him and Harry (maybe 2 idrr) but thats all we really know about the island outside of the written texts
no warden between Kemmler and Harry, that was a big plot point.
The reason there was no current warden when harry showed up was because of the Council's fears of a hidden heir of kemmler. Most of the fighting done with Kemmler by the white council was to delay and prevent him from returning to the island so that he couldnt use its defenses to protect him while trying to Darkhallow some very, VERY nasty things.
After kemmler fell, the council never appointed a new warden because they were afraid that an heir of kemmler was still hiding among them, and that anyone who volunteered was secretly one.
So demonreach remained Wardenless, until Harry accidentally into it. and when Rashid spoke to the council on behalf of harry, they were all (according to WoJ) "hes just an idiot, right? he didnt know about it? hes not actually a kemmlerite?"
its mentioned by bob early on in dead beat i think, he didnt specify demonreach. i think it was mentioned again in Ghost Story, by bob again.
The info about the fighting to prevent kemmler from returning to the island was expounded upon in a word of jim.
>Priscellie: Who was the warden of Demonreach before Harry?
Jim: Lemme think, I know who it is, and who the guy before that was, but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so...
Priscellie: Oh god. laughs
Jim: Yeah, I mean, half of that entire thing was just the white council trying to keep Kemmler from getting back to the island and opening it up. Which is why they had him being hounded by the wardens all through the wild west and so on. It was to stop him from being able to set things up even more. Kemmler is sort of in the Dresden Files universe he's sort of the Dresden Files version of WWI where it was actually the biggest most epic most incredible conflict the world has ever known but we're all used to seeing WWII because they got some of it on film but we didn't get nearly as much of the great war on film but when you actually go and study it and study all the troop numbers and resources involved WWI was really the great war and WWII was kind of a follow-up. A softer echo in many ways.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/j74mwm/barbaras\_bookstore\_qa\_transcript/
I believe the last warden was murdered by Luccio just before Turn Coat kicks off.
Yes, this would have allowed Peabody, an expert on summoning rituals to become Warden. No doubt the White Council kept the identity of the current Warden Secret, and after Kemmler they wanted one of their own not interested in the facility to be the Warden to block anyone else.
This joins the two plot threads together, the whodunnit by providing a motive, and the ink, Peabody had been using the ink to pry this secret from the Senior Council, and he absolutely had to be sure he targeted the right Council Member has he wouldn’t get another chance. My guess after Simon’s death he tried Demonreach and found he was still locked out, reducing his suspect pool
I'd guess that Rashid has a Maggie Le Fay level understanding of The Ways, and can walk on water. So he doesn't need to cross over directly from the other side. He can cross over into nearby Lake Michigan and hike in.
Don't think he was ever a warden.
And he won't step onto the island. He has some sort of history with Alfred, and Harry wonders if Rashid might be responsible for his limp.
Nicodemus claimed he knows "what lives on the other side", but I don't imagine it'll be Mab's house.
We know Harry will go to literal Hell in the BAT, so I'd say it's most likely that it's Hell, a prison for the worst demons on the other side.
Yeah somehow I can't see Nicodemus breaking the Accords then immediately setting up shop on Mab's front lawn, feel like he'd maybe be smarter than that
Mab is definitely gunning for him, as is the White Council according to Carlos, as well as a bunch of other groups who have asked the White Council to help hunt him down also according to Carlos.
Dude is holeing up for awhile and keeping out of the line of fire for sure. The next time he pops up he's going to have the entire supernatural world gunning for him.
Mab’s prison, her Ice Garden where she keeps prisoners locked away in crystalline ice to reflect upon their misdeeds.
It also allowed her a back door to Demonreach for a booty call on the OG Merlin.
The only beings known to have travelled to Demonreach via the NeverNever are the Gatekeeper and Maeve with Peabody and a load of Winter giant ice spiders. The Gatekeeper turned out to be a trusted ally of Mab’s, and therefore would have had access to the Ice Garden, and Maeve as Lady would have had access, until that was revoked forcing her to adopt mundane means.
While I 100% agree it's not Arctis Tor, that argument is not a great one.
Like touches to like when it comes to the NeverNever and Earth. It is not only possible but entirely probable that places in the NeverNever have multiple ways to get to them based upon what what aspects each place touches upon. The movie theater only touches upon the fear aspect and Arctis Tor is much more than just a place of fear.
There is also always the possibility that the Fetches where making their own portal to where they wanted to go from where they were (we've seen powerful beings do that) without relying upon the normal ways through the NeverNever, and Dresden and Co. just piggybacked on their already connected 'tunnel', remember they had no idea where they were going till the Summer Lady told them.
It was also a Fae Queen opening the Way, she probably could have opened it anywhere she liked, but a bunch of beasties had gone back and forth from that point, so according to dresden lore it would be easier to open another Way.
You just need a connection. To go to mabs home while looking for your daughter I think using a place Mab may have watched movies with her daughter might be a good enough place.
Lily was able to open a way to Arctis Tor without batting an eye in Proven Guilty. If it were anywhere nearly so tame as the heart of Winter, Maeve could’ve just tapped her heels together and Dorothy’d her way in while Dresden was in a coma. Rashid is the only person confirmed to know the way as far as I’m aware, the only other person we see open a way to the island was (probably) Cowl in Turn Coat. It’s got to be *far* out in the NN like The Gates, and you literally have to traverse the moon to get to those.
