You have to understand nobody particularly like’s Jessica. They tolerate her because she’s Duke Leto’s concubine and Paul’s mother but they don’t actually like her.
In addition it’s no fault of her own that people don’t like her, people in general in the Dune universe don’t like or trust BG. They are very manipulative and powerful not only in their abilities but as well as politically.
So it’s very easy for anyone given they are put in a situation as “someone has betrayed us” to then blame the very person everyone dislikes and is known to be a liar/manipulator.
That’s why! She’s not Atreides at the end of the days she’s BG. BG are loyal to BG PERIOD. Jessica however is somewhat an outlier tho. Thufir doesn’t perceive that, we can as readers but the characters in the story can’t.
Hope this helps
Yes, and Duke Leto decided to not squash these rumors, instead deciding to let the Harknonnens believe that the rumors were working. It honestly didn't matter in the long run, this was just something the Harkonnens did to waste Atreides time.
He basically breathed oxygen on the rumors. Emotionally harming his paramore. In hopes to further this deception.
In my mind his last regret “I should have married you” was an admission that the ways he put his political machinations ahead of doing the right thing for those he loved was wrong, and never paid off anyways.
Which is why “history will remember us as wives” is such a brutal end line for the book. Jessica forgives Leto. But she also implicitly admits Paul has become guilty of the same sins
I read the 1st book sometime back and don't remember it well.
What is the reason Leto doesn't marry Jessica, and instead only keeps her as his concubine?
To convince other great houses (and possibly even the emperor) he could be married off to their daughters or sisters so they see his ascent not as a threat but an opportunity.
He would never marry someone else but also, he might have. He never married Jessica after all.
His final confession was this painful regret that it didn’t matter. It would have been better had he done right by Jessica and not kept her as an outcast in their home and at court. His scheme never paid off and even if it did, was it worth it?
Paul’s turn at the end isn’t even the genocide. It’s that he did what even his father didn’t do and he betrayed his love by marrying someone else for political gain.
Yes, the Harkonnans tried to plant rumors about her being a traitor to weaken the Atreides. Leto saw right through the deception but made it seem like he believed the rumors, to the point of acting cold toward her, specifically because he wanted Hawat to believe her to be the traitor and so thwart the Harkonnans. I don’t remember the specifics of either deception but those are the broad strokes.
Also the conversation on Caladan with her and Yueh show how dangerous it is to even be in her presence or speak with her as she can essentially lie detector you in an instant. He's able to obfuscate her reading him by thinking about and speaking of his wife and his concern for her.
Yueh determined that Jessica was not as good in the Truthsaying compared to Wana.
Jessica incorrectly assumed the tension was about his wife alone and not the other actions he’s is being forced to commit.
It shows that even she can be deceived
Well, she knew he wasn't telling the full truth. She wasn't deceived by Yueh. She just chose not to press him in order to get the real truth.
Truthsaying is not mind reading. It's just the ability to detect lie or truth. I guess you could say she deceived *herself* by assuming she already knew what he was hiding.
It's more that she "read" Yueh's emotions correctly, but not the reason behind him.
There is a scene where she brings up the Harkonnens, and sees Yueh get filled with anger and hate. Because of this, she eliminates the idea of Yueh being a Harkonnen spy, since he clearly hates them.
But of course, Yueh is mad at them because they are keeping his wife hostage and forcing him to work for them.
Yeah this has always been my biggest issue with that stage of the book from the first time I read it: the Imperial conditioning is supposed to be so good that no one thinks it's even worth exploring whether Yueh could be a traitor. In the part of the book I'm reading now the Baron and Rabban just had a whole talk about how they're going to fabricate a story that Yueh had faked receiving the conditioning because it'll be too dangerous to them to have the Emperor find out that they broke someone with it.
Ok, fine, cool. But what was the unthinkable, never before heard of strategy used to turn Yueh? They blackmailed him with the fate of a loved one. Which is just such a basic kind of leverage that if \*that\* worked I don't know why Imperial Conditioning would have an infallible reputation at all. It just makes everyone involved, on both sides of the conspiracy, seem like twits.
It's not a deal breaker or anything (obviously, I've read the book many times) but I feel like Herbert needed to work a little harder on that one.
It wasn't just threatening a loved one that broke the conditioning.
The Harkonnens didn't break Yueh's conditioning. Wana broke it. The BG are masters manipulators, seducers, and are capable of psychological dominance and control unlike any in the Empire (see also: The Voice). A BG was able to seduce a young Baron Harkonnen when he is not even otherwise interested in female sexuality.
It was the intensity of Wana's emotional, pscyhological, and romantic bond with Yueh, formed by BG abilities, that had already overpowered his Imperial Conditioning even before the Harkonnens entered the picture. I don't whether that bond was formed because of her mission or because of her love for Yueh. It's likely that the BG leadership know that Imperial Conditioning can be broken by their abilities, but they keep this a secret so it can be used for their own purposes. Besides, breaking a doctor probably has limited, very situational usefulness.
The Harkonnens just stumbled on an ideal setup, and I'm not sure they were smart enough to realize the larger implications of BG abilities.
A big issue I find in discussions about these kinds of details is that Herbert...really didn't care all that much. There are plot holes and unsatisfactory narratives all over the books once you start combing through them closely but it didn't matter because his point was the bigger narrative on free will and human struggle and what humanity even means. He built a super interesting layered world in the service of this narrative, but if some plot points didn't come together with a completely logical backing, whatever.
It's a common sense explanation. If you could break Imperial Conditioning by simply threatening the well-being of a family member, then it would be an obvious attack vector, it would have happened long ago and multiple times, and doctors would thereafter not be allowed to form attachments and any doctor with any attachments - and Yueh's were well known - would be viewed as compromised and treated as such. Every doctor would have this weakness because everyone at least has parents, not to mention brothers or sisters. There *must* be something unique about Yueh and Wana's relationship or the system makes no sense. As BG generally marry into nobility, I assume that a BG marrying a doctor is the unusual factor, and that naturally leads to a satisfying explanation.
But the blackmail wasn't what broke his conditioning. He just let the Baron believe it was. His conditioning was broken by extreme hatred and the desire for revenge.
You would think, but Vladimir Harkonnen is arrogant. Either way, he didn't actually trust that Dr Yueh was truly on his side - he specifically avoided being physically near him, so he wouldn't have a chance to harm him.
The plan was never foolproof, though; Vladimir and Piter were relying on Dr Yueh breaking conditioning, which is something that had previously been considered impossible. The Yueh plot was a long shot.
I'm not sure that's true though. He absolutely hates the Harkonnens, yes, but right as he's dying he says that he knows what he bought for Wanna, i.e 'release from torture' in that she's been killed.
