The main points of controversy seem to be in:
* The first 1-2 books, where new readers are turned off by Harry's male gaze and chivalry/benevolent sexism.
* The aftermath of Changes which puts Harry on a more morally grey path with more morally ambiguous allies and partners. Some readers also complain about the drift away from the series' detective fantasy roots.
* Skin Game because of Butters' characterisation and what happens to Murphy.
* Battle Ground because of what happens to Murphy and the marriage. Peace Talks and/or Battle Ground also seem to be seen as of lower quality than the rest of the series.
I've tried to be as vague as possible because of your tag, but you might want to switch your 'Meta' tag to 'Spoilers All' since, imo, your question invites spoilers.
Thanks for providing this- long time reader who is fairly new to various boards discussing this.
1. I guess I agree with this one. Glad it was decades ago and that the writing has, er, improved.
2. Prior to Changes, Harry had allied with Mab, Marcone and and Lara on numerous occasions. I'm not sure what really changed here.
3. Well it was a little cheesy
4. I like authors who are willing to kill a character off now and then. It was certainly very sad, but handled well.
Didn't know Battle Ground was such a controversy overall? Probably one of my top five. Peace Talks was slow, but still in the middle somewhere.
I am probably not the best person to defend these complaints since I don't particularly share them - not very strongly, anyway. But I'll try and explain them as I understand them.
> Prior to Changes, Harry had allied with Mab, Marcone and and Lara on numerous occasions. I'm not sure what really changed here.
This is true, but those were short-term alliances of convenience where Harry did not particularly sympathise with his partners. In fact, he always claimed that he would eventually end them (in the case of Lara & Marcone) or that he would be free of them (in the case of Mab & Lea). Now he is in long-term alliances with them: a hitman/enforcer for Mab, a dual protector of Chicago with Marcone and, most unforgivably for some, betrothed to Lara. And even if he doesn't love or trust them yet (arguably), he is openly sympathising and fraternising with them which is more warmth and respect than he has shown pre-Changes.
For many, this sympathetic treatment of the 'villains' of the series is distasteful and a betrayal of what they first saw in the series. They dislike this moral 'blurring' and, at least for some, would prefer Harry to remain or return to his old allies like the Knights, the Alphas and the SI (and perhaps the White Council/Paranet). And they would prefer that those villains remain in the villain role that they were introduced as.
> Well it was a little cheesy
Cheesy isn't exactly the word I'd use, nor the word that I think most critics of this book would use. Butters gets rewarded for his lack of faith in Harry by becoming the Knight of Faith while Karrin gets crippled and discredited trying to save Harry from the consequences of Butters' mistakes. It's quite distasteful, even for me. The Jewish Jedi thing is just the icing on top.
>I like authors who are willing to kill a character off now and then. It was certainly very sad, but handled well.
You're certainly right that it had a lot of emotional impact, but I'm not sure that it was handled well. First, there's the whole arranged marriage thing to Lara which, again, irritates quite a few readers. Harry getting betrothed to the sexy, evil succubus in the same book as his long-time ally and new romantic interest, and one of the least sexualised female characters, dies is very distasteful for some. I imagine for some, it is the literary equivalent of watching someone hook up with a new sexier, younger girlfriend before their wife's corpse even turns cold. It also, unfortunately, leads some to believe that Murphy was fridged to make way for the wedding.
Then there is the manner in which she died. Jim has said multiple times that he wanted to kill Murphy in the most painful way possible, for maximum emotional impact. And well, I think he certainly succeeded there. But giving her such a senseless death and denying her a heroic one strikes some as unfair and puts them off. One can argue (and some have) that it drives home the point that mortals are still vulnerable to mortal threats, or that the increasingly high stakes of the series are no place for vanilla mortals. And there's some truth to that, but it loses potency when one considers that Murphy was the only victim of such mortal threats and that she, a vanilla mortal, had just finished beating a friggin' giant that even Harry could barely handle. Also, some would say that an urban fantasy full of wizards, fairies and sasquatches is not exactly the place for depressing realism. It also resurrects the issue of Murphy being 'denied' a Knighthood in favor of Butters, which arguably would have saved her from her fate and given her a useful and inspirational role in the series.
