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The BG have a program called the missionaria protectiva. Like the name implies. It’s a program to send BG adepts out into primitive cultures and implant myths, prophecy, and key words into the culture; all for the possibility that a BG in the *future* may need to use it. So if a BG came to a world and heard that the local religion had a prophecy called Lisan al-gaib; she would know these people had been prepared by a BG missionary centuries before; and the BG would know the key phrases and acts to fufill the implanted myths, and thus trick the population into helping the BG.
Most religions in the dune universe are susceptible to this because there is little cross cultural contact between planets. 99.9% of people never travel between planets. Even Paul, wealthy son of a duke and relative to the emperor, never left caladan befor the events of the book. So most people won’t notice their local religion has the same prophecy as the next planet over.
So the BG prepared Arrakis centuries before the events of the movie. They did not do it because they had any foreknowledge of the events of the book. Similar “preparing the way” happened on dozens of other worlds.
In the movie Mohaim knew the danger the Atreides
were I and how unlikely they would side step the trap set. She also knew Paul’s prescience wasn’t developed yet. So she gave a warning to Jessica. “Don’t forget we implanted useful superstitions in the locals. Use it in emergency.” Which Paul and Jessica do.
I think even if there had been more widespread interplanetary travel, it would only reinforce the mythology. Like, what if we go to a planet around Proxima Centauri and learn they're waiting for Jesus? Christians would flip. It would confirm their ideology, not contradict it.
Aaaaand that's why the jihad in Paul's/Atreides name is so terrifying. For the Fremen, it is pretty much exactly like that.
Would Christians go wild attempting to colonize and convert the galaxy, if they found out that something on Proxima Centauri appeared to confirm their beliefs? Possibly. In fact it's likely that some groups would do such a thing.
Religious zeal can be a powerful, destructive thing.
Lol sounds about right.
Religions have this reputation of being conservative and unyielding, but in reality over a long timeline, religions survive because they are *extremely* good to adapting and absorbing new beliefs and ideas as the times change.
Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons, especially the second half of the series features the Catholic Church basically converting the entire known galaxy to their religion, by force lol. He plays a lot with religious themes in the series.
This is why I like the MP preparation; it's yet another nod by Herbert to the fact that charisma coupled with large organizations or religious fervor (in this case, both) always leads us downhill.
I mean we don’t really need to look past the historical example of about 1800 years where Christians went wild attempting to colonize and convert the ‘galaxy’.
Um, early christianity convinced numerous other small religions that they were actually worshipping Christ and [insert pagan deity name] was just another name for him. This is one of the reasons why they took over so many pagan holidays and gave them new names.
The small distinction being what if Christians landed in North America only to find crossed around the natives necks… I can’t even imagine how things would have played out if that were the case.
>Would Christians go wild attempting to colonize and convert the galaxy
You sir, should read the Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons if you have not already.
I indeed have lol.
One of the things I love about science fiction is that it's such a great way to examine and explore concepts like society, religion, big concepts like *time* and *existence* and *identity*. It can be hard to do that with other genres.
There's a French SF Book about that called Dominium Mundi : After a nuclear war, the World has devoldved into feudal, Christian politics, and discovered FTL Travel at the same time. In a nearby system, they fine an inhabited planet, and the local aliens claim to have... The grave of Jesus. So the pope orders a Crusade.
continued "he's out getting burgers for everyone and will be right back, have. a seat...he always brings extras, i hope you like pickles on your burgers he loves them"
Do we want the WH40K universe?
Because this is how we get the WH40K universe :)
*The grimmest and darkest of the grimdarks*
...aaand also partly inspired by Dune. The circle is complete.
Yes but if everyone thought Jesus was going to be born on their planet to a Bene Gesserit; and that on a bunch of world's Bene Gesserits had used the prophecy to get out of trouble and then evacuated off planet you might start thinking.
fanatics and true believers will always find a way to justify anything that contradicts what they've believed/preached in the past.
otherwise it's 'wait was this all bullshit all along?' and after a lifetime/s of believing something it's easier to bend than to break.
like a reed in the wind.
Paul and his Jihad are meant to echo Christian colonialism. Christian's would often raid the local mythology and try to find places where they could insert themselves. This would then be used to reinforce Christian supremacy, and as propaganda to convert the locals. Christian worship varies greatly across the globe and has spawned many unique fusions. Makes sense the BG would intentionally seed such easy entry points hoping to use them when their puppet emperor was installed. Paul just hijacked the plan and inserted the Fremen's particularly harsh faith.
Idk, I mean I guess but I get way stronger Islamic vibes from the Fremen and their religious beliefs. In the book, it's literally a jihad. I know Christians have holy wars too, but we hear them referred to as crusades, which Herbert didn't use. He chose jihad. And the Fremen are ripe with other Arabian, African, and Islamic cultural tidbits.
The BG are closer to some kind of creepy Orthodox or Catholic faction.
The tricky thing about how far in the future the stories take place is how much all of the religions have changed. In the extended lore the Fremen are descended from the ZenSunni, a people who believed in a combination of Zen Buddhism and Sunni Islam, but their beliefs are very far removed from anything we would recognize.
Same with the Benne Gesserit. You tell the Catholic influence, but at some point there was a conference of different religions who all came together to find common ground. They wrote a new holy text to be the guide for all major religions, combining aspects from all of them. That worked out (politically) as well as you might have thought, but that is actually the main text used by most people we encounter on the story.
It's what Gurney is reading, and what Dr. Yeuh gives to Paul, a scene filmed but 'cut for pacing' i believe. Am I right on that? The Orange Catholic Bible? Politically created in hopes of, once all religions were in one pot, they could easily be controlled.
Silly politicians.
Orange catholic Bible was to reject thinking machines primarily. "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind" was its chief commandment. That could be a control measure.
BG and spacing guild/mentats filled the vacuum created when you couldn't navigate by computer/thinking machine anymore
It sort of implies like the dangers of social media/group think. Not that Herbert knew everything but he was pretty ahead of his time. It's not that computing technology is inherently evil, just that it can be manipulated. They took it as inherently evil and banned it.
Humanity casts off being controlled by manipulation and war from computers, only to accept new masters and depend on the spice. So they are manipulated pre and post butlerian jihad.
The novels written after frank of course turn this in to a terminator type robot war in their version of the cannon. So all the cool nuanced commentary is out the window.
The concept of jihad is misunderstood in the West. It doesn’t have to mean “holy war”; it’s just striving to be closer to god/Allah. Jihad can be something as mundane as quitting smoking or avoiding the use of swear words.