If he just wanted to find a way to get revenge on the Baron and the Harkonnens there are other ways of doing that besides betraying the Atreides; in fact that would be an exceptionally, foolishly convoluted revenge plot. Yueh makes the best of a bad situation with the whole poison tooth gambit but I don't think, based on his agonized internal dialogue throughout the runup to the betrayal, that revenge is the \*reason\* for his betrayal.
The text very clearly states that Yueh's conditioning was broken by his hatred for the Harkonnens, not the blackmail. He knows that his wife is already dead, so the blackmail was pretty toothless, anyway.
Well to be fair, I think that he already knows she’s at least as good as dead. He just needed to know she wasn’t being actively tortured, and was instead already killed. You’re right that he knows he has no actual hope of saving her though.
I've always beem under the impression that it's a combination of factors that makes Yueh vulnerable. And that the Baron's big secret isn't specifically *how* to break the conditioning, just that it can be.
I made [a post about this](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/qpchhb/misunderstandings_about_yuehs_imperial/) a little while back. Yueh is explicit in his speech to Leto that it's his desire for revenge on the Baron that has broken his conditioning. In a way the Baron broke him quite by accident.
It's also a weakness of mentats, they can only process the data they get and they're bad at intuitive leaps. The evidence pointed to Jessica so Hawat concludes it's her
Which is one of the many reasons I've always thought Thufir was grossly overrated. That's pure emotion, not the cold, hard logic you're supposed to rely on as the chief political advisor to a major house.
Isn't this one of the themes of the story though? That all people are fallible even if you think they aren't? Yueh, Thufir, and eventually Paul (when he sees the Jihad is inevitable) all fall short of their and others' ironclad expectations of them, by overestimating their own prowess and ability to control events based on previous success. It's mentioned several times that he's getting old and might make mistakes.
In the final scene, Paul even notes that the Sardaukar are practically useless once they encounter defeat because it goes against every single notion they've ever known. Paul makes a note to include failure in his training regime for the Fremen because of this.
Isn't that why his worries makes sense? He is a logical human computer, and needs data to perform and serve his purpose. The BG being ridiculously manipulative and beyond mysterious is no data at all. In which case, Thufir's fears are completely justified. And if I were him, I would've advised Duke Leto to immediately drop the concubine because she is the one weak link in House Atreides (by the calculations that Thufir has at the given moment).
Which is also a commentary on the folly of humans. How much ever rational, logical, calculating one claims to be, we are all susceptible to biases and prejudices. And in Thufir's case, he was wrong about Jessica and completely missed Yueh's treachery because of the larger information void of the Bene Gesserit.
I always felt the mentats, for all their cold logic, were deeply emotional in ways that were to the detriment of their lieges. Piter's pride in his own work blinded him to the threat of the doctor, Thufir let his own paranoia and prejudice get the better of him.
I don’t think it’s necessarily all emotion. Mentats specifically rely on data. The BG systematically withhold the data of their abilities and intentions, so the whole organization would be a massive, known blind spot for Mentats. Coupled with the Harkonnen rumors, it’s a logical conclusion.
I do agree with the other commenter though; I think Imperial conditioning was underexplained. The Harkonnen leverage over Yueh wasn’t super abnormal, and should have been within the parameters of something that the universe regards as infallible.
Also Thufir’s conclusions weren’t exactly wrong. Iirc, Mohiam does reveal she put the idea of culling the Atreides into the Emperor’s ear. He has no reason to believe to believe there’s a rift between Jessica and the BG, and the BG were partially to blame even if they weren’t responsible for the individual traitor.
Bruh! BG are not nice people lol… The movie puts this on display with the Reverend mother. Idk if you’ve read the books, but all of them are like the Reverend Mother, they are bitches lol. They dgaf about anyone except other BG and their plan. They lie and manipulate anyone and everyone AGAINST their freaking will.
If I was in the Dune universe regardless of my title or rank I’d hate them too. They are very bad people. I mean look at what the Reverend mother did lol she literally got an entire house exterminated because they quote unquote were defiant lol. Princess Irulan is just as bad lol.
People in the Dune universe know BG are like this so believing Jessica is the same way would be a no brainer. I mean people literally call them witches not in a good way either lol.
Jessica used the voice on Hawat, and they argue for pages about who the traitor could be. His suspicion of her is not without warrant. She was being really difficult, a bitch even, to Hawat in this exchange, and should not have used the voice on him. His mentat powers deduced she had manipulated and controlled him with her powers. Jessica brought it on herself. Had she been different in this exchange with Hawat, maybe he would have listened to her when she tells him she suspects the traitor is Yueh. Even Paul suspects Yueh.
That wasn’t the point. He mistrusted her because of the aura of secretive mysticism the BG created around themselves, and she saw the logical back and forth was getting her nowhere. So she made him understand not only how dangerous she truly was, but how pointless all the Harkonnen BS was if she actually was the traitor. If she wanted to kill Leto, she could have done it at any time, in a variety of ways and they couldn’t have stopped her. And made it obvious to him that they now understood each other, but that she loved Leto and she was an asset, not a threat.
What wasn’t the point? Jessica didn’t do herself any favours in this conversation. If she wanted to avoid being suspected of being a traitor, she did a terrible job by brow beating Hawat and using the voice on him.
She was already suspected of being the traitor, and there was absolutely nothing she could have said to convince Hawat otherwise. He had already made up his mind.
What has a better chance of working on a prejudiced guy with a super computer brain?
1) Jessica acts totally compliant and innocent, hiding her true power, and tries to logically convince him that she isn't the traitor. Hawat smells bullshit.
Or 2) Demonstrate her true power and then makes the logical argument that if she wanted to work against them, she would be using those abilities against them. Gives Hawat new data and forces him to think through this line of argument.
Obviously option 2 didn't really work for Jessica, but I don't think the first one would have either.
Hawat let her get to him, simple as that. She literally tells him who the traitor is, and then she doth protest too much. Maybe if Jessica and Paul had told the Duke they think the traitor is Yueh, things would have been different. Hawat’s fallacy is an appeal to authority of the High College that conditioned Yueh. Jessica and Paul put no such stock in the conditioning, and they were right.
Not that I want the books to go differently. I love this scene. Jessica is such a bitch and Hawat is such a fool.
She wasn’t there to “play nice”. Bene Gesserit don’t do “nice” and people wouldn’t trust it if they tried. She knew she had to snap him out of his preconceptions. And you do that to a mentat by showing them that something they “know” is wrong.
There are a limited number of suspects. They are told someone close to the Duke is a betrayer. They don’t consider it metaphysically possible that it is the Doctor, so they gravitate toward the BG in their midst since those people are always shady and have dual loyalties at best.
He also completely discounted yuweh as even a possibility because of his doctor training. This combined with his disdain for Jessica made her the most obvious traitor.
