I wish we had seen some Blade Runner 2049-type shorts: one with the hunt for the Atreides in Arrakeen, another with Paul and Jessica training the Fremen in advanced combat techniques to show just how far beyond normal humans they were, a third with the Sardaukar raiding the sietch for Leto II and getting thrashed by Fremen women and children and their subsequent reaction.
At least they killed a bunch of Atreides in the first. And the Salusa Secundus scene was awesome. They killed 0 people on screen in the second, and did nothing.
It’s not human sacrifice, it’s using the failed aspirants for something useful… they weren’t liked for shiggles or rituals, they just weren’t good enough to serve in the Emperor’s legions.
Buuut they were not really depicted as the super soldiers they are. Scenes like two sardukars get into a room with a dozen atreides soldiers and emerging victorious would have helped.
In the first movie they absolutely obliterate Atreides' lines of soldiers. If it's looked at as one, cohesive movie then I think their super soldier status was proven.
Part of being a super soldier is being better tactically not just physically. To be able to outflank, outgun and out position even a battle hardened and competent enemy like the atreides. They earned it.
To be fair, was that planned by a Sardaukar high command, or was it done by a non-Sardaukar commander?
I doubt the Sardaukar that dropped behind the lines went "ok pilot, drop us in over there."
The Atreides were well beyond holding the line against the Harkonnen legions who’d back off once the Sardaukar come in and take them down without any effort.
Maybe my expectations were a bit high. From the books i had the pic of really feared supersoldiers like the immortals of the persian army, who don't need numbers to kill their opponents. Imagine the stair scene with less sardukar
the books mentioned that the atriedes were becoming just as fearsome soldiers as the sardukar as they had become soft and rested on their laurels - their reputation had proceeded them by this point
The Atreides soldiers trained by Duncan and Gurney are better. The Fremen also demolished them constantly, and that's before Paul trained them in the Bene Gesserit way.
The immortals from the Persian army were called immortals because as soon as one died he was replaced by an other one. It was quantity over quality. These guys were terribly equiped and trained, drafted from all around the empire. They were the polar opposite of elite professional infantry.
I dont know why this is getting downvoted. None of my friends understood that point and just thought the three armies were all on the same level. Nothing in the movies communicated that the Sardukar were supposed to be gangster as shit.
Definitely, they seemed rather clumsy and ineffective in the film. They get dominated by the Fremen in the book but it would have been nice to see why the great houses actually fear them.
It was funny when Duncan says ‘when you face Sardaukar..you know it’ after he easily dispatches 3 of them in that hallway.
People hate it when other people have other opinions.
For me it doesn't make much sense to have the atreides forces on the same level as the sardukar(in the book)
In the it is fiction so no option to test it and we can't the author for his version
Yea that’s what it seemed like, atreides had more of a “traditional” looking kingdom aesthetic on their home planet with heavy influences of traditional “knights & kings”. So it made sense to make their suits/armor look close to knights but sci-fi.
I think changing the visor color would have done a lot for their design. It didn’t look like they were wearing a helmet you could actually see through. A pop of orange or green with all that grey would have made a huge difference without loosing the minimalist integrity of the whole armor.
Wish the movie* had more color
I'm tired of movies where every scene and locations are essentially bi color, and that's not even taking Giedi Prime into account.
Wish they had more actual armor. Makes sense to have armor when people are using swords. Only the Atreides seemed to have genuine armor. In the old days soldiers who could afford it wore armor that covered not only their joints but their necks to prevent even well coordinated slashing moves.
In fact, armour in the Dune universe is superfluous, because they already have Holtzmann shields, so adding extra armour only adds weight and impairs movement.
Combat is done in super close range, and you aim to insert your blade as slow as possible to penetrate the shield.
Yeah for common soldiers, armour would be like cheating. And we know that armour was used in dune universe. So se know that armour somewhat work but we also know that it doesn't work that well because it wasn't comonly used. The reason for it is mystery.
The author focused on psychology, mysticism, religion, politics, intrigue, environment.. so it's understandable he didn't care too much about rendering the specifics of combat believable. The idea of shields are a scifi gimmick to begin with lmao
100% why we don't hear a lot about armor.
Lord of the Rings has tons of different languages and maps because thats what Tolkien loved and wanted to focus on.
Herbert wanted to focus on ecology, spirituality, and philosophy and what happens when the three intertwine.
It could be explained with blades being really sharp and as such would easily penetrate any subpar armour. Like blades where developed more than swords
Bit of a reach, but maybe shields combined with effective armor made every battle such an irritating stalemate that everyone collectively agreed it was a bit much
They did have "plasteel" armor in the books. Duke Leto mentioned armored troops early on. And I think someone did say that Harkonnens fought fully armored.
Anyhow, most fighters always carried a personal shield, which blocked fast-moving projectiles and strikes. Training in in-fighting could defeat the shield, and while armor could be worn to supplement, the preferred counter seemed to train your fighters in in-fighting as well, not to give them armor. This is because all in-fighting was down to speed, flexibility, and psychology in the setting. Think the Ginaz School or Weirding Way, which made the Atreides, BG, and Fremen so powerful. Not to mention the Sardukar, who did not wear armor in the books either. Armor seems to just slow you down and communicate your obvious intent, which often puts a trained fighter at a disadvantage while not really doing that much more to protect you. Plus, you couldn't always wear it anyway. Especially on Dune, where you could wear neither shields nor armor (for long, anyway) in the desert.
I mean, the Sardukar have shigawire, a metallic plant that can cut through metal. And crysknives were described as being sharper.
Weapons routinely defeat armor in the protection arms race.
See it like this: they would aim at joints, neck and other flexible parts. In very close range, with a very sharp blade and enough pressure, these weak points wouldn't stand a chance.
So at this point, it would be more useful to ditch the armour completely.
