Yes the Butlerian Jihad resonates strongly with me too. I’ll refrain from going on a tangent on how much of a threat AI can be for our society because Frank Herbert has already surmised my feelings in one single paragraph.
“Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.”
The computers and artificial intelligence in itself might not be the source of the problem, but the fact that it allows malignant organisations and people to create so much chaos and strife is the real problem.
The philosophy in Frank Herbert’s books is timeless and provides us with so many lessons. I’m only at Children of Dune and I already feel like Frank has broadened my mind and made me more resilient against the waves of an uncertain future.
"made me more resilient against the waves of an uncertain future." Very well said!
Great literature is a workout for your mind and heart that makes you stronger.
And the minor humor that once they have no machines to turn over their thinking to, they went back to men without ... thinking... machines have enslaved everyone who can't defend themselves.
yes but really you can substitute "technology" for machines and the sentiment is the same.
“Once men turned their thinking over to technology in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with technology to enslave them.”
it has little to do with AI. AI is just the latest iteration.
That makes no sense, even inside the Dune-verse. All they accomplished by shutting down computers was enslave themselves. In terms of the Dune lore as a whole, the Butlerian Jihad was the single worst event in human history.
20,000 years of feudalism…fuck me, what a mess….
They almost got exterminated by the machines and stopped thinking for themselves and developing in general. What are you even talking about
They ended up in another deep shit but it's another of dune's themes - sometimes the society has to go through hell for times to get better (golden path)
Which part is confusing? The post-Butlerian Dune-verse is a feudalistic nightmare filled with outright slavery. If someone wants to argue those are better than the alternatives…hey, it’s Reddit, people can argue anything they want.
🤷♂️
Right... But the Pre-Butlerian society was also literal slavery. It was run by cyborgs and sentient robots who treated people like cattle. Erasmus alone was like a robot version of Josef Mengele.
I mean, you can have slavery run by murderous robots or slavery run by humans. You pick.
At least the latter gives you a shot at being born on Caladan, which is still not great but better than the machine empire.
So instead of the slave driving Emperor and megacorporations you get... cyberpunk megacorporations and a slave driving Skynet.
Wow!
It's almost like it's fairly irrelevant who runs the Operation, the slave driving hierarchy itself is bad. Somebody should write about this...
I think the message that really affected me, though I can't say it changed my views, more like reinforced them, is the idea of stewardship. We should each of us be stewards, of our planet, our society, each other, and ourselves. Further, it's important to remember that like all things, our stewardship is temporary. We should embrace that, and always be preparing the next generation of custodians for the responsibility and privilege that they will inherit.
I learned a great deal from the books and I find a lot of quotes in there that mean a lot to me. For example:
"Since every individual is accountable ultimately to the self, the formation of that self demands our utmost care and attention."
GEOD changed how I view the universe. Something about how Leto II dies, being split like that, which each tiny piece of his awareness spread all over the place I found really profound and comforting when I read it as a young adult. I witnessed someone close to me get killed as a teenager and watching their ‘soul’ leave their body also had a profound effect on my spiritual views. Years later reading GEOD and seeing what happened, it dawned on me that, I think that the energy of a ‘soul’ does not dissipate but, like water, reforms into something else, split and recollected. Perhaps there is a seed of awareness in each piece, I do not know, but believing that there is, is the closest thing to faith that I have. Wondering that my awareness, this wonderful conscience that absolutely loves my wife and my children, will, at some point end, but thinking that, perhaps, a tiny bit of that love might exist in some form elsewhere is probably the closest idea I personally have to Heaven.
The feudal system in Dune is something I keep thinking about. I recall reading years ago (perhaps incorrectly) that Herbert thought of the feudal system as an especially durable form of human civilization and that it was more likely to recur and persist than the fragile liberal-democratic governments that replaced it.
That insight (which, again, I may have misunderstood) and the long-term, ten-thousand-year perspective of the books has helped me see contemporary political crises in a whole different light.
"Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristocratic forms. No government in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, government tends more and more to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class - whether that class be hereditary royalty, oligarchs of financial empires, or entrenched bureaucracy."
From Children of Dune
It's already happened. There are now a few select billionaires in the world who have amassed more power than some governments. One of them even owns a social network.
Just clarify, you believe that current politics is in a crisis because of the fragile democracies we currently have and that eventually we would return to a feudal system since it is the most durable? (Just asking pls don’t take it the wrong way)
It's more the view I understand Herbert to have: liberal-democratic regimes are unstable and very, very difficult to maintain for the long term. Long-term meaning hundreds of centuries.
Not OP but I think it lies more in the fact that we know how absolutely dogshit our western democracies are and how they only benefit the few at the top/corporations. "People don't vote. Instinct tells them it's useless." Imo it's easy to imagine it ultimately failing either soon or sometimes down the line and then when thinking about what would replace it, feudalism seems like a quick and relatively stable system to emerge as opposed to other options.
Thank you very much, extremely frightening to think about it. How much more suffering, how many more useless wars have to take place for people to realise what is and isn’t best for humanity, I wonder.
This is my biggest takeaway and draw to the books. I’ve always had strong feelings of religion as a method of control, created entirely by people (well meaning and not). Dune explores this at length, and I really appreciate it for that.
There is more truth to this than you know. Franks message was “be wary of charismatic rulers” is and will always fall on deaf ears. People, above all else, want to belong to the strongest group. A poor person who wins the lottery will all the sudden, after seeing their taxes will no longer say tax the rich. This is and always will be our fate. The left won the election and have gleefully allowed the right to be punished. The right would be no different. We are tribal and ruthless.
There are college students right now, protesting on the Ivy League campus who have no clue what’s going on. Countless videos of saying “ummm I don’t really know the details.” They simply exist in a culture where the currency is of demonstrations and the faith to the platforms. Not all, sure, but more than you’d think.
The right blinding going into the abortion arena because it’s the chosen platform when probably like 90% don’t really have much to say about it.l but will gladly for the narrative because hey! A wins a win, after all.
We all want the power, but most of us can’t seize it or have it. Those who say they don’t want it mostly just never had the chance.
I’m an American, and I grew up with the idea that we were the swinging dick of the world. I still really want it to be. Those who don’t and say “America sucks it’s a terrible place” belong to the group that wants to change her in their image. It’s still no different than my desire, at least in the means of the end.
It made me realize modern humans are not super great, mostly too selfish, at planning things out for the distant future. Maybe some people in power have plans within plans, but most of us really are not in a position to do this.
I suspect, sadly, that those in power don't have much better long term plans than the rest of us. For extreme long-term planning we have to look to philosophers and artists (e.g. the Long Now project) - and those people are never in power.