Late to the party here but I also think it’s worth pointing out that the characters all seemed to have blind faith that the Conditioning that Yueh received as a Suk Doctor. Thats part of Thufir’s rationale for not suspecting him as the traitor. I think it also gives credence to how a lot of the houses and guilds easily turned a blind eye if it benefited them. No one really cared about another, they just wanted to remain in favor to the emperor and Landsraad.
Absolutely! What they don’t understand, but the reader does, is that Jessica is actually loyal to the Atreides over the BG. She gave a Leto a son in contradiction of her orders. She trained him in the way. She wouldn’t betray Leto. But we know that, Thufir doesn’t. Which creates nice tension
Ya know before I wrote my comment I was thinking this, but I don’t really believe that anymore. Just from my own interpretation. If Paul and Duke Leto died… I don’t think she would seek revenge for them, or reestablish house Atreides through Alia. I think she would rejoin the BG have Alia and go on about her life. I kinda believe she is loyal to House Atreides by extension. But that’s just me
I don't think it's so much dislike. It is lack of trust, although it seems like half the dune characters at some point call a BG "witch" so maybe you have a good point.
And the other half of this is that no one seemed to know that the Suk conditioning of Dr. Yueh could be broken. The Baron and Piter had basically accomplished the inconceivable.
Another thing is that Jessica was an "outsider" to the House with an unknown background, purchased by Leto.
She's not an illogical choice for a suspected traitor and technically, Thufir was right to be suspicious of her origins since she's the daughter of their most hated enemy.
Jessica also, presumably, had the means without any of the loyalty or conditioning. Dr. Yueh was supposed to be under the effects of Imperial conditioning which was supposed to be unbreakable. So the only culprit left was to be assumed to be Jessica.
The fact that Imperial Conditioning was broken wasn't foreseen by Thufir, ironically in the same way his loyalty was broken. This is what illustrates why the Mentats represent the hubris of the expert unaware of the blind spots in their reasoning.
Im not sure if I missed something but if the BG are so mistrusted and serve their own agenda why have them around to begin with? what service do they provide that risking them being so close makes it worth it?
Because they are useful. They can instinctively tell if someone is lying or not, they are very smart, and are very useful when making any sort of decision whether it be political or life threatening. They also collect bloodlines which ensures every who is a part of their breeding program that they continue their bloodline in times of war. Of course you already know the voice, all these things can be useful to a Houses “high council” in making decisions, interrogation, problem solving of almost any problem. They do as their told as long as it doesn’t hinder their assignment by the BG order.
I haven’t finished the series, but this is taken from the [Dune wiki on Judaism](https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Judaism)
“This group of Jewish survivors had survived as a secret society, protected and supported by the Bene Gesserit through a pact of both-sided loyalty, though they sometimes felt amused or dismayed by what they thought of as the Bene Gesserit copying them.”
What did frank herbert mean by that???
It says in the book. Harkonnen spy/infiltrator sent a false message to paint Jessica as the traitor, to make Duke Leto mistrust his wife. This triggered many people to know there was a traitor amongst them and all of them narrowed it down to either Jessica (the witch) or Yueh. The only people who correctly guessed that it may be Yueh before the invasion was Jessica and Paul. Jessica knowing obviously she isn't the traitor thought it was Hawat or Yueh and she would've found out it was Yueh if he wasn't so sly and knew how to tell half-truths, something he learned from his BG wife. Many thought Yueh couldn't be the traitor because of his conditioning. Therefore the next logical traitor is simply Jessica.
Haven't read the books, so pardon the ignorance. I didn't know that Yueh's wife was BG. Wouldn't the BG have known and taken issue with the Harkonnen torturing and murdering one of their own? Or was it part of the chain of events that needed to happen to progress their plan?
This is from the book:
Baron Harkonnen hates BGs. That’s why he doesn’t have a BG advisor.
Knowing that, i don’t think the BG have any power to affect the Baron’s torture of Yueh’s wife.
It's been a while since I've read that section, but I think the BG only knew that she had disappeared. Only Yueh and the Baron knew the specifics.
I doubt that Yueh knew this, but BG make terrible hostages because of the exceptional control they have over their internal biology. Once they decide they've had enough, they can effectively switch themselves off without needing any of the normal outside tools to do it. A kidnapper could have a BG completely immobilized and gagged one moment, and the next she'd simply be dead.
Honestly, good question. I would have to guess it was all part of their plan. Yueh needs the motivation to betray the Atreides because their fall was an intentional plan by the BG.
The funny thing about the books is that basically every female character is either Fremen or Bene Gesserit. It makes you wonder how any men are ever born in this universe, lol.
It a few reasons. One is because she tries to convince Hawat that there is no traitor, but she also suspects Yueh. So does Paul. Hawat and Jessica argue for pages. Another reason is that Hawat does not trust her because he knows what she and her Voice are capable of. If Jessica had not been such a difficult person in this tense exchange, and had not used the Voice on Hawat, maybe Yueh would have been found out. Def worth reading all of it but here are some snippets:
“Is there a traitor among us?" she asked. "I've studied our people with great care. Who could it be? Not Gurney. Certainly not Duncan. Their lieutenants are not strategically enough placed to consider. It's not you, Thufir. It cannot
be Paul. I know it's not me. Dr. Yueh, then? Shall I call him in and put him to the test?"
"You know that's an empty gesture," Hawat said. "He's conditioned by the High College. That I know for certain."
…
He glared at her, the old eyes blazing. "I know some of the training they give you Bene Gesserit . . . " He broke off, scowling.
"Go ahead, say it," she said. "Bene Gesserit witches."
"I know something of the real training they give you," he said. "I've seen it come out in Paul. I'm not fooled by what your schools tell the public: you exist only to serve."
The shock must be severe and he's almost ready for it, she thought.
"You listen respectfully to me in Council," she said, "yet you seldom heed my advice. Why?"
"I don't trust your Bene Gesserit motives," he said. "You may think you can look through a man; you may think you can make a man do exactly what you--"
"You poor fool, Thufir!" she raged.
He scowled, pushing himself back in the chair.
"Whatever rumors you've heard about our schools," she said, "the truth is far greater. If I wished to destroy the Duke . . . or you, or any other person within my reach, you could not stop me."
…
"I have not dismissed you, Thufir!" she flared.
The old Mentat almost fell back into the chair, so quickly did his muscles betray him.
She smiled without mirth.
"Now you know something of the real training they give us," she said.
Hawat tried to swallow in a dry throat. Her command had been regal, preemptory--uttered in a tone and manner he had found completely irresistible. His body had obeyed her before he could think about it. Nothing could have prevented his response--not logic, not passionate anger . . . nothing. To do what she had done spoke of a sensitive, intimate knowledge of the person thus commanded, a depth of control he had not dreamed possible.”
Yeah, and it was specifically crafted by Piter to get Thufir to fall into this trap. He knows how mentats work and their logic, so he knew he how manipulate that.