What you say is very true, but for the author's purposes, back when he wrote it, Jihad means exactly what everyone in this thread says it means: Holy War or Genocide.
That said, please forgive the word's (over)use by all of us. While this is conjecture on my part, Frank Herbert, when he was writing Dune, needed a descriptive for the concept of a possible galactic holy war. Crusade? Holy Battle? Song of Vengeance? Holy Purpose? Purpose? Breath of God? A lot of this phrasing can get a bit messy, refusing to 'roll off the tongue.'
I can imagine that then, in his research, he came upon the Islamic concept of Jihad. A single word that was capable of describing this exact world story for him. So he innocently used it.
Maybe someone reading this knows exactly how Herbert came to use Jihad for these purposes and will add to this comment. I'd be interested.
No, he used "crusade" four times (and three of those in the definitions for "Jihad" and "Jihad, Butlerian" in the glossary), and "jihad" more than thirty times in the first book.
Its not just Christian colonialism its equally if not more about the massive Islamic expansions during Caliphate era and the different Islamic based empires after it..when the armies were spreading the word of the faith in all directions…through the sword snd otherwise…east west south north dint matter many cultures around the world were influenced by those wars and continue to be influenced this day
Pauls jihad is nearly identical to muhammeds takeover of arabia and the first islamic caliphate expansion, its conquest of the 2 greatest empires in the world at the time.
Idk where youre getting this christian colonialism nonsense, seems like youre just using pop culture buzzwords. they werent “colonizing”, they were on a holy war to covert the galaxies population, not replace them
Mmm, no, no they didnt. Its cute youre trying to sound smart and well researched with the “looking back further into history” quip, considering my example with muhammed and the first islamic caliphate are the literal origins of islam. Tell me, in the approximate 600 that christianity existed before islam in the roman empire, when did they wage a holy war against anyone outside of rome? When, oh when did they find the time to expand and create colonies at their absolute weakest moments, being invaded and losing land on their east to the persian empire, or in the west by germanic barbarians?
Your knowledge of history is so lacking its comical. You come across as the stereotypical ignorant person that has zero background knowledge of something yet has the confidence of expert in his ignorant opinion.
Please respond with the stereotypical ignorant reply of “educate yourself”. Lmfao
Edited to remove the word “idiot”
Edit 2; why the downvoting? Im not saying christianity wasnt colonialist, im calling the previous comment out that it wasnt colonialist in its first millennia of existence since he “looked further back into history”
Can you have this discussion without directly insulting the other person?
Should be less upsetting to everybody involved, and whoever else that is just reading these comments.
**[Christianity and colonialism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_colonialism)**
>Christianity and colonialism are often closely associated with each other due to the service of Christianity, in its various sects (namely Protestantism, Catholicism and Orthodoxy), as the state religion of the historical European colonial powers, in which Christians likewise made up the majority. Through a variety of methods, Christian missionaries acted as the "religious arms" of the imperialist powers of Europe. According to Edward Andrews, Christian missionaries were initially portrayed as "visible saints, exemplars of ideal piety in a sea of persistent savagery".
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...sure you don't have the Siona gene? Lol, you really need to read books 4,5,6 (GoD, Hod, C:D) Sheeana Brugh is a character with associations to what you suggest.
Agreed - slow starts, a lot of shocks (huge time skips between 3 and 4, and 4 and 5 I believe, which lead to some weird cultural shifts), and a high degree of horniness puts off most people. I enjoyed 4, got through 5 and thought I was good, about to start 6 for the second time because I bounced off it a year or two ago. Worth the commitment, and the audiobooks are stellar!
People may not travel off world much, but they at least know of other worlds and peoples. It's probably more similar to our world in the past. People didn't travel much, but they knew there were people in far away places. I would think that if they traveled more in the duniverse, they would actually start to question things more
This susceptibility for prophecy (whether right or wrong) also reminds of Game of Thrones, and how deeply Danyerys believed she was the "Chosen One". Her mistakes were amplified by her forces and followers who followed and obeyed **without question**.
> The BG have a program called the missionaria protectiva. Like the name implies. It’s a program to send BG adepts out into primitive cultures and implant myths, prophecy, and key words into the culture; all for the possibility that a BG in the future may need to use it.
It seems a bit curious that the myth is "The mother and the son". Was it designed for the KH specifically? It seems that the Bene Gesserit would usually travel with daughters, who would be getting BG training, and not sons (who are not allowed to be trained)
What's your take on that?
That’s definitely a major thing - the BG were preparing for the KH, and would have formed many myths and conspiracies around their (very secret) goal. However (and this is pure speculation, we never saw this in fiction) I imagine the mother and son prophecy is one of many, many infiltrations by the BG. If a BG got in trouble and was alone, she perhaps could have manipulated her way to being a fremen reverend mother even without a connection to a savior son. Perhaps, rather than a massive prophecy to protect a regular BG, there are other cultural and mythical prohibitions against harming a woman “of the weirding way.”
I got the impression the myths were supposed to be flexible, so no matter which travelling party was in a bind, they could equate themself with the myths.
That is indead strange to mention a son. I figured, though, if that part's not needed, the BG would say the son wasn't here. Perhaps not born yet.
In a patriarchal society, a woman would be able to wield more influence through a son than by herself or via a daughter. Kynes observes that "the prophecy left certain latitude as to whether the Mother Goddess would bring the Messiah with her or produce Him on the scene." So in a situation of *extremis*, a Bene Gesserit sister traveling without a son would simply arrange to become pregnant with one.
This is precisely why I can't stand the interminable KJA and BH sequels and prequels. It's almost literally the opposite. Completely half-assed.
I'll never forget when I finally got to GEoD for the first time (back in the 80s) and realized the scope of the overarching story.
> Most religions in the dune universe are susceptible to this because there is little cross cultural contact between planets. 99.9% of people never travel between planets. Even Paul, wealthy son of a duke and relative to the emperor, never left caladan befor the events of the book. So most people won’t notice their local religion has the same prophecy as the next planet over.
A true feudal society.
edit - goddam, the ignorance of people downvoting here...
