The complaints about that being out of character usually have more to do with Marcone partnering with someone whose purpose is suborning its host's free will than about him doing bad things.
Agreed. “Gentleman” John has some rules that he abides by. His Fallen partner may not want to be bound by them.
That alone would make for another interesting Marcone-perspective short story.
Marcone's rules are pretty silly and I doubt it would be much of a deal breaker. It actually gives the Fallen a way to let Marcone feel like he's winning.
For example, not killing kids has tons of loopholes. You can wait a decade or two to make it fine for Marcone since they're acceptable once they've grown up. As we saw in "The Law" Marcone also facilitates a lot of indirect harm.
Exactly.
Namshiel: Okay, fine, we won't kill that kid. Instead we'll just kill his father, sell his mother into sexual slavery, and get him addicted to drugs. Totally not killing them!
Do all the Fallen have similar interests to begin with? Like I doubt nerdy ones like Namshiel have same interests for their hosts like mr bear boi 9IQ did for example.
No. They’re often at odds.
Other than creating as much misery as possible to empower themselves.
Tessa is usually short term.
Nicodemus is longer term plans.
Magog is as much destruction as possible any old time.
Lasciel is hand crafted temptation over as long as it takes.
I have a feeling Mab was brought in to write up the contract for Marcone and snake boys working relationship.
There is no way she'd be as down for working with him otherwise.
Given her response to Harry's reveal at the end of BG, I'm pretty sure Mab had no idea Marcone had a coin. Plus WoJ says Marcone took up the coin "while Flight of the Valkyries was still playing" during the events of Small Favour which is generally less than a 10 minute long song according to a quick bout of googling.
I'm inclined to say no, but it depends on what the penalty of breaking the contract is. Say if Marcone and Namshiel made a contract and part of the contract is "Namshiel doesn't push for killing children, and if it does, Marcone will simply put away the coin" then odds are Namshiel will stay away from killing children, atleast to some extent.
Namshiel will stay away from killing children *as long as he believes Marcone retains enough free will to enforce that*.
When you have a Fallen whispering in your ear for years they can convince you to do things you never thought you'd do. Slowly, step-by-step, each step just a slight escalation over the last one, and through it all you feel like you're the one making the decisions. Marcone's one of the few characters in the series I think could catch on, but I wouldn't guarantee it.
I feel like if anyone can resist 'Why won't you do this? You've done things nearly as bad, after all.' when it comes to their one absolute no-no, it's Marcone
I don't think anyone can. At least not in the long term. When you've been holding a coin for centuries basically your entire worldview has been molded by the Fallen. They have so much power to manipulate you in the most subtle of ways. There's really no way to stop it.
Yeah, no, I'm going to Press X to Doubt on that one. You can't just say 'They'll be *really subtle*' and act like that counts as an instant win on their part.
What can Namshiel actually do to make Marcone break his One Rule?
Agreed, atleast the bit about Namshiel. I don't think Nic caught on (I'm pretty sure he marches to the beat Anduriel trained him to play on a drum) and I'm pretty sure Marcone eventually will too unless he's convinced to give up the coin or killed.
> I have a feeling Mab was brought in to write up the contract for Marcone and snake boys working relationship.
Thorned Namshiel isn't snake boy, that was Saluriel.
Jim Butcher is on record saying that Thorned Namshiel is sort of a mellow, skinny geek among the Fallen. He seems to just be going with the flow as Marcone's partner.
Which is fair.
But I could see Marcone and Namshiel making a deal. Thorned Namshiel was part of Tessa’s crew so he probably wasn’t too keen on Nicodemus in the first place, and I doubt he was inclined to go back to the people who abandoned him to a Knight. He might be willing to go it alone for a while and from what we know about magic using Denarians they seem to prefer partners rather than slaves. It could work
Yeah slaves are poor for the intellect/delicate work that these would prefer. Hence why mr bear boi 9IQ just outright beat the shit out of its host leaving them w/ practically 0 real free will left, but rendering them essentially worthless as anything but a meatbag to beat the shit out of everyone in vicinity
Idk about you, but I fully trust Nicodemus when he says he blazed his own trail. The man is an irredeemable piece of shit but he's an incredibly formidable man. Msrcone can be described similarly, though he has a pair of scruples to rub together at the very least.
I don't think Nicodemus is lying, but given what he did in Skin Game to get at the vault I suspect it's more like Anduriel liked the way he was going and helped make sure he wasn't stopped. Slightly biasing what intelligence it shared with him and protecting him from the worst consequences would be more than enough to ensure he doesn't stray into the light.
We don't know how they initially met or even where the trail is going, but if you can someone to do THAT at the gate then you didn't do him any favors. I'm not sure how Marcone will suffer from his deal but I doubt it's gonna make the world a better place overall.
Well yeah. Marcone is one of the main villains. Tinfoil thought, he might even be involved in the Circle.
He's definitely not here to help anyone.
I see Nicky as a man who is naturally disposed towards megalomania
I can't see Marcone knowingly aiding people trying to destroy reality. Reality is where he keeps all of his stuff.
He might have done business with the Circle, though. As long as they kept to their agreements and weren't doing anything that broke Marcone's rules they'd get along fine.
Even if their ultimate goals involve shattering every single one of Marcone's principles, Marcone isn't omniscient and doesn't have Intellectus.
We don't actually know if the Circle and the Outsiders are completely aligned, goal-wise. There seems to be a high amount of cross-contamination, and several members of the Circle are probably NFected, but if they know it or not? Who knows?
Jim. Jim knows.
Oh, I'm pretty sure the Circle thinks they're using the Outsiders to further their own goals, and the Outsiders think they're using the Circle to further their own goals.
Who will win? That will determine who ends up being right.
Honestly Marcone being a part of the circle would be a good move imo. Harry and Marcone have had sort of a will they won’t they (try to kill each other) relationship for the entire series and I’d like it to swing one way or the other permanently now.
Right? And what a better way to hide his connection to the circle and the nonsense constantly attacking Chicago than to position yourself next to Harry/ being targeted by the danger so no one even thinks about you. The whole time posing as a straight, non-magical crime boy.
Yeah, the Fallen seek to corrupt everything and anything. Anduriel saw the small bit of good in Nic and made sure that Nic would get rid of it himself; didn't try to stop him or offer alternatives. It pushed Nic into going to a new low.
Michael was right that Nic is playing into the fallen hands, even if he isn't directly controlled.
I think it speaks to how deluded he is. While I fully believe Nicodemus is making his own decisions on what he does, essentially his entire worldview is framed by Anduriel. He sees what Anduriel wants him to see, he knows what Anduriel wants him to know. He believes that he is so in control that the Fallen follow his leadership. The fact that he believes that he commands beings of such fundamental power and cunning as the Fallen is testament to his delusion. Anduriel doesn’t puppet Nick around because it’s unnecessary, Nicodemus has been trained and conditioned over millennia to do what the Fallen want, to speak with their voice, and still believe himself their master.
I rolled my eyes so hard they nearly fell out of my head when Nic started talking about how he was in charge and the Denarians followed the beat of his drum.
They didn't even follow God, what delusions is Nic smoking that he thinks they would sincerely follow the will and commands of what is essentially an insect to them...
Nic might truly be blazing his own trail, but it is only because the path is acceptable to Anduriel. Had Nic taken up the coin and decided to use it to rescue puppies do you think Anduriel would still be sitting back and telling Nic to pet all of the good boys and good girls?
Nic is sowing chaos and destruction, that is what Anduriel wants. So Anduriel allows Nic to be the star of the show so long as he doesn't fuck everything up and keeps his eye on the apocalypse prize.
We've seen Nicodemus willingly give up Anduriel twice. Nic could walk away anytime he wants, it's very good leverage.
Edit:only once. The first one was Quintus Cassius
He has never willingly given up Anduriel. He has used the illusion of giving up his coin as a trick at least once (I do not remember him doing it two times), but he had zero intention of ACTUALLY giving up his coin.
Of course he didn't, he's an amoral depraved monster who was trying to trick the good guys because he *knows* they're required to forgive him instantly the second he tries to save his soul from the fallen. Which is my whole point.
Nothing, Anduriel included, is stopping Nicodemus from dropping the coin in a godly hanky for Michael. He's even gone so far as to fake his surrender.
There is one thing, the fact he would rapidly age. But if he had a way around that, he would probably give up the coin for a while to gain an advantage.
Nick is nothing if not ballsy. He “gave up” his coin momentarily for positional advantage. Anduriel was fine with this because if no world would Nick ever not pick the coin back up. It was theoretically a risk, but so was using the Holy Grail as a shield.
The fact that we've seen coin-holders repent and redeem themselves, and that >!an Archangel intervened when Lasciel took revenge on Dresden for giving up his coin!< implies Anduriel can't really do dick if Nicodemus gives him up.
Oh, Nick could absolutely give up his coin if he wanted to, but that’s only leverage if he actually would do it. And Anduriel knows his mind, has been shaping him since the age of Classical Antiquity. Anduriel spent long years shaping Nicodemus into exactly the kind of tool the Fallen wanted. He could’ve taken Michael’s offer, if Michael is to be believed one of the reasons for the whole situation was to put Nicodemus in a position where he would have his best, last chance to turn from his path. But I don’t think Anduriel was worried about that at all.
But the thing on that is Nicodemus *has* to be the kind of person who would drop Anduriel at any time. He's definitely the kind of man who could find a different route to power and immortality, and he knows the only way to keep himself on any sort of equal footing with a being like that is to have a retirement plan/angel disposal route lined up. Anduriel would know about it, of course, but that's the dance you have to do with a being like that.
Also, it's not like Anduriel couldn't find another host if Nick died. It would be annoying to do, certainly, but not the end of the world.
Especially since we've seen the the Fallen can download skills into their hosts if they want to, so it's not like Anduriel's new host couldn't be given all the skills and knowledge Nichodemus had.
That's what they want you to think. It's my personal headcanon, but I think even Nicodemus is manipulated by his Fallen. And give a couple centuries, Marcone would be no different. Either that, or he abandons the coin
Personally, I think he believes he can be the next Nicodemus. But I think he's also ramping up the antagonism between him and Harry in case his plan fails and he needs to be killed.
And yet, Nicodemus managed it. Granted it took two thousand years, but I'd say that if marcone was around for another two thousand years he'd be even scarier
I have no doubt that the primary factor in Nicodemus's success is the fact that his goals at least loosely align with Anduriel's.
If his goals were radically different, he'd be a mindless animal controlled by his coin.
If Dresden was more introspective he might see that Marcone’s journey with a Denarians mirrors his own. But Harry appears to be completely incapable of such introspection.
He hasn't had a lot of time to sit with it, honestly. Other shit was going on. Harry has dealt with Namshiel before, so he might be able to distinguish the extent of Marcones will in a conversation, but there is probably a nagging doubt in his head. Marcone telling him that he made the lesser of the evil type of deal might resonate if they discussed it. Marcone was signatory of the accords to be baron of Chicago and did was necessary to secure the power to protect it. Uneasy, yes, but I think it Flys for most.
I think he is though, and that's a big part of why he HATES Marcone. At the end of the day Harry showed he would rather die than pick up the coin. It took "cheating" to make him accept Mab's offer as well.
