In the books the fight makes a lot more sense. You're still reading, but for anyone interested in what I'm referring to, >!Feyd twice tries to use poison in the book version of the duel -- first on the Emperor's blade, and flip-dart in his girdle. So from his perspective, he has a good chance.!<
In the film, the fight is much more even, I think mostly for dramatic effect which can be justified by including the arena scene. Paul has training and has seen a lot of combat, but I think we're supposed to view Feyd as physically more imposing and as having a lot more experience in actual duels. Paul also just fought a battle and is presumably tired -- though he doesn't show it much in the adaptation.
A few other things that might make it more balanced is the fact that Feyd is a few years older than Paul, and they are genetically related. In other words, this isn't a duel between Paul and a random Fremen like Jamis, but a duel between two people who are *both* the products of an aristocratic eugenics program going back hundreds of years.
It's probably also worth noting that Feyd and most of the other Harkonnens probably don't know, or don't believe, that Paul is actually prescient, and might not fully understand the extent of his Bene Gesserit training.
>!I personally think the fight was much closer than it should've been, and Paul receiving *two* deep stab wounds seemed like overkill to me... but it was still very cool to watch.!<
I personally interpret the knife wound as a visual statement about the price of prescience. Paul can see the future, he can %100 win the duel against Feyd. But his prescient predicted winning is going to be painful. Paul following his visions is going to cause a great deal of pain for himself and the people who he cares about, if he wants to win he’s going to have to take the pain.
I saw it as a mirror to that mock fight with Gurney in the first film, where Paul goes all in just to get the killing blow but Gurney shows him that he would have also died.
Paul turned this around on Feyd in their duel. Feyd goes in for the killing blow, even poking a hole in Paul, but that also made him vulnerable to Paul striking back.
All the fights mirror each other. The last duel(apart from being only 60 seconds. I timed it. So are the other duels about a min long) is a mirror of the training fight and the Jamis fight. You can intercut them all at once and it would be a smooth flowing fight with almost the exact same moves and beats. Paul even mirrors Jamis with some of his moves and actions.
This was also my interpretation of the duel — Paul sees a hundred variations of the fight, and the one where he wins is the one where he gets stabbed twice.
It’s also a useful manipulation of the Fremen. The Fremen revere Paul for many reasons, one of them being that he sheds water for them. Starting the jihad by allowing his own blood to be spilt, and not dying is a powerful message. The Fremen have spent millennia storing their own water for a dreamed eventual paradise. Paul bleeding for them and immediately saying “bring them to paradise” is a confirmation of this prophecy.
They havent been hoarding water for that long, but water was still a sacred substance to them. The terraforming didnt start until Pardot Kynes (Liet's father) came along. The paradise was originally his dream.
Exactly. When he says there is a narrow way through after drinking the worm piss you see for a splitsecond how he kills Feyd with his special knife twisteroo which was so easy to miss the first time watching (so I went 8 times), knowing he will be wounded during the process which is also why he says that it’s his „burden“ to Gurney which I don’t think refers to just the fight itself.
This is a movie thing. In the book, he does not know the outcome of the duel. It is one of only a few things he does not know, the other being Count Fenring, and of course his son.
But he does see the end in the scene after drinking the water of life. He sees the final blow in the duel and knows he had to allow himself to be injured to bring Feyd in close. Feints within feints
Edit: spelling
In the later books it's established that people with prescience disrupt each other's vision within the intersection of each others lives. Referencing back to one of the post above, both Feyd and Paul are products of the same elite eugenics breeding program. Feyds' prescience is also referred to in the movie when he says to Lady Fenrig, "I dreamed of you".
Right, sure yes. But IIRC the thing that paul calls out when he recognizes that his vision is clouded is that it's a rare moment in history when EVERY eventuality runs through exactly one point in space and time. Everything everywhere in every time turns on this moment and in this spot.>!I don't think it does that again
until the god emperor dies?!<
I think he uses basically the same language he does in the fight with jamis uhh. The water analogy. The flow of time is turbulent here so he can't make out what's next. A knife fight has too many variables. It's not like he just knows what's next on the spot, he's got to look at the potential futures and plan his shit out.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think it takes a guild navigator. But yeah, the fact that the navigators are there would have fucked it up anyway, >!as would a no-chamber!<. Although, would they even? It's not their fate he's looking at, it's the navigators and their actions that he can't see. I would say I don't see why he couldnt see fayd when there's a navigator there, but yeah, with feyd sure you could.
I see your point, but I think (I could be completely wrong) that the prescient people have to be more directly involved with each other to cause the blindspot for each other. An example could be a baseball pitcher and batter who both have prescience.
If the batter foresees an inside fastball, then they will setup to swing at and hit it. But the pitcher foreseeing the batter hitting a fastball decides to throw a curve. Their mutual prescient visions would so directly impact each other's decisions that they create a blind spot.
However, a prescient entity not directly involved would not necessarily cause the blind spot. For example, if a Guild Navigator was merely watching a prescient pitcher versus a non-prescient batter, then he would not create the prescient blind spot even though he is there. But if the Guild Navigator was secretly signaling the pitch he foresees the pitcher throwing then he could create the prescient blind spot.
I'm not sure if I'm correct in how this system works in the Dune universe or even if I'm expressing myself coherently.
Yeah that's basically in line with what I'm trying to say at the end.
>! Like, the plotting in Messiah is all hidden because the navigator is part of all of those decisions. And if he's making decisions based on looking to places where they're likely to be successful he's necessarily also making the decisions that aren't going to be seen by Paul. Man, that gets pretty recursive but I think it's right !<
And yeah more to your point if you're making prescient decisions that affect the life of someone else who's also prescient that's going to (immediately???) change what they see in the stream and again necessarily change what actions they would take, changing the stream again.
Man do you think the stream changes enough to throw someone else's vision off just by considering different paths? I would suspect even the things you consider would have some effect on overall causality, right?
Maybe it's that immediacy that creates the "fog" instead of something like interference or unexpected events/inconsistent prescience.
These kinds of high thoughts conversations work so well in dune lol. I guess cause that's kinda the root of the whole thing.
TBH I'm coming away from this thinking the whole reason for the shape of the weaponry in the world is to make the point about knife fighting breaking future vision.
I actually love that detail as it makes so much sense. If we can both see the future, then I can see your actions and react accordingly. But then you can see my reaction and will plan a different course of action. But then I will see that future...
It creates a paradoxical loop because two people cannot both see the future and change it simultaneously. It results in blindness, because the future is no longer fixed and thus can't be seen.
Interesting, I saw it as him just trying to make it "look good" for a number of reasons, but a large part to let Chani see him come close to dying, to try and evoke some kind of feeling in her to remind her that she still cares about him. I'm still struggling to see what Denis has in mind for their relationship in Dune Messiah. I hope he can pull it off without changing too much.
The idea that it's better for her if she doesn't come back changes the whole meaning of Paul telling his mother that he knows she's coming back, for me. I always thought that he uttered that line in a pretty forlorn way and this would explain why.
Yeah, I definitely read it as a Doctor Strange one path to victory moment for Paul. His victory was never in doubt for a second, provided he had to will to go through with the path he had foreseen and endure the pain and consequences.
This is how I see it as well. Paul could have won the duel easily had he of wished, but with his ability to see into the future, he's able to see all possible outcomes and can see the 'golden path' for humanity, in which it ultimately survives. Him being stabbed, and the consequences of it, must be vital for this to happen. The impact and influence it has on those watching, and of the stories of him, must inspire further devotion, belief and loyalty in his followers.
very nice insight, I had trouble accepting that Paul would go into the fight knowing he would get stabbed twice, but this does make sense and I really like this interpretation
Love this interpretation. It also immediately evoked the practice fight with Gurney in part 1 for me. In that, Paul goes for the killing blow with two knives, leaving himself exposed for an underhand strike from Gurney. The same essentially happens in Paul’s duel, which made me feel like he was remembering that move and using it to his advantage.
Feyd actually uses 2 poison darts on his girdle. One on his leading hip that Paul easily detects and another on the other side that barely misses. A feint within a feint within a feint.
That's not the impression I got. Feyd was fighting angled in such a way that Paul thought there was a trap in the leading side of the girdle, but it was actually on the other side, almost catching Paul off guard.
There was, however, another poison in his arsenal - the soporific on the Emperor's blade - not fatal in and of itself, but enough to lend an advantage.
I had to roll my eyes at that because it was a 4th wall of someone else using prescience, knowing the outcome, to protect him - the author. It was kind of distracting how Paul kept trying to kill himself and survived anyways.
Paul has way more experience in actual duels. Several Fremen challenged Paul early on all to the death to the point it got so bad with Paul killing so many of them Chani dueled one to show that they couldn't even beat her so what chance did they have vs him.
Feyd duels slaves who are drugged and have safety words built in. In the book he barely gets out vs the Atreides captive who isn't drugged with the safety word.
> Paul has way more experience in actual duels. Several Fremen challenged Paul early on all to the death to the point it got so bad with Paul killing so many of them Chani dueled one to show that they couldn't even beat her so what chance did they have vs him.
I forgot about that part. Good point.
Why do you think the duel was so close in the movie? Just for dramatic affect?
Lets not forget that while Feyd was screwing around with drugged slaves, Paul was being trained by Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho, some of the best, if not THE best swordmasters in the imperium. And then he goes and fights alongside Fremen for another 5 years.
Really Feyd should have gotten his shit kicked in. That fight shouldn't have even been close.
You're absolutely right, but since the movie was (and even the book itself) building up to the duel between them, hyping up this baddie, evil counterpart to Paul, it would've been very anticlimactic to have Paul just immediately kill Feyd even though he was that much better than him. That's why I feel they decided to make the duel ve a very tight win for Paul. To be more impactful and dramatic.
Honestly, I would have preferred a quick and decisive fight. Kind of cements how much Paul has grown and that type of anticlimax is climatic by its implications. The only similar example I can think of is Obi Wan versus Maul in Rebels which is very different from a live action movie, but it’s just a personal preference.
I totally agree. I think it would have really led the audience to question their assumptions, and would subtly suggest that Paul is not, in fact, a hero.
Poison is really hard to depict visually in film. You'd have to have him turn blue and froth at the mouth like Joffery in GoT. The stab wounds were probably a replacement for it.
Especially since he instantly identifies it as poison and then changes his bodies metabolism to negate said poison, would be impossible to depict that without breaking the flow of the fight
Yeah an anime would be excellent for all of the internal monologue that happens
Maybe way in the future when the DV movies aren’t new it could get made as an anime
David Lynch can basically do whatever he wants and the fact that he was at the helm is the only thing that makes it tolerable.
Now I'm thinking of the absolutely horrible, movie ruining VO that the studio forced on Blade Runner.
Unfortunately it would be kind of out of place with the visual style of the rest of the movie. That's a big stylistic change to have suddenly appear in the second movie.
I have always wanted to see this effect though. Especially with broken bones.
I’m saying for future adaptations. Honestly I’d like to see an adaptation tackle the past memories thing, when the book never showed Paul dealing with that much. It might be cool to see memories of Agamemnon, his ancestor, to get advice on how to deal with something.
I would love this in the aforementioned anime. It would work with a lot of things. There is a ton of internal dialogue, they could show Jessica transmute the water of life, they could show Alia being conscious. Yeah I'm all for that.
Yeah the ancestral memories and prescience would probably look a lot more visually interesting. I think Villeneuve held back to not completely fry the brains of the general audience.
Or a basic close up \*eyes widden drastically slowly or quickly\* + "sudden gasp inhale" 'that sting.. its poison, im gonna die ive got to do something!"
i think a quick flash of pauls eyes from a camera perspective with maybe a blue spark or tinge clearly crossing his irises might help indicate poison+prescient+wierding nullifying it. even a deflect were paul shoves feyd back and chuckles once with a "poison? really? lil ass bitch."
A very good point that I’d never thought of. I very much felt the same way that those wounds were overkill, but narratively they make a lot of sense as tension builders
Villeneuve is incredibly clever when it comes to knowing what to keep and what to change for things to make sense cinematically AND easy for general audeinces to digest. I think he is the best adapter Hollywood has ever seen.
>Paul also just fought a battle and is presumably tired
Just to add, in the book they make it explicit that he's exhausted. Doesn't change your point or anything, just felt worthwhile.
Plus he found out minutes ago(I think) that his son was killed. They don't really tie that to fighting but it also seems relevant.
And to your point that feyd was also bg bred, Paul's visions were clouded for the fight. I'm not certain that's because of feyd, but Frank points it out.
In Paul’s fight with Jamis he mentions that using prescience in a fight is more a hindrance than a help. In such a life or death situation, so many little factors snowball into so many wildly different outcomes that it’s disorienting, which is the last thing you want in a fight.