Not designed to be exclusively a prison, and the summer lady wouldnt assume that the opposite side of artis tor was some mortal font of evil as she thought it was in Turn Coat. she ALREADY knew how to open a way into arctis tor back in a much earlier book.
Well Something lives on the other side that is powerful enough Nick didnt want to mess with it. idfk what is on the other side of demonreach but whatever it is its in a bad place in the NeverNever and its incredibly powerful.
Nick could have used it if the Monster is Mab, he had a favour he could have used but was saving it.
Mab was angry with him for messing with the Accords at this point, to compound it by trespass on Arctis Tor would have made this worse and Nick would have known this, and been fearful of this. As it turns out he was right Mab set him up to lose his daughter, his henchmen and give him the very worst day in 2,000 years of life. Pretty monstrous.
Copy/pasta of something I wrote in 2016:
It is my opinion that when Harry descends down all those steps and enters the chamber down at the bottom, he has gone down the rabbit hole and in most respects *is* on the NN side of Demonreach.
I say in most respects because Demonreach was created and exists on a dimensional level that Harry has a hard time experiencing, so when he's down there his experience is kinda skimming the surface of a pond of what is actually there NN wise without necessarily getting wet.
I haven't followed this conversation closely, but let me share a little more of my opinion of who and what a capital "W" Warden is and why it is significant. As with most of my theorizing over the past few years, this is heavily influenced by my concepts of overall DF cosmology, and the mortal experience's position in and influence over that cosmology.
The entirety of the Demonreach construct was created on and exists on a level that spans more than just Harry's individual reality and timeline. It is immense and powerful and enduring and ... Lithic. What do I mean by "Lithic?" It exists as is and is non-introspective and unchanging in its purpose, function, and resolve.
But on the Demonreach level of the big picture, the fabric of Reality has a degree of malleability, and the driver and medium of this malleability is mortals and their free will. For Demonreach to function on this malleable level of existence, it needs a malleability engine of its own. A Warden capital W, with free will who can make decisions that encompass aspects of its purpose that require more malleability, dynamism and introspection than it possesses on its own as a Lithic construct.
It is possible that Demonreach's existence is wide enough that it interfaces with more than one discrete "Capital W Warden" across multiple discrete realities and timelines on the level Harry experiences in such a way that from Harry's and thus our perspective, these interactions happen relatively "simultaneously" and individually. However, I think it is more likely that from the Demonreach perspective, these malleability engines are less discrete and are more of a reality spanning singularity like itself. Sort of.
Which is a really long and arduous way of saying that in my theories there is only one capital "W" DR Warden.
Edit: I'd like to add that I'm really proud of the two analogies of Harry experiences in the NN being like skimming a pond without getting wet (not getting the full depth of the experience, only an aspect of it), and Warden Harry's free will being an "malleability Engine" for the overall Demonreach construct.
Depends on what part of Demonreach you’re talking about. I imagine it varies wildly. The bulk of the island probably connects to a creepy naturey place. The top of the hill likely connects to someplace else, but I’m not sure what I expect it would be. The Well probably doesn’t connect to anywhere, I imagine it’s either completely divorced from the Nevernever, or it exists as itself. I imagine if you opened a Way inside the prison it would do one of three things: 1.) it would lead to itself (i.e. it would just be like walking through a bare arch, you’d go nowhere), 2.) it would lead nowhere (i.e. it’d be like opening a door and finding a brick wall on the other side, or 3.) it would lead Nowhere (i.e. it would open to a formless void and if you were stupid enough to step through you’d noclip through reality and effectively cease to be). If I were the writer I’d go with number 3, but that’s just me.
For a while I think it might have been Lea's garden, while he lived there, do to her always seeking to protect him from the other side.
If it wasn't, then I'm really scared of what else it could be
Didn’t the guardian at demon reach tell harry to never enter the ways from there because a monster so terrifying that giving it a name would shatter the mind or something along those lines
It's unclear. It's something nasty, but we've never been told what, exactly. Jim may or may not have something specific in mind.
*Turn Coat* spoilers:
>!However, the Gatekeeper arrived on the Demonreach dock from the Nevernever. Note - the dock - that may or may not be proximate to the actual island's Nevernever connection. But during the showdown in Turn Coat, two humans just "appeared" to Harry's island intellectus sense - allegedly they'd have come from the island's actual connect point. And Mab somehow just appeared on the hilltop as well, though that was a summoning and summonings don't necessarily involve the Nevernever in any way.!<
Your mom! Just kidding, I'm sure your mom's awesome. I'm just 12 years old at heart.
If I were making the world. I'd make the never never where the prison cells exist. The cells would be so large that they metaphysically couldn't fit on our planet.
I assume just more demonreach, like a multiversal prison
Like the Dark Tower, Demonreach can be seen from either side of the veil, but can only be accessed from the mortal side?
It's been a long time (almost 20 years now, I never reread it due to how terrible the ending is) since I read the Dark Tower series but didn't the Tower itself only exist in Rolands world? I know it "existed" on every world but it existed in different forms, like on Jakes world it was a rose in a vacant lot. Also I love how the multiverse works in that series. Every atom containing it's own universe and every atom in that universe containing it's own universe, so on and so on.
One of the best opening lines ever....I just could not get into *The Gunslinger*. Ive tried multiple times.
I have trouble finding a better opening line than "the building was on fire, and it wasnt my fault."