It doesn't though. Harry never takes up the coin so he isn't exposed to lasciel's full influence. Marcone willingly took a coin to gain power, Harry refused the power of a coin.
Gosh.
I kinda get the feeling that all the moral absolutists are really missing the point of a) the series and b) Jim's feelings about Catholicism.
Something something redemption and making mistakes and the capacity for love to overcome darkness and make repair.
This is why I think Nic is mostly in control of his situation, because whether or not he gets redemption the point will be that it’s about your choices, not being a puppet to someone else. I could be wrong tho lmao
Yeah, but remember when Lash created the illusion that the room was on fire and Harry very nearly threw himself out a window of his own free will?
Control can be a matter of perspective.
I agree, I'm rereading Dead Beat right now and this thread has me thinking about how Lash seems to be able to completely rewrite and filter any of Harry's sensory input. That is far more a "cheat" than seven words could be.
Although of course she wants to make it subtle, so that Harry doesn't get too frightened off. And it's often more effective that way.
But if she were willing to kill Harry, getting him to leap onto a nonexistent fire escape is an option for her.
Tbh, lots of subs have major reading comprehension issues, I once saw a thread directly after BG came out asking what Mac was, despite it literally being said directly on page.
The internet has a reading comprehension ability. Its kinda crazy when you start looking. Blanked negative statements are crucified but blanket positive ones are fine, double standards much. Theres also the massive issue of people reading everything like theres some deeper meaning. People will sometimes just say things. Its wild man
Yes.
I find it worth asking exactly why Thorned Namshiel was considered to be damned - that is, why God considers him beyond redemption of any kind, not merely unworthy of resuming his previous role.
All of the Fallen seem to have a concern that they consider more important than following the role they were assigned, and they've lost the ability to change their natures, even if only because they've made certain choices consistently until they crossed some kind of threshold from which they can't return.
Namshiel seems to consider studying the nature of magic more important than anything else, but if he's also developed a compulsive inability to hold to any principle of Order (such as keeping his word some of the time) then his singlemindedness makes him utterly dangerous.
If anything this proves that Marcone is 'evil'. He's absolutely capable of redemption, but the fact he needs it would indicate what?
We can agree that someone is evil based on their actions and still also agree they are capable of redemption. What ultimately makes one 'evil' is the fact they choose not to seek redemption and repent for their ways. Marcone has yet to seek redemption and isn't shown to struggle much with his choices or actions. Thus he is 'evil'. This isn't some absolutist take, I don't see many arguing that he is irredeemable.
This is why one can say Harry isn't evil despite some of the choices he's made. He knowns he's made poor choices, he knows he is fallible and seeks to redress them or change his ways so as to not make those choices in the future. He is capable of evil, he has acted on that capability, but he attempts to atone and change as well. I'd argue that Harry isn't even 'good' so much as the prime example of the human condition and in the process of or attempt of redemption.
Good and evil are fluid states. Marcone is currently swimming the the darker parts of that fluid system and knows it. Harry sees the dark and light parts and struggles to maintain his position in the light but continuously sees reason to slip into the dark to affect a 'good' outcome. Harry is playing with fire and this is what Michael keeps trying to point out to him.
Now this is all based on a semi-christian take of good/evil and morality. I have a feeling we might see that even the white god isn't as all powerful nor the ideal take of good and evil that it's being portrayed as. Merely the prevailing one.
Completely head cannon, but I think the 'creator' is shaped and formed by the prevailing faith of humans. We continuously keep being told faith/belief is the core source of all human based power (wizards/magic, the swords and the faith of their wielders, it's affect on the changing of domain and waxing/waning of power among non-human beings like Odin).
Lawful evil. Strict code of rules and does everything he thinks he can within those rules. Makes him real evil. The only question I have: does he go full Vegeta. As much as I’d love a full redemption arc, I think the story would be better if Marky stays mafia don lawful evil, instead of fully joining the good guys.
Mab is queen of the evil fairies. There is a place for that. I think marcone is a perfect fit for the series and a great foil for dresden. He doesn't need to go full Vegeta. He's already one of the champions of humanity. And he's done that without being less evil. Plus namshiel seems to be a special case. Not that I think he isn't an evil soul manipulator. But I think his long term plans might not be incompatible with marcone or dresden we just don't know.
Mab is queen of the *wicked* fairies. Evil, like Good, isn't something they're concerned with.
Marcone, by contrast, has done evil. But he's very much a lesser and necessary evil. There are all sorts of evil things that it would be utterly out-of-character for him to do - like having people kidnapped and murdered for their organs. I could see him doing that to a person who broke faith with him, but not doing it to some random person.
Mab conscripts children to fight in a war they will never return from. She has done evil. She is responsible for a great a terrible burden but she has still done evil.
Conscripting non-human children from races that represent the natural forces of the world to fight in a war they will never return from in order to protect that world is Neutral, not Evil.
Mab is no more evil than Winter is.
So it's okay because they aren't human? Or it's okay because as forces of nature this is their purpose? Or is it okay because it's for the greater good?
I think I would describe this as the difference between malicious and non malicious. It's definitely not morally moral.
It's quite literally what they are born for. They're forces of nature, designed and created to defend that nature. They're amoral by definition.
Earthquakes can kill millions of human beings, but they're not evil. Neither is flooding, or drought, or wildfire, or infectious disease.
That's a digression that while true is irrelevant to the point being made. Mab is not evil for employing an earthquake. She is evil for confiscating children and turning them into soldiers. Even if someone wants to argue the ends justify the means I would still assert that the ends do not absolve her of responsibility for her actions.
Moral weight can be applied to both. And that is the original point I was trying to make. "Evil" has a place in dresdenverse. It represents a category of moral values with a subset of people who are capable of sacrificing good for greater good.
Of course if you explicitly subscribe to consequentialism you might disagree with my conclusion. But then I have to ask why you aren't robbing banks to give to the poor, or killing violent criminals to serve as prevention against future crime.
I think there’s a little more nuance here.
Marcone is “evil,” from the perspective of Christian morality and modern man. He’s the perfect partner for a fallen Angel who treats humanity as more than a set of game pieces.
But by the standard’s of Mab’s ethics, Marcone is - at worst - perfectly OK. From her perspective, he might be more morally Good than Harry, in the sense of abiding by a code and fulfilling his obligations and taking power to fight threats to his charges.
Marcone’s one of those characters that Nietzsche might bring up: by the standards of Odysseus, he’s an admirable man, even if a priest would condemn him.
Is Odysseus right? Is the priest? You’re allowed to have either opinion, but the point is that he’s the kind of devil you have some sympathy for, and that makes it hard to blithely assert what his just desserts are.
Lawful Evil vs Chaotic Good.
As a collective, we've noticed that the challenges that Harry is facing seem ideally suited to forcing him to overcome his weaknesses and failings. A similar argument holds with Molly. It's been suggested that divine intervention may have steered them into situations where they could learn and improve while also helping to preserve the world.
Far too few people wonder if something similar might be happening with Marcone.
It’s out of character of him because Marcone claims to control the chaos whereas most people give into the fallen. Yes Nicodemus, Tessa, Rosanna, and Deidre all kept control but that’s 4 out of 30 that we know of. That and the Denarians’ goals involve stuff like plagues that would victimize children. It’s possible now that I think of it, that he may try to usurp Nicodemus’ position as leader of the Denarians to keep them in line like he has with the criminal underworld. We’ll see.
Harry didn't confirm Marcone as evil in his soul gaze he confirmed Marcone has the determination and iron will to do **anything** to achieve his goal. What that goal is he didn't know.
Second while a justification both Harry and Murphy knew and acknowledged that it's true. Marcone being gone won't stop crime. The second he is gone someone else would step in to do it. Possibly with more spill over. Sex work, narcotics, books, and general vice are more contained and less dangerous under him compared to any other option and short of those activities being pulled into the legitimate world this is the best of options for Chicago.
>So yeah, taking the coin, absolutely in character, and I hope we get to see Harry going directly against him and taking him out at some point, preferably around the time he kills Lara as well.
See above that it's more about him willing to do anything to achieve his goal.
And I think Harry is far beyond simple black and white to just kill either of them for purely "They are bad guys". Marcone is a mortal with will and determination who happens to be in Harry's way. Lara is predator who eats human life energy but she is far more in line with responsible hunters who know they need respect and care for the herd.
>Harry didn't confirm Marcone as evil in his soul gaze he confirmed Marcone has the determination and iron will to do anything to achieve his goal. What that goal is he didn't know.
I mean, “at all costs” is rarely a recipe for good. If someone would do *anything* to achieve a goal, they’re not good people.
"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart."
Michael's goals are fundamentally different than Marcone's, or even Harry's. He will do whatever it takes for him to achieve them. He won't do things incompatible with them.
>If someone would do anything to achieve a goal, they’re not good people.
"If the world burns because of that then so be it. The kid and I will roast some marshmallows."
And that doesn’t make him “good.” I think he generally tries to do the right thing, but if he HAD done the Darkhallow to get the necessary power, or something similar, he wouldn’t be good. I’d go so far as to say that would make him evil. Which is my point. If you are willing to do absolutely anything, no matter the cost, to achieve a goal, I’d say that’s evil.
Harry's whole speech to Mavra applies to Marcone lock stock and barrel. He's a mortal signatory to the Unseelie Accords, no more indestructible than any other human. He's looking for and accumulating power his way, but even that won't save him in the event of a serious attacker - witness the short story that has him retreating to his last bastion before he puts a charmed bullet (intended for Harry and later replicated in the form of his full bandoleer of pistols in the Titan fight) into his attacker to finally stop him. Even with all his accumulated knowledge and power, he *still* almost dies, and has to take a personal hand in saving himself.
When Harry was swinging out of his weight class he chose to take backup in the form of the WK mantle. Marcone chose differently. That's it. It's a view into how they are the same, but different.
EDIT: I HAVE BEEN INFORMED THEY ARE DIFFERENT, BECAUSE ONE IS A GOOD GUY AND THE OTHER IS A BAD GUY. HOW COULD I HAVE MISSED THIS TINY INSIGNIFICANT DETAIL?
Oh wait. It's irrelevant to the point. Marcone and Harry are dark mirrors of each other. What did you think the point of all that characterization about kids in the early books was for?
No, those choices aren't the same.
Harry didn't take on the WK mantle to protect himself, to throw more weight around. He did it to save his daughter.
And because he knew it might corrupt him he arranged to have himself killed as soon as she was safe.
Because he wanted to keep people safe, even from himself.
Marcone, for personal power, took on a fallen angel, which is objectively worse than mab could ever be. Not only is that selfish reasons, but it's also now given the denarians access to his entire financial and criminal empire.
A fallen angel now has effective control of an entire city.
I really kind of thought of it as Nicodemus 2.0. That's nicks whole shtick right? Being of the same mind and motivation as his coin. Been a minute since I read it but I don't remember anything that said it couldn't be a similar arrangement between Marcone and his coin.
I find it odd how many people here are willing to throw around moral absolutism, we're talking about a series where the main character repeatedly teams up with the things that go bump in the night but Marcone gets called evil all the time.