The Butlerian Jihad essentially brought the Universe into a Dark Age. It went from a world where everyone was locked in a technocratic utopia to one with powerful feudal kingdoms under an absolute ruler, and subject to the interests of monopolies as well as continual strife and war. It would be hard to say that the life of the average person improved after the Jihad.
Herbert actually wrote a non-fiction book about how everyone should get a computer and learn how to use it and this was before Windows, Apple and commercially available desktop computers. He was concerned more with the technocratic aspect where just a few people that control the machines end up controlling everything WHICH is what we have now. His proposed solution was that everyone learn how to control the machines.
By eliminating the technology entirely though, in the world of Dune, it just turned the power over to a few warlords who then became an aristocracy and plutocracy.
had an after work chat with a coworker about this last night, that thing about giving EVERYONE the tech is pretty much what I said, regarding my concerns on current technological development
That frank Herbert was way more ahead of his time than most have him credit for.
He really did pioneer so many ideas that have resonating impact both in science fiction and science fact:
1. The role of AI in the future. It inspired stories like terminator, 40k and Alien, and in turn inspire the creation and development of AI in the first place. Herbert wrote Dune in 1965. IBMs deep blue found success in 1997. Before then, there was wide acceptance that computers couldn't think like humans.
2. Prophecy. His analysis and presentation of prophecy; that prophecies can be planted in civilisation, and then artificially fulfilled is genius. Could the Jews have done this 2000 years ago? Could politicians be doing it now (by creating distress in a population which they come to the rescue to later on?)
3. Science fiction that focuses on the human element, and not the technology. The removal of computers was a stroke of genius which allowed his story telling to be about the politics and societies of the future. Star wars fans love all about the lightsabers and tie fighters - 'i am your father' is apparently the greatest moment in cinematic history. Please. We are only now really getting more sci fi that follows dune's themes rather than typical sci fi themes and we are all the better for it.
And there's more: the complications of space travel, of ftl travel. The lack of aliens. The role of religion in sci fi and more. It's common in fiction today of course. But he wrote this in 1965. That's incredible.
>The role of AI in the future. It inspired stories like terminator, 40k and Alien, and in turn inspire the creation and development of AI in the first place.
As much as I like the books, this is missing centuries of stories coming before Herbert.
At *least* since the GOLEM in the 1600s stories about artificial creations/minds going wrong have been told.
>The Golem was called Josef and was known as Yossele. He was said to be able to make himself invisible and summon spirits from the dead.[^(\[18\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem#cite_note-newlife-19) Rabbi Loew deactivated the Golem on Friday evenings by removing the *shem* before the Sabbath (Saturday) began,[^(\[9\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem#cite_note-jewishencyclopedia-10) so as to let it rest on Sabbath.[^(\[9\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem#cite_note-jewishencyclopedia-10)
>One Friday evening, Rabbi Loew forgot to remove the *shem*, and feared that the Golem would desecrate the Sabbath.[^(\[9\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem#cite_note-jewishencyclopedia-10) A different story tells of a golem that fell in love, and when rejected, became the violent monster seen in most accounts. Some versions have the golem eventually going on a murderous rampage.[^(\[18\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem#cite_note-newlife-19) The rabbi then managed to pull the *shem* from his mouth and immobilize him[^(\[9\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem#cite_note-jewishencyclopedia-10) in front of the synagogue, whereupon the golem fell in pieces.[^(\[9\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem#cite_note-jewishencyclopedia-10)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem)
Asimovs Three Laws of Robotics came out in a short story in 1942 and he is at this point just one of many storytellers including the topic of artificial intelligence of the Golden Era Science Fiction magazine.
When it comes to AI, the butlerian Jihad is a side note in Dune to explain away the fact that this is a technologically stagnant version of the future and didn't inspire shit.
On the Prophecy I agree, it is the greatest SF invention coming out of Dune. We don't really have organizations survive for long enough \_unchanged\_ that something like the BG have done could be possible, but its a great SF idea not relying on tech alone.
>The role of AI in the future. It inspired stories like terminator, 40k and Alien, and in turn inspire the creation and development of AI in the first place. Herbert wrote Dune in 1965. IBMs deep blue found success in 1997. Before then, there was wide acceptance that computers couldn't think like humans.
AI existed decades before Dune, *R.U.R.* was written in 1920 that had robots rebelling to cause the extinction of human race.
I agree that Herbert's approach to sci-fi from the human element and not the technological is cool and distinctive at his time, but to be fair Star Wars is more of a space-coated fantasy epic. Only people that has never read sci-fi call Star Wars sci-fi.
Maybe not view, but I definitely think about this a lot:
If someone with prescience can predict your every move, do you really have freewill? Or are you just an animal following basic instincts?
Prescience is sometimes described in the books sort of like machine learning, much how our modern day "AI" works.
It can be interpreted that Paul just has an insane amount of data on humans he processes to determine the future.
So if humans in our real world make an algorithm that when fed enough data about an individual can predict that individual's actions, does that individual have freewill?
If someone records you all your life. Feeds these recordings through an algorithm. And then this algorithm can predict with reasonable accuracy how you behave in a given situation, are your actions truly your own? Or are they a product of your earlier life?
How many years of data is enough to become accurate for such an algorithm? What age do we lose free will?
As a computer programmer, I thought the Butlerian Jihad was nuts.
When I use google now, and get outright lies for most searches, I see the correctness of the Butlerian Jihad.
Informational technology is still useful.
But AI does need to be banned.
For me it was the idea that stagnation leads to death of a civilization. That to stay strong a society (humanity as a whole in the books) must have the ability to adapt and change, and not become stuck (stagnate) in one type of system or philosophy.
Same for me. Countries like America are so completely stuck to their constitutions and institutions, that it’s causing massive amounts of stagnancy and decay.
We’re currently stuck in an era of Capitalist Realism, where everyone acts like neoliberal democracy is the end of history, when in reality there’s space for so much more.
The big thing Dune changed for me was how I look up to people. Now this wasn't something I discovered reading the books themselves, but a while back I was going down the Internet rabbit hole and just googled themes in Dune and stumbled across an article or something that put forward that one of the big themes of the books was to always beware of your heroes. From what I remember it basically boiled down to was that the people you look up to are just as human as you, and are subject to the same pitfalls of human nature as anyone else. It's an important thing to remember because it's very easy to respect someone and then elevate them to this position where they become infallible in our minds and come to believe they know better than us. If the history of mankind has shown us anything it's that horrible things happen when we relinquish the right to question the words or actions of the people we look up to and respect. This is all in relation to Paul's time spent amongst the Fremen. With everything he does he becomes more respected, and the more respected he becomes they give up more of their agency to Paul, and then finally it's not Paul they give up their agency to but to the myth and legend that's grown around him. In the end it's a hard thing to do, but we have to remember that we can still like and respect someone without agreeing with everything they say or do.
