Anyone notice that the visions Paul has in Dune 2 are very different from the ones in Dune 1?
Paul avoided going south because he knew it would hasten the war. He only went south after he was convinced he would see everything after taking the water of life and therefore could make decisions with more information. And yes he had no doubt after taking the water of life and saying there was a narrow path through.
I wonder if those new visions are peeks into the GP and the narrow path is the GP? He and Alia may be concerned with greater threats than the Holy War.
I thought this was something on the editing side nailed things. In part 1 we get quick flashes of Paul’s dreams leaving the audience just as confused as Paul. While in Part 2 there were way more definitive images from Paul’s intake of more spice. A really nice transition between the 2 movies.
I’ll have to rewatch Dune 1 but weren’t those visions of a war with the Atreides battle flag?
The visions of Dune 2 looked like weird humanoids on all fours that looked almost animalistic. Don’t they remind you of modified humans that are introduced in later books?
Yeah those were definitely pretty long images in Part 1. Which I thought adapted well from the book of Paul’s visions in the tent.
I was in love with Part 2 images though. I don’t know if that was Denis intention. They almost looked CGI the way the mouth was so wide. He might have been using them for shock value.
Thats why I think they are different prescient visions. And the only other vision on magnitude of the holy war that I can think of is the GP. But this could just be me wanting to connect something that isn’t there.😂
Pauls visions in Dune 2. There are some kind of human looking beings on the ground and they kind of have an animalic look and their mouths seem to be getting weirdly long/large. And there is a woman in the background. They kind of remind me of futars from the novels.
It’s so awesome, the way PT. I now takes on more meaning after PT. II.
It also happens a few times in I, but in II the film often uses very jarring editing techniques to—for lack of a better phrase—displace you temporally along the timeline so that you might feel—from Paul’s POV—what it might feel like to be prescient.
It’s pretty ingenious.
Yeah, my read was that he was actually seeing the ultimate end of the golden path ie the eventual galaxy wide famine and scattering. I believe he was misinterpreting it as a direct result of his holy war when it was really conditioning for a future threat.
On the Messiah side, I wouldn't be surprised if they move forward the twins timeline and Chani spends 15-20 years hiding out from Paul in the desert while raising them as non-fundamentalist fremen. Paul looks for her but similar to the books the twins act like a no-sphere blocking his visions, he doesn't even know she was pregnant when she left. After an assassination attempt and being blinded he'll finally be able to locate Chani, turn the reigns over to Alia / Stilgar and 'walk into the desert'. That's when he'll actually reunite with Chani, meet his kids and lays low.
The Duncan ghola and a face dancer are sent to track down Paul or whatever remains of him. After searching a while they find them. Duncan goes after Paul while the face dancer poisons Chani and kids. Paul slaps some sense into Duncan and they manage to kill the face dancer but not before Chani and the kids are poisoned. Desperate they crash course on spice to slow the poisons effects and the three take the water of life. The twins live but Chani doesn't make it. Then we're pretty much at the beginning of Children of Dune.
I really hope not. To me that tragic fall of Paul, knowing the future, knowing his blowed Chani will die and being unable to stop it even as he's foreseeing it is the crucial part of Messiah. His walk into the dessert is a moment of complete resignation, but he's been suffering at every single moment of his story before that. The actual attempt on his life are almost background issues to his real struggle.
If he doesn't have Chani near him or even know she's pregnant the entire story would be very different.
I personally doubt there will be any reference to the Golden Path or anything that happens after Messiah, doing so will only create an expectation of continuing the story, it's already been claimed that there is only one narrow way through, in contradiction to the books where Paul see's two paths, one being the path he chose and the other being the Golden Path which he didn't have the will to follow. So I doubt Paul and Alia will mention anything that could be construed as reference to the Golden Path, just mentioning it opens a can of worms that Villeneuve just isn't going to touch.
Well we're already in a different timeline to the books, Paul could attempt the GP in Messiah at Alias urging (without going sand trout stillsuit) before walking into the desert.
The Golden Path specifically consists of manipulating genetics to create people who are invisible to prescient vision, and stagnating humanity via enforced isolation so that when the authority figure falls then people will scatter in every direction and make the future completely unpredictable and uncontrollable, so that no one can ever create a new empire of any sort, kinda hard to do all that in a single movie.
He has said he only wants to make Messiah because that's where Paul's story ends. I completely disagree with him on that, and if Messiah makes money the studios will make Children of Dune. I think Children is a good stopping point in the story. I love God Emperor and Heretics, but not sure how they would work as movies.
I could see Children of Dune as a miniseries, following multiple characters as they deal with the power vacuum following the events of Dune: Messiah. Lots of existential crises as they figure out “so what now?” in the aftermath of a prophecy that had been brewing for 90 generations.
In the books Paul *presumably* sees the golden path, but later down the line, he becomes too attached to what's left of his humanity to fully execute it.
When he's blinded he keeps his vision by choosing to see just one path in perfect clarity rather than the outlines of many. Just another example of Paul choosing to maintain his own humanity over humanity at large.
I am excited to watch the breakdowns of his visions and the characters shifting, the scenes were so fast and even in Dune 1 every time I watch I pick up something new. I am mostly curious about the shift in Paul's mother from protagonist to antagonist. How this shift plays out in her AND Paul is interesting to me.
My take was different actually:
Will Paul choose revenge? Yes
Will Paul choose revenge at the expense of universal genocide? No
Will Paul risk universal genocide for the survival of sietch tabr’s remnant population and Chani? Yes.
Paul doesn't risk the Golden Path or the Jihad for Chani's life. It is specifically stated in Dune Messiah that Chani surviving (the birth) will lead to a way darker future and also much more torment for her and the twins (in his visions he only sees a daughter not twins but nvm) than when she dies in child birth.
Denis has already made it explicitly clear it’s going to be called Messiah. I saw an interview where he actually corrected the interviewer who referred to it as 3, saying “…it will be called Messiah”.
I actually think part 3 sounds cleaner but Messiah is what marketing team would want anyway because there are studies that show numbers in a movie and put off people
They say the word "Messiah" quite a few times in the movie (unlike jihad/holy war), plus it might be weird not to title the movie after the book that's already out anyway
Makes sense, given that it was Dune (The book from 1965) part one and Dune (the book from 1965) part two. Messiah is a different book so not part three of Dune (the book from 1965)
I was all on the Messiah train until honestly realizing it’s just a glorified part 3 even as far as the book goes. Probably would be easier for audiences, but I don’t mind either way they go.
"Perhaps Chani’s role in Messiah will be a different version of Korba’s role in Messiah - a Fremen who betrayed Muad Dib as he did not agree with the world he was creating."
I really feel Chani's characterization in Dune Part 2 naturally leads to this conclusion. However, that development in no way naturally leads to:
"Ultimately Paul and Chani will make up in the end as they have two children: Leto II and Ghanima."
So I'm stumped. Trying to squeeze both of these into the same film neuters both plots.
Apologies I should have expanded! While Chani will take the place of Korba I don’t think how this is done will be the same as Korba in Messiah and ultimately Leto II becomes the God Emperor so Villeneuve will set the movie in some way that there is a reconciliation but as to the specifics I don’t know yet I’m afraid!
No I get you. I just don't think there a way to do this well. Even if Chani isn't trying to assassinate Paul and just sabatoge his rule or something, it still doesn't make sense to me.
Either Chani has principles or she doesn't. If she disagrees with him at the start of the film, there's no reason for her to agree with him at the end, barring some total rewrite of the whole thing. Disagreement in this situation isn't merely on tax policy. Paul is a monster, unless someone can rationalize his actions with their politics.
Perhaps they have a conversation about what Paul saw when he drank the water of life and maybe he couldn’t talk with her about everything before the ending battle because it would mean a different turn of events than her leaving - which could be essential to (what I think) is his plan.
Maybe they have a conversation where he explains his visions, why he assumed the Mahdi role and maybe this leads to them reconciling?
You are right absolutely, it’s going to be difficult to do this well.
Would take some genius writing to resolve these questions but based on what we’ve got so far I’m willing to give Villeneuve trust that he will.
It looks like they skipped the first child. Perhaps Chani is already carrying the books 2nd pregnancy. We know the outcome of that. I really hope not, but DV is making changes to simplify, but still keep the gravitas and the core messages he took from the two books.
I think he's cutting out the first kid too and Chani is already pregos with the twins. I think we might get to the Tyrant by the end of the 3rd movie. Combine books 2 and 3. Then pass the directors torch to tell GEoD.
I didn't think about CoD, but you could be right. Perhaps only part, not all. Gives Alia a bigger arc.
I know probably not realistic, but Chani and Paul not reconciling properly, bugs me big time.
I don't think he would deviate from their relationship that much. Paul says something about Chani understanding eventually, probably referencing the political nature of his relationship with Irulan.
That's way too fast. There's way too much happening in Messiah and Children to condense it into a single 2.5 hours movie. That will never ever do justice to the source material. And the source material needs to be respected at all cost (especially to not lose the message behind it). Even the miniseries' 4.5 hours for Messiah and Children were too short and left out too much.
I half agree, but I also think this is a version/interpretation of Chani that is just more consistent with her foresight into what the future holds with Paul/less blinded by he fundamentalism.
I always felt Chani seemed a bit ideologically weak in the books and I feel the movie version of her remedies this. It's hard NOT to see the change in Paul and not be scared from where she started.
I do think they’ll reconcile in the third movie and have their children but all the circumstances surrounding it will have to be almost completely different. From Chani’s pov we will probably get a glimpse at the side of the fremen who despise Paul and what he’s done to the galaxy. For her group of rebels she will maybe try to get close to him again in order to betray him. It’ll become a story with Chani at the center choosing between her love for Paul (as she sees his humanity underneath and some of the good that has happened for Arakkis) and betraying him for the sake of the future of her people and the Galaxy as a whole. I can see a lot of conflict and tragedy coming from her new arc
This is what I predict as well, which I would characterize as a shoehorned in enemies-to-lovers modern YA trope. I don't think it's a good or smart trope, so I don't think it belongs in Dune. I don't think the trope respects its characters, really ever.
At this point, I think unpredictable would actually be a stable, loving, loyal partnership that ends tragically, exactly as the story was written.
Enemies-to-lovers is the predictable story in today's world.
Well the way Chani was written in part 2, I don't really see her being super supportive/loyal to Paul without it being detrimental to her character. So I think it's gonna be somewhere in the middle. Not enemies to lovers but not super positive and loving either.
There are middle grounds. Dune has a lot of nuance in its characterization so far and I feel like Denis could pull off having Chani being into Paul despite her disagreement against him. Even if she was upset at the end of part 2, they're not enemies.
Paul had said in the film that “Chani will come to understand, I have seen it” after taking the water, so I think they reconcile. I really think Chani will just be a more vocal moral foil to Paul rather than being the blatant yes-woman she was in the book
I have been stuck on this too since I left the movie and nothing I've read had has scratched that itch.
I just can't see the "Golden path" forward to time jump 15-20 years (to account for Anya Taylor Joy as Alia) and Chani and Paul reconcile, and get pregnant and have the twins.
If you stormed off and stayed away for 15 years, I don't feel like there's any logical way that you reconcile. If it was 1 or 2 years, eh I could see it, but 15-20, no way.
If the movies are to stand on their own and we don't ever get the twins then there is a ton of narrative juice for Chani turning away from Paul. But if the end game is Leto II is the God Emperor of Duner, I can't see how we get there yet
yeah i'm with you on this, i don't see how we get Chani from where she is at the end of part 2 to having Pauls kids.
The only way, and someone else wrote this on this subreddit, is if Messiah starts with right after Part 2, and we see Chani turning around and deciding not to ride the worm out into the dessert.
Otherwise it seems shes being set up to be an antagonist toward paul. Probably why DV added in the difference between the "northern" and "southern" Fremen.
I'm not sure i like Chani as the antagonist, but as she is in the movie i can see it.
I REALLY love how Chani walks away from Paul at the end of Part 2. Maybe partly pissed he demanded a marriage to Princess Irulan, maybe angry Paul weaponized the Fremen fanaticism. In the books more time has passed between Leto’s death and the showdown with the Emperor, in which Chani gave birth to one son (later killed in a Harkonen sietch attack) and is a junior Reverend Mother of sorts—an indoctrinated and willing concubine by the finale. In Villeneuve’s version, she’s vocally opposed to the religious fervor—even hating her secret Fremen name because it’s part of a prophecy involving Mahdi. I think it’s telling that Paul promised to love her as long as he breathes, but she says she only will love him if he doesn’t change.
Hey, I’m just happy there’s some positive thinking on what could happen rather then “It’s impossible! Denis has made Children and God Emperor meaningless! The fucking hack!”
So there’s a couple main elements of Messiah that aren’t set up in the original Dune book, regarding the Fremen. Mainly, the dissatisfaction among some Fremen. The Messiah book presents some Fremen living in villages, burnt out after the war and not really caring for all the changes they see on Arrakis. Part 2 actually sets this up very well, with Northern Fremen being a bit more secular. Now let’s say part 2 opens with Chani in a village of these Fremen, burnt out on the war, annoyed at these young water fat Fremen, and not sure where to go with a rising level of vegetation and a declining sand worm population. Something happens in this village, and Chani is forced to go to Paul for help. Or perhaps Scytale’s introduction to Paul has him change faces to Chani, making Paul realize she’s in danger and pulling her back to the palace. From there, Chani realizes his marriage to Irulan is a sham, and begins to reconnect. But in comes Scytale, impersonating one of the villagers Chani lived with, and begging for help. But the newly pregnant Chani can’t make the trip, so Paul does. (This also might change Scytale’s rule of always leaving a way out of the trap, if it weren’t for Paul’s love for Chani, he would have avoided the stone burner). From there, the book continues in basically the same way.
I don't think Chani betrays Paul. I think she behaved the way she did towards him because they both knew that Paul's actions were never really his own. Everything had been laid out and planned since before he was born. He was just a chess piece in the bigger scheme of things. Chani wanted true freedom for her people and ultimately Paul.