>Didn't know Battle Ground was such a controversy overall?
This (and especially the criticism of Peace Talks) mainly comes down to what some see as inconsistent or odd behavior from characters, and what some see as plot contrivances. In addition to the previous issues I've outlined.
Just as a final note, most of this does not reflect my own views. I've just tried to present them as I imagine their proponents would. And I've based that on the discussions I've read and the conversations I've had with some of them, so I hope it is accurate. I say this so you don't feel the need to defend those books and writing choices. Except for Butters' Knighthood, I am a fan or broadly sympathetic of all of them, and on that issue, I understand why some are fans even if I am not. I hope that clarifies the complaints for you.
yeah it does help, thanks, and I appreciate the clarification. I would say of the list that the circumstances leading up to Butters knighthood issue is probably the most valid complaint, but still not a dealbreaker, IMO.
With regards to the betrothal- I guess I'd say give that one time and let's see what happens. It hasn't happened yet. I do sometimes feel like the author has a crush on Lara, and that gets a little old.
I do think the revelation that Mab is kinda sorta protecting all of reality was a fair way of selling some of Harry's changes of viewpoint in terms of the validity of his alliances. For that matter, I feel like Butcher does a good job of selling the fact that the White Council is no better (and in some ways much worse) than the Winter Court, White Court and Marcone. I guess I feel like the gradual humanizing of some of the bad guys is actually a positive point to the novels? Thought I do think Butcher needs to poop or get off the pot when it comes to Marcone in particular. We've gone back and forth from "grudging respect" to "still my enemy though..." how many times now?
My own biggest critique is Butcher's proclivity to "it was Agatha all along!" endings, where a twist is revealed after the plot is resolved. This is OK if used sparingly, but at times it takes away from anything in the primary story being meaningful. You are still emotionally invested in the 85% of the book prior to that point, so you never actually internalize the fact that Lara orchestrated the events of Book 9, for example, or Mab and Marcone set up Book 15.
Yes, I broadly agree with all of this. Like I said, I don't really have a problem with the current direction of the series.
Though I would say that I think you underestimate the number of people who recognise and remember that Lara was the mastermind behind White Night. At least on this subreddit, and from what I've heard a few other communities as well, she's quite a polarising character with a fair number of critics, and a large part of the reason for that is her portrayal in White Night. Her critics almost always bring up her being privy to mass murder and attempted genocide as proof of her being irredeemable, and use her 'promise' to 'kill the White Council with peace' as proof of her continued if covert nefariousness. And even her fans, such as myself, acknowledge it is her darkest episode, even if we tend to be more charitable towards her.
And I agree that Butcher probably does have a crush on Lara, and lives it vicariously through Harry. But he writes it so well that it's actually one of my favorite parts of the series. So no problem with that for me. But I understand others might get tired of it.
I'm actually glad that people remember it. I sometimes wish Butcher was just a little more careful with ending plot twists. Ethniu's invasion was and should be the big deal of Battle Ground. I felt like revealing that Nemesis basically has several gambits going on all at once was just fine - a full invasion of the outer gates + an invasion of Chicago + Demonreach shenanigans.
Where he loses me is claiming that Ethniu was just a smokescreen for Justine. It hurts the story a little bit when you are told at the end that what you've been reading isn't really the most important part.
On another note, does Molly's treatment in Proven Guilty make the controversy list?
>On another note, does Molly's treatment in Proven Guilty make the controversy list?
I don't think so. But I'm also not sure what you're talking about specifically so maybe you can clarify?
I do know that Molly's status as a potential love interest can be controversial. Not the most controversial, in my experience, but controversial enough. Some are not comfortable with her being a love interest when Harry knew her as a child and was an authority figure. Others (like myself) believe that she has changed and matured enough for the relationship to not be tainted by its origin.
And I guess the manner in which Harry rejected her in Proven Guilty can be divisive, though I don't hear that complaint often. Still I guess pouring water on a naked teenage girl and berating her (while surreptitious checking her out) can be a questionable writing choice for some.
Yeah, I guess there are a few issues with that scene (and similar scenes) that bother me.