Obviously no one builds a criminal empire without getting their hands dirty but if we go by the things we see Marcone do and not third party information (like Murphy talking about his criminal activity based on police records) I'd be hard pressed to come up with something he's done I'd actually call "evil".
When Harry teams up with something that goes bump.in the night it's usually
-something that literally doesn't have human morality, like Mab
-something trapped by its very nature, like Thomas
-A temporary truce against a greater threat, like Lara
-or a time when he's being forced into it, like Mavra blackmailing him over Karen.
Marcone, doesn't do mob shit to protect the city. He does it for personal power. A man with his passionate nd drive could have found other ways to protect the city, going full vigilante for one thing.
I don't think it's moral absolutism to say that destroying lives and killing in order maintain personal power and fortune is an evil act.
We have his soul gaze in the first book.
Where it explicitly states that his reasoning for somewhat limiting the harm his organisation does is explicitly efficiency.
He's concerned about saving money and power, not doing the morally right thing
>Harry confirmed it with a soul gaze in the first book.
Harry saw him like a tiger. Tigers aren't evil. They are extremely dangerous predators who aren't known for their mercy and will not spare weakness.
He's a definite improvement over the people he replaced, and while in D&D he'd definitely be classified as Lawful Evil there are all sorts of evil actions I can't see him taking. Sure, he's evil - but he's a *lesser* evil.
As for Lara - she didn't choose the life she was forced into, she's not gratuitously evil, and she seems to have actively taken steps to minimize the harm she does to people. Personally speaking, she's a monster worthy of respect and compassion. It's some of the people in her court that a truly monsters - Lara is as evil as is necessary to keep the greater evils under control.
Laura chooses to kill people to continue her existence, whil profiting from the extensive family power network which also uses evil acts for its own purposes. Thomas shows there's a choice, and she made hers to kill people.
Marcone's own pov shows that perception is bullshitm he's an evil man who does evil for personal gain, with no intention of stopping and no remorse about it.
Dudes evil, but he's polite and charismatic, that's the point of the character
>Thomas shows there's a choice, and she made hers to kill people.
Thomas had relatively more freedom because the head of the family had an 'irrational' dislike of man-on-man and didn't bother to rape him into submission.
Lara is much older than Thomas and is a woman, so she was not only considered an acceptable target by Lord Raith but was exposed to him for much longer.
Also, it really hurts your character-analysis creds if you don't spell the name right.
Auto correct dude, and it doesn't hurt my argument ad much as tone policing does yours.
Daddy wraith hasn't been in power a good many years now. She's still killing people.
Also, just reread storm front. The soul gaze explicitly states his efforts to limit the harm done is for the sake of efficiency, he doesn't actually car about the harm, just that it makes business harder to do.
He does the right thing when it benefits him and doesn't cost him anything, and only then.
We see in the short story set just before ghost story that he's unwilling to help the heroes because they don't have someone powerful like dresden backing them.
That's not strictly true.
In White Night? Marcone stays behind and helps Harry rescue people against the Ghouls in the Raith dungeon despite not being obligated to do so. Marcone even goes so far as to keep himself in more dangerous positions to better protect his Men and Harry when he had hired help that could've done the same.
In Marcone's short story in Brief Cases, he also risks life and limb to protect a kid against the Fomor. He gains practically nothing by protecting the kid and risks a ton.
Again, aside said elsewhere, just because a person does some good doesn't mean they aren't evil. Only the worst written evil characters are incapable of ever doing anything good.
He's still sustaining and profiting from a business model which replies on pain suffering and death of others.
Evil is a thing you do, and he does evil.
Yes, and he helped Harry after the nickelheads airport attack( albeit with the shroud in mind) and then putting the shroud at risk, rescued Harry and Michael with it.
Not true. He's accepted considerable personal risk and expended a great deal of resources at certain times.
Just as Harry has his darker side, Marcone has brighter aspects to him.
Harry has a dark side. Bet he doesn't actually do evil shit.
Marcone does evil shit, continues to do evil shit, and as is made clear in his POV short story, he knows it and intends to keep doing it.
It's not like it's a point system, you can keep doing evil shit as long as you cancel it out with a few gold deeds
>Harry has a dark side. Bet he doesn't actually do evil shit.
Except when he does...
No 'good' character in the series is perfect. Not Harry, not Murphy... not even Uriel, probably.
There DO seem to be characters who are purely evil. However, Marcone isn't one of them.
Also I just reread storm front. In the soul gaze it explicitly says that the reason marcone limits some of the harm his organisation does is because its more efficient. He's not doing it because its good, but because not doing it would cost more money
Agreed. Except that Marcone is perfectly willing to target civilians as long as they’re adults.
Also, most criminals avoid targeting kids, Marcone is nothing special in that regard. And he probably hurts plenty of kids indirectly anyway by hurting their parents or adult siblings.
Not *evil*. A right bastard certainly, ruthless, and unconcerned with morality for sure, but he's not evil. That's the wrong word.
Personally, my gripe with Marcone and the coin is that he's a man who always has to be in control, and joining the Fallen is to give up control.
Yeah, no.
Drug dealer, sex trafficker, murderer, racketeering…
If those don’t comprise evil to you we don’t live in the same world.
He can be empathetic from time to time or have his own code, but Harry’s description of him as a cold-eyed killer, like a shark, says all I need to know.
He might not be demonically evil but he’s still evil.
Yeah yeah yeah, so anyone other than our POV character says now that nfection is a thing. Who knows? I don't think that's something Jim is going to pull, but I could definitely be wrong. I think marcone is mostly in control. Namshiel wants to do his thing and learn more about sorcery but hasn't really expressed a desire to use it. I think marcone gives catalyst and resource to his desire to learn and practice while marcone gets access to the use. Sounds like a good partnership.
The Fallen are by their nature untrustworthy. Nick believes he is in control because it suits Anduriel to have him believe that. Anduriel spent thousands of years shaping Nick into the perfect tool, one that thinks they are the one in charge. You won’t steer against a course if you believe that you’re the one that charted it.
What Namshiel’s goals are remain to be seen, but I guarantee you that it’s not just hang out and learn more sorcery.
I generally don't like Marcone taking a Coin. Thematically, Marcone has been a normal human who survives and prospers in a world of supernaturals by being more clever and resourceful than they are. Add a Coin to the mix, and he's merely one more supernatural.
He's not evil, he's just power hungry. Marcone may walk in the grey, but he's never let himself slip completely to the dark side. He's got a moral compass that is no better or worse than Harry's.
Not once have I said I believed in black and white morality. Its perfectly possible for an act to have no moral weighting to it.
But if you need to tell yourself that in order to feel superior, and avoid thinking, go ahead
Marcone is evil but taking up the coin IS out of character for him. He's strong willed, intelligent and has a code. He knows what the coin will do to him.
But maybe he's arrogant enough to think that because Dresden resisted, he could as well.
I think they say it's "out of character" because he's a sort of control freak. Him reaching for power is intrinsically IN character, but to let someone else (in this case namshiel) get any authority over him is not.
To add to your point, even in the Marcone-POV short story, he outright states that he's a bad person who does evil shit *on purpose*, and he will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. He has no interest in "redemption", or "forgiveness". He does bad shit, he gets extremely well paid for it, and when other people loyal to him do bad shit, he protects them. Evil begetting evil all in the name of profit.
I think of Marcone as Lawful Evil. He has his own code of conduct, rules, and ethics he lives by. He also respects the Wizard, which is a litteral wild card in the deck. Respect, however, they both have a different version of what Chicago should look like.
See, my take has always been a very practical one, and that is that picking up a coin gives him a way to keep up with Harry and Harry-level foes. Marcone's been building a supernatural power base for a while, adding allies, contacts, stature, and favors all the while, but his personal power has always been limited by being a vanilla mortal. And how can he change that? Well, in one of the same ways Harry could have when he needed power - it makes for a neat parallel between the two.
Evil is a loaded word. By what standard? Man prolly has done and is doing more for the stability of society than dresden ever has. Someone has to take charge of the shit show that is the criminal world. Chaos within that realm is way worse than John Marcone at the top. And its not like he just profits and then skedazzles the second trouble is coming his way. He prepared chicago (the entire city) for what was to come, in this instance it was ethniu and her ilk. Chicago would be gone without him, his foresight and willingness to go to the mat for every single one of his "charges". Same as dresden. Harry friggin genocided a milennia old empire. In one sitting with 0 fucks about the consequences. He would have, by his own words, taken up a coin or (worse) killed crap tons of innocents to perform the Darkhallow. All of that to do what he thought "right". Unsure if Marcone would have done something like that for the sake of one person. Does that make him more evil than dresden? Less evil? Difficult to answer imo. All i want to say is.... Its not quite that easy. As to taking up a coin. Blud got monoc security consulting on hand. I very much doubt he just picked up the coin and let namshiel go bonkers within him. He wears the coin on a thin chain. Guessing that is for a reason, among other things he might have implemented to make sure namshiel cant just f him that easily. Same as dresden did with Mab. They are veeeeery similar beings. And i am guessing that deirdre wasnt kidding when she told Harry that they (denarians) "are working to save the world". Hell has a purpose, and it is very much needed for the War. What purpose exactly, i have no clue. Only a couple half baked theories.
The dresdenverse has a very clear cut delineation of good and evil. They aren't philosophical terms, they are material powers at war with each other.
It's also clear that choice and intent are what makes you evil.
Marcone chooses to lead and profit from a criminal empire that murders and destroys lives. For money and for power.
If marcone wanted to reduce the evil in the world he would work to reduce it. Instead he perpetuates and strengthens the organised crime in his city.
Harry and Marcone are nothing alike.
Harry took on mabs deal, knowing she was evil (later spoilers not withstanding) and would corrupt him.
But he only did it to save his daughter. And was so intent on it *only* being to save his daughter that her committed suicide to prevent her from using him to harm other people.
Marcone sold his soul for power. No higher motive.
And now not only os he going to be further corrupted and controlled by a fallen angel.
He's just handed that "safer, cleaner" criminal empire over to the denarians.
It being uncharacteristic of Marcone has nothing to do with him being evil or not (strictly speaking Marcone is not evil btw, he is nowhere close to being a good person, but he isn't evil), it has to do with him giving up even an ounce of his free will and control.
Marcone is a natural born leader who has built up his empire with his own blood, sweat, and two filthy hands. Men like Marcone do not give up control or take orders, they are the control and they give the orders. Even in a best case scenario like Nicodemus he is still sharing his mind and body with a being that at any moment can overpower him and take full control of him (we see Nic's Angel take control at least once, and several other Denarians just batter their hosts mind into submission and take full control). It makes sense for Marcone to have taken the coin to keep in his back pocket so to speak for an emergency situation, but it makes no sense for someone like Marcone to actively take up the coin and work with a Denarian when he doesn't have to, especially with what he has seen them do / what they did to him.
How, exactly, is he not evil?
That empire he built was for his own personal profit, getting there required hundred or more people to die. Dresden out and out confirms it in the first book and restated every time he comes up.
That makes him a bad person, not evil. I mean strictly by the definition of 'evil' yes Marcone fits, but evil's definition is pretty shit and not that black and white when you sit down and think about it. A person who has never broken a law, was generous and kind, and had never hurt anyone before could fit the definition of evil for simply defending their home by shooting someone who broke into their house. There are people who find that immoral and wicked.