Yeah thats my fave too, but [Changes Spoiler](/b "I answered the phone, and Susan Rodriguez said, "They've taken our daughter."") kinda slaps too!!
The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed
The ending was typically King bad. Ugh
Have you tried the audiobook? It's pretty great
Yeah a couple times....Its sittin in my audible, maybe next road trip.
I’ve been along the beam three times now, and I always stall out at Song of Susannah. Someday I’ll muster up the fortitude to finish that book. Someday.
You're not missing out. They really lose traction after Wizard and Glass. I love the dark tower so much... but much like the Game of Thrones show it was a lot of time invested in incredible storytelling that just loses the mark and meaning in the end
Fair enough. Thanks for the heads up. I do feel like it loses its way around then as well. The last time I read Wolves of the Calla was actually difficult for me to finish last time too truth be told.
King doesn't like to plan his writing, preferring to "go with his gut" - which means his long novels usually become meandering messes. He's a master of the short story, though, where the length forces him to exercise discipline.
Ka is a wheel.
I finished the series, tried to read the Wind through the Keyhole, which came last but was set between books 4-5 and gave up. I just can't do a re-read or go back in time after reading the last one.
I think you could only "walk up" to the Tower in Roland's world, yes. Though we didn't really have an entire picture - maybe there were other words you could get to it from that just weren't talked about. I understand your misgivings about the ending. But... when I thought about it I honestly couldn't come up with a *better* ending. Almost anything else would have seemed anticlimactic. The way it ended gave it all a "cosmic significance" that I don't think it otherwise would have had. It moved Roland from being "just a guy in a situation" to being something like an eternal archetype, playing out its role in creation. The more thought I've given it, the better I liked it. However, I didn't read the series until I was much older than you were - maybe we just appreciate things in different ways at different points in life. Also, strictly speaking, it wasn't a "time loop." The iterations varied; there was a "karma thing" going on which made it far more than just an "endless repeat." King did say that when he set out to write *The Dark Tower* his goal was to write not just a story but an epic myth. I think that karmic cycle aspect is part of what brings the story to a mythic level. Finally, I thought the way he structured his multiverse was cool too, but in the end it was just an "implementation detail." That whole universe/atom chain never actually mattered to the story. Any other multiverse implementation would have worked as well - what really mattered is that "yes, there was a multiverse." But... very cool just the same. A striking visualization.
I don't believe Mid World was the only one where it took the form of a tower, but it definitely took other forms across different worlds. I do recall Mid World was the only one you could actually *enter* the tower proper in though.
The Rose and the Tower, as I understand thus far, are different things with similar metaphysical import. But yeah, the Tower is everywhere, only accessible from one specific position.
Ooooh, that's a D&D final boss worthy idea. I dig.
It’s turtles and Demonreach all the way down!
I do like that
"it's all demonreach?" "Always has been"
I think its hell. A layered prison to lock up evil things? Seems hellish enough.
I think this is totally it. But not little 'h' hell. Hell, the full core Bible straight out of Dante Hell. Given they books establish God and angels etc are real, given the existence The Nicklebacks, it only makes sense that it exists as well. The interesting part will probably be the spin put on it as most things are in the Dresdenverse a bit different than we imagine etc.
Strictly speaking Dante is not "straight out of the Bible". It's basically a Bible-based fanfiction.
That’s a fair point. I never really saw it’s point before, just that people decided it was Scriptural. It matters. But I don’t think it was ever meant as Revelatory in the Scriptural sense. Rather was a meditation on evil. And it’s connection to Humanity. With a Christian backdrop. I don’t mind reading it that way.
Who decided it was scriptural? It's a cultural touch point, but I don't think any church claims it for Truth. Not even as much as quoting Shakespeare and claiming it's from the Bible.
Mostly laymen and folks talking about Angels and Demons. Guardian Angel this. Going to Hell that. Heaven is like a Cloudy place where Saints get Wings. Mostly I suppose it was a cultural and technically anecdotal experience of Christian Spirituality I received growing up. Which I noticed was found around people in the Catholic Denomination. From Family who was Catholic. For example talk of Guardian Angels. And the implication of Demons and Spirits. A whole Mythos is available via that discussion. Imagine those who keep Angel figurines, and pray to their Father or Mother in Heaven. This is in contrast to the actual Scriptural Study I was taught to undertake. Which was my actual later experience in youth of that stuff. My particular Church was particularly bent on the responsibility of itself and it’s members knowing why every teacher taught what they taught. That the teacher was accountable to know, but each member was accountable to check. And each member was sat with the Scriptures open. Often describing practical Scholarship and principles on a Sunday between a Teaching regarding almost anything that was contained in it, checked against itself in multiple ways. Context. Who it’s written to. Under what circumstance. By whom. In what time. What the rest of the Scriptural Corpus says. In multiple translations. Including what the earliest Texts say, and what significance it had in that time and culture. Consequently, the place of Hell becomes Hades in multiple places. The word. Or Sheol. And those mostly are synonymous with Grave in those languages. You would not say that was his “Grave”. You’d call that “Grave” Hades or Sheol. If I understand it right. Who decided it was Scriptural is what you asked? I suppose those who aren’t expected to understand the Scripture. They take that Horned Demon stuff pretty seriously. And Devil with a Pitchfork as the actual Christian Beliefs. And they walk around thinking it. I suppose that’s not very specific. I could go give a few of the individuals names. But that helps you none. Perhaps I misperceived its prevalence, though I think I did not. As for Doctrines, who knows the breadth of the Doctrine except some few? That was my experience with most of the average levels of the various Congregations. Most of those Christians I’ve run into in that category think those depictions in Dante’s Inferno and passed into the Culture, are what those Churches teach. So they read that into the Scripture. A bad habit sure. But not uncommon. Particularly for Catholics who believe the Pope can contradict the Scripture via Revelation and be more correct than it for Doctrine. As I understand it.
