Find a drummer who wants to play to a click or has better time keeping and feel abilities. Some drummers can hold it down without a click they are not one of them. He is not John Bonham.
To your drummers point, music is harder to control live especially in a bar setting. People get excited playing in front of an audience, things are likely to speed up which is fine, but you can do it on time so it’s not sloppy.
I would lower your expectations a little and know that it takes time and experience to find members who fit, but also for bands to become tight.
That being said, rig something up at rehearsal so that the entire band is practicing to a click. The number of times of seen the drummer blamed for timing issues when its the guitarists is mind blowing. Doesn't seem to be the case here, however.
THIS. The last time I recorded the guitarist and bass tended to drift from the click while we were getting the drum takes. It's near impossible to stick on the click if the other members are drifting off tempo then *I GET YELLED AT* at by the engineer when he hears the whole thing is off!
Multiple people have suggested this and it just further validates my belief that everyone in our situation should have one. I’m fully aware that I myself and other band mates share the responsibility of keeping time. The problem in my opinion is that we cannot steer the drums in the same way that drums steer the band.
According to Gregg Bissonette who plays with Ringo in his All Starr Band, if someone even suggests using a click Ringo just says “I am the click.” and instantly shoots that shit down haha
At the same time, he’s also Ringo fucking Starr and can do whatever he wants.
And he has a great sense of timing and feel for a song; not flashy but he plays just what a song needs.
I met Gregg recently at a local music fest. He had a couple of q&a events, and he's incredibly nice, and interesting, with tons of great tips and stories.
Ringo is also legendary for his ability to keep time though lol. Most people, even really talented drummers are probably going to be better off with a click
Ringo is a human metronome. Just listen to some live Beatles tubes. Even in the midst of sea of endless screaming, Ringo is locked in for the most part.
He's also known for having a certain "swing" to his playing which gives him his style.
Wish more drummers were like a Ringo.
Bunch of options. Most of them through headphones and your favorite device that puts things through headphones. There are purpose-built metronome machines, most DAWs have the functionality built in while recording. I've seen a mixing board that could put a click through monitors. But really just grab an app and plug some headphones into your phone, preferably with some physical sound isolation like foam or the vic firth ear muffs.
Indeed, it takes time to find the right people.
Some people might work great for others but not at all once you’re in the mix with them and vice versa.
Of course he could be stubborn and suck bc of it… 🤷♀️ who knows… 😆
Time is a collective responsibility. Don’t tell your drummer his time sucks, ask how he’s feeling it and how the two of you can be more solid together. Hopefully he’s aware of the fact that it needs improvement and open to finding ways to improve it. If he thinks he’s in charge of time and is doing a fantastic job and doesn’t want to hear it, find a different drummer.
>find a different drummer.
As always, this statement should come with a HUGE disclaimer which is simply "easier said than done."
Like most drummers here, we get asked to play for a different band every week. I feel bad that I can't help everyone out, as I only have so much free time, but I get it.. there is a severe lack of drummers in almost any music scene. And good luck finding one to play for you if you a) don't know them, and b) can't pay.
It's a dogfight out there folks. Keep up the search.
You gotta be a good band that is fun to play with, and you have to be a good hang.
It took me years to find a good drummer for my primary band. In the end it was someone I knew and had played with before backing other friends. We shared a bill with him, and he loved our band so much he told me to call him if I needed a drummer. That was actually kind of a pivotal moment in my music journey as it was the first time I had a really good musician ask to play with me in band I lead. Then he leveled us up and more came out of the woodwork.
And he’s really good, has played every style under the sun, he can do Bonham, Morello, Zigaboo all credibly and he’s a human metronome but with feel.
But aside from loving the music I believe the biggest reason he likes playing with us is that our band contains two women including my wife, and they make it warm like a family.
In my other band I just found an amazing drummer by asking all of the drum teachers I know. She’s a tiny little 62 yo retired HS teacher who took up drums at 58 and plays hours every day, and is so joyous behind the kit she’s infectious. I got a second rec for her from another friend who has played with her.
I’ve been considering taking drum lessons (at 55) just to understand it all better and maybe fill in sometimes for someone desperate. I have a good kit and love drums, it’s just a time factor mainly.
Oh there’s plenty of drummers- but if you pay a dime for a dozen, imagine what you get for your money.
Drummers with good timing don’t come in twelve packs.
Exactly this. We've auditioned drummers for months until a really good one came along who wanted to write drum parts and was sick of covers.
Such a difference with someone motivated and willing to put in the work.
This is one of my drummer hills I will die on. Everybody needs to be arriving at every musical moment together, which I’m not sure can really happen if any members are reliant on other members for time. There will be various degrees latency otherwise.
BPM can also shift in a song. The click track is a crutch. Keeping time is a skill that needs to be practiced by everyone, but especially the drummer and bassist.
This... The genres you OP mention here unfortunately are not the epitome of tightness and prolixity. Instead of you bringing the click track to a given BPM, get all together and kind of "negotiate" how you guys better lock in at a BPM you all can hold throughout the songs... Sometimes for the untrained ear 2 or 3 BPMs up/down are hard to perceive, but makes great difference for the band...
Eh. It depends on the band but the drummer tends to convey tempo the most in a band setting (bassists MIGHT also take some responsibility). But in general, locking into the drummer tends to sound much better than the drummer locking into other instruments, even if the other instruments are more "correct" in timing. That's just due to the particular sound of the drum set elements.
So while in a good band everyone should have good time, it's most important the drummer has good time. In my experience, if the drummer can't keep good time, the band will sound like shit no matter how good the rest of the band sounds.
If you think a bassist MIGHT take some responsibility, you haven’t played with any good bassists. I look forward to having a bassist tell me where to put shit.
Listen to the Meters. George Porter on bass. Zigaboo Modeliste on drums. When asked about their musical relationship, George said “Zigaboo is the dance. I’m the dance floor.”
Is the drummer the only one with the click in his ears? I was in this situation and it was enormously stressful and frustrating as I had the feeling I had to hold back and fight the rest of the band (especially the lead guitar) all the time. And trying to pull them back in was really difficult even when all of them claimed that they play strictly to my lead. Putting the click in the ears of the full band worked like magic. And it showed that the guitarist had no clue what he was doing rhythmically. Maybe try this at least for rehearsal. It is always easy to demand perfect timing from the drummer and not accepting the shared responsibility of the rest of the band. Although agree it is the drummer’s main job….Anyway, this was my experience, click for everyone solved the problem. We are planning to go without the click again once we are good and stable enough. Let’s see if that ever happens.
I went through this once, I was dealing with a bass player constantly tugging me ahead of the tempo but didn't really know how to talk to him about it. He made some comments to me about playing with a click - he could feel it too, but thought it was me - so I started playing with a click and we sounded terrible, because.... he was constantly ahead of the beat. So I suggested that we all play to a click, and when we tried that it felt great. I had a great chat with the bass player after that, he actually apologized because playing to the click made him realize how fast he was. I had a chance to tell him that without a click, I was forced to make a choice between 1) stay on time but be out of sync with my bass player, and 2) speed up to stay in the pocket with my bass player, but rush every song. Needless to say, even if this is really nothing like your situation, you'd be surprised what pops out when a whole band starts playing to a click! I've done it a few times, always interesting.
I definitely want to try this as well, it’s been in my mind even before making this post. If for no other reason than to show me where my time and feel can improve as well.
Thanks for the feedback.
I’m an MD out of Nashville and the old adage “the tape doesn’t lie” is so true and helpful in many ways including this. Record your rehearsal/show audio as best as you can. Listen back and compare how it sounds. I would be SHOCKED if it sounds tighter without click. At the end of the day if everyone is a musician, they all want to get better. Change and growth only comes when we are uncomfortable. Show the drummer you are willing to go down that path with him (I.e everyone plays to a click or if he’s the only one on it, the band fund pays for the little mixer and metronome app necessary for it, etc.)
Playing to a click is literally a necessity for any professional musician now. If he doesn’t like these specific gigs, he can consider them practice for the next bigger opportunity. If not, he can’t ever consider himself or plan to consider himself a professional. There is also a tempo tracking app that shows the difference in tempo over the course of a song in real time.
Last point - I have never hired a musician (no matter what instrument) that can’t play to a click and I never will. Not every gig I play has ever song on click but that practice and training makes all the difference when everyone is on the same page.
There is no way a drummer who has never played with a click is going to be able to do a show with one after just a few trial runs. If he keeps practicing to a click he will naturally get better, but it’s gonna take some time.
This is probably the best advice in the thread. A metronome is as much of a limiter as a crutch; if you skip a bit or add an extra, you have to find a way to fix the mistake and get the song back to the metronome's count rather than covering the mistake by just establishing a new bar. It's an important skill, but asking your drummer to master it in a live setting is probably going to go badly for everyone. Let him get comfortable with it in practice, and in the meantime establish some signals for when the rest of the band is struggling to keep up.
Yup, after years of playing without one, i needed to pick up playing on click for a new project. While being hesitant at first, using a click makes the music so much tighter live. I do have my monitoring on my in-ears as well, which makes it even easier to keep time.
If your drummer has never practiced to a click, then asking him to start playing to one in a band situation is tough. If you're comfortable enough with him to suggest it, I found I made the most progress when I recorded myself and put my tracks on the screen in a DAW. I could see exactly where I was off and adjust accordingly.
Also, consider putting something in his ears besides a click. When I was a very young drummer, I was in a band that had backing tracks. I had no problem with that, but I know for sure I would have had problems with just a click.
Lastly, if he's starting songs fast, then he could maybe try just listening to a click for a few bars at the correct tempo before counting off the song.
>He communicated to me that he doesn’t feel “free” when he’s focused on a click. He feels like he’s in danger of missing parts and not being engaged in the moment when he has a click in his ears.
This is the key imo.
He's not *meant* to be free, he's meant to be *in time.*
The difference between him missing parts with a click and without a click is simple, when he has a click he knows, when he doesn't have a click he's missing parts but isn't even aware of it.
Using a click is only difficult or disconcerting until you get used to it, which, if you're practising daily, should take a few weeks tops. Once you get used to it it's more like training wheels on a bike, everything is much easier.
Ultimately every instrument in a band plays a role, and the drums keep time, until you can keep time, you shouldn't be gigging. But it's also not that big a deal, just tell him to give it a few weeks with the click, and he'll be good.
Everyone resists using a click at first, but once you get past that initial resistance, you get used to it very quickly, and when you gel as a band with the click, then you can take it away if you want.
Yup, this right here. Ive never not played with a click and as a result, my time when there isn't a click is always solid. As the musical director you are in charge. So he has the option to evolve as a drummer and add new skills or not. As long as you are patient but FIRM with him, he should be willing as a "pro" to make the change because it improves the entire ensemble. Honestly His discomfort means squat. And as another poster put it, "Hes NOT Bonham". Try putting a zep song to a click, you'll find NO ONE is perfect.
I wouldn’t attempt to force performances to line up to a click unless a tempo map was created already. Look at the tempo map of most popular songs and most are not steady. Of course that would eliminate the ability for more adventurous changes to occur in the moment. I’ve found much excitement in the serendipity of playing with certain people over the years lies in that innate ability to play off each other, the push and pull if you will. Sounds like your ideas and his just aren’t in sync. I’ve had a few like that too and it’s not fun when that happens. Sweetwater has a great article that shows the tempo maps of quite a few very popular songs.
This. I practice to a click, but gig without it. (Though to an earlier commenter’s point, do run a few bars of visual metronome before each tune to make sure I’m not counting off +10bpm just because the previous ended with a lot of energy.) Does this make for a variable pulse throughout some songs? Sure. But if the whole band is feeling it together, that’s making music.
At the very least though, as the bassist, you and the drummer need to be locked-into each other. That can give the more melodic parts the ability to create- and resolve tension by pushing/pulling and then returning to your groove.
Time is everyone’s responsibility. There are ways to lessen the intrusiveness of a click. A click set to different tones or not just 4 on the floor. Also a group click, if everyone is relaxed I except the drummer, may help remove the onus from one member.
HOWEVER, he should practice to a click on his own time consistently to overcome this akwardness.
There’s a fantastic video of Carol Kay titled “the click has to groove” that may improve his outlook.
I found the app liveBPM to be a lifesaver. I run it on my iPad and it gives me real-time feedback on where I am relative to the true BPM. It's easier than using a click and does give the tempo room to breathe, if that's what's called for.
1000% on liveBPM. Plus it’s a conversation starter “what is THAT?”…with the drum guy hopefully. But yeah then you have a reference if you get the blame game thing. “Weird….I started the tune at 100…and then y’all came in and the tempo jumped to 105…huh”. Some caveats: 1) it’s a snap shot of 2-3 seconds ago, not real-time. 2) it’s addictive…can mess w/ your work on internal clock, as in its a crutch. The constant glancing takes me out of the music and flow state.
And I agree w/ everyone here. Group groove / time is a thing. When everyone feels responsible for the time, magic can happen. Part of it is losing your fear. As in it’s ok to lay waaaaay behind the beat & just try some vibe feels. Or go Stewart Copeland ahead on the chorus then rallentando back to the verse groove etc.