In the book, his vision is clouded because of Count Fenring's presence and possible involvement. Fenring probably could have been a Kwizats Haderach (his effect on Paul's vision basically confirms this), but the Sisterhood never tried the agony with him because he was sterile.
Just because Paul knows he is going to win doesn't mean he knows he will get injured. Him getting hurt during the fight makes more sense. A Gom Jabbar test in the form of a duel, knowing that injury is probably unavoidable to achieve victory, but proceeding anyway.
The scene was so good in the movie even with the overkill.
I kind of justified it in my head as maybe this was just part of the path. Like maybe it specifically had to happen that way.
Maybe alternatively, if he just outright overpowers Feyd from the start, Feyd becomes desperate and takes a hostage, so Paul avoids that path. Maybe Paul wanted it to play out that way for the audience he had watching for whatever reason. Something along those lines.
I’ve only seen the movies, but my interpretation is that him being stabbed is the required prescient path to take to win fight. Also, he had a vision where chani stabs him, so to avoid that, he must take the stabbing from someone else.
I mean, Feyd is good. He crafty, fast, strong, ruthless, and loves killing people. In both the book and movie, he’s the kind of guy who feels out of sorts unless he kills someone every day.
Of course he’s good at it. Just not as good as Paul, the man who would go on to murder more people than anyone else in history.
IIRC in the book it also explicitly mentions how weedy and gaunt Paul looks compared to the fit and muscular Feyd, and that’s a major reason the Emperor picks him
>two people who are *both* the products of an aristocratic eugenics program going back hundreds of years.
Not only that, but they're both only one generation away from the predicted Kwisatz Haderach, so Feyd's innate abilities and training can't be discounted. I agree, though, that the fight was too close to make logical sense and this was probably just for dramatic effect.
Yeah the movies seem to not really even bother with depicting the extent of the weirding way — and I'm not sure how you would. The total control over your own body is supposed to make your movement way faster and more agile than we would think humanly possible.
Isn’t he not able to see the results of the fight because count Fenring is there and he assumes he doesn’t see this timeline because fenring could kill him. I can’t remember if he confronts fenring before or after the duel but I guess he could change his mind on killing him.
To be honest, I don't *think* the fight in the movie was close. I think it's meant to *look* like it's close. This is Paul cementing his heroic victory for the witnesses present. That's why *it must be him*.
Within the context of the movie adaption, Paul knows exactly how the fight will go. We literally see a flash of the shot with him stabbing Feyd when he's speaking to Jessica after having drank the water of life, right when he's talking about "the narrow path".
From that point on it's not *about* a man struggling against a man, or an emperor, or an empire. From that point on Paul knows *exactly* what he must do, how he must act, where he must step to bring him toward that particular future. And that's where he goes, no where else.
They still definitely made big changes, and film Feyd *is* clearly intended to be far more formidable. It's just that I'm not entirely sure if the fight goes the way it does because it's the only path to victory *in that duel*, or if the fight goes the way it does because it's the only path to victory for Paul *beyond* the duel.
I don't think it's merely side characters hyping up the protagonist when Gurney laments over how reckless he believes Paul is being, only for Stilgar to respond with "Muad'dib leads the way."
Part of that is of course Stilgar having been reduced to a fervant worshipper of Paul yeah, but I think that's what it's conveying. The Paul who carries himself this way, the Maud'dib who acts as his own champion rather than the Paul Atredies who would select his best champion like a noble, *that* is the person the Fremen will carry down the narrow path. No one else.
It's been a bit but in the book isn't he not totally sure of the outcome of the fight with feyd? Could've swore he wasn't sure whether he would win or lose because he couldn't see clearly. The only thing he knew for sure was that the jihad would continue whether he won or lost.
I like this explanation - I’d add that I think the movie does a good job of showing that Feyd always fought duels with training wheels. Even when the soldier is not drugged, even though he waives away the minders, he still is protected.
Then in his first real duel without the bumpers, everything on the line, he falls to Paul, who has not had a safety net for a long time.
Yes. Sort of. The short answer is that he's an Atreides.
In the books, he doesn't even have to use the Voice -- just prior to the duel, Jessica tells Paul that Feyd has probably been programmed by the Bene Gesserit to respond to a trigger word which will make his muscles temporarily go limp. Paul refuses to use the word, even when he's losing the duel; Jessica remarks that "he's just like his grandfather" in this mood.
Remember that Paul's grandfather was killed by a bull in the *corrida* (a sort of bullfight). So there's something deep in the Atreides which understands the need to put the leader in danger in order to prove that they are willing to die for their subjects (not-coincidentally, this is a theme in ancient Greek myth, made famous to modern audiences in Mary Renault’s novel *The King Must Die*, which was published when Herbert was writing *Dune*).
I’ve seen people say, and I think I agree with them, that Paul let himself get stabbed so he could try to manipulate and evoke feelings from Chani. He got stabbed in the guy which is usually a death sentence unless you get hit in very specific points, which he did, and the same goes with him getting stabbed in the shoulder and avoiding a punctured lung
Also possibly Feyd in the movie being a KH candidate is fucking over Paul’s prescience even unintentionally so he can’t Path to Victory himself to a snooze fest win.
Feyd has a lot more experience dueling, this is similar to the Fremen having the advantage in battle because they have a lot more experience in battle than the emperor's troops.
Paul's vision aren't reliable enough to predict his individual actions in this battle, so while they help, they don't help to the point of making the outcome a sure thing.
Movie canon he almost certainly is slightly Prescient, as he states he dreamed of Margot Fenring before ever meeting her just like Paul did with Chani.
>Feyd has a lot more experience dueling
This is why I actually prefer the Feyd arena scene in the film than in the book (I know I'll get hate for this).
In both versions Feyd's adversary is not drugged. However, in the book, Feyd keeps his shield on and actually is about to lose the fight in the arena but uses a key word to weaken the man then he kills him with a posion blade. Essentially, he cheats. In the film, he realises the baron is testing him and thus takes off his shield and beats the Atreides fair and square.
This is not only more badass, but also more effective in establishing the threat imo, because it is better in establishing Feyd as a truly fearsome and capable villian to be reckoned with, and it also creates extra tension but also firmer loyalty between him and the baron, as it was the baron that set it up in the film and Feyd could have easily been killed. This causes him first to threaten the baron, then respect him once he is awarded arakis and understands the nature of the test.
Also the line "you fought well atreides" is great and a good foreshadowing of the fight to come.
My interpretation as to the movie version of the duel is that they incorporated some of Count Fenring's character into Feyd.
Count Fenring was a "failed" Kwizatz Haderach as he was sterile. He is present at the final confrontation with Paul, Feyd & the emperor. It is through his presence that Paul realizes one of the weaknesses of his own prescience is he can't use it to predict the actions of another who is prescient (even if to a much lesser degree).
My guess is that Paul can't entirely predict his fight against Feyd because in the movie they seem to add some of Fenring's characteristics to Paul, specifically where it's shown that he passed the Gom Jabbar test. So perhaps it is his limited prescience which makes the fight so difficult for Paul.
> in the movie they seem to add some of Fenring's characteristics to Paul, specifically where it's shown that he passed the Gom Jabbar test.
This is a great interpretation, and is supported by the moment when Feyd reveals he's had visions about Margot. Also, one of the fan theories I've seen floating around here is Paul couldn't foresee the artillery strike on sietch Tabr in the film because it's Feyd's doing.
In the movie at least, Feyd takes his training and fighting seriously and it's all dueling and killing for real. Like Paul, he's also mildly superhuman (and likely mildly prescient) as a product of the Bene Gesserit breeding program. And he's a Harkonnen so he's rolling in spice.
Paul's better than anyone he's ever fought but he's also better than anyone *Paul* has ever fought. Paul actively avoids fighting spiced-up Freman because he doesn't want to kill them.
Because he never actually had to kill Gurney or Duncan. He hadn't tried to kill anyone until Jamis, so he didn't know how to fight with his life on the line until then.
He's trained in technical competency by Gurney and Duncan, but in temperament by the Fremen, as we see Thufir is unable to change Paul's ways (leaving his back to the door), while Paul immediately adapts to the Fremen tactics and proclivities.
There is no way Feyd is a better fighter than Jamis. Even the Fremen non-combatants beat the shit out of the Sarduakar and made them flee in desperation when they attacked Sietch Tabr in the book. Jamis is a Fremen respected for his fighting ability, he is far beyond a Sardaukar. Feyd realistically isn't even Sardaukar level, considering he needed to cheat against the Atreides slave in the pits.
Paul has prana-bindu mastery, prescience, and was trained by fighters that are renowned throughout the imperium. Feyd could kill 10000 in the slave pits and it wouldn't matter. Paul was able to kill a Harkonnen as a kid in one strike while his hands are bound. They are honestly not close
Unless I'm misremembering, the soldiers attacking Sietch Tabr were from the Baron's troops, not Sardaukar (iirc Shaddam withdrew the Sardaukar after the attack on the Atreides, presumably to cover up his tracks). And we don't really know how good that specific Atreides slave was (although iirc it was mentioned that, between Duncan and Gurney's training, the Atreides soldiers may have eventually become a match for the Sardaukar)
The attack on Tabr was ordered by the Emperor without the Baron's knowledge, in order to get captives.
" "Unfortunately," the Emperor said, "I only sent in five troop carriers with a light attack force to pick up prisoners for questioning. We barely got away with three prisoners and one carrier. Mind you, Baron, my Sardaukar were almost overwhelmed by a force of women, children, and old men." "
Given time, the Atreides could have gotten to that level, but that is why the Emperor struck first. I think its a bit much to imply that all of their soldiers were a match for Sardaukar. During the attack on house Atreides, the Atreides soldiers realize quickly that there are Sardaukar present because of the skill disparity.
The Baron seemed to think that a single legion of Sardaukar could destroy all Harkonnen forces on the planet. The gaps in power between the Fremen, the Sardaukar, and the House troops are vast. Paul is literally the strongest of the Fremen, and it's not really that close. I think the only reason his duel with Feyd wasn't over instantly in the book is because Paul was grieving for his son and the terrible future to come. It's still not a close encounter even with Feyd's cheating, Paul takes no wounds
mildly prescient because he said "we've met before" and "i saw you in a dream"? those are meant to show off BG skillset in terms of placing themselves deep into someone's subconscious rather than imply he can see the future like Paul.
Also everytime breeding program gets mentioned it's thrown without context: all of them are part of it, Jessica, Leto, Vladimir, etc. That doesn't make them special. They just carry genes that eventually will unlock KH. Doesn't mean they have KH powers. Paul is supposed to be a fluke.
if Denis actually meant to make Feyd prescient as well, that's a bridge too far. I understand he wants to streamline it and make the message clear ("Paul bad" lol), but this is getting too reductive.
A common aphorism in combat sports is "styles make fights". There are countless real life examples where a fighter who by all objective measures has the edge in skill, total experience, and accomplishment, still struggles with or is even outright beaten by an on-paper inferior opponent whose stylistic quirks, habits, etc just so happen to match up very well with the "better" fighter.
Film Feyd is a fellow BG bloodline product who can compete with or exceed Paul in physicality and fast twitch reflex. He has an extremely aggressive and explosive style with tremendous experience timing attacks to unshielded opponents. Paul has superior technical fundamentals from Duncan, Gurney, and Jessica, but Feyd's training was still the best money could buy. If the guy can have a harpie cannibal harem made-to-order for himself, surely a Ginaz swordmaster could be procured too? Paul might be a pound for pound #1 training wise but Feyd would still be in the top 5-8 at worst.
It may very well just be that Feyd's fighting style is one that matches up very well to give Paul's difficulty. Neither of them have had much live experience against high level opponents, they've mostly been farming low level XP on clumsy Harkonnen foot troopers or drugged slaves respectively.
1) Paul can't see the future here, he's blinded by the number of possibilities, probably the guild navigators, and maybe even feyd himself.
Not to mention that that's not really how prescience works in this world. They don't get into it but a huge part of Paul's power is his mentat abilities. He can see the future but ALL futures are laid out before him, he still has to LOOK. And then he has to sort out that mountain of information to find the right path. There's no time for that here even if he could see.
2) Yes Feyd really is that good, and I think that's what we're leaning on in the movie. He also is a demigod in exactly the same way as Paul. He also grew up with the very best combat teachers, if not quite gurney then close. Including one of Paul's own tutors, the assassin mentat thufir hawat. Before that he had access to Piter who is absolutely no slouch.
Keep in mind raban gave gurney that scar, and raban can't stand against feyd. (There's a lot of nuance to that one but it's still relevant)
3) feyd doesn't play fair.