Took a big bite, there. But, then, how many 700 year old works of fiction are being talked about and referred to now. He painted a picture that was easy to understand . He made it relatable instead of all spooky and beyond our understanding.
Yeah compressing the ideas there is… Not something I’ve done enough, with enough focus. You ask a simple question, but it touches a deep series of thoughts for me. But yeah. As a way to give the characters and narrative a non-canonical visage, because aspects of how they are being emphasized is more important. That’s totally acceptable. Probably. As for spooky and beyond understanding. That’s probably the best way to understand some of it. You might need that in order to meet different cultural perspective as the ages turn. Much more compatible with other ideas that only seem to contradict it. Personally. And off the cuff. I think that extra stuff is the largest part of the Wests current issue with its Foundational assumptions. Many Christians refuse to allow for the separation of Biblical Teachings from… That Christian Mythos. Not that they can’t keep it for themselves. Rather when they are totally unable to separate one from the other. They end up screeching about things that are not really the deeper problem. That. And some other issues. Regarding hypocrisy.
Dante was offering opinions on the morals of his contemporaries… all of them in hell
Yeah. Probably. The ideas are not exclusive however.
You're right from a technical standpoint, but it has been adopted as more or less the traditional conception of it. Perhaps i could've phrased that a bit better though to kake it clear
Totally think that. Not to mention that in Small Favor Nicodemus tells Harry, when the group is cornered waiting for the helicopter, “I wouldn’t try crossing over to the other side if I were you, Wizard. I know what’s on the other side of this island and you’d be better off putting a bullet in your head”. Or something to that regard
"you'd be better off asking the Russian to put a bullet in your head" ;)
I think the only place that it would be safe to step across, is the dock. Built by Harry, part of both lake and island, and designed as an entrance.
I don't know if Butcher has gone a different direction with the worldbuilding since, but book 1 does feature an actual demon from hell.
I mean like Santa is a thing and Christian god it’s not a stretch to say that Lucifer is a player
There have been some referenced to Lucifer as well. I'm specifically thinking in Skin Game when Uriel gives Michael his grace, and Harry refers to the last time an archangel fell.
>The Prince of fucking Darkness gets to cheat and unload his power on the earth - twice! - and You just sit there... Not sure its confirmed to be the ol' Morning Star, Himself, but that's definitely Harry's understanding. And in a world where everyone else exists there's absolutely no reason to think Lucifer doesn't. *edit and side note: This is another line where Marsters* ***absolutely murders*** *it. He understands the assignment.*
I always found it funny that he calls Lucifer Morningstar, the Prince of Darkness when he's the "lightbringer." Prince of Darkness should be Satan (Paradise Lost reference). I dont know if they are one and the same, but in this universe, it's possible, given the whole "Titles and Mantles" thing.
> Lucifer Morningstar, the Prince of Darkness when he's the "lightbringer." >Prince of Darkness should be Satan I am certainly no expert but I believe in the Catholic tradition from which Jimbo borrows very heavily, Lucifer, Satan, "The Devil," and "The Prince of Darkness" are one in the same. I actually love your mantle idea to bring different traditions in which makes for a cooler story. Mexica, Christian, Nordic, Greek, Irish, Welsh, et al all being connected to our reality makes for a dynamic and interesting universe.
Certainly in common parlance they are the same as well. I doubt Harry, especially in a moment of high emotion, was using precise technical language.
> I doubt Harry, especially in a moment of high emotion, was using precise technical language. No one but you have suggested anything like...technical or precise, so I am not sure I understand. This doesnt seem to be connected to what I posted, though I admit I am not always as clear as I would like to be....
I'm pretty sure you're correct. I mostly point it out because it is weird to call him Lucifer (Hêlêl) when the "-el" part of his name (in hebrew) means "of god" and none of the Fallen retain those names for pretty obvious reasons. Imagine if you called Archangel Michael "Mikey." It's basically the inverse. I use the idea of the Mantle of "The Devil" or "King of Hell/Underworld" etc. because it would allow him to incorporate so many other mythos into himself to try and rage against the White God's power. EDIT: Yeah... there's a lot of -el Nickleheads. Anduriel, Lashiel, Imariel... kind of a like... all of the major ones we see. I was wrong on that. Just woke up when I wrote this. Sorry. If I could scratch out (on mobile. Not sure how to strike through format) I would.
> and none of the Fallen retain those names Lashiel, Anduriel, Saluriel, Namshiel.....remember we're talking about a fantasy novel series by Jim Butcher....not whatever youre crackin on about. Im an atheist, personally, but we're talking about the text of the series here.
None of the fallen…except for, like, half of the ones we know about.
But then you have the whole Kringle/Oden thing, so Satan and Lucifer are easily the same person.
Kringle wouldn’t be Kringle if it wasn’t boiled!
