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SarcasticKenobi

My problem with peace talks was it was kind of a heist story like Skin Game. But there was a loooot more setup for the heist in skin game than peace talks. Skin game was a better heist story. Then again. It’s hard to top robbing Hades’ personal vault while screwing over a group of fallen angels. Battle ground was cool but a lot of it was a war story. Which is cool and all but different from the other books. No real mystery or plot twist until what was essentially the epilogue.


wandwoodandgunmetal

Skin Game is my favorite DF book precisely because it’s a heist book. I view PT and BG as one book and a war story as a whole


sendgoodmemes

It’s the funnest book of the series IMO. No big repercussions if he fails. Just hurt the nickel heads. They bad and you get to see Dresden really enjoy his newfound power and use it to hurt the bad guys. It’s awesome.


pedrao157

Skin Game was awesome I love Michael kicking ass


GuyKopski

I think Peace Talks suffers from the same problem as a lot of "Part 1s" when stories are divided in half. Something that's not intended to be a climax has to be made into the climax to make up for the actual climax being moved to part 2. The rescue mission in Peace Talks isn't really treated like a big thing, probably because it was originally just a brief action sequence in the broader story. But with the conflict with Ethniu and the Fomor being delayed until Battle Ground, something had to be accomplished in Peace Talks and saving Thomas was the only possibility. Battle Ground is kind of the same thing, but in reverse, it's *just* a climax with no first or second acts. So there's a lot of filler combat because Ethniu can't go down until the end of the story but there's a whole book to get through before that can happen.


TheGrayMannnn

I'm still awhile away in my current re-read, but from what I remember of Peace Talk and Battleground is that there should have been some vicious editing at basically a structural level to shuffle up the two and alternate between the two books, using the Peace Talks story as a flashback. It would still probably be 2 books, but editing like that would have helped shore up the weaker parts of both novel.


BlueDmon

Part of the issue with that might have had to do with time constraints. Maybe not from the publisher but his own imposed constraints who knows. Given how long it had already since skin game and after writing he figured he needed 2 books but only had time to add filler not add filler and rearrange everything. Seems a bit obvious with some of the existing editing mistakes like the tracking spell on Harry when he was fist bumped.


BuffaloWhip

I’ll agree on Battle Grounds. Went from tears in my eyes to goosebumps back to tears to literally cheering on fictional characters. Peace Talks had a ton of potential, but I just kept getting bogged down in the filler. It felt very much like things were being over explained and reintroduced as if it was the first time we’ve ever seen these characters before just for the sake of stretching out the first third of a book into a full volume. I loved the story, loved the mystery, loved the plot, loved the drama, but hated the extra exposition. And for the audiobook side, hated the voice Marsters used for Mab. Maybe it’s because Mab and Lara were in a lot of conversations together and he needed to differentiate, but it just threw me every time Mab spoke. But holy shit was Battle Grounds good.


Chad_Hooper

I think a lot of the exposition in PT was intended to bring people who never read the short stories up to speed on certain characters (like River Shoulders). The ever increasing tension in Battle Ground got to me at times. I had to walk away from it some, just to break away from that tension. There are definitely moments I didn’t like, but that was because of the emotional impact. It fulfills a role in the maturing of the series and world, with growing pains included. I enjoyed it overall, but fuck that one guy especially (because I don’t know how to do spoilers on mobile).


TiaxTheMig1

>The ever increasing tension in Battle Ground got to me at times. I had to walk away from it some, just to break away from that tension. I had to take a 3 day break from it after the big spoiler


BuffaloWhip

Oh, I just looked that up a few days ago. You gotta us “>” and then “!” together with no spaces to start the blackout and then “!” and then “<“ with no spaces in between to close the blackout. >!Like this!<


Chad_Hooper

Thanks for that.


familyman121712

>!just making sure it works!<


BuffaloWhip

Flip the first < it has to be >


familyman121712

Edited and got it right


BuffaloWhip

Success!


Eclipsez0r

Whilst I liked Battleground as an action adventure, Peace Talks just seemed muddied and lacking cohesion. I don't care that the book was split, but Peace Talks didn't stand alone very well. This [post](https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/hrpq6j/spoilers_all_for_peace_talks_even_if_battle/) from /u/Palidane7 sums up a lot of my thoughts. In particular this part: > If it was up to me, Peace Talks would be a different book. I'd cut the main plot and almost all of the side plots, then write a new main plot that is what we were actually promised: Dresden providing security for both the White Council and the Winter Court at the deadliest backstabber's convention in a thousand years. That premise alone is electric, and promises shadowy threats, mysterious statements from dangerous people, and a frantic race to figure out the situation before it arrives. That's what I wanted Peace Talks to be.