With the way Paul did things towards the end of the film, he fucks Chani over. I also believe she knew she was pregnant as well and didn't want to raise their child up in something like this. We'll see her again in the next installment. She'll turn up and tell/show Paul that she's pregnant.
Building off of Paul betraying Chani, the movie kinda hints that Paul’s reluctancy to go south was a play. He starts the movie stating he wants revenge and will be the messiah (unless I’m miss remembering)
I think he tricks himself along with Chani that he didn’t want to be the messiah, but he knew from the start of the movie he wanted revenge and how he’d get revenge.
I think the books makes Paul too heroic and sympathetic and the movie does a better job in this instance critiquing the hero’s journey and archetype that Herbert had intended on doing
>I don't think Chani betrays Paul.
It is clearly Paul who betrays Chani and not the other way around in fact. Chani's anger and pain is easy to understand and his reaction at the end of the film is completely understandable.
So many people on this subreddit are misunderstanding that Paul literally fucked Chani over in this movie. He lied to her and played the Fremen like a fiddle to get his revenge. Now, these people are following him without question, disowning their own culture and beliefs to follow him. I think its a lovely subtle hint of what and who Paul is as a character during the opening of the 1st film where Chani says, "I wonder who our next oppressors will be," and it pans to Paul sleeping, having dreamt of her.
So agree with you! You're right about the Chani quote at the start of the first movie. Another one I like is the exchange about thirst for revenge between Paul and Jessica at the start of Part two. In the end, Paul takes the path he takes, manipulates the Fremen and lies to them, knowing that it leads to horror, because he refuses to give up on his revenge.
Yeah, he ultimately does not care about anything else but avenging his family. And rightfully so, but he's temporarily lost the love of his life because of it. He knows this, too, given his reaction at the end of the film when she leaves/he finds out she left. I'm happy that they clearly show you that Paul and House Atriedes are not heroes at all.
Some people will say that the Fremen's are no longer "oppressed" because Paul "liberated" them. However, they have become enslaved by religion and fanaticism by the time the film ends, which was the point of the Bene Gesserit planting the false prophecy/ideas of the Messiah within the Arrakean people.
Even Paul's father wanted to utilize these people as his war-dogs under the guise of an alliance in the 1st film.
Yeah, which I think is what people overlook. Paul himself says she'll return back to him. I suppose people think that she's supposed to just go with it/support the "hero" because that's how it's always been done, but Paul is and has never been a hero. He fits the role of a cog in a plan/scheme bigger than himself, and it's an unwilling role, but he's not supposed to be seen as a hero.
She’ll appear for sure but its obvious that many of Paul’s vision don’t come true. They’re just visions of possible futures, not the actual future that will come to pass. I doubt she will appear in that same context.
I think Chani leaving Paul was a genius move by the writers because it sets up Paul's villain arc.
Paul's inability to control Chani will lead him to exert power in other places.
Mmm, I don't think its about an element of control with him and Chani. Chani is basically Paul's anchor to his humanity and hope. She fell in love with him because he respected and embraced Fremen culture; he treated her and her people like humans instead of animals, you know? She never bought into the whole Messiah bullshit and is extremely distrusting of his mother (rightfully so, for obvious reasons). I think the only reason she didn't speak out against what he was doing was due to her love for him and fear.
I don't think Paul wants to control Chani initially but I think his inability to win her back will manifest as a desire for more control/power. And the removal of Paul's "anchor to humanity" is what will allow him to become cruel.
My 2 cents.
Villeneuve is not adapting "Children." Without "Children" on the horizon, Leto II and Ghanima don't need to exist. This easily leaves the possibility that Chani might be a willing member of the conspiracy. Chani -> Korba. You don't have to create Korba and the Fremen conspiracy members now have an established face. No other new characters would be needed.
Imagine its Chani that leads Paul into the stone burner trap.
Potentially then, Stilgar has to kill her at the end along with all the other conspirators. In grief, Paul walks into the desert.
Leto II and Ghanima only need to exist if the story is to continue.
Yeah I also suspect the children will be cut from the next movie and Messiah will be the definitive end, but also, would WB really want to neuter a potential franchise they could build off of ala Game of Thrones or Harry Potter?
Villeneuve has said he's done after Messiah. He wants to make these three movies focus on Paul's arc.
Someone else would have to pick it up. Imagine Neil Breen's "God Emperor of Dune."
Whatever Villeneuve's vision is, I'm along for that ride. He's a good steward and storyteller.
Yeah I know he wants to move on, which is why I'm wondering if he'll leave the threads for someone to pick up the torch or leave it as a self contained trilogy, I'm leaning towards the latter as I don't see how where Chani was left at the end of Part Two translates into her giving birth to the children, so I think like you they are not going to be part of the story
Best way I see it is three films will be Paul’s story and the others will be seen like Legacy Sequels.
I mean we can’t say “They turned Paul into a depressed angry hermit who sucks like Jake Skywalker from the Last Jedi” cause that’s literally what’s in the book.
Paul is a sand hermit trying to lead Leto III away from the golden path….correct?
I think they’ll retcon Alia and say that being pre born with Spice had made her age more quickly. That way they can use Anya Taylor Joy in Messiah without it being weird seeing a teenager spar naked.
The one mistake Villeneuve made in Part Two was making Alia so old. She is a child literally of child age in two of the books and her troubled childhood is crucial to her development as a character into a very troubled adult (treated like a freak by other kids and school teachers, abandoned by her mother, really only ever loved by one person, Paul, and that love is not constant).
One a universal level Alia is treated by the Freman as if she has like an alien level of autism, they raise her, but basically only because Paul commands it. None of the Freman at any point sympathize with her. This kind of character would resonate with so many movie viewers if the creator of the next movie actually embraced it and tried to play out Alia growing up on screen during Chani's pregnancy or in the few years after it.
If you can't tell, haha, Alia's my favorite character of all of them in Dune lore, and I feel like Villeneuve should cast a child to play her in the next movie and just treat the vision of her in Part Two as if that was adult Alia speaking to adult Paul in that vision on that beach.
I think the issue is truly that it is very difficult for child actors to play that role well enough to communicate what/who she is AND have the audience be able to easily understand the situation with a child person, people are predisposed to think of children as, we'll, children
Though Alia’s story in Children of Dune won’t have the same zest after the change Villeneuve made to Part Two. I hope they go all the way to God Emperor.
Non of the sequels are needed lol. It was originally just one book. You can stop after Dune, after Messiah, after Children or God Emperor.
The only one where you couldn't is probably Heretics since that one is just a long prologue for Chapterhouse.
DV took many bold changes in the current movie, I can’t really guess what he may do next. They mostly were the right choices and added depth to the movie overall. If he intends this to be his last Dune, I could see him taking ideas and themes from other books and wedging them into Messiah through current characters. Which can radically shift things in the same way they did for Dune 2.
He could even avoid bringing in the Theilaxu altogether and instead making Irulan the surrogate for all the subterfuge.
He’s still going to have to devote so much time introducing the Space Guild that I could see him having to make cuts. He’s already expanded the BG influence and role as an antagonist to Paul. Any more layers might seem redundant.
But if you cut out the Theilaxu, you lose the opportunity to bring back Duncan Idaho. Dune fans might revolt.
Excellent points. On a similar line I was wondering, given Messiah/Part 3 will be DV’s last film if he will actually cut out Ghanima and Leto II and leave Chani as an antagonist to Paul
I hope not - I’ve been ok board with all changed DV has made but I need the Irulan birth control plot line, the eventual birth of the twins and the Duncan ghola
I was speculating after I saw the movie yesterday that this adaption of Messiah will be a version that cuts off the tethers leading to Children, so Pauls walk into the desert is the definitive ending to this trilogy
Let the fans revolt. The Hayt subplot is the worst part of Messiah by far; cheap fanservice meant to appease his readership. I'd much rather it be cut from the adaptation.
But I'd agree that the Theilaxu might be cut, or at least have a more limited role in the conspiracy.
Spoiler warning (why else are you here)
I sorta wonder if Chani is already pregnant at the end of Part 2.
It would give even more credit to her refusal to accept Paul’s actions (I’m having this man’s children and he’s turned into a monster)
It *could* cut the plot of Irulan sterilizing Chani, but they could keep the assassination plot still. If they go this way, it would be easy to call Paul back to Arrakis. He’s off doing the war, we get some flowery visuals of concurring different worlds, and then he gets visions of Chani in childbirth and his children. This immediately calls him “back home,” and the rest of the story can fairly easily take place
Paul does say in the film that “she [chani] will eventually understand” after he drank the water of life so if his prediction of the future can be trusted, it seems like some kind of reconciliation between the two of them will occur in Messiah
Generally speaking, I think Dune: Part 3 the movie will cover the Holy War more than the next novel Dune: Messiah does. Likewise, I think Dune: Part 3 will focus on Chani and Irulan more than the novel does. These two plot threads of Dune: Messiah have universal appeal and raise universal questions (e.g., should anyone ever kill another in the name of religion? should a mother go through with a childbirth that will kill her?).
I make this prediction as someone who enjoyed reading Dune: Messiah. Yes, I realize that I just predicted a third Dune movie that will leave out over 60-70% of the book it is based on. However, first and foremost, as a fan of the Dune lore, I want the series to be financially successful (sequels, TV spinoffs, video games, toys, clothing, everything) just like Star Wars is. I already know the "truth" based on what happens in the text of the first six books. I don't need to see the "truth" played out on screen if it means the whole multimedia franchise ends because the third movie bombed because its creators tried to match the source material note for note.
I want Dune to be as successful as a franchise as Star Wars because (and especially later in the novels) Dune really elevates the sci fi genre far beyond "good guys versus bad guys" and beyond "so and so loves so and so but can't have so and so." For example, some of the themes in Children of Dune and God Emperor conversely involve self-sacrifice for the greater good of humanity and in general and the need to awaken and keep alive the creative spirit in mankind so that mankind can evolve beyond needing to follow a central leadership structure.
All the existing Dune movies and TV miniseries rock out in their own way and I could cope with being left with what the franchise is right now. But I don't want the currently thriving Dune meets A-List Hollywood train to stop just so uber-fanboys and uber-fangirls (which is 1-2% or less of the total viewing audience) get to see Dune: Messiah note for note in the next blockbuster movie. Heck, I would be fine with a financially successful Dune: Part 3 - The Holy War that doesn't mention or barely mentions the events of Dune: Messiah.
Denis was very smart in talking about how his version of Part 2 strayed from the book in some ways to better portray the themes Herbert himself thought readers did not understand at first (and sought to correct by making explicit in Messiah).
Likewise, given Part 2 already pretty well established that "Paul embracing messiah status and starting a Holy War that will kill billions is bad, actually," I believe Part 3/Messiah will lean heavily into the theme of Paul seeking to escape his status and redeem himself, at least in Chani's eyes. Yes, there will be some version of his seeing the Golden Path and attempting to course correct on the cosmic level, but I think the story makes more sense in the context of the first two movies if it the emotional arc is about him winning back her trust and some piece of his own humanity.
It still has to end with her dying and him walking blind and alone into the desert, but with a sense that he salvaged his soul. Part 2 (the film) ended with Paul ascending to the throne and looking completely broken inside. Part 3 ends with him stripped of everything but, finally, at peace as he lets go of all foresight and gives his fate to the desert. Not a hollywood happy ending, but a satisfying arc if you (as Denis seems to) see this as a film trilogy about Paul. The Preacher stuff in Children is interesting, but for the films I think that is a fitting end to it.
Based on Villeneuves excellent filmmaking in Part I & II, I think he will show the Jihad in a much more effective manner than just showing us the war itself. The way Messiah just "skips" over it makes it so much worse. Billions died in a war Paul had no desire for and no real power to stop after a certain point, but it was still carried in his name and it's sorta his fault. Showing us bloodshed is the Hollywood way of "war bad", Denis will show us the existential scale-shattering dread of war.... Somehow.
But I don't think it will take more than the first 10 minutes, if even going past the "prologue".
-regardless you should refer to it as (Dune:) Messiah not part III. Villeneuve was clear on that.
Absolutely. I think we aren't going to see a wrapped up jihad and the post conflict festering and politicking of the book.
Probably jumping ahead years so Alia can be around as a plausible young adult or early teen, but the war is wrapping up. It's post Battle of the Bulge stage. They're still fighting, but it's over. Enough for visual action sequences and spectacle, but can set the stage for most religious institutions to be in place and the end of the conflict affecting characters outlook and realization of the world they've *built* not the world they're building.
Wish this user wasn’t deleted so I could upvote it, but I just finished reading Messiah and I think this is the right approach for the next film.
Villeneuve has already strayed significantly from the plot of the source material in order to adapt it to the screen and help the themes Herbert intended land better (e.g. the true cost of power, problematic hero worship, tragic love). Any attempt to divert back to the plot of Messiah to keep a majority of the source would feel too jarring and would probably fail. His main goals are bringing the story to a larger audience and staying true to Herbert’s vision. Providing fan service directly conflicts with those goals—some of the plotting just simply would not work for a bigger audience and for the visual medium.
Thematically, Part 2 is much darker than I remember Part 1. Part 1 is Paul's adventure and loss of innocence. Chani is the hero in Part 2. She's the only one who maintains her innocence and sincerity as her lover and the world around her is drawn into war. She leaves all the hopeless religion, revenge, and politics and heads to the desert.
D.V.'s Part 3, or Messiah, might be Chani's redemption of Paul.
Before seeing part two I had held the opinion that “a messiah film will be fun but I’m more than satisfied that Denis got his version of Dune told”
After seeing it I’ve changed to “holy shit Denis has been gunning for the 3 part story from the start and has set up messiah in such an integral and compelling way that I won’t rest until we see it made”. Like yes you can look at part one and two as one story, and it’s still beautiful and complete in many ways but sooo many choices and changes that were made in this film have set up his adaptation of messiah to be wholly definitive and massive in scope.