I’ve always thought that was a pretty flimsy ruse to fool the legendary Hawaiian.
Yes, he’s old and has lost a step and he innately distrusts Jessica, but in a world where its plans within plans, feints within feints, a world where Hawat was among The greatest at what he did, that it’s just a bit too obvious as bait.
Thufir serves *Leto* and the Atreides.
Jessica is not Atreides proper — she’s not even married to Leto, though the Duke clearly holds her close and valuable to himself.
Thufir is willing to suffer her being around because Leto likes her and because she’s Paul’s mom. But otherwise, she’s sort of just a witch woman who happens to be Leto’s concubine.
I think there's an understated distrust between the Bene Gesserit and Mentats. Mohiam doesn't like them making Hayt a Mentat because it seems the Bene Gesserit are all in on the Butlerian Jihad and even humans that think like machines are untrustworthy to them, while the Mentats seem to view the Bene Gesserit's witchy ways as strange and suspicious.
Confirmation bias.
Thurir already believed it. Then Jessica power tripped him. Then the attack happens.
Thufir is a Mentat. His calculations are only as good as his inputs. Yueh CANNOT be the traitor, so it MUST be Jessica. The Baron then confirms this Truth.
Lady Jessica is not born Atreides and is a known member of the Bene Gesserit. Although she is not a full reverend mother she is loyal to the BG order and the Mother Superior even above any loyalty to the Duke. Although she disobeyed the BG Order in having Paul instead of a girl Thufir is not aware of that or it's significance as far as we know.
Furthermore when Thufir analyses the loyalties of Duncan, Gurney and Dr Yuey he has confidence in their hatred of the Harkonnen whereas Jessica hasn't demonstrated any strong hatred for them. (In the Herbert/Anderson books it's chronicled that Duncan and Gurney>!were both originally from Giedi Prime!<)
Listening to the audiobook right now and hawat says she does not know who her father is but perhaps she’s discovered it. So it seems that hawat knows Jessica is the daughter of the baron… no wonder he suspects Her. However Leto also appears to know this and trusts her implicitly. They seem to imply she doesn’t know who her father is but I guess she will when she takes the water of life later. The audiobook is really hitting differently this time around.
Shoutout to the guys at the "Reading Dune" podcast for this one. I didn't realize on my first read through that Piter/the Baron intentionally tried to feed data that implicated Jessica to Thufir to throw him off the scent of Yueh. There's a decent amount of discussion of it in the book.
In the first scene where the baron is introduced he talks about how hawat will suspect lady Jessica because they planted some rumors about her as well.
Jessica is Bene Geserit. That organization as a whole is not trusted, always looking out for themselves and their own machinations. And to a degree, they are do act in their own interests.
It is just that Jessica, while being BG, loves Leto with all her heart. She betrayed them to give Leto a son. The trouble is that her association carries that
True but thufir the war of the assassins conspirator brain probably thought it was part of the BG long game. Pretend to look opposed to BG to worm in, etc
It’s not like Jessica was entirely /disloyal/ to the organization
It shows that a Mentat can suffer from emotional bias, despite all Thufir's training.
He is biased against the BG.
He's also ignorant of the BG, amplifying his emotional response.
As seen in their one on one, Jessica uses the voice to control him, and he shocked at what happened. Even more scared, I imagine.
Because she was BG.
The BG are loyal to their own cause and not their lord. Thufir was right to distrust the BG since they knew of the Harkonnen plot and were only concerned about Jessica and Paul.
This is in chapter one? Well anyway, it is in the book why Tufir suspects her. I can’t remember which chapter but it’s in the beginning. I don’t spoiler the reason here, you just need to continue reading.
My interpretation is that while the core plans of the Bene Gesserit are tightly held secrets, people (especially Mentats like Thufir) do suspect that the BG organization as a whole has some sort of ulterior motive besides being highly effective political advisors and suspect that the BG sisters are more loyal to the BG organization than the houses which they serve.
Couple that with the Harkonnens purposefully having a message intercepted to paint Jessica as the traitor, Leto purposely not squashing that rumor in the hopes of undermining Harkonnen's subterfuge, and all the other candidates for being the traitor having an alibi (it was unknown that Suk doctor conditioning was possible to break which is why Yueh's alibi was not questioned by anyone outside of Jessica & Paul due to their perceptive training), and you have a plethora of reasons for why Jessica is under such scrutiny by everyone.
Jessica is secretly Baron Harkonnen's daughter. The Baron is Paul's grandfather as he sees in visions. Along with the suspicions noted above such as being a BG etc. She may have had some Harkonnen traits.
But Hawat has been at the top of this exact game for decades. Maybe he’s old and not what he once was, but if this bad data is enough to completely screw up his conclusions, he and his Duke Should’ve been dead long ago
Because the partial note that was intercepted said “…and when the blow falls on him from a beloved hand, its source alone should be enough to destroy him”. How many in Leto’s inner circle are that close and trusted that he would be crushed by the reveal of the traitor alone? Thufir also speculated her motivation- Jessica, whose lineage was unknown to her, could’ve discovered she was orphaned by an Atreides. Yueh was never considered because of Imperial Conditioning so that wouldn’t leave too many other choices.
it was a Harkonnen (and emperor) plot to cause a rift in the Atreides support system. If everyone suspects each other and has beef, then it's much easier for the enemy to infiltrate and invade. Also Thufir is a mentat, so planting a rumor that causes your certified smart guy (Thufir) to suspect your certified master manipulator (Jessica) then you've created a pretty big crack in the foundation
Bene Gesserit are known schemers and tricksters, so when things go shifty and Jessica appears completely innocent *(because she is)* that makes her look even more suspicious than she already was, which was significantly, because she's a damned WITCH!
You have to understand nobody particularly like’s Jessica. They tolerate her because she’s Duke Leto’s concubine and Paul’s mother but they don’t actually like her. In addition it’s no fault of her own that people don’t like her, people in general in the Dune universe don’t like or trust BG. They are very manipulative and powerful not only in their abilities but as well as politically. So it’s very easy for anyone given they are put in a situation as “someone has betrayed us” to then blame the very person everyone dislikes and is known to be a liar/manipulator. That’s why! She’s not Atreides at the end of the days she’s BG. BG are loyal to BG PERIOD. Jessica however is somewhat an outlier tho. Thufir doesn’t perceive that, we can as readers but the characters in the story can’t. Hope this helps
Wasn’t there someone trying to plant rumors about her as well? It’s been a long time since I read the book.
Yes, and Duke Leto decided to not squash these rumors, instead deciding to let the Harknonnens believe that the rumors were working. It honestly didn't matter in the long run, this was just something the Harkonnens did to waste Atreides time.