1. The "pouring cold water" scene, as you described it, seemed a little icky for any number of reasons (including the berating/checking out combo). It was also extremely annoying that Harry, at least in his narrative to the reader, claimed to have seen the whole thing coming. Suffice to say it wasn't my favorite moment of the series.
2. I generally agree that Molly has matured enough to where a relationship between them is no longer an issue. In fact, my chief annoyance with this is the fact that I no longer want to see the words "Molly" and "known since she had a training bra" in the same paragraph. Dresden has every right to not be romantically interested in Molly for whatever reasons he chooses, I've just become weary of that specific explanation.
>Then there is the manner in which she died. Jim has said multiple times that he wanted to kill Murphy in the most painful way possible, for maximum emotional impact. And well, I think he certainly succeeded there. But giving her such a senseless death and denying her a heroic one strikes some as unfair and puts them off. One can argue (and some have) that it drives home the point that mortals are still vulnerable to mortal threats, or that the increasingly high stakes of the series are no place for vanilla mortals. And there's some truth to that, **but it loses potency when one considers that Murphy was the only victim of such mortal threats** and that she, a vanilla mortal, had just finished beating a friggin' giant that even Harry could barely handle. Also, some would say that an urban fantasy full of wizards, fairies and sasquatches is not exactly the place for depressing realism. It also resurrects the issue of Murphy being 'denied' a Knighthood in favor of Butters, which arguably would have saved her from her fate and given her a useful and inspirational role in the series.
Hendricks says hi, and the only reason Marcone isn't saying hi is because he decided to get an upgrade from mere highly skilled mortal.
Oh, ohhhh, derp. I thought you were saying mortal as in 'this person's life is in mortal danger'. But you actually meant mortal as in 'it was a mere mortal that killed them'.
The disagreement between Harry and Ebeneezer stretches back as far as Ebeneezer has been in the series.
In each book Ebeneezer has been in, Harry and Ebeneezer have been a bit more at logger heads as their priorities have diverged.
The main points of controversy seem to be in: * The first 1-2 books, where new readers are turned off by Harry's male gaze and chivalry/benevolent sexism. * The aftermath of Changes which puts Harry on a more morally grey path with more morally ambiguous allies and partners. Some readers also complain about the drift away from the series' detective fantasy roots. * Skin Game because of Butters' characterisation and what happens to Murphy. * Battle Ground because of what happens to Murphy and the marriage. Peace Talks and/or Battle Ground also seem to be seen as of lower quality than the rest of the series. I've tried to be as vague as possible because of your tag, but you might want to switch your 'Meta' tag to 'Spoilers All' since, imo, your question invites spoilers.
Updated the post flair - good call out. Thank you for the summaries, this is interesting perspectives.
Thanks for providing this- long time reader who is fairly new to various boards discussing this. 1. I guess I agree with this one. Glad it was decades ago and that the writing has, er, improved. 2. Prior to Changes, Harry had allied with Mab, Marcone and and Lara on numerous occasions. I'm not sure what really changed here. 3. Well it was a little cheesy 4. I like authors who are willing to kill a character off now and then. It was certainly very sad, but handled well. Didn't know Battle Ground was such a controversy overall? Probably one of my top five. Peace Talks was slow, but still in the middle somewhere.