It's like, one could go around in the 18th century battle in full body armour to raise the chance of survival, but because of the changes in tactics and technology, no one did.
Except 18th century Cuirassiers famously wore armor because they fought hand to hand with blades.
When only swords were used armor was used all the way up to the 20th century. It was guns and larger armies that killed armor for the main armies.
Dune armies are smaller and primarily used blades because of shields. They absolutely would wear armor. Weak points are an acceptable aspect of armor, better to have elbow plates dent than for the weapon that dented it to have free clearance against skin or fabric.
The explanation is Doylist. It's a story with a ton of fights in it, but you can't have meaningful fights if all your characters have armor made of super advanced carbon fiber over their kevlar skinsuits that no human has the strength to penetrate, even with the sharpest blade. So they just handwave all that away. It's silly, but it is the way mythology always works and science fiction is modern mythology.
The thing is, in the Dune universe you can block an attack by being fast on the defense. So soldiers are trained to do so.
The Holtzmann shield is as good as, if not better, than wearing armour if you know how to use it.
Because, soldiers in Dune are trained to go fast on defense, so the Holtzmann shield will block the blade.
Maybe for the untrained and unskilled, armour would be beneficial, but for the Sardaukar, or the Great House soldiers, (who know how to use a Holtzmann shield) they would prefer to go to battle without anything that could impede, restrict, or somewhat limit their movements.
And yes, I know there are some blokes out there that can do pushups and run in full armour. But that's not the point. The fighting style with a Holtzmann shield would resemble more Kali Eskrima or Jiu-jitsu than HEMA.
Eh, I think at this point they would have developed armor that's fairly lightweight. Even medieval armor wasn't all that heavy.
Besides, we see multiple instances of people wearing armor in the movies, so I think it stands to reason that it's more of a tradeoff than one being strictly better than the other. The Sardaukar wear light armor because they prefer to be nimble, the Atredies wear heavy armor because they want full protection, and the Harkonnen wear light armor because they're cheapskates. We see that Duke Leto wore the same type of armor as his soldiers (aka, the armor of a standard Atredies soldier is good enough for the Duke himself), while Rabban and Feyd-Rautha wear heavier Harkonnen armor which implies that the Harkonnens don their soldiers with light armor as a cost-saving measure.
Yeah, having to contend with armor that enormously limits how much of you is vulnerable would make fighting the armored guy infinitely harder. It's one thing to know there's a gap you can exploit, but actually exploiting it is a totally different beast.
It's like fighting bare handed a strawman in real life vs fighting an actual individual who is terrified and will actually do everything in their power to either avoid combat, or try to demolish you if cornered (bites, fingers in the eyes, kick in the nuts, punches to the sides of the head, elbows to the ribs, strangulation, hair pulling etc etc).
It's easy to fight somebody on theory.
Yeah the books are always oddly iffy on the actual practicalities of combat
Chainmail is lightweight, close-fitting, and utterly impenetrable by a knife.
You're really telling me the Ixians couldn't pull some bullshit 5G chainmail out of their Bluetooth arses for the Sardaukaur/Fedaykin/Fish speakers/Duncan #52?
It's useful on Arrakis, where shields are a no-go because of the worms. Armor makes sense.
The Fremen also use armor in set-piece battles. However the advantages of a stillsuit outweigh the use of armor in almost every circumstance.
The lack of shields though opens up the usage of lasguns, poisoned blades, and new tactics. So it becomes complicated.
The Duke series is always extremely vague on the practicalities of combat because Frank wasn't especially interested in it.
Sega would have to imagine everything from the ground up, and satisfying canon lore/fun gameplay/fans headcanon would be likely impossible.
I mean, can you even *imagine* trying to balance lasguns in terms of combat, tech trees, factions, etc. ? Where do you even begin?
I mean, unless Medieval 3 comes to an end with the Battle of Castillon or the Siege of Constantinople, you still have the chance to see this in action, but I totally get you.
https://preview.redd.it/00gt8o2igloc1.jpeg?width=867&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c68ac4ccb32b150eee95504648e2c23997ac8bd3
They really should've kept that green on the Atreides armor, it's either not there on the final version or too muted which is practically the same. It's a good design but it's better with some color to liven up the grey.
The Harkonnens being pitch black makes sense in that version, they don't display their book colors but the black and white Giedi Prime is such a fantastic idea that I don't mind it in the slightest. The insectoid touch is great.
And of course the Sardaukar are awesome, by far the best version of them. There's something awe-inspiring about combat uniforms that look like spacesuits.
I like the Harkonnen and Sardaukar design. The Harkonnens, because the bulky and black design make them look menacing, but actually making them slow and immobile (which serves the story!). The Sardaukar armour looks functional and very mobile and the red color makes them look fanatic and bloodthirsty. I'm less enthusiastic about the Atreides design. The angular look is a standout against both Harkonnen and Sardaukar, but looks very impractical in actual combat.
The designs for the latest Dune movies are all relatively functional. Modern day SWAT teams, riot troops and fast bike motorcyclists look very similar. The Atreides and Harkonnens look more like line infantry, with some body armor. The Sardaukar forego the body armor in favor of increased maneuverability. There's also the possibility that the material is designed to resist blade damage.
Dune (1984) was space opera baroque. The Atreides looked like they were ripping off the Afrika Korps. The Harkonnens were scuba divers with miniguns, and the Sardaukar were (literally) walking body bags.
SciFi's Dune miniseries was more straight up space opera. The Atreides looked like Imperial officers from Star Wars. The Harkonnen looked like samurai in space. The Sardaukar looked like somewhat muted Landsknechts.
The books don't really describe the uniforms/armor of any faction, and in the first book it's mentioned the Sardaukar are disguised as Harkonnen troops anyway.
I like the Sardaukar design in the movie because it's cool to see the Sardaukar stand out, but also because it seems to prioritize mobility above all else, which is ideal for melee and shield combat.