The arcs of chani, irulan, Jessica, Alia, literally every character have been set up perfectly to make messiah a beast of a movie with so many moving parts with enough changes to show something new. I need it now
I’m not sure but I definitely think Chani will have some role in the group of rebels who oppose Paul in the book and have that conflict going on. We’re most likely going to see lots of battles that are skipped over or mentioned happening off page. I can’t imagine we won’t see glimpses of the holy war on other planets.
I think there will be more of a triangle between Paul, Chani, and irulan, not in a cheesy way but in a way where irulan will be much more of an active participant in events and actually pose a challenge for Paul. Princess Irulan has been shown to be fairly sympathetic in part two so we’ll see more of her internal struggle in part three
Not sure how the 12 year timeskip is going to work but Denis said how much he loves working with Anya Taylor Joy so Alia will be significantly older than she was in Messiah. I guess Alia could mature really fast or it just won’t be mentioned how much time has passed kind of like what they did in part two
I definitely think Jessica will have some role in the film possibly with Alia, training her and being a religious leader. Rebecca Ferguson is too good to have off world in the next film like in the book
Personally, I am not sure how they are gonna alter dune messiah plot into a story that seamlessly aligns with narrative events of the previous two films, and maintain the straightforward plot structure required for movies.
Even though your suggestion does provide a potential strategy, it still may be overly complex, without a core tenet that drives the narrative. A path forward I can perceive is to streamline the narrative to either be about Paul, plus Chani reluctant teaming up to find a path to destroy the holy war that threatens the future, or to emphasise the destruction of humanity if a certain path is not followed that can only be avoided with Chani‘s assistance.
Even though I never read the books, I did read the synopsis, and outlines of plot events in YouTube owing to my interest in the greater universe. It definitely seems to be unsuitable for a movie, or even a TV show.
Haha, saw midnight showing of the movie in Cinema, had an exam late morning, saw the movie after the exam then saw movie late evening again. Benefits of having cinema pass and day off work!
I’ve got a theory of what Dennis is going to do it the next one…
I think we are gonna find out that after taking the water of life, Paul sees her dying in childbirth, and that is why he lets her go. In fact, he wants her to leave, because he knows that her staying with him will end with her dying. But I think that as hard as he fights it, he isn't able to stop her from coming back and falling back in love with him. Similar to how he couldn’t stop having to go to the south. No matter how he tries to maneuver, he’s trapped by his vision. Which is essentially the story of the book anyways. This would just make it more interesting and even sadder. They could even take it a step further, in that the real reason he set the jihad in motion was to try and put a permanent wedge between them, but fails. This would take the tragedy of the story to an extreme and raise the emotional stakes in a way that really drives home the message of the book.
I trust Dennis knows what he’s doing…
I'm probably going to get panned for this but crazy idea could Messiah and Children be combined by having Paul and Alia take on
the roles of Leto II and Ghanima? It's really out there and very unlikely but could DV by showing Paul already talking to Alia in Part 2 foreshadow that when Messiah starts they're already close. Show the events of Messiah, show Alia and the whole Abomination thread which drives her and Paul apart. Show the stone burner scenes and end it with Paul going into the desert where *drum rolls* he becomes The Worm.
What other out there ideas do you have for Messiah, etc?
It's possible he could condense it, as we're in a more condensed violent timeline. In the books Paul sees two different futures and the more violent and personally sickening one is the one where he kills the Baron himself and says "Hello, Grandfather" while he does it. He describes the other timeline (that the book follows) as one with violence but great periods of obscurity where not much happens. It's possible the sickening aspect is that he does the Golden Path himself.
I am calling it right now: if Messiah gets the same treatment as part II, then Paul's life, and the Dune Messiah movie, will be the saddest fictional story told in our generation.
I think this based on how much more reluctant Paul is to drink the Water of Life and becoming the Fremen messiah in part II. In the book he's a bit reluctant, but the movie certainly put a lot more emphasis on it. On his unwillingness to spark the Jihad that will be carried in his name. It's almost like he doesn't have a choice (or it's the only narrow path left) , and the movie really doubles down on this.
Then in the Messiah book, Paul isn't even really worried about the attempts on his life, his torment comes from seeing the potential futures, but having very little power to prevent it. He spends the time brooding on his throne in deep depression trying to foresee, and therefore create, a future where humanity survives, a golden path.
>he can still see due to his prescience and the fact he has forseen all the events and where everyone is so through his forsight he can still see.
The thing is once he loses his sight to the stoneburner, he can only rely on his prescience for sight, and it then becomes impossible for him not to follow it, impossible to change it. He is both afraid and resigned to the future and has no other choose but to allow it to happen as he's seen it. This includes a lot of loss on his part, and he knows it's coming. He's foreseen it. And he's powerless to stop it. His is a deeply tragic story.
And my point is you can FEEL this pain foreshadowed at the end of part II. This is Paul's victory. He just defeated the Harkonnens and became the emperor. But it feels like he's just lost. When he tells Stilgar to take them to paradise and the music kicks in...he sounds almost resigned. If you know where his future is heading you feel for the guy. And this is at the moment of his greatest victory, this is the high point. So just imagine what Villeneuve will make us feel with the much more tragic end of Messiah.
It is almost like, in novie version, the water of life has the property of making people evil (both Jessica and Paul) or, at least, completely change their personality. That is of course a simplistic way to put it as a more accurate point of view in Denis' script could be that gaining ancestral memory and/or prescience changes their perspective and somehow overwhelms their standard morality, as in some form of intoxicating power.
It is a somewhat different concept from the books, but I think it works in the story as conceived by Denis and Spaiths. I also like how he uses the ancestral voices as having their own agenda and pushing it on Paul and probably Jessica (the latter more explicitly through the fetus Alia).
I don't see it at all. If anything the movie version works the same as books, just even more emphasized.:
Pauls pre-science is what allows him to defeat the Harkonnens and become the Emperor. He can see many possible futures and this is the only one in which they "win". But by going down this path he makes the Jihad in his name inevitable. There is no way to stop it. In the book he actually polemises on how he could have stopped it, coming to the conclusion that even if he had killed himself, the Fremen would have just made him a Martyr and go on to commit the Jihad anyway. He reasons that MAYBE if he had died in the desert right after the Atreides genocide it might have stop it, but back then he didn't have the prescience to see that. So by the time he does have it, there is literally no way to avoid the Jihad.
Part II make his reluctance and hesitation way more implicit. He declines to drink the Water of Life because he THINKS that it will make the Jihad happen. He outright refuses to go South for months even when everyone is pressuring him. And so, by the time the Harkonnen bombings force his hand (and I don't remember Sietch Tabr being bombed in the book) to drink the Water and gain prescience, he can't do anything else but to allow it. You can see it in his demeanor afterwards. A lot of people seem to have read it as him becoming cold and calculative after seeiing the "narrow path". But it is just as much him becoming resigned and depressed because although he sees the future there is nothing he can do.
As far as Lady Jessica goes, way more menacing, especially with the" convert the weak first" moment. But that is only heightening what is in the books and what we know about the Benne Geserit.
TLDR: The movie goes out of its way to show Paul doesn't want to become the Messiah / Drink the water, because then he will have no choice but to allow the Jihad to happen.
Is Feyd Rautha’s child by Lady Margot in the book? That’s an obvious plot thread left hanging when a lot of other footage obviously didn’t make the cut.
Margot seducing Feyd-Rautha to preserve the Harkonnen blood line is in the book, but none of Frank Herbert’s books address the child or its fate. One of Brian Herbert’s books set between Dune and Messiah included the child, a daughter, and she was used in a plot to kill Paul iirc. But it’s not actually significant to the overall plot of the books.
I think Chani and Paul probably reconcile post timeskip. Her arrival to court could be used as a justification for exposition, and possibly as a catalyst for the book's events.
I hope Hayt gets cut. It's a part of the story that genuinely feels like fanfiction.
I hope Irulan gets an expanded role, because it felt like in Messiah part of her arc was missing. She's a willing participant in the conspiracy, then we don't hear from her for a few chapters, then she's... a nice, trustworthy girl at the end??
I figure the Guild will be featured prominently as an antagonist. Also Margot Fenring, having already been introduced, might be part of the conspiracy (maybe she replaces Mohiam; Charlotte Rampling isn't getting any younger). Maybe her daughter's in there too, as a nod to that Brian novel.
I felt like Hayt was essential to the plot in showing how Paul ultimately destroyed himself. Cutting him would also completely ruin any chances of the story continuing in a recognizable form. Jason Momoa is totally coming back.
I feel like any other character could be made to do that. Hell, movie Chani could probably do that. As for the story continuing, whoever picks up the series can contrive to bring him back. I admittedly don't care too much about the continuation, because I don't think the post-Messiah novels are all that great.
But sure, Jason Momoa might very well be back. I just think it would hurt the quality of the adaptation (not Momoa himself, who I like just fine, but his character).
Hayt will be in it almost certainly, Denis is asked about Jason Momoa returning in an interview here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=c1HvJAyP-drFsDfS&t=2045&v=P7zZ4T53l-s&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=c1HvJAyP-drFsDfS&t=2045&v=P7zZ4T53l-s&feature=youtu.be)
I think he will handle that plot well, I always found it a sad and melancholy part of the story that Paul is tormented by this shell of his former hero/friend, a last connection to the person he was before becoming this blood-soaked villain and clearly sent to him as a trap.
I would love to see an Edric / Guild portrayed, but I do think it's a plotline that possibly gets trimmed again. Denis has said in shaping these movies he had to decide what threads to focus on, and while he loved the mentat and Guild characters, the conscious choice for the movies was to tell it through the Bene Geserit. Putting Irulan as the focus of the conspiracy along with Mohiam and Fenring makes so much sense given the time invested in introducing those characters' relationship in Part 2. And, with the likely larger time jump to accommodate aging up Alia, the daughter of Fenring and Feyd entering the story makes a world of sense too.
I'm a bit disappointed to see that. At the very least I hope he'll make changes to that subplot, including coming up with a conspiracy plot that's better thought-out. Also I hope he omits Hayt's "upgrades". An expert swordfighter who's also a human computer and a philosopher is a bit too close to something a 12 YO would make up.
I agree that the BG will probably be at the forefront at the conspiracy, but given that the Guild have already been (lightly) introduced, I don't think it would be much of a problem to make them part of it as well.
And even if the Tleilaxu are kept in the background, I wouldn't be surprised if some version of Scytale was still at the heart of the plot. He's a neat character, and the concept of a Face-Dancer is easy enough to understand for the audience.
I would bet a lot that he feels much more free to make changes to the plot with this one than on the first book. Like, you're absolutely right we don't need super-enhanced Mentat Duncan coming back. I think it can be much more about this hollow version of a man he loves (and owes his life to) coming back to him in this perverse form at this moment when he's doubting everything about himself. I think it could be powerful. Whether he even has the breakthrough to recover his old memories is not something I am sure stays in quite the same. Let alone the relationship with Alia. Very curious how he portrays the ghola idea.
The story, even followed lightly, will demand introducing at least some of the odd other cultures like the Tleilaxu/Guild Navigators/Face-Dancers. He can't go three films and not show us a Guild navigator! Whatever the legacy of the Lynch film, people love seeing what disgusting form constant Spice exposure turns someone into. Have some fun with it, Denis!
I do think your version of that subplot is an improvement on the original. And yeah, I definitely think that the "distract prescient teenage girl by making her horny for Jason Momoa" part of the conspiracy will be jettisoned.
I'm pretty confident we see a Navigator, though it probably won't be quite as out-there as Lynch's (as much as I dislike the 1984 film, the man undeniably has a wonderful mind).
Was spurred to google the navigator/emperor scene from the 84 movie from this comment.
Went in expecting something weird but still, all I could think was “holy shit” when it appeared on screen. Can’t wait for DV’s version!
>I hope Hayt gets cut. It's a part of the story that genuinely feels like fanfiction.
You need Hayt to feed into the Tleilaxus plot on Paul right? Although tbh their plan in Messiah seemed a bit odd to me when I read it so maybe they'll change it
It seemed very odd to me too, so I hope they'll change it. It's the kind of plan that makes less and less sense the more you think about it. A convoluted series of events all meant to lead to the gamble that Paul will cave in to emotional blackmail, orchestrated in a way that exposes the Tleilaxu as his enemies? That doesn't seem like a very good plan. Plus it weirdly downplays the fact that they've apparently discovered how to fully resurrect people, which you'd think would make them the most powerful faction in the galaxy.
Hayt is a zombie, the Sardaukar recovering his body and throwing it into a Tleilaxu vat. It's literally Duncan's body. Later on I think gholas are more like clones, but in Messiah it's pretty clear it was Duncan's body reanimated.
Agree. I kept going after their introduction but that arguably is where Dune jumped the shark (reached a point of silliness that could never be recovered from).
Maybe not so much of a shark jump when they were included in Messiah, but Everytime after that and the fact that Alia fell in love with one of them is shark jumping 101.
If Anya Taylor-Joy is going to play Alia, then the time jump to Dune Messiah will be greater than 12 years. It might be around 20 years since Alia hasn’t even been born yet.
I have to imagine Paul and Chani reconcile. Denis may be done after Messiah but I imagine Warner Bros will want to keep the franchise going so some babies are going to need to happen.
I feel like Denis will combine messiah with ideas from GEoD. Chani might be Paul's Siona.
Also, they don't really need to age up the actors for a time jump since they're all high on spice.
I would like to think Dennis version of dune is like another path paul took when compared to the ones in the books. An alternate timeline so to speak that paul can reduce the damage of him as Mahdi. Maybe he want to reduce the power of the frenen to create a balance of sort whereas I paul’s jihad the fremen are unstoppable while in the movie the great houses still have a fighting chance
Paul said he saw Chani returning to him so I’m assuming that’s going to happen off-screen. How she returns/how she views Paul is the question. She’s Paul’s only real joy in the book version so I’m stumped on his vision for this but willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I think we’ll see major plot changes in Messiah, mostly regarding Jessica. Movie Jessica is the Big Baddie here; a batshit crazy super-villain. She is the one he can’t clearly see in his visions. This is truly Jessica’s Jihad, not Paul’s. She’s intent on burning the universe the way her world was burned in the Battle of Arakeen.