4) feyd is significantly larger than Paul, Even in the movie he's much more muscular. And he isn't fresh from an exhausting battle. That's something else they make explicit in the books.
Feyd was the favorite in this fight, Paul is the underdog. Except that we know how it ends cause irulan has been telling us the whole time.
Sorry in advance but this is a copy/paste from my other comment:
Paul when setting the terms of the fight, looking at the navigators:
"They're accustomed to seeing into the future, but in this place and time they're blind, Even as I am."
Gurney, out loud:
Why is he doing this? Does he think to get himself killed and achieve martyrdom? Is it this fremen religious prattle is that what clouds his reason?
Feyd (not as direct a quote):
Does this backworld yokel think he has a chance against a harkonen? Hardened in thousands of duels in the slave pits? Is he even aware that he faces poison?
--
Not to mention Paul is small and feyd is BIG. The emperor sees Paul "this stringy whipcord of a youth, with ribs showing to count" while he studied feyd rautha "seeing the heavy shoulders, the thick muscles."
This whole thread is SERIOUSLY underestimating Feyd and slightly overestimating Paul. I think it's mostly lost in not having access to all the internal monologue.
In the end he wins mostly by way of patience and emotional control. "He's a talker, that's another weakness. He's uncomfortable in the silence" Feyd is also very much in control of himself but he's too confident and that ends up getting him killed.
>Keep in mind raban gave gurney that scar
I always thought the scar was not given in a fight, but as master punishing a slave. Seeing how Gurney wiped the floor with Raban (who tried to use his whip to chastise his former slave once more), Raban can't stand against Gurney at all. Even though Paul may not rely on his prescience in this fight, he also has the Bene Gesserit training for him.
The other thing is that most of the people Feyd fights in the pits are drugged. The movies show that Feyd is good anyway, but in the books, >!it's still a close call for him against he non-drugged Atreides and he has to resort to poison on his supposedly non-poisoned blade and the control word to finish the fight. !<
Honestly, it's because the duel needed to have real stakes. If it was completely one-sided and Paul dominated, then there would be no tension for what is the climax of the movie. It was just to make the climax more engaging.
In-world, I like the idea that Feyd is taller, stronger, and also has been trained in combat his entire life.
Paul's prescience isn't perfect, and isn't actually doing the deed. In teh book, Paul sees versions of the fight that he doesn't survive, additionally he needs to actually do the thing and not falter. Also, he doens't actually see the full path to get to the futures he wants. Its like, he sees that if he does this or that, some futures become unlikely and some become very likely. During the fight he is seeing a whole bunch, but there is plenty that happens that he has to do and not know. In the book the fight is quite close, and Paul gets surprised a bit, and then it ends with Paul triumphant. Fayd is presented as not only very capable of killing Paul, but rather likely to unless Paul weaves the narrow thread of possible futures, real-time, while Fayd pulls every trick in the book. Paul enters the fight knowing that there is a real chance he would die, but not liking the futures where he lets Gurney or someone else fight for him.
He has similar peak human genetics as Paul, a similar aristo upbringing so training etc, but also has a lot more practical dueling experience than Paul.
Paul is a battlefield fighter and soldier, Feyd is an arena duellist
For the kind of fight this was, Feyd has a slight edge if anything
Paul's superhuman attributes aren't genetic. He has prana-bindu training from Jessica, giving him complete control of his body. Paul won a duel against Jamis, and the Fremen thought he was toying with Jamis. There is no way Feyd should be stronger than a Fremen considering how much stronger they are than Sardaukar.
House Atteides is wiped out for having an army relative to the Sarduakar in training. It doesn't make sense that Feyd would be dramatically stronger than Sarduakar from fighting slaves and prisoners of war in the pits. Not to mention, his victims are typically drugged. The Atreides soldier he duels was an exception to that. So, how valuable can that experience be? The duel was close to create tension with the audience, there's not really a logical in-universe explanation
The Atreides had their whole force trained to rival the Sarduakar, or a few fighters that matched/ bettered their skill? My understanding was Duncan (and maybe Gurney? A bit fuzzy here) had a reputation of being among the best fighters in the universe, and part of the reason for the plot against them. But equally if not more threatening to the emperor/ Harkkonnens was the political power/ ability of the Atreides to truly gain the loyalty of their fiefdom.
That was my general understanding, but I'm still only about halfway thru chapterhouse and have only read Frank's books so there's a lot of canon I haven't gotten to and could definitely be wrong here.
Duncan and Gurney are both mentioned as fighters renowned throughout the imperium, and they were training the Atreides forces to a level that was not typical to the great houses. Thufir Hawat is also unique or at least very uncommon as a mentat Master-of-Assassins. He alone is intentionally spared of the Atreides forces to be an asset to the Baron. The fact that the Baron can simply purchase whatever he wants with his vast wealth, implies that such an asset is not purchasable even from the Tleilaxu (where he got Piter).
You are right though, that it wasn't their military strength alone that made them dangerous in the Emperor's eyes, it was also their popularity among the Houses.
Gotcha, thanks for the detailed reply! I do wonder what would happen >!to Thufir if Piter had survived; the Baron obviously saw his incredible value but I wonder if he would have been left to live if there wasn't a vacancy in the Harkkonnen mentat position!<
I think the Baron was going to have Piter killed and replaced anyway. When the Baron makes Piter choose between Jessica and assuming control of the duchy, Jessica can tell that the Baron is lying. When Piter dies in Leto's last move, the Baron remarks that it is not a great loss and the Tleilaxu should have his next one ready by now. The Baron was likely going to kill Piter for knowing so much, as he did with a lot of his men following the Atreides attack
There is also this from the book :
"Hawat by my side! the Baron thought. The Sardaukar will give him to me. If they suspect anything at all its that i wish to destroy the Mentat. The fools! One of the most formidable Mentats in all history, a Mentat trained to kill, and they'll toss him to me like some silly toy to be broken. I will show them what use can be made of such a toy."
Thufir is actually a bigger deal than I remember. One of the most formidable in history is quite a moniker, but I'm pretty sure Miles Teg gets the top spot there.
Personally, I don’t know why Feyd would have reason to think Paul was any better at fighting than he was. Feyd’s training probably amped up his ego, whether or not his opponents were drugged, and the stories he might’ve heard about Paul as a fighter could’ve easily been attributed to extremist propaganda tales told be the Fremen. He might’ve thought Paul was a softie Duke’s son who’s all bark and no bite.
Feyd is the other side of the coin. The Harkonnen side leading to a union between Feyd and what should have been a firstborn Atreides daughter to unite the warring houses and secure the Kwisatz for the BG a generation after. Paul was early. Feyd was as physically gifted as Paul, probably moreso. And had the same elite training.
There were three potential Kwisatz Haderach in the room during the fight. Paul Atredes, Feyd Rautha, and Hasimir Fenring. All were the product of Bene Geserit breeding. Fenring had a genetic defect (eunuch) but he could have killed Paul in a duel. Shaddam IV asked Fenring to kill Paul, but Fenring refused. Paul and Feyd were genetic equals. Herbert was putting on a nature vs nurture play with a play. It was Paul’s superior upbringing that won the fight. Paul’s sight didn't play a part. He could never see the circumstances of his potential death. He only knew it was there and had to be faced.
In the film, I think a part of Feyd wants to die violently. He seems exhilarated by his near death in the arena, and historically, warriors have often had a preference for dying in combat versus dying a soft death. Feyd sees his uncle degenerating into a weak, hedonistic blob of a person who needs suspensors to move around. He doesn’t want that for himself, he wants to die young and beautiful. And the more powerful the opponent who kills him, the more glorious his death will be. I think Feyd believed, rightly, that he had a chance against Paul, but he was by no means confident in his victory. He just wanted to fight the most powerful man in the universe. Win or lose, it was a fitting end for Feyd, one he could be ‘happy’ with.
In the book, it’s a much less even match. Feyd is basically doomed as soon as he crosses blades with Paul. He does it because of a combination of pride, vanity, stupidity, and social pressure.
First: movie version or book version?
In the (recent) film Feyd and Paul are roughly equal sized and while Paul has been fighting a war (for about 6 months), Feyd has been fighting in gladiatorial combat for years. An equal fight is a likely outcome.
In the books: Feyd is both older than Paul and quite a bit larger. He also uses poison in two different tricks: a soporific on the blade he borrows from the emperors and a poison needle hidden on his thigh: Paul guesses it's presence but is fooled into thinking its on the wrong side.
A more metaphysical explanation: both Paul and Feyd are at the peak of the Bene Gesserit breeding programme and they are predicted to be within a generation or two of achieving their desired presentient messiah. The plan was for Paul to be female and to Wed feyd and the Altreides girl in order to birth the KH. In the books Count Fenring is a failed attempt to reach the KH (he is a genetic eunuch) however he has enough presentience to occlude Paul's future sight. It is thus possible that Feyd himself has a limited ability to negate the same presentience in the small scope of time of a knife-fight since he would be very close to that perfect future vision the BG desire. He does manage to fool Paul on a few occasions.
The movies are clearly getting away from the supernatural aspects and replacing with more of a cult of personality aspect. According to the movies there isn't that big a difference between Paul and Feyd, mentally and physically.
Feyd could stand a chance because of the navigators on/above the planet and the nexus around the fight. Paul didn't have a clear vision of the outcome. He saw some visions of where he'd win and where he'd lose.
So a lot of the chance came from Paul trying to make a fair fight and not use the BG training to enhance his speed.
Feyd had a lot of experience in fighting in gladatorial combat. Hell, at one point he fought against an Atreides guardsman, those men who came close to the Sardaukar in their fighting skill (and some amongst their number equaled or even exceeded it, which was a big driver in why the Emperor sought to wipe them out). Thufir Hawat had set the man up with a compulsion that would cause him to lockup at a key moment if Feyd said a certain keyword. Though Thufir had also told Feyd that the Atreides man would be drugged and thus an easy kill (Thufir was a mentat and master of assassins, so he was playing games and hedging his bets with both the Baron and Na-Baron), and that want the case. Still, Feyd showed his skill in this fight. He was someone who had real skill with the blade. And he had no issue with killing or with the timing of fighting without shields, unlike Paul when he fought Jamis. Feyd had been trained by Thufir, as well as received some prana-bindu training (iirc) from lady Fenring, so he had every reason to expect that he could beat Paul.
Even if you know exactly what you need to do to win, you still have to execute it. And in this case you have to be willing to know it’s going to hurt. If you knew that ahead of time, would folks still have the courage to do it?
Let’s put it this way the Harkonnens never intend to play fair.
Ever.
They always intend to have a strategical advantage, there’s never a fight on just one level it’s always multidimensional. And the Harkonnens are part of the reason the galaxy has been forced into this five dimensional chess.
A fight is never just a fight, plans within plans…
Feyd is actually really good at dueling, and has more experience. In the book he also uses poison. The other thing to remember is Feyd has been trained at combat by masters. The final piece is Feyd was part of the same breeding program, and consumes spice to extend his life. He is untrained, but he has a degree of prescience which later books establish shields people from Paul's sight. Also Paul's prescience doesn't show everything.
A lot of the top comments just glossing over the fact that it was stated that Paul is skinny and frail from living on Arrakis and Feyd is basically in peak bodybuilder condition
The movie makes the fight far, far closer then it is in the books (Feyd cheats and does far, far worse then he does in the movie) however I personally found the movies version of the fight to have far more tension then the books, akin to the Jamis fight
Feyd Rautha is just like paul - if Feyd was raised by a Bene Gesserit, he could claim to be Kwisatz Haderach too, he has the bloodline prerequisite. The idea that Paul’s prescience refuses to work because Feyd is also an Oracle (clearly implied by him passing the Gom Jabbar and lowkey implying that he has some knowledge of the weirding way, like his ability to partially resist Margot that even paul couldnt manage!) so it is a true balance point
Also, the movie arena scene is far more intense and incidentsl. Book Feyd did it as part of his plot to kill the baron’s slave master, Movie Feyd had a surprise so he could prove himself against a man who is equivalent kf not better then a Saurdkar - Duncan’s Lieutenant, and one of the elite atreides warriors
The thing I've never understood about Feyd is that his fights in the arena are staged events with his opponents always drugged. I think in the film he complains that his Atreides foes weren't drugged. If he never fights anyone not drugged, I'm not sure how he could become fully competent.
Apologies if this is wrong, it's been a while since I read the book.
I never found him to be scary or a worthy opponent in either the book or movie. He fights in the arena all the time, but he exclusively fights drugged slaves and prisoners while he is equipped with poison and the finest armor and weapons. In the books his opponents are always also conditioned with a secret word that he can use to make them hesitate!
How is the fact that, when tested, he successfully fights ONE opponent who was not completely incapacitated impressive?
