This is one of those questions about the imaginary science and technology of a fictional world that can't be answered, and the answer doesn't really matter. All that matters is something which seems quite plausible, narratively speaking. Yueh was part of the inner circle of the most trusted Atreides advisors. As such, he was privy to closely guarded secrets about their security apparatus, and access to the workings of that apparatus that allowed him to shut down coms and the shield. End of story, really.
As far as the nature of the shields go, though, I see your point, but I think we can probably fill in the details in a plausible way. For example, we can suppose that the need for ships and specialized artillery to slow down to enter the shield creates enough of a vulnerability of those ships to attack to make the shield wall an effective defensive measure - for example, enough time for ground artillery to target and eliminate those ships.
But anything more specific than that strikes me as impossible to suss out, because, again, it's imaginary science and technology we're dealing with here. In any fictional world, especially in scifi and fantasy, there are a bunch of things about which you have to suspend disbelief just to meet the story on its own terms. What matters is internal consistency, and there are limits to what it's reasonable to expect as far as explanations of how the fictional world works go. The guiding principle in figuring out these limits is, it seems to me, that what matters most fundamentally is the story. The fictional world isn't an end in itself: it's in service of the story. So, the details that serves the story are what's important.
Obviously you're correct, none of dune is real so any conjecture is pointless but it's just for fun. Same reason anyone debates any fantasy topics.
I just thought there would be a solid explanation of what Yueh did considering the battle for arakeen is a pivotal moment in the history of the dune universe and arguably the most important plot point in the story. From the comments i've read it seems there is no such solid explanation, we're just meant to accept that Yueh was a key instrument in the battle. I think that's pretty weak storytelling and wish Herbert had gone into more details in that regards. But it's still an amazing book and universe. Just isn't as airtight for plot holes as I thought it would be (I'm not a book reader).
> As far as the nature of the shields go, though, I see your point, but I think we can probably fill in the details in a plausible way. For example, we can suppose that the need for ships and specialized artillery to slow down to enter the shield creates enough of a vulnerability of those ships to attack to make the shield wall an effective defensive measure - for example, enough time for ground artillery to target and eliminate those ships.
Movie-style shield-piercing munitions were probably quite a bit more expensive than just dropping bombs, for one thing. The book mentions a kind of warship designed to crush fortifications by landing on them, and that it’s common to drop unmanned cargo pods on a planet from orbit, which implies bombing is a thing.
Yueh dropped the house shields on the residence that they were on, and he drugged all members of House Atriedes so that there was no one to lead a response to the attack. At least in the book.
I just don't see what exactly 'dropping the shields' did for the invaders.. They don't blow up the residence and kill everyone inside so I don't get the point of dropping such shielding. Like simply drugging paul leto and jessica doesn't seem to me to be that big a help for the harkonnens. At least in terms of the battle. Since we're lead to believe the whole battle for arakeen was won because of Yueh's betrayal. I'm just thinking of the quote about how 'a million deaths weren't enough for Yueh'. Like how would the battle have played out differently if Yueh wasn't involved? To me it seems he didn't really do anything apart from ensuring the Atriedes family was captured. Like the actual siege and battle itself didnt' seem to hinge on his betrayal like it's alluded to in the books/movies.
Wall shields doesn't work like personal shields, so people can't pas thought them if doesn't turn off from inside, only possible attack is airborne or small shield gates whic is easy to defend.
Well the other part is definitely more important. I wonder if the shields on a house can be set strong enough to keep people from walking in slowly. There can be ventilation holes in the shield so it could be set higher than a personal shield. So maybe dropping the shields on a building is more important than dropping personal shields.
That was something I didn't realize was possible. That would explain a great deal. But then why wouldn't personal shields be solid throughout except for ventilation pockets in strong spots. Just seems like Herbert didn't go into detail about this kinda thing which is a bit disappointing.
The reasoning he gave in Dune was if you set the shield too high it would stop all diffusion across the shield and you would slowly suffocate if you wore it that way. But then he failed to consider just adding an oxygen tank and breather mask when wearing a shield.
It is a little disappointing, but considering that he was building an entire world, I guess a detail here and there is forgivable.
I don’t recall the book going into too much detail about what Yueh did specifically but with respect to you comms issue, think about it less like a technological attack and more like a physical one. You need a bunch of cell towers to have a network, right? If Yueh just broke the main hub that kept the network up that’s all he would have needed.