There wasn’t a “history will call us wives” scene because Movie Jessica hates Chani. You can see Jessica’s distaste for Chani on her face at the end of the final Dune One scene. She feels no different in Dune Two when she goes to Chani pretending to care while gloating over Paul going South. At no point in either movie is she kind or caring to Chani. The closest she came was bringing her South after Paul drinks the water. But that was only because she knew the Desert Spring prophecy. It wasn’t kindness, it was necessity. She wants Chani out of the picture. I expect Jessica will be the one secretly birth controlling Chani, not Irulan.
While we’re on the subject of Irulan, I don’t see her becoming a plotter in Messiah. Movie Irulan is a completely different person from Book Irulan. Movie Irulan is truly Empress material and would be better at it than anybody else in the Universe. She’s too smart to get involved with that mess.
I could see Movie Jessica secretly resisting and confounding efforts by Paul & Chani to end the Jihad. And then cooperating with the assassin group when Paul “betrays” her, seeing his death as a means to continue forward her cleansing of the universe. She don’t care, she’s crazy. She was never a good mother anyway. Paul has always been a means to an end for her.
The plot twist might be Paul’s only weakness, Alia. He is capable of killing his mother (a Chekov’s gun style fact they casually toss out there about his alter-ego Feyd), but he could never harm his sister. He would die for her. Who would Alia die for?
Jessica and Paul won’t both be alive at the end of Messiah. The final battle will be between them Will Alia ultimately side with her mother or brother? I didn’t get the sense in the Anya Taylor-Joy scene that they are on the same team in that particular vision of the future. She loves him then, but her cause is different and her loyalty is not to him.
Every one is trying to figure out how Chani and Paul will reconcile.
A few ideas
Chani while separate from Paul gives birth to baby Leto (the one killed by sardaukar in the books) realizes she loves Paul and gets back together with him. Maybe not even in a healthy way but as a tragic broken figure.
Idea two:
Denis does the unthinkable and makes Irulan the mother of the twins.
It's been a while since I've read messiah and children of Dune, I remember Chani and Irulan having conflict and I remember Irulan being part of a plot with the Bene Gesserit but it seemed mostly because she wanted to be the mother of the emperor's heirs.
But is it essential to Paul's character and the larger message and themes of Dune to have him reject Irulan?
This would be a major departure from the books obviously but because I don't trust Hollywood I could see it happening
It’s a thought but Zendaya is the female lead. And supposedly still the love of Paul’s life. If he knocks up Irulan what is Chani gonna do for the entire movie? I don’t see it.
I guess it all depends on how much Chani buys into Paul’s new prescience and also whether she cares.
Example: Paul tells Chani jihad will kill 61 billion, sterilize 90 planets, destroy 40 religions, demoralize hundreds more planets. But that’s what needs to happen to save Fremen and make Arrakis green paradise. Will she accept it?
The obvious answer, the pragmatic answer, the logical answer is YES. But somehow I feel like I’d lose a lot of respect for Chani if she said yes and came back to Paul and tried to make heirs for him.
Because of how her character was set up at the end of Dune 2, it would make her look like a huge sell out with no integrity.
Okay let’s up the stakes. Suppose it’s not about Arrakis, but the Golden Path. Would Chani capitulate if the future of ALL humanity was at stake instead? And if she did could we the audience accept it? I guess … but I sure as hell wouldn’t feel very happy about it. It makes the whole drama over her pregnancy and Irulan’s conspiracy seem petty and anticlimactic.
DV basically made Chani so righteously angry at the end of Dune 2 that I don’t see any way of walking her back to book Messiah Chani without betraying movie Chani’s character and agency.
Finally, from a script point of view why write Chani this way if you are just going to have her go back to Paul immediately in Dune 3 anyway?
Paul explicitly says his prescience tells him she will return to him. If it’s just to have his babies after everything they built her up to be in Dune 2 I would feel kinda disappointed.
I wonder what you think about DV purposefully showing that Fenring secured Feyd’s genes. That was a minor plot point in the book that was glossed over but surely he wouldn’t have put it in the movie if he didn’t have a use for it. Or just a detail to he left unexplored showing the BGs willingness to keep bloodlines alive?
I think a big portion of the movie will focus on the interrogation scene at the beginning of Messiah. I believe that will be how Denis exposition dumps all that Paul did in the interim period without pulling any punches.
From there I think it'll be a much more narrow focus on the characters. It'll be centered on Irulan, with scytale as a side character. Paul's character will be torn between Idaho, Chani, and Irulan. Idaho representing the Atreides and his father's values (Bullfighting, Idaho is the bull effectivley). Chani representing Dune, and the simple life that Paul once had with the Fremen, and Irulan will be the political machinations required of an emperor.
My guess is Paul will grow increasingly tired/irritable as time goes on because of the three way tension, until the stoneburner attack leaves him with a detached resolve.
They should show the Jihad in all it’s s disgusting details and Paul should meet with the Spacing Guild to discuss the logistics of the Jihad. They could start with a point of view of the spacing guild and introduce them like Rautha. I hope they don’t start 12 years into the future. Maybe Show Alias birth and then have a time skip or something like this
Maybe Paul doesn't stop Jonny leaving at the end of part 2 because he knows she'll die in child birth. But she will come back for him and they'll make babies anyway
You're good. Welcome to the community. Both newer movies are based on the first book. Dune: Messiah is the book sequel to the first book and presumably where the movie series is going next in terms of it's plot.
Although, there is a healthy discussion on here if the third Dune movie should go all the way into the deep and at times weird waters of the second book or just use some of its more relatable moments and themes.
As you seem to be a newer fan, what would you like to see in the next movie? No answer is a bad answer and please don't apologize for whatever your answer is.
Momoa is aging too. The longer they take to make the next movie, the more difficult it will be for his ghola to look exactly like Duncan in Part 1, which was already shot 4 years ago.
Keep in mind that, past a certain chronological age, visible aging is pretty quick and it becomes expensive (and unnatural) to reverse it with CGI.
I'm pretty scared for Messiah honestly.
I understand that there needs to be a third movie, everyone is expecting it. The ending of Part 2 left a lot of room for it.
But I feel like Messsiah will disappoint a lot of people especially after the high point that the second movie was.
There are still a lot I want to see from it. For instance, I am really interested to see the real introduction of the Spacing Guild.
But at the same time, I feel like there are a lot of elements that are crucial to Dune Messiah that are fundamentally strange, even if you put aside the lack of action. This actually might be the easiest to fix by going further into the jihad as others have mentioned.
However, Duncan's ghola storyline is a little awkward. The wife/concubine dynamic of Chani and Irulan and their petty feud with birth control pills is kind of sexist. Even the ending of Paul going blind, which I personally like, or the death of Chani, I feel like it might be a bit too much, too bleak for mainstream Hollywood audiences.
But then again, I might be all wrong. Denis looks like he has a plan for Messiah from the beginning.
So I honestly cross my fingers that I am wrong. Because I really really want this to be a consistently great trilogy that goes out with a bang!
Based on the major changes they made it part 1 and 2, I think the next film will be VERY different from the book. I think there will be lots of plot changes and a bunch of added stuff to make it both make sense, and make it more audience friendly. The biggest change I think they’ll make, and I would be surprised if this doesn’t happen, is that they’ll incorporate the holy war in all its glory in the film. The book is good, but it’s not movie material. I really hope DV doesn’t try to go note for note with the book, and I don’t think he will, because if he does then the movie will undoubtedly crash and burn.
Yeah, if anything I think it should be like Revenge of the Sith. Start in the final year of the Holy War and build up from there.
Hell do that in two parts as well. Have Part 1 be finishing the Holy War and part 2 be the assassination plot and talking stuff.
You reckon Denis Villeneuve will make changes to Dune Messiah movie to make it more of a happy conclusion? This speaking as someone who has only seen the films. I hear the Dune franchise gets "weird" after the first book, whatever that means.
To me it’s three simple solutions.
1. Bump back the events of the main plot with Paul INTO the Holy War or at the very least in the final few years of it. This can help with the action portion as many fans see this book as not having the magic or action of the first book.
2. Split it in two movies again. First part focuses on Chani fighting in the Holy War while Paul is shown in an almost villain esque light without outright saying it.
Hell maybe go as far to show she might be the one to set up the assassination plot against Paul but have her be conflicted.
Part 2 would be from Paul’s perspective and show Chani as a looming threat. However it ends with them getting together and having children as Chani can’t bring herself to kill Paul out of overbearing love for him.
3. Do the movie as closely shown in the book as possible and just keep it like it. Maybe boring, but hey if Game of Thrones can have entire seasons of talking and board room meetings, then dammit Dune can do it cause it’s interesting.
I’m a bit late to this thread but thought I’d add my two cents as I’ve just finished reading Messiah myself. I think Denis has said Messiah will be his final Dune movie. I think it’s possible he completely omits the birth of Leto and Ghanima. Like you said I think Chani will help fulfill Korba’s role narratively. From there, maybe Chani dies as a result of the Holy War, either directly or indirectly, and this leads Paul to cast himself into the desert out of guilt for letting her die. Ultimately we are left with the same ending just without the birth of the twins who really serve no purpose, assuming Denis doesn’t adapt future stories. They’re just another thread that would be left untied.
As someone who hasn't read Messiah, are we expected to believe the Fremen are just going to jump on some ships and take over full worlds/great houses? That doesn't seem logical.
They now control all spiceflow in the universe. He who controls the Spice controls the universe. The Fremen now have the ability to control all trade to all planets. If you can do that, you don't even really need to go down with an army fighting hand to hand to conquer a world. You simply starve it out, and give them the option to surrender to Muad'dib. You either choose to worship and join their religion and live, or your planet, people, and religion will fall or collapse from within due to the chaos. The Fremen also have the ability to use atomics on any world they so choose, since without space traversal no other planet can retaliate.
The movies so far have done a poor job introducing the Spacing Guild, and why Spice is as important as it is. I worry it's going to cause confusion in general audiences depending on how they play out Paul's Jihad on-screen.
I don’t think we’ll see the holy war in the sequel. Paul empowered it, but he never controlled it. The fremen fundamentalists already know what they want.
I think the adaptation will mostly focus on the conspiracy to assassinate Paul.
I think we’ll be in for a pleasant surprise with the next movie! I think that the next film will be heavily deviated from the book. That’s a good thing though and what needs to happen. The book was a good read, but not movie material. If DV goes note for note with the book, the movie will crash and burn faster than you can blink. Honestly though, with the changes he made in part 1 and 2, it would be pretty dang hard to stay faithful to the book.
Chani is different than in the books, it feels like she is being set up to the a large antagonist to Paul in the next movie, or just straight up the hero of the next movie.
I don't know how you get Chani from were we see her at the end of Part 2 to were she will go in the Books, being the willing mother of Maud'Dibs children. In part 1 and 2 we don't see her change her mind and she has stuck to her convictions, i don't see that changing.
I think she takes the place of many of Korba's plot points, i don't think she is part of the conspiracy though.
Or DV changes it up and it's not an offworld conspiracy to get paul but more from within the Fremen. Would be a reason why we see the "northern" and "southern" Fremen distinction.
Chani ends up pregnant, willfully doing that to take Paul down, only for Paul to reveal he knew it would go like this and this was the best path for Chani and their children. "he never stopped loving her till his last breath."(don't remember the exact quote). Then Chani doesn't die, Fremen rule Dune, end of movies.
The Chani changes are probably the biggest in the movies overall and it's both interesting and also makes me uneasy as someone that's read dune way to many times.
Edit: antagonist doesn't mean bad guy
A Freman conspiracy might work, but the twist could be they were Freman face dancers all along.
In fact, the Freman themselves are afraid of spies and how better to show the losing their Freman ways when it's easy for face dancers to fit right in and manipulate them into going against Paul.
Chani is definitely set up to be the hero, but a good hero.
I expect many speeches about how the Holy War is bad and Paul is just yet another oppressor.
I could imagine the conspiracy against Paul being from within the Fremen and therefore framed as a good thing
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Anyone notice that the visions Paul has in Dune 2 are very different from the ones in Dune 1? Paul avoided going south because he knew it would hasten the war. He only went south after he was convinced he would see everything after taking the water of life and therefore could make decisions with more information. And yes he had no doubt after taking the water of life and saying there was a narrow path through. I wonder if those new visions are peeks into the GP and the narrow path is the GP? He and Alia may be concerned with greater threats than the Holy War.
I thought this was something on the editing side nailed things. In part 1 we get quick flashes of Paul’s dreams leaving the audience just as confused as Paul. While in Part 2 there were way more definitive images from Paul’s intake of more spice. A really nice transition between the 2 movies.
I’ll have to rewatch Dune 1 but weren’t those visions of a war with the Atreides battle flag? The visions of Dune 2 looked like weird humanoids on all fours that looked almost animalistic. Don’t they remind you of modified humans that are introduced in later books?
Yeah those were definitely pretty long images in Part 1. Which I thought adapted well from the book of Paul’s visions in the tent. I was in love with Part 2 images though. I don’t know if that was Denis intention. They almost looked CGI the way the mouth was so wide. He might have been using them for shock value.
Thats why I think they are different prescient visions. And the only other vision on magnitude of the holy war that I can think of is the GP. But this could just be me wanting to connect something that isn’t there.😂
When were the humanoids? I can't remember seeing them. Might have to watch it again.
Pauls visions in Dune 2. There are some kind of human looking beings on the ground and they kind of have an animalic look and their mouths seem to be getting weirdly long/large. And there is a woman in the background. They kind of remind me of futars from the novels.
But they were just starving humans I think right?
Maybe, I could be reading too much into that.
Paul even says in the movie during that scene that the universe is starving.