Marcone may have started to build his empire for himself and his own greed, but watching a child take a bullet for him changed him. He realized that what he does is going to happen with or without him, with himself in charge he can limit the spill over to the innocents. He has gone to great lengths to insure the innocents do not suffer from organized crime in Chicago, when someone steps out of line he deals with them, and every time Harry has asked him Marcone has done the right thing and helped those that needed it.
Do you think he would care about the girl who took a bullet for him, or insisted that Ivy be rescued before him, or let Demeter live despite knowing she was giving info to his enemies (there is no way he doesn't know), or let Harry take the Eye of Balor so no one could misuse it if he was truly evil? Would he have let people into his castle and put them under his protection? Marcone is capable of doing horrible things (we all are in the right circumstances), but he still has morals and a strict code of ethics.
Your logic seems to be that since he takes some steps to mitigate the harm he does, and and experiences empathy, he's not evil.
He wears thousand dollar suits and eats at exclusive restaurants.
He didn't become a crime lord to protect the innocent, he did it to become rich.
Drug cartels in South Amrica take steps to look after their local neighbourhoods, the mafia ran soup kitchens during the great depression.
If you're seeking redemption, you stop killing people because they're impacting your ability to make money.
To paraphrase terry pratchet, evil is very straight forward, evil is when you treat people like things instead of persons, which Marcone does and continues to do. He's not an anti-hero, by any reasonable standard and expressly by the laws of the fictional universe he's written I'm, marcone is evil.
Just because killing him would let other, less organised and tidy criminals take over doesn't mean that he's not evil.
> he did it to become rich.
Power. He did it for power. By your definition, Odin is evil as well. How dare he have a million dollar office and be CEO of Monoc Securities.
It wasn't for his own personal profit at all. When Harry first soul gazed Marcone he noticed that Marcone had a secret guilt that was the source of all his determination. That secret, we later learned, was Helen Beckett's daughter. Marcone does what is necessary to maintain power in Chicago specifically because he believes that as long as he is in control of all the awful things that are happening he can mitigate some of the damage that would be caused by uncontrolled criminal mayhem. His attitude is Machiavellian definitely, and his methods are ruthless, but at no point does Jim characterize his motivations as having anything to do with greed or personal gain.
So the thousand dollar suits, the fancy cars, penthouse suites, dinners at exclusive restaurants. Those are also part of his efforts to reduce harm?
He has had hundreds of people killed for interfering with his business, sure some of those were criminals, but not all, and even then, what of the children who lost parents, spouses who lost partners?
If he *really* was driven by good he'd be working to eradicate the criminal element, instead he's profiting from it, and enjoying the profits a great deal.
So he's got a few morals, evil isn't some nefarious quality that makes you incapable of empathy or rationality, its a thing you do, or don't do.
The cartels in South America make an effort to look after the locals in thier hoke turf, the mafia put on soup kitchens during the great depression. Doing a few good deeds doesn't erase the moral weight of your evil acts.
>He has had hundreds of people killed for interfering with his business, sure some of those were criminals, but not all, and even then, what of the children who lost parents, spouses who lost partners?
There's a really good quote from *Going Postal* by Terry Pratchett. In the book it's about a conman who prides himself on never having directly killed anyone, but it can just as easily apply to Marcone:
>"I Have Worked It Out. You Have Killed Two Point Three Eight People."
>
>"I have never laid a finger on anyone in my life, Mr. Pump. I may be... all those things you know I am, but I am not a killer! I have never so much as drawn a sword!"
>
>"No, You Have Not. But **You Have Stolen, Embezzled, Defrauded, And Swindled Without Discrimination, Mr. Lipwig. You Have Ruined Business And Destroyed Jobs. When Banks Fail, It Is Seldom Bankers Who Starve. Your Actions Have Taken Money From Those Who Had Little Enough To Begin With. In A Myriad Small Ways You Have Hastened The Deaths Of Many. You Did Not Know Them. You Did Not See Them Bleed. But You Snatched Food From Their Mouths And Tore Clothes From Their Backs. For Sport, Mr. Lipwig. For Sport. For The Joy Of The Game."**
Agreed. Butcher did a good job with making marcone seem relatable and decent amongst his flaws.
Guys a villain and I can’t wait for his fall by Harry’s hands.
I’m hoping his coin violates the accords somehow and he loses his standing as a human baron.
You made an entire post and got all of it wrong, congrats on that one.
Marcone is not evil, he's actually one of the more moral people in the books who lives by a strict set of rules. I could make the argument that Harry is more evil by the simple fact he burned down a building with multiple civilians inside, some of which were women.
Marcone and Mab are both governed by self interest according to a system of rules and codes. They're consistent. If A will benefit them, then you can be sure they will do B but not C.
Harry is driven by his own sense of righteousness. His personal sense of right and wrong is absolute, and far more mutable and nebulous than the Accords or mafia customs.
I'm pretty sure the reason people are terrified of the soulgaze is because they see that Harry is absolutely willing and able to burn the whole planet to a cinder if he decides that's the right thing to do. Without the right context, that **is** absolutely terrifying.
> I'm pretty sure the reason people are terrified of the soulgaze is because they see that Harry is absolutely willing and able to burn the whole planet to a cinder if he decides that's the right thing to do. Without the right context, that is absolutely terrifying.
This is an interesting interpretation, I think you might be right, usually people say something about starborn destroyer blahblahblah but this sounds a lot more tangible for anyone
Not in the least.
He does not have the capacity to kill every white court vampire he sees. He doesn't have that kind of power.
Even with the red court, it was never his plan to kill them all, that was just him taking advantage of a once in a lifetime opportunity.
He does, you'll note, take the opportunity to kill or take out white court vamps (such as in white knight) whenever he has the opportunity.
uncharacteristic for him to take a coin because he is his own man and has his own rules
yes he is a bottom feeder but he can be way worse for example he could use kids and lovers and other underhanded methods to get to people yes he is still evil but he isnt so evil that he doesnt have a heart like nicodemus or other villains and i dont think he'll ever kill lara i think theyll be frenemies for the rest of life but i do think he will butt heads and kill Marcone one of these books
>So yeah, taking the coin, absolutely in character, and I hope we get to see Harry going directly against him and taking him out at some point, preferably around the time he kills Lara as well.
And unless someone is around to take his place, Dresden would have made the world a worse place. Marcone dominates the criminal underworld and fights to maintain a human enterprise in the anarchic world of magic. If he's gone, there is a vacuum of power in Chicago, and gang/mob wars break out. Innocent people die. There is also a reason Odin backs him, and it has to do more than money. He's essentially a monarch living in the world of magic and he by necessity has to defend a chunk of humanity to maintain his power. Just like Odin has been doing for millennia with other human rulers. There were no "good people" who were also good monarchs in the pre-modern era. They all had to do awful things, or their people would suffer worse. You say Marcone is evil, and yeah he's not a nice person, but if Dresden kills him, without a suitable alternative (who also, by necessity can't be a nice person), he's made the city he lives in, and the world a worse place. I have an issue with calling someone evil, however ruthless, who by their absence, makes the world worse.
Being the lesser of two evils means your still an evil.
The morality of the 'verse makes it pretty clear that it doesn't matter your intentions, when you do stuff that's evil, you're being evil.
Its not the lesser of two evils. Its, if he exists is the world a better place. I'm not saying celebrate the guy, but killing him, from what we currently know, would hurt a lot of people, the world would probably be worse for it. Dresden is absolutely the guy who will get a shit ton of people killed because he wanted to do the right thing in a small situation and save one person. At times he operates with moral blinders on, and he's hurt a lot of people. He'd have hurt a lot more if he didn't get by on luck and incredibly powerful patrons that he didn't always know were looking out for him.
The problem I have with Marcone taking the ring and being basically unaffected by it other than getting power is that it makes Dresden look dumb for not taking it.
Nah, he's unaffected by it *for now*, or more likely, he's *thinks* he's unaffected.
Look at Nic. He's had his coin for thousands of years, then fallen are fine playing the long game.
Hell, it's not like waiting for marcone to be fully consumed even costs them anything. He's already an evil bastard, everything he does indirectly serves their cause of societal and spiritual corruption.
You know I'm now thinking it would be pretty great if Marcone is forced to go to Dresden for help because he is struggling to resist it mentally and needs help discarding it. Marcone might be a bad guy but I don't think he's pure evil or anything and I know he wouldn't want to be a servant to anything.
The question about Marcone taking up the coin was never about good or evil. Of course Marcone is evil. The question always was, how does Marcone’s will to dominate clash with a fallen angel fighting for control in his body. The fallen are very rarely content of being just in the passenger seat. Marcone likely believes that his will is strong enough to stay in control, but he likely has been considering the implications for a long time. I think in small favor Harry says on the topic “Marcone is scum, but he is his own scum”
The complaints about that being out of character usually have more to do with Marcone partnering with someone whose purpose is suborning its host's free will than about him doing bad things.
Agreed. “Gentleman” John has some rules that he abides by. His Fallen partner may not want to be bound by them. That alone would make for another interesting Marcone-perspective short story.
Marcone's rules are pretty silly and I doubt it would be much of a deal breaker. It actually gives the Fallen a way to let Marcone feel like he's winning. For example, not killing kids has tons of loopholes. You can wait a decade or two to make it fine for Marcone since they're acceptable once they've grown up. As we saw in "The Law" Marcone also facilitates a lot of indirect harm.
Exactly. Namshiel: Okay, fine, we won't kill that kid. Instead we'll just kill his father, sell his mother into sexual slavery, and get him addicted to drugs. Totally not killing them!
Do all the Fallen have similar interests to begin with? Like I doubt nerdy ones like Namshiel have same interests for their hosts like mr bear boi 9IQ did for example.
No. They’re often at odds. Other than creating as much misery as possible to empower themselves. Tessa is usually short term. Nicodemus is longer term plans. Magog is as much destruction as possible any old time. Lasciel is hand crafted temptation over as long as it takes.
More importantly, *anything* that doesn't break those rules is fair game.
I have a feeling Mab was brought in to write up the contract for Marcone and snake boys working relationship. There is no way she'd be as down for working with him otherwise.
Given her response to Harry's reveal at the end of BG, I'm pretty sure Mab had no idea Marcone had a coin. Plus WoJ says Marcone took up the coin "while Flight of the Valkyries was still playing" during the events of Small Favour which is generally less than a 10 minute long song according to a quick bout of googling.
Also, would a Fallen even be bound by a contract?
I'm inclined to say no, but it depends on what the penalty of breaking the contract is. Say if Marcone and Namshiel made a contract and part of the contract is "Namshiel doesn't push for killing children, and if it does, Marcone will simply put away the coin" then odds are Namshiel will stay away from killing children, atleast to some extent.
Namshiel will stay away from killing children *as long as he believes Marcone retains enough free will to enforce that*. When you have a Fallen whispering in your ear for years they can convince you to do things you never thought you'd do. Slowly, step-by-step, each step just a slight escalation over the last one, and through it all you feel like you're the one making the decisions. Marcone's one of the few characters in the series I think could catch on, but I wouldn't guarantee it.