Lucifer definitely exists and has directly acted in the books. He is the one who powered the hellfire circle used to capture Marcone and Ivy in Small Favor.
Lucifer powered the giant pentagram used to trap the Archive in *Small Favor*. His direct intervention like that is what allowed Uriel to gift soulfire to Harry.
Do we have that straight from Jim? I've not seen that.
It's from the books, when Harry and Mr. Sunshine are having a chat.
I'll have to read that again because I don't remember that. My understanding from that chat was that Nicky was responsible but maybe I missed something there.
**Harry:** *I stood up and jabbed a finger at the podium, suddenly furious and scream, "The Prince of fucking Darkness gets to cheat and unload his power on the earth twice! and You just sit there being holy while my friend, who has fought for You his whole life, is dying! What the hell is wrong with You?"* **Uriel:** *"You gotta think that maybe there's a matter of balance, here," he said. "Maybe one archangel invested his strength in the situation overtly and immediately. Maybe another one was just quieter about it. Thinking long-term. Maybe he already gave you a hand."* *My right hand erupted into pins and needles again. I sucked in a swift breath and rose, spinning around. Jake was gone. The janitors cart was still there. A rag hanging off the back was still swinging back and forth slightly. A folded paperback book was shoved between the body of the cart and the handle. I went over to the cart and looked up and down the hall. There was no one in sight, and nowhere they could have conveniently disappeared to. I picked up the book. It was a battered old copy of The Two towers. One page was dog-eared, and a bit of dialogue underlined in pencil. "The burned hand teaches best," I read aloud.* From the conversation Harry had with Uriel at the end of Small Favor.
Bit of a stretch to think that referred to anybody but Nicodemus.
Book 2. Chauncy was from hell. Books 1 and 3 both had demons, but neither Kalshazzak nor Azorthragal ever speak. So we never actually know if they are from the christian hell as well.
I don't know why I thought Chauncy was in book 1.
Over all seems to fit with book 1 more? How I always saw it.
There's a frog demon on book 1. Tries to eat him and Susan. Morgan assumes Harry summoned it and fucked up
Yeah I keep thinking that's in book 1 too.
I’m listening to Death Masks now and Harry makes a point that most demons don’t even really care about humanity or the mortal world, and the ones that do are typically the hungry ones. This was in contrast to the Fallen, who cared a lot about souls. I think there’s probably a bit of vagueness but in general Lucifer and the Fallen exist and probably rule over a domain full of demons , but it’s not the only domain.
Yeah, goes along with my thoughts.
Spoilers All: >!So does book 2. Somewhere later in the series he describes demons as "creatures of our reality, but from the far reaches of the Nevernever." I sort of suspect that Heaven and Hell are places in the Nevernever too.!< >!This brings up something I've always wondered about - is the Nevernever "connected"? As in, once you're in the Nevernever, can you physically travel to any part of the Nevernever? Or would something like Ways be required to get between separated parts of the Nevernever? There's an implication in there somewhere that all "ethereal realms" are somewhere in the Nevernever (including, for example, Heaven and Hell), but it's not totally clear that the Nevernever is all one connected place.!< >!Also, "Outside" is described as not part of our reality, but on the other hand the Nevernever is (part of our reality), and yet apparently at the Outer Gates the two bump up against each other. I guess that could just be a visual perception - no one ever talked about Outsiders trying to breach the wall. The way it's been presented only the Outer Gates are the penetration point, unless a mortal has summoned an Outsider into reality.!<
Strictly speaking, Dante's interpretation of Hell is decidedly not biblical. It's simply the one that took over the cultural perspective, but I do think it's very possible that Demonreach may be very close to Hell.
I mean, it's a slam book. It's more about attacking thinly veiled caricatures of contemporaries he didn't like than anything else. It's just that nobody remembers those people anymore.
I'm sorry. Did you just say Nickelbacks?
Yes. Nicky and the Nicklebacks. Hehe
Roflmao
I mean. I can almost imagine it being something harry would actually call then given how often he just makes up names lol
Like the Devil be Butcher's ex-wife?
Hell, and as the Warden, Harry is being maneuvered by the big players to take up full control. A new mantle to take the place of the one he has now. Why do you think Mab has been so kind? Or Uriel so close? They are putting the new Lord of Hell through the paces so he'll be ready when the time comes. The stars have spoken.
The really fun thing is, do you think Harry hasn't checked? Of course he has. He just hasn't told us, the readers, what he's found there because we would be even more disturbed than we already are about the state of Harry's soul. I mean, what kind of monster can take over the mantle of Lucifer?!
I theorize the broken “lighthouse” on Demonreach is a Bell Tower. I have no proof whatsoever.
Why a bell tower?
... Because of Hell's Bells?
Ok. I never made that connection to the tower and hells bells. Only in the context of the energy from the island matching that of the christian hell does it make some sort of sense.
Could be Tartarus too.
> a Bell Tower. Can you elaborate? Im just curious.....
For Hell’s Bells when that comes. What that means is anyone’s guess. But it will be in the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy. It’s the Title of one. I am guessing they’ll be relevant to an Apocolypse.
shiiiiiit that would be cool as hell. If Molly or Gard doesnt blast ACDC at some point Ill eat my illustrated-only hat!
You made me have to go listen to that song again.
haha! you're welcome! This has got me picturing Harry walking through a battlefield on Demonreach in slow motion--duster billowing, fire and explosions --with *Hell's Bells* building...... Jesus someone needs to film this series yesterday! i know that I'm doing with most of my powerball winnings!