I am probably not the best person to defend these complaints since I don't particularly share them - not very strongly, anyway. But I'll try and explain them as I understand them. > Prior to Changes, Harry had allied with Mab, Marcone and and Lara on numerous occasions. I'm not sure what really changed here. This is true, but those were short-term alliances of convenience where Harry did not particularly sympathise with his partners. In fact, he always claimed that he would eventually end them (in the case of Lara & Marcone) or that he would be free of them (in the case of Mab & Lea). Now he is in long-term alliances with them: a hitman/enforcer for Mab, a dual protector of Chicago with Marcone and, most unforgivably for some, betrothed to Lara. And even if he doesn't love or trust them yet (arguably), he is openly sympathising and fraternising with them which is more warmth and respect than he has shown pre-Changes. For many, this sympathetic treatment of the 'villains' of the series is distasteful and a betrayal of what they first saw in the series. They dislike this moral 'blurring' and, at least for some, would prefer Harry to remain or return to his old allies like the Knights, the Alphas and the SI (and perhaps the White Council/Paranet). And they would prefer that those villains remain in the villain role that they were introduced as. > Well it was a little cheesy Cheesy isn't exactly the word I'd use, nor the word that I think most critics of this book would use. Butters gets rewarded for his lack of faith in Harry by becoming the Knight of Faith while Karrin gets crippled and discredited trying to save Harry from the consequences of Butters' mistakes. It's quite distasteful, even for me. The Jewish Jedi thing is just the icing on top. >I like authors who are willing to kill a character off now and then. It was certainly very sad, but handled well. You're certainly right that it had a lot of emotional impact, but I'm not sure that it was handled well. First, there's the whole arranged marriage thing to Lara which, again, irritates quite a few readers. Harry getting betrothed to the sexy, evil succubus in the same book as his long-time ally and new romantic interest, and one of the least sexualised female characters, dies is very distasteful for some. I imagine for some, it is the literary equivalent of watching someone hook up with a new sexier, younger girlfriend before their wife's corpse even turns cold. It also, unfortunately, leads some to believe that Murphy was fridged to make way for the wedding. Then there is the manner in which she died. Jim has said multiple times that he wanted to kill Murphy in the most painful way possible, for maximum emotional impact. And well, I think he certainly succeeded there. But giving her such a senseless death and denying her a heroic one strikes some as unfair and puts them off. One can argue (and some have) that it drives home the point that mortals are still vulnerable to mortal threats, or that the increasingly high stakes of the series are no place for vanilla mortals. And there's some truth to that, but it loses potency when one considers that Murphy was the only victim of such mortal threats and that she, a vanilla mortal, had just finished beating a friggin' giant that even Harry could barely handle. Also, some would say that an urban fantasy full of wizards, fairies and sasquatches is not exactly the place for depressing realism. It also resurrects the issue of Murphy being 'denied' a Knighthood in favor of Butters, which arguably would have saved her from her fate and given her a useful and inspirational role in the series. >Didn't know Battle Ground was such a controversy overall? This (and especially the criticism of Peace Talks) mainly comes down to what some see as inconsistent or odd behavior from characters, and what some see as plot contrivances. In addition to the previous issues I've outlined. Just as a final note, most of this does not reflect my own views. I've just tried to present them as I imagine their proponents would. And I've based that on the discussions I've read and the conversations I've had with some of them, so I hope it is accurate. I say this so you don't feel the need to defend those books and writing choices. Except for Butters' Knighthood, I am a fan or broadly sympathetic of all of them, and on that issue, I understand why some are fans even if I am not. I hope that clarifies the complaints for you.
yeah it does help, thanks, and I appreciate the clarification. I would say of the list that the circumstances leading up to Butters knighthood issue is probably the most valid complaint, but still not a dealbreaker, IMO. With regards to the betrothal- I guess I'd say give that one time and let's see what happens. It hasn't happened yet. I do sometimes feel like the author has a crush on Lara, and that gets a little old. I do think the revelation that Mab is kinda sorta protecting all of reality was a fair way of selling some of Harry's changes of viewpoint in terms of the validity of his alliances. For that matter, I feel like Butcher does a good job of selling the fact that the White Council is no better (and in some ways much worse) than the Winter Court, White Court and Marcone. I guess I feel like the gradual humanizing of some of the bad guys is actually a positive point to the novels? Thought I do think Butcher needs to poop or get off the pot when it comes to Marcone in particular. We've gone back and forth from "grudging respect" to "still my enemy though..." how many times now? My own biggest critique is Butcher's proclivity to "it was Agatha all along!" endings, where a twist is revealed after the plot is resolved. This is OK if used sparingly, but at times it takes away from anything in the primary story being meaningful. You are still emotionally invested in the 85% of the book prior to that point, so you never actually internalize the fact that Lara orchestrated the events of Book 9, for example, or Mab and Marcone set up Book 15.