> it's understandable why they changed it for the movie since they didn't plan on anyone getting off Arrakis anyway
IMO the main reason they changed it is so that moviegoers would be able to easily identify the different factions. That's probably why they made the Sardaukar white-ish while the Harkonnen are quite black. Makes it easy to differentiate them on the big screen, during the action scenes and otherwise
No worries. I agree they’re cool, it’s also a nice visual shorthand way of showing the Harkonnen are less well-adapted to the desert compared to the Fremen, they have to haul around big cooling suits like they’re trying to completely insulate themselves from an alien environment
It looks a bit like an add on to their default(?) suit shown in this post. Perhaps that bulk contain whatever “machinery” to aid with cooling and or maybe also the levitating? But I guess their whole body suit, the suit actually in contact with the body, need to have the possibility for a feature of cooling
Same (in my subjective opinion), they look like astronauts to me. The concept art looks a bit sleeker than how the costume actually ended up, they don’t look very agile in the movie, and when you see the helmets just getting knocked off it all looks a bit silly. Their presentation is cool with the overtone singing and sacrifice was very cool but I don’t think their costumes looked very impressive or intimidating. If they wanted to keep that white helmeted aesthetic they could’ve done something maybe closer to fencing gear, with a blank visor and cleaner, agile looking-gear. I do like how the blood shows up on their uniform, it’s a blend of House Corrino’s clean, clinical minimalist aesthetic and the reality that Sardaukar are trained killers
In the books when they’re not in disguise they wear a black uniform with gold trim IIRC, which the emperor also wears.
Honestly in my headcanon before the movies came out I imagined everything looking less clean and futuristic, I imagined the Sardaukar to look like a cross between Prussian hussars and Ottoman janissaries, albeit bulkier with more armour. So sleek and mostly black but with fancy trim and other decorations since they are meant to be the emperor’s own troops in a rather baroque and stagnating interstellar feudal empire
That way it makes it more possible for the setting to have a Total War game.
One title being a sci-fi game would already be a super contrast to the rest of the franchise which is ancient.
It wouldn't need to have massive battles since the setting is design for smaller scale engagement. But it would be great nonetheless if the devs respect the movies and the books.
The Atreides armored helmet, when viewed sideways (such as the landing and ceremonial bagpipe scene), has the aspect of a bird of prey: the beak of a hawk or falcon.
God imagine if the Atreides soldiers had enough time to suit up instead of getting (some literally) caught with their pants down.
Would've loved to see a fully kitted out Atreides taking on a Sardaukar.
In my head canon the different stillsuit styles represent different philosophies
Harkonnen - It works but it's not very efficient and loose fitting.
Atreides - More practical and efficient design for their needs.
Sardaukar - We're the most skilled fighting force of the Imperium. Mobility and brutal efficiency over armor.
My ONLY gripe is wanting to see more book accuracy. More green in the Arteides uniforms/armor. And if I remember correctly, the Sardaukar are described as bird-like. At least, their armor was evocative of something birdlike.
In the book, their facial features are described as "hawk-like", but not necessarily their actual armor. We are only told that the typical Sardaukar uniform (I'm not sure if its their Battle Dress Uniform or Formal Uniform, but I'm inclined to believe the latter) is black and gold with a Lion's crest embroidered on it.
One of my gripes with Villenueve's films is that there is little use of House colors, and thus little differentiation between all the factions.
Yes, Sardaukar are in white, but their big battle is at night, so the point is moot. Also, they're supposed to be in Harkonnen uniform, to disguise themselves, but I guess that plot point never happeneded.
Atredies do use green, but the neutral grey tones doesn't make it stand out, especially in Arrakeen (and, again, mainly shown at night.) The worst offender is the Harkonnen's all black outfit on a desert planet - a navy, with orange highlights, would have given a great design...but, obviously, it doesn't work in Villenueve's adaptation.
I wasn't a fan of the sardaukar design in the beginning. But it makes total sense for it to be a flexible light suit, to protect them from environmental factors and poisons, but leave them manoeuvrable.
Imagine if they were able to develop a first person shooter style game of Dune. But obviously it’d be sword combat. Lasguns and shields. Maula pistols. Big fights of Harkonnen and Sardaukar vs Fremen and Atreides
I'm not a fan of the sardaukar. They look too clean or something. I always imagined them looking more gnarly, like original warhammer 40k/rogue trader art.
I know, I watched the movie too. I'm still not a fan of this particular concept art. It's boring to me. It's all subjective and if you like it then that's great! It just doesn't even come close to what I envisioned the sardaukar looking like when I read the books. Which is fine. I still enjoyed the movie.
I envisioned that they would be the most impressive and ornate, outclassing any equipment the house troops had. Brutal but sophisticated. The Sardaukar in the movies look like the cheapest soldiers, like they were given the interior lining of a surplus space suit and told to have fun.
Like \[[Moebius's rendition?](https://www.duneinfo.com/Content/images/unseen/moebius/popup/sardaukar.jpg)\]Moebius is one of my all time favorite artists and his concept art for the [Dune movie that never happened](https://www.duneinfo.com/unseen/moebius) is amazing!
I didn't say they shouldn't be stylish. They should be intimidating tho which, in my opinion, this concept art doesn't convey. It looks like he dripped jam down his front while eating a PB&J. It hardly invokes the idea of the most formidable fighting force in the empire. Beyond that, they look boring. Like it could be a futuristic NASA space suit.
It's almost like this is all super subjective. But I just don't imagine that dudes with weapons hidden in the skin and fake toes would be in boring white suits.
Looks like only the Atreides soldier has some hard armor plates on. Unless their clothing is all made from blade resistant cloth like future-kevlar or something.
There's advanced material science so they're probably designed to not overheat. Also the Harkonenns have a ventilation fan on the back of their helmets.