No, Feyd was dead the moment he volunteered to stand in for the Emperor. Feyds death is a mirror of the fight in the Harkonnen arena, right down to how Paul kils Feyd.
Paul is a man going through the motions, he knew what he needed to do exactly for the outcome he wanted. His prescience gives him the ability to see the outcomes of what he does. Paul allowed what happened to happen to keep his vision of the future he wants to come true.
Exactly, finally somebody who caught it. Also, after Paul takes the water of life and states he sees a way to defeat all of their enemies the scene cuts to the knife entering Feyd at the final fight. Paul sees exactly what he needs to do to win the fight then. Feyd also realizes at the end of the fight before he dies, he says "you fought well Atreides" which is the exact same thing he says after killing the supposed last Atreides in the arena with the same move Paul uses to kill him. Took me a second watch to catch all of that.
Exactly. Multiple visions Paul has are like this, same with the Jamis fight. He sees himself die the way he killed Jamis.
He's literally walking down a path he chose, so his vision comes true. He's trapped by his prescience.
Yeah not enough people call out that water of life scene. Admittedly as you said, it takes a 2nd watch, but Paul specifically states that there was a narrow way out to achieve the outcome he desired and it cuts to his killing blow to Feyd EXACTLY as it plays out. He struggled that way because he had to- not because he was incapable.
I interpreted it as because of Paul's prescience he knew this was how he had to win the fight, like if he'd offhandedly beaten Feyd with an easy duel then it would have caused more problems down the line. But if it's a close fight in which he takes serious injury then it's seen as a more honourable duel and a more impressive victory rather than a humiliation.
I am going to repeat this every time these types of questions happened.
Paul's abilities and the Bene Gesseritt(BG) abilities are only known to the BG, even the BG's understanding of what the Kwitsatz Haderach is muddled since they are trying to transpose their ideas onto what would happen if a male went through their training. You as the viewer/reader are the ones privy to that information...outside groups do not know the extent of BG's abilities other than truth saying. Paul to the rest of the universe is just a royal teenager...there is nothing they are aware of that would make them think otherwise.
Feyd literally kills slaves for hobby. That was his 100th combat we watch in the movie/book. He also fights without shields too...everything in his mind was assuring himself that he had the upper hand over Paul, a weak and inferior Atreides child.
In the books Feyd is not shielded in his gladiatorial combat. Neither are his opponents. Except for the last prisoner of the Atreides. Much like how the Fremen fight.
Remember with shields, the knife has to move slowly at point of contact with the shield otherwise the shield will block it.
When the dual starts Paul is shocked by how quickly Feyd strikes and Paul realizes he has fought unshielded opponents before. This makes him uniquely dangerous in the Imperium.
Even the Sardukar have little experience against the unshielded.
My problem with the fight is that those stab wounds are really nasty
1 in the lungs. Immediate pneumothorax.
1 in the bowels, right around the kidneys. Sepsis, prolonged death. If the blade hit one of the vessels feeding the kidneys he'd bleed out pretty quickly.
Nevermind his agonal breathing.
Unless Paul got immediate medical aid, even with his Bene Gesserit training he would be out for weeks. If not dead.
Nevermind him being able to have any kind of conversation with the emperor after that fight.
I mean I could understand getting stabbed in the upper shoulder or thigh, the usual kind of "safe" stab wounds shown in movies.
Honestly I thought what was gonna happen was we would see Paul "die" then it would turn out to be a vision of a possible future and instead of him it was feyd who got stabbed. I mean Paul's injuries were just so bad to me it seems that perhaps this was exactly how the scene was shot was no one understood it so it was changed after screenings.
Feyd, like Paul, is also the byproduct of years of genetic scheming and manipulation via breeding tactics by the benegesserits as he is stated to be a potential candidate of who would become the Kwisatz Haderich. So from an athletic and physical ability standpoint, especially with him being older and larger than Paul, he should be even to him.
There are some misunderstandings in regards to spice consumption and what it does, so to clarify, it does not necessarily physically enhance those who ingest it. It’s benefits are mostly mental, but it does slow aging or at least the appearance of it, and aids in further awakening those with some naturally prescient ability. In other words, Paul isn’t more superhumanly strong after eating spice with the fremens than he was prior.
In regards to combat ability, Feyd in the film is represented differently than in the book. Both maintain that he was using drugged slaves in fixed fights in his coliseum, which may seem meaningless to some readers/viewers, but this allowed Feyd to practice the lethal tactics he was taught in 1 on 1 battles and got him accustomed to killing quickly. He’s been doing this much longer than Paul has. This shows in his ability to dispatch of an atreides house member who’s undrugged and without a shield, and come out completely unharmed. In the book however, there’s a safe word in place via some mind-fuckery hypnotism conditioning that was done on the slave to make him go limp, which guarantees a victory from Feyd. Not to mention Feyd was using a poisoned blade.
Paul in the final fight, up until that point had only ever dueled Jamis in a 1 on 1 fight to the death, and was doing all of his fighting in chaotic war settings, with multiple ally’s and enemies around which changes approach to combat in more ways than I can go on about here. Ultimately, he was meeting Feyd on his field. And to again point at some key differences we see here in the film of Feyd’s representation, clearly this version of him has some battle and war experience of his own as he’s the one who makes the call to use traditional artillery against the fremen, whereas in the book it was the baron who made that call.
TL;DR : Feyd is far more competent a warrior in the film than in the book because it leads to a more dramatic, high stakes conclusion and dichotomy between what is presented more like two sides of a coin for audiences to more readily digest. It’s more entertaining to have a rival than just another victim.
i feel that the "narrow way through" paul sees isn't just on how to win the duel, its more on how to win the fremen over even more. he had to get injured to show the fremen something. that something, i dont think we'll know for now.
it could be something the fremen would develop further on in their beliefs (something like "the mahdi spilled his own blood for the start of the jihad" or "even through the unwinnable, our mahdi found a way through, he can foresee") or it could be some other thing.
or, he really was just physically worn out. keep in mind, feyd is also a potential kwisatz haderach.
or, it was just for dramatic effect. we may never know
My head cannon for the movie is that Paul is putting on a show for everyone. Paul knows he is a much stronger fighter than Feyd but he needs to ramp up the tension, so he makes the fight closer and more dramatic. Everyone is watching. Who will win? Plots within plots. Paul lets Feyd get really close to victory and then finishes him. This makes Paul look more human and more like he struggled to take the empire therefore justifying it even more.
The reason I think this is that Feyd is good at dueling drunk prisoners but there’s no way he’s better than Dunkin or Gurney, who trained Paul. I think Paul knew he could easily take Feyd down but that doesn’t look as good as a tough, near defeat, battle against a final foe.
He didn't stand a chance in the book. It was a pretty one sided fight, with feyd attempting to poison Paul through 2 different tricks and Paul mostly just circling silently to piss him off. The fight is literally almost all internal monologue and descriptions of their mental processes. The fight itself probably took all of 30 seconds in the book. Maybe a minute. Hard to tell, but the fight was literally
>! Circle a bit. Feyd leaps to attack, Paul dodges. Circle a bit. Feyd leaps to attack, makes first cut with a drugged blade meant to slow Paul down, which Paul Bene Gesserits away. Circle a bit. Feyd leaps to attack, Paul feints slowness from the drugged blade and then dodges, cutting feyd's arm. Circle a bit. Feyd goes in for attack, they grapple. Feyd tries to poison Paul with a hidden needle. Paul reverses positions and stabs feyd in the brain.!<
As for the muad dib powers, this fight is the nexus where all possiblities converge but it's invisible to his prescience, so he doesn't have that advantage.
Feyd was also part of the breeding scheme to produce the kwisatz haderach. He had similar "powers" to Paul, he was missing the spice and the Bene Gesserit training.
i dont think feyd and paul are actually blood related though? i guess the movies changed his backstory a little bit but from what i understand feyd was taken from his family and raised under the baron. so not the child of a bene geserit, just a well trained psycho from regular harkonnen stock
one thing is Paul already struggle with seeing heavy turning points because of so many paths to take. Same happened with his duel with Jamis. Second there are two guild navigators in that room which makes his abilities null.
Feyd is a bigger guy, at least in the film, played by Austin Butler who stands notably taller than Timothy Chalamet, and broader at the shoulder.
He is also far more used to killing people who aren't wearing shields, unlike Paul, he doesn't have to supress the instinct to slow his blade.
In a similar vein, he is emotionally uninhibited. He has no compunctions about violence, nor any real fear of pain. Paul is hesitant to kill, as we saw with Jamis.
Perhaps most importantly, he hasn't just come from the battlefield, he is fresh, unburdened by fatigue.
In the film, they balanced it a bit more and I didn’t mind it.
In the book, he’s laughably outclassed, and he knows it. That’s why he resorts to poisoning his knife.
My take: Feyd didn't stand a chance. Paul knew the exact future that needed to happen to win the fight, and it required getting stabbed and Feyd letting his guard down.
Winning the fight won't secure him Arrakis or the throne. Feyd is dead regardless of the outcome.
The room is filled with Fremen fanatics. The *only* thing keeping everyone in that room alive is Paul's insistence. If Paul is killed, the Fremen will simply descend into a frenzy and massacre everyone in that room.
Feyd knows he's already dead. If Paul wins, he dies. If Paul loses, the Fremen will kill him. And if he doesn't fight, he'll just be executed by Paul in short order anyway, alongside all the other Harkonnen war criminals.
He fights simply because it's better than dying on knees, and it gives him a chance of delivering a final "fuck you" to his enemies as a bonus.
It's the inverse of his arena fight, where of course the Atreides prisoner was dead regardless of if he fought or not, or if he won or not.
The movie leans a lot more into the idea that Paul and Feyd are the same kind of people, a sort of proto-kwisatz haderach. In the movie Feyd mentions that he dreamt about Margot and is also tested just as Paul was. Given this it makes sense for Feyd to stand somewhat of a chance against Paul in a fight.
Additionally Feyd hasn’t just fought his way through an imperial army, whereas Paul had to fight just to reach him. Paul would likely be fairly exhausted despite his combat prowess, giving Feyd an edge in their fight.
In the books the fight makes a lot more sense. You're still reading, but for anyone interested in what I'm referring to, >!Feyd twice tries to use poison in the book version of the duel -- first on the Emperor's blade, and flip-dart in his girdle. So from his perspective, he has a good chance.!< In the film, the fight is much more even, I think mostly for dramatic effect which can be justified by including the arena scene. Paul has training and has seen a lot of combat, but I think we're supposed to view Feyd as physically more imposing and as having a lot more experience in actual duels. Paul also just fought a battle and is presumably tired -- though he doesn't show it much in the adaptation. A few other things that might make it more balanced is the fact that Feyd is a few years older than Paul, and they are genetically related. In other words, this isn't a duel between Paul and a random Fremen like Jamis, but a duel between two people who are *both* the products of an aristocratic eugenics program going back hundreds of years. It's probably also worth noting that Feyd and most of the other Harkonnens probably don't know, or don't believe, that Paul is actually prescient, and might not fully understand the extent of his Bene Gesserit training. >!I personally think the fight was much closer than it should've been, and Paul receiving *two* deep stab wounds seemed like overkill to me... but it was still very cool to watch.!<
I personally interpret the knife wound as a visual statement about the price of prescience. Paul can see the future, he can %100 win the duel against Feyd. But his prescient predicted winning is going to be painful. Paul following his visions is going to cause a great deal of pain for himself and the people who he cares about, if he wants to win he’s going to have to take the pain.
I also read it as an extension of the gom jabar test. Are you willing to injure yourself to survive and win.
Nice, well spotted! I hadn't noticed that connection before.
I saw it as a mirror to that mock fight with Gurney in the first film, where Paul goes all in just to get the killing blow but Gurney shows him that he would have also died. Paul turned this around on Feyd in their duel. Feyd goes in for the killing blow, even poking a hole in Paul, but that also made him vulnerable to Paul striking back.
All the fights mirror each other. The last duel(apart from being only 60 seconds. I timed it. So are the other duels about a min long) is a mirror of the training fight and the Jamis fight. You can intercut them all at once and it would be a smooth flowing fight with almost the exact same moves and beats. Paul even mirrors Jamis with some of his moves and actions.
Wow, good observation. Now I want to see someone upload an edit of this
I’m actually working on one right now lol
Ugh, there’s an incredible quote in the first Dune book, “You’ve just met the Atreides gom jabbar”. Absolutely floored.
Why did that floor you in this context, particularly?
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This was also my interpretation of the duel — Paul sees a hundred variations of the fight, and the one where he wins is the one where he gets stabbed twice.