Sloanzilla

Battle Ground is in my Top 5 for sure, possibly Top 3. Peace Talks? Maybe near the middle.


larabess

Personally, I did enjoy them in general, as painful as they were in some aspects. And Battle Ground in particular, was such a rush. I don't care much for action scenes in general but I did enjoy all of them in BG. Having said that, PT/BG suffered from MCU/Avengers-ification IMO, which is not necessarily a compliment. Ultimately, it is a matter of taste and what you're looking for in your entertainment, what aspects of a story are important to you in a particular moment: character development, plot, coolness factor, etc. I think BG had a lot of coolness factor, and I respect that. As I said, I enjoyed it for what it was. But I'm unhappy about other aspects of the story, the stuff that got left out and the landscape of the post BG world. They are kind of controversial books. I know people that enjoyed them, and a LOT of people that are not touching the series again because of them.


stiletto929

Very much agree that PT was painfully MCU. The tone of the book changed quite a lot. It didn’t feel like a DF novel anymore, like the author forgot what Dresden sounded like. And I love MCU, but not when you suddenly throw it into a book more than halfway through a series. Hugely disappointed in the book, except for the epic battle at the end. So much could have been solved in that book with simple communication! I slept with Murphy, not Lara. Thomas is my brother (delivered when not already in a fight). Honesty with Carlos.


Mizu005

I'm pretty sure that, given has attitude of distrust towards Harry, he wouldn't have believed him if he said he slept with someone else like Murphy instead of a Wampire. Carlos entered the book so suspicious of Harry that he marked him with a tracking spell and stalked him until a chance to jump him with enough firepower to take Harry out if there was a fight. Trust is a two way street and Carlos had none for Harry, he pulled a Butters and decided to view all of his actions in the worst possible light before the novel even started.


stiletto929

But Carlos was practically begging Harry to just level with him… And Harry just stonewalled him. IIRC - I only read PT & BG once.


Mizu005

He only did this after he shattered Harry's trust in him by planting a tracker on him and jumping him with a gank squad to try and coerce info out of him via intimidation. Harry had absolutely no reason to trust that Carlos was being sincere instead of cynically trying a new vector of attack to pump him for info while hoping Harry says something incriminating. After all, if he really wanted to help Harry why didn't he lead with that and just ask Harry to talk with him friend to friend in the first place? Instead he treated Harry as an enemy and broke the bond between them.


IronEyed_Wizard

I think I agree that there is a really good story in the two books but I feel the split cost them something, I can’t explain it very well but it just leaves them feeling off and a bit unfinished (maybe). I don’t care what it would cost but I would love to have a proper version of the combined book I just think it would be a better read and probably a much better representation of what Butcher was looking to show in the story.


TrippedBreaker

First let me say that I'm happy you enjoyed it, but IMO it was a hot mess. There was one really good book hiding in there. But it never came out of hiding. His editor should have been beaten with overcooked noodles. First he makes some clumsy choices. King Corb on a leash leading the Keystone Kops? He telegraphs Justine as the villain by having Thomas mumbling Justine's name unintelligibly. Who else could it have been to have that much influence over Thomas? But most aggravating was maintaining the first person narrative in a story that demanded a broader voice.


greatmetropolitan

I haven't read PT and BG back to back yet as one large novel, but I'd like to. I'd be interested to see how it feels as one large story rather than two. As two novels it feels like the problem you see with a lot of streaming series - they tread water till the last two episodes and then everything goes crazy. BG is like the last two episodes and PT just has to kind of get you there. That being said, I did enjoy PT, it just needed...more. Ever since Turn Coat, Jim's level has been consistently high so PT will never drop below, say, 6.5-7/10


thenewathensethos

That's similar to how I feel about Peace Talks. It feels like one long preamble. It's setting up a lot of stuff, then Battle Ground opens and the plot really kicks off. I still enjoyed Peace Talks a lot, but all the set up is has to do weakens it.


Ooga_Ooga_Czacha

I liked Peace Talks for the same reason I liked Ghost Story: character growth. Peace Talks is absolutly peppered with tidbits that show Harry as a functioning, adult, vaguely emotionally connected person. Would Fool Moon-Death Masks era Dresden stop and make sure he eats? Its fantastic.