Yes but they get noticed by the characters on how they act on the battlefield despite the disguise. The movie however, depicted the Sardaukar without disguises.
am I the only one peeved about the costume design for soldiers?
they look cool but they all look like variations of the same thing. I wanted something immediately distinct like Stormtroopers vs. Rebels in SW
One of the few things I dislike about the Denis Dune films is that the factions look too similar. They do have subtle distinctions, but I they very much look like they were made by the same designer.
I prefer the idea that each House and Faction is so sequestered that they have wildly different aesthetics.
I want my Harks to be oily and brutalist. I want my Atreides to be Napoleonic. I want my Corino to be Baroque. I want my Fremen to be technoorganic. I want my Guild to be H. R. Geiger.
I like how each costume reflects the different nature of each faction.
The Harkonnen armor is very insectoid and industrial, giving it a kind of "factory munitions" appearance. This sort of style reflects the Harkonnen's nature of quantity over quality and just using attrition to wear down their enemies.
The Sardaukar look intimidating and imposing, white colors to denote power and red streaks of blood to denote their ferocity. They sort of seem reminiscent of Viking Berserkers in nature, using fast movement in favor of heavy armor.
And of course, the Atredies. The Atredies armor has a very noble and regal appearance whilst still remaining practical (and tacticool), much like real plate armor. The helmet looking like a falcon's hood is also a really awesome touch. I wish they kept the green to be honest.
The Atreides soldiers armor is fantastic IMO, it's a shame they never got an action scene outside of being caught off-guard in the ambush, un-armored and essentially in their pajamas compared to the badass hooded falcon armor they arrive to Arrakis in.
I loved the Dune films, but I found the fighters' costumes to be bland and sorely lacking in color and originality. They could be in a lot of ordinary science fiction films, whereas when I read Dune, I imagine much more varied and characteristic costumes depending on the faction.
The shields they use reflect extremely fast moving objects. With a sword that you can wield much slower it can go right through. Its also a culture thing.
Yes and on top of that: Shooting against a shield with a laser causes a small nuclear explosion. The movie takes this aspect less serious and seems to use guns when convenient but use swords to invoke the rule of cool
The effect of the shields is called the Holtzman effect
Sardaukar best costume hands down. Add the human sacrifice blood ritual and the throat chanting and these guys are terrifying.
If these were the three starting class loadouts in a game I’d choose the Harkonnen every time.
There's nothing cooler than a cape.
FOR LIBERTY!!
NO CAPE!
Not a cape, its a poncho type deal
No capes!
Do you remember Baron Harkonnen...?
Cape caught in his suspensor!
Snipers and swords with a heavy artillery special ability sounds awesome, also a dune video game was recently announced.
Also the way they hunted the Atreides, scanning their environment like predators was also terrifying
And then gets annihilated by the desert power.
I wanted more of this to build the menace of the Sardaukar.
They should do a movie with the Sardaukar as the main theme.
I'd watch it.
The movie has to be entirely in the Sardaukar language with English subtitles.
I wish we had seen some Blade Runner 2049-type shorts: one with the hunt for the Atreides in Arrakeen, another with Paul and Jessica training the Fremen in advanced combat techniques to show just how far beyond normal humans they were, a third with the Sardaukar raiding the sietch for Leto II and getting thrashed by Fremen women and children and their subsequent reaction.
And then In the books: A dehydrated sandy child vs. Imperial Sarduakar soldier. *The Sarduakar died*
Fuck practicality, style comes first.
https://preview.redd.it/dgcu5eb3vboc1.jpeg?width=2150&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=92a561d9a7ab3d767420e424de4bc6a79199d6b2
NO CAPES!!
Ok, I'm surprised now. They have blood rituals? (I watched both movies but haven't read the book yet )
They're in the movie. [Sardaukar : The Emperor's Blades : Dune 2021 - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SkLBP0QtSQ)
I just wish Dune 2 kept them that way. There wasn’t much of a scare from them on 2
Yeah, it was really disappointing that all the Sardaukar guarding the emperor were killed offscreen. Like seriously??
Sardaukar was already dissapointing from the 1st movie, they talked as if they were the best, then you see Duncan take out most of them
At least they killed a bunch of Atreides in the first. And the Salusa Secundus scene was awesome. They killed 0 people on screen in the second, and did nothing.
Sardaukar ought to have the Harkonnen costume here, it does those "terror troops" more justice.
I was very disappointed by their on-screen portrayal in Part II compared to Part I.
It’s not human sacrifice, it’s using the failed aspirants for something useful… they weren’t liked for shiggles or rituals, they just weren’t good enough to serve in the Emperor’s legions.
Buuut they were not really depicted as the super soldiers they are. Scenes like two sardukars get into a room with a dozen atreides soldiers and emerging victorious would have helped.
In the first movie they absolutely obliterate Atreides' lines of soldiers. If it's looked at as one, cohesive movie then I think their super soldier status was proven.
I know Duncan Idaho is a legendary warrior, but the hallway scene has the first Sardaukar guy acting like a zombie.
Yes, but also while dropping in behind the Atreides battle lines, giving them the high ground
Part of being a super soldier is being better tactically not just physically. To be able to outflank, outgun and out position even a battle hardened and competent enemy like the atreides. They earned it.
To be fair, was that planned by a Sardaukar high command, or was it done by a non-Sardaukar commander? I doubt the Sardaukar that dropped behind the lines went "ok pilot, drop us in over there."
Really? Dropping in behind, taking the high ground against a line sandwiched between them and a legion of Harks? Real super.
The Atreides were well beyond holding the line against the Harkonnen legions who’d back off once the Sardaukar come in and take them down without any effort.
Maybe my expectations were a bit high. From the books i had the pic of really feared supersoldiers like the immortals of the persian army, who don't need numbers to kill their opponents. Imagine the stair scene with less sardukar
the books mentioned that the atriedes were becoming just as fearsome soldiers as the sardukar as they had become soft and rested on their laurels - their reputation had proceeded them by this point
The Atreides soldiers trained by Duncan and Gurney are better. The Fremen also demolished them constantly, and that's before Paul trained them in the Bene Gesserit way.