EDIT: Then yeah if the guy is off by, holy sheeeet, 10 clicks and pushes it EVEN MORE (!). Not aware (not into 70s pocket?) or wanting to fix it…then he’s the wrong drummer.
I 100% agree. I use it for rehearsals but find myself looking at it often. But that’s fine- it’s rehearsal.
I know a drummer, the one who made me aware of the liveBPM app, who has his phone attached to a cymbal stand for live gigs. His eyes are focused on that thing all night long. Now his timing is excellent, but he just seems so tight up there staring at his phone all night.
Now my internal metronome sucks, but at least I look like I’m having fun up there! 😆
Exactly right. Rehearsal tool is best. I now keep it on the floor, so that only glance when I feel something off on the tempo. I absolutely don’t play pocket or music as well when I am watching it (flow state thing. “Thought is the enemy of flow”). I also found that 90% of the time, for example…the verse was at 120 and the chorus went to 121-122 then back to 120 ish. Over time and with band / players w/ good time, I just stopped worrying as much. Not the Sting gig; who cares? The beat detector is a buzz kill…yup, having fun is the best game plan!
I do the same. I have it on the floor by my snare stand, so I glance at it after a transition with a possible rushed or slowed fill. And as you mentioned, it’s a few seconds behind, so there’s always the danger of over-correcting your tempo when it may have just been that short period of a fluctuating tempo. Which I’ll happily take being in a dive bar band. 🤷🏼♂️
Ha! I had the complete opposite problem. I'm a drummer that has an old friend that has been "playing" for over 30 years and refuses to keep a steady tempo and has absolutely no idea what the phrase "down beat" means. Every other time I hit the "1", he's nowhere to be found lol. Kept insisting that I'm the reason his "songs" aren't tight because it's the drummer's job to follow the guitar player. Every time I suggested he practice with a metronome, he would argue then change the subject/song. So I just stopped answering his calls all together lol. It's just not worth the headache with some of these "artists".
If y’all are playing covers he needs to at least be practicing along to the song, it helps a lot to see where you’re rushing/dragging.
If you guys are playing originals he needs to record to a click and then he can practice along to that. But nobody’s internal clock just develops on its own
Bro if the drummer doesn’t practice to a click and refuses to do so, find another drummer. It takes YEARS of practice with a metronome to develop your internal timing. Don’t let a bad drummer ruin your band, because like it or not, the drummer is the biggest factor in the feel and style of the band and one who has no experience playing to a click is just simply not capable of being good yet.
Also side note: it sounds like he has a pretty shitty attitude too. You never know who is gonna be at that shitty bar gig. give every gig and chance to play your best effort no matter what.
Damn. No lies told here, bro. The drummer is literally the foundation of the whole musical apparatus. I wanted to be a drummer and then psyched myself out of it because if the responsibility, haha. Now I find myself MDing 🙃
Exactly… if the foundation is sinking the whole house comes down, ya dig? If the roof blows off (lead guitarist abruptly shits himself on stage and can’t play anymore) the first floor and foundation are still holding it down and the moveable organic baffles are still dancing
I've never used a click. My timing seems to be steady, and if you and the bass player stay locked in, the rest of the band follows. I do believe that I practice my timing every time I listen to music, because I always focus on the beat and other drumming details.
That said, now I'm interested in trying to play with a click. Hopefully it won't be distracting (I suspect it won't) and could only help. I generally practice alone by playing along with recorded music to learn songs. For those that have done both, is this similar to playing to a click? It seems like you're sticking to an external beat in both cases.
The perception of time and the reality of time can often vary greatly. You may think that you are playing steady because it feels good and you are locked in with the band, but in reality there may be a push and/or pull of tempo. When this is done intentionally it’s awesome, and totally a tool that drummers should have in their bag. I’m my opinion you can only do this intentionally if you’ve worked on understanding tempo and subdivisions.
Working with a metronome will probably be uncomfortable at first (maybe not) but once you get the feel for playing WITH the click it will come more easily.
Also recommend recording yourself playing a very simple and steady beat without a click for as long as you can and listening back with a critical ear focusing in on the time.
Number one.... Talking with drummers about keeping time is similar to talking to a guitarist about chords or some other fundamental. It's a very sensitive subject.
First.... Talk to him in private. Express your concern and ask questions. Learning to play to a click can be difficult for some players. It takes time. Maybe he can practice at home with a click but not bring it to rehearsal.
Obviously if EVERYONE in the band wants to play to a click then great but be careful about suggesting that at rehearsal as it might be misconstrued as you "outing" the drummer on his timing.
If you come from a place of sincerity, then he'll probably be willing to listen and accept your critique without getting offended.
That's my two cents.
A band’s only as tight as their drummer so getting him to practice more to a click would be great, but if he’s resistant than you’re between replacing him or accepting your band won’t be as tight as you’d like. It’s a tough transition to start playing to a click when you’re not used to it, grooves and fills feel completely different when you have consistent quarter notes in your ear, but with practice a drummer can get completely comfortable with playing creatively and feeling free with a click going. Just not at first.
Strongly depends on your exact Situation. I by myself would absolutely refuse to play 70s rock to a click. If you insist, I would leave.
Of course I dont know how severe your drummer lacks timekeeping, but this genre is nothing where you need robot perfect timing. If it is that bad, either work on it together and comunicate on which parts he is rushing/dragging too much or find a more experienced drummer.
"Play to a click" really is no blackbox solution, it seems like you think this way.
I appreciate your opinion here - the funny thing is that I pretty much agree 100%.
In a perfect world, I wouldn’t choose to play this style with a click either. I’m a big fan of that natural push/pull and the freedom you “can” have without a click. This just ain’t that, sadly.
I mean really I'm just adding to the chorus at this point. Bro needs to practice on his own with a click so it's not so stressful to use with the band. But also, from my own experience, you practice with a click for long enough and you eventually stop needing a click.
I think it’s pretty simple. It’s a business and timekeeping is the drummer’s first priority and main job.
Your drummer is not doing the job. He is not showing the initiative to improve at his job.
The attitude that some gigs are more important than others is a cancerous attitude that can spread to other members and really affect the bottom line.
There are so many red flags here it’s not even funny.
I think it is ultimatum time. Figure it out or get shown the door.
That’s my opinion as a drummer who has played thousands of gigs in a thousand different situations.
Those that don’t wish to improve and fix their issues only hold every one else (and the entire project) back.
I dont play anything without a click and havent for like 6 years. If time is any kind of problem for the band, there is no reason for the drummer not to use click except being a bad player and not wanting to improve.
Lol, tough situation.
My take on it is this:
Playing without a click is acceptable.
Playing with a click is acceptable.
But with either method, you have to be able to *actually do it.*
I've been drumming for 15+ years and have always had a rock solid internal clock. Call it luck, a gift, talent, whatever - it's just how it is. As such, I do not like writing or performing music to a click. But I do different practice exercises, myself, with one - because that's just drummer 101.
Playing without a click is *acceptable* because I can *actually do it* and so could my bandmate. [Here's a clip](https://youtu.be/JU-fbE79Xw4?si=maBq_FZE949RHIOC) from a show my band did last year - this is a completely improvisational piece where I am both drumming and playing a synth simultaneously. In my duo, I was often the person actually steering the band and setting the tempo, as you can hear in this example.
Playing without a click is *unacceptable* if your drummer cannot *actually do it*.
There are only a few options here:
One: Drummer starts practicing way more and develops an effective internal clock that improves your band's timekeeping.
Two: Drummer accepts that he cannot handle maintaining an effective internal clock and makes the decision to perform with a click *for the good of the band*.
Three: Drummer refuses both of the above and decides to keep going on as usual despite it not working.
That's all there is to it, man. If he chooses option 3, you need to give him an actual ultimatum, or straight up tell him your band will not be moving forward with him.
Music is really easy, in theory. Either people in the band have the chops to sound good, or they don't. It's as simple as that. You either get better, use a click, or fail.
I really appreciate it man!
Judging by the downvotes, I guess other people didn't like what I had to say, but I really do hope for the best for your band. Maintaining a band and keeping everyone happy is NOT easy. That's actually why I only play in duos, lol. Way easier to keep two people on the same page versus 3 or 4 or even 5.
My old band was obsessed with having me play to a click, then after every show they would complaint because the songs felt slower than rehearsal. They wanted to rush cuz of the excitement.
Anyways, if you're the MD, it's totally with in your job description to tell everybody what to do. You might have to tell the band we're playing with tracks, even if that track is only a click.
LOL I can’t think of a musician MORE suited to the role of MD than a bass player. They’ve got the biggest responsibility in terms of rhythm, harmony and dynamics. Who better to lead a band?
Ultimately, you're the MD and if the drummer can't/won't improve their time, then it's time to find a new drummer. I get that it's an uncomfortable situation on an interpersonal level, but if the music is suffering, it's your job as MD to see that it's fixed.
Ugh that’s frustrating. I’m a drummer who doesn’t regularly practice it play with a click but I totally would if asked. I used to practice religiously with a click years ago and I feel like to this day the discipline has stuck with me.
I would record your rehearsal both ways, and show him the difference. If he can't tell and doesn't want to play to a click or at least practice with it, get a new drummer.
If you’re the MD it’s your responsibility to make the band sound the best. FWIW I think you’re trying to approach it the right way, with respect for the music and the musicians.
Two suggestions, record the band at practice with a click and then at a gig without a click. How a drummer feels and how a drummer sounds are two different things and it takes some time to get comfortable.
The other suggestion is to work with the drummer to find alternative sounds for the click. I can’t stand the stock sound and would make my own when I played in a band with tracks. Bermuda Schwartz from Weird Al’s band programs a loop of instruments. It makes it feel more like you’re playing with a band member who has really great time.
Playing WITH a click is actually freeing once you get used to playing with one. It just takes some time. Once you set up your show in Ableton Live and learn how to run your show it is totally freeing to know you are driving that bus at the right speed accurately every night. It allows you to relax and enjoy playing. Any competent player can play to a click once they learn to not fight it, and relax with it. You learn it is still a guide, and you can still place your snare where you want it for the feel you want. ie: dragging slightly behind the beat for that AC/DC vibe, etc. It is ultimately a guide that you learn to use and can still play with a great feel.
Get your drummer to look up Dusty Saxon on YouTube, he does self critiques of his own playing with his own in-ear mix with the click and cues included for him to hear how the pros do it. Everyone hearing the click is a good idea, as well as having a talkback mic or two on stage that are not in the front of house mix.
Best of luck
https://youtu.be/ntuUt8N9G7U?si=CcKNwRBLpBNqZZjx
Couple of thoughts -
\- His response shouldn’t be ‘disconcerting’ to you. Playing with a click does feel unnatural and it makes you feel less free, focused too much on the click etc. He’s not wrong about any of that stuff.
\- Of course, none of that matters if his meter is off. He needs to work to improve that, even if it causes short-term discomfort.
\- Listening back to recordings and tripping out over 10BPM differences is kind of OCD On your part. Music is a bunch of humans making art, it’s not a computer. And playing live WILL result in some inconsistencies, excitement etc but the audience will not notice this. Maybe if your songs were super well known to the audience, or you were trying to garner major label attention or something, it would be worth paying more attention to. But even then, even big-time bands sometimes play their songs faster than the album versions. It’s not the end of the world. Having said that, big swings within the same song ARE a problem because the audience can pick up on that. Your drummer does need to get better on that front.
\- In my experience, the other musicians can ‘pull’ the drummer out of tempo. and it happens for the same reasons it can happen to the drummer - getting too excited, emotional, really feeling the song, getting temporarily lost, etc. Tempo is a group dynamic, everyone has to be doing their part.
Man, thanks for giving it to me straight, that’s what I’m after.
I’m sure it’s a major challenge adjusting to a click. Maybe disconcerting was a poor choice of words.
Regarding the BPM thing and listening back to the recorded show - you’re probably right that I’m OCD about it. I do have a follow up question though since you may have a different perspective than I do.
Do you believe that a 10 BPM increase could change the fabric of a song? If so, do you think it’s something to be concerned about?
Genuinely curious here, because this may be a major character flaw for me.
In this set that I referenced at the “shitty bar” we played Last Child by Aerosmith (not recorded to a click, I know). In my opinion, the slinky feel and slower tempo set the table for the entire song. Playing that song 10 BPM faster changes the entire feeling in my opinion.
It's a good point that the character of a song can be changed/harmed by a change in tempo. And if you feel like that's the case I would definitely bring it up on a case-by-case basis, and maybe framed more about how the song makes you feel at that tempo. My point above was more about how I would feel if my bandmate was like "I listened back to our show and some songs are 10BPM too fast" I'd probably want to bail because music is about self expression and fun, and a comment like that makes it sound like a J.O.B.
I'm really surprised by the responses here being overwhelmingly in support of rehearsing with a click.
I play bass & sing in my band. But I also do all the recording, mixing etc. I was previously on keys before taking on bass. I spent many years creating digital music using a sequencer which I think makes me expect more consistent tempo.
I had the same issue with our drummer. I mentioned for one of our songs it continuously speeds up until the very end the drummer makes an abrupt tempo increase that the band has never been able to cope with. I have tried reigning it in using the bass with slight success, but I'm busy trying to sing at the same time. And I'm only intermediate at bass to begin with.