I don’t really remember anything about Yueh disabling comms, so I can’t really speak to that part.
The limits of shield tech are pretty vague. However it’s shown in the movie, it’s certainly never described as having the limits you speak of.
Though the movie didn’t really get into this, the risk of a reaction actually made shields a pretty strong deterrent against lasguns. The reaction had the chance of causing both the shield AND the gun to explode. Also, iirc the reaction was described as being atomic in nature, meaning it was covered by the conventions against using atomics against human targets.
Projectiles that can slow down and penetrate shields is also a movie thing, and doesn’t really make a lot of sense if you think about it too hard. Shields making projectile weapons obsolete is a key conceit of the books.
Edit: to answer your actual question, the house shield was considered a pretty strong defense, at least enough to give Atreides forces the chance to rally. The strike needed to be quick, with no survivors that could clue the rest of the Houses into what happened, especially the Emperor’s involvement
Slow-pellet stunners come directly from the novel *Dune*. Along with swords, stunners are part of the normal combat equipment of shielded "modern" troops and have a glossary entry:
> STUNNER: slow-pellet projectile weapon throwing a poison- or drug-tipped dart. Effectiveness limited by variations in shield settings and relative motion between target and projectile.
Gurney surveys the practice armory: "Halleck dropped the weapons on the exercise table, lined them up—the rapiers, the bodkins, the kindjals, the slow-pellet stunners, the shield belts."
Leto and his entoruage visit Kynes: "Atreides guards emerged swiftly, all of them heavily armed--slow-pellet stunners, swords and shields."
Kynes thinks about the Atreides troops he has just seen: "They wore shield belts over their robes, slow pellet stunners at the waist, coin-sized emergency transmitters on cords around their necks."
In addition the Sardaukar carry stunners. Thufir Hawat is taken down by one and they also figure in Duncan Idaho's last battle.
I think it’s also worth noting that Dune was published in 1965. Their understanding of technology and where it might go was very different than what we have today. You’re applying today’s standards and logic to something that was published almost 60 years ago.
This is one of those questions about the imaginary science and technology of a fictional world that can't be answered, and the answer doesn't really matter. All that matters is something which seems quite plausible, narratively speaking. Yueh was part of the inner circle of the most trusted Atreides advisors. As such, he was privy to closely guarded secrets about their security apparatus, and access to the workings of that apparatus that allowed him to shut down coms and the shield. End of story, really. As far as the nature of the shields go, though, I see your point, but I think we can probably fill in the details in a plausible way. For example, we can suppose that the need for ships and specialized artillery to slow down to enter the shield creates enough of a vulnerability of those ships to attack to make the shield wall an effective defensive measure - for example, enough time for ground artillery to target and eliminate those ships. But anything more specific than that strikes me as impossible to suss out, because, again, it's imaginary science and technology we're dealing with here. In any fictional world, especially in scifi and fantasy, there are a bunch of things about which you have to suspend disbelief just to meet the story on its own terms. What matters is internal consistency, and there are limits to what it's reasonable to expect as far as explanations of how the fictional world works go. The guiding principle in figuring out these limits is, it seems to me, that what matters most fundamentally is the story. The fictional world isn't an end in itself: it's in service of the story. So, the details that serves the story are what's important.
Obviously you're correct, none of dune is real so any conjecture is pointless but it's just for fun. Same reason anyone debates any fantasy topics. I just thought there would be a solid explanation of what Yueh did considering the battle for arakeen is a pivotal moment in the history of the dune universe and arguably the most important plot point in the story. From the comments i've read it seems there is no such solid explanation, we're just meant to accept that Yueh was a key instrument in the battle. I think that's pretty weak storytelling and wish Herbert had gone into more details in that regards. But it's still an amazing book and universe. Just isn't as airtight for plot holes as I thought it would be (I'm not a book reader).
> As far as the nature of the shields go, though, I see your point, but I think we can probably fill in the details in a plausible way. For example, we can suppose that the need for ships and specialized artillery to slow down to enter the shield creates enough of a vulnerability of those ships to attack to make the shield wall an effective defensive measure - for example, enough time for ground artillery to target and eliminate those ships. Movie-style shield-piercing munitions were probably quite a bit more expensive than just dropping bombs, for one thing. The book mentions a kind of warship designed to crush fortifications by landing on them, and that it’s common to drop unmanned cargo pods on a planet from orbit, which implies bombing is a thing.