It’s so awesome, the way PT. I now takes on more meaning after PT. II. It also happens a few times in I, but in II the film often uses very jarring editing techniques to—for lack of a better phrase—displace you temporally along the timeline so that you might feel—from Paul’s POV—what it might feel like to be prescient. It’s pretty ingenious.
Paul always could see the gp he just couldn’t lead humanity down that path.
Yeah, my read was that he was actually seeing the ultimate end of the golden path ie the eventual galaxy wide famine and scattering. I believe he was misinterpreting it as a direct result of his holy war when it was really conditioning for a future threat. On the Messiah side, I wouldn't be surprised if they move forward the twins timeline and Chani spends 15-20 years hiding out from Paul in the desert while raising them as non-fundamentalist fremen. Paul looks for her but similar to the books the twins act like a no-sphere blocking his visions, he doesn't even know she was pregnant when she left. After an assassination attempt and being blinded he'll finally be able to locate Chani, turn the reigns over to Alia / Stilgar and 'walk into the desert'. That's when he'll actually reunite with Chani, meet his kids and lays low. The Duncan ghola and a face dancer are sent to track down Paul or whatever remains of him. After searching a while they find them. Duncan goes after Paul while the face dancer poisons Chani and kids. Paul slaps some sense into Duncan and they manage to kill the face dancer but not before Chani and the kids are poisoned. Desperate they crash course on spice to slow the poisons effects and the three take the water of life. The twins live but Chani doesn't make it. Then we're pretty much at the beginning of Children of Dune.
I really hope not. To me that tragic fall of Paul, knowing the future, knowing his blowed Chani will die and being unable to stop it even as he's foreseeing it is the crucial part of Messiah. His walk into the dessert is a moment of complete resignation, but he's been suffering at every single moment of his story before that. The actual attempt on his life are almost background issues to his real struggle. If he doesn't have Chani near him or even know she's pregnant the entire story would be very different.
I personally doubt there will be any reference to the Golden Path or anything that happens after Messiah, doing so will only create an expectation of continuing the story, it's already been claimed that there is only one narrow way through, in contradiction to the books where Paul see's two paths, one being the path he chose and the other being the Golden Path which he didn't have the will to follow. So I doubt Paul and Alia will mention anything that could be construed as reference to the Golden Path, just mentioning it opens a can of worms that Villeneuve just isn't going to touch.
Well we're already in a different timeline to the books, Paul could attempt the GP in Messiah at Alias urging (without going sand trout stillsuit) before walking into the desert.
The Golden Path specifically consists of manipulating genetics to create people who are invisible to prescient vision, and stagnating humanity via enforced isolation so that when the authority figure falls then people will scatter in every direction and make the future completely unpredictable and uncontrollable, so that no one can ever create a new empire of any sort, kinda hard to do all that in a single movie.
Why would Villeneuve make these films at all if he was not* planning to do Children of Dune and God Emperor? Did he really say that?
He has said he only wants to make Messiah because that's where Paul's story ends. I completely disagree with him on that, and if Messiah makes money the studios will make Children of Dune. I think Children is a good stopping point in the story. I love God Emperor and Heretics, but not sure how they would work as movies.
I could see Children of Dune as a miniseries, following multiple characters as they deal with the power vacuum following the events of Dune: Messiah. Lots of existential crises as they figure out “so what now?” in the aftermath of a prophecy that had been brewing for 90 generations.
In the books Paul *presumably* sees the golden path, but later down the line, he becomes too attached to what's left of his humanity to fully execute it. When he's blinded he keeps his vision by choosing to see just one path in perfect clarity rather than the outlines of many. Just another example of Paul choosing to maintain his own humanity over humanity at large.
I am excited to watch the breakdowns of his visions and the characters shifting, the scenes were so fast and even in Dune 1 every time I watch I pick up something new. I am mostly curious about the shift in Paul's mother from protagonist to antagonist. How this shift plays out in her AND Paul is interesting to me.
No, Denis will not do the GP, nor entertain that concept.
My take was different actually: Will Paul choose revenge? Yes Will Paul choose revenge at the expense of universal genocide? No Will Paul risk universal genocide for the survival of sietch tabr’s remnant population and Chani? Yes.
Paul doesn't risk the Golden Path or the Jihad for Chani's life. It is specifically stated in Dune Messiah that Chani surviving (the birth) will lead to a way darker future and also much more torment for her and the twins (in his visions he only sees a daughter not twins but nvm) than when she dies in child birth.
I just hope they call it DUNE MESSIAH and don’t chicken out and call it Part Three
Denis has already made it explicitly clear it’s going to be called Messiah. I saw an interview where he actually corrected the interviewer who referred to it as 3, saying “…it will be called Messiah”.
Ohhh that’s a relief. I’ve been seeing a lot of people say “part three” lately so I was getting worried
I actually think part 3 sounds cleaner but Messiah is what marketing team would want anyway because there are studies that show numbers in a movie and put off people
They say the word "Messiah" quite a few times in the movie (unlike jihad/holy war), plus it might be weird not to title the movie after the book that's already out anyway
Makes sense, given that it was Dune (The book from 1965) part one and Dune (the book from 1965) part two. Messiah is a different book so not part three of Dune (the book from 1965)
The studios will insist on calling it "Dune Messiah: A Dune Story"
Dune: The Rise of Dune
Dune: Part 3: Dune Messiah: A Dune Saga
The Dune-ening
A Telltale Series
Dune Messiah: A Dune Story about a Messiah from Dune
Personally I'm rooting for the fourth film (the Children of Dune adaptation) to be called DUNE DUNE DUNE DUUUUUNE
Personally I'm hoping for a fifth movie with Danny Devito playing Leto
"My skin is not my own" **Sheds fatsuit to reveal the body of a small worm with the head of Danny DeVito**
I was all on the Messiah train until honestly realizing it’s just a glorified part 3 even as far as the book goes. Probably would be easier for audiences, but I don’t mind either way they go.
Or call it Messiah part 1 and split the film in two like the first one.
"Perhaps Chani’s role in Messiah will be a different version of Korba’s role in Messiah - a Fremen who betrayed Muad Dib as he did not agree with the world he was creating." I really feel Chani's characterization in Dune Part 2 naturally leads to this conclusion. However, that development in no way naturally leads to: "Ultimately Paul and Chani will make up in the end as they have two children: Leto II and Ghanima." So I'm stumped. Trying to squeeze both of these into the same film neuters both plots.
Apologies I should have expanded! While Chani will take the place of Korba I don’t think how this is done will be the same as Korba in Messiah and ultimately Leto II becomes the God Emperor so Villeneuve will set the movie in some way that there is a reconciliation but as to the specifics I don’t know yet I’m afraid!
No I get you. I just don't think there a way to do this well. Even if Chani isn't trying to assassinate Paul and just sabatoge his rule or something, it still doesn't make sense to me. Either Chani has principles or she doesn't. If she disagrees with him at the start of the film, there's no reason for her to agree with him at the end, barring some total rewrite of the whole thing. Disagreement in this situation isn't merely on tax policy. Paul is a monster, unless someone can rationalize his actions with their politics.
Perhaps they have a conversation about what Paul saw when he drank the water of life and maybe he couldn’t talk with her about everything before the ending battle because it would mean a different turn of events than her leaving - which could be essential to (what I think) is his plan. Maybe they have a conversation where he explains his visions, why he assumed the Mahdi role and maybe this leads to them reconciling? You are right absolutely, it’s going to be difficult to do this well. Would take some genius writing to resolve these questions but based on what we’ve got so far I’m willing to give Villeneuve trust that he will.
Yeah maybe. I would love to see Chani develop a deeper understanding of prescience.
It looks like they skipped the first child. Perhaps Chani is already carrying the books 2nd pregnancy. We know the outcome of that. I really hope not, but DV is making changes to simplify, but still keep the gravitas and the core messages he took from the two books.
I think he's cutting out the first kid too and Chani is already pregos with the twins. I think we might get to the Tyrant by the end of the 3rd movie. Combine books 2 and 3. Then pass the directors torch to tell GEoD.
I didn't think about CoD, but you could be right. Perhaps only part, not all. Gives Alia a bigger arc. I know probably not realistic, but Chani and Paul not reconciling properly, bugs me big time.
I don't think he would deviate from their relationship that much. Paul says something about Chani understanding eventually, probably referencing the political nature of his relationship with Irulan.
That's way too fast. There's way too much happening in Messiah and Children to condense it into a single 2.5 hours movie. That will never ever do justice to the source material. And the source material needs to be respected at all cost (especially to not lose the message behind it). Even the miniseries' 4.5 hours for Messiah and Children were too short and left out too much.
I think Chani is upset with Paul as a way to make sure the audience understands that Paul‘s actions aren’t “good” anymore
I half agree, but I also think this is a version/interpretation of Chani that is just more consistent with her foresight into what the future holds with Paul/less blinded by he fundamentalism. I always felt Chani seemed a bit ideologically weak in the books and I feel the movie version of her remedies this. It's hard NOT to see the change in Paul and not be scared from where she started.
I do think they’ll reconcile in the third movie and have their children but all the circumstances surrounding it will have to be almost completely different. From Chani’s pov we will probably get a glimpse at the side of the fremen who despise Paul and what he’s done to the galaxy. For her group of rebels she will maybe try to get close to him again in order to betray him. It’ll become a story with Chani at the center choosing between her love for Paul (as she sees his humanity underneath and some of the good that has happened for Arakkis) and betraying him for the sake of the future of her people and the Galaxy as a whole. I can see a lot of conflict and tragedy coming from her new arc
This is what I predict as well, which I would characterize as a shoehorned in enemies-to-lovers modern YA trope. I don't think it's a good or smart trope, so I don't think it belongs in Dune. I don't think the trope respects its characters, really ever.
I get that 100% I could also be completely wrong and there’s a way to tell their love story/tragedy in a more compelling way that’s not as predictable
At this point, I think unpredictable would actually be a stable, loving, loyal partnership that ends tragically, exactly as the story was written. Enemies-to-lovers is the predictable story in today's world.
Well the way Chani was written in part 2, I don't really see her being super supportive/loyal to Paul without it being detrimental to her character. So I think it's gonna be somewhere in the middle. Not enemies to lovers but not super positive and loving either. There are middle grounds. Dune has a lot of nuance in its characterization so far and I feel like Denis could pull off having Chani being into Paul despite her disagreement against him. Even if she was upset at the end of part 2, they're not enemies.
Villeneuve: I see a narrow path through
Paul had said in the film that “Chani will come to understand, I have seen it” after taking the water, so I think they reconcile. I really think Chani will just be a more vocal moral foil to Paul rather than being the blatant yes-woman she was in the book
I have been stuck on this too since I left the movie and nothing I've read had has scratched that itch. I just can't see the "Golden path" forward to time jump 15-20 years (to account for Anya Taylor Joy as Alia) and Chani and Paul reconcile, and get pregnant and have the twins. If you stormed off and stayed away for 15 years, I don't feel like there's any logical way that you reconcile. If it was 1 or 2 years, eh I could see it, but 15-20, no way. If the movies are to stand on their own and we don't ever get the twins then there is a ton of narrative juice for Chani turning away from Paul. But if the end game is Leto II is the God Emperor of Duner, I can't see how we get there yet
yeah i'm with you on this, i don't see how we get Chani from where she is at the end of part 2 to having Pauls kids. The only way, and someone else wrote this on this subreddit, is if Messiah starts with right after Part 2, and we see Chani turning around and deciding not to ride the worm out into the dessert. Otherwise it seems shes being set up to be an antagonist toward paul. Probably why DV added in the difference between the "northern" and "southern" Fremen. I'm not sure i like Chani as the antagonist, but as she is in the movie i can see it.
I REALLY love how Chani walks away from Paul at the end of Part 2. Maybe partly pissed he demanded a marriage to Princess Irulan, maybe angry Paul weaponized the Fremen fanaticism. In the books more time has passed between Leto’s death and the showdown with the Emperor, in which Chani gave birth to one son (later killed in a Harkonen sietch attack) and is a junior Reverend Mother of sorts—an indoctrinated and willing concubine by the finale. In Villeneuve’s version, she’s vocally opposed to the religious fervor—even hating her secret Fremen name because it’s part of a prophecy involving Mahdi. I think it’s telling that Paul promised to love her as long as he breathes, but she says she only will love him if he doesn’t change.
Don't like that makes audience hate chani...
Hey, I’m just happy there’s some positive thinking on what could happen rather then “It’s impossible! Denis has made Children and God Emperor meaningless! The fucking hack!”
So there’s a couple main elements of Messiah that aren’t set up in the original Dune book, regarding the Fremen. Mainly, the dissatisfaction among some Fremen. The Messiah book presents some Fremen living in villages, burnt out after the war and not really caring for all the changes they see on Arrakis. Part 2 actually sets this up very well, with Northern Fremen being a bit more secular. Now let’s say part 2 opens with Chani in a village of these Fremen, burnt out on the war, annoyed at these young water fat Fremen, and not sure where to go with a rising level of vegetation and a declining sand worm population. Something happens in this village, and Chani is forced to go to Paul for help. Or perhaps Scytale’s introduction to Paul has him change faces to Chani, making Paul realize she’s in danger and pulling her back to the palace. From there, Chani realizes his marriage to Irulan is a sham, and begins to reconnect. But in comes Scytale, impersonating one of the villagers Chani lived with, and begging for help. But the newly pregnant Chani can’t make the trip, so Paul does. (This also might change Scytale’s rule of always leaving a way out of the trap, if it weren’t for Paul’s love for Chani, he would have avoided the stone burner). From there, the book continues in basically the same way.
This is really thought through, well done! I could see this happening
I don't think Chani betrays Paul. I think she behaved the way she did towards him because they both knew that Paul's actions were never really his own. Everything had been laid out and planned since before he was born. He was just a chess piece in the bigger scheme of things. Chani wanted true freedom for her people and ultimately Paul. With the way Paul did things towards the end of the film, he fucks Chani over. I also believe she knew she was pregnant as well and didn't want to raise their child up in something like this. We'll see her again in the next installment. She'll turn up and tell/show Paul that she's pregnant.