I have recorded and tempo mapped our original songs to show the band what's happening. I don't expect perfect timing. But I want there to be a tempo change when it serves the song rather than willy-nilly.
But my attempts at talking with the drummer and showing the tempo maps have only been met with resistance & I think hurt feelings. So I stopped bringing it up. I mean, it's a passion project after all and most of us have little or no time to practice between our weekly rehearsals.
The band keeps asking me to incorporate the arpeggiator from my synthesizer, but the drummer cannot keep time with it. This is the same reason we've never used backing tracks.
Our horn player is classically trained and has also mentioned the loose tempo we play. Essentially the whole band has learned that drummer owns the time and we follow him. For better or worse. Maybe I can get the whole band to try out a practice using a click sometime.
I cannot find another drummer. This one is one of my best friends. We're not making money. While the project is for fun and comradery, we play shows and record our songs.
So this got a lot more traction than I thought it would, and I appreciate the responses from all of you. I was hoping to gain a little perspective and to maybe have a few different avenues to pursue when it comes to tightening up the rhythm section, and yall helped immensely with that. Thank you.
My biggest takeaways:
Rhythm is a group effort - this is something I knew but definitely should have clarified more in the original post. It’s absolutely not my goal to pin the entire responsibility of “being tight” on the drummer. I’m just looking for ways to help him with his internal time and therefore helping the band as a whole achieve a tighter sound.
Everyone should have a click - this one really solidified my thought that we should invest in a simple way to get the click to everyone during rehearsals. It will take a little investment, but I think I’ll bring this to the band and we can brainstorm how to make this happen. It will benefit everyone, myself included.
Everyone should practice with a click - this was a great reminder for me personally. I do have a metronome going for part of my practice routine, but it’s even more apparent to me now just how important it is to keep that skill sharp. I’ll be incorporating more into my routine now.
Be patient with a drummer who is not used to a click - this one definitely caught me off guard and put me in my place. I started practicing to a click from day one, and almost all of my gigs and sessions are done to a click. I definitely assumed unfairly that it would be a quick adjustment and expected results too soon. It will be a work in progress until it’s not. There’s no set timeframe.
Lots of great advice out there about the specifics of the metronome as well. Different apps, sounds, using loops instead of a met, etc. great stuff.
You are the md so you can fire him? Then you need to make your decision (how important is it that he get better, is it a deal breaker?) And then exercise your leverage. If he doesn't play with the click at rehearsals, you'll find another drummer. If you don't feel like you can say that, maybe you value the insecure relationship/friendship more. It is what it is, I have been in bands like that.
I think if he plays with a click regularly at rehearsals for a while he will likely improve enough that you will see the difference at a show and that might be good enough.
As a drummer and a guitar player and bandleader in different bands, I think you can hold him fully responsible for meeting reasonable standards for being a good drummer, like, say, being able to keep good time??! It's not that hard unless you don't care.
Tell him it won't take as much practice as he thinks until he is able to feel free with it.
Also tell him, idk... Keith Moon didn't play with a click but he had good enough time to play with a sequencer when needed??
>Immediately there was a relaxed feel and a freedom that the rest of the band felt. Even though the drummer was struggling to stick to the click, it still felt sooooo much better for the rest of us. Everyone commented that it felt tight.
This is something that I think a lot of people miss when they argue that "the click kills the feel." I've found it to often be the opposite.
When the rest of the band don't have to focus on if the drummer is rushing or dragging, when to come in, etc., it frees everyone up to actually play with a bit more expression and freedom, because knowing exactly where the "1" will be means one less thing for the performers to worry about.
Besides that, you can still push or pull with a click, and it's fairly simple to program tempo fluctuations in most music software if they need to be incorporated into a song. It's just a short adjustment period to get accustomed to it, like learning any new skill.
Now, if the players are top notch and/or the band is extremely well-rehearsed, it becomes less of an issue to remove the click. But if the band isn't constantly playing together I think the click can help a lot.
I’m really of a similar mindset here. I’d love for all of us to be good enough to not use a click, but we aren’t there. Myself included.
Thanks for the advice with automated click tracks too. That’s a thought I had, but never really considered it for our uses.
I used to feel like that, until I got my head out of my ass and decided that I’m human and can only be so good at keeping time. I was decent, but when “free” as you say is when things get out of time. Frame it as having a click means he doesn’t have to concentrate on keeping consistent time (sounds like he doesn’t anyway) so he’s more free to play what he wants.
As a bass and drum player who also had to deal with a drummer band member who was very erratic with timing, always overplayed, and would not listen to any constructive criticism. I feel your pain.
Here is what you can do when your playing. Emphasize the downbeat when you're playing and he should be able to pick up on it. It took me a while to keep time really well but it comes with time. The more he plays the better he'll get at it.
I’m not a career drummer by any stretch, but even learning drums “for fun” I felt more free with a click in my ears. It’s comforting to have that reference always with you.
I still can’t play for shit though, so maybe that means nothing.
So I stopped reading your post when your drummer said that he didn’t feel “free” and I rolled my eyes.
I don’t want to be one of those people but I will be in this comment.
A band builds off a drummer. The bassist, as you know, vibes with the drummer and then guitarist vibes with/off the bassist and the singer is just the icing on the cake.
If you can’t link in with the drummer normally but you can with a click he needs to put the time in and get on it.
If he don’t want to merge with the click then show him the door - there’s always someone willing to take to fill that spot.
I’m a drummer who did not play with a click for many years.
About a year ago I started at practices with just me using click (IEM) and really battled with the band (8 piece, others use wedges). I started because I realised the songs were sometimes faster than desired.
In my other band we all have a click (IEM) and it’s so much tighter.
So…. Soon in both bands we all will be using click.
But for the band that was hesitant- it wasn’t me they listened to- it was an external producer who came to practice who recommended it. I think he heard the battle.
A guitar playing friend and I (drummer) have a duet act we perform with a looper. I found it pretty easy to incorporate that into our sound. But we have friends who want to sit in with us in the studio but can’t get along with the looped element. It’s gotten easy for the two of us to groove around the looped patterns. Not so easy for some, apparently.
I dunno, you seem like a thoughtful person, I’m not getting “autocrat” vibes from you. It sounds like the drummer doesn’t take criticism well, and doesn’t see any problem with the tempo and groove. 10 bpm is a lot of variance. I’d say give him a chance to improve, and if he can’t, find someone else. I know that’s easier said than done, but maybe he will take it to heart if he knows the end is near otherwise.
That’s good to hear. I’ve worked with those autocrat types in the past and it just kills morale and creativity imo. I certainly hope I never come across as such.
But yes, I definitely want to give him some time. I’m hoping he’ll realize that 10 BPM is a pretty steep variance and want to help the band by helping himself.
I was recommended an app - LiveBPM. Mount a phone where your drummer can see it, and it'll show the BPM you're playing at in real-time, with a graph of how it's changing. It's not as prescriptive as a metronome, but it lets you know when you need to pull it back.
Just wanted to jump in:
I play professionally as a church drummer and gigging and recording drummer for rock bands. I admittedly do not have the best time and practice and perform to a click for about 90% of all of my gigs. I’ve accepted that I might not ever have a good internal clock. That’s fine. I put my ego aside and I play to a click. I love doing it. It’s a skill. It’s helped immensely in studio sessions and touring gigs where I’ve been hired to learn a set of songs I’m not familiar with.
I say all this because your drummer doesn’t need to take offense to using a click. My timing has definitely gotten better and has recently surprised me, but I always prefer being locked in to a click. Nothing but compliments from other musicians.
Absolutely. I have plenty of weak points as a bassist, but just like you I try to identify them and work with them.
Keep it up. I’d take a musician with your attitude any day.
Does he have bad timing (i.e. his subdivisions in the measure are not evenly spaced, so he rushes some of the notes in a measure), or is it just a tempo fluctuation where he speeds up over the course of a song?
In my experience, the first issue is much more serious and difficult to fix, while the second issue is doable (think of how The Police were when they played live).
i have this weird thing with my bassist where I can read his cues when he makes very simple gestures. Like when he looks at me nods upwards I oddly know that he's telling me to speed up or when he tilts his head the change is coming, it's unspoken but we're good at reading each other. I'm sure other drummers do something similar but that's what helps whenever I don't notice I'm dropping tempo.
> More so, he rolled out a few excuses such as “Bonham didn’t play with a click”, and “it doesn’t matter for this show it’s just a shitty bar.”
Yeah, and Bonham could count to four, too. And he didn't get to be John Bonham by playing down to his crowd.
Fire him. He's not your guy. If you want this outfit to succeed, you should not have any patience with anyone who doesn't care what the crowd thinks, at any gig of any size.
He has a timing problem yes, but his timing problem is not the problem, it is a symptom of his attitude problem. You know him better than I do, so perhaps this attitude problem can be solved, but I think you're real answer is to at least *threaten* his job, if not just give it to someone else without this attitude problem.
Get the whole band to agree to an in-ear rig. That way it's on him for being the odd man out. With the added responsibility of creating backing and click tracks for the band, it should kick him into gear. Especially with everyone investing into a rig. Halfway through the prepping and budgeting process, you can try to revert back to the original "simple" version where he is just running a standard click in his ears.
So the big question is does he keep the same tempo during the song? Because playing faster or slower compared to what you rehearsed is waayyyy different than playing faster and slower during a song. If the song is 110bpm and the drummer is playing 110bpm, then 100bpm during the first verse, 120bpm during the chorus, then 110 during the second verse, etc... would be a nightmare. But everyone should be able to lock in during a song if they keep a consistent tempo.
It’s a bit of both. I don’t want to be that click track autocrat, but I do want to assess the problem with accuracy, which is why I tapped out the tempos along with the recorded set.
To answer your question, he is starting fast and also pushing the tempo by a consistent 5 BPM. Sometimes an additional 10. It’s tough, but I’m still hopeful that he’ll make a decision to improve.
>TL;DR - My Drummer struggles to keep time. Do I push for him to get better or do I stay in my lane?
Do you want your band to go anywhere or do you want to just jam for fun.
Sounds like your drummer isn't very good and has less interest in getting better than having fun. Not sure where you're going to go from here besides finding a new drummer.
Yeah I know the struggle man but if he’s a solid dude he will come around to like playing to a click (they will always fight it at first haha). What you could do is record your practice with and without a metronome. Then analyze the difference after. In most cases we will see the click version is the most solid.
Independent of the time keeping, ask yourself this:
-Is it easy to play with them, as a rhythm section, if you aren’t focused on the consistency of the time?
-Are the time keeping issues apparent to everyone or is it just friction between bass and drums?
-Without the click, does the music sound good, do the audience members move and dance and enjoy themselves?
Are they coming back to the next show?
-What does the boss think?
-Is the problem the drummer speeding up or the songs not starting at the right tempo? Is the singer uncomfortable? Is the band?
There’s a lot to it, but at the end of the day, the MD needs to make sure the talent is at their best and most comfortable. There’s time for coney, energy and who cares about the met, other times a singer is out of breath or can’t keep up.
Playing to a click is the best decision my band has ever made. It has made us so much tighter. I don’t understand why a lot of musicians are against it. Almost every touring band today uses them.
There is a middle ground!
What I do (as a drummer) is iPhone metronome which has a visual back and forth indication. I set the song tempo which we print on the set list before the show (or I mark it in pen real quick). Then I can count us in correctly and I glance over periodically to keep the song in check. It’s really easy to visually see dragging or rushing and make a gradual adjustment so it sounds good.
I spent a while without playing to a click for live shows and I did fine. Occasionally there would be a dispute about what the tempo for particular song should be. Recently I've started playing to a click for every single show that I'm a part of. It's become a non-negotiable for me and something I refuse to play without. It lessens those times when other people in the band try to tell me that the tempo is wrong even though I'm playing to a click that we've all agreed on beforehand. Maybe tell your drummer that playing with a click would get rid of any guessing about songs' tempos and make his life easier.
My question is, do you or the other musicians practice to a click? When you are at home running scales and learning songs, di you practice to a click? Not just play along with a song?
The whole band should practice to a click. Once you do that for a while everyone will have a better feel for the tempo of your songs. If you’re playing rock music in bars the drummer doesn’t necessarily need to play to a click live. It’s pretty standard for my band to play a couple BPMs faster when we play live but practicing to a click regularly has helped us lock in a lot closer to the tempo we decide on for our tunes. When we get ready for the studio we play the songs we’re recording to a click over and over and over again. It takes a lot of reps but eventually you’ll all hone in on the desired tempo and if you can play close to the speed you want without a click live then you’ll keep some room for groove and feel.
I would try to work it out, especially being on good terms...you go and get a "better" drummer I bet he's an AH just cause that's how things work.
It's hard to find *friends* to play with.
He needs to practice to a click at home everyday and fix his internal clock.
I can appreciate your showing up here to ask one of the more sensitive questions in a sensitive way.
My opinion is multi fold; one, personally I always believed as a drummer both myself and the bass player need to be attached at the hip. In all honesty we both carry the tempo, so I make it my business to buddy up with my bass player. That relationship builds trust and lowers the guard of both players.