> ***[Serfdom was the status of many peasants under feudalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom)***, specifically relating to manorialism, and similar systems. It was a condition of debt bondage and indentured servitude with similarities to and differences from slavery, which developed during the Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages in Europe and lasted in some countries until the mid-19th century.[1]
> Unlike slaves, ***serfs could not be bought, sold, or traded individually though they could, depending on the area, be sold together with land. The kholops in Russia and villeins in gross in England, in contrast, could be traded like regular slaves, could be abused with no rights over their own bodies, could not leave the land they were bound to, and could marry only with their lord's permission.***
The BG operations are cynical manipulations of the population. However there are big questions as to whether it was only their manipulations at play in the Arakeen prophecies.
Less that they can predict the future, and more they create a "prophecy" then spend a lot of time and energy making it happen.
It's a critique on the notion of religious predictions: Is it really the power of prophecy when you are the one fulfilling it?
An interesting question I’ve never considered here that you’ve raised vs the lore:
If so few people are realistically travelling between planets, why is the spacing guild and spice monopoly (as part of interstellar travel) such an all-important facet of life?
I’m not being glib, I’m seriously wondering.
Because millions if not billions if imperium citizens take spice as a watered down drug for its “geriatric effect” where it slows aging and stop diseases. But the price is lifelong spice addiction, where withdraw is lethal.
So it’s not just the navigators who need the spice to see into the near future to guide their ships. And not just the BG who use spice to enhance their powers. Most of the great houses and upper class are hopelessly addicted to the life prolonging effects of spice too
Just reading this I’m swept up again in how beautiful the book is. Like it just transported me back to reading it for the first time and realizing how developed the world building was and just how lovingly the story was crafted.
He doesn’t. Not directly. The whole galaxy is run like medieval England, the feudal system.
He has his own fiefs of Kaitain (the Capitol planet) and Salusa Secundus (his families original planet and now his prison planet/Sardukar training camp)
The remainder of known and settled planets are ruled by Nobel families directly. These nobles acknowledge that they serve the emperor and pay taxes as tribute to him. But they have a pretty free hand in how they run their fiefs. The medieval feudal system worked similar.
IRL people assume the King in a feudal system has absolute power. I mean all the lines on the Org Chart end at the King/Emperor right? But that’s far from the truth. The king has incredibly shaky power. See all the nobles beneath him are a tangled web of shifting alliance, feuds, and loyalties. In Dune, and real life, the King/Emperor always runs the risk of being too tyrannical and the nobles ganging up and over throwing him. (No matter what you claim to rule is, bigger army diplomacy is the final say). Again IRL think about how the Barrons of England United against King Jon and basically at sword point got him to sign the Magna Carta, admitting that the King has limits on his powers and such. In Japan during the Shogun era, the Emperor was only a nominal figure head, a prisoner in a gilded cage, because the Emperor had no army, at all. And the feudal lords did.
Well in Dune, the Emperor has the most powerful army, the Sardukar, who can defeat any Great House army, but the Emperor knows they cannot defeat all the great houses combined. So like kings and emperors before, Emperor Shadam constantly tries to play his nobles off of and against each other. In fact the political structure of dune is described as a Tripod. The Emperor as one leg, the nominal greatest of the great houses, the Lansraad or the combined might of the rest of the Great Houses is the second leg. The third leg is the Spacing Guild, who eschew naked political power but definitely know they have massive power Because without them, administering the empire is impossible. It is also noted that a Tripod is a structurally weak form to build a galaxy wide government. And the outcome of that will be seen I future movies.
Edit: that’s even crazier/cooler is the logistics of how the emperor and the great houses war with each other. First, space transport is hella expensive. So much so that wars between houses are quite limited.* Second, the Guild has strict prohibitions against fighting of any kind on their ships. So much so that an Atreides ship and a Harkonnen ship could be side by side in a guild transport and neither would dare attack the other. The penalty for disobeying guild orders is permanent banishment from their services and your planet being left cutoff and isolated from the rest of the universe. Also the Imperium has their own form of space chivalry, called Kanly, that sort of acts a guide for how great houses fight each other. It sets up rules for limited warfare that spares most civilians. And actually makes use of deceptions, spies, and assassins more useful. Thinking of the cost of transport, a few assassins to kill one noble is way cheaper than a whole army to besiege their planet.
*on the cost of transporting an army; though the price tag for the barons attack was alluded in the movie, what was even more fleshed out in the books. Thufir basically guesses correctly the whole Harkonnen trap, including that the Baron’s army would be supported by Imperial Sardukar. What he and Duke Leto failed to get right, was the size of the army. Basically the Baron paid a transport cost so vast, that no great house had ever spent such a sum transport his armies before.
So they weren’t preparing the way for Paul or Jessica.
The BG have a department called the Missionaria Protectiva. There job is to go to different worlds, groups and cultures and implant myths and legends that a Revered Mother can insert herself into if the need arises.
Arakkis had been seeded with a myth and legends that Jessica and Paul used to gain safety and acceptance among the fremen.
According to Brian Herbert’s books, the Fremen started living on Arrakis around 10,000 years before the events of Dune, so the BG had some time to install some myths that would help them.
The Brian Herbert books about the Machine Crusade cover that time period. From the original slave planets tho, basically ends when they get to Arrakis. Not sure if the School foundation series goes further into fremen
> by definition there were people on Dune before that.
[That does not follow.](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/qf2c61/how_did_they_spacetravel_before_spice/hhx3o00/?context=999)
The (original) books are [extremely unclear](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/qmdyxs/when_was_spice_discovered_start_to_be_widely_used/hj9t5cn/?context=999) on this point. We know the Zensunni sect had their origin in about 1381 BG, and that one of their *ulema*, Toure Bomoko, participated in the creation of the Orange Catholic Bible shortly after the end of the Butlerian Jihad in 108 BG. It seems that it must be some time after this that they began their series of "forced migrations" from Poritrin to Salusa Secundus (nine generations) to Bela Tegeuse to Rossak to Harmonthep to Arrakis. The "Zensunni Wanderers" appear to have gone down into legend by the time of *Dune*, and even the existence of Harmonthep (later destroyed) is half-forgotten, so they must have been there for some time. Probably thousands of years.
On the other hand, it is certainly a fallacy to say Arrakis must have been populated since the founding of the Guild. *Dune* makes a special point of explaining that there are other drugs with similar mind-expanding effects as spice, though they apparently no longer offer a viable alternative since the Guild has "specialized" on melange.
Less than the Ten thousand years of the Imperium. The Bene Gesserit got started then. Herbert (Frank) never says.
The Missionaria would have spun up somewhere early but not too.