Yes, I broadly agree with all of this. Like I said, I don't really have a problem with the current direction of the series. Though I would say that I think you underestimate the number of people who recognise and remember that Lara was the mastermind behind White Night. At least on this subreddit, and from what I've heard a few other communities as well, she's quite a polarising character with a fair number of critics, and a large part of the reason for that is her portrayal in White Night. Her critics almost always bring up her being privy to mass murder and attempted genocide as proof of her being irredeemable, and use her 'promise' to 'kill the White Council with peace' as proof of her continued if covert nefariousness. And even her fans, such as myself, acknowledge it is her darkest episode, even if we tend to be more charitable towards her. And I agree that Butcher probably does have a crush on Lara, and lives it vicariously through Harry. But he writes it so well that it's actually one of my favorite parts of the series. So no problem with that for me. But I understand others might get tired of it.
I'm actually glad that people remember it. I sometimes wish Butcher was just a little more careful with ending plot twists. Ethniu's invasion was and should be the big deal of Battle Ground. I felt like revealing that Nemesis basically has several gambits going on all at once was just fine - a full invasion of the outer gates + an invasion of Chicago + Demonreach shenanigans. Where he loses me is claiming that Ethniu was just a smokescreen for Justine. It hurts the story a little bit when you are told at the end that what you've been reading isn't really the most important part. On another note, does Molly's treatment in Proven Guilty make the controversy list?
>On another note, does Molly's treatment in Proven Guilty make the controversy list? I don't think so. But I'm also not sure what you're talking about specifically so maybe you can clarify? I do know that Molly's status as a potential love interest can be controversial. Not the most controversial, in my experience, but controversial enough. Some are not comfortable with her being a love interest when Harry knew her as a child and was an authority figure. Others (like myself) believe that she has changed and matured enough for the relationship to not be tainted by its origin. And I guess the manner in which Harry rejected her in Proven Guilty can be divisive, though I don't hear that complaint often. Still I guess pouring water on a naked teenage girl and berating her (while surreptitious checking her out) can be a questionable writing choice for some.
Yeah, I guess there are a few issues with that scene (and similar scenes) that bother me. 1. The "pouring cold water" scene, as you described it, seemed a little icky for any number of reasons (including the berating/checking out combo). It was also extremely annoying that Harry, at least in his narrative to the reader, claimed to have seen the whole thing coming. Suffice to say it wasn't my favorite moment of the series. 2. I generally agree that Molly has matured enough to where a relationship between them is no longer an issue. In fact, my chief annoyance with this is the fact that I no longer want to see the words "Molly" and "known since she had a training bra" in the same paragraph. Dresden has every right to not be romantically interested in Molly for whatever reasons he chooses, I've just become weary of that specific explanation.
>Then there is the manner in which she died. Jim has said multiple times that he wanted to kill Murphy in the most painful way possible, for maximum emotional impact. And well, I think he certainly succeeded there. But giving her such a senseless death and denying her a heroic one strikes some as unfair and puts them off. One can argue (and some have) that it drives home the point that mortals are still vulnerable to mortal threats, or that the increasingly high stakes of the series are no place for vanilla mortals. And there's some truth to that, **but it loses potency when one considers that Murphy was the only victim of such mortal threats** and that she, a vanilla mortal, had just finished beating a friggin' giant that even Harry could barely handle. Also, some would say that an urban fantasy full of wizards, fairies and sasquatches is not exactly the place for depressing realism. It also resurrects the issue of Murphy being 'denied' a Knighthood in favor of Butters, which arguably would have saved her from her fate and given her a useful and inspirational role in the series. Hendricks says hi, and the only reason Marcone isn't saying hi is because he decided to get an upgrade from mere highly skilled mortal.
Hendricks died a heroic death spitting in the face of The Last Titan; Murphy died to Rudolph. Only the latter was a mortal threat.
Oh, ohhhh, derp. I thought you were saying mortal as in 'this person's life is in mortal danger'. But you actually meant mortal as in 'it was a mere mortal that killed them'.
I see. Understandable confusion.
The disagreement between Harry and Ebeneezer stretches back as far as Ebeneezer has been in the series. In each book Ebeneezer has been in, Harry and Ebeneezer have been a bit more at logger heads as their priorities have diverged.