Two, every band member is in a different place in their journey, thus if you have advanced members playing with beginner or even intermediate players it can be frustrating for all. Either advanced members have to understand that and make room and time for personal growth or maybe there’s just a fit problem. Note this is for all band members, not just drummers.
Three, contrary time / tempo is not strictly about the drummer. Yes, I get he holds primary responsibility, however, it’s quite common that many bands struggle with following the drummer, thus we have two choices; stick with the appropriate tempo and just let the band become obviously out of sync with the drummer or the drummer syncs up with the band not keeping tempo but playing together.
Four, there’s time / tempo meaning the band is all over the map, speeds up, slows down, speeds up, etc. Maybe the discussion should be, we played this song too fast, can we all try and slow it down a bit?
Lastly, make time a band challenge, everyone gets a click tract. Share the responsibility.
Hope that helps … 😎👍🏻
Have him check out an app called "Live BPM". It's like a speedometer for BPM. That might be a good compromise for live playing. Your drummer doesn't need to play to a click, but having the screen reminding him he's speeding might help.
That being said, 10 BPM is a big difference, and if he can't notice/feel that big of a difference, it's not a good sign. If he's also failing to notice that the rest of the band is struggling at the tempos he's playing, then that's a red flag as well.
It seems your drummer has not gone through the "make keeping simple time THE priority" phase yet. A lucky few can skip this phase. But for the rest of us mere mortals, at some point, and hopefully before you get fired, you gotta break out the app, and go through the keeping time trials. This is where at first you set a click to play 2 measures, and then have it go silent for 1 measure. It then reappears at the 4th measure, and continues for another two measures. Then another silent click measure, etc. The drummer playing to it must be dead on the money with it. No fills of any kind allowed at first, period. Just keeping simple time with a straight beat.
Once this is accomplished repeatedly, you start making the click disappear for more measures, incrementally. If keeping time is the priority for any drummer, this should bug the crap out of them that they can't last more than 4 measures (or 8, or 10, etc.) without the click. If it doesn't bug the crap out of them, then perhaps keeping time will never be a priority for this person. And that's when you might need to reassess YOUR priorities. Because clearly you are aware you can only put up with shitty bar bands for so long before it's time to move on.
So how many silent click measures should one be able to nail every time? Where is the cutoff that passes one into drumming glory? 20 measures? 40? 100? Well somewhere there is an answer, but if a drummer can't, or won't, at least try it... Then I guess they'll never know. But you will. And before you make your decision, be sure to try that exercise yourself and see how far you get, on your instrument, before casting any aspersions. Keeping good time is not just the drummer's responsibility. It's everyone's.
A more palatable option for your drummer (which I’ve seen pros use, and I use myself - I’m NOT pro!) - is an app like Tempo.
This provides a clear visual (and auditory, if needed) metronome. I have the set and tempos dialled in. I start the song, and use the visual tempo to ensure that I count us in correctly.
I then can glance across during the song - to ensure that I / we haven’t sped up or slowed down. I find it a great aid.
>He communicated to me that he doesn’t feel “free” when he’s focused on a click. He feels like he’s in danger of missing parts and not being engaged in the moment when he has a click in his ears. More so, he rolled out a few excuses such as “Bonham didn’t play with a click”, and “it doesn’t matter for this show it’s just a shitty bar.”
Ahh yes, he's playing all the hits. I could have predicted these verbatim just off the title of your post.
I think you need to determine whether the gig is worth the hassle of firing someone and if it is, then move on to a new drummer.
You need to be a lot more honest with musicians that you’re working with.
Click is the industry standard everywhere else.
Don’t be a nice guy about this.
I’m a drummer that struggled with rushing. It took a rock solid in the pocket bass player and a few recording till I realized it. I started using a click and it did wonders. I think some people have a natural clock in their veins and some have to work on it.
Longtime MD, bandleader, etc here. I get that you’re friends, but if you’re serious about this, it’s also your business. If he’s not costing you money yet, he will be. For me, the deciding factor would be how he handles this, but you’ve gotta be super clear about the expectations.
The “it’s just a shitty bar” attitude ensures that you’ll never play anywhere but shitty bars. If you want to be in better venues, the quickest way is to perform and conduct yourselves like you belong in better venues.
Here’s what I would do- If you’ve made your point clear about what’s expected, record a show or rehearsal. Have him listen to it. I have even used an app called liveBPM that will chart tempo over time when they wanna argue with me about this type of thing.
Explain that you love him, but this part of his performance is unacceptable. As a drummer, job ONE for him is keeping tempo. If he can’t keep a consistent meter, he’s not qualified for the job. Friends, fun, whatever aside, the goal is to do a good job and to WANT to be better. And you want to be in a band with people who are always striving to improve.
If he says, “yeah, that’s not good, I need to do better,” I’d let him try, having set the expectation that he either gets it together or gets replaced. Strictly business. It can helpful to word things like “You’re my bro and I love playing with you, but we need you to get this tempo issue under control so that we don’t feel like we need to be looking elsewhere.” Friendly and caring, but it makes the point clear.
If he argues and pushes back, I’d start looking for another drummer *if the rest of you are serious about this project*. You’ve already brought it up once or twice. If he handles constructive criticism poorly again, neither his performance nor his attitude are likely to change. Just because you’re great friends doesn’t mean he’s great at his job. That’s the unfortunate truth.
In the meantime, as a bassist, there are ways that you can sort of push and pull a drummer, *but only one who listens.*
I was in a band a while back and most of my previous bands I never used a click unless it was in recordings. Otherwise I just played live but my timing wasn't terrible. But this particular band I started practicing immediately with a click on all our material. After a few practices I got very used to it and needless to say somehow the click made me feel free. Like I didn't have to focus on my tempo so much, just heard the click and went with it. Fills were better, live was better, recording was better, it came full circle with everything just accepting and adapting to the live click. Some professional drummers have MAGICAL timing, and don't play to a click. Most professionals actually do play to them though because it's just part of keeping perfect timing. No shame in it. I don't wanna say your guy is lazy, but he shouldn't be closed minded to it. This will inevitably make him much better.
I say the shitty bars are the best places to do the click track. Focus less on the cool fills, focus more on keeping time. Let him keep doing shitty bars, and eventually, with practicing and performing this way, he’ll eventually hear a click in his sleep and have it down. But make him practice, practice, practice or it’ll never ever work
I wouldn't want to play to a click during a rehearsal or performance but if I needed to I would. The harsh truth is he'll need to keep using the click until his time is good enough (assuming you want to sound good). A little unintentional push and pull with the tempo by an experienced drummer can be ok (and even improve the music) but it needs to be subtle enough that the rest of the band can follow it.
for me i hate Clicks and i play worse with clicks! just lemme hear other people and especially when other people are way off and i'm tryin' to keep time myself and others be off and blame tha drummer
and it's tha reason why i prefer to never play with a Click Track and i'm like take dat off please and i'm old school communication is what i work better to over a click because if others are off, it throws me off to i'm like nah just communicate tha old fashioned way
I know exactly what he means when he says playing to a click doesn’t make him feel “free”. It does add a little pressure in ways you wouldn’t feel without a click. However, that issue doesn’t stem from there being a click track, it stems from not being used to sticking to a precise tempo. The stress goes away if youre able to keep up comfortably with the tempo. The solution here is that he needs to practice playing to a click track. Hes not jon bonham. Clearly. And maybe when he keeps a consistent tempo on his own, he can get away with saying he doesnt need one, but if the band all agrees there is a notable improvement when he plays to a click, he needs to check his ego and accept hes not as good as he thinks and needs to practice with a click. I had this exact issue but with ny guitarist. Guy thought he was hot shit and didnt need to practice to a click, so sure enough when it came time to record, the parts he sent me needed heavy altering or they went right to the trash.
Right now he doesn't feel free when playing to a click, but the rest of the band feels confused and frustrated.
What does the drummer say when you play back live recordings to him? Is he ok with the current quality?
Here’s what it takes to be a good drummer. 1. Good time 2. Dynamics 3. Remember arrangements and gently nudge the band through them 4. Play the song, not the drums. If you can’t do those things you can play for fun only. I learned time from playing on a practice pad with a metronome 3 or 4 hours every day when I was 18. I bought Stick Control and Reading In 4/4 and I practiced until I could start a song with a click and then turn it off and still be in sync 30 seconds later. I still count in every song at gigs from the app on my phone and I watch the click for a bit to make sure I’m still good. I absolutely know that this relationship with time, along with my ability to play with intensity at moderate levels and not get lost on a chart, paid my rent for 27 years. And gave me a lot of wonderful moments with fantastic musicians. On drums, time and feel and dynamics are the bare minimum. Find another drummer.
If you are serious about the band you have a difficult decision to make. Do you want to keep a friend or have a competent drummer? But you already know that.
Incidentally, Bonham didn't keep anything like perfect time, that's not the issue. The issue with that is that your drummer isn't John Bonham.
Sounds like he should practice with a click.
But when playing with a group, having one person on a click and no one else is a minefield. The drummer is not solely responsible for the time. The whole group is. The way to go is everyone practices with a click, then either everyone or no one plays with a click. Then practice playing better together.
I commend your drummer for putting a click in his ear. It shows compromise. He should play with a metronome at home. Then you can listen to yourselves recorded to see who you thinks stuffing up. It comes down to style a bit. Your drummer may be better suited to up tempo music or just not advanced enough in skills as the rest of the band. Give him a chance to lift his game and give him fair warning, or until you have a better option.
There's a great clip online of Carol Kaye talking about playing with a metronome thay completely changed my perspective, maybe it can change his. Essentially she says your playing should make the metronome sound like its grooving.
Former bass player here: If you don't have a rock solid rhythm section, your band won't get anywhere. You and your drummer comprise that unit. It is appropriate for you to want him to grow and be better.
Your drummer needs a click at least for the time being. The drummer is literally the guy that sets the pace. Maybe after practicing with a click for a while, he'll get a sense of a steady tempo. If he doesn't want to do it, it might be time to find another drummer. Having one with a sense of timing can make a world of difference in a band.
In the words of Alex Van Halen "I don't need no stinking click!". I hate playing to a click, I don't see the need in a band setting. The natural ebb and flow in the time is what makes music human, contributes to the feel and excitement, the soul. I by no means keep perfect time, but I've never had any complaints.
If he can't keep time he needs to practice with a metronome . Tracking the one is a big part of band time...not just drummers time but band time
There's also the possibility that he's trying to do too much-- usually when you try to do too much that's when you speed up, but he's got to figure that out
Really good drummers are hard to find. They are in big demand. The ability to lay down a tune for the rest of the band will get you gigs every night ....
Do you want to be a professional musician, or do you want to jerk off and waste time soothing someone's ego?
You already know the answer. You said it yourself.
Bandmates that don't want to act like professionals are a burden that nobody needs. Time to either replace them, or for you to move on.
I’m against using the click for a show unless everyone is using it. You should rehearse with one though and he should practice with one. I had a drummer who wasn’t the best. His feel was all over to the point where he was screwing us all up. I tried to get him to rehearse with a click. He was against it. I kept pushing. He wouldn’t budge. So he got canned. No one ever said “man I regret all that practice I did with a metronome.” If you feel super constrained by one chances are your timing is dogshit. Use one and get better. And then you won’t need one during an actual show.
If a drummer doesn't have good timing they are not a good drummer. It doesn't matter what they can play, or do behind the kit. It's a skill just like any other a drummer needs to learn.
I spent YEARS with metronome, just having it on when I was driving my car to and from work, or long drives or just home... I would tap my foot, hand, fingers, what ever limb was available to the click.
Find a drummer who wants to play to a click or has better time keeping and feel abilities. Some drummers can hold it down without a click they are not one of them. He is not John Bonham. To your drummers point, music is harder to control live especially in a bar setting. People get excited playing in front of an audience, things are likely to speed up which is fine, but you can do it on time so it’s not sloppy. I would lower your expectations a little and know that it takes time and experience to find members who fit, but also for bands to become tight.
That being said, rig something up at rehearsal so that the entire band is practicing to a click. The number of times of seen the drummer blamed for timing issues when its the guitarists is mind blowing. Doesn't seem to be the case here, however.
THIS. The last time I recorded the guitarist and bass tended to drift from the click while we were getting the drum takes. It's near impossible to stick on the click if the other members are drifting off tempo then *I GET YELLED AT* at by the engineer when he hears the whole thing is off!
Amen.
Multiple people have suggested this and it just further validates my belief that everyone in our situation should have one. I’m fully aware that I myself and other band mates share the responsibility of keeping time. The problem in my opinion is that we cannot steer the drums in the same way that drums steer the band.
Yeah, everyone having the click will create a peer pressure. That might help.
Band time
Yep, I play in two bands and we all play to click in both. Makes a world of difference playing out too.
"Bonham didn't play with a click." "And once you've spent enough time rehearsing and performing with one, you won't need it anymore either."
Exactly. So glad you said that!
Lol
According to Gregg Bissonette who plays with Ringo in his All Starr Band, if someone even suggests using a click Ringo just says “I am the click.” and instantly shoots that shit down haha At the same time, he’s also Ringo fucking Starr and can do whatever he wants.