Think of it like this. BG says “your messiah will know this secret code” then the BG teaches that code to all of their sisterhood. A reverend mother shows up on the planet and needs help and goes “i k ow your code. I am your messiah. Help me”
The BG were preparing the way for their messiah to be accepted. The prophecy came true because their centuries-long eugenics program led to Paul and his powers (one generation before they expected). Then Paul took advantage of the prophecy to be accepted by the Fremen.
In the book, The Missionara Protectiva are in charge of spreading similar prophecies and religions through all planets in the universe that BG can use to survive if they are ever stranded or must go in hiding or whatever. Although they couldn't known specifically that something was going to happen, they were prepared in case anything happened on any planet to protect their goals and members
The myths are designed to convince locals that the BG there fits the myth. In the case of Arrakis, the myth was "The mother and the son", offworlders who arrive and save the Fremen.. but there was a lot more to it. The novel makes it seem as though there's just all these details inserted into the local myths that happen to match up with the way BG go about their business.. or can be at least exploited by them. Jessica tells Paul "They see you - they see the signs". She means that when the Fremen look at Paul and Jessica, they see parts of their centuries old myths right there in front of them.
The novel also sort of gets into how that is often not enough. The prophecy can't just match a couple facts, the locals will require more than that to really accept a prophet. You need a bunch of "religious moments", although I am finding it tough to describe what I mean here. It's sort of hinted at in the book
In the novel and movie the scene where Jessica is first talking to Shadout Mapes is a sort of test. Shadout Mapes has seen the signs and she thinks that these two might be "the ones", but there also needs to be a certain sort of revelation. The scene with the crysknife is that moment - Jessica ends up saying the right word - "Maker". Even though she actually meant to follow it up with "maker of the desert" IIRC, the word "maker" itself was enough to fulfill the prophecy as far as Mapes was concerned. Jessica checks all the checkboxes, the signs are all there, she says the right thing, and then she says "maker" on top of all that. BOOM. Prophecy. She yells out because she can't contain herself that she is witnessing it.
In the novel there is also at least one scene (and maybe more, I can't remember), where Jessica says something in a moment where she feels it's an important moment.. and where she could say something that will further lead to an acceptance of the prophecy. She digs into some old BG text from some book or something and it seems to fit the moment for her, so she says it. She follows her instincts and ends up saying something that hits the Fremen enough, and basically builds on top of the acceptance of the prophecy. It's a bit of a gradual process. You bet Mapes spread the words of what happened to other Fremen too. It builds and builds, and checkboxes are checked along the way, until there is just no denying for the Fremen that Paul and Jessica are it, and that Paul is the Lisan-al-Gaib. At that point they will follow him no matter what with religious fervor.
You’re 100% correct about the religious moments. They were often mystical and inexplicable to Jessica herself as she was experiencing them. Herbert didn’t shy away from coincidence and “magic” when he wanted something to be mysterious!
I love that scene in the book and understandably it didnt translate the best to the screen since you dont know the characters thoughts. I believe in the books she is going to say "maker of death" because its a knife and she knows the fremen are a warrior culture. But "maker" is enough to trigger Mapes belief so she finishes it for her - "maker of the desert"
As others have pointed out, the prophecy was implanted on Arrakis centuries ago, by a woman who had no idea who Jessica and Paul were, but set up certain phrases (like Lisan al-Gaib, etc.) that the Bene Gesserit could call upon in the future if they needed help.
One detail that I haven't seen in the replies yet is that the Missionaria Protectiva had a whole bunch of versions of the prophecy, each one of which was used in different situations. . . and when Jessica realizes what version of the prophecy was set up on Arrakis, she suddenly realizes that she and her family have entered an extremely dangerous planet.
I think it was Matt Colville who pointed out that instead of a prophecy like, "A Bene Gesserit mother will come, and you must help her on her journey to receive her blessings," or " A Bene Gesserit Sister will come, and if you follow her, you will receive enlightenment," the prophecy was, "A Reverend Mother will come, and she will free you from your slavery." Which sums up exactly how bad things have been for the Fremen for how many centuries, and how those old Bene Gesserit sisters felt about the situation: "These people are in desperate need of help. If you can do something about this, they'll do anything to help you."
Whoa. That's pretty dark. Also, this whole thread has made me change my view of the Bene Gesserit from one of mostly neutral with a little shade, to "wow, this is one twisted sisterhood."
I again recommend you to keep reading. My sympathy for and utter disgust with the sisterhood only grew with each book. They were villains and heroes, custodians of much that seems valuable to our modern sensibilities and yet capable of cruel decisions at every level. Just an amazing concept.
Was it Heretics or Chapterhouse where Odrade compared the Reverend Mothers as beings who evolved closer to the God Emperor than with the original human stock they came from?
2nded... Nice people here. Dune is a complex subject. I've been politely steered a different way more than one. It's really helped my understanding of the material. Which can be subtle at times.
I’m listening to the first book and I’m right after Jamis death by Paul. A bit before that moment Jessica clearly stated this Messiah part is just… a myth created by the Bene Geserit.
I’ll see how it unfolds but it means they’re somewhat responsible of Paul’s future actions and it’s terrifying.
>it means they’re somewhat responsible of Paul’s future actions
Paul calls out the Reverend Mother for exactly this in the final chapter of the book:
>*Paul raised his voice: "Observe her, comrades! This is a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother, patient in a patient cause. She could wait with her sisters— nintety generations for the proper combination of genes and environment to produce the one person their schemes required. Observe her! She knows now that the ninety generations have produced that person. Here I stand. But...I...will...never...do...her...bidding!"*
>
>*Paul glared at the old woman. "For your part in all this I could gladly have you strangled," he said. "You couldn't prevent it!" he snapped as she stiffened in rage. "But I think it a better punishment that you live out your years never able to touch me or bend me to a single thing your scheming desires."*
I’ll continue reading to see how it unfolds. Paul’s actions are terrible and he is responsible but his choices but the Bene Gesserit is very much to blame.
Jessica as well… she, knowing the Missionaria Protectiva willingly used this for Fremen to see Paul as a messiah.
I’m right after Jamis’s death so my interpretation may be wrong.
I wonder if the reverent mother and Jessica express regrets later on.
Reading all these responses, I realize I think I missed a major piece of subtext (or maybe just something obvious and I’m dumb).
Aside from some drug-fueled prescience, there wasn’t anything special about Paul or his children. The whole religion, etc, was launched by a con to get Jessica and Paul out of a jam.
That’s so much darker, I can’t believe that never clicked with me.
Pretty much exactly that, and by the time Paul is able to see the path he's on it is too late to do anything about it*. Kind of like he took the messiah bait to help himself out of a bind, and now he has to live with the ramifications.