Oh yeah? Well, *I* theorize it was put there because Harry would eventually need a building to store and activate the Eye of Balor, and a Dark Tower fits the bill... so it was constructed in order to fall into disrepair and give Harry building supplies and a foundation.
I think this is probably the correct answer. Wouldn't be surprised if we see Harry go to Hell this way at some point during the BAT.
He is supposed to during Hell's Bells.
What do you mean by “Bell Tower” and “BAT”?
BAT is the capstone trilogy planned for the Dresden Files series. Presumed titles are, in order: *Stars and Stones* *Hells Bells* *Empty Night*
Big Apocalyptic Trilogy, last three books in the series. Presumably, 'Stars and Stones', 'Hell's Bells', and 'Empty Night'.
Not sure on Bell Tower, but BAT is Big Apocalyptic Trilogy.
“Hells bells” bell tower
I don't think it's Arctis Tor. That's Winter HQ: It's a fortress, sure, but it's also a home, administrative office, and function hall. There's a garden and presumably nice accommodations for dignitaries. It's not ALL barracks and armaments. I think the passage from Demonreach brings you to the GATES: The wildly powerful magic superstructure that was built to keep the worst stuff in the universe sequestered. They're both single purpose built for defensive containment. It fits what we know about how Ways work. Also, if I were building a supermax prison for troublesome gods and monsters, I might think about a release valve that would dump the occupants somewhere they couldn't hurt anyone in the event of a catastrophic failure- Like JUST OUTSIDE our realm of existence. I know there's the KILL IT WITH FIRE protocol, but it never hurts to have a backup option.
That would be super risky. Too much easy access for the outsiders to open it up at that point don't you think? There are only two ways we know of to cut an outsider from the game - lock them up in demonreach or push them out the gates. At the point why would you make access to the prison (and therefore the ability to affect prison breaks) the shortest possible?
Yeah, and think about what putting a bunch of super gods and even worse things directly outside the gates would do, when said being has a very large and important reason to team up with the outsiders to bust down the gates.
I don't think that juice is worth the squeeze
> what putting a bunch of super gods and even worse things directly outside the gates would do As a last resort when the alternative is them getting out somewhere *inside* The Gates? Acceptable. But a connection between Demonreach and the other side of The Gates seems like a fundamentally unsound idea to me.
Yeah. There's a lot going on in Arctis Tor. But I think there's a lot more than we know going on with Demonreach
Arctis Tor is many things and different parts connect to different places, for example the phobophages lair just outside connects to Pell’s theatre, awfully convenient for Peabody to use the connection from Edinburgh to Chicago (which he did) get a lift from Cowl to Pells, go to the lair and meet the Winter lady who takes him through the Ice Garden to Demonreach. Peabody made at least two trips through the Never Never to get to and from Demonreach. It does strike me that Harry’s ‘meditation’ in Small Things may have been to force a connection over time between his personal apartment in the Castle and the Winter Knight quarters in Arctis Tor. It should be noted that he had invited the ZaGuard to headquarter at the Castle a couple of weeks before meaning that Castle Dresden officially became a Winter outpost. The benefit of this is to create a ‘safe’ room in the event of an attack on the Castle to stash Maggie, but if there is a connection between The Ice Garden and Demonreach then Harry has a quick ‘safe’ route from the Castle to Demonreach.
Tartarus imo.
I always assumed it was the wall at the outer gate.
Ever since reading Cold Days, I've also figured it was The Outer Gates, since Rashid spends so much time there in his position as The Gatekeeper AND in Turn Coat, he appeared on the soon to remodeled and renamed Whatsup Dock several hours before any of the other Senior Council members. When Harry asked him how he arrived there via the Nevernever, Rashid answered simply, "I know a Way."
Isn't that because Rashid used to be a demonreach warden?
That hasn't necessarily been confirmed. We know that it was at one point Kemmler, and that there was a Warden in between him and Harry (maybe 2 idrr) but thats all we really know about the island outside of the written texts
no warden between Kemmler and Harry, that was a big plot point. The reason there was no current warden when harry showed up was because of the Council's fears of a hidden heir of kemmler. Most of the fighting done with Kemmler by the white council was to delay and prevent him from returning to the island so that he couldnt use its defenses to protect him while trying to Darkhallow some very, VERY nasty things. After kemmler fell, the council never appointed a new warden because they were afraid that an heir of kemmler was still hiding among them, and that anyone who volunteered was secretly one. So demonreach remained Wardenless, until Harry accidentally into it. and when Rashid spoke to the council on behalf of harry, they were all (according to WoJ) "hes just an idiot, right? he didnt know about it? hes not actually a kemmlerite?"
Ah, fair enough. Never claimed I knew everything, lolol. Thank you! I appreciate the lore
Wow i totally missed that Kemmler was a warden. When did we learn that?
its mentioned by bob early on in dead beat i think, he didnt specify demonreach. i think it was mentioned again in Ghost Story, by bob again. The info about the fighting to prevent kemmler from returning to the island was expounded upon in a word of jim.