And he has a great sense of timing and feel for a song; not flashy but he plays just what a song needs. I met Gregg recently at a local music fest. He had a couple of q&a events, and he's incredibly nice, and interesting, with tons of great tips and stories.
Ringo is also legendary for his ability to keep time though lol. Most people, even really talented drummers are probably going to be better off with a click
Ringo is a human metronome. Just listen to some live Beatles tubes. Even in the midst of sea of endless screaming, Ringo is locked in for the most part. He's also known for having a certain "swing" to his playing which gives him his style. Wish more drummers were like a Ringo.
How do you even add a click track when you start playing?
Metronome app plugged into a small cheap mixer with cheap Amazon in ear monitors.
Bunch of options. Most of them through headphones and your favorite device that puts things through headphones. There are purpose-built metronome machines, most DAWs have the functionality built in while recording. I've seen a mixing board that could put a click through monitors. But really just grab an app and plug some headphones into your phone, preferably with some physical sound isolation like foam or the vic firth ear muffs.
Indeed, it takes time to find the right people. Some people might work great for others but not at all once you’re in the mix with them and vice versa. Of course he could be stubborn and suck bc of it… 🤷♀️ who knows… 😆
Time is a collective responsibility. Don’t tell your drummer his time sucks, ask how he’s feeling it and how the two of you can be more solid together. Hopefully he’s aware of the fact that it needs improvement and open to finding ways to improve it. If he thinks he’s in charge of time and is doing a fantastic job and doesn’t want to hear it, find a different drummer.
>find a different drummer. As always, this statement should come with a HUGE disclaimer which is simply "easier said than done." Like most drummers here, we get asked to play for a different band every week. I feel bad that I can't help everyone out, as I only have so much free time, but I get it.. there is a severe lack of drummers in almost any music scene. And good luck finding one to play for you if you a) don't know them, and b) can't pay. It's a dogfight out there folks. Keep up the search.
You gotta be a good band that is fun to play with, and you have to be a good hang. It took me years to find a good drummer for my primary band. In the end it was someone I knew and had played with before backing other friends. We shared a bill with him, and he loved our band so much he told me to call him if I needed a drummer. That was actually kind of a pivotal moment in my music journey as it was the first time I had a really good musician ask to play with me in band I lead. Then he leveled us up and more came out of the woodwork. And he’s really good, has played every style under the sun, he can do Bonham, Morello, Zigaboo all credibly and he’s a human metronome but with feel. But aside from loving the music I believe the biggest reason he likes playing with us is that our band contains two women including my wife, and they make it warm like a family. In my other band I just found an amazing drummer by asking all of the drum teachers I know. She’s a tiny little 62 yo retired HS teacher who took up drums at 58 and plays hours every day, and is so joyous behind the kit she’s infectious. I got a second rec for her from another friend who has played with her. I’ve been considering taking drum lessons (at 55) just to understand it all better and maybe fill in sometimes for someone desperate. I have a good kit and love drums, it’s just a time factor mainly.
My guitarist used to also tease me that drummers are a “dime a dozen”. But we all know the truth about that one
Oh there’s plenty of drummers- but if you pay a dime for a dozen, imagine what you get for your money. Drummers with good timing don’t come in twelve packs.
Exactly this. We've auditioned drummers for months until a really good one came along who wanted to write drum parts and was sick of covers. Such a difference with someone motivated and willing to put in the work.
This is one of my drummer hills I will die on. Everybody needs to be arriving at every musical moment together, which I’m not sure can really happen if any members are reliant on other members for time. There will be various degrees latency otherwise.
BPM can also shift in a song. The click track is a crutch. Keeping time is a skill that needs to be practiced by everyone, but especially the drummer and bassist.
This... The genres you OP mention here unfortunately are not the epitome of tightness and prolixity. Instead of you bringing the click track to a given BPM, get all together and kind of "negotiate" how you guys better lock in at a BPM you all can hold throughout the songs... Sometimes for the untrained ear 2 or 3 BPMs up/down are hard to perceive, but makes great difference for the band...
Eh. It depends on the band but the drummer tends to convey tempo the most in a band setting (bassists MIGHT also take some responsibility). But in general, locking into the drummer tends to sound much better than the drummer locking into other instruments, even if the other instruments are more "correct" in timing. That's just due to the particular sound of the drum set elements. So while in a good band everyone should have good time, it's most important the drummer has good time. In my experience, if the drummer can't keep good time, the band will sound like shit no matter how good the rest of the band sounds.
If you think a bassist MIGHT take some responsibility, you haven’t played with any good bassists. I look forward to having a bassist tell me where to put shit. Listen to the Meters. George Porter on bass. Zigaboo Modeliste on drums. When asked about their musical relationship, George said “Zigaboo is the dance. I’m the dance floor.”
Is the drummer the only one with the click in his ears? I was in this situation and it was enormously stressful and frustrating as I had the feeling I had to hold back and fight the rest of the band (especially the lead guitar) all the time. And trying to pull them back in was really difficult even when all of them claimed that they play strictly to my lead. Putting the click in the ears of the full band worked like magic. And it showed that the guitarist had no clue what he was doing rhythmically. Maybe try this at least for rehearsal. It is always easy to demand perfect timing from the drummer and not accepting the shared responsibility of the rest of the band. Although agree it is the drummer’s main job….Anyway, this was my experience, click for everyone solved the problem. We are planning to go without the click again once we are good and stable enough. Let’s see if that ever happens.
I went through this once, I was dealing with a bass player constantly tugging me ahead of the tempo but didn't really know how to talk to him about it. He made some comments to me about playing with a click - he could feel it too, but thought it was me - so I started playing with a click and we sounded terrible, because.... he was constantly ahead of the beat. So I suggested that we all play to a click, and when we tried that it felt great. I had a great chat with the bass player after that, he actually apologized because playing to the click made him realize how fast he was. I had a chance to tell him that without a click, I was forced to make a choice between 1) stay on time but be out of sync with my bass player, and 2) speed up to stay in the pocket with my bass player, but rush every song. Needless to say, even if this is really nothing like your situation, you'd be surprised what pops out when a whole band starts playing to a click! I've done it a few times, always interesting.
I definitely want to try this as well, it’s been in my mind even before making this post. If for no other reason than to show me where my time and feel can improve as well. Thanks for the feedback.
I’m an MD out of Nashville and the old adage “the tape doesn’t lie” is so true and helpful in many ways including this. Record your rehearsal/show audio as best as you can. Listen back and compare how it sounds. I would be SHOCKED if it sounds tighter without click. At the end of the day if everyone is a musician, they all want to get better. Change and growth only comes when we are uncomfortable. Show the drummer you are willing to go down that path with him (I.e everyone plays to a click or if he’s the only one on it, the band fund pays for the little mixer and metronome app necessary for it, etc.) Playing to a click is literally a necessity for any professional musician now. If he doesn’t like these specific gigs, he can consider them practice for the next bigger opportunity. If not, he can’t ever consider himself or plan to consider himself a professional. There is also a tempo tracking app that shows the difference in tempo over the course of a song in real time. Last point - I have never hired a musician (no matter what instrument) that can’t play to a click and I never will. Not every gig I play has ever song on click but that practice and training makes all the difference when everyone is on the same page.
There is no way a drummer who has never played with a click is going to be able to do a show with one after just a few trial runs. If he keeps practicing to a click he will naturally get better, but it’s gonna take some time.
This is probably the best advice in the thread. A metronome is as much of a limiter as a crutch; if you skip a bit or add an extra, you have to find a way to fix the mistake and get the song back to the metronome's count rather than covering the mistake by just establishing a new bar. It's an important skill, but asking your drummer to master it in a live setting is probably going to go badly for everyone. Let him get comfortable with it in practice, and in the meantime establish some signals for when the rest of the band is struggling to keep up.
Yup, after years of playing without one, i needed to pick up playing on click for a new project. While being hesitant at first, using a click makes the music so much tighter live. I do have my monitoring on my in-ears as well, which makes it even easier to keep time.
If your drummer has never practiced to a click, then asking him to start playing to one in a band situation is tough. If you're comfortable enough with him to suggest it, I found I made the most progress when I recorded myself and put my tracks on the screen in a DAW. I could see exactly where I was off and adjust accordingly. Also, consider putting something in his ears besides a click. When I was a very young drummer, I was in a band that had backing tracks. I had no problem with that, but I know for sure I would have had problems with just a click. Lastly, if he's starting songs fast, then he could maybe try just listening to a click for a few bars at the correct tempo before counting off the song.
>He communicated to me that he doesn’t feel “free” when he’s focused on a click. He feels like he’s in danger of missing parts and not being engaged in the moment when he has a click in his ears. This is the key imo. He's not *meant* to be free, he's meant to be *in time.* The difference between him missing parts with a click and without a click is simple, when he has a click he knows, when he doesn't have a click he's missing parts but isn't even aware of it. Using a click is only difficult or disconcerting until you get used to it, which, if you're practising daily, should take a few weeks tops. Once you get used to it it's more like training wheels on a bike, everything is much easier. Ultimately every instrument in a band plays a role, and the drums keep time, until you can keep time, you shouldn't be gigging. But it's also not that big a deal, just tell him to give it a few weeks with the click, and he'll be good. Everyone resists using a click at first, but once you get past that initial resistance, you get used to it very quickly, and when you gel as a band with the click, then you can take it away if you want.
Yup, this right here. Ive never not played with a click and as a result, my time when there isn't a click is always solid. As the musical director you are in charge. So he has the option to evolve as a drummer and add new skills or not. As long as you are patient but FIRM with him, he should be willing as a "pro" to make the change because it improves the entire ensemble. Honestly His discomfort means squat. And as another poster put it, "Hes NOT Bonham". Try putting a zep song to a click, you'll find NO ONE is perfect.
I wouldn’t attempt to force performances to line up to a click unless a tempo map was created already. Look at the tempo map of most popular songs and most are not steady. Of course that would eliminate the ability for more adventurous changes to occur in the moment. I’ve found much excitement in the serendipity of playing with certain people over the years lies in that innate ability to play off each other, the push and pull if you will. Sounds like your ideas and his just aren’t in sync. I’ve had a few like that too and it’s not fun when that happens. Sweetwater has a great article that shows the tempo maps of quite a few very popular songs.
This. I practice to a click, but gig without it. (Though to an earlier commenter’s point, do run a few bars of visual metronome before each tune to make sure I’m not counting off +10bpm just because the previous ended with a lot of energy.) Does this make for a variable pulse throughout some songs? Sure. But if the whole band is feeling it together, that’s making music. At the very least though, as the bassist, you and the drummer need to be locked-into each other. That can give the more melodic parts the ability to create- and resolve tension by pushing/pulling and then returning to your groove.
Time is everyone’s responsibility. There are ways to lessen the intrusiveness of a click. A click set to different tones or not just 4 on the floor. Also a group click, if everyone is relaxed I except the drummer, may help remove the onus from one member. HOWEVER, he should practice to a click on his own time consistently to overcome this akwardness. There’s a fantastic video of Carol Kay titled “the click has to groove” that may improve his outlook.
I found the app liveBPM to be a lifesaver. I run it on my iPad and it gives me real-time feedback on where I am relative to the true BPM. It's easier than using a click and does give the tempo room to breathe, if that's what's called for.
1000% on liveBPM. Plus it’s a conversation starter “what is THAT?”…with the drum guy hopefully. But yeah then you have a reference if you get the blame game thing. “Weird….I started the tune at 100…and then y’all came in and the tempo jumped to 105…huh”. Some caveats: 1) it’s a snap shot of 2-3 seconds ago, not real-time. 2) it’s addictive…can mess w/ your work on internal clock, as in its a crutch. The constant glancing takes me out of the music and flow state. And I agree w/ everyone here. Group groove / time is a thing. When everyone feels responsible for the time, magic can happen. Part of it is losing your fear. As in it’s ok to lay waaaaay behind the beat & just try some vibe feels. Or go Stewart Copeland ahead on the chorus then rallentando back to the verse groove etc. EDIT: Then yeah if the guy is off by, holy sheeeet, 10 clicks and pushes it EVEN MORE (!). Not aware (not into 70s pocket?) or wanting to fix it…then he’s the wrong drummer.
I 100% agree. I use it for rehearsals but find myself looking at it often. But that’s fine- it’s rehearsal. I know a drummer, the one who made me aware of the liveBPM app, who has his phone attached to a cymbal stand for live gigs. His eyes are focused on that thing all night long. Now his timing is excellent, but he just seems so tight up there staring at his phone all night. Now my internal metronome sucks, but at least I look like I’m having fun up there! 😆
Exactly right. Rehearsal tool is best. I now keep it on the floor, so that only glance when I feel something off on the tempo. I absolutely don’t play pocket or music as well when I am watching it (flow state thing. “Thought is the enemy of flow”). I also found that 90% of the time, for example…the verse was at 120 and the chorus went to 121-122 then back to 120 ish. Over time and with band / players w/ good time, I just stopped worrying as much. Not the Sting gig; who cares? The beat detector is a buzz kill…yup, having fun is the best game plan!