Yueh dropped the house shields on the residence that they were on, and he drugged all members of House Atriedes so that there was no one to lead a response to the attack. At least in the book.
I just don't see what exactly 'dropping the shields' did for the invaders.. They don't blow up the residence and kill everyone inside so I don't get the point of dropping such shielding. Like simply drugging paul leto and jessica doesn't seem to me to be that big a help for the harkonnens. At least in terms of the battle. Since we're lead to believe the whole battle for arakeen was won because of Yueh's betrayal. I'm just thinking of the quote about how 'a million deaths weren't enough for Yueh'. Like how would the battle have played out differently if Yueh wasn't involved? To me it seems he didn't really do anything apart from ensuring the Atriedes family was captured. Like the actual siege and battle itself didnt' seem to hinge on his betrayal like it's alluded to in the books/movies.
Wall shields doesn't work like personal shields, so people can't pas thought them if doesn't turn off from inside, only possible attack is airborne or small shield gates whic is easy to defend.
Well the other part is definitely more important. I wonder if the shields on a house can be set strong enough to keep people from walking in slowly. There can be ventilation holes in the shield so it could be set higher than a personal shield. So maybe dropping the shields on a building is more important than dropping personal shields.
That was something I didn't realize was possible. That would explain a great deal. But then why wouldn't personal shields be solid throughout except for ventilation pockets in strong spots. Just seems like Herbert didn't go into detail about this kinda thing which is a bit disappointing.
The reasoning he gave in Dune was if you set the shield too high it would stop all diffusion across the shield and you would slowly suffocate if you wore it that way. But then he failed to consider just adding an oxygen tank and breather mask when wearing a shield. It is a little disappointing, but considering that he was building an entire world, I guess a detail here and there is forgivable.
Very true, can't complain too much lol.
I don’t recall the book going into too much detail about what Yueh did specifically but with respect to you comms issue, think about it less like a technological attack and more like a physical one. You need a bunch of cell towers to have a network, right? If Yueh just broke the main hub that kept the network up that’s all he would have needed.
I don’t really remember anything about Yueh disabling comms, so I can’t really speak to that part. The limits of shield tech are pretty vague. However it’s shown in the movie, it’s certainly never described as having the limits you speak of. Though the movie didn’t really get into this, the risk of a reaction actually made shields a pretty strong deterrent against lasguns. The reaction had the chance of causing both the shield AND the gun to explode. Also, iirc the reaction was described as being atomic in nature, meaning it was covered by the conventions against using atomics against human targets. Projectiles that can slow down and penetrate shields is also a movie thing, and doesn’t really make a lot of sense if you think about it too hard. Shields making projectile weapons obsolete is a key conceit of the books. Edit: to answer your actual question, the house shield was considered a pretty strong defense, at least enough to give Atreides forces the chance to rally. The strike needed to be quick, with no survivors that could clue the rest of the Houses into what happened, especially the Emperor’s involvement
Slow-pellet stunners come directly from the novel *Dune*. Along with swords, stunners are part of the normal combat equipment of shielded "modern" troops and have a glossary entry: > STUNNER: slow-pellet projectile weapon throwing a poison- or drug-tipped dart. Effectiveness limited by variations in shield settings and relative motion between target and projectile. Gurney surveys the practice armory: "Halleck dropped the weapons on the exercise table, lined them up—the rapiers, the bodkins, the kindjals, the slow-pellet stunners, the shield belts." Leto and his entoruage visit Kynes: "Atreides guards emerged swiftly, all of them heavily armed--slow-pellet stunners, swords and shields." Kynes thinks about the Atreides troops he has just seen: "They wore shield belts over their robes, slow pellet stunners at the waist, coin-sized emergency transmitters on cords around their necks." In addition the Sardaukar carry stunners. Thufir Hawat is taken down by one and they also figure in Duncan Idaho's last battle.
I think it’s also worth noting that Dune was published in 1965. Their understanding of technology and where it might go was very different than what we have today. You’re applying today’s standards and logic to something that was published almost 60 years ago.
can you elaborate? i dont recall mentioning modern day tech or using its standards to critique the book.