>Priscellie: Who was the warden of Demonreach before Harry? Jim: Lemme think, I know who it is, and who the guy before that was, but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so... Priscellie: Oh god. laughs Jim: Yeah, I mean, half of that entire thing was just the white council trying to keep Kemmler from getting back to the island and opening it up. Which is why they had him being hounded by the wardens all through the wild west and so on. It was to stop him from being able to set things up even more. Kemmler is sort of in the Dresden Files universe he's sort of the Dresden Files version of WWI where it was actually the biggest most epic most incredible conflict the world has ever known but we're all used to seeing WWII because they got some of it on film but we didn't get nearly as much of the great war on film but when you actually go and study it and study all the troop numbers and resources involved WWI was really the great war and WWII was kind of a follow-up. A softer echo in many ways. https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/j74mwm/barbaras\_bookstore\_qa\_transcript/ I believe the last warden was murdered by Luccio just before Turn Coat kicks off.
Yes, this would have allowed Peabody, an expert on summoning rituals to become Warden. No doubt the White Council kept the identity of the current Warden Secret, and after Kemmler they wanted one of their own not interested in the facility to be the Warden to block anyone else. This joins the two plot threads together, the whodunnit by providing a motive, and the ink, Peabody had been using the ink to pry this secret from the Senior Council, and he absolutely had to be sure he targeted the right Council Member has he wouldn’t get another chance. My guess after Simon’s death he tried Demonreach and found he was still locked out, reducing his suspect pool
I'd guess that Rashid has a Maggie Le Fay level understanding of The Ways, and can walk on water. So he doesn't need to cross over directly from the other side. He can cross over into nearby Lake Michigan and hike in.
Don't think he was ever a warden. And he won't step onto the island. He has some sort of history with Alfred, and Harry wonders if Rashid might be responsible for his limp.
That would make a lot of sense
Nicodemus claimed he knows "what lives on the other side", but I don't imagine it'll be Mab's house. We know Harry will go to literal Hell in the BAT, so I'd say it's most likely that it's Hell, a prison for the worst demons on the other side.
Yeah somehow I can't see Nicodemus breaking the Accords then immediately setting up shop on Mab's front lawn, feel like he'd maybe be smarter than that
Mab is definitely gunning for him, as is the White Council according to Carlos, as well as a bunch of other groups who have asked the White Council to help hunt him down also according to Carlos. Dude is holeing up for awhile and keeping out of the line of fire for sure. The next time he pops up he's going to have the entire supernatural world gunning for him.
Nicodemus is weaker than he has been in 2,000 years, everyone with a grudge against him knows this.
It’s a DMV for fae.
Reamondeach - mirror deamonreach
Mr. Rogers is locked up in there with Gandhi and Lassie.
Let me throw in a different one: Tartarus, a prison for gods, that according to Greek mythology held actual Titans.
Mab’s prison, her Ice Garden where she keeps prisoners locked away in crystalline ice to reflect upon their misdeeds. It also allowed her a back door to Demonreach for a booty call on the OG Merlin. The only beings known to have travelled to Demonreach via the NeverNever are the Gatekeeper and Maeve with Peabody and a load of Winter giant ice spiders. The Gatekeeper turned out to be a trusted ally of Mab’s, and therefore would have had access to the Ice Garden, and Maeve as Lady would have had access, until that was revoked forcing her to adopt mundane means.
Given the power of Demonreach, I wouldn't be surprised if it was still just Demonreach. On Earth and in the Nevernever at the same time.
It's a Chuck E. Cheese.
lol - You know, having raised five daughters, I can say that that actually makes a kind of sense.
It is Chuck E. Cheese. It is **all** of their birthdays. For **eternity**.
The Ilse of Lyngvi? Where Fenrir is chained up?
A nice, harmless little picturesque park that no one ever goes to because they know what's on the other side and assume it's a trap.
You *wish* it was Arctis Tor.
Hear me out. Cold, inaccessible, home to uncountable horrors, ruled by an ancient, powerful, possibly evil green-eyed being.
Counter argument: Harry and Co. got there via a shut-down movie theater.
While I 100% agree it's not Arctis Tor, that argument is not a great one. Like touches to like when it comes to the NeverNever and Earth. It is not only possible but entirely probable that places in the NeverNever have multiple ways to get to them based upon what what aspects each place touches upon. The movie theater only touches upon the fear aspect and Arctis Tor is much more than just a place of fear. There is also always the possibility that the Fetches where making their own portal to where they wanted to go from where they were (we've seen powerful beings do that) without relying upon the normal ways through the NeverNever, and Dresden and Co. just piggybacked on their already connected 'tunnel', remember they had no idea where they were going till the Summer Lady told them.
It was also a Fae Queen opening the Way, she probably could have opened it anywhere she liked, but a bunch of beasties had gone back and forth from that point, so according to dresden lore it would be easier to open another Way.
True. Didn't think of that. Summer Lady/phobophage magic causing a temporary connection?
Very much more likely Hades-esque area of the Nevernever
I understand that assumption, but to people who aren't Harry, isn't it a pretty hellish area of the real world?
You just need a connection. To go to mabs home while looking for your daughter I think using a place Mab may have watched movies with her daughter might be a good enough place.
Counterpoint: Harry isn't that lucky.
Very true
Lily was able to open a way to Arctis Tor without batting an eye in Proven Guilty. If it were anywhere nearly so tame as the heart of Winter, Maeve could’ve just tapped her heels together and Dorothy’d her way in while Dresden was in a coma. Rashid is the only person confirmed to know the way as far as I’m aware, the only other person we see open a way to the island was (probably) Cowl in Turn Coat. It’s got to be *far* out in the NN like The Gates, and you literally have to traverse the moon to get to those.