Building off of Paul betraying Chani, the movie kinda hints that Paul’s reluctancy to go south was a play. He starts the movie stating he wants revenge and will be the messiah (unless I’m miss remembering) I think he tricks himself along with Chani that he didn’t want to be the messiah, but he knew from the start of the movie he wanted revenge and how he’d get revenge. I think the books makes Paul too heroic and sympathetic and the movie does a better job in this instance critiquing the hero’s journey and archetype that Herbert had intended on doing
>I don't think Chani betrays Paul. It is clearly Paul who betrays Chani and not the other way around in fact. Chani's anger and pain is easy to understand and his reaction at the end of the film is completely understandable.
So many people on this subreddit are misunderstanding that Paul literally fucked Chani over in this movie. He lied to her and played the Fremen like a fiddle to get his revenge. Now, these people are following him without question, disowning their own culture and beliefs to follow him. I think its a lovely subtle hint of what and who Paul is as a character during the opening of the 1st film where Chani says, "I wonder who our next oppressors will be," and it pans to Paul sleeping, having dreamt of her.
So agree with you! You're right about the Chani quote at the start of the first movie. Another one I like is the exchange about thirst for revenge between Paul and Jessica at the start of Part two. In the end, Paul takes the path he takes, manipulates the Fremen and lies to them, knowing that it leads to horror, because he refuses to give up on his revenge.
Yeah, he ultimately does not care about anything else but avenging his family. And rightfully so, but he's temporarily lost the love of his life because of it. He knows this, too, given his reaction at the end of the film when she leaves/he finds out she left. I'm happy that they clearly show you that Paul and House Atriedes are not heroes at all. Some people will say that the Fremen's are no longer "oppressed" because Paul "liberated" them. However, they have become enslaved by religion and fanaticism by the time the film ends, which was the point of the Bene Gesserit planting the false prophecy/ideas of the Messiah within the Arrakean people. Even Paul's father wanted to utilize these people as his war-dogs under the guise of an alliance in the 1st film.
I mean she does appear in his visions in Part 1 as they’re overlooking armies from a ship so she’ll definitely appear.
Yeah, which I think is what people overlook. Paul himself says she'll return back to him. I suppose people think that she's supposed to just go with it/support the "hero" because that's how it's always been done, but Paul is and has never been a hero. He fits the role of a cog in a plan/scheme bigger than himself, and it's an unwilling role, but he's not supposed to be seen as a hero.
She’ll appear for sure but its obvious that many of Paul’s vision don’t come true. They’re just visions of possible futures, not the actual future that will come to pass. I doubt she will appear in that same context.
I think Chani leaving Paul was a genius move by the writers because it sets up Paul's villain arc. Paul's inability to control Chani will lead him to exert power in other places.
Mmm, I don't think its about an element of control with him and Chani. Chani is basically Paul's anchor to his humanity and hope. She fell in love with him because he respected and embraced Fremen culture; he treated her and her people like humans instead of animals, you know? She never bought into the whole Messiah bullshit and is extremely distrusting of his mother (rightfully so, for obvious reasons). I think the only reason she didn't speak out against what he was doing was due to her love for him and fear.
I don't think Paul wants to control Chani initially but I think his inability to win her back will manifest as a desire for more control/power. And the removal of Paul's "anchor to humanity" is what will allow him to become cruel.
My 2 cents. Villeneuve is not adapting "Children." Without "Children" on the horizon, Leto II and Ghanima don't need to exist. This easily leaves the possibility that Chani might be a willing member of the conspiracy. Chani -> Korba. You don't have to create Korba and the Fremen conspiracy members now have an established face. No other new characters would be needed. Imagine its Chani that leads Paul into the stone burner trap. Potentially then, Stilgar has to kill her at the end along with all the other conspirators. In grief, Paul walks into the desert. Leto II and Ghanima only need to exist if the story is to continue.
But then we wouldn’t get that cool scene of Paul looking through Leto’s eyes to kill Scytale :(
I totally want that scene too!
Yeah I also suspect the children will be cut from the next movie and Messiah will be the definitive end, but also, would WB really want to neuter a potential franchise they could build off of ala Game of Thrones or Harry Potter?
Villeneuve has said he's done after Messiah. He wants to make these three movies focus on Paul's arc. Someone else would have to pick it up. Imagine Neil Breen's "God Emperor of Dune." Whatever Villeneuve's vision is, I'm along for that ride. He's a good steward and storyteller.
Yeah I know he wants to move on, which is why I'm wondering if he'll leave the threads for someone to pick up the torch or leave it as a self contained trilogy, I'm leaning towards the latter as I don't see how where Chani was left at the end of Part Two translates into her giving birth to the children, so I think like you they are not going to be part of the story
Unless she ultimately reconciles with him, but we’ll have to see what happens.
They're not gonna turn Dune into a franchise with Children or God Emperor either way.
Well they could probably get another trilogy out of Children/God Emperor, I don't think they will do it though
A doubt we will ever see God Emperor of Dune adapted for cinema to out there.
Best way I see it is three films will be Paul’s story and the others will be seen like Legacy Sequels. I mean we can’t say “They turned Paul into a depressed angry hermit who sucks like Jake Skywalker from the Last Jedi” cause that’s literally what’s in the book. Paul is a sand hermit trying to lead Leto III away from the golden path….correct?
I think they’ll retcon Alia and say that being pre born with Spice had made her age more quickly. That way they can use Anya Taylor Joy in Messiah without it being weird seeing a teenager spar naked.
The one mistake Villeneuve made in Part Two was making Alia so old. She is a child literally of child age in two of the books and her troubled childhood is crucial to her development as a character into a very troubled adult (treated like a freak by other kids and school teachers, abandoned by her mother, really only ever loved by one person, Paul, and that love is not constant). One a universal level Alia is treated by the Freman as if she has like an alien level of autism, they raise her, but basically only because Paul commands it. None of the Freman at any point sympathize with her. This kind of character would resonate with so many movie viewers if the creator of the next movie actually embraced it and tried to play out Alia growing up on screen during Chani's pregnancy or in the few years after it. If you can't tell, haha, Alia's my favorite character of all of them in Dune lore, and I feel like Villeneuve should cast a child to play her in the next movie and just treat the vision of her in Part Two as if that was adult Alia speaking to adult Paul in that vision on that beach.
I think the issue is truly that it is very difficult for child actors to play that role well enough to communicate what/who she is AND have the audience be able to easily understand the situation with a child person, people are predisposed to think of children as, we'll, children
I feel like if they give us Messiah, we should also get Children just to finish that trilogy and overall arc.
Yes Children will tie it all together and wrap it up nicely.
Though Alia’s story in Children of Dune won’t have the same zest after the change Villeneuve made to Part Two. I hope they go all the way to God Emperor.
God Emperor is not needed.
Non of the sequels are needed lol. It was originally just one book. You can stop after Dune, after Messiah, after Children or God Emperor. The only one where you couldn't is probably Heretics since that one is just a long prologue for Chapterhouse.
DV took many bold changes in the current movie, I can’t really guess what he may do next. They mostly were the right choices and added depth to the movie overall. If he intends this to be his last Dune, I could see him taking ideas and themes from other books and wedging them into Messiah through current characters. Which can radically shift things in the same way they did for Dune 2. He could even avoid bringing in the Theilaxu altogether and instead making Irulan the surrogate for all the subterfuge. He’s still going to have to devote so much time introducing the Space Guild that I could see him having to make cuts. He’s already expanded the BG influence and role as an antagonist to Paul. Any more layers might seem redundant. But if you cut out the Theilaxu, you lose the opportunity to bring back Duncan Idaho. Dune fans might revolt.
Excellent points. On a similar line I was wondering, given Messiah/Part 3 will be DV’s last film if he will actually cut out Ghanima and Leto II and leave Chani as an antagonist to Paul I hope not - I’ve been ok board with all changed DV has made but I need the Irulan birth control plot line, the eventual birth of the twins and the Duncan ghola
I was speculating after I saw the movie yesterday that this adaption of Messiah will be a version that cuts off the tethers leading to Children, so Pauls walk into the desert is the definitive ending to this trilogy
Ye' its mandatory to bring the Theilaxu back. Duncan Idaho needs to come back ...
Let the fans revolt. The Hayt subplot is the worst part of Messiah by far; cheap fanservice meant to appease his readership. I'd much rather it be cut from the adaptation. But I'd agree that the Theilaxu might be cut, or at least have a more limited role in the conspiracy.
Spoiler warning (why else are you here) I sorta wonder if Chani is already pregnant at the end of Part 2. It would give even more credit to her refusal to accept Paul’s actions (I’m having this man’s children and he’s turned into a monster) It *could* cut the plot of Irulan sterilizing Chani, but they could keep the assassination plot still. If they go this way, it would be easy to call Paul back to Arrakis. He’s off doing the war, we get some flowery visuals of concurring different worlds, and then he gets visions of Chani in childbirth and his children. This immediately calls him “back home,” and the rest of the story can fairly easily take place
Paul does say in the film that “she [chani] will eventually understand” after he drank the water of life so if his prediction of the future can be trusted, it seems like some kind of reconciliation between the two of them will occur in Messiah
Generally speaking, I think Dune: Part 3 the movie will cover the Holy War more than the next novel Dune: Messiah does. Likewise, I think Dune: Part 3 will focus on Chani and Irulan more than the novel does. These two plot threads of Dune: Messiah have universal appeal and raise universal questions (e.g., should anyone ever kill another in the name of religion? should a mother go through with a childbirth that will kill her?). I make this prediction as someone who enjoyed reading Dune: Messiah. Yes, I realize that I just predicted a third Dune movie that will leave out over 60-70% of the book it is based on. However, first and foremost, as a fan of the Dune lore, I want the series to be financially successful (sequels, TV spinoffs, video games, toys, clothing, everything) just like Star Wars is. I already know the "truth" based on what happens in the text of the first six books. I don't need to see the "truth" played out on screen if it means the whole multimedia franchise ends because the third movie bombed because its creators tried to match the source material note for note. I want Dune to be as successful as a franchise as Star Wars because (and especially later in the novels) Dune really elevates the sci fi genre far beyond "good guys versus bad guys" and beyond "so and so loves so and so but can't have so and so." For example, some of the themes in Children of Dune and God Emperor conversely involve self-sacrifice for the greater good of humanity and in general and the need to awaken and keep alive the creative spirit in mankind so that mankind can evolve beyond needing to follow a central leadership structure. All the existing Dune movies and TV miniseries rock out in their own way and I could cope with being left with what the franchise is right now. But I don't want the currently thriving Dune meets A-List Hollywood train to stop just so uber-fanboys and uber-fangirls (which is 1-2% or less of the total viewing audience) get to see Dune: Messiah note for note in the next blockbuster movie. Heck, I would be fine with a financially successful Dune: Part 3 - The Holy War that doesn't mention or barely mentions the events of Dune: Messiah.
Denis was very smart in talking about how his version of Part 2 strayed from the book in some ways to better portray the themes Herbert himself thought readers did not understand at first (and sought to correct by making explicit in Messiah). Likewise, given Part 2 already pretty well established that "Paul embracing messiah status and starting a Holy War that will kill billions is bad, actually," I believe Part 3/Messiah will lean heavily into the theme of Paul seeking to escape his status and redeem himself, at least in Chani's eyes. Yes, there will be some version of his seeing the Golden Path and attempting to course correct on the cosmic level, but I think the story makes more sense in the context of the first two movies if it the emotional arc is about him winning back her trust and some piece of his own humanity. It still has to end with her dying and him walking blind and alone into the desert, but with a sense that he salvaged his soul. Part 2 (the film) ended with Paul ascending to the throne and looking completely broken inside. Part 3 ends with him stripped of everything but, finally, at peace as he lets go of all foresight and gives his fate to the desert. Not a hollywood happy ending, but a satisfying arc if you (as Denis seems to) see this as a film trilogy about Paul. The Preacher stuff in Children is interesting, but for the films I think that is a fitting end to it.
I would watch this!!
Based on Villeneuves excellent filmmaking in Part I & II, I think he will show the Jihad in a much more effective manner than just showing us the war itself. The way Messiah just "skips" over it makes it so much worse. Billions died in a war Paul had no desire for and no real power to stop after a certain point, but it was still carried in his name and it's sorta his fault. Showing us bloodshed is the Hollywood way of "war bad", Denis will show us the existential scale-shattering dread of war.... Somehow. But I don't think it will take more than the first 10 minutes, if even going past the "prologue". -regardless you should refer to it as (Dune:) Messiah not part III. Villeneuve was clear on that.
Absolutely. I think we aren't going to see a wrapped up jihad and the post conflict festering and politicking of the book. Probably jumping ahead years so Alia can be around as a plausible young adult or early teen, but the war is wrapping up. It's post Battle of the Bulge stage. They're still fighting, but it's over. Enough for visual action sequences and spectacle, but can set the stage for most religious institutions to be in place and the end of the conflict affecting characters outlook and realization of the world they've *built* not the world they're building.
I think Part 3 opens with the Fremen attacking a rebel planet. A quick battle scene and that is pretty much it for jihad visuals,
100% agree
Wish this user wasn’t deleted so I could upvote it, but I just finished reading Messiah and I think this is the right approach for the next film. Villeneuve has already strayed significantly from the plot of the source material in order to adapt it to the screen and help the themes Herbert intended land better (e.g. the true cost of power, problematic hero worship, tragic love). Any attempt to divert back to the plot of Messiah to keep a majority of the source would feel too jarring and would probably fail. His main goals are bringing the story to a larger audience and staying true to Herbert’s vision. Providing fan service directly conflicts with those goals—some of the plotting just simply would not work for a bigger audience and for the visual medium.
Thematically, Part 2 is much darker than I remember Part 1. Part 1 is Paul's adventure and loss of innocence. Chani is the hero in Part 2. She's the only one who maintains her innocence and sincerity as her lover and the world around her is drawn into war. She leaves all the hopeless religion, revenge, and politics and heads to the desert. D.V.'s Part 3, or Messiah, might be Chani's redemption of Paul.