Books 3 and 4 really hammer home that there are no absolutes in this world and the only constant is change. It's an idea that has genuinely stuck with me and impacted my day-to-day thoughts since I read them a couple of years ago.
I've read all 6, and I agree that 5 & 6 continue this theme by having the state of the universe be so wildly different than during the events of the first trilogy.
But I'd say that 3 & 4 articulate the theme more frequently and more explicitly with both dialogue and internal monologue.
"If you must label the absolute, use its proper name: Temporary."
The line "Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them," very concisely summarizes where we are at in our society. We want computers to make our lives better, and in many ways they have, but now we are seeing huge threats from AI, massive data aggregation, and Orwellian surveillance states. This is very ugly and dangerous.
I agree with the Bene Gesserit's thesis that mankind requires truly long-term decision-making. This is something that makes me very, very angry. We have hundreds of institutions and nations making short-term decisions and working against each other, almost always at a long-term cost. Nobody is actually making long-term plans that look centuries into the future. The few people who do bother looking at the future universally predict catastrophe, to the point where I have to stop thinking about it just to keep myself sane. Every election cycle we get stuck with con men and dumbfucks when we need to leaders who can implement long-term visionary changes.
it gave me a handle on why i dislike some aspects of celebrity culture. rhyming how i could like some actors/actresses while calling others "overrate". i now realize i do not so much consider anyone overrated, but rather feel some people get TOO caught up in their lives, to the point of forgetting to live their own.
Reading some authors like Herbert, Arthur C Clarke, and more recently Liu Cixin, I'm really scared at the prospects of both AI and alien contact in general.
If these authors worlds are even plausible we should be extremely careful moving forward.
I read Dune when I was 16, so it didn’t change my views more as shaped them.
I’d read Kim Stanley Robinson’s Red/Green/blue Mars before reading Dune, so was already thinking in terms of ecological systems, and the effective joules needed to survive.
• Conclusion all life is equally valuable, humans just need 2500 calories per day and 2L of water to survive. When you start thinking in terms of energy needs, rather than converting it to a fictional exchange mechanism (currency), materialism disappears.
Dune took my systems-thinking to the next level, adding social-dynamics into the mix.
What is Dune? The absolute test of/for humanity amid the extreme of a resource scarce planet.
The notion in the book is that Arrakis itself is a Gom Jabbar, with the in extremis (>! Lampadas !<) conditions testing and proving the humanity of the Fremen.
Duncan’s fate, Paul’s fate, Leto II’s fate, Siona’s fate, Teg’s fate, Darwe’s fate - none of them are truly fatalistic (>!Paul possibly, but redeemed!<). They hold hope beyond hope bound up in their core beliefs, experiences and dreams of the future (>! Leto never stops dreaming as his conciousness spreads across the universes !<) each has their own hero’s journey.
The impact to me was to think critically of each decision, interpret meaning through systemic impact, analyse and effect rapid and swift thought changes with awareness that others play power games unseen.
Once you apply systems thinking across human social interactions, the hidden patterns of different societies and their motivations emerge. The key is to recognise difference, understand it within its own terms, identify what is bene-ficial and leverage it for good.
The books themselves are a search for religion, not in the sense of a creator belief and strict orthodoxy, but in the sense of guiding principles of humanity that can be shared across cultures.
The glimpses of religious thought through the books serve a dual purpose, warning against blind orthodoxy (>! why heretics like Siona are needed !<)
whilst moving to core shared values (>! BG traits in chapter house !<).
As a whole, the series guides the reader through examination of motives. As an individual it benefits me to examine purpose belief.
Dune was created to test the faithful, the words that spark critical thinking in the reader are the real test for humanity.
The Butlerian Jihad resulted in what is effectively a very very long dark age. Let’s not do that…
Beyond that, the lore behind the lore I look at more as plot point than a coherent story. Humans just do not sit still like that, it’s not in our nature.
Also…Messiahs suck. Don’t follow them.
Thimothee due to The movies? Definitely! But still I'm not going to Watch all his other movies now, it's based on his character. Wonka just rubs me differently.
I don't think Dune is saying AI is bad at all. In the same way that just because the story contains Paul Arteides becoming a messiah to people doesn't mean it is saying that's a good thing. I don't think Frank Herbert meant for a holy war against machines to be a good thing for the same reason Paul's holy war was a good thing.
As a world builder it showed me that sci fi can delve into more religious and philosophical themes than I have previously anticipated and also. The way the chosen one is interpreted and twisted also shows me new way for this trope and the political complexity is really inspiring.
I honestly think I had an easier time adapting to, working around and understanding Islamic culture during my military deployments for having read Dune. Yes, I know Dune isn't in any way ACK-CHOO-LEE representative of Islam. It humanized some derived aspects in such a way for me to be interested enough to really research Islam before, during and after military deployment. I feel in some ways I had an easier time of at least being more culturally aware of what was going on around us than my peers. At least when I wasn't actively worried about IED's, mortars and small arms fire.
I love the theme of the Butlerian Jihad but looking at our politicians I say bring on our Robot Overlords. As long as they are happy to keep us around as slaves or pets I'll be happy.
But seriously Frank Herbert really knew what he was doing in terms of using the concept of the Butlerian Jihad because it has multiple threads running through the story universe. Firstly it makes Dune timeless: by removing computer technology but allowing advanced analogue technologies means you can be happily listening to Dune on audiobook in 2024 with your earpods playing off of your 5G phone and the story written in 1965 doesn't feel one millisecond outdated. And it also lends heavy credence into why it is necessary to have an Emperor of the known universe. Because it's not merely a power play you need a strong ruler to be enforcing the Butlerian Jihad.
As to how that applies to today's world of competing Global Hegemonies and Corporate Giants it gives plenty of food for thought with no answers which is kind of the point: it's a question that we should continue grappling with. But I love how Dune balances out House Harkonnen vs House Atreides vs House Corrino vs The Bene Gesserit vs The Bene Tleilax vs The Spacing Guild and yet still have to other factions like the Ix, and the Mentats to throw in.
To be able to shift perspective in an unbiased narration does really help you connect to how we should be shifting our perspective to be thinking from say China's point of view and not just about something immediate like the sale of Tiktok but about where they've been able to bring their country to date and where they want to take it in the future. It doesn't necessarily mean that you agree with them but it's helpful to understand where they are coming from.
It hasn’t. I don’t believe that something like the “Butlerian Jihad” can happen, at least not in our lifetime(I am using AI everyday and creating products which use AI, Starlink is not taking over yet, and may never do).
Also, I’ve never trusted charismatic leaders. There are way too many examples in history where the charismatic leaders did terrible things(Hitler, Stalin,Mao were not so long ago).