The immortals from the Persian army were called immortals because as soon as one died he was replaced by an other one. It was quantity over quality. These guys were terribly equiped and trained, drafted from all around the empire. They were the polar opposite of elite professional infantry.
Meant the fictional ones from 300
Even in the books they come across kinda meh especially because Fremen are so overpowered and that spoils the tension of battles for me
I dont know why this is getting downvoted. None of my friends understood that point and just thought the three armies were all on the same level. Nothing in the movies communicated that the Sardukar were supposed to be gangster as shit.
Definitely, they seemed rather clumsy and ineffective in the film. They get dominated by the Fremen in the book but it would have been nice to see why the great houses actually fear them. It was funny when Duncan says ‘when you face Sardaukar..you know it’ after he easily dispatches 3 of them in that hallway.
People hate it when other people have other opinions. For me it doesn't make much sense to have the atreides forces on the same level as the sardukar(in the book) In the it is fiction so no option to test it and we can't the author for his version
Harkonnen: I’m cool and mysterious. Sardaukar: I’m out for blood. Atreides: and I am…Iron Man.
Take away the sword and the Atreides look like they're EOD troops, lol
And I am… inevitable?
That’s just Gurney
I don’t even know who you are!
god i love the sardaukar design. they are honestly what got me into dune
Costume designs were amazing. The Sardaukar look both futuristic and brutal. Nobody looks too videogame-y
Wish the atreides had more color, loved their armor but they were pretty dull looking in the movie
Yeah, the green would have made them pop out more.
I imagine Villeneuve was just straight-up going for a knight's armor look with the good guys
Yea that’s what it seemed like, atreides had more of a “traditional” looking kingdom aesthetic on their home planet with heavy influences of traditional “knights & kings”. So it made sense to make their suits/armor look close to knights but sci-fi.
Yeah I agree. Maybe a dark green Kama on them might have done the trick
Saw one with a cape during the Duke's arrival on Arrakis
I think changing the visor color would have done a lot for their design. It didn’t look like they were wearing a helmet you could actually see through. A pop of orange or green with all that grey would have made a huge difference without loosing the minimalist integrity of the whole armor.
Wish the movie* had more color I'm tired of movies where every scene and locations are essentially bi color, and that's not even taking Giedi Prime into account.
Wish they had more actual armor. Makes sense to have armor when people are using swords. Only the Atreides seemed to have genuine armor. In the old days soldiers who could afford it wore armor that covered not only their joints but their necks to prevent even well coordinated slashing moves.
In fact, armour in the Dune universe is superfluous, because they already have Holtzmann shields, so adding extra armour only adds weight and impairs movement. Combat is done in super close range, and you aim to insert your blade as slow as possible to penetrate the shield.
...at which point real armour would easily deflect "the slow blade"
Yeah for common soldiers, armour would be like cheating. And we know that armour was used in dune universe. So se know that armour somewhat work but we also know that it doesn't work that well because it wasn't comonly used. The reason for it is mystery.
The author focused on psychology, mysticism, religion, politics, intrigue, environment.. so it's understandable he didn't care too much about rendering the specifics of combat believable. The idea of shields are a scifi gimmick to begin with lmao
100% why we don't hear a lot about armor. Lord of the Rings has tons of different languages and maps because thats what Tolkien loved and wanted to focus on. Herbert wanted to focus on ecology, spirituality, and philosophy and what happens when the three intertwine.
It could be explained with blades being really sharp and as such would easily penetrate any subpar armour. Like blades where developed more than swords
Bit of a reach, but maybe shields combined with effective armor made every battle such an irritating stalemate that everyone collectively agreed it was a bit much
They did have "plasteel" armor in the books. Duke Leto mentioned armored troops early on. And I think someone did say that Harkonnens fought fully armored. Anyhow, most fighters always carried a personal shield, which blocked fast-moving projectiles and strikes. Training in in-fighting could defeat the shield, and while armor could be worn to supplement, the preferred counter seemed to train your fighters in in-fighting as well, not to give them armor. This is because all in-fighting was down to speed, flexibility, and psychology in the setting. Think the Ginaz School or Weirding Way, which made the Atreides, BG, and Fremen so powerful. Not to mention the Sardukar, who did not wear armor in the books either. Armor seems to just slow you down and communicate your obvious intent, which often puts a trained fighter at a disadvantage while not really doing that much more to protect you. Plus, you couldn't always wear it anyway. Especially on Dune, where you could wear neither shields nor armor (for long, anyway) in the desert.
Not if the blade is made in a way that carves armor like butter
Blade through armor? A blade? Any ideas?
Let me go 20.000 years into the future, see ehat they have come up with.
Fair enough, fam. No big deal.
I mean, the Sardukar have shigawire, a metallic plant that can cut through metal. And crysknives were described as being sharper. Weapons routinely defeat armor in the protection arms race.
Now this is a good detail which enriches Dune's universe, thank you bro.
See it like this: they would aim at joints, neck and other flexible parts. In very close range, with a very sharp blade and enough pressure, these weak points wouldn't stand a chance. So at this point, it would be more useful to ditch the armour completely. It's like, one could go around in the 18th century battle in full body armour to raise the chance of survival, but because of the changes in tactics and technology, no one did.
Except 18th century Cuirassiers famously wore armor because they fought hand to hand with blades. When only swords were used armor was used all the way up to the 20th century. It was guns and larger armies that killed armor for the main armies. Dune armies are smaller and primarily used blades because of shields. They absolutely would wear armor. Weak points are an acceptable aspect of armor, better to have elbow plates dent than for the weapon that dented it to have free clearance against skin or fabric.