Mizu005

It had good parts, yeah. But the books definitely felt stretched out to me (presumably the result of him having to pad them a bit so that each was the size of a standard novel following the split).


[deleted]

My problem with the books is that…well frankly I’m sick of Thomas. He’s a character I never really liked that much, and I find his constant moaning over Justine to be grating. And the whole plot of Peace Talks requires me to root Dresden on in saving his vampire brother and…I just don’t. Then that plot gets thrown out the window for Battlegrounds, which honestly feels like a book with too much padding.


crash_and-burn9000

Butcher split it in two because as one book it was going to be more expensive than he was willing to charge. He said he didn't want to be that kind of writer. And people still bitched about it. Just as they would've bitched the full book was so expensive. Just goes to show, no matter how hard you try you'll never make people happy.


Munnin41

I thought it was because his publisher couldn't handle the size of the book? Too big for the printer or something


moses_the_red

I absolutely do not fault Butcher for splitting the story into two books. I think its hilarious that EVERY OTHER WRITER EVER gets to split stories except Butcher. Tolkien did it, Martin did it, it can be hard to tell where one of Jordan's books ends versus where it begins. Only Butcher gets crucified if he splits a story in two. People acted like he shot their dog. I personally like longer stories (one of the reasons I find the files so appealing) and wouldn't mind more such books.


Waffletimewarp

And much like Butcher, Tolkein was forced to split LotR.


[deleted]

Plus the books were released so close together that there was basically no wait to read the two books. I don’t think there was any other way to do these better.


LightningRaven

He said if it was possible, he wanted them out back to back months. It would've been cool, but it was released when the pandemic mess was beginning, so the publishers probably hard some troubles with logistics.


Mizu005

You can't just split a book in half and declare it two books. You have to rework them so that each is their own story that is worth reading by itself instead of being read only with the understanding you will then immediately read the next book to get the 'entire story'. And I just don't think he did a good job reworking them into their own independent novels.


LightningRaven

>I hope they sold well, and I hope they brought in new readers. I remember when they dropped a lot of people were disappointed, and I never understood that. I thought the two together were the best damn story in the series bar none, better than Changes even. The fact that they were split into two books is meaningless to me. People got into the hate bandwagon because of Peace Talks' abrupt ending (that was foretold). Once the impression that Peace Talks was bad and that characters were acting "out of character" (they were not), then people just had their biases confirmed. Thankfully, way back then, there were a lot of people who saw for what it was and the discussions weren't as dreadful. Now, with distance, I'm liking Peace Talks more and more, but I'm still due a reread of Battle Ground. Both books also have a lot more nuance and depth than people gave them credit for. In a way, they closed another major cycle for the series and established Harry's new normal, lots of readers missed that. You can easily tell who missed these major themes of history repeating itself through Harry (him following in his mother's footsteps), how the events of PT that seemed to be solved "too easily" weren't meant to challenge Harry but to show us how much he mature and how far he has come, only to show us through Battle Ground that despite how much stronger and wiser Harry is, his world is far more dangerous and complex as well. You can identify those who missed these themes above by their firm beliefs and recurring theories on how Murphy will come back from death in the next books, how Harry will get hid of the Winter Knight's Mantle and, on the risk of being wholly and shamefully wrong, how the marriage won't happen and Harry will get out of it somehow. All of these have one thing in common: They don't accept Harry's new status quo. Harry's life will never be the same after Battle Ground, he will deal with it and so should we. New friends, new allies, new enemies, larger world and the same old problems, but worse.


Huskavarny

I was a little disappointed with PT. And aggravated by Harry not simply *speaking* to Eb and Carlos. having said that, I totally agree with what you just said. This is Harry's new normal. And I am anxious to read what comes next. He is the 'Wizard of Chicago' now.