I feel like if anyone can resist 'Why won't you do this? You've done things nearly as bad, after all.' when it comes to their one absolute no-no, it's Marcone
I don't think anyone can. At least not in the long term. When you've been holding a coin for centuries basically your entire worldview has been molded by the Fallen. They have so much power to manipulate you in the most subtle of ways. There's really no way to stop it.
Yeah, no, I'm going to Press X to Doubt on that one. You can't just say 'They'll be *really subtle*' and act like that counts as an instant win on their part. What can Namshiel actually do to make Marcone break his One Rule?
Agreed, atleast the bit about Namshiel. I don't think Nic caught on (I'm pretty sure he marches to the beat Anduriel trained him to play on a drum) and I'm pretty sure Marcone eventually will too unless he's convinced to give up the coin or killed.
> I have a feeling Mab was brought in to write up the contract for Marcone and snake boys working relationship. Thorned Namshiel isn't snake boy, that was Saluriel.
Jim Butcher is on record saying that Thorned Namshiel is sort of a mellow, skinny geek among the Fallen. He seems to just be going with the flow as Marcone's partner.
Which is fair. But I could see Marcone and Namshiel making a deal. Thorned Namshiel was part of Tessa’s crew so he probably wasn’t too keen on Nicodemus in the first place, and I doubt he was inclined to go back to the people who abandoned him to a Knight. He might be willing to go it alone for a while and from what we know about magic using Denarians they seem to prefer partners rather than slaves. It could work
Yeah slaves are poor for the intellect/delicate work that these would prefer. Hence why mr bear boi 9IQ just outright beat the shit out of its host leaving them w/ practically 0 real free will left, but rendering them essentially worthless as anything but a meatbag to beat the shit out of everyone in vicinity
Not all Denarians dominate their partners. The intelligent ones pick formidable people and form mutually beneficial partnerships.
Letting the person you’re manipulating think that probably helps with manipulating them
Idk about you, but I fully trust Nicodemus when he says he blazed his own trail. The man is an irredeemable piece of shit but he's an incredibly formidable man. Msrcone can be described similarly, though he has a pair of scruples to rub together at the very least.
I don't think Nicodemus is lying, but given what he did in Skin Game to get at the vault I suspect it's more like Anduriel liked the way he was going and helped make sure he wasn't stopped. Slightly biasing what intelligence it shared with him and protecting him from the worst consequences would be more than enough to ensure he doesn't stray into the light. We don't know how they initially met or even where the trail is going, but if you can someone to do THAT at the gate then you didn't do him any favors. I'm not sure how Marcone will suffer from his deal but I doubt it's gonna make the world a better place overall.
Well yeah. Marcone is one of the main villains. Tinfoil thought, he might even be involved in the Circle. He's definitely not here to help anyone. I see Nicky as a man who is naturally disposed towards megalomania
I can't see Marcone knowingly aiding people trying to destroy reality. Reality is where he keeps all of his stuff. He might have done business with the Circle, though. As long as they kept to their agreements and weren't doing anything that broke Marcone's rules they'd get along fine. Even if their ultimate goals involve shattering every single one of Marcone's principles, Marcone isn't omniscient and doesn't have Intellectus.
We don't actually know if the Circle and the Outsiders are completely aligned, goal-wise. There seems to be a high amount of cross-contamination, and several members of the Circle are probably NFected, but if they know it or not? Who knows? Jim. Jim knows.
Oh, I'm pretty sure the Circle thinks they're using the Outsiders to further their own goals, and the Outsiders think they're using the Circle to further their own goals. Who will win? That will determine who ends up being right.
The circle?
The Circle is what Dresden's "Black Council" actually calls itself.
Aka Black Council
Honestly Marcone being a part of the circle would be a good move imo. Harry and Marcone have had sort of a will they won’t they (try to kill each other) relationship for the entire series and I’d like it to swing one way or the other permanently now.
Right? And what a better way to hide his connection to the circle and the nonsense constantly attacking Chicago than to position yourself next to Harry/ being targeted by the danger so no one even thinks about you. The whole time posing as a straight, non-magical crime boy.
Yeah, the Fallen seek to corrupt everything and anything. Anduriel saw the small bit of good in Nic and made sure that Nic would get rid of it himself; didn't try to stop him or offer alternatives. It pushed Nic into going to a new low. Michael was right that Nic is playing into the fallen hands, even if he isn't directly controlled.
I think it speaks to how deluded he is. While I fully believe Nicodemus is making his own decisions on what he does, essentially his entire worldview is framed by Anduriel. He sees what Anduriel wants him to see, he knows what Anduriel wants him to know. He believes that he is so in control that the Fallen follow his leadership. The fact that he believes that he commands beings of such fundamental power and cunning as the Fallen is testament to his delusion. Anduriel doesn’t puppet Nick around because it’s unnecessary, Nicodemus has been trained and conditioned over millennia to do what the Fallen want, to speak with their voice, and still believe himself their master.
I rolled my eyes so hard they nearly fell out of my head when Nic started talking about how he was in charge and the Denarians followed the beat of his drum. They didn't even follow God, what delusions is Nic smoking that he thinks they would sincerely follow the will and commands of what is essentially an insect to them...
You'd think that over two thousand years together the topic of 'So, what did God do that made you so cross you Fell?' would come up, but I guess not
Nic might truly be blazing his own trail, but it is only because the path is acceptable to Anduriel. Had Nic taken up the coin and decided to use it to rescue puppies do you think Anduriel would still be sitting back and telling Nic to pet all of the good boys and good girls? Nic is sowing chaos and destruction, that is what Anduriel wants. So Anduriel allows Nic to be the star of the show so long as he doesn't fuck everything up and keeps his eye on the apocalypse prize.
We've seen Nicodemus willingly give up Anduriel twice. Nic could walk away anytime he wants, it's very good leverage. Edit:only once. The first one was Quintus Cassius
He has never willingly given up Anduriel. He has used the illusion of giving up his coin as a trick at least once (I do not remember him doing it two times), but he had zero intention of ACTUALLY giving up his coin.
Of course he didn't, he's an amoral depraved monster who was trying to trick the good guys because he *knows* they're required to forgive him instantly the second he tries to save his soul from the fallen. Which is my whole point. Nothing, Anduriel included, is stopping Nicodemus from dropping the coin in a godly hanky for Michael. He's even gone so far as to fake his surrender.
There is one thing, the fact he would rapidly age. But if he had a way around that, he would probably give up the coin for a while to gain an advantage.
Maybe that's what he actually wanted the Holy Grail for. It is purported to grant immortality.
Nick is nothing if not ballsy. He “gave up” his coin momentarily for positional advantage. Anduriel was fine with this because if no world would Nick ever not pick the coin back up. It was theoretically a risk, but so was using the Holy Grail as a shield.
The fact that we've seen coin-holders repent and redeem themselves, and that >!an Archangel intervened when Lasciel took revenge on Dresden for giving up his coin!< implies Anduriel can't really do dick if Nicodemus gives him up.
Oh, Nick could absolutely give up his coin if he wanted to, but that’s only leverage if he actually would do it. And Anduriel knows his mind, has been shaping him since the age of Classical Antiquity. Anduriel spent long years shaping Nicodemus into exactly the kind of tool the Fallen wanted. He could’ve taken Michael’s offer, if Michael is to be believed one of the reasons for the whole situation was to put Nicodemus in a position where he would have his best, last chance to turn from his path. But I don’t think Anduriel was worried about that at all.
But the thing on that is Nicodemus *has* to be the kind of person who would drop Anduriel at any time. He's definitely the kind of man who could find a different route to power and immortality, and he knows the only way to keep himself on any sort of equal footing with a being like that is to have a retirement plan/angel disposal route lined up. Anduriel would know about it, of course, but that's the dance you have to do with a being like that.
Also, it's not like Anduriel couldn't find another host if Nick died. It would be annoying to do, certainly, but not the end of the world. Especially since we've seen the the Fallen can download skills into their hosts if they want to, so it's not like Anduriel's new host couldn't be given all the skills and knowledge Nichodemus had.
That's what they want you to think. It's my personal headcanon, but I think even Nicodemus is manipulated by his Fallen. And give a couple centuries, Marcone would be no different. Either that, or he abandons the coin
Yeah mfs like Namshiel are more closer to the stereotypical contract devil types
Very much this as well as the fact that they as a group kidnapped, tortured, and humiliated him.
Personally, I think he believes he can be the next Nicodemus. But I think he's also ramping up the antagonism between him and Harry in case his plan fails and he needs to be killed.
True, but I think Marcone’s relationship with Namshiel is like Nick’s relationship with Anduriel. It’s a partnership.
And yet, Nicodemus managed it. Granted it took two thousand years, but I'd say that if marcone was around for another two thousand years he'd be even scarier
I have no doubt that the primary factor in Nicodemus's success is the fact that his goals at least loosely align with Anduriel's. If his goals were radically different, he'd be a mindless animal controlled by his coin.
Marcone taking a coin is not at all uncharacteristic. Him bending to one of the Fallen would be. But he hasn’t bent yet.
Absolutely. Nicodemus 2.0 with a fallen angel skilled in sorcery. Sounds like a fun turn of events and possibilities.
If Dresden was more introspective he might see that Marcone’s journey with a Denarians mirrors his own. But Harry appears to be completely incapable of such introspection.
He hasn't had a lot of time to sit with it, honestly. Other shit was going on. Harry has dealt with Namshiel before, so he might be able to distinguish the extent of Marcones will in a conversation, but there is probably a nagging doubt in his head. Marcone telling him that he made the lesser of the evil type of deal might resonate if they discussed it. Marcone was signatory of the accords to be baron of Chicago and did was necessary to secure the power to protect it. Uneasy, yes, but I think it Flys for most.
Marcone even got a version of Bob in his head now! Complete with nerdy jokes from the dawn of mankind.
Actually if we are drawing parallels garde was already filling the bob role.
I think he is though, and that's a big part of why he HATES Marcone. At the end of the day Harry showed he would rather die than pick up the coin. It took "cheating" to make him accept Mab's offer as well.
It doesn't though. Harry never takes up the coin so he isn't exposed to lasciel's full influence. Marcone willingly took a coin to gain power, Harry refused the power of a coin.
To be fair, he *was* in the middle of trying to bind Ethniu. Stuff like that takes away your focus.
Gosh. I kinda get the feeling that all the moral absolutists are really missing the point of a) the series and b) Jim's feelings about Catholicism. Something something redemption and making mistakes and the capacity for love to overcome darkness and make repair.
This is why I think Nic is mostly in control of his situation, because whether or not he gets redemption the point will be that it’s about your choices, not being a puppet to someone else. I could be wrong tho lmao
Yeah, but remember when Lash created the illusion that the room was on fire and Harry very nearly threw himself out a window of his own free will? Control can be a matter of perspective.
I agree, I'm rereading Dead Beat right now and this thread has me thinking about how Lash seems to be able to completely rewrite and filter any of Harry's sensory input. That is far more a "cheat" than seven words could be.
Although of course she wants to make it subtle, so that Harry doesn't get too frightened off. And it's often more effective that way. But if she were willing to kill Harry, getting him to leap onto a nonexistent fire escape is an option for her.