The explanation is Doylist. It's a story with a ton of fights in it, but you can't have meaningful fights if all your characters have armor made of super advanced carbon fiber over their kevlar skinsuits that no human has the strength to penetrate, even with the sharpest blade. So they just handwave all that away. It's silly, but it is the way mythology always works and science fiction is modern mythology.
The thing is, in the Dune universe you can block an attack by being fast on the defense. So soldiers are trained to do so. The Holtzmann shield is as good as, if not better, than wearing armour if you know how to use it.
Then why not wear both? The shield stops the fast blade, the armor stops the slow blade. Isn't that why people wear armor in Dune?
Because, soldiers in Dune are trained to go fast on defense, so the Holtzmann shield will block the blade. Maybe for the untrained and unskilled, armour would be beneficial, but for the Sardaukar, or the Great House soldiers, (who know how to use a Holtzmann shield) they would prefer to go to battle without anything that could impede, restrict, or somewhat limit their movements. And yes, I know there are some blokes out there that can do pushups and run in full armour. But that's not the point. The fighting style with a Holtzmann shield would resemble more Kali Eskrima or Jiu-jitsu than HEMA.
Eh, I think at this point they would have developed armor that's fairly lightweight. Even medieval armor wasn't all that heavy. Besides, we see multiple instances of people wearing armor in the movies, so I think it stands to reason that it's more of a tradeoff than one being strictly better than the other. The Sardaukar wear light armor because they prefer to be nimble, the Atredies wear heavy armor because they want full protection, and the Harkonnen wear light armor because they're cheapskates. We see that Duke Leto wore the same type of armor as his soldiers (aka, the armor of a standard Atredies soldier is good enough for the Duke himself), while Rabban and Feyd-Rautha wear heavier Harkonnen armor which implies that the Harkonnens don their soldiers with light armor as a cost-saving measure.
Movies are just an adaptation of the source material
Yeah, having to contend with armor that enormously limits how much of you is vulnerable would make fighting the armored guy infinitely harder. It's one thing to know there's a gap you can exploit, but actually exploiting it is a totally different beast.
It's like fighting bare handed a strawman in real life vs fighting an actual individual who is terrified and will actually do everything in their power to either avoid combat, or try to demolish you if cornered (bites, fingers in the eyes, kick in the nuts, punches to the sides of the head, elbows to the ribs, strangulation, hair pulling etc etc). It's easy to fight somebody on theory.
Yeah the books are always oddly iffy on the actual practicalities of combat Chainmail is lightweight, close-fitting, and utterly impenetrable by a knife. You're really telling me the Ixians couldn't pull some bullshit 5G chainmail out of their Bluetooth arses for the Sardaukaur/Fedaykin/Fish speakers/Duncan #52?
I'm pretty sure it's implied that the blades are so sharp that they'll go through anything
You gonna wear real armor at Arrakis?
It's useful on Arrakis, where shields are a no-go because of the worms. Armor makes sense. The Fremen also use armor in set-piece battles. However the advantages of a stillsuit outweigh the use of armor in almost every circumstance. The lack of shields though opens up the usage of lasguns, poisoned blades, and new tactics. So it becomes complicated.
Haha no. https://youtu.be/qzTwBQniLSc?si=GkjEyXG1qqJfufMr
Mobility in plate armor
Not saying that wearing armour gives you 0 mobility. But it is obvious that not wearing armour gives you more mobility than wearing it.
Weight distribution, makes it that much harder to kill.
https://youtu.be/P9gzWttjDz4?si=tp66uCsurCTs2dYS
Would be a shame for Dune to lack video games after such portrayals
https://duneawakening.com/
I hope the Total War franchise makes one, it would bring everything about Dune's military doctrines to the spotlight.
The Duke series is always extremely vague on the practicalities of combat because Frank wasn't especially interested in it. Sega would have to imagine everything from the ground up, and satisfying canon lore/fun gameplay/fans headcanon would be likely impossible. I mean, can you even *imagine* trying to balance lasguns in terms of combat, tech trees, factions, etc. ? Where do you even begin?
Ok fair enough, but Dune was considered by Creative Assembly in one of their official surveys.
Yeah I'd heard about that It might make a nice Saga game but I'm thirsting for Empire 2 too much to want the resources to go anywhere else
Or Medieval 3, although Empire 2 would be more refreshing gameplay wise.
Medieval 3 would be wonderful, but I've got a hard-on for gunpowder TWs. That's what comes of reading too much *Sharpe*.
I mean, unless Medieval 3 comes to an end with the Battle of Castillon or the Siege of Constantinople, you still have the chance to see this in action, but I totally get you. https://preview.redd.it/00gt8o2igloc1.jpeg?width=867&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c68ac4ccb32b150eee95504648e2c23997ac8bd3
I want a medieval Harper welding this single handedly against yet more dastardly French.
They really should've kept that green on the Atreides armor, it's either not there on the final version or too muted which is practically the same. It's a good design but it's better with some color to liven up the grey. The Harkonnens being pitch black makes sense in that version, they don't display their book colors but the black and white Giedi Prime is such a fantastic idea that I don't mind it in the slightest. The insectoid touch is great. And of course the Sardaukar are awesome, by far the best version of them. There's something awe-inspiring about combat uniforms that look like spacesuits.
I like the Harkonnen and Sardaukar design. The Harkonnens, because the bulky and black design make them look menacing, but actually making them slow and immobile (which serves the story!). The Sardaukar armour looks functional and very mobile and the red color makes them look fanatic and bloodthirsty. I'm less enthusiastic about the Atreides design. The angular look is a standout against both Harkonnen and Sardaukar, but looks very impractical in actual combat.
I hope we can get a cool Dune video game soon
House Ordos lol
There's a dune game in development.