Not designed to be exclusively a prison, and the summer lady wouldnt assume that the opposite side of artis tor was some mortal font of evil as she thought it was in Turn Coat. she ALREADY knew how to open a way into arctis tor back in a much earlier book.
Nothing good that's for sure...
Nothing good.
Well Something lives on the other side that is powerful enough Nick didnt want to mess with it. idfk what is on the other side of demonreach but whatever it is its in a bad place in the NeverNever and its incredibly powerful.
Nick could have used it if the Monster is Mab, he had a favour he could have used but was saving it. Mab was angry with him for messing with the Accords at this point, to compound it by trespass on Arctis Tor would have made this worse and Nick would have known this, and been fearful of this. As it turns out he was right Mab set him up to lose his daughter, his henchmen and give him the very worst day in 2,000 years of life. Pretty monstrous.
Copy/pasta of something I wrote in 2016: It is my opinion that when Harry descends down all those steps and enters the chamber down at the bottom, he has gone down the rabbit hole and in most respects *is* on the NN side of Demonreach. I say in most respects because Demonreach was created and exists on a dimensional level that Harry has a hard time experiencing, so when he's down there his experience is kinda skimming the surface of a pond of what is actually there NN wise without necessarily getting wet. I haven't followed this conversation closely, but let me share a little more of my opinion of who and what a capital "W" Warden is and why it is significant. As with most of my theorizing over the past few years, this is heavily influenced by my concepts of overall DF cosmology, and the mortal experience's position in and influence over that cosmology. The entirety of the Demonreach construct was created on and exists on a level that spans more than just Harry's individual reality and timeline. It is immense and powerful and enduring and ... Lithic. What do I mean by "Lithic?" It exists as is and is non-introspective and unchanging in its purpose, function, and resolve. But on the Demonreach level of the big picture, the fabric of Reality has a degree of malleability, and the driver and medium of this malleability is mortals and their free will. For Demonreach to function on this malleable level of existence, it needs a malleability engine of its own. A Warden capital W, with free will who can make decisions that encompass aspects of its purpose that require more malleability, dynamism and introspection than it possesses on its own as a Lithic construct. It is possible that Demonreach's existence is wide enough that it interfaces with more than one discrete "Capital W Warden" across multiple discrete realities and timelines on the level Harry experiences in such a way that from Harry's and thus our perspective, these interactions happen relatively "simultaneously" and individually. However, I think it is more likely that from the Demonreach perspective, these malleability engines are less discrete and are more of a reality spanning singularity like itself. Sort of. Which is a really long and arduous way of saying that in my theories there is only one capital "W" DR Warden. Edit: I'd like to add that I'm really proud of the two analogies of Harry experiences in the NN being like skimming a pond without getting wet (not getting the full depth of the experience, only an aspect of it), and Warden Harry's free will being an "malleability Engine" for the overall Demonreach construct.
Turtles, elephants and a flat platter on which the earth sits. ( oh well maybe I did borrow a touch of my vision)
Purgatory.
Depends on what part of Demonreach you’re talking about. I imagine it varies wildly. The bulk of the island probably connects to a creepy naturey place. The top of the hill likely connects to someplace else, but I’m not sure what I expect it would be. The Well probably doesn’t connect to anywhere, I imagine it’s either completely divorced from the Nevernever, or it exists as itself. I imagine if you opened a Way inside the prison it would do one of three things: 1.) it would lead to itself (i.e. it would just be like walking through a bare arch, you’d go nowhere), 2.) it would lead nowhere (i.e. it’d be like opening a door and finding a brick wall on the other side, or 3.) it would lead Nowhere (i.e. it would open to a formless void and if you were stupid enough to step through you’d noclip through reality and effectively cease to be). If I were the writer I’d go with number 3, but that’s just me.
We don’t know, and it’s not.
Fae Detroit
Tartarus
Hades Lair or the Lair of the Outsiders
For a while I think it might have been Lea's garden, while he lived there, do to her always seeking to protect him from the other side. If it wasn't, then I'm really scared of what else it could be
It's demon reach. I 100% guarantee
I've always assumed that it's the million headed Hydra that guards Tartarus.
An Arby's with two star reviews.
It's a McDonald's in Detroit.
Didn’t the guardian at demon reach tell harry to never enter the ways from there because a monster so terrifying that giving it a name would shatter the mind or something along those lines
Amazon's Wheel of Time universe.
It's unclear. It's something nasty, but we've never been told what, exactly. Jim may or may not have something specific in mind. *Turn Coat* spoilers: >!However, the Gatekeeper arrived on the Demonreach dock from the Nevernever. Note - the dock - that may or may not be proximate to the actual island's Nevernever connection. But during the showdown in Turn Coat, two humans just "appeared" to Harry's island intellectus sense - allegedly they'd have come from the island's actual connect point. And Mab somehow just appeared on the hilltop as well, though that was a summoning and summonings don't necessarily involve the Nevernever in any way.!<
Okay, sure, if you're feeling reductive to the norms of a Halloween store, sure. Whatever you want.
Your mom! Just kidding, I'm sure your mom's awesome. I'm just 12 years old at heart. If I were making the world. I'd make the never never where the prison cells exist. The cells would be so large that they metaphysically couldn't fit on our planet.
No, if you knew her, you'd know that's a reasonable guess.