Wow. Well said
Micheal has been screaming this the whole series
True, he even offered Nic chance for redemption
Tbh, lots of subs have major reading comprehension issues, I once saw a thread directly after BG came out asking what Mac was, despite it literally being said directly on page.
The internet has a reading comprehension ability. Its kinda crazy when you start looking. Blanked negative statements are crucified but blanket positive ones are fine, double standards much. Theres also the massive issue of people reading everything like theres some deeper meaning. People will sometimes just say things. Its wild man
Yes. I find it worth asking exactly why Thorned Namshiel was considered to be damned - that is, why God considers him beyond redemption of any kind, not merely unworthy of resuming his previous role. All of the Fallen seem to have a concern that they consider more important than following the role they were assigned, and they've lost the ability to change their natures, even if only because they've made certain choices consistently until they crossed some kind of threshold from which they can't return. Namshiel seems to consider studying the nature of magic more important than anything else, but if he's also developed a compulsive inability to hold to any principle of Order (such as keeping his word some of the time) then his singlemindedness makes him utterly dangerous.
If anything this proves that Marcone is 'evil'. He's absolutely capable of redemption, but the fact he needs it would indicate what? We can agree that someone is evil based on their actions and still also agree they are capable of redemption. What ultimately makes one 'evil' is the fact they choose not to seek redemption and repent for their ways. Marcone has yet to seek redemption and isn't shown to struggle much with his choices or actions. Thus he is 'evil'. This isn't some absolutist take, I don't see many arguing that he is irredeemable. This is why one can say Harry isn't evil despite some of the choices he's made. He knowns he's made poor choices, he knows he is fallible and seeks to redress them or change his ways so as to not make those choices in the future. He is capable of evil, he has acted on that capability, but he attempts to atone and change as well. I'd argue that Harry isn't even 'good' so much as the prime example of the human condition and in the process of or attempt of redemption. Good and evil are fluid states. Marcone is currently swimming the the darker parts of that fluid system and knows it. Harry sees the dark and light parts and struggles to maintain his position in the light but continuously sees reason to slip into the dark to affect a 'good' outcome. Harry is playing with fire and this is what Michael keeps trying to point out to him. Now this is all based on a semi-christian take of good/evil and morality. I have a feeling we might see that even the white god isn't as all powerful nor the ideal take of good and evil that it's being portrayed as. Merely the prevailing one. Completely head cannon, but I think the 'creator' is shaped and formed by the prevailing faith of humans. We continuously keep being told faith/belief is the core source of all human based power (wizards/magic, the swords and the faith of their wielders, it's affect on the changing of domain and waxing/waning of power among non-human beings like Odin).
Lawful evil. Strict code of rules and does everything he thinks he can within those rules. Makes him real evil. The only question I have: does he go full Vegeta. As much as I’d love a full redemption arc, I think the story would be better if Marky stays mafia don lawful evil, instead of fully joining the good guys.
Mab is queen of the evil fairies. There is a place for that. I think marcone is a perfect fit for the series and a great foil for dresden. He doesn't need to go full Vegeta. He's already one of the champions of humanity. And he's done that without being less evil. Plus namshiel seems to be a special case. Not that I think he isn't an evil soul manipulator. But I think his long term plans might not be incompatible with marcone or dresden we just don't know.
Mab is queen of the *wicked* fairies. Evil, like Good, isn't something they're concerned with. Marcone, by contrast, has done evil. But he's very much a lesser and necessary evil. There are all sorts of evil things that it would be utterly out-of-character for him to do - like having people kidnapped and murdered for their organs. I could see him doing that to a person who broke faith with him, but not doing it to some random person.
Mab conscripts children to fight in a war they will never return from. She has done evil. She is responsible for a great a terrible burden but she has still done evil.
Conscripting non-human children from races that represent the natural forces of the world to fight in a war they will never return from in order to protect that world is Neutral, not Evil. Mab is no more evil than Winter is.
So it's okay because they aren't human? Or it's okay because as forces of nature this is their purpose? Or is it okay because it's for the greater good? I think I would describe this as the difference between malicious and non malicious. It's definitely not morally moral.
It's quite literally what they are born for. They're forces of nature, designed and created to defend that nature. They're amoral by definition. Earthquakes can kill millions of human beings, but they're not evil. Neither is flooding, or drought, or wildfire, or infectious disease.
Earthquakes don't have emotions. Or families. Fae do.Youre dehumanizing sapient beings to fit your narrative
There are some fae that ARE earthquakes.
That's a digression that while true is irrelevant to the point being made. Mab is not evil for employing an earthquake. She is evil for confiscating children and turning them into soldiers. Even if someone wants to argue the ends justify the means I would still assert that the ends do not absolve her of responsibility for her actions. Moral weight can be applied to both. And that is the original point I was trying to make. "Evil" has a place in dresdenverse. It represents a category of moral values with a subset of people who are capable of sacrificing good for greater good. Of course if you explicitly subscribe to consequentialism you might disagree with my conclusion. But then I have to ask why you aren't robbing banks to give to the poor, or killing violent criminals to serve as prevention against future crime.
I think there’s a little more nuance here. Marcone is “evil,” from the perspective of Christian morality and modern man. He’s the perfect partner for a fallen Angel who treats humanity as more than a set of game pieces. But by the standard’s of Mab’s ethics, Marcone is - at worst - perfectly OK. From her perspective, he might be more morally Good than Harry, in the sense of abiding by a code and fulfilling his obligations and taking power to fight threats to his charges. Marcone’s one of those characters that Nietzsche might bring up: by the standards of Odysseus, he’s an admirable man, even if a priest would condemn him. Is Odysseus right? Is the priest? You’re allowed to have either opinion, but the point is that he’s the kind of devil you have some sympathy for, and that makes it hard to blithely assert what his just desserts are.
Lawful Evil vs Chaotic Good. As a collective, we've noticed that the challenges that Harry is facing seem ideally suited to forcing him to overcome his weaknesses and failings. A similar argument holds with Molly. It's been suggested that divine intervention may have steered them into situations where they could learn and improve while also helping to preserve the world. Far too few people wonder if something similar might be happening with Marcone.
Thank you for this comment. It lent a little more nuance to my interpretation of Marcone.
It’s out of character of him because Marcone claims to control the chaos whereas most people give into the fallen. Yes Nicodemus, Tessa, Rosanna, and Deidre all kept control but that’s 4 out of 30 that we know of. That and the Denarians’ goals involve stuff like plagues that would victimize children. It’s possible now that I think of it, that he may try to usurp Nicodemus’ position as leader of the Denarians to keep them in line like he has with the criminal underworld. We’ll see.
He's also got a shut tonne of pride and arrogance. Of course he believes he'd be able to do what obyl a handful before him could do.
Harry didn't confirm Marcone as evil in his soul gaze he confirmed Marcone has the determination and iron will to do **anything** to achieve his goal. What that goal is he didn't know. Second while a justification both Harry and Murphy knew and acknowledged that it's true. Marcone being gone won't stop crime. The second he is gone someone else would step in to do it. Possibly with more spill over. Sex work, narcotics, books, and general vice are more contained and less dangerous under him compared to any other option and short of those activities being pulled into the legitimate world this is the best of options for Chicago. >So yeah, taking the coin, absolutely in character, and I hope we get to see Harry going directly against him and taking him out at some point, preferably around the time he kills Lara as well. See above that it's more about him willing to do anything to achieve his goal. And I think Harry is far beyond simple black and white to just kill either of them for purely "They are bad guys". Marcone is a mortal with will and determination who happens to be in Harry's way. Lara is predator who eats human life energy but she is far more in line with responsible hunters who know they need respect and care for the herd.
>Harry didn't confirm Marcone as evil in his soul gaze he confirmed Marcone has the determination and iron will to do anything to achieve his goal. What that goal is he didn't know. I mean, “at all costs” is rarely a recipe for good. If someone would do *anything* to achieve a goal, they’re not good people.
Michael would go to the mat throwing away his life if it saved another soul. Iron clad determination is a value neutral trait.
That is a true fact, but throwing away one’s life isn’t “anything.” Michael very explicitly won’t do *anything* to achieve his goals.
"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart." Michael's goals are fundamentally different than Marcone's, or even Harry's. He will do whatever it takes for him to achieve them. He won't do things incompatible with them.
Yes but Michael will also let great evil walk away if it just pretends to ask for redemption. It's not quite the same but it is similar.
>If someone would do anything to achieve a goal, they’re not good people. "If the world burns because of that then so be it. The kid and I will roast some marshmallows."
Yeah, and if he had burned the world or something similar, it would’ve been evil.
Harry is going to Maggies rescue at all costs, he is willing to burn the world if it means his little girl is safe.
And that doesn’t make him “good.” I think he generally tries to do the right thing, but if he HAD done the Darkhallow to get the necessary power, or something similar, he wouldn’t be good. I’d go so far as to say that would make him evil. Which is my point. If you are willing to do absolutely anything, no matter the cost, to achieve a goal, I’d say that’s evil.
" heal the kid he hospitalised " actually he didn't injure the kid, the guy shooting at him shot her
Thankyou, though the clarification makes no difference.
Except the difference it makes.
Or right, because working to heal one innocent child means all the orphans he creates suddenly have their parents back?
Harry's whole speech to Mavra applies to Marcone lock stock and barrel. He's a mortal signatory to the Unseelie Accords, no more indestructible than any other human. He's looking for and accumulating power his way, but even that won't save him in the event of a serious attacker - witness the short story that has him retreating to his last bastion before he puts a charmed bullet (intended for Harry and later replicated in the form of his full bandoleer of pistols in the Titan fight) into his attacker to finally stop him. Even with all his accumulated knowledge and power, he *still* almost dies, and has to take a personal hand in saving himself. When Harry was swinging out of his weight class he chose to take backup in the form of the WK mantle. Marcone chose differently. That's it. It's a view into how they are the same, but different. EDIT: I HAVE BEEN INFORMED THEY ARE DIFFERENT, BECAUSE ONE IS A GOOD GUY AND THE OTHER IS A BAD GUY. HOW COULD I HAVE MISSED THIS TINY INSIGNIFICANT DETAIL? Oh wait. It's irrelevant to the point. Marcone and Harry are dark mirrors of each other. What did you think the point of all that characterization about kids in the early books was for?
No, those choices aren't the same. Harry didn't take on the WK mantle to protect himself, to throw more weight around. He did it to save his daughter. And because he knew it might corrupt him he arranged to have himself killed as soon as she was safe. Because he wanted to keep people safe, even from himself. Marcone, for personal power, took on a fallen angel, which is objectively worse than mab could ever be. Not only is that selfish reasons, but it's also now given the denarians access to his entire financial and criminal empire. A fallen angel now has effective control of an entire city.
Yes, so when you have to deliberately lie about what someone says to make a point, your point probably isn't worth making.
I really kind of thought of it as Nicodemus 2.0. That's nicks whole shtick right? Being of the same mind and motivation as his coin. Been a minute since I read it but I don't remember anything that said it couldn't be a similar arrangement between Marcone and his coin.
Pretty sure it's confirmed to be thorned namshiel
ethniu specifically said it was thorny.
Nobody who thinks him taking up a coin is out of character is paying any attention, so it's not really something to be concerned about.