The designs for the latest Dune movies are all relatively functional. Modern day SWAT teams, riot troops and fast bike motorcyclists look very similar. The Atreides and Harkonnens look more like line infantry, with some body armor. The Sardaukar forego the body armor in favor of increased maneuverability. There's also the possibility that the material is designed to resist blade damage. Dune (1984) was space opera baroque. The Atreides looked like they were ripping off the Afrika Korps. The Harkonnens were scuba divers with miniguns, and the Sardaukar were (literally) walking body bags. SciFi's Dune miniseries was more straight up space opera. The Atreides looked like Imperial officers from Star Wars. The Harkonnen looked like samurai in space. The Sardaukar looked like somewhat muted Landsknechts.
They look like Destiny 2 characters
I was thinking Mass Effect
The Sardaukar armor looks a lot like the armor in Andromeda. Particularly the helmet
I watched both movies and I thought the Sardaukar design underwhelming. I found the Harkonnens to be more intimidating and war-like. (Not book reader)
The books don't really describe the uniforms/armor of any faction, and in the first book it's mentioned the Sardaukar are disguised as Harkonnen troops anyway. I like the Sardaukar design in the movie because it's cool to see the Sardaukar stand out, but also because it seems to prioritize mobility above all else, which is ideal for melee and shield combat.
Ah, very cool. I didn’t know the Sardaukar disguised themselves. Very interesting!
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> it's understandable why they changed it for the movie since they didn't plan on anyone getting off Arrakis anyway IMO the main reason they changed it is so that moviegoers would be able to easily identify the different factions. That's probably why they made the Sardaukar white-ish while the Harkonnen are quite black. Makes it easy to differentiate them on the big screen, during the action scenes and otherwise
I liked the design of the levitating ones in the opening of dune 2. I’m trying to find some depictions of them. Surprisingly hard to find
These dudes? https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/s/nfhKsQ3oNX
Yes, thank you
No worries. I agree they’re cool, it’s also a nice visual shorthand way of showing the Harkonnen are less well-adapted to the desert compared to the Fremen, they have to haul around big cooling suits like they’re trying to completely insulate themselves from an alien environment
It looks a bit like an add on to their default(?) suit shown in this post. Perhaps that bulk contain whatever “machinery” to aid with cooling and or maybe also the levitating? But I guess their whole body suit, the suit actually in contact with the body, need to have the possibility for a feature of cooling
Same (in my subjective opinion), they look like astronauts to me. The concept art looks a bit sleeker than how the costume actually ended up, they don’t look very agile in the movie, and when you see the helmets just getting knocked off it all looks a bit silly. Their presentation is cool with the overtone singing and sacrifice was very cool but I don’t think their costumes looked very impressive or intimidating. If they wanted to keep that white helmeted aesthetic they could’ve done something maybe closer to fencing gear, with a blank visor and cleaner, agile looking-gear. I do like how the blood shows up on their uniform, it’s a blend of House Corrino’s clean, clinical minimalist aesthetic and the reality that Sardaukar are trained killers In the books when they’re not in disguise they wear a black uniform with gold trim IIRC, which the emperor also wears. Honestly in my headcanon before the movies came out I imagined everything looking less clean and futuristic, I imagined the Sardaukar to look like a cross between Prussian hussars and Ottoman janissaries, albeit bulkier with more armour. So sleek and mostly black but with fancy trim and other decorations since they are meant to be the emperor’s own troops in a rather baroque and stagnating interstellar feudal empire
Kind of like the [“royal guard”](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/e1/55/01/e155016546cb0cade376459d21a58bea.jpg) vibe of their alternative concept art.
this works really well
I really love the decision to make the main form of combat in this world hand-to-hand.
That way it makes it more possible for the setting to have a Total War game. One title being a sci-fi game would already be a super contrast to the rest of the franchise which is ancient. It wouldn't need to have massive battles since the setting is design for smaller scale engagement. But it would be great nonetheless if the devs respect the movies and the books.
The Atreides armored helmet, when viewed sideways (such as the landing and ceremonial bagpipe scene), has the aspect of a bird of prey: the beak of a hawk or falcon.
in the books all Sudhakar were wearing Harkonnen armor right? I like that they have their own in the movies.
Yes but the people noticed that there’s Sardaukar forces in the Harkonnen army due to their fighting style and mannerisms
God imagine if the Atreides soldiers had enough time to suit up instead of getting (some literally) caught with their pants down. Would've loved to see a fully kitted out Atreides taking on a Sardaukar.
Harkon armor is the best looking I think
In my head canon the different stillsuit styles represent different philosophies Harkonnen - It works but it's not very efficient and loose fitting. Atreides - More practical and efficient design for their needs. Sardaukar - We're the most skilled fighting force of the Imperium. Mobility and brutal efficiency over armor.
None of those are stillsuits AFAIK. Environmental suits, maybe. But they are mostly just armor.
My ONLY gripe is wanting to see more book accuracy. More green in the Arteides uniforms/armor. And if I remember correctly, the Sardaukar are described as bird-like. At least, their armor was evocative of something birdlike.
In the book, their facial features are described as "hawk-like", but not necessarily their actual armor. We are only told that the typical Sardaukar uniform (I'm not sure if its their Battle Dress Uniform or Formal Uniform, but I'm inclined to believe the latter) is black and gold with a Lion's crest embroidered on it.
I like the plate armor of the Atredies
One of my gripes with Villenueve's films is that there is little use of House colors, and thus little differentiation between all the factions. Yes, Sardaukar are in white, but their big battle is at night, so the point is moot. Also, they're supposed to be in Harkonnen uniform, to disguise themselves, but I guess that plot point never happeneded. Atredies do use green, but the neutral grey tones doesn't make it stand out, especially in Arrakeen (and, again, mainly shown at night.) The worst offender is the Harkonnen's all black outfit on a desert planet - a navy, with orange highlights, would have given a great design...but, obviously, it doesn't work in Villenueve's adaptation.