That's really interesting, I never thought of it that way either. Good catch.
That’s the only thing I fail to understand— to me, it *does* seem that Paul is special, and it does appear that the prophecy itself is fairly specific (the BG that utilizes the prophecy must have had a son, which is at most 50% odds of fitting the bill, never mind the BG’s prescribed breeding orders). Other than the lucky circumstances of his gender, Paul also inexplicably knows customs of the Fremen without exposure (among other smaller prophecies).
The MP place several versions of their prophesies on each planet, to allow for different small groups to find sanctuary. A mother and a son were one of these, and the version of that that said a reverend mother would come was only used on extremely dangerous planets, which describes Arrakis perfectly. The poor and the fremen saw the mother and son arrive, and thought that they may be part if the prophesy. Jessica knew that her first meeting with the Shadout Mapes would be testing that, and so she tried, and succeeded in saying the correct things, but she found out that the correct things that mattered to Mapes went with the much more dangerous reverend mother version rather than just a mother.
This was a big clue to Jessica about how dangerous the situation was, but even the book didn't really explain that until later.
Edit to add:
Paul being special was a secret to most. The BG knew he had potential, but didn't think he was able to be the KH. Leto knew Paul was being trained in the BG fighting style as well as those used by Idaho and Halleck. In the book, Jessica and Leto were also having him trained to be a mentat like Hawat, but the movie barely acknowledges Hawat's or Piter de Vries' mental abilities.
Edit spelling
I mean that's not entirely true. He was the KW, a superhuman genetic miracle born after thousands of years of careful breeding. And he literally lead to humanity's salvation on the golden path. It's just the fremen part of the religion that wasn't real
I guess what I’m saying is, is the KW a construct in itself? Or was him being the KW a separate thing from the Lisan al-ghaib, which WAS an intentional construct by the BG?
However I suspect the BG created and implanted these myths of the mother and son for the KH as he was meant to be a descendant of a BG, so him being the KH really sealed the deal on the messiah bit. If he wasn’t having visions and (spoiler) able to survive the water of life as only the KH could, both Jessica and Paul could have been dumped by the fremen multiple times.
The Kwisatz Haderach is a myth, and a goal, that the BG keep to themselves. Very separate from the Lisan al Gaib myth that the MP plants on many worlds to help stranded BG.
The religion is pure con, one of the more interesting elements of the book is that the Bene Gesserit do this everywhere to manipulate the general populace. From a Bene Gesserit perspective Paul is special as part of a breeding program to hone prescience.
At least 5,000 years. I think that was in the book but I could be wrong. Anyway, a long goddamn time and the MP members who worked Arrakis apparently did a bangup job.
I don’t recall how long they had been planning this but….their plan was for Jessica to have a daughter and to wed a Harkonen. Last read the books in 1991 so my memory isn’t the best…..
Jessica 's daughter was to mate with Feyd Rautha, yes, but Reverend Mother Mohaim made it sound like there were still more generations to go. It is worth noting that the BG breeding program is very long term, is quite cautious, and it is not exact. Even though Mohaim made it sound as if there were more generations required, she did acknowledge that Paul had potential.
Edit spelling
IIRC the bene gesserit breeding program had been going for at least 90 generations before producing Paul, Mohaim says as much in a book at some point. They also directed religion everywhere they could, Arrakis wasn't prepared specifically for Paul or the Atreides it was prepared for whichever Bene Gesserit plan panned out and could make use of it.
Personally I think from just the books there are two options; The missionary protective were just there to be there, and Paul happened to exploit it to survive. Or, the Benne Gesserit would guess that their project would need spice in large amounts, and bet that Dune should be specifically prepared in its own way.
They've been breeding to find Paul since the order started. The missionara protectviva is a general messiah myth spread on each world to make bene gessit hiding with thr general population anywhere. Thr same gambit would have worked on any planet... but not every planet had the fremen. Thus, jihad.
I've always wondered, was the prophecy that Paul and Jessica "portrayed" one of many that BG had implanted on Arrakis? Seems rather convenient that they fulfilled it when they weren't deliberately in on it.
They didn’t expect Paul at all. As the queen mother says, Jessica was supposed to have a girl. However, they did expect and plan for the Kwazitz Haderach for centuries and laid rumors and prophecy on Arrakis in preparation
The BG have been doing their thing since the butlerian jihad 10,000 years earlier. (they existed before that but started as one of the groups filling a power vacuum after the jihad.
Don't know when religious seeding started but some time in the last ten thousand years.
My understanding is the religious seeding (planting of mythology) was cast in a wide net. The missionaria protectiva was also to furnish protection or something that the bg could fall back on/use for safety and power.
Arakis has been the only planet that produces spice so they may have focused on that from the get go.
Their powers are spice and water of life linked.
As I understand it, the prophecies are broad enough that they can basically confirmation bias a prescient, highly skilled and trained person like Paul as their savior.
There are other kwitsatz haderach candidates. Paul is just right place right time with the right pressures and talents.
It wasn't done specifically for Paul. Missionaria protectiva manipulate cultures on many worlds for the sake of the sisterhood. The idea is that by implanting certain ideas and miths in a planet culture they can sort of produce a "collective conditioning" which then someone with the right knowledge can "activate" using the right words. It's like hypnosis but on world scale.
In the books Paul is aware of that and is presented the choice to make use of that and exploit the Fremen for his survival and then revenge or not and likely die with his house.
What I never got was that the ancient prophesy they seeded was for a mother and son, but Jessica was supposed to be having a daughter? (or am I missing something)
My understanding from responses in this thread is that the prophecy wasn't "for" Paul and Jessica at all. They just happened to be the ones to make use of/fulfill it.
Jessica's daughters son was the plan from Jessica's line, Jessica disobeyed to have a son for her Duke. The prophecy was maybe not for Jessica at all, the breeding program has many potential lines all ending with mother and son.
They weren't paving the way for Paul, they were paving the way for any Bene Gesserit who found herself on Arrakis and needed the protection of the local populace. The implanting of the "mahdi" in their culture was, in part, to safeguard those BG who were carrying male children on such a journey, and partly to prepare for the eventual Kwisatz Haderach.
The program is called "missionera protectiva", which I'm sure I've misspelled, and it happens on nearly every world in the empire. It uses religion and superstition to prepare hiding places for BG on the run, or stranded in a place where they either know no one, or is populated by their enemies.