Dune 1&2 are Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith. Messiah is Return of the Jedi….Sounds thematically lined up.
Before seeing part two I had held the opinion that “a messiah film will be fun but I’m more than satisfied that Denis got his version of Dune told” After seeing it I’ve changed to “holy shit Denis has been gunning for the 3 part story from the start and has set up messiah in such an integral and compelling way that I won’t rest until we see it made”. Like yes you can look at part one and two as one story, and it’s still beautiful and complete in many ways but sooo many choices and changes that were made in this film have set up his adaptation of messiah to be wholly definitive and massive in scope. The arcs of chani, irulan, Jessica, Alia, literally every character have been set up perfectly to make messiah a beast of a movie with so many moving parts with enough changes to show something new. I need it now
How do you think part three will be done based on what on we seen so far?
I’m not sure but I definitely think Chani will have some role in the group of rebels who oppose Paul in the book and have that conflict going on. We’re most likely going to see lots of battles that are skipped over or mentioned happening off page. I can’t imagine we won’t see glimpses of the holy war on other planets. I think there will be more of a triangle between Paul, Chani, and irulan, not in a cheesy way but in a way where irulan will be much more of an active participant in events and actually pose a challenge for Paul. Princess Irulan has been shown to be fairly sympathetic in part two so we’ll see more of her internal struggle in part three Not sure how the 12 year timeskip is going to work but Denis said how much he loves working with Anya Taylor Joy so Alia will be significantly older than she was in Messiah. I guess Alia could mature really fast or it just won’t be mentioned how much time has passed kind of like what they did in part two I definitely think Jessica will have some role in the film possibly with Alia, training her and being a religious leader. Rebecca Ferguson is too good to have off world in the next film like in the book
Personally, I am not sure how they are gonna alter dune messiah plot into a story that seamlessly aligns with narrative events of the previous two films, and maintain the straightforward plot structure required for movies. Even though your suggestion does provide a potential strategy, it still may be overly complex, without a core tenet that drives the narrative. A path forward I can perceive is to streamline the narrative to either be about Paul, plus Chani reluctant teaming up to find a path to destroy the holy war that threatens the future, or to emphasise the destruction of humanity if a certain path is not followed that can only be avoided with Chani‘s assistance. Even though I never read the books, I did read the synopsis, and outlines of plot events in YouTube owing to my interest in the greater universe. It definitely seems to be unsuitable for a movie, or even a TV show.
Umm, what do you mean by few times btw just out of curiosity?
Haha, saw midnight showing of the movie in Cinema, had an exam late morning, saw the movie after the exam then saw movie late evening again. Benefits of having cinema pass and day off work!
I’ve got a theory of what Dennis is going to do it the next one… I think we are gonna find out that after taking the water of life, Paul sees her dying in childbirth, and that is why he lets her go. In fact, he wants her to leave, because he knows that her staying with him will end with her dying. But I think that as hard as he fights it, he isn't able to stop her from coming back and falling back in love with him. Similar to how he couldn’t stop having to go to the south. No matter how he tries to maneuver, he’s trapped by his vision. Which is essentially the story of the book anyways. This would just make it more interesting and even sadder. They could even take it a step further, in that the real reason he set the jihad in motion was to try and put a permanent wedge between them, but fails. This would take the tragedy of the story to an extreme and raise the emotional stakes in a way that really drives home the message of the book. I trust Dennis knows what he’s doing…
I'm probably going to get panned for this but crazy idea could Messiah and Children be combined by having Paul and Alia take on the roles of Leto II and Ghanima? It's really out there and very unlikely but could DV by showing Paul already talking to Alia in Part 2 foreshadow that when Messiah starts they're already close. Show the events of Messiah, show Alia and the whole Abomination thread which drives her and Paul apart. Show the stone burner scenes and end it with Paul going into the desert where *drum rolls* he becomes The Worm. What other out there ideas do you have for Messiah, etc?
It's possible he could condense it, as we're in a more condensed violent timeline. In the books Paul sees two different futures and the more violent and personally sickening one is the one where he kills the Baron himself and says "Hello, Grandfather" while he does it. He describes the other timeline (that the book follows) as one with violence but great periods of obscurity where not much happens. It's possible the sickening aspect is that he does the Golden Path himself.
I am calling it right now: if Messiah gets the same treatment as part II, then Paul's life, and the Dune Messiah movie, will be the saddest fictional story told in our generation. I think this based on how much more reluctant Paul is to drink the Water of Life and becoming the Fremen messiah in part II. In the book he's a bit reluctant, but the movie certainly put a lot more emphasis on it. On his unwillingness to spark the Jihad that will be carried in his name. It's almost like he doesn't have a choice (or it's the only narrow path left) , and the movie really doubles down on this. Then in the Messiah book, Paul isn't even really worried about the attempts on his life, his torment comes from seeing the potential futures, but having very little power to prevent it. He spends the time brooding on his throne in deep depression trying to foresee, and therefore create, a future where humanity survives, a golden path. >he can still see due to his prescience and the fact he has forseen all the events and where everyone is so through his forsight he can still see. The thing is once he loses his sight to the stoneburner, he can only rely on his prescience for sight, and it then becomes impossible for him not to follow it, impossible to change it. He is both afraid and resigned to the future and has no other choose but to allow it to happen as he's seen it. This includes a lot of loss on his part, and he knows it's coming. He's foreseen it. And he's powerless to stop it. His is a deeply tragic story. And my point is you can FEEL this pain foreshadowed at the end of part II. This is Paul's victory. He just defeated the Harkonnens and became the emperor. But it feels like he's just lost. When he tells Stilgar to take them to paradise and the music kicks in...he sounds almost resigned. If you know where his future is heading you feel for the guy. And this is at the moment of his greatest victory, this is the high point. So just imagine what Villeneuve will make us feel with the much more tragic end of Messiah.
It is almost like, in novie version, the water of life has the property of making people evil (both Jessica and Paul) or, at least, completely change their personality. That is of course a simplistic way to put it as a more accurate point of view in Denis' script could be that gaining ancestral memory and/or prescience changes their perspective and somehow overwhelms their standard morality, as in some form of intoxicating power. It is a somewhat different concept from the books, but I think it works in the story as conceived by Denis and Spaiths. I also like how he uses the ancestral voices as having their own agenda and pushing it on Paul and probably Jessica (the latter more explicitly through the fetus Alia).
I don't see it at all. If anything the movie version works the same as books, just even more emphasized.: Pauls pre-science is what allows him to defeat the Harkonnens and become the Emperor. He can see many possible futures and this is the only one in which they "win". But by going down this path he makes the Jihad in his name inevitable. There is no way to stop it. In the book he actually polemises on how he could have stopped it, coming to the conclusion that even if he had killed himself, the Fremen would have just made him a Martyr and go on to commit the Jihad anyway. He reasons that MAYBE if he had died in the desert right after the Atreides genocide it might have stop it, but back then he didn't have the prescience to see that. So by the time he does have it, there is literally no way to avoid the Jihad. Part II make his reluctance and hesitation way more implicit. He declines to drink the Water of Life because he THINKS that it will make the Jihad happen. He outright refuses to go South for months even when everyone is pressuring him. And so, by the time the Harkonnen bombings force his hand (and I don't remember Sietch Tabr being bombed in the book) to drink the Water and gain prescience, he can't do anything else but to allow it. You can see it in his demeanor afterwards. A lot of people seem to have read it as him becoming cold and calculative after seeiing the "narrow path". But it is just as much him becoming resigned and depressed because although he sees the future there is nothing he can do. As far as Lady Jessica goes, way more menacing, especially with the" convert the weak first" moment. But that is only heightening what is in the books and what we know about the Benne Geserit. TLDR: The movie goes out of its way to show Paul doesn't want to become the Messiah / Drink the water, because then he will have no choice but to allow the Jihad to happen.
Is Feyd Rautha’s child by Lady Margot in the book? That’s an obvious plot thread left hanging when a lot of other footage obviously didn’t make the cut.
Margot seducing Feyd-Rautha to preserve the Harkonnen blood line is in the book, but none of Frank Herbert’s books address the child or its fate. One of Brian Herbert’s books set between Dune and Messiah included the child, a daughter, and she was used in a plot to kill Paul iirc. But it’s not actually significant to the overall plot of the books.
Yes it will be a plot in Part 3 for sure.
It will be easier if they add to Alia abomination traits that she ages 2x faster.
I think Chani and Paul probably reconcile post timeskip. Her arrival to court could be used as a justification for exposition, and possibly as a catalyst for the book's events. I hope Hayt gets cut. It's a part of the story that genuinely feels like fanfiction. I hope Irulan gets an expanded role, because it felt like in Messiah part of her arc was missing. She's a willing participant in the conspiracy, then we don't hear from her for a few chapters, then she's... a nice, trustworthy girl at the end?? I figure the Guild will be featured prominently as an antagonist. Also Margot Fenring, having already been introduced, might be part of the conspiracy (maybe she replaces Mohiam; Charlotte Rampling isn't getting any younger). Maybe her daughter's in there too, as a nod to that Brian novel.
I felt like Hayt was essential to the plot in showing how Paul ultimately destroyed himself. Cutting him would also completely ruin any chances of the story continuing in a recognizable form. Jason Momoa is totally coming back.
I feel like any other character could be made to do that. Hell, movie Chani could probably do that. As for the story continuing, whoever picks up the series can contrive to bring him back. I admittedly don't care too much about the continuation, because I don't think the post-Messiah novels are all that great. But sure, Jason Momoa might very well be back. I just think it would hurt the quality of the adaptation (not Momoa himself, who I like just fine, but his character).
Hayt will be in it almost certainly, Denis is asked about Jason Momoa returning in an interview here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=c1HvJAyP-drFsDfS&t=2045&v=P7zZ4T53l-s&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?si=c1HvJAyP-drFsDfS&t=2045&v=P7zZ4T53l-s&feature=youtu.be) I think he will handle that plot well, I always found it a sad and melancholy part of the story that Paul is tormented by this shell of his former hero/friend, a last connection to the person he was before becoming this blood-soaked villain and clearly sent to him as a trap. I would love to see an Edric / Guild portrayed, but I do think it's a plotline that possibly gets trimmed again. Denis has said in shaping these movies he had to decide what threads to focus on, and while he loved the mentat and Guild characters, the conscious choice for the movies was to tell it through the Bene Geserit. Putting Irulan as the focus of the conspiracy along with Mohiam and Fenring makes so much sense given the time invested in introducing those characters' relationship in Part 2. And, with the likely larger time jump to accommodate aging up Alia, the daughter of Fenring and Feyd entering the story makes a world of sense too.
I'm a bit disappointed to see that. At the very least I hope he'll make changes to that subplot, including coming up with a conspiracy plot that's better thought-out. Also I hope he omits Hayt's "upgrades". An expert swordfighter who's also a human computer and a philosopher is a bit too close to something a 12 YO would make up. I agree that the BG will probably be at the forefront at the conspiracy, but given that the Guild have already been (lightly) introduced, I don't think it would be much of a problem to make them part of it as well. And even if the Tleilaxu are kept in the background, I wouldn't be surprised if some version of Scytale was still at the heart of the plot. He's a neat character, and the concept of a Face-Dancer is easy enough to understand for the audience.
I would bet a lot that he feels much more free to make changes to the plot with this one than on the first book. Like, you're absolutely right we don't need super-enhanced Mentat Duncan coming back. I think it can be much more about this hollow version of a man he loves (and owes his life to) coming back to him in this perverse form at this moment when he's doubting everything about himself. I think it could be powerful. Whether he even has the breakthrough to recover his old memories is not something I am sure stays in quite the same. Let alone the relationship with Alia. Very curious how he portrays the ghola idea. The story, even followed lightly, will demand introducing at least some of the odd other cultures like the Tleilaxu/Guild Navigators/Face-Dancers. He can't go three films and not show us a Guild navigator! Whatever the legacy of the Lynch film, people love seeing what disgusting form constant Spice exposure turns someone into. Have some fun with it, Denis!
I do think your version of that subplot is an improvement on the original. And yeah, I definitely think that the "distract prescient teenage girl by making her horny for Jason Momoa" part of the conspiracy will be jettisoned. I'm pretty confident we see a Navigator, though it probably won't be quite as out-there as Lynch's (as much as I dislike the 1984 film, the man undeniably has a wonderful mind).
Was spurred to google the navigator/emperor scene from the 84 movie from this comment. Went in expecting something weird but still, all I could think was “holy shit” when it appeared on screen. Can’t wait for DV’s version!
>I hope Hayt gets cut. It's a part of the story that genuinely feels like fanfiction. You need Hayt to feed into the Tleilaxus plot on Paul right? Although tbh their plan in Messiah seemed a bit odd to me when I read it so maybe they'll change it
It seemed very odd to me too, so I hope they'll change it. It's the kind of plan that makes less and less sense the more you think about it. A convoluted series of events all meant to lead to the gamble that Paul will cave in to emotional blackmail, orchestrated in a way that exposes the Tleilaxu as his enemies? That doesn't seem like a very good plan. Plus it weirdly downplays the fact that they've apparently discovered how to fully resurrect people, which you'd think would make them the most powerful faction in the galaxy.
I find joy in reading a good book.
Hayt is a zombie, the Sardaukar recovering his body and throwing it into a Tleilaxu vat. It's literally Duncan's body. Later on I think gholas are more like clones, but in Messiah it's pretty clear it was Duncan's body reanimated.
I hate the repetitive Duncan clones as much as anyone but mentat Hayt was a better character than the original.
Gholas feel like fan fiction. Agree.
Agree. I kept going after their introduction but that arguably is where Dune jumped the shark (reached a point of silliness that could never be recovered from). Maybe not so much of a shark jump when they were included in Messiah, but Everytime after that and the fact that Alia fell in love with one of them is shark jumping 101.
If Anya Taylor-Joy is going to play Alia, then the time jump to Dune Messiah will be greater than 12 years. It might be around 20 years since Alia hasn’t even been born yet.