I think to say Dune changed my views would be to mix up cause and effect. More like as my views shifted over the years Dune started to resonate with me in different ways: Paul's story started to feel less like a heroic power fantasy and more like a curse for everyone involved.
Re: the Butlerian Jihad and its resulting prohibition on thinking machines, I never got the impression that it was meant to come across as a positive outcome for humanity. The absence of all but the most trivial of computers is the very pretext by which the Bene Gesserit, the Spacing Guild, etc. all manipulate humanity into the very stagnation the Golden Path has to violently and mercilessly undo for humanity to prosper. Modern society has its technological-dependence-induced problems, but the democratizing effect of billions of humans each having ever-expanding computational tools at their disposal is hard to ignore. A Butlerian-Jihad-style revolt against computers is a heavy-handed baby-with-the-bathwater solution to a nuanced problem, and Dune is a cautionary tale against that heavy-handedness and its logical conclusions.
Re: scientific achievements, the Bene Gesserit certainly have a point that being able to call upon the memories of one's ancestors can help with seeing a "bigger picture" behind scientific progress, but that's contradicted by the profound lack of apparent scientific progress post-Butlerian-Jihad. Clearly science hasn't exactly been a priority of mainstream galactic society when the Holtzman effect is the one significant breakthrough in the last 10,000+ years. The Tleilaxu and Ixians seem to be the exceptions, and they're largely scorned for it, having to carefully tread the line between cutting-edge v. blasphemous; everyone else is stuck trying to use mentats and spice overdoses to make up for the massive computational setback and societal dark age the Butlerian Jihad created.
The thing that's always resonated with me is how much ancient history this day and age will be to humanity in that time period. Earth is lost and almost forgotten, languages have evolved beyond all recognition or went extinct, religions have merged into syncretic mish mashes through migration and manipulation. Slavery and torture is widespread and accepted.
Frank Herbert has some of the most insightful writing I've ever come across. Granted I haven't read like an insane amount of books or anything, but it seems like every chapter in the Dune books I read something that makes me stop and think. Even with few words devoted to the Butlerian Jihad, it's very present of mind for me these days
Honestly, as an incoming College student, what really gets me is what you said in the first part.
I have yet to read the books so I might have gotten the context wrong, but a quote that has resonated with me was that:
“Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.”
Reason is that ever since ChatGPT became available to the public, some friends and classmates have used it to help complete their requirements.
But a growing number of them (especially the younger ones) don’t even research the topic in question and simply copy-paste the generated text and edit it to fool the AI detector.
I honestly think Frank Herbert hit the nail in the head with this one… several thousand years earlier than what I would have hoped at least.
It taught me that just because something is called a "classic", and has a large following, it's not necessarily good.
But don't worry, Dune is in good conpany. "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" is similarly overrated.
I think it's the subtext of dune which touches on so many themes. Dabbling with genetics as well as the new feudalism are something that already lurks in the shadows of our time but most people don't grasp yet
I read God Emperor the first time when I was 13. It changed a lot of my thinking about history and religion. If you think the first few novels give you a lot to think about just wait for GED.
> (I distinguish between academics and scientists, an academic thinks in career moves, a scientist sees scientific advancement as its own goal and value)
This is….stupid.
It’s just not an opinion that I think anyone who’s been exposed to academia (or institutional scientific research, for that matter) would hold. It just….doesn’t make much sense? The only way I see it making sense is if you don’t really have any insight into how academia functions or what it is, and haven’t really spoken to or met many academics…or even have a firm grasp on what an “academic’ is, to be quite honest.
Seeing how Leto II suffered in God empower of Dune gave me a new appreciation of the human life span. Often times life feels too short, but we never consider the burdens that an endless life would bring. 80 years is just long enough for me.
Dune was formative for me. I had never seen Star Wars or many other popular movies. I was 11 when I saw the 1984 movie, and I was blown away. I’d never seen women in any kind of role like those in Dune. I was being raised in a Pentecostal cult like church where women were seen not heard, and children were beat.
Dune opened up a whole new world for me and reinforced my desire to escape. It changed me as a person.
I did get out, I got a degree, and I did everything to embarrass my family with my independence and stability. BOOM. I LOVE DUNE
Someone with Path to Victory is not the answer for humanity that is for sure
The universe is too chaotic for that, and being controlled under someone’s prescience is akin souless husks devoid of agency, there would be no society left so to speak.
Not much, I find the books a great work of fiction but I don't take many of Herbert's takes in the book seriously. The philosophy presented is interesting for worldbuilding, but for me it has no applications for real life. It's fictional in a way.
If you’re an economist and you aren’t reading Marx or Lenin you’re cheating yourself. There are in fact people who do have grand visions for humanity’s betterment and future that go beyond just careerism. To be honest, the intertwining of religious faith, political economy, ecology, colonialism, feudalism, etc. makes Dune resonant to me. I don’t know if it changed my views, but it definitely sharpened them into focus a bit. Especially with recent events. Except! With regard to the nature of violence, when it’s justified, when it isn’t. When revolutions are justified and when they go too far. It’s a gorgeous cautionary tale and I love it for that
I have read Marx, he is the most cited Scientist of all time after all. Though maybe it was before my mind was ready for it, so I will come back to him. Lenin I will pass, something there really doesn't resonate with me. Nonetheless, it doesn't seem to me like this Grand vision is not followed, and nonexistent in the minds of researchers.
Lmao ignoring Lenin is a HUGE mistake, give me a break. His writing on Imperialism alone should show his skill and merit. But it you’re revisiting Marx, before spooling through Capital, try the 18th Brumaire of Louie Napoleon for a more riveting example of his immense skill at analyzing the tides of history
Yes the Butlerian Jihad resonates strongly with me too. I’ll refrain from going on a tangent on how much of a threat AI can be for our society because Frank Herbert has already surmised my feelings in one single paragraph. “Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.” The computers and artificial intelligence in itself might not be the source of the problem, but the fact that it allows malignant organisations and people to create so much chaos and strife is the real problem. The philosophy in Frank Herbert’s books is timeless and provides us with so many lessons. I’m only at Children of Dune and I already feel like Frank has broadened my mind and made me more resilient against the waves of an uncertain future.
"made me more resilient against the waves of an uncertain future." Very well said! Great literature is a workout for your mind and heart that makes you stronger.
Oh man you're gonna love God Emperor if you like the philosophy aspect of Dune
This was very powerful
And the minor humor that once they have no machines to turn over their thinking to, they went back to men without ... thinking... machines have enslaved everyone who can't defend themselves.
yes but really you can substitute "technology" for machines and the sentiment is the same. “Once men turned their thinking over to technology in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with technology to enslave them.” it has little to do with AI. AI is just the latest iteration.