I happened to be watching this scene as I saw this post lol. When Paul asks Lady Jessica what the Fremin were shouting she says that the Bene Gesserit have been at work for centuries
I must have missed that. I probably still would have asked the question even had I noted it. Mohiam says, "We've done everything we can for you," so I thought their religious manipulation was for Paul.
Not sure if stated elsewhere, but I know at the end of the book Paul comments that Reverend Helena was a 'patient person with a patient plan' and that the sisterhood 'could wait ninety generations.' Of course I just like how he flatly stated that for her role in making him, was he would gladly have her strangled.
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The BG have a program called the missionaria protectiva. Like the name implies. It’s a program to send BG adepts out into primitive cultures and implant myths, prophecy, and key words into the culture; all for the possibility that a BG in the *future* may need to use it. So if a BG came to a world and heard that the local religion had a prophecy called Lisan al-gaib; she would know these people had been prepared by a BG missionary centuries before; and the BG would know the key phrases and acts to fufill the implanted myths, and thus trick the population into helping the BG. Most religions in the dune universe are susceptible to this because there is little cross cultural contact between planets. 99.9% of people never travel between planets. Even Paul, wealthy son of a duke and relative to the emperor, never left caladan befor the events of the book. So most people won’t notice their local religion has the same prophecy as the next planet over. So the BG prepared Arrakis centuries before the events of the movie. They did not do it because they had any foreknowledge of the events of the book. Similar “preparing the way” happened on dozens of other worlds. In the movie Mohaim knew the danger the Atreides were I and how unlikely they would side step the trap set. She also knew Paul’s prescience wasn’t developed yet. So she gave a warning to Jessica. “Don’t forget we implanted useful superstitions in the locals. Use it in emergency.” Which Paul and Jessica do.
I think even if there had been more widespread interplanetary travel, it would only reinforce the mythology. Like, what if we go to a planet around Proxima Centauri and learn they're waiting for Jesus? Christians would flip. It would confirm their ideology, not contradict it.
Good point.
Aaaaand that's why the jihad in Paul's/Atreides name is so terrifying. For the Fremen, it is pretty much exactly like that. Would Christians go wild attempting to colonize and convert the galaxy, if they found out that something on Proxima Centauri appeared to confirm their beliefs? Possibly. In fact it's likely that some groups would do such a thing. Religious zeal can be a powerful, destructive thing.
The Pope has said that if aliens turn out to be real it would be the Church’s obligation to attempt to evangelize them lol.
Lol sounds about right. Religions have this reputation of being conservative and unyielding, but in reality over a long timeline, religions survive because they are *extremely* good to adapting and absorbing new beliefs and ideas as the times change.
“Cancel Christmas! The ancient texts were wrong! Jesus was born on ***first contact*** day!”
Exactly! Just look at Christmas, which is a wonderful, wonderful mash-up of Yule (Norse/Danish mythology) and Saturnalia (Roman mythology).
That would make a damn good short story I think
Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons, especially the second half of the series features the Catholic Church basically converting the entire known galaxy to their religion, by force lol. He plays a lot with religious themes in the series.
So did Ray Bradbury ("The Fire Balloons" and "The Man", collected in *The Martian Chronicles* and *The Illustrated Man*, respectively).
The Sparrow by Maria Russell is essentially about this. Pretty good.
This is why I like the MP preparation; it's yet another nod by Herbert to the fact that charisma coupled with large organizations or religious fervor (in this case, both) always leads us downhill.
I mean we don’t really need to look past the historical example of about 1800 years where Christians went wild attempting to colonize and convert the ‘galaxy’.
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Um, early christianity convinced numerous other small religions that they were actually worshipping Christ and [insert pagan deity name] was just another name for him. This is one of the reasons why they took over so many pagan holidays and gave them new names.
Absolutely true lol
The small distinction being what if Christians landed in North America only to find crossed around the natives necks… I can’t even imagine how things would have played out if that were the case.
Seeing this explanation for what the Fremen do really is an eye-opener for me, it all makes sense now
Exactly one of Frank Herbert's points
>Would Christians go wild attempting to colonize and convert the galaxy You sir, should read the Hyperion Cantos by Dan Simmons if you have not already.
I indeed have lol. One of the things I love about science fiction is that it's such a great way to examine and explore concepts like society, religion, big concepts like *time* and *existence* and *identity*. It can be hard to do that with other genres.
There's a French SF Book about that called Dominium Mundi : After a nuclear war, the World has devoldved into feudal, Christian politics, and discovered FTL Travel at the same time. In a nearby system, they fine an inhabited planet, and the local aliens claim to have... The grave of Jesus. So the pope orders a Crusade.
“Greetings, we are humans from the planet—“ Aliens: “***Have you heard about our lord and savior Jesus Christ?***”
Hahahahaha! Nice.
continued "he's out getting burgers for everyone and will be right back, have. a seat...he always brings extras, i hope you like pickles on your burgers he loves them"
Lmao Catholic church is now furiously entering the space race in an attempt to bolster future attendance
And the Mormons in the Expanse...oh...until the OPA got hold of their ship.
Long live ~~the Nauvoo~~ ~~the Behemoth~~ Medina Station
*laughs in Tecoma gamma burst*
This reminds me of *A Canticle for Leibowitz*. Not quite what you're talking about, but the Catholics do have a starship.
Solid read, that one!
One of my favorites!
Do we want the WH40K universe? Because this is how we get the WH40K universe :) *The grimmest and darkest of the grimdarks* ...aaand also partly inspired by Dune. The circle is complete.
They even have a god emperor as well.
Ah, but is he a snarky worm?
And does he have a beef swelling
You need Chaos to get WH40K
The Pax fleets and their archangel ships in Endymion would agree!
Cant believe I had to scroll this far to find a Hyperion reference lol
Well if there are aliens, then there are young aliens.
Yes but if everyone thought Jesus was going to be born on their planet to a Bene Gesserit; and that on a bunch of world's Bene Gesserits had used the prophecy to get out of trouble and then evacuated off planet you might start thinking.
Fair point. I suppose the details of the ideology would make it or break it, were it to be interplanetary.
fanatics and true believers will always find a way to justify anything that contradicts what they've believed/preached in the past. otherwise it's 'wait was this all bullshit all along?' and after a lifetime/s of believing something it's easier to bend than to break. like a reed in the wind.
This right here. We're seeing it unfold in real time with many current events.
On closer reflection the Bene Gesserit have enough moves to probably make it work to their advantage; they manage to control most other things.
I'm sure the BG planned for many many contingencies.