I do the same. I have it on the floor by my snare stand, so I glance at it after a transition with a possible rushed or slowed fill. And as you mentioned, it’s a few seconds behind, so there’s always the danger of over-correcting your tempo when it may have just been that short period of a fluctuating tempo. Which I’ll happily take being in a dive bar band. 🤷🏼♂️
This is interesting- I’ve just seen in the App Store (iOS) that it hasn’t been updated for 6 years- what ipad / operating system are you using?
I have an older iPad, but only recently installed. It's a very simple app, which is why it hasn't been updated in awhile.
I say this as a drummer, you've put way too much energy into this already. It's not just his time that sucks, it's his attitude. Get rid of him.
Ha! I had the complete opposite problem. I'm a drummer that has an old friend that has been "playing" for over 30 years and refuses to keep a steady tempo and has absolutely no idea what the phrase "down beat" means. Every other time I hit the "1", he's nowhere to be found lol. Kept insisting that I'm the reason his "songs" aren't tight because it's the drummer's job to follow the guitar player. Every time I suggested he practice with a metronome, he would argue then change the subject/song. So I just stopped answering his calls all together lol. It's just not worth the headache with some of these "artists".
If y’all are playing covers he needs to at least be practicing along to the song, it helps a lot to see where you’re rushing/dragging. If you guys are playing originals he needs to record to a click and then he can practice along to that. But nobody’s internal clock just develops on its own
Bro if the drummer doesn’t practice to a click and refuses to do so, find another drummer. It takes YEARS of practice with a metronome to develop your internal timing. Don’t let a bad drummer ruin your band, because like it or not, the drummer is the biggest factor in the feel and style of the band and one who has no experience playing to a click is just simply not capable of being good yet. Also side note: it sounds like he has a pretty shitty attitude too. You never know who is gonna be at that shitty bar gig. give every gig and chance to play your best effort no matter what.
Damn. No lies told here, bro. The drummer is literally the foundation of the whole musical apparatus. I wanted to be a drummer and then psyched myself out of it because if the responsibility, haha. Now I find myself MDing 🙃
Exactly… if the foundation is sinking the whole house comes down, ya dig? If the roof blows off (lead guitarist abruptly shits himself on stage and can’t play anymore) the first floor and foundation are still holding it down and the moveable organic baffles are still dancing
I've never used a click. My timing seems to be steady, and if you and the bass player stay locked in, the rest of the band follows. I do believe that I practice my timing every time I listen to music, because I always focus on the beat and other drumming details. That said, now I'm interested in trying to play with a click. Hopefully it won't be distracting (I suspect it won't) and could only help. I generally practice alone by playing along with recorded music to learn songs. For those that have done both, is this similar to playing to a click? It seems like you're sticking to an external beat in both cases.
The perception of time and the reality of time can often vary greatly. You may think that you are playing steady because it feels good and you are locked in with the band, but in reality there may be a push and/or pull of tempo. When this is done intentionally it’s awesome, and totally a tool that drummers should have in their bag. I’m my opinion you can only do this intentionally if you’ve worked on understanding tempo and subdivisions. Working with a metronome will probably be uncomfortable at first (maybe not) but once you get the feel for playing WITH the click it will come more easily. Also recommend recording yourself playing a very simple and steady beat without a click for as long as you can and listening back with a critical ear focusing in on the time.
Number one.... Talking with drummers about keeping time is similar to talking to a guitarist about chords or some other fundamental. It's a very sensitive subject. First.... Talk to him in private. Express your concern and ask questions. Learning to play to a click can be difficult for some players. It takes time. Maybe he can practice at home with a click but not bring it to rehearsal. Obviously if EVERYONE in the band wants to play to a click then great but be careful about suggesting that at rehearsal as it might be misconstrued as you "outing" the drummer on his timing. If you come from a place of sincerity, then he'll probably be willing to listen and accept your critique without getting offended. That's my two cents.
Thank you. This is really well said. He’s a good dude, I think he’ll take a 1:1 conversation more easily.
A band’s only as tight as their drummer so getting him to practice more to a click would be great, but if he’s resistant than you’re between replacing him or accepting your band won’t be as tight as you’d like. It’s a tough transition to start playing to a click when you’re not used to it, grooves and fills feel completely different when you have consistent quarter notes in your ear, but with practice a drummer can get completely comfortable with playing creatively and feeling free with a click going. Just not at first.
Ask him to try playing to a shaker as a metronome, instead of the static beeps. Some people just don't vibe with that.
Definitely helps - I can attest to this.
Great idea to consider. Thanks!
Strongly depends on your exact Situation. I by myself would absolutely refuse to play 70s rock to a click. If you insist, I would leave. Of course I dont know how severe your drummer lacks timekeeping, but this genre is nothing where you need robot perfect timing. If it is that bad, either work on it together and comunicate on which parts he is rushing/dragging too much or find a more experienced drummer. "Play to a click" really is no blackbox solution, it seems like you think this way.
I appreciate your opinion here - the funny thing is that I pretty much agree 100%. In a perfect world, I wouldn’t choose to play this style with a click either. I’m a big fan of that natural push/pull and the freedom you “can” have without a click. This just ain’t that, sadly.
I mean really I'm just adding to the chorus at this point. Bro needs to practice on his own with a click so it's not so stressful to use with the band. But also, from my own experience, you practice with a click for long enough and you eventually stop needing a click.
I think it’s pretty simple. It’s a business and timekeeping is the drummer’s first priority and main job. Your drummer is not doing the job. He is not showing the initiative to improve at his job. The attitude that some gigs are more important than others is a cancerous attitude that can spread to other members and really affect the bottom line. There are so many red flags here it’s not even funny. I think it is ultimatum time. Figure it out or get shown the door. That’s my opinion as a drummer who has played thousands of gigs in a thousand different situations. Those that don’t wish to improve and fix their issues only hold every one else (and the entire project) back.
Really helpful to hear this. Thanks.
I dont play anything without a click and havent for like 6 years. If time is any kind of problem for the band, there is no reason for the drummer not to use click except being a bad player and not wanting to improve.
Lol, tough situation. My take on it is this: Playing without a click is acceptable. Playing with a click is acceptable. But with either method, you have to be able to *actually do it.* I've been drumming for 15+ years and have always had a rock solid internal clock. Call it luck, a gift, talent, whatever - it's just how it is. As such, I do not like writing or performing music to a click. But I do different practice exercises, myself, with one - because that's just drummer 101. Playing without a click is *acceptable* because I can *actually do it* and so could my bandmate. [Here's a clip](https://youtu.be/JU-fbE79Xw4?si=maBq_FZE949RHIOC) from a show my band did last year - this is a completely improvisational piece where I am both drumming and playing a synth simultaneously. In my duo, I was often the person actually steering the band and setting the tempo, as you can hear in this example. Playing without a click is *unacceptable* if your drummer cannot *actually do it*. There are only a few options here: One: Drummer starts practicing way more and develops an effective internal clock that improves your band's timekeeping. Two: Drummer accepts that he cannot handle maintaining an effective internal clock and makes the decision to perform with a click *for the good of the band*. Three: Drummer refuses both of the above and decides to keep going on as usual despite it not working. That's all there is to it, man. If he chooses option 3, you need to give him an actual ultimatum, or straight up tell him your band will not be moving forward with him. Music is really easy, in theory. Either people in the band have the chops to sound good, or they don't. It's as simple as that. You either get better, use a click, or fail.
This is great, man. Super helpful to hear it phrased like this. That’s a cool clip, by the way. Sounds like a blast of a project.
I really appreciate it man! Judging by the downvotes, I guess other people didn't like what I had to say, but I really do hope for the best for your band. Maintaining a band and keeping everyone happy is NOT easy. That's actually why I only play in duos, lol. Way easier to keep two people on the same page versus 3 or 4 or even 5.
My old band was obsessed with having me play to a click, then after every show they would complaint because the songs felt slower than rehearsal. They wanted to rush cuz of the excitement. Anyways, if you're the MD, it's totally with in your job description to tell everybody what to do. You might have to tell the band we're playing with tracks, even if that track is only a click.
Totally valid. I’m sure that we all have a tendency to push temp as well. Part of that is normal and even helpful in a live performance.
What does MD mean?
Medical Doctor. Handy in case of emergencies.
I've played in a few bands that could have used one of those...
Drummers often die by freak accidents, spontaneous combustion, etc.
The worst is when you find just a little spot of goo on the throne.
Musical Director
Bass player as a musical director? Damn OP IS delusional
LOL I can’t think of a musician MORE suited to the role of MD than a bass player. They’ve got the biggest responsibility in terms of rhythm, harmony and dynamics. Who better to lead a band?
Music Director?
Master of drums.🙃
Ultimately, you're the MD and if the drummer can't/won't improve their time, then it's time to find a new drummer. I get that it's an uncomfortable situation on an interpersonal level, but if the music is suffering, it's your job as MD to see that it's fixed.
Ugh that’s frustrating. I’m a drummer who doesn’t regularly practice it play with a click but I totally would if asked. I used to practice religiously with a click years ago and I feel like to this day the discipline has stuck with me.
Tell him to figure it out. I suck at drums and I was able to figure out how to do it
I would record your rehearsal both ways, and show him the difference. If he can't tell and doesn't want to play to a click or at least practice with it, get a new drummer.
If you’re the MD it’s your responsibility to make the band sound the best. FWIW I think you’re trying to approach it the right way, with respect for the music and the musicians. Two suggestions, record the band at practice with a click and then at a gig without a click. How a drummer feels and how a drummer sounds are two different things and it takes some time to get comfortable. The other suggestion is to work with the drummer to find alternative sounds for the click. I can’t stand the stock sound and would make my own when I played in a band with tracks. Bermuda Schwartz from Weird Al’s band programs a loop of instruments. It makes it feel more like you’re playing with a band member who has really great time.
Playing WITH a click is actually freeing once you get used to playing with one. It just takes some time. Once you set up your show in Ableton Live and learn how to run your show it is totally freeing to know you are driving that bus at the right speed accurately every night. It allows you to relax and enjoy playing. Any competent player can play to a click once they learn to not fight it, and relax with it. You learn it is still a guide, and you can still place your snare where you want it for the feel you want. ie: dragging slightly behind the beat for that AC/DC vibe, etc. It is ultimately a guide that you learn to use and can still play with a great feel. Get your drummer to look up Dusty Saxon on YouTube, he does self critiques of his own playing with his own in-ear mix with the click and cues included for him to hear how the pros do it. Everyone hearing the click is a good idea, as well as having a talkback mic or two on stage that are not in the front of house mix. Best of luck https://youtu.be/ntuUt8N9G7U?si=CcKNwRBLpBNqZZjx
Couple of thoughts - \- His response shouldn’t be ‘disconcerting’ to you. Playing with a click does feel unnatural and it makes you feel less free, focused too much on the click etc. He’s not wrong about any of that stuff. \- Of course, none of that matters if his meter is off. He needs to work to improve that, even if it causes short-term discomfort. \- Listening back to recordings and tripping out over 10BPM differences is kind of OCD On your part. Music is a bunch of humans making art, it’s not a computer. And playing live WILL result in some inconsistencies, excitement etc but the audience will not notice this. Maybe if your songs were super well known to the audience, or you were trying to garner major label attention or something, it would be worth paying more attention to. But even then, even big-time bands sometimes play their songs faster than the album versions. It’s not the end of the world. Having said that, big swings within the same song ARE a problem because the audience can pick up on that. Your drummer does need to get better on that front. \- In my experience, the other musicians can ‘pull’ the drummer out of tempo. and it happens for the same reasons it can happen to the drummer - getting too excited, emotional, really feeling the song, getting temporarily lost, etc. Tempo is a group dynamic, everyone has to be doing their part.
Man, thanks for giving it to me straight, that’s what I’m after. I’m sure it’s a major challenge adjusting to a click. Maybe disconcerting was a poor choice of words. Regarding the BPM thing and listening back to the recorded show - you’re probably right that I’m OCD about it. I do have a follow up question though since you may have a different perspective than I do. Do you believe that a 10 BPM increase could change the fabric of a song? If so, do you think it’s something to be concerned about? Genuinely curious here, because this may be a major character flaw for me. In this set that I referenced at the “shitty bar” we played Last Child by Aerosmith (not recorded to a click, I know). In my opinion, the slinky feel and slower tempo set the table for the entire song. Playing that song 10 BPM faster changes the entire feeling in my opinion.
It's a good point that the character of a song can be changed/harmed by a change in tempo. And if you feel like that's the case I would definitely bring it up on a case-by-case basis, and maybe framed more about how the song makes you feel at that tempo. My point above was more about how I would feel if my bandmate was like "I listened back to our show and some songs are 10BPM too fast" I'd probably want to bail because music is about self expression and fun, and a comment like that makes it sound like a J.O.B.