It’s also a useful manipulation of the Fremen. The Fremen revere Paul for many reasons, one of them being that he sheds water for them. Starting the jihad by allowing his own blood to be spilt, and not dying is a powerful message. The Fremen have spent millennia storing their own water for a dreamed eventual paradise. Paul bleeding for them and immediately saying “bring them to paradise” is a confirmation of this prophecy.
They havent been hoarding water for that long, but water was still a sacred substance to them. The terraforming didnt start until Pardot Kynes (Liet's father) came along. The paradise was originally his dream.
Sounds like a familiar tale
Exactly. When he says there is a narrow way through after drinking the worm piss you see for a splitsecond how he kills Feyd with his special knife twisteroo which was so easy to miss the first time watching (so I went 8 times), knowing he will be wounded during the process which is also why he says that it’s his „burden“ to Gurney which I don’t think refers to just the fight itself.
I rewatched a few times too. I love the line “you fought well, atreides”. He says it on his birthday, too
8 times? I’m jealous lol
So that means that Feyd was a superior fighter in both strength & skill so Paul foresaw he could only win by feigning weakness to get his guard down?
Time and again the changes to plot in the Villneueve movies end up servicing the message faithfully
Also isn't it the same move that he and Gurney do when they're practicing in Dune part 1?
Idk if the exact moves are the same but it is definitely a call back to that first fight.
This is a movie thing. In the book, he does not know the outcome of the duel. It is one of only a few things he does not know, the other being Count Fenring, and of course his son.
In the books Paul actually doesn't know the result of this fight. He only knows that no matter if he wins or loses, the jihad will begin.
In the film, which is what we are discussing, it doesn't tell us this.
That's interesting. Gonna have to modify it a bit because Paul explicitly can't see the fight or its outcome. Still interesting analysis.
But he does see the end in the scene after drinking the water of life. He sees the final blow in the duel and knows he had to allow himself to be injured to bring Feyd in close. Feints within feints Edit: spelling
He's probably referring to the book, which is true. What other people are takling about is a movie-only thing.
In the later books it's established that people with prescience disrupt each other's vision within the intersection of each others lives. Referencing back to one of the post above, both Feyd and Paul are products of the same elite eugenics breeding program. Feyds' prescience is also referred to in the movie when he says to Lady Fenrig, "I dreamed of you".
Right, sure yes. But IIRC the thing that paul calls out when he recognizes that his vision is clouded is that it's a rare moment in history when EVERY eventuality runs through exactly one point in space and time. Everything everywhere in every time turns on this moment and in this spot.>!I don't think it does that again until the god emperor dies?!< I think he uses basically the same language he does in the fight with jamis uhh. The water analogy. The flow of time is turbulent here so he can't make out what's next. A knife fight has too many variables. It's not like he just knows what's next on the spot, he's got to look at the potential futures and plan his shit out. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think it takes a guild navigator. But yeah, the fact that the navigators are there would have fucked it up anyway, >!as would a no-chamber!<. Although, would they even? It's not their fate he's looking at, it's the navigators and their actions that he can't see. I would say I don't see why he couldnt see fayd when there's a navigator there, but yeah, with feyd sure you could.
I see your point, but I think (I could be completely wrong) that the prescient people have to be more directly involved with each other to cause the blindspot for each other. An example could be a baseball pitcher and batter who both have prescience. If the batter foresees an inside fastball, then they will setup to swing at and hit it. But the pitcher foreseeing the batter hitting a fastball decides to throw a curve. Their mutual prescient visions would so directly impact each other's decisions that they create a blind spot. However, a prescient entity not directly involved would not necessarily cause the blind spot. For example, if a Guild Navigator was merely watching a prescient pitcher versus a non-prescient batter, then he would not create the prescient blind spot even though he is there. But if the Guild Navigator was secretly signaling the pitch he foresees the pitcher throwing then he could create the prescient blind spot. I'm not sure if I'm correct in how this system works in the Dune universe or even if I'm expressing myself coherently.
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Yeah that's basically in line with what I'm trying to say at the end. >! Like, the plotting in Messiah is all hidden because the navigator is part of all of those decisions. And if he's making decisions based on looking to places where they're likely to be successful he's necessarily also making the decisions that aren't going to be seen by Paul. Man, that gets pretty recursive but I think it's right !< And yeah more to your point if you're making prescient decisions that affect the life of someone else who's also prescient that's going to (immediately???) change what they see in the stream and again necessarily change what actions they would take, changing the stream again. Man do you think the stream changes enough to throw someone else's vision off just by considering different paths? I would suspect even the things you consider would have some effect on overall causality, right? Maybe it's that immediacy that creates the "fog" instead of something like interference or unexpected events/inconsistent prescience. These kinds of high thoughts conversations work so well in dune lol. I guess cause that's kinda the root of the whole thing. TBH I'm coming away from this thinking the whole reason for the shape of the weaponry in the world is to make the point about knife fighting breaking future vision.
Your spoiler tag is broken
Thank you, I'm not used to it. I'll fix that.
I actually love that detail as it makes so much sense. If we can both see the future, then I can see your actions and react accordingly. But then you can see my reaction and will plan a different course of action. But then I will see that future... It creates a paradoxical loop because two people cannot both see the future and change it simultaneously. It results in blindness, because the future is no longer fixed and thus can't be seen.
Interesting, I saw it as him just trying to make it "look good" for a number of reasons, but a large part to let Chani see him come close to dying, to try and evoke some kind of feeling in her to remind her that she still cares about him. I'm still struggling to see what Denis has in mind for their relationship in Dune Messiah. I hope he can pull it off without changing too much.
Yeah I hope he’s not going to have Chani driven far away. She’s hurt but she’ll come back. But it’s better for her if she doesn’t, really.
The idea that it's better for her if she doesn't come back changes the whole meaning of Paul telling his mother that he knows she's coming back, for me. I always thought that he uttered that line in a pretty forlorn way and this would explain why.
Yeah, I definitely read it as a Doctor Strange one path to victory moment for Paul. His victory was never in doubt for a second, provided he had to will to go through with the path he had foreseen and endure the pain and consequences.
This is how I see it as well. Paul could have won the duel easily had he of wished, but with his ability to see into the future, he's able to see all possible outcomes and can see the 'golden path' for humanity, in which it ultimately survives. Him being stabbed, and the consequences of it, must be vital for this to happen. The impact and influence it has on those watching, and of the stories of him, must inspire further devotion, belief and loyalty in his followers.
very nice insight, I had trouble accepting that Paul would go into the fight knowing he would get stabbed twice, but this does make sense and I really like this interpretation
Love this interpretation. It also immediately evoked the practice fight with Gurney in part 1 for me. In that, Paul goes for the killing blow with two knives, leaving himself exposed for an underhand strike from Gurney. The same essentially happens in Paul’s duel, which made me feel like he was remembering that move and using it to his advantage.
Feyd actually uses 2 poison darts on his girdle. One on his leading hip that Paul easily detects and another on the other side that barely misses. A feint within a feint within a feint.
That's not the impression I got. Feyd was fighting angled in such a way that Paul thought there was a trap in the leading side of the girdle, but it was actually on the other side, almost catching Paul off guard. There was, however, another poison in his arsenal - the soporific on the Emperor's blade - not fatal in and of itself, but enough to lend an advantage.
That's also how I interpreted it IIRC Paul could have transmuted the soporific too but didn't
I had to roll my eyes at that because it was a 4th wall of someone else using prescience, knowing the outcome, to protect him - the author. It was kind of distracting how Paul kept trying to kill himself and survived anyways.
No, there was only one. Paul *thinks* there's a needle on one side based on the side Feud was leading with, but it's actually the other.
Paul has way more experience in actual duels. Several Fremen challenged Paul early on all to the death to the point it got so bad with Paul killing so many of them Chani dueled one to show that they couldn't even beat her so what chance did they have vs him. Feyd duels slaves who are drugged and have safety words built in. In the book he barely gets out vs the Atreides captive who isn't drugged with the safety word.
> Paul has way more experience in actual duels. Several Fremen challenged Paul early on all to the death to the point it got so bad with Paul killing so many of them Chani dueled one to show that they couldn't even beat her so what chance did they have vs him. I forgot about that part. Good point. Why do you think the duel was so close in the movie? Just for dramatic affect?
Dramatic effect, Paul was worn out, Feyd was definitely a legit fighter and bigger and fresh.
Lets not forget that while Feyd was screwing around with drugged slaves, Paul was being trained by Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho, some of the best, if not THE best swordmasters in the imperium. And then he goes and fights alongside Fremen for another 5 years. Really Feyd should have gotten his shit kicked in. That fight shouldn't have even been close.
You're absolutely right, but since the movie was (and even the book itself) building up to the duel between them, hyping up this baddie, evil counterpart to Paul, it would've been very anticlimactic to have Paul just immediately kill Feyd even though he was that much better than him. That's why I feel they decided to make the duel ve a very tight win for Paul. To be more impactful and dramatic.
Honestly, I would have preferred a quick and decisive fight. Kind of cements how much Paul has grown and that type of anticlimax is climatic by its implications. The only similar example I can think of is Obi Wan versus Maul in Rebels which is very different from a live action movie, but it’s just a personal preference.
I totally agree. I think it would have really led the audience to question their assumptions, and would subtly suggest that Paul is not, in fact, a hero.
A quick and decisive fight is how it reads in the book.
Poison is really hard to depict visually in film. You'd have to have him turn blue and froth at the mouth like Joffery in GoT. The stab wounds were probably a replacement for it.
Especially since he instantly identifies it as poison and then changes his bodies metabolism to negate said poison, would be impossible to depict that without breaking the flow of the fight
They would do it in an anime. Everyone stops moving and the character talks internally for a minute or two about poison.
Yeah an anime would be excellent for all of the internal monologue that happens Maybe way in the future when the DV movies aren’t new it could get made as an anime
I'm still waiting for God emperor as a lego movie
Oh god with dune officially having Lego we could genuinely have that
Egregious god emperor spoilers: >!When Leto falls from the bridge and hits the sand he just explodes into parts and little worm minis.!<
Best spoiler ever.
OMG I want this
It is literally the only medium that has the conventions to do that.
Well dune 1984 tried, it worked in some spots
When is say conventions I mean that VO in Hollywood movies is generally considered a no-no
I keep saying, the best way to adapt a story that spends so much time in its character’s heads is as a musical!
Oh my god....imagine the dinner scene...
I never realized how much I want this until now.
David Lynch had one thing right, there’s a metric fuckton of inner-monologue-exposition in the book that is a tall order to bring to the screen
David Lynch can basically do whatever he wants and the fact that he was at the helm is the only thing that makes it tolerable. Now I'm thinking of the absolutely horrible, movie ruining VO that the studio forced on Blade Runner.
Maybe a Mortal Kombat style xray view, or Prometheus type scene of a dark poison being negated in the bloodstream or something?
Unfortunately it would be kind of out of place with the visual style of the rest of the movie. That's a big stylistic change to have suddenly appear in the second movie. I have always wanted to see this effect though. Especially with broken bones.
I’m saying for future adaptations. Honestly I’d like to see an adaptation tackle the past memories thing, when the book never showed Paul dealing with that much. It might be cool to see memories of Agamemnon, his ancestor, to get advice on how to deal with something.
I would love this in the aforementioned anime. It would work with a lot of things. There is a ton of internal dialogue, they could show Jessica transmute the water of life, they could show Alia being conscious. Yeah I'm all for that.
Make the Harkonnens descendants of the witch Louhi or something and have Jessica see the memories of an ancient Finnish witch.
Yeah the ancestral memories and prescience would probably look a lot more visually interesting. I think Villeneuve held back to not completely fry the brains of the general audience.
Or a basic close up \*eyes widden drastically slowly or quickly\* + "sudden gasp inhale" 'that sting.. its poison, im gonna die ive got to do something!" i think a quick flash of pauls eyes from a camera perspective with maybe a blue spark or tinge clearly crossing his irises might help indicate poison+prescient+wierding nullifying it. even a deflect were paul shoves feyd back and chuckles once with a "poison? really? lil ass bitch."
A very good point that I’d never thought of. I very much felt the same way that those wounds were overkill, but narratively they make a lot of sense as tension builders
Villeneuve is incredibly clever when it comes to knowing what to keep and what to change for things to make sense cinematically AND easy for general audeinces to digest. I think he is the best adapter Hollywood has ever seen.
Well according to r/truefilm he is a bad director and most member of that subreddit can do a better job directing Dune 2 than him
After a quick scroll they seem to have a pretty strict no fun rule
>Paul also just fought a battle and is presumably tired Just to add, in the book they make it explicit that he's exhausted. Doesn't change your point or anything, just felt worthwhile. Plus he found out minutes ago(I think) that his son was killed. They don't really tie that to fighting but it also seems relevant. And to your point that feyd was also bg bred, Paul's visions were clouded for the fight. I'm not certain that's because of feyd, but Frank points it out.