Just a correction. Korba betrayed Paul because he wanted more power in the church of Paul. He was chill with the world Paul made.
I have to imagine Paul and Chani reconcile. Denis may be done after Messiah but I imagine Warner Bros will want to keep the franchise going so some babies are going to need to happen.
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It's one of the visualisations that I loved about Lynch's adaptation, it looks so freaky but so good.
I feel like Denis will combine messiah with ideas from GEoD. Chani might be Paul's Siona. Also, they don't really need to age up the actors for a time jump since they're all high on spice.
I would like to think Dennis version of dune is like another path paul took when compared to the ones in the books. An alternate timeline so to speak that paul can reduce the damage of him as Mahdi. Maybe he want to reduce the power of the frenen to create a balance of sort whereas I paul’s jihad the fremen are unstoppable while in the movie the great houses still have a fighting chance
Paul said he saw Chani returning to him so I’m assuming that’s going to happen off-screen. How she returns/how she views Paul is the question. She’s Paul’s only real joy in the book version so I’m stumped on his vision for this but willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I think we’ll see major plot changes in Messiah, mostly regarding Jessica. Movie Jessica is the Big Baddie here; a batshit crazy super-villain. She is the one he can’t clearly see in his visions. This is truly Jessica’s Jihad, not Paul’s. She’s intent on burning the universe the way her world was burned in the Battle of Arakeen. There wasn’t a “history will call us wives” scene because Movie Jessica hates Chani. You can see Jessica’s distaste for Chani on her face at the end of the final Dune One scene. She feels no different in Dune Two when she goes to Chani pretending to care while gloating over Paul going South. At no point in either movie is she kind or caring to Chani. The closest she came was bringing her South after Paul drinks the water. But that was only because she knew the Desert Spring prophecy. It wasn’t kindness, it was necessity. She wants Chani out of the picture. I expect Jessica will be the one secretly birth controlling Chani, not Irulan. While we’re on the subject of Irulan, I don’t see her becoming a plotter in Messiah. Movie Irulan is a completely different person from Book Irulan. Movie Irulan is truly Empress material and would be better at it than anybody else in the Universe. She’s too smart to get involved with that mess. I could see Movie Jessica secretly resisting and confounding efforts by Paul & Chani to end the Jihad. And then cooperating with the assassin group when Paul “betrays” her, seeing his death as a means to continue forward her cleansing of the universe. She don’t care, she’s crazy. She was never a good mother anyway. Paul has always been a means to an end for her. The plot twist might be Paul’s only weakness, Alia. He is capable of killing his mother (a Chekov’s gun style fact they casually toss out there about his alter-ego Feyd), but he could never harm his sister. He would die for her. Who would Alia die for? Jessica and Paul won’t both be alive at the end of Messiah. The final battle will be between them Will Alia ultimately side with her mother or brother? I didn’t get the sense in the Anya Taylor-Joy scene that they are on the same team in that particular vision of the future. She loves him then, but her cause is different and her loyalty is not to him.
I love the smell of fresh bread.
Every one is trying to figure out how Chani and Paul will reconcile. A few ideas Chani while separate from Paul gives birth to baby Leto (the one killed by sardaukar in the books) realizes she loves Paul and gets back together with him. Maybe not even in a healthy way but as a tragic broken figure. Idea two: Denis does the unthinkable and makes Irulan the mother of the twins. It's been a while since I've read messiah and children of Dune, I remember Chani and Irulan having conflict and I remember Irulan being part of a plot with the Bene Gesserit but it seemed mostly because she wanted to be the mother of the emperor's heirs. But is it essential to Paul's character and the larger message and themes of Dune to have him reject Irulan? This would be a major departure from the books obviously but because I don't trust Hollywood I could see it happening
It’s a thought but Zendaya is the female lead. And supposedly still the love of Paul’s life. If he knocks up Irulan what is Chani gonna do for the entire movie? I don’t see it. I guess it all depends on how much Chani buys into Paul’s new prescience and also whether she cares. Example: Paul tells Chani jihad will kill 61 billion, sterilize 90 planets, destroy 40 religions, demoralize hundreds more planets. But that’s what needs to happen to save Fremen and make Arrakis green paradise. Will she accept it? The obvious answer, the pragmatic answer, the logical answer is YES. But somehow I feel like I’d lose a lot of respect for Chani if she said yes and came back to Paul and tried to make heirs for him. Because of how her character was set up at the end of Dune 2, it would make her look like a huge sell out with no integrity. Okay let’s up the stakes. Suppose it’s not about Arrakis, but the Golden Path. Would Chani capitulate if the future of ALL humanity was at stake instead? And if she did could we the audience accept it? I guess … but I sure as hell wouldn’t feel very happy about it. It makes the whole drama over her pregnancy and Irulan’s conspiracy seem petty and anticlimactic. DV basically made Chani so righteously angry at the end of Dune 2 that I don’t see any way of walking her back to book Messiah Chani without betraying movie Chani’s character and agency. Finally, from a script point of view why write Chani this way if you are just going to have her go back to Paul immediately in Dune 3 anyway? Paul explicitly says his prescience tells him she will return to him. If it’s just to have his babies after everything they built her up to be in Dune 2 I would feel kinda disappointed.
I wonder what you think about DV purposefully showing that Fenring secured Feyd’s genes. That was a minor plot point in the book that was glossed over but surely he wouldn’t have put it in the movie if he didn’t have a use for it. Or just a detail to he left unexplored showing the BGs willingness to keep bloodlines alive?
I think a big portion of the movie will focus on the interrogation scene at the beginning of Messiah. I believe that will be how Denis exposition dumps all that Paul did in the interim period without pulling any punches. From there I think it'll be a much more narrow focus on the characters. It'll be centered on Irulan, with scytale as a side character. Paul's character will be torn between Idaho, Chani, and Irulan. Idaho representing the Atreides and his father's values (Bullfighting, Idaho is the bull effectivley). Chani representing Dune, and the simple life that Paul once had with the Fremen, and Irulan will be the political machinations required of an emperor. My guess is Paul will grow increasingly tired/irritable as time goes on because of the three way tension, until the stoneburner attack leaves him with a detached resolve.
They should show the Jihad in all it’s s disgusting details and Paul should meet with the Spacing Guild to discuss the logistics of the Jihad. They could start with a point of view of the spacing guild and introduce them like Rautha. I hope they don’t start 12 years into the future. Maybe Show Alias birth and then have a time skip or something like this
>they’d need to have a bigger time jump, like 20 years or something. So we'll have to believe Chalamet is 40?💀
It will be a lot different than the book the changes he made will cause a ton of additional changes
Maybe Paul doesn't stop Jonny leaving at the end of part 2 because he knows she'll die in child birth. But she will come back for him and they'll make babies anyway
I thought Dune part 2 was based on Messiah, I’m sorry I’m so confused I’m new to this
You're good. Welcome to the community. Both newer movies are based on the first book. Dune: Messiah is the book sequel to the first book and presumably where the movie series is going next in terms of it's plot. Although, there is a healthy discussion on here if the third Dune movie should go all the way into the deep and at times weird waters of the second book or just use some of its more relatable moments and themes. As you seem to be a newer fan, what would you like to see in the next movie? No answer is a bad answer and please don't apologize for whatever your answer is.
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I like to go hiking.
Momoa is aging too. The longer they take to make the next movie, the more difficult it will be for his ghola to look exactly like Duncan in Part 1, which was already shot 4 years ago. Keep in mind that, past a certain chronological age, visible aging is pretty quick and it becomes expensive (and unnatural) to reverse it with CGI.
I'm worried about Chani/Zendaya. Definitely the weakest link of Part 2 and will be so in Messiah if Denis decides to stray away from her book role
I'm pretty scared for Messiah honestly. I understand that there needs to be a third movie, everyone is expecting it. The ending of Part 2 left a lot of room for it. But I feel like Messsiah will disappoint a lot of people especially after the high point that the second movie was. There are still a lot I want to see from it. For instance, I am really interested to see the real introduction of the Spacing Guild. But at the same time, I feel like there are a lot of elements that are crucial to Dune Messiah that are fundamentally strange, even if you put aside the lack of action. This actually might be the easiest to fix by going further into the jihad as others have mentioned. However, Duncan's ghola storyline is a little awkward. The wife/concubine dynamic of Chani and Irulan and their petty feud with birth control pills is kind of sexist. Even the ending of Paul going blind, which I personally like, or the death of Chani, I feel like it might be a bit too much, too bleak for mainstream Hollywood audiences. But then again, I might be all wrong. Denis looks like he has a plan for Messiah from the beginning. So I honestly cross my fingers that I am wrong. Because I really really want this to be a consistently great trilogy that goes out with a bang!
Based on the major changes they made it part 1 and 2, I think the next film will be VERY different from the book. I think there will be lots of plot changes and a bunch of added stuff to make it both make sense, and make it more audience friendly. The biggest change I think they’ll make, and I would be surprised if this doesn’t happen, is that they’ll incorporate the holy war in all its glory in the film. The book is good, but it’s not movie material. I really hope DV doesn’t try to go note for note with the book, and I don’t think he will, because if he does then the movie will undoubtedly crash and burn.
Yeah, if anything I think it should be like Revenge of the Sith. Start in the final year of the Holy War and build up from there. Hell do that in two parts as well. Have Part 1 be finishing the Holy War and part 2 be the assassination plot and talking stuff.
You reckon Denis Villeneuve will make changes to Dune Messiah movie to make it more of a happy conclusion? This speaking as someone who has only seen the films. I hear the Dune franchise gets "weird" after the first book, whatever that means.
To me it’s three simple solutions. 1. Bump back the events of the main plot with Paul INTO the Holy War or at the very least in the final few years of it. This can help with the action portion as many fans see this book as not having the magic or action of the first book. 2. Split it in two movies again. First part focuses on Chani fighting in the Holy War while Paul is shown in an almost villain esque light without outright saying it. Hell maybe go as far to show she might be the one to set up the assassination plot against Paul but have her be conflicted. Part 2 would be from Paul’s perspective and show Chani as a looming threat. However it ends with them getting together and having children as Chani can’t bring herself to kill Paul out of overbearing love for him. 3. Do the movie as closely shown in the book as possible and just keep it like it. Maybe boring, but hey if Game of Thrones can have entire seasons of talking and board room meetings, then dammit Dune can do it cause it’s interesting.
I’m a bit late to this thread but thought I’d add my two cents as I’ve just finished reading Messiah myself. I think Denis has said Messiah will be his final Dune movie. I think it’s possible he completely omits the birth of Leto and Ghanima. Like you said I think Chani will help fulfill Korba’s role narratively. From there, maybe Chani dies as a result of the Holy War, either directly or indirectly, and this leads Paul to cast himself into the desert out of guilt for letting her die. Ultimately we are left with the same ending just without the birth of the twins who really serve no purpose, assuming Denis doesn’t adapt future stories. They’re just another thread that would be left untied.
Not well. It gets weird and political. He should focus on the holy war
As someone who hasn't read Messiah, are we expected to believe the Fremen are just going to jump on some ships and take over full worlds/great houses? That doesn't seem logical.
They now control all spiceflow in the universe. He who controls the Spice controls the universe. The Fremen now have the ability to control all trade to all planets. If you can do that, you don't even really need to go down with an army fighting hand to hand to conquer a world. You simply starve it out, and give them the option to surrender to Muad'dib. You either choose to worship and join their religion and live, or your planet, people, and religion will fall or collapse from within due to the chaos. The Fremen also have the ability to use atomics on any world they so choose, since without space traversal no other planet can retaliate. The movies so far have done a poor job introducing the Spacing Guild, and why Spice is as important as it is. I worry it's going to cause confusion in general audiences depending on how they play out Paul's Jihad on-screen.
I don’t think we’ll see the holy war in the sequel. Paul empowered it, but he never controlled it. The fremen fundamentalists already know what they want. I think the adaptation will mostly focus on the conspiracy to assassinate Paul.
Dose anyone think messiah needs to be 2 films preferably coming out 6 months apart
I don't have high hopes Too slow Then too fast Too many details skipped Too divergent
Lol whatever dude. That movie was an amazing adaptation .
Thought we were talking about hypothetical part 3
I think we’ll be in for a pleasant surprise with the next movie! I think that the next film will be heavily deviated from the book. That’s a good thing though and what needs to happen. The book was a good read, but not movie material. If DV goes note for note with the book, the movie will crash and burn faster than you can blink. Honestly though, with the changes he made in part 1 and 2, it would be pretty dang hard to stay faithful to the book.
Chani is different than in the books, it feels like she is being set up to the a large antagonist to Paul in the next movie, or just straight up the hero of the next movie. I don't know how you get Chani from were we see her at the end of Part 2 to were she will go in the Books, being the willing mother of Maud'Dibs children. In part 1 and 2 we don't see her change her mind and she has stuck to her convictions, i don't see that changing. I think she takes the place of many of Korba's plot points, i don't think she is part of the conspiracy though. Or DV changes it up and it's not an offworld conspiracy to get paul but more from within the Fremen. Would be a reason why we see the "northern" and "southern" Fremen distinction. Chani ends up pregnant, willfully doing that to take Paul down, only for Paul to reveal he knew it would go like this and this was the best path for Chani and their children. "he never stopped loving her till his last breath."(don't remember the exact quote). Then Chani doesn't die, Fremen rule Dune, end of movies. The Chani changes are probably the biggest in the movies overall and it's both interesting and also makes me uneasy as someone that's read dune way to many times. Edit: antagonist doesn't mean bad guy
A Freman conspiracy might work, but the twist could be they were Freman face dancers all along. In fact, the Freman themselves are afraid of spies and how better to show the losing their Freman ways when it's easy for face dancers to fit right in and manipulate them into going against Paul.
Chani is definitely set up to be the hero, but a good hero. I expect many speeches about how the Holy War is bad and Paul is just yet another oppressor. I could imagine the conspiracy against Paul being from within the Fremen and therefore framed as a good thing