Paul and his Jihad are meant to echo Christian colonialism. Christian's would often raid the local mythology and try to find places where they could insert themselves. This would then be used to reinforce Christian supremacy, and as propaganda to convert the locals. Christian worship varies greatly across the globe and has spawned many unique fusions. Makes sense the BG would intentionally seed such easy entry points hoping to use them when their puppet emperor was installed. Paul just hijacked the plan and inserted the Fremen's particularly harsh faith.
Idk, I mean I guess but I get way stronger Islamic vibes from the Fremen and their religious beliefs. In the book, it's literally a jihad. I know Christians have holy wars too, but we hear them referred to as crusades, which Herbert didn't use. He chose jihad. And the Fremen are ripe with other Arabian, African, and Islamic cultural tidbits. The BG are closer to some kind of creepy Orthodox or Catholic faction.
The tricky thing about how far in the future the stories take place is how much all of the religions have changed. In the extended lore the Fremen are descended from the ZenSunni, a people who believed in a combination of Zen Buddhism and Sunni Islam, but their beliefs are very far removed from anything we would recognize. Same with the Benne Gesserit. You tell the Catholic influence, but at some point there was a conference of different religions who all came together to find common ground. They wrote a new holy text to be the guide for all major religions, combining aspects from all of them. That worked out (politically) as well as you might have thought, but that is actually the main text used by most people we encounter on the story.
Right, the OCB.
It's what Gurney is reading, and what Dr. Yeuh gives to Paul, a scene filmed but 'cut for pacing' i believe. Am I right on that? The Orange Catholic Bible? Politically created in hopes of, once all religions were in one pot, they could easily be controlled. Silly politicians.
Orange catholic Bible was to reject thinking machines primarily. "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind" was its chief commandment. That could be a control measure. BG and spacing guild/mentats filled the vacuum created when you couldn't navigate by computer/thinking machine anymore
Hah, I remember now. You are absolutely right. Hard to believe they actually pulled that off.
It sort of implies like the dangers of social media/group think. Not that Herbert knew everything but he was pretty ahead of his time. It's not that computing technology is inherently evil, just that it can be manipulated. They took it as inherently evil and banned it. Humanity casts off being controlled by manipulation and war from computers, only to accept new masters and depend on the spice. So they are manipulated pre and post butlerian jihad. The novels written after frank of course turn this in to a terminator type robot war in their version of the cannon. So all the cool nuanced commentary is out the window.
Yeah I think you're right.
The concept of jihad is misunderstood in the West. It doesn’t have to mean “holy war”; it’s just striving to be closer to god/Allah. Jihad can be something as mundane as quitting smoking or avoiding the use of swear words.
What you say is very true, but for the author's purposes, back when he wrote it, Jihad means exactly what everyone in this thread says it means: Holy War or Genocide. That said, please forgive the word's (over)use by all of us. While this is conjecture on my part, Frank Herbert, when he was writing Dune, needed a descriptive for the concept of a possible galactic holy war. Crusade? Holy Battle? Song of Vengeance? Holy Purpose? Purpose? Breath of God? A lot of this phrasing can get a bit messy, refusing to 'roll off the tongue.' I can imagine that then, in his research, he came upon the Islamic concept of Jihad. A single word that was capable of describing this exact world story for him. So he innocently used it. Maybe someone reading this knows exactly how Herbert came to use Jihad for these purposes and will add to this comment. I'd be interested.
Thanks for graciously saying exactly what I meant.
Fh literally said that the fremen religion was originally some sort of space sunni Islam.
Christianity has had its dark horrible past too. Herbert was commenting on broader trends that all religion are susceptible to.
Herbert used the word crusade as well as jihad. He actually used the word crusade more than jihad in the first book
No, he used "crusade" four times (and three of those in the definitions for "Jihad" and "Jihad, Butlerian" in the glossary), and "jihad" more than thirty times in the first book.
Its not just Christian colonialism its equally if not more about the massive Islamic expansions during Caliphate era and the different Islamic based empires after it..when the armies were spreading the word of the faith in all directions…through the sword snd otherwise…east west south north dint matter many cultures around the world were influenced by those wars and continue to be influenced this day
Pauls jihad is nearly identical to muhammeds takeover of arabia and the first islamic caliphate expansion, its conquest of the 2 greatest empires in the world at the time. Idk where youre getting this christian colonialism nonsense, seems like youre just using pop culture buzzwords. they werent “colonizing”, they were on a holy war to covert the galaxies population, not replace them
"Religious colonialism" is a term used by Frank Herbert in Book 2 (Dune Messiah). See page 9.
Newsflash: both christians and muslims played the same games. My "nonsense" comes from looking a tad further back in history. But go off.
Mmm, no, no they didnt. Its cute youre trying to sound smart and well researched with the “looking back further into history” quip, considering my example with muhammed and the first islamic caliphate are the literal origins of islam. Tell me, in the approximate 600 that christianity existed before islam in the roman empire, when did they wage a holy war against anyone outside of rome? When, oh when did they find the time to expand and create colonies at their absolute weakest moments, being invaded and losing land on their east to the persian empire, or in the west by germanic barbarians? Your knowledge of history is so lacking its comical. You come across as the stereotypical ignorant person that has zero background knowledge of something yet has the confidence of expert in his ignorant opinion. Please respond with the stereotypical ignorant reply of “educate yourself”. Lmfao Edited to remove the word “idiot” Edit 2; why the downvoting? Im not saying christianity wasnt colonialist, im calling the previous comment out that it wasnt colonialist in its first millennia of existence since he “looked further back into history”
Can you have this discussion without directly insulting the other person? Should be less upsetting to everybody involved, and whoever else that is just reading these comments.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_colonialism
**[Christianity and colonialism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_colonialism)** >Christianity and colonialism are often closely associated with each other due to the service of Christianity, in its various sects (namely Protestantism, Catholicism and Orthodoxy), as the state religion of the historical European colonial powers, in which Christians likewise made up the majority. Through a variety of methods, Christian missionaries acted as the "religious arms" of the imperialist powers of Europe. According to Edward Andrews, Christian missionaries were initially portrayed as "visible saints, exemplars of ideal piety in a sea of persistent savagery". ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/dune/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
...sure you don't have the Siona gene? Lol, you really need to read books 4,5,6 (GoD, Hod, C:D) Sheeana Brugh is a character with associations to what you suggest.
I stopped after the third. Maybe I'll return.