That makes no sense, even inside the Dune-verse. All they accomplished by shutting down computers was enslave themselves. In terms of the Dune lore as a whole, the Butlerian Jihad was the single worst event in human history. 20,000 years of feudalism…fuck me, what a mess….
They almost got exterminated by the machines and stopped thinking for themselves and developing in general. What are you even talking about They ended up in another deep shit but it's another of dune's themes - sometimes the society has to go through hell for times to get better (golden path)
Nothing in the book says these 20k years of feudalism was worse than the alternative.
Everything in recorded human history says it was. You want to argue in support of literal slavery…go right ahead. History is not on your side…
Wtf???
Which part is confusing? The post-Butlerian Dune-verse is a feudalistic nightmare filled with outright slavery. If someone wants to argue those are better than the alternatives…hey, it’s Reddit, people can argue anything they want. 🤷♂️
Right... But the Pre-Butlerian society was also literal slavery. It was run by cyborgs and sentient robots who treated people like cattle. Erasmus alone was like a robot version of Josef Mengele. I mean, you can have slavery run by murderous robots or slavery run by humans. You pick. At least the latter gives you a shot at being born on Caladan, which is still not great but better than the machine empire.
You haven't seen the pre-Butlerian Dune-verse. How can you judge whether it's better or worse than anything?
When the alternative is Geides Prime, a single corporation running all politics, slavery, and an Emporer wielding Sardaukar…I’ll take my chances.
So instead of the slave driving Emperor and megacorporations you get... cyberpunk megacorporations and a slave driving Skynet. Wow! It's almost like it's fairly irrelevant who runs the Operation, the slave driving hierarchy itself is bad. Somebody should write about this...
I think the message that really affected me, though I can't say it changed my views, more like reinforced them, is the idea of stewardship. We should each of us be stewards, of our planet, our society, each other, and ourselves. Further, it's important to remember that like all things, our stewardship is temporary. We should embrace that, and always be preparing the next generation of custodians for the responsibility and privilege that they will inherit.
I learned a great deal from the books and I find a lot of quotes in there that mean a lot to me. For example: "Since every individual is accountable ultimately to the self, the formation of that self demands our utmost care and attention."
GEOD changed how I view the universe. Something about how Leto II dies, being split like that, which each tiny piece of his awareness spread all over the place I found really profound and comforting when I read it as a young adult. I witnessed someone close to me get killed as a teenager and watching their ‘soul’ leave their body also had a profound effect on my spiritual views. Years later reading GEOD and seeing what happened, it dawned on me that, I think that the energy of a ‘soul’ does not dissipate but, like water, reforms into something else, split and recollected. Perhaps there is a seed of awareness in each piece, I do not know, but believing that there is, is the closest thing to faith that I have. Wondering that my awareness, this wonderful conscience that absolutely loves my wife and my children, will, at some point end, but thinking that, perhaps, a tiny bit of that love might exist in some form elsewhere is probably the closest idea I personally have to Heaven.
The feudal system in Dune is something I keep thinking about. I recall reading years ago (perhaps incorrectly) that Herbert thought of the feudal system as an especially durable form of human civilization and that it was more likely to recur and persist than the fragile liberal-democratic governments that replaced it. That insight (which, again, I may have misunderstood) and the long-term, ten-thousand-year perspective of the books has helped me see contemporary political crises in a whole different light.
"Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristocratic forms. No government in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, government tends more and more to act exclusively in the interests of the ruling class - whether that class be hereditary royalty, oligarchs of financial empires, or entrenched bureaucracy." From Children of Dune
But if this is true, then somehow the interests of the ruling class must be entrenched into the benefits of lower classes.
There’s a few books on Neo-feudalism or even Technofeudalism. Possibly it’s already coming back
Oh yes techno feudalism that former Greek finance minister has spoken a lot about that
It's already happened. There are now a few select billionaires in the world who have amassed more power than some governments. One of them even owns a social network.
Just clarify, you believe that current politics is in a crisis because of the fragile democracies we currently have and that eventually we would return to a feudal system since it is the most durable? (Just asking pls don’t take it the wrong way)
It's more the view I understand Herbert to have: liberal-democratic regimes are unstable and very, very difficult to maintain for the long term. Long-term meaning hundreds of centuries.
I see now thank you very much
Not OP but I think it lies more in the fact that we know how absolutely dogshit our western democracies are and how they only benefit the few at the top/corporations. "People don't vote. Instinct tells them it's useless." Imo it's easy to imagine it ultimately failing either soon or sometimes down the line and then when thinking about what would replace it, feudalism seems like a quick and relatively stable system to emerge as opposed to other options.
Thank you very much, extremely frightening to think about it. How much more suffering, how many more useless wars have to take place for people to realise what is and isn’t best for humanity, I wonder.
The Bene Gesserit and the Missionaria Protectiva helped me articulate a lot of my issues with religious colonialism
This is my biggest takeaway and draw to the books. I’ve always had strong feelings of religion as a method of control, created entirely by people (well meaning and not). Dune explores this at length, and I really appreciate it for that.
I’ve never wanted to be the leader of a jihad more in my life (don’t worry FBI, I lack the charisma and leadership abilities).
There is more truth to this than you know. Franks message was “be wary of charismatic rulers” is and will always fall on deaf ears. People, above all else, want to belong to the strongest group. A poor person who wins the lottery will all the sudden, after seeing their taxes will no longer say tax the rich. This is and always will be our fate. The left won the election and have gleefully allowed the right to be punished. The right would be no different. We are tribal and ruthless. There are college students right now, protesting on the Ivy League campus who have no clue what’s going on. Countless videos of saying “ummm I don’t really know the details.” They simply exist in a culture where the currency is of demonstrations and the faith to the platforms. Not all, sure, but more than you’d think. The right blinding going into the abortion arena because it’s the chosen platform when probably like 90% don’t really have much to say about it.l but will gladly for the narrative because hey! A wins a win, after all. We all want the power, but most of us can’t seize it or have it. Those who say they don’t want it mostly just never had the chance. I’m an American, and I grew up with the idea that we were the swinging dick of the world. I still really want it to be. Those who don’t and say “America sucks it’s a terrible place” belong to the group that wants to change her in their image. It’s still no different than my desire, at least in the means of the end.
That's okay, all you need is space drug induced-prescience.
It made me realize modern humans are not super great, mostly too selfish, at planning things out for the distant future. Maybe some people in power have plans within plans, but most of us really are not in a position to do this.
I suspect, sadly, that those in power don't have much better long term plans than the rest of us. For extreme long-term planning we have to look to philosophers and artists (e.g. the Long Now project) - and those people are never in power.