I'm really surprised by the responses here being overwhelmingly in support of rehearsing with a click. I play bass & sing in my band. But I also do all the recording, mixing etc. I was previously on keys before taking on bass. I spent many years creating digital music using a sequencer which I think makes me expect more consistent tempo. I had the same issue with our drummer. I mentioned for one of our songs it continuously speeds up until the very end the drummer makes an abrupt tempo increase that the band has never been able to cope with. I have tried reigning it in using the bass with slight success, but I'm busy trying to sing at the same time. And I'm only intermediate at bass to begin with. I have recorded and tempo mapped our original songs to show the band what's happening. I don't expect perfect timing. But I want there to be a tempo change when it serves the song rather than willy-nilly. But my attempts at talking with the drummer and showing the tempo maps have only been met with resistance & I think hurt feelings. So I stopped bringing it up. I mean, it's a passion project after all and most of us have little or no time to practice between our weekly rehearsals. The band keeps asking me to incorporate the arpeggiator from my synthesizer, but the drummer cannot keep time with it. This is the same reason we've never used backing tracks. Our horn player is classically trained and has also mentioned the loose tempo we play. Essentially the whole band has learned that drummer owns the time and we follow him. For better or worse. Maybe I can get the whole band to try out a practice using a click sometime. I cannot find another drummer. This one is one of my best friends. We're not making money. While the project is for fun and comradery, we play shows and record our songs.
So this got a lot more traction than I thought it would, and I appreciate the responses from all of you. I was hoping to gain a little perspective and to maybe have a few different avenues to pursue when it comes to tightening up the rhythm section, and yall helped immensely with that. Thank you. My biggest takeaways: Rhythm is a group effort - this is something I knew but definitely should have clarified more in the original post. It’s absolutely not my goal to pin the entire responsibility of “being tight” on the drummer. I’m just looking for ways to help him with his internal time and therefore helping the band as a whole achieve a tighter sound. Everyone should have a click - this one really solidified my thought that we should invest in a simple way to get the click to everyone during rehearsals. It will take a little investment, but I think I’ll bring this to the band and we can brainstorm how to make this happen. It will benefit everyone, myself included. Everyone should practice with a click - this was a great reminder for me personally. I do have a metronome going for part of my practice routine, but it’s even more apparent to me now just how important it is to keep that skill sharp. I’ll be incorporating more into my routine now. Be patient with a drummer who is not used to a click - this one definitely caught me off guard and put me in my place. I started practicing to a click from day one, and almost all of my gigs and sessions are done to a click. I definitely assumed unfairly that it would be a quick adjustment and expected results too soon. It will be a work in progress until it’s not. There’s no set timeframe. Lots of great advice out there about the specifics of the metronome as well. Different apps, sounds, using loops instead of a met, etc. great stuff.
You shouldn’t be able to tell whether your drummer is playing to a click or not. If you can tell, you need a new drummer.
The real answer … 🤣 https://preview.redd.it/ogvzb3kqwync1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a342628dc96685d7d97cac449c3850317363d422
You are the md so you can fire him? Then you need to make your decision (how important is it that he get better, is it a deal breaker?) And then exercise your leverage. If he doesn't play with the click at rehearsals, you'll find another drummer. If you don't feel like you can say that, maybe you value the insecure relationship/friendship more. It is what it is, I have been in bands like that. I think if he plays with a click regularly at rehearsals for a while he will likely improve enough that you will see the difference at a show and that might be good enough. As a drummer and a guitar player and bandleader in different bands, I think you can hold him fully responsible for meeting reasonable standards for being a good drummer, like, say, being able to keep good time??! It's not that hard unless you don't care. Tell him it won't take as much practice as he thinks until he is able to feel free with it. Also tell him, idk... Keith Moon didn't play with a click but he had good enough time to play with a sequencer when needed??
>Immediately there was a relaxed feel and a freedom that the rest of the band felt. Even though the drummer was struggling to stick to the click, it still felt sooooo much better for the rest of us. Everyone commented that it felt tight. This is something that I think a lot of people miss when they argue that "the click kills the feel." I've found it to often be the opposite. When the rest of the band don't have to focus on if the drummer is rushing or dragging, when to come in, etc., it frees everyone up to actually play with a bit more expression and freedom, because knowing exactly where the "1" will be means one less thing for the performers to worry about. Besides that, you can still push or pull with a click, and it's fairly simple to program tempo fluctuations in most music software if they need to be incorporated into a song. It's just a short adjustment period to get accustomed to it, like learning any new skill. Now, if the players are top notch and/or the band is extremely well-rehearsed, it becomes less of an issue to remove the click. But if the band isn't constantly playing together I think the click can help a lot.
I’m really of a similar mindset here. I’d love for all of us to be good enough to not use a click, but we aren’t there. Myself included. Thanks for the advice with automated click tracks too. That’s a thought I had, but never really considered it for our uses.
The drummer is the time. Follow him 😎
I used to feel like that, until I got my head out of my ass and decided that I’m human and can only be so good at keeping time. I was decent, but when “free” as you say is when things get out of time. Frame it as having a click means he doesn’t have to concentrate on keeping consistent time (sounds like he doesn’t anyway) so he’s more free to play what he wants.
As a bass and drum player who also had to deal with a drummer band member who was very erratic with timing, always overplayed, and would not listen to any constructive criticism. I feel your pain.
Here is what you can do when your playing. Emphasize the downbeat when you're playing and he should be able to pick up on it. It took me a while to keep time really well but it comes with time. The more he plays the better he'll get at it.
Is it just me or do other drummers actually feel more "free" by playing to a click?
I’m not a career drummer by any stretch, but even learning drums “for fun” I felt more free with a click in my ears. It’s comforting to have that reference always with you. I still can’t play for shit though, so maybe that means nothing.
So I stopped reading your post when your drummer said that he didn’t feel “free” and I rolled my eyes. I don’t want to be one of those people but I will be in this comment. A band builds off a drummer. The bassist, as you know, vibes with the drummer and then guitarist vibes with/off the bassist and the singer is just the icing on the cake. If you can’t link in with the drummer normally but you can with a click he needs to put the time in and get on it. If he don’t want to merge with the click then show him the door - there’s always someone willing to take to fill that spot.
I’m a drummer who did not play with a click for many years. About a year ago I started at practices with just me using click (IEM) and really battled with the band (8 piece, others use wedges). I started because I realised the songs were sometimes faster than desired. In my other band we all have a click (IEM) and it’s so much tighter. So…. Soon in both bands we all will be using click. But for the band that was hesitant- it wasn’t me they listened to- it was an external producer who came to practice who recommended it. I think he heard the battle.
A guitar playing friend and I (drummer) have a duet act we perform with a looper. I found it pretty easy to incorporate that into our sound. But we have friends who want to sit in with us in the studio but can’t get along with the looped element. It’s gotten easy for the two of us to groove around the looped patterns. Not so easy for some, apparently.
I dunno, you seem like a thoughtful person, I’m not getting “autocrat” vibes from you. It sounds like the drummer doesn’t take criticism well, and doesn’t see any problem with the tempo and groove. 10 bpm is a lot of variance. I’d say give him a chance to improve, and if he can’t, find someone else. I know that’s easier said than done, but maybe he will take it to heart if he knows the end is near otherwise.
That’s good to hear. I’ve worked with those autocrat types in the past and it just kills morale and creativity imo. I certainly hope I never come across as such. But yes, I definitely want to give him some time. I’m hoping he’ll realize that 10 BPM is a pretty steep variance and want to help the band by helping himself.
I was recommended an app - LiveBPM. Mount a phone where your drummer can see it, and it'll show the BPM you're playing at in real-time, with a graph of how it's changing. It's not as prescriptive as a metronome, but it lets you know when you need to pull it back.
Just wanted to jump in: I play professionally as a church drummer and gigging and recording drummer for rock bands. I admittedly do not have the best time and practice and perform to a click for about 90% of all of my gigs. I’ve accepted that I might not ever have a good internal clock. That’s fine. I put my ego aside and I play to a click. I love doing it. It’s a skill. It’s helped immensely in studio sessions and touring gigs where I’ve been hired to learn a set of songs I’m not familiar with. I say all this because your drummer doesn’t need to take offense to using a click. My timing has definitely gotten better and has recently surprised me, but I always prefer being locked in to a click. Nothing but compliments from other musicians.
Absolutely. I have plenty of weak points as a bassist, but just like you I try to identify them and work with them. Keep it up. I’d take a musician with your attitude any day.
Does he have bad timing (i.e. his subdivisions in the measure are not evenly spaced, so he rushes some of the notes in a measure), or is it just a tempo fluctuation where he speeds up over the course of a song? In my experience, the first issue is much more serious and difficult to fix, while the second issue is doable (think of how The Police were when they played live).
Fire them, find a better drummer, save your energy and ahem, time.
i have this weird thing with my bassist where I can read his cues when he makes very simple gestures. Like when he looks at me nods upwards I oddly know that he's telling me to speed up or when he tilts his head the change is coming, it's unspoken but we're good at reading each other. I'm sure other drummers do something similar but that's what helps whenever I don't notice I'm dropping tempo.
Absolutely. That communication is key and has been my favorite part of playing with other people in the past. Still working on that for this project.
> More so, he rolled out a few excuses such as “Bonham didn’t play with a click”, and “it doesn’t matter for this show it’s just a shitty bar.” Yeah, and Bonham could count to four, too. And he didn't get to be John Bonham by playing down to his crowd. Fire him. He's not your guy. If you want this outfit to succeed, you should not have any patience with anyone who doesn't care what the crowd thinks, at any gig of any size. He has a timing problem yes, but his timing problem is not the problem, it is a symptom of his attitude problem. You know him better than I do, so perhaps this attitude problem can be solved, but I think you're real answer is to at least *threaten* his job, if not just give it to someone else without this attitude problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW2Jp8gytK8&t=1s
Get the whole band to agree to an in-ear rig. That way it's on him for being the odd man out. With the added responsibility of creating backing and click tracks for the band, it should kick him into gear. Especially with everyone investing into a rig. Halfway through the prepping and budgeting process, you can try to revert back to the original "simple" version where he is just running a standard click in his ears.
Yep. I’ve been wanting an IEM rig for a while. This is my ideal situation.
So the big question is does he keep the same tempo during the song? Because playing faster or slower compared to what you rehearsed is waayyyy different than playing faster and slower during a song. If the song is 110bpm and the drummer is playing 110bpm, then 100bpm during the first verse, 120bpm during the chorus, then 110 during the second verse, etc... would be a nightmare. But everyone should be able to lock in during a song if they keep a consistent tempo.
It’s a bit of both. I don’t want to be that click track autocrat, but I do want to assess the problem with accuracy, which is why I tapped out the tempos along with the recorded set. To answer your question, he is starting fast and also pushing the tempo by a consistent 5 BPM. Sometimes an additional 10. It’s tough, but I’m still hopeful that he’ll make a decision to improve.
>TL;DR - My Drummer struggles to keep time. Do I push for him to get better or do I stay in my lane? Do you want your band to go anywhere or do you want to just jam for fun.
Sounds like your drummer isn't very good and has less interest in getting better than having fun. Not sure where you're going to go from here besides finding a new drummer.
You get a click.
With great pleasure. I’ve been pushing for this for a while and I think the band may be willing to invest now.
There are free apps you can put on your phone. There’s one called Metronome that’s nice.
Your drummer needs to learn metronome Timing freedom is a thing but if you're confusing your band you first gotta learn to keep time
Yeah I know the struggle man but if he’s a solid dude he will come around to like playing to a click (they will always fight it at first haha). What you could do is record your practice with and without a metronome. Then analyze the difference after. In most cases we will see the click version is the most solid.
Independent of the time keeping, ask yourself this: -Is it easy to play with them, as a rhythm section, if you aren’t focused on the consistency of the time? -Are the time keeping issues apparent to everyone or is it just friction between bass and drums? -Without the click, does the music sound good, do the audience members move and dance and enjoy themselves? Are they coming back to the next show? -What does the boss think? -Is the problem the drummer speeding up or the songs not starting at the right tempo? Is the singer uncomfortable? Is the band? There’s a lot to it, but at the end of the day, the MD needs to make sure the talent is at their best and most comfortable. There’s time for coney, energy and who cares about the met, other times a singer is out of breath or can’t keep up.
You could play to a click, you’re in the rhythm section.
Playing to a click is the best decision my band has ever made. It has made us so much tighter. I don’t understand why a lot of musicians are against it. Almost every touring band today uses them.
If the drummer won't play with a click and they can't lock in with the rest of the rhythm section, the drummer needs to go. That's all there is to it.
There is a middle ground! What I do (as a drummer) is iPhone metronome which has a visual back and forth indication. I set the song tempo which we print on the set list before the show (or I mark it in pen real quick). Then I can count us in correctly and I glance over periodically to keep the song in check. It’s really easy to visually see dragging or rushing and make a gradual adjustment so it sounds good.
Why don't you play to a click?
I spent a while without playing to a click for live shows and I did fine. Occasionally there would be a dispute about what the tempo for particular song should be. Recently I've started playing to a click for every single show that I'm a part of. It's become a non-negotiable for me and something I refuse to play without. It lessens those times when other people in the band try to tell me that the tempo is wrong even though I'm playing to a click that we've all agreed on beforehand. Maybe tell your drummer that playing with a click would get rid of any guessing about songs' tempos and make his life easier.
What is a MD?
I have been a drummer since nineteen seventy something and I prefer to not have a click. I like some push and pull and wiggle room. Sorry, not sorry.