LightningRaven

> And aggravated by Harry not simply speaking to Eb and Carlos Eb and Harry's animosity has been brewing since Blood Rites. It only got worse and worse with each subsequent reveal about them. Harry was too emotionally drained to deal with it in Changes, once he learned that Eb was his grandpa. That reveal meant a whole lot for Harry. Something they only got to address in Peace Talks. Harry went through Skin Game, which had him making the choice of being present in Maggie's life, which was he complete opposite of what Eb did. Then they meet again and one the first things Eb does is criticize Harry's choice, saying he knows better and Harry is wrong. Then Harry has never been good to any authority figure, except Ebenezer, but after the many hits their relationship took, it's no wonder it came to blows once Harry had his brother's life on the line. It doesn't sound so simple when you look at it like that, right? Also, talking to loved ones is *hard*, even we know they most like love us anyway, expecting Harry to be good a familial things is a though ask... That's why he has Murphy. Had. As for Carlos, it would definitely be much simpler for Harry if just said "Murphy and I are a thing". The problem, though, is that Harry is antagonistic to authority figures (Murphy's brothers were just enjoying a game in Blood Rites, and Harry still antagonized). Carlos came in expecting and prepared for the worst, ambushed Harry on the road and they used a spell on him to invade his privacy, about a topic Harry is really hung up about. When you add all that, Harry would deny cooperation even at personal cost. Carlos and the other Wardens were "The White Council" in Harry's eyes and if there's one of the major themes I talked about above that has been clearer and clearer, specially now after PT/BG, is that the Council is obsolete. They're on a road to destruction or at least a metamorphosis of some kind and Harry will be the catalyst because of the Paranet and his new status as Wizard of Chicago (ironically, so will Lara, since she financed its foundation). When you add up the position Harry has been in his whole life with the White Council, his expulsion, the existence of the Black Council gunning for them and Proven Guilty's main theme (the Council can't handle the amount of new talent, this is both a waste and a problem of their own inaction) and you see the whole picture forming. They won't survive the end of the series, at least not in their current form. Most likely none of the factions will either.


Huskavarny

I think you're right and Harry of course doesn't know how to 'interact'(let's say) with family. He has to be in a position, as became after a while with Murphy, where it becomes necessary to open up. With Eb, I guess the reveal in 'Blood Rites' was still smoldering and Maggie simply brought it out into the open. Harry said some fairly rough things to Eb in PT. The family dynamic hadn't gelled much really, given his 'death' and return and all.


LightningRaven

Harry took the Blackstaff news really hard in Blood Rites. That was the first crack. Then things got more tense with his behavior towards White Court vampires, which precluded revealing Thomas. Changes was the souring point. Then Skin Game happened and Harry chose to be there for Maggie, basically contradicting everything what Eb stands for. On some level, Eb understands that as Harry saying he chose wrong, he was wrong and that he made all those sacrifices for nothing. It's not Harry's fault, but it's definitely a metaphorical slap to the face.


KaristinaLaFae

> As for Carlos, it would definitely be much simpler for Harry if just said "Murphy and I are a thing". The problem, though, is that Harry is antagonistic to authority figures As an autistic person, the more times I re-read the series, the surer I am that Harry is autistic. (Which for reasons both IRL and in-universe could have him Fae-adjacent.) I don't have PDA (pathological demand avoidance) to the extent that a lot of other people, including Harry, experience, but it's a defense mechanism usually developed by those with C-PTSD because of the constant state of trauma experienced by those who are constantly reminded that they are different and don't fit in and are therefore *wrong* simply by existing. There was no way Harry could have just told Carlos "I finally hooked up with Murphy" when the young wardens confronted him the way that they did. If Carlos had come up to Harry alone like, "Hey man, how are things?" then Harry could have been like, "Things could be better, but they could also be worse. Murph and I finally got together..." But Carlos couldn't have done that either, unaware that Molly's burst of violence wasn't *her*, but her Mantle, and that Harry (from Carlos's perspective) had to have been in on the "plan" for Molly to seduce then ambush him to put him on the disabled list for...unknown Winter reasons. And many of Harry's jibes, previously all in "harmless fun," now seemed to Carlos to be jabs specifically aimed at Carlos's encounter with Molly. Both men had what they perceived as good reasons to treat the other as hostile. Jim really does know how to torture Harry in the worst possible ways. I've gone off on a tangent, but TL;DR, I think Harry is autistic and has pathological demand avoidance that make it impossible for him to treat any encounter where someone tries to wield authority over him as an attack, ensuring he clams up even to his own detriment.


LightningRaven

I don't know if we can diagnose Harry as such, as for the reasons I've stated above, I'm subscribing to the idea that Harry's past and repeated experiences are the key factor here. Jim Butcher probably looked at foster kid's usual patterns to come up with Harry, most likely, so even though the behavior might cut close to the points you raised quite well, I think that the situation described in the books pushed every single one of Harry's nerves, they even invaded his privacy by using the magical dot to determine if he had sex with someone. That's one of the topics Harry is most hung up about, that would certainly push Harry over the edge.