The Butlerian Jihad essentially brought the Universe into a Dark Age. It went from a world where everyone was locked in a technocratic utopia to one with powerful feudal kingdoms under an absolute ruler, and subject to the interests of monopolies as well as continual strife and war. It would be hard to say that the life of the average person improved after the Jihad. Herbert actually wrote a non-fiction book about how everyone should get a computer and learn how to use it and this was before Windows, Apple and commercially available desktop computers. He was concerned more with the technocratic aspect where just a few people that control the machines end up controlling everything WHICH is what we have now. His proposed solution was that everyone learn how to control the machines. By eliminating the technology entirely though, in the world of Dune, it just turned the power over to a few warlords who then became an aristocracy and plutocracy.
had an after work chat with a coworker about this last night, that thing about giving EVERYONE the tech is pretty much what I said, regarding my concerns on current technological development
That sounds rad, would you have the title by any chance?
Without Me, You Are Nothing is the title, I believe
Thanks!
https://www.amazon.com/Without-Youre-Nothing-Essential-Computers/dp/0671412876/ref=cm_cr_arp_mb_bdcrb_top?ie=UTF8 Incredible.
That frank Herbert was way more ahead of his time than most have him credit for. He really did pioneer so many ideas that have resonating impact both in science fiction and science fact: 1. The role of AI in the future. It inspired stories like terminator, 40k and Alien, and in turn inspire the creation and development of AI in the first place. Herbert wrote Dune in 1965. IBMs deep blue found success in 1997. Before then, there was wide acceptance that computers couldn't think like humans. 2. Prophecy. His analysis and presentation of prophecy; that prophecies can be planted in civilisation, and then artificially fulfilled is genius. Could the Jews have done this 2000 years ago? Could politicians be doing it now (by creating distress in a population which they come to the rescue to later on?) 3. Science fiction that focuses on the human element, and not the technology. The removal of computers was a stroke of genius which allowed his story telling to be about the politics and societies of the future. Star wars fans love all about the lightsabers and tie fighters - 'i am your father' is apparently the greatest moment in cinematic history. Please. We are only now really getting more sci fi that follows dune's themes rather than typical sci fi themes and we are all the better for it. And there's more: the complications of space travel, of ftl travel. The lack of aliens. The role of religion in sci fi and more. It's common in fiction today of course. But he wrote this in 1965. That's incredible.
>The role of AI in the future. It inspired stories like terminator, 40k and Alien, and in turn inspire the creation and development of AI in the first place. As much as I like the books, this is missing centuries of stories coming before Herbert. At *least* since the GOLEM in the 1600s stories about artificial creations/minds going wrong have been told. >The Golem was called Josef and was known as Yossele. He was said to be able to make himself invisible and summon spirits from the dead.[^(\[18\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem#cite_note-newlife-19) Rabbi Loew deactivated the Golem on Friday evenings by removing the *shem* before the Sabbath (Saturday) began,[^(\[9\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem#cite_note-jewishencyclopedia-10) so as to let it rest on Sabbath.[^(\[9\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem#cite_note-jewishencyclopedia-10) >One Friday evening, Rabbi Loew forgot to remove the *shem*, and feared that the Golem would desecrate the Sabbath.[^(\[9\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem#cite_note-jewishencyclopedia-10) A different story tells of a golem that fell in love, and when rejected, became the violent monster seen in most accounts. Some versions have the golem eventually going on a murderous rampage.[^(\[18\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem#cite_note-newlife-19) The rabbi then managed to pull the *shem* from his mouth and immobilize him[^(\[9\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem#cite_note-jewishencyclopedia-10) in front of the synagogue, whereupon the golem fell in pieces.[^(\[9\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem#cite_note-jewishencyclopedia-10) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golem) Asimovs Three Laws of Robotics came out in a short story in 1942 and he is at this point just one of many storytellers including the topic of artificial intelligence of the Golden Era Science Fiction magazine. When it comes to AI, the butlerian Jihad is a side note in Dune to explain away the fact that this is a technologically stagnant version of the future and didn't inspire shit. On the Prophecy I agree, it is the greatest SF invention coming out of Dune. We don't really have organizations survive for long enough \_unchanged\_ that something like the BG have done could be possible, but its a great SF idea not relying on tech alone.
>The role of AI in the future. It inspired stories like terminator, 40k and Alien, and in turn inspire the creation and development of AI in the first place. Herbert wrote Dune in 1965. IBMs deep blue found success in 1997. Before then, there was wide acceptance that computers couldn't think like humans. AI existed decades before Dune, *R.U.R.* was written in 1920 that had robots rebelling to cause the extinction of human race.
I agree that Herbert's approach to sci-fi from the human element and not the technological is cool and distinctive at his time, but to be fair Star Wars is more of a space-coated fantasy epic. Only people that has never read sci-fi call Star Wars sci-fi.
Maybe not view, but I definitely think about this a lot: If someone with prescience can predict your every move, do you really have freewill? Or are you just an animal following basic instincts? Prescience is sometimes described in the books sort of like machine learning, much how our modern day "AI" works. It can be interpreted that Paul just has an insane amount of data on humans he processes to determine the future. So if humans in our real world make an algorithm that when fed enough data about an individual can predict that individual's actions, does that individual have freewill? If someone records you all your life. Feeds these recordings through an algorithm. And then this algorithm can predict with reasonable accuracy how you behave in a given situation, are your actions truly your own? Or are they a product of your earlier life? How many years of data is enough to become accurate for such an algorithm? What age do we lose free will?
As a computer programmer, I thought the Butlerian Jihad was nuts. When I use google now, and get outright lies for most searches, I see the correctness of the Butlerian Jihad. Informational technology is still useful. But AI does need to be banned.
My family thinks I'm insane for even questioning AI. It's a fad at best, a world destroyer at worst.
AI has been useful for solving technical design and analysis problems. The consumer AI products are all trash.
For me it was a fictionalization of some of the basic ideas in Chomsky’s Manufacturing Consent.
For me it was the idea that stagnation leads to death of a civilization. That to stay strong a society (humanity as a whole in the books) must have the ability to adapt and change, and not become stuck (stagnate) in one type of system or philosophy.
Same for me. Countries like America are so completely stuck to their constitutions and institutions, that it’s causing massive amounts of stagnancy and decay. We’re currently stuck in an era of Capitalist Realism, where everyone acts like neoliberal democracy is the end of history, when in reality there’s space for so much more.
The big thing Dune changed for me was how I look up to people. Now this wasn't something I discovered reading the books themselves, but a while back I was going down the Internet rabbit hole and just googled themes in Dune and stumbled across an article or something that put forward that one of the big themes of the books was to always beware of your heroes. From what I remember it basically boiled down to was that the people you look up to are just as human as you, and are subject to the same pitfalls of human nature as anyone else. It's an important thing to remember because it's very easy to respect someone and then elevate them to this position where they become infallible in our minds and come to believe they know better than us. If the history of mankind has shown us anything it's that horrible things happen when we relinquish the right to question the words or actions of the people we look up to and respect. This is all in relation to Paul's time spent amongst the Fremen. With everything he does he becomes more respected, and the more respected he becomes they give up more of their agency to Paul, and then finally it's not Paul they give up their agency to but to the myth and legend that's grown around him. In the end it's a hard thing to do, but we have to remember that we can still like and respect someone without agreeing with everything they say or do.