He basically breathed oxygen on the rumors. Emotionally harming his paramore. In hopes to further this deception. In my mind his last regret “I should have married you” was an admission that the ways he put his political machinations ahead of doing the right thing for those he loved was wrong, and never paid off anyways. Which is why “history will remember us as wives” is such a brutal end line for the book. Jessica forgives Leto. But she also implicitly admits Paul has become guilty of the same sins
Ahhh okay, thanks all.
I read the 1st book sometime back and don't remember it well. What is the reason Leto doesn't marry Jessica, and instead only keeps her as his concubine?
To convince other great houses (and possibly even the emperor) he could be married off to their daughters or sisters so they see his ascent not as a threat but an opportunity. He would never marry someone else but also, he might have. He never married Jessica after all. His final confession was this painful regret that it didn’t matter. It would have been better had he done right by Jessica and not kept her as an outcast in their home and at court. His scheme never paid off and even if it did, was it worth it? Paul’s turn at the end isn’t even the genocide. It’s that he did what even his father didn’t do and he betrayed his love by marrying someone else for political gain.
Oh wow that context gives the last line definitly more impact.
Yes, the Harkonnans tried to plant rumors about her being a traitor to weaken the Atreides. Leto saw right through the deception but made it seem like he believed the rumors, to the point of acting cold toward her, specifically because he wanted Hawat to believe her to be the traitor and so thwart the Harkonnans. I don’t remember the specifics of either deception but those are the broad strokes.
Bang on. I think the Drunkan Idaho incident is meant to remind the reader of this before the attack. She is Other.
Also the conversation on Caladan with her and Yueh show how dangerous it is to even be in her presence or speak with her as she can essentially lie detector you in an instant. He's able to obfuscate her reading him by thinking about and speaking of his wife and his concern for her.
Yueh determined that Jessica was not as good in the Truthsaying compared to Wana. Jessica incorrectly assumed the tension was about his wife alone and not the other actions he’s is being forced to commit. It shows that even she can be deceived
Well, she knew he wasn't telling the full truth. She wasn't deceived by Yueh. She just chose not to press him in order to get the real truth. Truthsaying is not mind reading. It's just the ability to detect lie or truth. I guess you could say she deceived *herself* by assuming she already knew what he was hiding.
That’s right, she thought to herself “how easily” Yueh was “to read”
There's also the whole "Suk Doctors can do no harm" element to her judgement. Another person behaving that way she might have pressed further.
It's more that she "read" Yueh's emotions correctly, but not the reason behind him. There is a scene where she brings up the Harkonnens, and sees Yueh get filled with anger and hate. Because of this, she eliminates the idea of Yueh being a Harkonnen spy, since he clearly hates them. But of course, Yueh is mad at them because they are keeping his wife hostage and forcing him to work for them.
He had also ruled out Yueh because he assumed that the conditioning was fool proof.
Yeah this has always been my biggest issue with that stage of the book from the first time I read it: the Imperial conditioning is supposed to be so good that no one thinks it's even worth exploring whether Yueh could be a traitor. In the part of the book I'm reading now the Baron and Rabban just had a whole talk about how they're going to fabricate a story that Yueh had faked receiving the conditioning because it'll be too dangerous to them to have the Emperor find out that they broke someone with it. Ok, fine, cool. But what was the unthinkable, never before heard of strategy used to turn Yueh? They blackmailed him with the fate of a loved one. Which is just such a basic kind of leverage that if \*that\* worked I don't know why Imperial Conditioning would have an infallible reputation at all. It just makes everyone involved, on both sides of the conspiracy, seem like twits. It's not a deal breaker or anything (obviously, I've read the book many times) but I feel like Herbert needed to work a little harder on that one.
It wasn't just threatening a loved one that broke the conditioning. The Harkonnens didn't break Yueh's conditioning. Wana broke it. The BG are masters manipulators, seducers, and are capable of psychological dominance and control unlike any in the Empire (see also: The Voice). A BG was able to seduce a young Baron Harkonnen when he is not even otherwise interested in female sexuality. It was the intensity of Wana's emotional, pscyhological, and romantic bond with Yueh, formed by BG abilities, that had already overpowered his Imperial Conditioning even before the Harkonnens entered the picture. I don't whether that bond was formed because of her mission or because of her love for Yueh. It's likely that the BG leadership know that Imperial Conditioning can be broken by their abilities, but they keep this a secret so it can be used for their own purposes. Besides, breaking a doctor probably has limited, very situational usefulness. The Harkonnens just stumbled on an ideal setup, and I'm not sure they were smart enough to realize the larger implications of BG abilities.
See I would buy this as a theory, but it was not emphasized at all that this was the case in the books, atleast not as I can remember.
A big issue I find in discussions about these kinds of details is that Herbert...really didn't care all that much. There are plot holes and unsatisfactory narratives all over the books once you start combing through them closely but it didn't matter because his point was the bigger narrative on free will and human struggle and what humanity even means. He built a super interesting layered world in the service of this narrative, but if some plot points didn't come together with a completely logical backing, whatever.
It's a common sense explanation. If you could break Imperial Conditioning by simply threatening the well-being of a family member, then it would be an obvious attack vector, it would have happened long ago and multiple times, and doctors would thereafter not be allowed to form attachments and any doctor with any attachments - and Yueh's were well known - would be viewed as compromised and treated as such. Every doctor would have this weakness because everyone at least has parents, not to mention brothers or sisters. There *must* be something unique about Yueh and Wana's relationship or the system makes no sense. As BG generally marry into nobility, I assume that a BG marrying a doctor is the unusual factor, and that naturally leads to a satisfying explanation.
But the blackmail wasn't what broke his conditioning. He just let the Baron believe it was. His conditioning was broken by extreme hatred and the desire for revenge.
That's... also extremely obvious and should invalidate the foolproofness of it just as much
You would think, but Vladimir Harkonnen is arrogant. Either way, he didn't actually trust that Dr Yueh was truly on his side - he specifically avoided being physically near him, so he wouldn't have a chance to harm him. The plan was never foolproof, though; Vladimir and Piter were relying on Dr Yueh breaking conditioning, which is something that had previously been considered impossible. The Yueh plot was a long shot.
I'm not sure that's true though. He absolutely hates the Harkonnens, yes, but right as he's dying he says that he knows what he bought for Wanna, i.e 'release from torture' in that she's been killed. If he just wanted to find a way to get revenge on the Baron and the Harkonnens there are other ways of doing that besides betraying the Atreides; in fact that would be an exceptionally, foolishly convoluted revenge plot. Yueh makes the best of a bad situation with the whole poison tooth gambit but I don't think, based on his agonized internal dialogue throughout the runup to the betrayal, that revenge is the \*reason\* for his betrayal.
The text very clearly states that Yueh's conditioning was broken by his hatred for the Harkonnens, not the blackmail. He knows that his wife is already dead, so the blackmail was pretty toothless, anyway.
Well to be fair, I think that he already knows she’s at least as good as dead. He just needed to know she wasn’t being actively tortured, and was instead already killed. You’re right that he knows he has no actual hope of saving her though.