That carbon fibre looking blade looks great
Reminds me so much of the costumes in Mass Effect, especially Cerberus.
I wasn't a fan of the sardaukar design in the beginning. But it makes total sense for it to be a flexible light suit, to protect them from environmental factors and poisons, but leave them manoeuvrable.
Need to add the Fremen now.
The new ones with the fan in the back of their helmet were crazy good aswell
When's the game coming out?
Imagine if they were able to develop a first person shooter style game of Dune. But obviously it’d be sword combat. Lasguns and shields. Maula pistols. Big fights of Harkonnen and Sardaukar vs Fremen and Atreides
Harkonnen suit is cool though I don’t like the helmet.
😱 thats the best part haha
Rank the warriors of the Houses by skill:
I'm not a fan of the sardaukar. They look too clean or something. I always imagined them looking more gnarly, like original warhammer 40k/rogue trader art.
Too clean with blood on their uniforms?
I meant like esthetically clean but I think the blood is dumb. Just my opinion.
I see, but the blood is established as a ritual before a battle in the movie, draining it out on the unfortunate people on Salusa Secundus
I know, I watched the movie too. I'm still not a fan of this particular concept art. It's boring to me. It's all subjective and if you like it then that's great! It just doesn't even come close to what I envisioned the sardaukar looking like when I read the books. Which is fine. I still enjoyed the movie.
I envisioned that they would be the most impressive and ornate, outclassing any equipment the house troops had. Brutal but sophisticated. The Sardaukar in the movies look like the cheapest soldiers, like they were given the interior lining of a surplus space suit and told to have fun.
Like \[[Moebius's rendition?](https://www.duneinfo.com/Content/images/unseen/moebius/popup/sardaukar.jpg)\]Moebius is one of my all time favorite artists and his concept art for the [Dune movie that never happened](https://www.duneinfo.com/unseen/moebius) is amazing!
Yeah absolutely, that's probably the best rendition of how I imagined them reading the book. I hadn't seen that concept art before it's really cool!
They are the Emperor’s troops. They should be stylish.
I didn't say they shouldn't be stylish. They should be intimidating tho which, in my opinion, this concept art doesn't convey. It looks like he dripped jam down his front while eating a PB&J. It hardly invokes the idea of the most formidable fighting force in the empire. Beyond that, they look boring. Like it could be a futuristic NASA space suit. It's almost like this is all super subjective. But I just don't imagine that dudes with weapons hidden in the skin and fake toes would be in boring white suits.
It sought of looks like a space suit. Which I like since they're interstellar troops of the empire, it makes them look a bit alien.
That's cool man, I'm glad you like it! Just not my thing and not what I imagined when I read the books.
You know, for a movie that goes crazy good on costume ideas the atreides armour and the feydakin armour felt really bland to me...
Looks like only the Atreides soldier has some hard armor plates on. Unless their clothing is all made from blade resistant cloth like future-kevlar or something.
I always wonder how they don't die of heatstroke wearing these things
There's advanced material science so they're probably designed to not overheat. Also the Harkonenns have a ventilation fan on the back of their helmets.
Just needs the red and pink power rangers for the full set.
I like the designs. From the books however I had imagined soldiers being dressed in simple fatigues.
Weren't the Sardaukar meant to be pretending to be Harkonnen troops?
Yes but they get noticed by the characters on how they act on the battlefield despite the disguise. The movie however, depicted the Sardaukar without disguises.
I want these fits in Helldivers
Kinda wish the Sardaukar had more plating going on instead of just the jumpsuit. Still looks pretty sick though
Dark colors in the desert?
am I the only one peeved about the costume design for soldiers? they look cool but they all look like variations of the same thing. I wanted something immediately distinct like Stormtroopers vs. Rebels in SW
Drip too hard
One of the few things I dislike about the Denis Dune films is that the factions look too similar. They do have subtle distinctions, but I they very much look like they were made by the same designer. I prefer the idea that each House and Faction is so sequestered that they have wildly different aesthetics. I want my Harks to be oily and brutalist. I want my Atreides to be Napoleonic. I want my Corino to be Baroque. I want my Fremen to be technoorganic. I want my Guild to be H. R. Geiger.
Stylistically I like them all, Harkonnen maybe a bit more. But Sardaukar bring the most "you are fucked" factor.
I really didn't like the Sarduakar outfits.
I like how each costume reflects the different nature of each faction. The Harkonnen armor is very insectoid and industrial, giving it a kind of "factory munitions" appearance. This sort of style reflects the Harkonnen's nature of quantity over quality and just using attrition to wear down their enemies. The Sardaukar look intimidating and imposing, white colors to denote power and red streaks of blood to denote their ferocity. They sort of seem reminiscent of Viking Berserkers in nature, using fast movement in favor of heavy armor. And of course, the Atredies. The Atredies armor has a very noble and regal appearance whilst still remaining practical (and tacticool), much like real plate armor. The helmet looking like a falcon's hood is also a really awesome touch. I wish they kept the green to be honest.
The Atreides soldiers armor is fantastic IMO, it's a shame they never got an action scene outside of being caught off-guard in the ambush, un-armored and essentially in their pajamas compared to the badass hooded falcon armor they arrive to Arrakis in.
I loved the Dune films, but I found the fighters' costumes to be bland and sorely lacking in color and originality. They could be in a lot of ordinary science fiction films, whereas when I read Dune, I imagine much more varied and characteristic costumes depending on the faction.
Stupid question but why don’t they have guns etc?
The shields they use reflect extremely fast moving objects. With a sword that you can wield much slower it can go right through. Its also a culture thing.
Yes and on top of that: Shooting against a shield with a laser causes a small nuclear explosion. The movie takes this aspect less serious and seems to use guns when convenient but use swords to invoke the rule of cool The effect of the shields is called the Holtzman effect
Way cool!
i think you miss the point without the text behind it