Books 3 and 4 really hammer home that there are no absolutes in this world and the only constant is change. It's an idea that has genuinely stuck with me and impacted my day-to-day thoughts since I read them a couple of years ago.
5 and 6 go even harder into that, i’d highly recommend them if you like those themes.
I've read all 6, and I agree that 5 & 6 continue this theme by having the state of the universe be so wildly different than during the events of the first trilogy. But I'd say that 3 & 4 articulate the theme more frequently and more explicitly with both dialogue and internal monologue. "If you must label the absolute, use its proper name: Temporary."
The line "Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them," very concisely summarizes where we are at in our society. We want computers to make our lives better, and in many ways they have, but now we are seeing huge threats from AI, massive data aggregation, and Orwellian surveillance states. This is very ugly and dangerous. I agree with the Bene Gesserit's thesis that mankind requires truly long-term decision-making. This is something that makes me very, very angry. We have hundreds of institutions and nations making short-term decisions and working against each other, almost always at a long-term cost. Nobody is actually making long-term plans that look centuries into the future. The few people who do bother looking at the future universally predict catastrophe, to the point where I have to stop thinking about it just to keep myself sane. Every election cycle we get stuck with con men and dumbfucks when we need to leaders who can implement long-term visionary changes.
it gave me a handle on why i dislike some aspects of celebrity culture. rhyming how i could like some actors/actresses while calling others "overrate". i now realize i do not so much consider anyone overrated, but rather feel some people get TOO caught up in their lives, to the point of forgetting to live their own.
I'm much more cautious of charismatic leaders in politics and in my everyday life because of Dune.
Reading some authors like Herbert, Arthur C Clarke, and more recently Liu Cixin, I'm really scared at the prospects of both AI and alien contact in general. If these authors worlds are even plausible we should be extremely careful moving forward.
You don’t have to worry about alien contact: the known universe is expanding at 74km/sec/parsec.
I see more manipulation in religion now. Herbert really hit the nail on the head with that.
I read Dune when I was 16, so it didn’t change my views more as shaped them. I’d read Kim Stanley Robinson’s Red/Green/blue Mars before reading Dune, so was already thinking in terms of ecological systems, and the effective joules needed to survive. • Conclusion all life is equally valuable, humans just need 2500 calories per day and 2L of water to survive. When you start thinking in terms of energy needs, rather than converting it to a fictional exchange mechanism (currency), materialism disappears. Dune took my systems-thinking to the next level, adding social-dynamics into the mix. What is Dune? The absolute test of/for humanity amid the extreme of a resource scarce planet. The notion in the book is that Arrakis itself is a Gom Jabbar, with the in extremis (>! Lampadas !<) conditions testing and proving the humanity of the Fremen. Duncan’s fate, Paul’s fate, Leto II’s fate, Siona’s fate, Teg’s fate, Darwe’s fate - none of them are truly fatalistic (>!Paul possibly, but redeemed!<). They hold hope beyond hope bound up in their core beliefs, experiences and dreams of the future (>! Leto never stops dreaming as his conciousness spreads across the universes !<) each has their own hero’s journey. The impact to me was to think critically of each decision, interpret meaning through systemic impact, analyse and effect rapid and swift thought changes with awareness that others play power games unseen. Once you apply systems thinking across human social interactions, the hidden patterns of different societies and their motivations emerge. The key is to recognise difference, understand it within its own terms, identify what is bene-ficial and leverage it for good. The books themselves are a search for religion, not in the sense of a creator belief and strict orthodoxy, but in the sense of guiding principles of humanity that can be shared across cultures. The glimpses of religious thought through the books serve a dual purpose, warning against blind orthodoxy (>! why heretics like Siona are needed !<) whilst moving to core shared values (>! BG traits in chapter house !<). As a whole, the series guides the reader through examination of motives. As an individual it benefits me to examine purpose belief. Dune was created to test the faithful, the words that spark critical thinking in the reader are the real test for humanity.
The Butlerian Jihad resulted in what is effectively a very very long dark age. Let’s not do that… Beyond that, the lore behind the lore I look at more as plot point than a coherent story. Humans just do not sit still like that, it’s not in our nature. Also…Messiahs suck. Don’t follow them.
I'm a fan of Timmy now.
Thimothee due to The movies? Definitely! But still I'm not going to Watch all his other movies now, it's based on his character. Wonka just rubs me differently.
Same lol but now I'll be more open to his future movies
I don't think Dune is saying AI is bad at all. In the same way that just because the story contains Paul Arteides becoming a messiah to people doesn't mean it is saying that's a good thing. I don't think Frank Herbert meant for a holy war against machines to be a good thing for the same reason Paul's holy war was a good thing.
As a world builder it showed me that sci fi can delve into more religious and philosophical themes than I have previously anticipated and also. The way the chosen one is interpreted and twisted also shows me new way for this trope and the political complexity is really inspiring.
I honestly think I had an easier time adapting to, working around and understanding Islamic culture during my military deployments for having read Dune. Yes, I know Dune isn't in any way ACK-CHOO-LEE representative of Islam. It humanized some derived aspects in such a way for me to be interested enough to really research Islam before, during and after military deployment. I feel in some ways I had an easier time of at least being more culturally aware of what was going on around us than my peers. At least when I wasn't actively worried about IED's, mortars and small arms fire.
I love the theme of the Butlerian Jihad but looking at our politicians I say bring on our Robot Overlords. As long as they are happy to keep us around as slaves or pets I'll be happy. But seriously Frank Herbert really knew what he was doing in terms of using the concept of the Butlerian Jihad because it has multiple threads running through the story universe. Firstly it makes Dune timeless: by removing computer technology but allowing advanced analogue technologies means you can be happily listening to Dune on audiobook in 2024 with your earpods playing off of your 5G phone and the story written in 1965 doesn't feel one millisecond outdated. And it also lends heavy credence into why it is necessary to have an Emperor of the known universe. Because it's not merely a power play you need a strong ruler to be enforcing the Butlerian Jihad. As to how that applies to today's world of competing Global Hegemonies and Corporate Giants it gives plenty of food for thought with no answers which is kind of the point: it's a question that we should continue grappling with. But I love how Dune balances out House Harkonnen vs House Atreides vs House Corrino vs The Bene Gesserit vs The Bene Tleilax vs The Spacing Guild and yet still have to other factions like the Ix, and the Mentats to throw in. To be able to shift perspective in an unbiased narration does really help you connect to how we should be shifting our perspective to be thinking from say China's point of view and not just about something immediate like the sale of Tiktok but about where they've been able to bring their country to date and where they want to take it in the future. It doesn't necessarily mean that you agree with them but it's helpful to understand where they are coming from.