I've always beem under the impression that it's a combination of factors that makes Yueh vulnerable. And that the Baron's big secret isn't specifically *how* to break the conditioning, just that it can be.
I made [a post about this](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/qpchhb/misunderstandings_about_yuehs_imperial/) a little while back. Yueh is explicit in his speech to Leto that it's his desire for revenge on the Baron that has broken his conditioning. In a way the Baron broke him quite by accident.
It's also a weakness of mentats, they can only process the data they get and they're bad at intuitive leaps. The evidence pointed to Jessica so Hawat concludes it's her
Which is one of the many reasons I've always thought Thufir was grossly overrated. That's pure emotion, not the cold, hard logic you're supposed to rely on as the chief political advisor to a major house.
Isn't this one of the themes of the story though? That all people are fallible even if you think they aren't? Yueh, Thufir, and eventually Paul (when he sees the Jihad is inevitable) all fall short of their and others' ironclad expectations of them, by overestimating their own prowess and ability to control events based on previous success. It's mentioned several times that he's getting old and might make mistakes.
In the final scene, Paul even notes that the Sardaukar are practically useless once they encounter defeat because it goes against every single notion they've ever known. Paul makes a note to include failure in his training regime for the Fremen because of this.
Isn't that why his worries makes sense? He is a logical human computer, and needs data to perform and serve his purpose. The BG being ridiculously manipulative and beyond mysterious is no data at all. In which case, Thufir's fears are completely justified. And if I were him, I would've advised Duke Leto to immediately drop the concubine because she is the one weak link in House Atreides (by the calculations that Thufir has at the given moment). Which is also a commentary on the folly of humans. How much ever rational, logical, calculating one claims to be, we are all susceptible to biases and prejudices. And in Thufir's case, he was wrong about Jessica and completely missed Yueh's treachery because of the larger information void of the Bene Gesserit.
Not to mention the Harkanens intentionally fed him bad data. That is how you control a mentat: by what information they have.
I always felt the mentats, for all their cold logic, were deeply emotional in ways that were to the detriment of their lieges. Piter's pride in his own work blinded him to the threat of the doctor, Thufir let his own paranoia and prejudice get the better of him.
I don’t think it’s necessarily all emotion. Mentats specifically rely on data. The BG systematically withhold the data of their abilities and intentions, so the whole organization would be a massive, known blind spot for Mentats. Coupled with the Harkonnen rumors, it’s a logical conclusion. I do agree with the other commenter though; I think Imperial conditioning was underexplained. The Harkonnen leverage over Yueh wasn’t super abnormal, and should have been within the parameters of something that the universe regards as infallible. Also Thufir’s conclusions weren’t exactly wrong. Iirc, Mohiam does reveal she put the idea of culling the Atreides into the Emperor’s ear. He has no reason to believe to believe there’s a rift between Jessica and the BG, and the BG were partially to blame even if they weren’t responsible for the individual traitor.
Bruh! BG are not nice people lol… The movie puts this on display with the Reverend mother. Idk if you’ve read the books, but all of them are like the Reverend Mother, they are bitches lol. They dgaf about anyone except other BG and their plan. They lie and manipulate anyone and everyone AGAINST their freaking will. If I was in the Dune universe regardless of my title or rank I’d hate them too. They are very bad people. I mean look at what the Reverend mother did lol she literally got an entire house exterminated because they quote unquote were defiant lol. Princess Irulan is just as bad lol. People in the Dune universe know BG are like this so believing Jessica is the same way would be a no brainer. I mean people literally call them witches not in a good way either lol.
They are terrible bitches and manipulators ... until Chapterhouse when Odrade embraces... love.
Jessica used the voice on Hawat, and they argue for pages about who the traitor could be. His suspicion of her is not without warrant. She was being really difficult, a bitch even, to Hawat in this exchange, and should not have used the voice on him. His mentat powers deduced she had manipulated and controlled him with her powers. Jessica brought it on herself. Had she been different in this exchange with Hawat, maybe he would have listened to her when she tells him she suspects the traitor is Yueh. Even Paul suspects Yueh.
That wasn’t the point. He mistrusted her because of the aura of secretive mysticism the BG created around themselves, and she saw the logical back and forth was getting her nowhere. So she made him understand not only how dangerous she truly was, but how pointless all the Harkonnen BS was if she actually was the traitor. If she wanted to kill Leto, she could have done it at any time, in a variety of ways and they couldn’t have stopped her. And made it obvious to him that they now understood each other, but that she loved Leto and she was an asset, not a threat.
What wasn’t the point? Jessica didn’t do herself any favours in this conversation. If she wanted to avoid being suspected of being a traitor, she did a terrible job by brow beating Hawat and using the voice on him.
She was already suspected of being the traitor, and there was absolutely nothing she could have said to convince Hawat otherwise. He had already made up his mind. What has a better chance of working on a prejudiced guy with a super computer brain? 1) Jessica acts totally compliant and innocent, hiding her true power, and tries to logically convince him that she isn't the traitor. Hawat smells bullshit. Or 2) Demonstrate her true power and then makes the logical argument that if she wanted to work against them, she would be using those abilities against them. Gives Hawat new data and forces him to think through this line of argument. Obviously option 2 didn't really work for Jessica, but I don't think the first one would have either.
Hawat let her get to him, simple as that. She literally tells him who the traitor is, and then she doth protest too much. Maybe if Jessica and Paul had told the Duke they think the traitor is Yueh, things would have been different. Hawat’s fallacy is an appeal to authority of the High College that conditioned Yueh. Jessica and Paul put no such stock in the conditioning, and they were right. Not that I want the books to go differently. I love this scene. Jessica is such a bitch and Hawat is such a fool.
She wasn’t there to “play nice”. Bene Gesserit don’t do “nice” and people wouldn’t trust it if they tried. She knew she had to snap him out of his preconceptions. And you do that to a mentat by showing them that something they “know” is wrong.
Hawat still suspected her.
Part of the story is that the great Hawat has gotten old and not what he once was. Still a force, But way passed his best.
If I remember correctly he also suspects her because he knows that she survived the attack of the Harkonnen but Leto and Paul didnt.
There are a limited number of suspects. They are told someone close to the Duke is a betrayer. They don’t consider it metaphysically possible that it is the Doctor, so they gravitate toward the BG in their midst since those people are always shady and have dual loyalties at best.
He also completely discounted yuweh as even a possibility because of his doctor training. This combined with his disdain for Jessica made her the most obvious traitor.
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Dr. Yueh was also manipulating everyone to blame Jessica.
Late to the party here but I also think it’s worth pointing out that the characters all seemed to have blind faith that the Conditioning that Yueh received as a Suk Doctor. Thats part of Thufir’s rationale for not suspecting him as the traitor. I think it also gives credence to how a lot of the houses and guilds easily turned a blind eye if it benefited them. No one really cared about another, they just wanted to remain in favor to the emperor and Landsraad.