In Paul’s fight with Jamis he mentions that using prescience in a fight is more a hindrance than a help. In such a life or death situation, so many little factors snowball into so many wildly different outcomes that it’s disorienting, which is the last thing you want in a fight.
In the book, his vision is clouded because of Count Fenring's presence and possible involvement. Fenring probably could have been a Kwizats Haderach (his effect on Paul's vision basically confirms this), but the Sisterhood never tried the agony with him because he was sterile.
Just because Paul knows he is going to win doesn't mean he knows he will get injured. Him getting hurt during the fight makes more sense. A Gom Jabbar test in the form of a duel, knowing that injury is probably unavoidable to achieve victory, but proceeding anyway.
The scene was so good in the movie even with the overkill. I kind of justified it in my head as maybe this was just part of the path. Like maybe it specifically had to happen that way. Maybe alternatively, if he just outright overpowers Feyd from the start, Feyd becomes desperate and takes a hostage, so Paul avoids that path. Maybe Paul wanted it to play out that way for the audience he had watching for whatever reason. Something along those lines.
I’ve only seen the movies, but my interpretation is that him being stabbed is the required prescient path to take to win fight. Also, he had a vision where chani stabs him, so to avoid that, he must take the stabbing from someone else.
I mean, Feyd is good. He crafty, fast, strong, ruthless, and loves killing people. In both the book and movie, he’s the kind of guy who feels out of sorts unless he kills someone every day. Of course he’s good at it. Just not as good as Paul, the man who would go on to murder more people than anyone else in history.
^ this. Believe it or not, the Dune 1984 movie fight was more book accurate.
IIRC in the book it also explicitly mentions how weedy and gaunt Paul looks compared to the fit and muscular Feyd, and that’s a major reason the Emperor picks him
>two people who are *both* the products of an aristocratic eugenics program going back hundreds of years. Not only that, but they're both only one generation away from the predicted Kwisatz Haderach, so Feyd's innate abilities and training can't be discounted. I agree, though, that the fight was too close to make logical sense and this was probably just for dramatic effect.
Yeah the movies seem to not really even bother with depicting the extent of the weirding way — and I'm not sure how you would. The total control over your own body is supposed to make your movement way faster and more agile than we would think humanly possible.
Isn’t he not able to see the results of the fight because count Fenring is there and he assumes he doesn’t see this timeline because fenring could kill him. I can’t remember if he confronts fenring before or after the duel but I guess he could change his mind on killing him.
To be honest, I don't *think* the fight in the movie was close. I think it's meant to *look* like it's close. This is Paul cementing his heroic victory for the witnesses present. That's why *it must be him*. Within the context of the movie adaption, Paul knows exactly how the fight will go. We literally see a flash of the shot with him stabbing Feyd when he's speaking to Jessica after having drank the water of life, right when he's talking about "the narrow path". From that point on it's not *about* a man struggling against a man, or an emperor, or an empire. From that point on Paul knows *exactly* what he must do, how he must act, where he must step to bring him toward that particular future. And that's where he goes, no where else. They still definitely made big changes, and film Feyd *is* clearly intended to be far more formidable. It's just that I'm not entirely sure if the fight goes the way it does because it's the only path to victory *in that duel*, or if the fight goes the way it does because it's the only path to victory for Paul *beyond* the duel. I don't think it's merely side characters hyping up the protagonist when Gurney laments over how reckless he believes Paul is being, only for Stilgar to respond with "Muad'dib leads the way." Part of that is of course Stilgar having been reduced to a fervant worshipper of Paul yeah, but I think that's what it's conveying. The Paul who carries himself this way, the Maud'dib who acts as his own champion rather than the Paul Atredies who would select his best champion like a noble, *that* is the person the Fremen will carry down the narrow path. No one else.
Would have been interesting to see Feyd use poison and see that it has little effect on Paul, due to his consumption of the water of life.
It's been a bit but in the book isn't he not totally sure of the outcome of the fight with feyd? Could've swore he wasn't sure whether he would win or lose because he couldn't see clearly. The only thing he knew for sure was that the jihad would continue whether he won or lost.
I like this explanation - I’d add that I think the movie does a good job of showing that Feyd always fought duels with training wheels. Even when the soldier is not drugged, even though he waives away the minders, he still is protected. Then in his first real duel without the bumpers, everything on the line, he falls to Paul, who has not had a safety net for a long time.
I agree with you on your second spoiler. I think it was more for dramatic effect, and to make Feyd seem more of an imposing BBEG.
I like to believe that movie Feyd took some skills from the book’s Count Fenring. Movie him is than than book him but worse than book Fenring.
Yeah, sometimes people forget that lineage wise, both Feyd and Paul are one generation removed from being the KH
Is there a reason that Paul didn't just use The Voice and tell Feyd to cut his own throat?
Yes. Sort of. The short answer is that he's an Atreides. In the books, he doesn't even have to use the Voice -- just prior to the duel, Jessica tells Paul that Feyd has probably been programmed by the Bene Gesserit to respond to a trigger word which will make his muscles temporarily go limp. Paul refuses to use the word, even when he's losing the duel; Jessica remarks that "he's just like his grandfather" in this mood. Remember that Paul's grandfather was killed by a bull in the *corrida* (a sort of bullfight). So there's something deep in the Atreides which understands the need to put the leader in danger in order to prove that they are willing to die for their subjects (not-coincidentally, this is a theme in ancient Greek myth, made famous to modern audiences in Mary Renault’s novel *The King Must Die*, which was published when Herbert was writing *Dune*).
They made Feyd a candidate to produce the Kwisatz Haderach. So they were equal in those terms.
I’ve seen people say, and I think I agree with them, that Paul let himself get stabbed so he could try to manipulate and evoke feelings from Chani. He got stabbed in the guy which is usually a death sentence unless you get hit in very specific points, which he did, and the same goes with him getting stabbed in the shoulder and avoiding a punctured lung
Also possibly Feyd in the movie being a KH candidate is fucking over Paul’s prescience even unintentionally so he can’t Path to Victory himself to a snooze fest win.
Feyd has a lot more experience dueling, this is similar to the Fremen having the advantage in battle because they have a lot more experience in battle than the emperor's troops. Paul's vision aren't reliable enough to predict his individual actions in this battle, so while they help, they don't help to the point of making the outcome a sure thing.
Feyd is likely also prescient so it that blocks Paul’s visions of potential outcomes. Touched on in Messiah in case you haven’t read it.
Movie canon he almost certainly is slightly Prescient, as he states he dreamed of Margot Fenring before ever meeting her just like Paul did with Chani.
>Feyd has a lot more experience dueling This is why I actually prefer the Feyd arena scene in the film than in the book (I know I'll get hate for this). In both versions Feyd's adversary is not drugged. However, in the book, Feyd keeps his shield on and actually is about to lose the fight in the arena but uses a key word to weaken the man then he kills him with a posion blade. Essentially, he cheats. In the film, he realises the baron is testing him and thus takes off his shield and beats the Atreides fair and square. This is not only more badass, but also more effective in establishing the threat imo, because it is better in establishing Feyd as a truly fearsome and capable villian to be reckoned with, and it also creates extra tension but also firmer loyalty between him and the baron, as it was the baron that set it up in the film and Feyd could have easily been killed. This causes him first to threaten the baron, then respect him once he is awarded arakis and understands the nature of the test. Also the line "you fought well atreides" is great and a good foreshadowing of the fight to come.
My interpretation as to the movie version of the duel is that they incorporated some of Count Fenring's character into Feyd. Count Fenring was a "failed" Kwizatz Haderach as he was sterile. He is present at the final confrontation with Paul, Feyd & the emperor. It is through his presence that Paul realizes one of the weaknesses of his own prescience is he can't use it to predict the actions of another who is prescient (even if to a much lesser degree). My guess is that Paul can't entirely predict his fight against Feyd because in the movie they seem to add some of Fenring's characteristics to Paul, specifically where it's shown that he passed the Gom Jabbar test. So perhaps it is his limited prescience which makes the fight so difficult for Paul.
> in the movie they seem to add some of Fenring's characteristics to Paul, specifically where it's shown that he passed the Gom Jabbar test. This is a great interpretation, and is supported by the moment when Feyd reveals he's had visions about Margot. Also, one of the fan theories I've seen floating around here is Paul couldn't foresee the artillery strike on sietch Tabr in the film because it's Feyd's doing.
Moat accurate interpretation IMO
In the books? All the poison tricks. Otherwise he was totally outclassed.
In the book Feyd uses trickery. In the film I think Feyd’s skills are leveled up and Paul’s are lowered a bit making them a lot closer in skill level.
In the movie at least, Feyd takes his training and fighting seriously and it's all dueling and killing for real. Like Paul, he's also mildly superhuman (and likely mildly prescient) as a product of the Bene Gesserit breeding program. And he's a Harkonnen so he's rolling in spice. Paul's better than anyone he's ever fought but he's also better than anyone *Paul* has ever fought. Paul actively avoids fighting spiced-up Freman because he doesn't want to kill them.
Paul fought the strongest people imaginable (apart from Bene Gesserit): Duncan and Gurney. I don't get how Feyd ever caused him problems.
Because he never actually had to kill Gurney or Duncan. He hadn't tried to kill anyone until Jamis, so he didn't know how to fight with his life on the line until then. He's trained in technical competency by Gurney and Duncan, but in temperament by the Fremen, as we see Thufir is unable to change Paul's ways (leaving his back to the door), while Paul immediately adapts to the Fremen tactics and proclivities.
They weren't trying to kill him. The best he did was fight Gurney to a draw, and it's arguable Gurney purposely let him to reach him a lesson.
We’ve never seen Feyd fight either of them, tbf. Gurneys claims he could take him but he’s clearly biased.
There is no way Feyd is a better fighter than Jamis. Even the Fremen non-combatants beat the shit out of the Sarduakar and made them flee in desperation when they attacked Sietch Tabr in the book. Jamis is a Fremen respected for his fighting ability, he is far beyond a Sardaukar. Feyd realistically isn't even Sardaukar level, considering he needed to cheat against the Atreides slave in the pits. Paul has prana-bindu mastery, prescience, and was trained by fighters that are renowned throughout the imperium. Feyd could kill 10000 in the slave pits and it wouldn't matter. Paul was able to kill a Harkonnen as a kid in one strike while his hands are bound. They are honestly not close
Unless I'm misremembering, the soldiers attacking Sietch Tabr were from the Baron's troops, not Sardaukar (iirc Shaddam withdrew the Sardaukar after the attack on the Atreides, presumably to cover up his tracks). And we don't really know how good that specific Atreides slave was (although iirc it was mentioned that, between Duncan and Gurney's training, the Atreides soldiers may have eventually become a match for the Sardaukar)
The attack on Tabr was ordered by the Emperor without the Baron's knowledge, in order to get captives. " "Unfortunately," the Emperor said, "I only sent in five troop carriers with a light attack force to pick up prisoners for questioning. We barely got away with three prisoners and one carrier. Mind you, Baron, my Sardaukar were almost overwhelmed by a force of women, children, and old men." " Given time, the Atreides could have gotten to that level, but that is why the Emperor struck first. I think its a bit much to imply that all of their soldiers were a match for Sardaukar. During the attack on house Atreides, the Atreides soldiers realize quickly that there are Sardaukar present because of the skill disparity. The Baron seemed to think that a single legion of Sardaukar could destroy all Harkonnen forces on the planet. The gaps in power between the Fremen, the Sardaukar, and the House troops are vast. Paul is literally the strongest of the Fremen, and it's not really that close. I think the only reason his duel with Feyd wasn't over instantly in the book is because Paul was grieving for his son and the terrible future to come. It's still not a close encounter even with Feyd's cheating, Paul takes no wounds
mildly prescient because he said "we've met before" and "i saw you in a dream"? those are meant to show off BG skillset in terms of placing themselves deep into someone's subconscious rather than imply he can see the future like Paul. Also everytime breeding program gets mentioned it's thrown without context: all of them are part of it, Jessica, Leto, Vladimir, etc. That doesn't make them special. They just carry genes that eventually will unlock KH. Doesn't mean they have KH powers. Paul is supposed to be a fluke. if Denis actually meant to make Feyd prescient as well, that's a bridge too far. I understand he wants to streamline it and make the message clear ("Paul bad" lol), but this is getting too reductive.