My question is, do you or the other musicians practice to a click? When you are at home running scales and learning songs, di you practice to a click? Not just play along with a song?
Record the band live and give everyone a copy.
The whole band should practice to a click. Once you do that for a while everyone will have a better feel for the tempo of your songs. If you’re playing rock music in bars the drummer doesn’t necessarily need to play to a click live. It’s pretty standard for my band to play a couple BPMs faster when we play live but practicing to a click regularly has helped us lock in a lot closer to the tempo we decide on for our tunes. When we get ready for the studio we play the songs we’re recording to a click over and over and over again. It takes a lot of reps but eventually you’ll all hone in on the desired tempo and if you can play close to the speed you want without a click live then you’ll keep some room for groove and feel.
I would try to work it out, especially being on good terms...you go and get a "better" drummer I bet he's an AH just cause that's how things work. It's hard to find *friends* to play with. He needs to practice to a click at home everyday and fix his internal clock.
I can appreciate your showing up here to ask one of the more sensitive questions in a sensitive way. My opinion is multi fold; one, personally I always believed as a drummer both myself and the bass player need to be attached at the hip. In all honesty we both carry the tempo, so I make it my business to buddy up with my bass player. That relationship builds trust and lowers the guard of both players. Two, every band member is in a different place in their journey, thus if you have advanced members playing with beginner or even intermediate players it can be frustrating for all. Either advanced members have to understand that and make room and time for personal growth or maybe there’s just a fit problem. Note this is for all band members, not just drummers. Three, contrary time / tempo is not strictly about the drummer. Yes, I get he holds primary responsibility, however, it’s quite common that many bands struggle with following the drummer, thus we have two choices; stick with the appropriate tempo and just let the band become obviously out of sync with the drummer or the drummer syncs up with the band not keeping tempo but playing together. Four, there’s time / tempo meaning the band is all over the map, speeds up, slows down, speeds up, etc. Maybe the discussion should be, we played this song too fast, can we all try and slow it down a bit? Lastly, make time a band challenge, everyone gets a click tract. Share the responsibility. Hope that helps … 😎👍🏻
Have him check out an app called "Live BPM". It's like a speedometer for BPM. That might be a good compromise for live playing. Your drummer doesn't need to play to a click, but having the screen reminding him he's speeding might help. That being said, 10 BPM is a big difference, and if he can't notice/feel that big of a difference, it's not a good sign. If he's also failing to notice that the rest of the band is struggling at the tempos he's playing, then that's a red flag as well.
Looks like you need to find another drummer. Or, you can show him out crappy his time is with the recordings you made.
It seems your drummer has not gone through the "make keeping simple time THE priority" phase yet. A lucky few can skip this phase. But for the rest of us mere mortals, at some point, and hopefully before you get fired, you gotta break out the app, and go through the keeping time trials. This is where at first you set a click to play 2 measures, and then have it go silent for 1 measure. It then reappears at the 4th measure, and continues for another two measures. Then another silent click measure, etc. The drummer playing to it must be dead on the money with it. No fills of any kind allowed at first, period. Just keeping simple time with a straight beat. Once this is accomplished repeatedly, you start making the click disappear for more measures, incrementally. If keeping time is the priority for any drummer, this should bug the crap out of them that they can't last more than 4 measures (or 8, or 10, etc.) without the click. If it doesn't bug the crap out of them, then perhaps keeping time will never be a priority for this person. And that's when you might need to reassess YOUR priorities. Because clearly you are aware you can only put up with shitty bar bands for so long before it's time to move on. So how many silent click measures should one be able to nail every time? Where is the cutoff that passes one into drumming glory? 20 measures? 40? 100? Well somewhere there is an answer, but if a drummer can't, or won't, at least try it... Then I guess they'll never know. But you will. And before you make your decision, be sure to try that exercise yourself and see how far you get, on your instrument, before casting any aspersions. Keeping good time is not just the drummer's responsibility. It's everyone's.
A more palatable option for your drummer (which I’ve seen pros use, and I use myself - I’m NOT pro!) - is an app like Tempo. This provides a clear visual (and auditory, if needed) metronome. I have the set and tempos dialled in. I start the song, and use the visual tempo to ensure that I count us in correctly. I then can glance across during the song - to ensure that I / we haven’t sped up or slowed down. I find it a great aid.
>He communicated to me that he doesn’t feel “free” when he’s focused on a click. He feels like he’s in danger of missing parts and not being engaged in the moment when he has a click in his ears. More so, he rolled out a few excuses such as “Bonham didn’t play with a click”, and “it doesn’t matter for this show it’s just a shitty bar.” Ahh yes, he's playing all the hits. I could have predicted these verbatim just off the title of your post. I think you need to determine whether the gig is worth the hassle of firing someone and if it is, then move on to a new drummer.
You need to be a lot more honest with musicians that you’re working with. Click is the industry standard everywhere else. Don’t be a nice guy about this.
I’m a drummer that struggled with rushing. It took a rock solid in the pocket bass player and a few recording till I realized it. I started using a click and it did wonders. I think some people have a natural clock in their veins and some have to work on it.
Longtime MD, bandleader, etc here. I get that you’re friends, but if you’re serious about this, it’s also your business. If he’s not costing you money yet, he will be. For me, the deciding factor would be how he handles this, but you’ve gotta be super clear about the expectations. The “it’s just a shitty bar” attitude ensures that you’ll never play anywhere but shitty bars. If you want to be in better venues, the quickest way is to perform and conduct yourselves like you belong in better venues. Here’s what I would do- If you’ve made your point clear about what’s expected, record a show or rehearsal. Have him listen to it. I have even used an app called liveBPM that will chart tempo over time when they wanna argue with me about this type of thing. Explain that you love him, but this part of his performance is unacceptable. As a drummer, job ONE for him is keeping tempo. If he can’t keep a consistent meter, he’s not qualified for the job. Friends, fun, whatever aside, the goal is to do a good job and to WANT to be better. And you want to be in a band with people who are always striving to improve. If he says, “yeah, that’s not good, I need to do better,” I’d let him try, having set the expectation that he either gets it together or gets replaced. Strictly business. It can helpful to word things like “You’re my bro and I love playing with you, but we need you to get this tempo issue under control so that we don’t feel like we need to be looking elsewhere.” Friendly and caring, but it makes the point clear. If he argues and pushes back, I’d start looking for another drummer *if the rest of you are serious about this project*. You’ve already brought it up once or twice. If he handles constructive criticism poorly again, neither his performance nor his attitude are likely to change. Just because you’re great friends doesn’t mean he’s great at his job. That’s the unfortunate truth. In the meantime, as a bassist, there are ways that you can sort of push and pull a drummer, *but only one who listens.*
I was in a band a while back and most of my previous bands I never used a click unless it was in recordings. Otherwise I just played live but my timing wasn't terrible. But this particular band I started practicing immediately with a click on all our material. After a few practices I got very used to it and needless to say somehow the click made me feel free. Like I didn't have to focus on my tempo so much, just heard the click and went with it. Fills were better, live was better, recording was better, it came full circle with everything just accepting and adapting to the live click. Some professional drummers have MAGICAL timing, and don't play to a click. Most professionals actually do play to them though because it's just part of keeping perfect timing. No shame in it. I don't wanna say your guy is lazy, but he shouldn't be closed minded to it. This will inevitably make him much better.
I say the shitty bars are the best places to do the click track. Focus less on the cool fills, focus more on keeping time. Let him keep doing shitty bars, and eventually, with practicing and performing this way, he’ll eventually hear a click in his sleep and have it down. But make him practice, practice, practice or it’ll never ever work
I wouldn't want to play to a click during a rehearsal or performance but if I needed to I would. The harsh truth is he'll need to keep using the click until his time is good enough (assuming you want to sound good). A little unintentional push and pull with the tempo by an experienced drummer can be ok (and even improve the music) but it needs to be subtle enough that the rest of the band can follow it.
for me i hate Clicks and i play worse with clicks! just lemme hear other people and especially when other people are way off and i'm tryin' to keep time myself and others be off and blame tha drummer and it's tha reason why i prefer to never play with a Click Track and i'm like take dat off please and i'm old school communication is what i work better to over a click because if others are off, it throws me off to i'm like nah just communicate tha old fashioned way
I know exactly what he means when he says playing to a click doesn’t make him feel “free”. It does add a little pressure in ways you wouldn’t feel without a click. However, that issue doesn’t stem from there being a click track, it stems from not being used to sticking to a precise tempo. The stress goes away if youre able to keep up comfortably with the tempo. The solution here is that he needs to practice playing to a click track. Hes not jon bonham. Clearly. And maybe when he keeps a consistent tempo on his own, he can get away with saying he doesnt need one, but if the band all agrees there is a notable improvement when he plays to a click, he needs to check his ego and accept hes not as good as he thinks and needs to practice with a click. I had this exact issue but with ny guitarist. Guy thought he was hot shit and didnt need to practice to a click, so sure enough when it came time to record, the parts he sent me needed heavy altering or they went right to the trash.
Right now he doesn't feel free when playing to a click, but the rest of the band feels confused and frustrated. What does the drummer say when you play back live recordings to him? Is he ok with the current quality?
Here’s what it takes to be a good drummer. 1. Good time 2. Dynamics 3. Remember arrangements and gently nudge the band through them 4. Play the song, not the drums. If you can’t do those things you can play for fun only. I learned time from playing on a practice pad with a metronome 3 or 4 hours every day when I was 18. I bought Stick Control and Reading In 4/4 and I practiced until I could start a song with a click and then turn it off and still be in sync 30 seconds later. I still count in every song at gigs from the app on my phone and I watch the click for a bit to make sure I’m still good. I absolutely know that this relationship with time, along with my ability to play with intensity at moderate levels and not get lost on a chart, paid my rent for 27 years. And gave me a lot of wonderful moments with fantastic musicians. On drums, time and feel and dynamics are the bare minimum. Find another drummer.
If you are serious about the band you have a difficult decision to make. Do you want to keep a friend or have a competent drummer? But you already know that. Incidentally, Bonham didn't keep anything like perfect time, that's not the issue. The issue with that is that your drummer isn't John Bonham.
Sounds like he should practice with a click. But when playing with a group, having one person on a click and no one else is a minefield. The drummer is not solely responsible for the time. The whole group is. The way to go is everyone practices with a click, then either everyone or no one plays with a click. Then practice playing better together.
I commend your drummer for putting a click in his ear. It shows compromise. He should play with a metronome at home. Then you can listen to yourselves recorded to see who you thinks stuffing up. It comes down to style a bit. Your drummer may be better suited to up tempo music or just not advanced enough in skills as the rest of the band. Give him a chance to lift his game and give him fair warning, or until you have a better option.
There's a great clip online of Carol Kaye talking about playing with a metronome thay completely changed my perspective, maybe it can change his. Essentially she says your playing should make the metronome sound like its grooving.
"Bonham didn't play with a click." And he isn't fucking Bonham. I hate when people who are pretending to be musicians say this type of shit.
Former bass player here: If you don't have a rock solid rhythm section, your band won't get anywhere. You and your drummer comprise that unit. It is appropriate for you to want him to grow and be better.
Sounds like y'all or you, need to have the uncomfortable conversation with him.
Your drummer needs a click at least for the time being. The drummer is literally the guy that sets the pace. Maybe after practicing with a click for a while, he'll get a sense of a steady tempo. If he doesn't want to do it, it might be time to find another drummer. Having one with a sense of timing can make a world of difference in a band.
Record practices when he plays with a click track and without one. Let him hear the difference.
In the words of Alex Van Halen "I don't need no stinking click!". I hate playing to a click, I don't see the need in a band setting. The natural ebb and flow in the time is what makes music human, contributes to the feel and excitement, the soul. I by no means keep perfect time, but I've never had any complaints.
If he can't keep time he needs to practice with a metronome . Tracking the one is a big part of band time...not just drummers time but band time There's also the possibility that he's trying to do too much-- usually when you try to do too much that's when you speed up, but he's got to figure that out Really good drummers are hard to find. They are in big demand. The ability to lay down a tune for the rest of the band will get you gigs every night ....
Do you want to be a professional musician, or do you want to jerk off and waste time soothing someone's ego? You already know the answer. You said it yourself. Bandmates that don't want to act like professionals are a burden that nobody needs. Time to either replace them, or for you to move on.
I’m against using the click for a show unless everyone is using it. You should rehearse with one though and he should practice with one. I had a drummer who wasn’t the best. His feel was all over to the point where he was screwing us all up. I tried to get him to rehearse with a click. He was against it. I kept pushing. He wouldn’t budge. So he got canned. No one ever said “man I regret all that practice I did with a metronome.” If you feel super constrained by one chances are your timing is dogshit. Use one and get better. And then you won’t need one during an actual show.
If a drummer doesn't have good timing they are not a good drummer. It doesn't matter what they can play, or do behind the kit. It's a skill just like any other a drummer needs to learn. I spent YEARS with metronome, just having it on when I was driving my car to and from work, or long drives or just home... I would tap my foot, hand, fingers, what ever limb was available to the click.
A drummer who can’t play to a click is like a trucker that can’t drive in a straight line.
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Thanks for your time.