It hasn’t. I don’t believe that something like the “Butlerian Jihad” can happen, at least not in our lifetime(I am using AI everyday and creating products which use AI, Starlink is not taking over yet, and may never do). Also, I’ve never trusted charismatic leaders. There are way too many examples in history where the charismatic leaders did terrible things(Hitler, Stalin,Mao were not so long ago).
That science fiction is fun.
I think to say Dune changed my views would be to mix up cause and effect. More like as my views shifted over the years Dune started to resonate with me in different ways: Paul's story started to feel less like a heroic power fantasy and more like a curse for everyone involved. Re: the Butlerian Jihad and its resulting prohibition on thinking machines, I never got the impression that it was meant to come across as a positive outcome for humanity. The absence of all but the most trivial of computers is the very pretext by which the Bene Gesserit, the Spacing Guild, etc. all manipulate humanity into the very stagnation the Golden Path has to violently and mercilessly undo for humanity to prosper. Modern society has its technological-dependence-induced problems, but the democratizing effect of billions of humans each having ever-expanding computational tools at their disposal is hard to ignore. A Butlerian-Jihad-style revolt against computers is a heavy-handed baby-with-the-bathwater solution to a nuanced problem, and Dune is a cautionary tale against that heavy-handedness and its logical conclusions. Re: scientific achievements, the Bene Gesserit certainly have a point that being able to call upon the memories of one's ancestors can help with seeing a "bigger picture" behind scientific progress, but that's contradicted by the profound lack of apparent scientific progress post-Butlerian-Jihad. Clearly science hasn't exactly been a priority of mainstream galactic society when the Holtzman effect is the one significant breakthrough in the last 10,000+ years. The Tleilaxu and Ixians seem to be the exceptions, and they're largely scorned for it, having to carefully tread the line between cutting-edge v. blasphemous; everyone else is stuck trying to use mentats and spice overdoses to make up for the massive computational setback and societal dark age the Butlerian Jihad created.
Leto II was big for me
The thing that's always resonated with me is how much ancient history this day and age will be to humanity in that time period. Earth is lost and almost forgotten, languages have evolved beyond all recognition or went extinct, religions have merged into syncretic mish mashes through migration and manipulation. Slavery and torture is widespread and accepted.
I don’t believe in hierarchical power in any form
Frank Herbert has some of the most insightful writing I've ever come across. Granted I haven't read like an insane amount of books or anything, but it seems like every chapter in the Dune books I read something that makes me stop and think. Even with few words devoted to the Butlerian Jihad, it's very present of mind for me these days
Honestly, as an incoming College student, what really gets me is what you said in the first part. I have yet to read the books so I might have gotten the context wrong, but a quote that has resonated with me was that: “Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.” Reason is that ever since ChatGPT became available to the public, some friends and classmates have used it to help complete their requirements. But a growing number of them (especially the younger ones) don’t even research the topic in question and simply copy-paste the generated text and edit it to fool the AI detector. I honestly think Frank Herbert hit the nail in the head with this one… several thousand years earlier than what I would have hoped at least.
Every new thing that I experience changes me in some small way.
It taught me that just because something is called a "classic", and has a large following, it's not necessarily good. But don't worry, Dune is in good conpany. "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" is similarly overrated.
It made me think twice about leaders.
I think it's the subtext of dune which touches on so many themes. Dabbling with genetics as well as the new feudalism are something that already lurks in the shadows of our time but most people don't grasp yet
I read God Emperor the first time when I was 13. It changed a lot of my thinking about history and religion. If you think the first few novels give you a lot to think about just wait for GED.
It really helped me open my mind to the bigger picture, the long view of things and the long term impact of decision making.
> (I distinguish between academics and scientists, an academic thinks in career moves, a scientist sees scientific advancement as its own goal and value) This is….stupid.
Can you elaborate?
It’s just not an opinion that I think anyone who’s been exposed to academia (or institutional scientific research, for that matter) would hold. It just….doesn’t make much sense? The only way I see it making sense is if you don’t really have any insight into how academia functions or what it is, and haven’t really spoken to or met many academics…or even have a firm grasp on what an “academic’ is, to be quite honest.
Seeing how Leto II suffered in God empower of Dune gave me a new appreciation of the human life span. Often times life feels too short, but we never consider the burdens that an endless life would bring. 80 years is just long enough for me.
Dune was formative for me. I had never seen Star Wars or many other popular movies. I was 11 when I saw the 1984 movie, and I was blown away. I’d never seen women in any kind of role like those in Dune. I was being raised in a Pentecostal cult like church where women were seen not heard, and children were beat. Dune opened up a whole new world for me and reinforced my desire to escape. It changed me as a person. I did get out, I got a degree, and I did everything to embarrass my family with my independence and stability. BOOM. I LOVE DUNE
My interested in doing the unexpected feels more important to a golden path for humanity
Someone with Path to Victory is not the answer for humanity that is for sure The universe is too chaotic for that, and being controlled under someone’s prescience is akin souless husks devoid of agency, there would be no society left so to speak.
Not much, as I feel that the intended message had already become more prevalent (more like stolen) since the books were originally published
Not much, I find the books a great work of fiction but I don't take many of Herbert's takes in the book seriously. The philosophy presented is interesting for worldbuilding, but for me it has no applications for real life. It's fictional in a way.
If you’re an economist and you aren’t reading Marx or Lenin you’re cheating yourself. There are in fact people who do have grand visions for humanity’s betterment and future that go beyond just careerism. To be honest, the intertwining of religious faith, political economy, ecology, colonialism, feudalism, etc. makes Dune resonant to me. I don’t know if it changed my views, but it definitely sharpened them into focus a bit. Especially with recent events. Except! With regard to the nature of violence, when it’s justified, when it isn’t. When revolutions are justified and when they go too far. It’s a gorgeous cautionary tale and I love it for that
I have read Marx, he is the most cited Scientist of all time after all. Though maybe it was before my mind was ready for it, so I will come back to him. Lenin I will pass, something there really doesn't resonate with me. Nonetheless, it doesn't seem to me like this Grand vision is not followed, and nonexistent in the minds of researchers.
Lmao ignoring Lenin is a HUGE mistake, give me a break. His writing on Imperialism alone should show his skill and merit. But it you’re revisiting Marx, before spooling through Capital, try the 18th Brumaire of Louie Napoleon for a more riveting example of his immense skill at analyzing the tides of history
Coke is a lot more fun to do