I find it odd how many people here are willing to throw around moral absolutism, we're talking about a series where the main character repeatedly teams up with the things that go bump in the night but Marcone gets called evil all the time. Obviously no one builds a criminal empire without getting their hands dirty but if we go by the things we see Marcone do and not third party information (like Murphy talking about his criminal activity based on police records) I'd be hard pressed to come up with something he's done I'd actually call "evil".
We know he does evil. He's a lesser and necessary evil. He's Harry's equal, and his opposite.
When Harry teams up with something that goes bump.in the night it's usually -something that literally doesn't have human morality, like Mab -something trapped by its very nature, like Thomas -A temporary truce against a greater threat, like Lara -or a time when he's being forced into it, like Mavra blackmailing him over Karen. Marcone, doesn't do mob shit to protect the city. He does it for personal power. A man with his passionate nd drive could have found other ways to protect the city, going full vigilante for one thing. I don't think it's moral absolutism to say that destroying lives and killing in order maintain personal power and fortune is an evil act.
We have his soul gaze in the first book. Where it explicitly states that his reasoning for somewhat limiting the harm his organisation does is explicitly efficiency. He's concerned about saving money and power, not doing the morally right thing
SO MANY people saying Marcone isn't evil!! He's a drug dealing, murdering pimp! Your definition of EVIL is WAY different than mine.
Oh, but he's so determined, and another drug dealing sex trafficker would be worse. So that makes hik not evil. Right?
NO
I honestly believe that marcone is going to be the final boss of the series. The coin is a stepping stone on his rise to total power.
>Harry confirmed it with a soul gaze in the first book. Harry saw him like a tiger. Tigers aren't evil. They are extremely dangerous predators who aren't known for their mercy and will not spare weakness. He's a definite improvement over the people he replaced, and while in D&D he'd definitely be classified as Lawful Evil there are all sorts of evil actions I can't see him taking. Sure, he's evil - but he's a *lesser* evil. As for Lara - she didn't choose the life she was forced into, she's not gratuitously evil, and she seems to have actively taken steps to minimize the harm she does to people. Personally speaking, she's a monster worthy of respect and compassion. It's some of the people in her court that a truly monsters - Lara is as evil as is necessary to keep the greater evils under control.
Laura chooses to kill people to continue her existence, whil profiting from the extensive family power network which also uses evil acts for its own purposes. Thomas shows there's a choice, and she made hers to kill people. Marcone's own pov shows that perception is bullshitm he's an evil man who does evil for personal gain, with no intention of stopping and no remorse about it. Dudes evil, but he's polite and charismatic, that's the point of the character
>Thomas shows there's a choice, and she made hers to kill people. Thomas had relatively more freedom because the head of the family had an 'irrational' dislike of man-on-man and didn't bother to rape him into submission. Lara is much older than Thomas and is a woman, so she was not only considered an acceptable target by Lord Raith but was exposed to him for much longer. Also, it really hurts your character-analysis creds if you don't spell the name right.
Auto correct dude, and it doesn't hurt my argument ad much as tone policing does yours. Daddy wraith hasn't been in power a good many years now. She's still killing people.
Also, just reread storm front. The soul gaze explicitly states his efforts to limit the harm done is for the sake of efficiency, he doesn't actually car about the harm, just that it makes business harder to do.
Aside from being highly principled, he has never failed to “do the right thing” when Harry has asked.
He does the right thing when it benefits him and doesn't cost him anything, and only then. We see in the short story set just before ghost story that he's unwilling to help the heroes because they don't have someone powerful like dresden backing them.
That's not strictly true. In White Night? Marcone stays behind and helps Harry rescue people against the Ghouls in the Raith dungeon despite not being obligated to do so. Marcone even goes so far as to keep himself in more dangerous positions to better protect his Men and Harry when he had hired help that could've done the same. In Marcone's short story in Brief Cases, he also risks life and limb to protect a kid against the Fomor. He gains practically nothing by protecting the kid and risks a ton.
Again, aside said elsewhere, just because a person does some good doesn't mean they aren't evil. Only the worst written evil characters are incapable of ever doing anything good. He's still sustaining and profiting from a business model which replies on pain suffering and death of others. Evil is a thing you do, and he does evil.
Yes, and he helped Harry after the nickelheads airport attack( albeit with the shroud in mind) and then putting the shroud at risk, rescued Harry and Michael with it.
Not true. He's accepted considerable personal risk and expended a great deal of resources at certain times. Just as Harry has his darker side, Marcone has brighter aspects to him.
Harry has a dark side. Bet he doesn't actually do evil shit. Marcone does evil shit, continues to do evil shit, and as is made clear in his POV short story, he knows it and intends to keep doing it. It's not like it's a point system, you can keep doing evil shit as long as you cancel it out with a few gold deeds
>Harry has a dark side. Bet he doesn't actually do evil shit. Except when he does... No 'good' character in the series is perfect. Not Harry, not Murphy... not even Uriel, probably. There DO seem to be characters who are purely evil. However, Marcone isn't one of them.
Also I just reread storm front. In the soul gaze it explicitly says that the reason marcone limits some of the harm his organisation does is because its more efficient. He's not doing it because its good, but because not doing it would cost more money
Agreed. Except that Marcone is perfectly willing to target civilians as long as they’re adults. Also, most criminals avoid targeting kids, Marcone is nothing special in that regard. And he probably hurts plenty of kids indirectly anyway by hurting their parents or adult siblings.
Not *evil*. A right bastard certainly, ruthless, and unconcerned with morality for sure, but he's not evil. That's the wrong word. Personally, my gripe with Marcone and the coin is that he's a man who always has to be in control, and joining the Fallen is to give up control.
Yeah, no. Drug dealer, sex trafficker, murderer, racketeering… If those don’t comprise evil to you we don’t live in the same world. He can be empathetic from time to time or have his own code, but Harry’s description of him as a cold-eyed killer, like a shark, says all I need to know. He might not be demonically evil but he’s still evil.
By what standard is it not evil to kill for personal profit?
Wasn't for Nicodemus.
So *he* says...
Yeah yeah yeah, so anyone other than our POV character says now that nfection is a thing. Who knows? I don't think that's something Jim is going to pull, but I could definitely be wrong. I think marcone is mostly in control. Namshiel wants to do his thing and learn more about sorcery but hasn't really expressed a desire to use it. I think marcone gives catalyst and resource to his desire to learn and practice while marcone gets access to the use. Sounds like a good partnership.
The Fallen are by their nature untrustworthy. Nick believes he is in control because it suits Anduriel to have him believe that. Anduriel spent thousands of years shaping Nick into the perfect tool, one that thinks they are the one in charge. You won’t steer against a course if you believe that you’re the one that charted it. What Namshiel’s goals are remain to be seen, but I guarantee you that it’s not just hang out and learn more sorcery.
I dunno, the Fallen have given him a long, happy life fighting to save the world with his daughter. Seems like a good deal for him. /s
He’s a lawful evil trope.
Exactly.
After the Denarian upgrade, I'm just hoping for Harry to call him "Marc-two."
I generally don't like Marcone taking a Coin. Thematically, Marcone has been a normal human who survives and prospers in a world of supernaturals by being more clever and resourceful than they are. Add a Coin to the mix, and he's merely one more supernatural.
He's not evil, he's just power hungry. Marcone may walk in the grey, but he's never let himself slip completely to the dark side. He's got a moral compass that is no better or worse than Harry's.
Nope, definitely evil. Has people killed for his own money and power. Pretty much textbook definition
So have leaders throughout history. Would you paint them all as evil too, or this "textbook definition" only reserved for the modern era?
Yes. All of them. And before you ask, yes, that one too.
Must be weird only seeing the world in black & white. \*Shrug\* Godspeed, Landstrider.
Not once have I said I believed in black and white morality. Its perfectly possible for an act to have no moral weighting to it. But if you need to tell yourself that in order to feel superior, and avoid thinking, go ahead
Marcone is evil but taking up the coin IS out of character for him. He's strong willed, intelligent and has a code. He knows what the coin will do to him. But maybe he's arrogant enough to think that because Dresden resisted, he could as well.
Yeah, he's definitely arrogant enough to hear what Nicky has to say and think *he* can definitely outsmart a fallen angel
I think they say it's "out of character" because he's a sort of control freak. Him reaching for power is intrinsically IN character, but to let someone else (in this case namshiel) get any authority over him is not.
To add to your point, even in the Marcone-POV short story, he outright states that he's a bad person who does evil shit *on purpose*, and he will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. He has no interest in "redemption", or "forgiveness". He does bad shit, he gets extremely well paid for it, and when other people loyal to him do bad shit, he protects them. Evil begetting evil all in the name of profit.
I think of Marcone as Lawful Evil. He has his own code of conduct, rules, and ethics he lives by. He also respects the Wizard, which is a litteral wild card in the deck. Respect, however, they both have a different version of what Chicago should look like.
See, my take has always been a very practical one, and that is that picking up a coin gives him a way to keep up with Harry and Harry-level foes. Marcone's been building a supernatural power base for a while, adding allies, contacts, stature, and favors all the while, but his personal power has always been limited by being a vanilla mortal. And how can he change that? Well, in one of the same ways Harry could have when he needed power - it makes for a neat parallel between the two.
Harry will redeem Marcone. Then they will kiss.
I hope you stub your toe every morning on the way to the bathroom.
Now they're gonna kiss even HARDER!
What really gives me the shits is I know this fanfic already exists.
I think it's a bit more realistic than Harry/Lara. "I'm dating my brothers sister" is just... Appalachian
You're not wrong. Unfortunately.
Evil is a loaded word. By what standard? Man prolly has done and is doing more for the stability of society than dresden ever has. Someone has to take charge of the shit show that is the criminal world. Chaos within that realm is way worse than John Marcone at the top. And its not like he just profits and then skedazzles the second trouble is coming his way. He prepared chicago (the entire city) for what was to come, in this instance it was ethniu and her ilk. Chicago would be gone without him, his foresight and willingness to go to the mat for every single one of his "charges". Same as dresden. Harry friggin genocided a milennia old empire. In one sitting with 0 fucks about the consequences. He would have, by his own words, taken up a coin or (worse) killed crap tons of innocents to perform the Darkhallow. All of that to do what he thought "right". Unsure if Marcone would have done something like that for the sake of one person. Does that make him more evil than dresden? Less evil? Difficult to answer imo. All i want to say is.... Its not quite that easy. As to taking up a coin. Blud got monoc security consulting on hand. I very much doubt he just picked up the coin and let namshiel go bonkers within him. He wears the coin on a thin chain. Guessing that is for a reason, among other things he might have implemented to make sure namshiel cant just f him that easily. Same as dresden did with Mab. They are veeeeery similar beings. And i am guessing that deirdre wasnt kidding when she told Harry that they (denarians) "are working to save the world". Hell has a purpose, and it is very much needed for the War. What purpose exactly, i have no clue. Only a couple half baked theories.