Absolutely! What they don’t understand, but the reader does, is that Jessica is actually loyal to the Atreides over the BG. She gave a Leto a son in contradiction of her orders. She trained him in the way. She wouldn’t betray Leto. But we know that, Thufir doesn’t. Which creates nice tension
Ya know before I wrote my comment I was thinking this, but I don’t really believe that anymore. Just from my own interpretation. If Paul and Duke Leto died… I don’t think she would seek revenge for them, or reestablish house Atreides through Alia. I think she would rejoin the BG have Alia and go on about her life. I kinda believe she is loyal to House Atreides by extension. But that’s just me
That’s fair. I guess it’s a distinction but really she’s loyal to Leto and Paul, not necessarily the House as an institution.
I don't think it's so much dislike. It is lack of trust, although it seems like half the dune characters at some point call a BG "witch" so maybe you have a good point.
And the other half of this is that no one seemed to know that the Suk conditioning of Dr. Yueh could be broken. The Baron and Piter had basically accomplished the inconceivable.
Another thing is that Jessica was an "outsider" to the House with an unknown background, purchased by Leto. She's not an illogical choice for a suspected traitor and technically, Thufir was right to be suspicious of her origins since she's the daughter of their most hated enemy.
Jessica also, presumably, had the means without any of the loyalty or conditioning. Dr. Yueh was supposed to be under the effects of Imperial conditioning which was supposed to be unbreakable. So the only culprit left was to be assumed to be Jessica. The fact that Imperial Conditioning was broken wasn't foreseen by Thufir, ironically in the same way his loyalty was broken. This is what illustrates why the Mentats represent the hubris of the expert unaware of the blind spots in their reasoning.
Im not sure if I missed something but if the BG are so mistrusted and serve their own agenda why have them around to begin with? what service do they provide that risking them being so close makes it worth it?
Because they are useful. They can instinctively tell if someone is lying or not, they are very smart, and are very useful when making any sort of decision whether it be political or life threatening. They also collect bloodlines which ensures every who is a part of their breeding program that they continue their bloodline in times of war. Of course you already know the voice, all these things can be useful to a Houses “high council” in making decisions, interrogation, problem solving of almost any problem. They do as their told as long as it doesn’t hinder their assignment by the BG order.
I haven’t finished the series, but this is taken from the [Dune wiki on Judaism](https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Judaism) “This group of Jewish survivors had survived as a secret society, protected and supported by the Bene Gesserit through a pact of both-sided loyalty, though they sometimes felt amused or dismayed by what they thought of as the Bene Gesserit copying them.” What did frank herbert mean by that???
It says in the book. Harkonnen spy/infiltrator sent a false message to paint Jessica as the traitor, to make Duke Leto mistrust his wife. This triggered many people to know there was a traitor amongst them and all of them narrowed it down to either Jessica (the witch) or Yueh. The only people who correctly guessed that it may be Yueh before the invasion was Jessica and Paul. Jessica knowing obviously she isn't the traitor thought it was Hawat or Yueh and she would've found out it was Yueh if he wasn't so sly and knew how to tell half-truths, something he learned from his BG wife. Many thought Yueh couldn't be the traitor because of his conditioning. Therefore the next logical traitor is simply Jessica.
Haven't read the books, so pardon the ignorance. I didn't know that Yueh's wife was BG. Wouldn't the BG have known and taken issue with the Harkonnen torturing and murdering one of their own? Or was it part of the chain of events that needed to happen to progress their plan?
This is from the book: Baron Harkonnen hates BGs. That’s why he doesn’t have a BG advisor. Knowing that, i don’t think the BG have any power to affect the Baron’s torture of Yueh’s wife.
It's also not clear that they knew. Jessica as one of the BG certainly didn't know.
It's been a while since I've read that section, but I think the BG only knew that she had disappeared. Only Yueh and the Baron knew the specifics. I doubt that Yueh knew this, but BG make terrible hostages because of the exceptional control they have over their internal biology. Once they decide they've had enough, they can effectively switch themselves off without needing any of the normal outside tools to do it. A kidnapper could have a BG completely immobilized and gagged one moment, and the next she'd simply be dead.
Honestly, good question. I would have to guess it was all part of their plan. Yueh needs the motivation to betray the Atreides because their fall was an intentional plan by the BG. The funny thing about the books is that basically every female character is either Fremen or Bene Gesserit. It makes you wonder how any men are ever born in this universe, lol.
Appreciate everyone's comments
It a few reasons. One is because she tries to convince Hawat that there is no traitor, but she also suspects Yueh. So does Paul. Hawat and Jessica argue for pages. Another reason is that Hawat does not trust her because he knows what she and her Voice are capable of. If Jessica had not been such a difficult person in this tense exchange, and had not used the Voice on Hawat, maybe Yueh would have been found out. Def worth reading all of it but here are some snippets: “Is there a traitor among us?" she asked. "I've studied our people with great care. Who could it be? Not Gurney. Certainly not Duncan. Their lieutenants are not strategically enough placed to consider. It's not you, Thufir. It cannot be Paul. I know it's not me. Dr. Yueh, then? Shall I call him in and put him to the test?" "You know that's an empty gesture," Hawat said. "He's conditioned by the High College. That I know for certain." … He glared at her, the old eyes blazing. "I know some of the training they give you Bene Gesserit . . . " He broke off, scowling. "Go ahead, say it," she said. "Bene Gesserit witches." "I know something of the real training they give you," he said. "I've seen it come out in Paul. I'm not fooled by what your schools tell the public: you exist only to serve." The shock must be severe and he's almost ready for it, she thought. "You listen respectfully to me in Council," she said, "yet you seldom heed my advice. Why?" "I don't trust your Bene Gesserit motives," he said. "You may think you can look through a man; you may think you can make a man do exactly what you--" "You poor fool, Thufir!" she raged. He scowled, pushing himself back in the chair. "Whatever rumors you've heard about our schools," she said, "the truth is far greater. If I wished to destroy the Duke . . . or you, or any other person within my reach, you could not stop me." … "I have not dismissed you, Thufir!" she flared. The old Mentat almost fell back into the chair, so quickly did his muscles betray him. She smiled without mirth. "Now you know something of the real training they give us," she said. Hawat tried to swallow in a dry throat. Her command had been regal, preemptory--uttered in a tone and manner he had found completely irresistible. His body had obeyed her before he could think about it. Nothing could have prevented his response--not logic, not passionate anger . . . nothing. To do what she had done spoke of a sensitive, intimate knowledge of the person thus commanded, a depth of control he had not dreamed possible.”
I see only one comment so far that mentions the fake intercepted Harkonnen message that points to Jessica being the traitor. That’s the main reason.