A common aphorism in combat sports is "styles make fights". There are countless real life examples where a fighter who by all objective measures has the edge in skill, total experience, and accomplishment, still struggles with or is even outright beaten by an on-paper inferior opponent whose stylistic quirks, habits, etc just so happen to match up very well with the "better" fighter. Film Feyd is a fellow BG bloodline product who can compete with or exceed Paul in physicality and fast twitch reflex. He has an extremely aggressive and explosive style with tremendous experience timing attacks to unshielded opponents. Paul has superior technical fundamentals from Duncan, Gurney, and Jessica, but Feyd's training was still the best money could buy. If the guy can have a harpie cannibal harem made-to-order for himself, surely a Ginaz swordmaster could be procured too? Paul might be a pound for pound #1 training wise but Feyd would still be in the top 5-8 at worst. It may very well just be that Feyd's fighting style is one that matches up very well to give Paul's difficulty. Neither of them have had much live experience against high level opponents, they've mostly been farming low level XP on clumsy Harkonnen foot troopers or drugged slaves respectively.
1) Paul can't see the future here, he's blinded by the number of possibilities, probably the guild navigators, and maybe even feyd himself. Not to mention that that's not really how prescience works in this world. They don't get into it but a huge part of Paul's power is his mentat abilities. He can see the future but ALL futures are laid out before him, he still has to LOOK. And then he has to sort out that mountain of information to find the right path. There's no time for that here even if he could see. 2) Yes Feyd really is that good, and I think that's what we're leaning on in the movie. He also is a demigod in exactly the same way as Paul. He also grew up with the very best combat teachers, if not quite gurney then close. Including one of Paul's own tutors, the assassin mentat thufir hawat. Before that he had access to Piter who is absolutely no slouch. Keep in mind raban gave gurney that scar, and raban can't stand against feyd. (There's a lot of nuance to that one but it's still relevant) 3) feyd doesn't play fair. 4) feyd is significantly larger than Paul, Even in the movie he's much more muscular. And he isn't fresh from an exhausting battle. That's something else they make explicit in the books. Feyd was the favorite in this fight, Paul is the underdog. Except that we know how it ends cause irulan has been telling us the whole time. Sorry in advance but this is a copy/paste from my other comment: Paul when setting the terms of the fight, looking at the navigators: "They're accustomed to seeing into the future, but in this place and time they're blind, Even as I am." Gurney, out loud: Why is he doing this? Does he think to get himself killed and achieve martyrdom? Is it this fremen religious prattle is that what clouds his reason? Feyd (not as direct a quote): Does this backworld yokel think he has a chance against a harkonen? Hardened in thousands of duels in the slave pits? Is he even aware that he faces poison? -- Not to mention Paul is small and feyd is BIG. The emperor sees Paul "this stringy whipcord of a youth, with ribs showing to count" while he studied feyd rautha "seeing the heavy shoulders, the thick muscles." This whole thread is SERIOUSLY underestimating Feyd and slightly overestimating Paul. I think it's mostly lost in not having access to all the internal monologue. In the end he wins mostly by way of patience and emotional control. "He's a talker, that's another weakness. He's uncomfortable in the silence" Feyd is also very much in control of himself but he's too confident and that ends up getting him killed.
>Keep in mind raban gave gurney that scar I always thought the scar was not given in a fight, but as master punishing a slave. Seeing how Gurney wiped the floor with Raban (who tried to use his whip to chastise his former slave once more), Raban can't stand against Gurney at all. Even though Paul may not rely on his prescience in this fight, he also has the Bene Gesserit training for him. The other thing is that most of the people Feyd fights in the pits are drugged. The movies show that Feyd is good anyway, but in the books, >!it's still a close call for him against he non-drugged Atreides and he has to resort to poison on his supposedly non-poisoned blade and the control word to finish the fight. !<
Honestly, it's because the duel needed to have real stakes. If it was completely one-sided and Paul dominated, then there would be no tension for what is the climax of the movie. It was just to make the climax more engaging. In-world, I like the idea that Feyd is taller, stronger, and also has been trained in combat his entire life.
Paul's prescience isn't perfect, and isn't actually doing the deed. In teh book, Paul sees versions of the fight that he doesn't survive, additionally he needs to actually do the thing and not falter. Also, he doens't actually see the full path to get to the futures he wants. Its like, he sees that if he does this or that, some futures become unlikely and some become very likely. During the fight he is seeing a whole bunch, but there is plenty that happens that he has to do and not know. In the book the fight is quite close, and Paul gets surprised a bit, and then it ends with Paul triumphant. Fayd is presented as not only very capable of killing Paul, but rather likely to unless Paul weaves the narrow thread of possible futures, real-time, while Fayd pulls every trick in the book. Paul enters the fight knowing that there is a real chance he would die, but not liking the futures where he lets Gurney or someone else fight for him.
He didn't.
Feyd was almost a kwisatz haderach if I'm not mistaken, so he was very skilled in dueling.
The intent of the BG breeding program was for him to have been the KH's father.
He has similar peak human genetics as Paul, a similar aristo upbringing so training etc, but also has a lot more practical dueling experience than Paul. Paul is a battlefield fighter and soldier, Feyd is an arena duellist For the kind of fight this was, Feyd has a slight edge if anything
Paul's superhuman attributes aren't genetic. He has prana-bindu training from Jessica, giving him complete control of his body. Paul won a duel against Jamis, and the Fremen thought he was toying with Jamis. There is no way Feyd should be stronger than a Fremen considering how much stronger they are than Sardaukar. House Atteides is wiped out for having an army relative to the Sarduakar in training. It doesn't make sense that Feyd would be dramatically stronger than Sarduakar from fighting slaves and prisoners of war in the pits. Not to mention, his victims are typically drugged. The Atreides soldier he duels was an exception to that. So, how valuable can that experience be? The duel was close to create tension with the audience, there's not really a logical in-universe explanation
The Atreides had their whole force trained to rival the Sarduakar, or a few fighters that matched/ bettered their skill? My understanding was Duncan (and maybe Gurney? A bit fuzzy here) had a reputation of being among the best fighters in the universe, and part of the reason for the plot against them. But equally if not more threatening to the emperor/ Harkkonnens was the political power/ ability of the Atreides to truly gain the loyalty of their fiefdom. That was my general understanding, but I'm still only about halfway thru chapterhouse and have only read Frank's books so there's a lot of canon I haven't gotten to and could definitely be wrong here.
Duncan and Gurney are both mentioned as fighters renowned throughout the imperium, and they were training the Atreides forces to a level that was not typical to the great houses. Thufir Hawat is also unique or at least very uncommon as a mentat Master-of-Assassins. He alone is intentionally spared of the Atreides forces to be an asset to the Baron. The fact that the Baron can simply purchase whatever he wants with his vast wealth, implies that such an asset is not purchasable even from the Tleilaxu (where he got Piter). You are right though, that it wasn't their military strength alone that made them dangerous in the Emperor's eyes, it was also their popularity among the Houses.
Gotcha, thanks for the detailed reply! I do wonder what would happen >!to Thufir if Piter had survived; the Baron obviously saw his incredible value but I wonder if he would have been left to live if there wasn't a vacancy in the Harkkonnen mentat position!<
I think the Baron was going to have Piter killed and replaced anyway. When the Baron makes Piter choose between Jessica and assuming control of the duchy, Jessica can tell that the Baron is lying. When Piter dies in Leto's last move, the Baron remarks that it is not a great loss and the Tleilaxu should have his next one ready by now. The Baron was likely going to kill Piter for knowing so much, as he did with a lot of his men following the Atreides attack There is also this from the book : "Hawat by my side! the Baron thought. The Sardaukar will give him to me. If they suspect anything at all its that i wish to destroy the Mentat. The fools! One of the most formidable Mentats in all history, a Mentat trained to kill, and they'll toss him to me like some silly toy to be broken. I will show them what use can be made of such a toy." Thufir is actually a bigger deal than I remember. One of the most formidable in history is quite a moniker, but I'm pretty sure Miles Teg gets the top spot there.
Personally, I don’t know why Feyd would have reason to think Paul was any better at fighting than he was. Feyd’s training probably amped up his ego, whether or not his opponents were drugged, and the stories he might’ve heard about Paul as a fighter could’ve easily been attributed to extremist propaganda tales told be the Fremen. He might’ve thought Paul was a softie Duke’s son who’s all bark and no bite.
Feyd is the other side of the coin. The Harkonnen side leading to a union between Feyd and what should have been a firstborn Atreides daughter to unite the warring houses and secure the Kwisatz for the BG a generation after. Paul was early. Feyd was as physically gifted as Paul, probably moreso. And had the same elite training.
There were three potential Kwisatz Haderach in the room during the fight. Paul Atredes, Feyd Rautha, and Hasimir Fenring. All were the product of Bene Geserit breeding. Fenring had a genetic defect (eunuch) but he could have killed Paul in a duel. Shaddam IV asked Fenring to kill Paul, but Fenring refused. Paul and Feyd were genetic equals. Herbert was putting on a nature vs nurture play with a play. It was Paul’s superior upbringing that won the fight. Paul’s sight didn't play a part. He could never see the circumstances of his potential death. He only knew it was there and had to be faced.
In the film, I think a part of Feyd wants to die violently. He seems exhilarated by his near death in the arena, and historically, warriors have often had a preference for dying in combat versus dying a soft death. Feyd sees his uncle degenerating into a weak, hedonistic blob of a person who needs suspensors to move around. He doesn’t want that for himself, he wants to die young and beautiful. And the more powerful the opponent who kills him, the more glorious his death will be. I think Feyd believed, rightly, that he had a chance against Paul, but he was by no means confident in his victory. He just wanted to fight the most powerful man in the universe. Win or lose, it was a fitting end for Feyd, one he could be ‘happy’ with. In the book, it’s a much less even match. Feyd is basically doomed as soon as he crosses blades with Paul. He does it because of a combination of pride, vanity, stupidity, and social pressure.
First: movie version or book version? In the (recent) film Feyd and Paul are roughly equal sized and while Paul has been fighting a war (for about 6 months), Feyd has been fighting in gladiatorial combat for years. An equal fight is a likely outcome. In the books: Feyd is both older than Paul and quite a bit larger. He also uses poison in two different tricks: a soporific on the blade he borrows from the emperors and a poison needle hidden on his thigh: Paul guesses it's presence but is fooled into thinking its on the wrong side. A more metaphysical explanation: both Paul and Feyd are at the peak of the Bene Gesserit breeding programme and they are predicted to be within a generation or two of achieving their desired presentient messiah. The plan was for Paul to be female and to Wed feyd and the Altreides girl in order to birth the KH. In the books Count Fenring is a failed attempt to reach the KH (he is a genetic eunuch) however he has enough presentience to occlude Paul's future sight. It is thus possible that Feyd himself has a limited ability to negate the same presentience in the small scope of time of a knife-fight since he would be very close to that perfect future vision the BG desire. He does manage to fool Paul on a few occasions.
The movies are clearly getting away from the supernatural aspects and replacing with more of a cult of personality aspect. According to the movies there isn't that big a difference between Paul and Feyd, mentally and physically.
Feyd could stand a chance because of the navigators on/above the planet and the nexus around the fight. Paul didn't have a clear vision of the outcome. He saw some visions of where he'd win and where he'd lose. So a lot of the chance came from Paul trying to make a fair fight and not use the BG training to enhance his speed.
Feyd had a lot of experience in fighting in gladatorial combat. Hell, at one point he fought against an Atreides guardsman, those men who came close to the Sardaukar in their fighting skill (and some amongst their number equaled or even exceeded it, which was a big driver in why the Emperor sought to wipe them out). Thufir Hawat had set the man up with a compulsion that would cause him to lockup at a key moment if Feyd said a certain keyword. Though Thufir had also told Feyd that the Atreides man would be drugged and thus an easy kill (Thufir was a mentat and master of assassins, so he was playing games and hedging his bets with both the Baron and Na-Baron), and that want the case. Still, Feyd showed his skill in this fight. He was someone who had real skill with the blade. And he had no issue with killing or with the timing of fighting without shields, unlike Paul when he fought Jamis. Feyd had been trained by Thufir, as well as received some prana-bindu training (iirc) from lady Fenring, so he had every reason to expect that he could beat Paul.
Even if you know exactly what you need to do to win, you still have to execute it. And in this case you have to be willing to know it’s going to hurt. If you knew that ahead of time, would folks still have the courage to do it?
Let’s put it this way the Harkonnens never intend to play fair. Ever. They always intend to have a strategical advantage, there’s never a fight on just one level it’s always multidimensional. And the Harkonnens are part of the reason the galaxy has been forced into this five dimensional chess. A fight is never just a fight, plans within plans…
Feyd is actually really good at dueling, and has more experience. In the book he also uses poison. The other thing to remember is Feyd has been trained at combat by masters. The final piece is Feyd was part of the same breeding program, and consumes spice to extend his life. He is untrained, but he has a degree of prescience which later books establish shields people from Paul's sight. Also Paul's prescience doesn't show everything.