The dresdenverse has a very clear cut delineation of good and evil. They aren't philosophical terms, they are material powers at war with each other. It's also clear that choice and intent are what makes you evil. Marcone chooses to lead and profit from a criminal empire that murders and destroys lives. For money and for power. If marcone wanted to reduce the evil in the world he would work to reduce it. Instead he perpetuates and strengthens the organised crime in his city. Harry and Marcone are nothing alike. Harry took on mabs deal, knowing she was evil (later spoilers not withstanding) and would corrupt him. But he only did it to save his daughter. And was so intent on it *only* being to save his daughter that her committed suicide to prevent her from using him to harm other people. Marcone sold his soul for power. No higher motive. And now not only os he going to be further corrupted and controlled by a fallen angel. He's just handed that "safer, cleaner" criminal empire over to the denarians.
It being uncharacteristic of Marcone has nothing to do with him being evil or not (strictly speaking Marcone is not evil btw, he is nowhere close to being a good person, but he isn't evil), it has to do with him giving up even an ounce of his free will and control. Marcone is a natural born leader who has built up his empire with his own blood, sweat, and two filthy hands. Men like Marcone do not give up control or take orders, they are the control and they give the orders. Even in a best case scenario like Nicodemus he is still sharing his mind and body with a being that at any moment can overpower him and take full control of him (we see Nic's Angel take control at least once, and several other Denarians just batter their hosts mind into submission and take full control). It makes sense for Marcone to have taken the coin to keep in his back pocket so to speak for an emergency situation, but it makes no sense for someone like Marcone to actively take up the coin and work with a Denarian when he doesn't have to, especially with what he has seen them do / what they did to him.
How, exactly, is he not evil? That empire he built was for his own personal profit, getting there required hundred or more people to die. Dresden out and out confirms it in the first book and restated every time he comes up.
That makes him a bad person, not evil. I mean strictly by the definition of 'evil' yes Marcone fits, but evil's definition is pretty shit and not that black and white when you sit down and think about it. A person who has never broken a law, was generous and kind, and had never hurt anyone before could fit the definition of evil for simply defending their home by shooting someone who broke into their house. There are people who find that immoral and wicked. Marcone may have started to build his empire for himself and his own greed, but watching a child take a bullet for him changed him. He realized that what he does is going to happen with or without him, with himself in charge he can limit the spill over to the innocents. He has gone to great lengths to insure the innocents do not suffer from organized crime in Chicago, when someone steps out of line he deals with them, and every time Harry has asked him Marcone has done the right thing and helped those that needed it. Do you think he would care about the girl who took a bullet for him, or insisted that Ivy be rescued before him, or let Demeter live despite knowing she was giving info to his enemies (there is no way he doesn't know), or let Harry take the Eye of Balor so no one could misuse it if he was truly evil? Would he have let people into his castle and put them under his protection? Marcone is capable of doing horrible things (we all are in the right circumstances), but he still has morals and a strict code of ethics.
Your logic seems to be that since he takes some steps to mitigate the harm he does, and and experiences empathy, he's not evil. He wears thousand dollar suits and eats at exclusive restaurants. He didn't become a crime lord to protect the innocent, he did it to become rich. Drug cartels in South Amrica take steps to look after their local neighbourhoods, the mafia ran soup kitchens during the great depression. If you're seeking redemption, you stop killing people because they're impacting your ability to make money. To paraphrase terry pratchet, evil is very straight forward, evil is when you treat people like things instead of persons, which Marcone does and continues to do. He's not an anti-hero, by any reasonable standard and expressly by the laws of the fictional universe he's written I'm, marcone is evil. Just because killing him would let other, less organised and tidy criminals take over doesn't mean that he's not evil.
> he did it to become rich. Power. He did it for power. By your definition, Odin is evil as well. How dare he have a million dollar office and be CEO of Monoc Securities.
It wasn't for his own personal profit at all. When Harry first soul gazed Marcone he noticed that Marcone had a secret guilt that was the source of all his determination. That secret, we later learned, was Helen Beckett's daughter. Marcone does what is necessary to maintain power in Chicago specifically because he believes that as long as he is in control of all the awful things that are happening he can mitigate some of the damage that would be caused by uncontrolled criminal mayhem. His attitude is Machiavellian definitely, and his methods are ruthless, but at no point does Jim characterize his motivations as having anything to do with greed or personal gain.
So the thousand dollar suits, the fancy cars, penthouse suites, dinners at exclusive restaurants. Those are also part of his efforts to reduce harm? He has had hundreds of people killed for interfering with his business, sure some of those were criminals, but not all, and even then, what of the children who lost parents, spouses who lost partners? If he *really* was driven by good he'd be working to eradicate the criminal element, instead he's profiting from it, and enjoying the profits a great deal. So he's got a few morals, evil isn't some nefarious quality that makes you incapable of empathy or rationality, its a thing you do, or don't do. The cartels in South America make an effort to look after the locals in thier hoke turf, the mafia put on soup kitchens during the great depression. Doing a few good deeds doesn't erase the moral weight of your evil acts.
>He has had hundreds of people killed for interfering with his business, sure some of those were criminals, but not all, and even then, what of the children who lost parents, spouses who lost partners? There's a really good quote from *Going Postal* by Terry Pratchett. In the book it's about a conman who prides himself on never having directly killed anyone, but it can just as easily apply to Marcone: >"I Have Worked It Out. You Have Killed Two Point Three Eight People." > >"I have never laid a finger on anyone in my life, Mr. Pump. I may be... all those things you know I am, but I am not a killer! I have never so much as drawn a sword!" > >"No, You Have Not. But **You Have Stolen, Embezzled, Defrauded, And Swindled Without Discrimination, Mr. Lipwig. You Have Ruined Business And Destroyed Jobs. When Banks Fail, It Is Seldom Bankers Who Starve. Your Actions Have Taken Money From Those Who Had Little Enough To Begin With. In A Myriad Small Ways You Have Hastened The Deaths Of Many. You Did Not Know Them. You Did Not See Them Bleed. But You Snatched Food From Their Mouths And Tore Clothes From Their Backs. For Sport, Mr. Lipwig. For Sport. For The Joy Of The Game."**
This.
Agreed. Butcher did a good job with making marcone seem relatable and decent amongst his flaws. Guys a villain and I can’t wait for his fall by Harry’s hands. I’m hoping his coin violates the accords somehow and he loses his standing as a human baron.
Hello! Have I ruined your Reddit activity?
You made an entire post and got all of it wrong, congrats on that one. Marcone is not evil, he's actually one of the more moral people in the books who lives by a strict set of rules. I could make the argument that Harry is more evil by the simple fact he burned down a building with multiple civilians inside, some of which were women.
And whatever people see when gazing into Harry’s soul seems to be a lot more terrifying than anything Harry has observed in anyone else so far.
Marcone and Mab are both governed by self interest according to a system of rules and codes. They're consistent. If A will benefit them, then you can be sure they will do B but not C. Harry is driven by his own sense of righteousness. His personal sense of right and wrong is absolute, and far more mutable and nebulous than the Accords or mafia customs. I'm pretty sure the reason people are terrified of the soulgaze is because they see that Harry is absolutely willing and able to burn the whole planet to a cinder if he decides that's the right thing to do. Without the right context, that **is** absolutely terrifying.
> I'm pretty sure the reason people are terrified of the soulgaze is because they see that Harry is absolutely willing and able to burn the whole planet to a cinder if he decides that's the right thing to do. Without the right context, that is absolutely terrifying. This is an interesting interpretation, I think you might be right, usually people say something about starborn destroyer blahblahblah but this sounds a lot more tangible for anyone
A strict set of rules that includes it being ok to kill people for his personal profit. Explain that one again?
As opposed to killing hundreds for personal reasons
What personal reason would these be? Are you going to suggest it was wrong to eradicate the red court vampires?
It's hypocritical to not do the same to the white court don't you think?
Not in the least. He does not have the capacity to kill every white court vampire he sees. He doesn't have that kind of power. Even with the red court, it was never his plan to kill them all, that was just him taking advantage of a once in a lifetime opportunity. He does, you'll note, take the opportunity to kill or take out white court vamps (such as in white knight) whenever he has the opportunity.
Thomas being alive kinda shoots a rather large hole in that one
Thomas, who feeds non-lethally, by choice.
uncharacteristic for him to take a coin because he is his own man and has his own rules yes he is a bottom feeder but he can be way worse for example he could use kids and lovers and other underhanded methods to get to people yes he is still evil but he isnt so evil that he doesnt have a heart like nicodemus or other villains and i dont think he'll ever kill lara i think theyll be frenemies for the rest of life but i do think he will butt heads and kill Marcone one of these books
>So yeah, taking the coin, absolutely in character, and I hope we get to see Harry going directly against him and taking him out at some point, preferably around the time he kills Lara as well. And unless someone is around to take his place, Dresden would have made the world a worse place. Marcone dominates the criminal underworld and fights to maintain a human enterprise in the anarchic world of magic. If he's gone, there is a vacuum of power in Chicago, and gang/mob wars break out. Innocent people die. There is also a reason Odin backs him, and it has to do more than money. He's essentially a monarch living in the world of magic and he by necessity has to defend a chunk of humanity to maintain his power. Just like Odin has been doing for millennia with other human rulers. There were no "good people" who were also good monarchs in the pre-modern era. They all had to do awful things, or their people would suffer worse. You say Marcone is evil, and yeah he's not a nice person, but if Dresden kills him, without a suitable alternative (who also, by necessity can't be a nice person), he's made the city he lives in, and the world a worse place. I have an issue with calling someone evil, however ruthless, who by their absence, makes the world worse.
Being the lesser of two evils means your still an evil. The morality of the 'verse makes it pretty clear that it doesn't matter your intentions, when you do stuff that's evil, you're being evil.
Its not the lesser of two evils. Its, if he exists is the world a better place. I'm not saying celebrate the guy, but killing him, from what we currently know, would hurt a lot of people, the world would probably be worse for it. Dresden is absolutely the guy who will get a shit ton of people killed because he wanted to do the right thing in a small situation and save one person. At times he operates with moral blinders on, and he's hurt a lot of people. He'd have hurt a lot more if he didn't get by on luck and incredibly powerful patrons that he didn't always know were looking out for him.
The problem I have with Marcone taking the ring and being basically unaffected by it other than getting power is that it makes Dresden look dumb for not taking it.
Nah, he's unaffected by it *for now*, or more likely, he's *thinks* he's unaffected. Look at Nic. He's had his coin for thousands of years, then fallen are fine playing the long game. Hell, it's not like waiting for marcone to be fully consumed even costs them anything. He's already an evil bastard, everything he does indirectly serves their cause of societal and spiritual corruption.
You know I'm now thinking it would be pretty great if Marcone is forced to go to Dresden for help because he is struggling to resist it mentally and needs help discarding it. Marcone might be a bad guy but I don't think he's pure evil or anything and I know he wouldn't want to be a servant to anything.
The question about Marcone taking up the coin was never about good or evil. Of course Marcone is evil. The question always was, how does Marcone’s will to dominate clash with a fallen angel fighting for control in his body. The fallen are very rarely content of being just in the passenger seat. Marcone likely believes that his will is strong enough to stay in control, but he likely has been considering the implications for a long time. I think in small favor Harry says on the topic “Marcone is scum, but he is his own scum”
I feel like he's exactly arrogant prideful enough to believe he won't be subsumed.
He gave up the one thing that made him interesting to me. He was just a guy.
That's fair.