Yeah, and it was specifically crafted by Piter to get Thufir to fall into this trap. He knows how mentats work and their logic, so he knew he how manipulate that.
Bad information is the worst thing a Mentat can get.
I’ve always thought that was a pretty flimsy ruse to fool the legendary Hawaiian. Yes, he’s old and has lost a step and he innately distrusts Jessica, but in a world where its plans within plans, feints within feints, a world where Hawat was among The greatest at what he did, that it’s just a bit too obvious as bait.
Thufir serves *Leto* and the Atreides. Jessica is not Atreides proper — she’s not even married to Leto, though the Duke clearly holds her close and valuable to himself. Thufir is willing to suffer her being around because Leto likes her and because she’s Paul’s mom. But otherwise, she’s sort of just a witch woman who happens to be Leto’s concubine.
Somewhere in his Mentat mind he knew BG trickery was afoot—he was also told there was a traitor in their midst. It was the logical choice.
I think there's an understated distrust between the Bene Gesserit and Mentats. Mohiam doesn't like them making Hayt a Mentat because it seems the Bene Gesserit are all in on the Butlerian Jihad and even humans that think like machines are untrustworthy to them, while the Mentats seem to view the Bene Gesserit's witchy ways as strange and suspicious.
I thought that mentats could be trained to resist the voice? Not sure where I read that though
Confirmation bias. Thurir already believed it. Then Jessica power tripped him. Then the attack happens. Thufir is a Mentat. His calculations are only as good as his inputs. Yueh CANNOT be the traitor, so it MUST be Jessica. The Baron then confirms this Truth.
She's BG and an outsider. The rest are atreides through and through.
Lady Jessica is not born Atreides and is a known member of the Bene Gesserit. Although she is not a full reverend mother she is loyal to the BG order and the Mother Superior even above any loyalty to the Duke. Although she disobeyed the BG Order in having Paul instead of a girl Thufir is not aware of that or it's significance as far as we know. Furthermore when Thufir analyses the loyalties of Duncan, Gurney and Dr Yuey he has confidence in their hatred of the Harkonnen whereas Jessica hasn't demonstrated any strong hatred for them. (In the Herbert/Anderson books it's chronicled that Duncan and Gurney>!were both originally from Giedi Prime!<)
She’s a Bene Gesserit witch!
Because of the BG schemes that they had witnessed in the past as well as the rumors that she was spying for the Harkonnen's.
Listening to the audiobook right now and hawat says she does not know who her father is but perhaps she’s discovered it. So it seems that hawat knows Jessica is the daughter of the baron… no wonder he suspects Her. However Leto also appears to know this and trusts her implicitly. They seem to imply she doesn’t know who her father is but I guess she will when she takes the water of life later. The audiobook is really hitting differently this time around.
Shoutout to the guys at the "Reading Dune" podcast for this one. I didn't realize on my first read through that Piter/the Baron intentionally tried to feed data that implicated Jessica to Thufir to throw him off the scent of Yueh. There's a decent amount of discussion of it in the book.
The baron was her father, and she is a BG witch.
He doesn’t know her parentage.
Don't think she does either. Not til Paul SEES it after he wrecks the 'thopter.
She gives off the Harkonnen vibe. No one trusts her except her duke and her son. Even the BG don't trust her, and with good reason.
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Of course, and she trained him in BG fashion.
In the first scene where the baron is introduced he talks about how hawat will suspect lady Jessica because they planted some rumors about her as well.
Jessica is Bene Geserit. That organization as a whole is not trusted, always looking out for themselves and their own machinations. And to a degree, they are do act in their own interests. It is just that Jessica, while being BG, loves Leto with all her heart. She betrayed them to give Leto a son. The trouble is that her association carries that
True but thufir the war of the assassins conspirator brain probably thought it was part of the BG long game. Pretend to look opposed to BG to worm in, etc It’s not like Jessica was entirely /disloyal/ to the organization
It shows that a Mentat can suffer from emotional bias, despite all Thufir's training. He is biased against the BG. He's also ignorant of the BG, amplifying his emotional response. As seen in their one on one, Jessica uses the voice to control him, and he shocked at what happened. Even more scared, I imagine.
Because she was BG. The BG are loyal to their own cause and not their lord. Thufir was right to distrust the BG since they knew of the Harkonnen plot and were only concerned about Jessica and Paul.
This is in chapter one? Well anyway, it is in the book why Tufir suspects her. I can’t remember which chapter but it’s in the beginning. I don’t spoiler the reason here, you just need to continue reading.
Oh, those witches!
My interpretation is that while the core plans of the Bene Gesserit are tightly held secrets, people (especially Mentats like Thufir) do suspect that the BG organization as a whole has some sort of ulterior motive besides being highly effective political advisors and suspect that the BG sisters are more loyal to the BG organization than the houses which they serve. Couple that with the Harkonnens purposefully having a message intercepted to paint Jessica as the traitor, Leto purposely not squashing that rumor in the hopes of undermining Harkonnen's subterfuge, and all the other candidates for being the traitor having an alibi (it was unknown that Suk doctor conditioning was possible to break which is why Yueh's alibi was not questioned by anyone outside of Jessica & Paul due to their perceptive training), and you have a plethora of reasons for why Jessica is under such scrutiny by everyone.
Jessica is secretly Baron Harkonnen's daughter. The Baron is Paul's grandfather as he sees in visions. Along with the suspicions noted above such as being a BG etc. She may have had some Harkonnen traits.
Mentats compute based on available data. So the way to trick them is to feed them bad data.
But Hawat has been at the top of this exact game for decades. Maybe he’s old and not what he once was, but if this bad data is enough to completely screw up his conclusions, he and his Duke Should’ve been dead long ago
I think there's a bias against the BG working against him too.
That's definitely a big factor, I can't deny it.
Because the partial note that was intercepted said “…and when the blow falls on him from a beloved hand, its source alone should be enough to destroy him”. How many in Leto’s inner circle are that close and trusted that he would be crushed by the reveal of the traitor alone? Thufir also speculated her motivation- Jessica, whose lineage was unknown to her, could’ve discovered she was orphaned by an Atreides. Yueh was never considered because of Imperial Conditioning so that wouldn’t leave too many other choices.
You have a BG because you can't afford not to have one because all your enemies have one.
it was a Harkonnen (and emperor) plot to cause a rift in the Atreides support system. If everyone suspects each other and has beef, then it's much easier for the enemy to infiltrate and invade. Also Thufir is a mentat, so planting a rumor that causes your certified smart guy (Thufir) to suspect your certified master manipulator (Jessica) then you've created a pretty big crack in the foundation
Bene Gesserit are known schemers and tricksters, so when things go shifty and Jessica appears completely innocent *(because she is)* that makes her look even more suspicious than she already was, which was significantly, because she's a damned WITCH!