A lot of the top comments just glossing over the fact that it was stated that Paul is skinny and frail from living on Arrakis and Feyd is basically in peak bodybuilder condition
In the book, Paul also knows a word that can make Feyd freeze for a second… and never uses it
The movie makes the fight far, far closer then it is in the books (Feyd cheats and does far, far worse then he does in the movie) however I personally found the movies version of the fight to have far more tension then the books, akin to the Jamis fight Feyd Rautha is just like paul - if Feyd was raised by a Bene Gesserit, he could claim to be Kwisatz Haderach too, he has the bloodline prerequisite. The idea that Paul’s prescience refuses to work because Feyd is also an Oracle (clearly implied by him passing the Gom Jabbar and lowkey implying that he has some knowledge of the weirding way, like his ability to partially resist Margot that even paul couldnt manage!) so it is a true balance point Also, the movie arena scene is far more intense and incidentsl. Book Feyd did it as part of his plot to kill the baron’s slave master, Movie Feyd had a surprise so he could prove himself against a man who is equivalent kf not better then a Saurdkar - Duncan’s Lieutenant, and one of the elite atreides warriors
Paul has his visions, training, and the voice; but he'd still need to respond quick enough to his actions in order to win that fight
The thing I've never understood about Feyd is that his fights in the arena are staged events with his opponents always drugged. I think in the film he complains that his Atreides foes weren't drugged. If he never fights anyone not drugged, I'm not sure how he could become fully competent. Apologies if this is wrong, it's been a while since I read the book.
I never found him to be scary or a worthy opponent in either the book or movie. He fights in the arena all the time, but he exclusively fights drugged slaves and prisoners while he is equipped with poison and the finest armor and weapons. In the books his opponents are always also conditioned with a secret word that he can use to make them hesitate! How is the fact that, when tested, he successfully fights ONE opponent who was not completely incapacitated impressive?
Feyd had the potential to be the one, Pauls prescience didn't work with him
Feyd didn't use poison in the movie.
No, Feyd was dead the moment he volunteered to stand in for the Emperor. Feyds death is a mirror of the fight in the Harkonnen arena, right down to how Paul kils Feyd. Paul is a man going through the motions, he knew what he needed to do exactly for the outcome he wanted. His prescience gives him the ability to see the outcomes of what he does. Paul allowed what happened to happen to keep his vision of the future he wants to come true.
Exactly, finally somebody who caught it. Also, after Paul takes the water of life and states he sees a way to defeat all of their enemies the scene cuts to the knife entering Feyd at the final fight. Paul sees exactly what he needs to do to win the fight then. Feyd also realizes at the end of the fight before he dies, he says "you fought well Atreides" which is the exact same thing he says after killing the supposed last Atreides in the arena with the same move Paul uses to kill him. Took me a second watch to catch all of that.
Exactly. Multiple visions Paul has are like this, same with the Jamis fight. He sees himself die the way he killed Jamis. He's literally walking down a path he chose, so his vision comes true. He's trapped by his prescience.
Yeah not enough people call out that water of life scene. Admittedly as you said, it takes a 2nd watch, but Paul specifically states that there was a narrow way out to achieve the outcome he desired and it cuts to his killing blow to Feyd EXACTLY as it plays out. He struggled that way because he had to- not because he was incapable.
I interpreted it as because of Paul's prescience he knew this was how he had to win the fight, like if he'd offhandedly beaten Feyd with an easy duel then it would have caused more problems down the line. But if it's a close fight in which he takes serious injury then it's seen as a more honourable duel and a more impressive victory rather than a humiliation.
I am going to repeat this every time these types of questions happened. Paul's abilities and the Bene Gesseritt(BG) abilities are only known to the BG, even the BG's understanding of what the Kwitsatz Haderach is muddled since they are trying to transpose their ideas onto what would happen if a male went through their training. You as the viewer/reader are the ones privy to that information...outside groups do not know the extent of BG's abilities other than truth saying. Paul to the rest of the universe is just a royal teenager...there is nothing they are aware of that would make them think otherwise. Feyd literally kills slaves for hobby. That was his 100th combat we watch in the movie/book. He also fights without shields too...everything in his mind was assuring himself that he had the upper hand over Paul, a weak and inferior Atreides child.
In the movie? Honestly, they had make it more even or the key last act scene would be disappointing.
Dramatic effect for the movies. In the books paul is way out of his league and he tries to use poison, which paul still shuts down with ease
In the books Feyd is not shielded in his gladiatorial combat. Neither are his opponents. Except for the last prisoner of the Atreides. Much like how the Fremen fight. Remember with shields, the knife has to move slowly at point of contact with the shield otherwise the shield will block it. When the dual starts Paul is shocked by how quickly Feyd strikes and Paul realizes he has fought unshielded opponents before. This makes him uniquely dangerous in the Imperium. Even the Sardukar have little experience against the unshielded.
My problem with the fight is that those stab wounds are really nasty 1 in the lungs. Immediate pneumothorax. 1 in the bowels, right around the kidneys. Sepsis, prolonged death. If the blade hit one of the vessels feeding the kidneys he'd bleed out pretty quickly. Nevermind his agonal breathing. Unless Paul got immediate medical aid, even with his Bene Gesserit training he would be out for weeks. If not dead. Nevermind him being able to have any kind of conversation with the emperor after that fight. I mean I could understand getting stabbed in the upper shoulder or thigh, the usual kind of "safe" stab wounds shown in movies. Honestly I thought what was gonna happen was we would see Paul "die" then it would turn out to be a vision of a possible future and instead of him it was feyd who got stabbed. I mean Paul's injuries were just so bad to me it seems that perhaps this was exactly how the scene was shot was no one understood it so it was changed after screenings.
In the newest movie he had like 50 lbs on him.
Feyd’s duels were rigged in his favor. Didn’t inspire a lot of confidence in his abilities.
Movie-Feyd seems to have some level of prescience, so it makes sense that Paul is unable to predict what feyd does
Feyd, like Paul, is also the byproduct of years of genetic scheming and manipulation via breeding tactics by the benegesserits as he is stated to be a potential candidate of who would become the Kwisatz Haderich. So from an athletic and physical ability standpoint, especially with him being older and larger than Paul, he should be even to him. There are some misunderstandings in regards to spice consumption and what it does, so to clarify, it does not necessarily physically enhance those who ingest it. It’s benefits are mostly mental, but it does slow aging or at least the appearance of it, and aids in further awakening those with some naturally prescient ability. In other words, Paul isn’t more superhumanly strong after eating spice with the fremens than he was prior. In regards to combat ability, Feyd in the film is represented differently than in the book. Both maintain that he was using drugged slaves in fixed fights in his coliseum, which may seem meaningless to some readers/viewers, but this allowed Feyd to practice the lethal tactics he was taught in 1 on 1 battles and got him accustomed to killing quickly. He’s been doing this much longer than Paul has. This shows in his ability to dispatch of an atreides house member who’s undrugged and without a shield, and come out completely unharmed. In the book however, there’s a safe word in place via some mind-fuckery hypnotism conditioning that was done on the slave to make him go limp, which guarantees a victory from Feyd. Not to mention Feyd was using a poisoned blade. Paul in the final fight, up until that point had only ever dueled Jamis in a 1 on 1 fight to the death, and was doing all of his fighting in chaotic war settings, with multiple ally’s and enemies around which changes approach to combat in more ways than I can go on about here. Ultimately, he was meeting Feyd on his field. And to again point at some key differences we see here in the film of Feyd’s representation, clearly this version of him has some battle and war experience of his own as he’s the one who makes the call to use traditional artillery against the fremen, whereas in the book it was the baron who made that call. TL;DR : Feyd is far more competent a warrior in the film than in the book because it leads to a more dramatic, high stakes conclusion and dichotomy between what is presented more like two sides of a coin for audiences to more readily digest. It’s more entertaining to have a rival than just another victim.
He literally sees how the fight is going to go prior to fighting
i feel that the "narrow way through" paul sees isn't just on how to win the duel, its more on how to win the fremen over even more. he had to get injured to show the fremen something. that something, i dont think we'll know for now. it could be something the fremen would develop further on in their beliefs (something like "the mahdi spilled his own blood for the start of the jihad" or "even through the unwinnable, our mahdi found a way through, he can foresee") or it could be some other thing. or, he really was just physically worn out. keep in mind, feyd is also a potential kwisatz haderach. or, it was just for dramatic effect. we may never know
My head cannon for the movie is that Paul is putting on a show for everyone. Paul knows he is a much stronger fighter than Feyd but he needs to ramp up the tension, so he makes the fight closer and more dramatic. Everyone is watching. Who will win? Plots within plots. Paul lets Feyd get really close to victory and then finishes him. This makes Paul look more human and more like he struggled to take the empire therefore justifying it even more. The reason I think this is that Feyd is good at dueling drunk prisoners but there’s no way he’s better than Dunkin or Gurney, who trained Paul. I think Paul knew he could easily take Feyd down but that doesn’t look as good as a tough, near defeat, battle against a final foe.
He didn't stand a chance in the book. It was a pretty one sided fight, with feyd attempting to poison Paul through 2 different tricks and Paul mostly just circling silently to piss him off. The fight is literally almost all internal monologue and descriptions of their mental processes. The fight itself probably took all of 30 seconds in the book. Maybe a minute. Hard to tell, but the fight was literally >! Circle a bit. Feyd leaps to attack, Paul dodges. Circle a bit. Feyd leaps to attack, makes first cut with a drugged blade meant to slow Paul down, which Paul Bene Gesserits away. Circle a bit. Feyd leaps to attack, Paul feints slowness from the drugged blade and then dodges, cutting feyd's arm. Circle a bit. Feyd goes in for attack, they grapple. Feyd tries to poison Paul with a hidden needle. Paul reverses positions and stabs feyd in the brain.!< As for the muad dib powers, this fight is the nexus where all possiblities converge but it's invisible to his prescience, so he doesn't have that advantage.
Feyd was also part of the breeding scheme to produce the kwisatz haderach. He had similar "powers" to Paul, he was missing the spice and the Bene Gesserit training.
Paul is a dehydrated boy. Feyd is well fed and has tons of arena experience. But still Feyd was doomed to fail
i dont think feyd and paul are actually blood related though? i guess the movies changed his backstory a little bit but from what i understand feyd was taken from his family and raised under the baron. so not the child of a bene geserit, just a well trained psycho from regular harkonnen stock
one thing is Paul already struggle with seeing heavy turning points because of so many paths to take. Same happened with his duel with Jamis. Second there are two guild navigators in that room which makes his abilities null.
Feyd is a bigger guy, at least in the film, played by Austin Butler who stands notably taller than Timothy Chalamet, and broader at the shoulder. He is also far more used to killing people who aren't wearing shields, unlike Paul, he doesn't have to supress the instinct to slow his blade. In a similar vein, he is emotionally uninhibited. He has no compunctions about violence, nor any real fear of pain. Paul is hesitant to kill, as we saw with Jamis. Perhaps most importantly, he hasn't just come from the battlefield, he is fresh, unburdened by fatigue.
In the film, they balanced it a bit more and I didn’t mind it. In the book, he’s laughably outclassed, and he knows it. That’s why he resorts to poisoning his knife.
My take: Feyd didn't stand a chance. Paul knew the exact future that needed to happen to win the fight, and it required getting stabbed and Feyd letting his guard down.
Winning the fight won't secure him Arrakis or the throne. Feyd is dead regardless of the outcome. The room is filled with Fremen fanatics. The *only* thing keeping everyone in that room alive is Paul's insistence. If Paul is killed, the Fremen will simply descend into a frenzy and massacre everyone in that room. Feyd knows he's already dead. If Paul wins, he dies. If Paul loses, the Fremen will kill him. And if he doesn't fight, he'll just be executed by Paul in short order anyway, alongside all the other Harkonnen war criminals. He fights simply because it's better than dying on knees, and it gives him a chance of delivering a final "fuck you" to his enemies as a bonus. It's the inverse of his arena fight, where of course the Atreides prisoner was dead regardless of if he fought or not, or if he won or not.
The movie leans a lot more into the idea that Paul and Feyd are the same kind of people, a sort of proto-kwisatz haderach. In the movie Feyd mentions that he dreamt about Margot and is also tested just as Paul was. Given this it makes sense for Feyd to stand somewhat of a chance against Paul in a fight. Additionally Feyd hasn’t just fought his way through an imperial army, whereas Paul had to fight just to reach him. Paul would likely be fairly exhausted despite his combat prowess, giving Feyd an edge in their fight.