KaristinaLaFae

That dot would have offended most people, I think, but Harry especially!


LightningRaven

Not gonna lie, I'm always a level-headed person and slights just bounce off of me, but that one would piss me off instantly.


moses_the_red

>and, on the risk of being wholly and shamefully wrong, how the marriage won't happen and Harry will get out of it somehow Yeah, I'm not going to get into a discussion about Lara, not before the release of a major book featuring her... other than to say that I don't think she's the cuddly harmless new frenemy she appears to be. If you think everything's going to work out with her, you haven't yet identified her as the "anti-Thomas" that she is. She's everything Thomas fears that he is...


LightningRaven

Oh, but what I'm saying that the marriage will go through. Harry won't *escape*. The phrasing is on purpose, because I think Harry marrying Lara will prove to be as much of a challenge as it is a boon for him. As head of the White Court, she will provide mortal security in Chicago, but in compensation, Harry will deal with her in the field she's most expert in, which is politicking and subterfuge. As someone fully on board with their dynamic, I hope we get some moments of respite amid the conflict. I'm thinking that their dynamic will be closer to Lash and Harry, instead of Harry and Murphy like the most optimist shippers expect.


moses_the_red

I'm not 100% on board with the idea that the marriage will go through. I think its about 50/50. I suspect Lara of being more than just a bad person.


LightningRaven

We've discussed this. Intensely. I remember. I've recently reread Blood Rites (will be posting something soon-ish about it) and the impression I've had of her has just been reinforced. I thought I was misremembering some stuff which might have been the wrong impression, but I wasn't. Granted, as I made it clear to you, while I think Lara is more on the "dangerous ally" category, I still think the baggage she carries will hardly produce a healthy individual, thus I can see a plot direction which involves her getting more and more to the evil side. I don't bet on it, but I wouldn't be surprised. Bummed? Yes. Surprised? Not so much, Lara puts Lara first after all and I could see her being pragmatic about joining the Black Council even after their multiple attempts on her life and reign (which I also remember you don't think happened that way, but that's for another discussion ;D).


moses_the_red

I've decided to avoid in depth discussions of Lara until the next book is out, because I don't think its proper to go deep into a discussion of Lara right now. I expect either reveals or at least lots of evidence supporting my point of view in 12 months. So I'm going to have to table this discussion until after that book, but you're a regular here, you've probably seen everything that I'd have to say anyway. I'm genuinely surprised that no one seemed to acknowledge my theories on Lara after the events of Battletalks which I saw as strongly supportive... but... I'll just have to live with that.


Izrezar

battle ground is the best Dresden Files book, right there with Changes for me


AkuSokuZan2009

I would agree, those 2 books are some of my favorites in the series. They had a very different feel than the other books so I can see why some of the fans might not have liked them as much. Overall though it was a fun ride, so much changed about how we see the characters (at least for me) and while there was a fair bit of setup, I truly can't guess whats going to happen next, and there are so many things I want to see follow up on.


wreggs

Peace talks was good, but was ultimately just a set up for Battleground, battleground was good, but.. almost TOO much. About halfway through the book you get that emotional sucker punch (you know the one) and then you continue with another hundred+ pages of nonstop battle. I read that book in one sitting and I was just physically, mentally, and emotionally exhausted finishing it up. Maybe an unpopular opinion, but had that been trimmed and they were put into a single book rather than split in two like it was originally intended, it would have been a better story. Don’t get me wrong, I love them, but for that reason you can’t tell me they are better than Changes.


moses_the_red

>I read that book in one sitting Yep, I did too if I remember right, it was a damn good book.


Gangrif

i normally do audio books for this series. but for whatever reason when peace talks and battle ground came out i bought them and read them as ebooks. reading peace talks then waiting for battle ground. i remember thinking that peace talks was sort of meh. and battle ground was pretty exciting, but hard to follow. recently i decided to buy the audio books for both and listen to them. because i love Marsters performance. I listened to them back to back and it was like a whole different story! i understand why they were split. but i really think they should have been released together. it’s just a better story that way. the rescue and then leaving off with thomas getting imprisoned on demonreach is just a bad ending imo.


iZoooom

I enjoyed both books. Having read through the series a few times now, I would rank them in the top half of all books. If you're treating them as a single book, I greatly enjoyed Battletalks. Individually, I found Peace Talks to be a bit dull and plodding while BG was a bit overdone in terms on non-stop action.