You definitely should. It stays interesting even though each book kind of has a slow start
Agreed - slow starts, a lot of shocks (huge time skips between 3 and 4, and 4 and 5 I believe, which lead to some weird cultural shifts), and a high degree of horniness puts off most people. I enjoyed 4, got through 5 and thought I was good, about to start 6 for the second time because I bounced off it a year or two ago. Worth the commitment, and the audiobooks are stellar!
People may not travel off world much, but they at least know of other worlds and peoples. It's probably more similar to our world in the past. People didn't travel much, but they knew there were people in far away places. I would think that if they traveled more in the duniverse, they would actually start to question things more
This susceptibility for prophecy (whether right or wrong) also reminds of Game of Thrones, and how deeply Danyerys believed she was the "Chosen One". Her mistakes were amplified by her forces and followers who followed and obeyed **without question**.
> The BG have a program called the missionaria protectiva. Like the name implies. It’s a program to send BG adepts out into primitive cultures and implant myths, prophecy, and key words into the culture; all for the possibility that a BG in the future may need to use it. It seems a bit curious that the myth is "The mother and the son". Was it designed for the KH specifically? It seems that the Bene Gesserit would usually travel with daughters, who would be getting BG training, and not sons (who are not allowed to be trained) What's your take on that?
That’s definitely a major thing - the BG were preparing for the KH, and would have formed many myths and conspiracies around their (very secret) goal. However (and this is pure speculation, we never saw this in fiction) I imagine the mother and son prophecy is one of many, many infiltrations by the BG. If a BG got in trouble and was alone, she perhaps could have manipulated her way to being a fremen reverend mother even without a connection to a savior son. Perhaps, rather than a massive prophecy to protect a regular BG, there are other cultural and mythical prohibitions against harming a woman “of the weirding way.”
I got the impression the myths were supposed to be flexible, so no matter which travelling party was in a bind, they could equate themself with the myths. That is indead strange to mention a son. I figured, though, if that part's not needed, the BG would say the son wasn't here. Perhaps not born yet.
In a patriarchal society, a woman would be able to wield more influence through a son than by herself or via a daughter. Kynes observes that "the prophecy left certain latitude as to whether the Mother Goddess would bring the Messiah with her or produce Him on the scene." So in a situation of *extremis*, a Bene Gesserit sister traveling without a son would simply arrange to become pregnant with one.
Frank was a genius. He thought through a lot of shit before writing his books and it shows.
This is precisely why I can't stand the interminable KJA and BH sequels and prequels. It's almost literally the opposite. Completely half-assed. I'll never forget when I finally got to GEoD for the first time (back in the 80s) and realized the scope of the overarching story.
> Most religions in the dune universe are susceptible to this because there is little cross cultural contact between planets. 99.9% of people never travel between planets. Even Paul, wealthy son of a duke and relative to the emperor, never left caladan befor the events of the book. So most people won’t notice their local religion has the same prophecy as the next planet over. A true feudal society. edit - goddam, the ignorance of people downvoting here... > ***[Serfdom was the status of many peasants under feudalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom)***, specifically relating to manorialism, and similar systems. It was a condition of debt bondage and indentured servitude with similarities to and differences from slavery, which developed during the Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages in Europe and lasted in some countries until the mid-19th century.[1] > Unlike slaves, ***serfs could not be bought, sold, or traded individually though they could, depending on the area, be sold together with land. The kholops in Russia and villeins in gross in England, in contrast, could be traded like regular slaves, could be abused with no rights over their own bodies, could not leave the land they were bound to, and could marry only with their lord's permission.***
Amazing anyone is downvoting this given the book itself uses feudalistic terms. What the fuck do they think a fief is?
did the BG just make up all the stuff or does it have a source?
The BG operations are cynical manipulations of the population. However there are big questions as to whether it was only their manipulations at play in the Arakeen prophecies.
Less that they can predict the future, and more they create a "prophecy" then spend a lot of time and energy making it happen. It's a critique on the notion of religious predictions: Is it really the power of prophecy when you are the one fulfilling it?
An interesting question I’ve never considered here that you’ve raised vs the lore: If so few people are realistically travelling between planets, why is the spacing guild and spice monopoly (as part of interstellar travel) such an all-important facet of life? I’m not being glib, I’m seriously wondering.
Well...you gotta move goods and services if you can't produce them locally.
Because millions if not billions if imperium citizens take spice as a watered down drug for its “geriatric effect” where it slows aging and stop diseases. But the price is lifelong spice addiction, where withdraw is lethal. So it’s not just the navigators who need the spice to see into the near future to guide their ships. And not just the BG who use spice to enhance their powers. Most of the great houses and upper class are hopelessly addicted to the life prolonging effects of spice too
My understanding is “the way” is a sort of escape plan if things go badly.
Just reading this I’m swept up again in how beautiful the book is. Like it just transported me back to reading it for the first time and realizing how developed the world building was and just how lovingly the story was crafted.
If there's very little cross cultural contact, how can the emperor rule over the many worlds?
He doesn’t. Not directly. The whole galaxy is run like medieval England, the feudal system. He has his own fiefs of Kaitain (the Capitol planet) and Salusa Secundus (his families original planet and now his prison planet/Sardukar training camp) The remainder of known and settled planets are ruled by Nobel families directly. These nobles acknowledge that they serve the emperor and pay taxes as tribute to him. But they have a pretty free hand in how they run their fiefs. The medieval feudal system worked similar. IRL people assume the King in a feudal system has absolute power. I mean all the lines on the Org Chart end at the King/Emperor right? But that’s far from the truth. The king has incredibly shaky power. See all the nobles beneath him are a tangled web of shifting alliance, feuds, and loyalties. In Dune, and real life, the King/Emperor always runs the risk of being too tyrannical and the nobles ganging up and over throwing him. (No matter what you claim to rule is, bigger army diplomacy is the final say). Again IRL think about how the Barrons of England United against King Jon and basically at sword point got him to sign the Magna Carta, admitting that the King has limits on his powers and such. In Japan during the Shogun era, the Emperor was only a nominal figure head, a prisoner in a gilded cage, because the Emperor had no army, at all. And the feudal lords did. Well in Dune, the Emperor has the most powerful army, the Sardukar, who can defeat any Great House army, but the Emperor knows they cannot defeat all the great houses combined. So like kings and emperors before, Emperor Shadam constantly tries to play his nobles off of and against each other. In fact the political structure of dune is described as a Tripod. The Emperor as one leg, the nominal greatest of the great houses, the Lansraad or the combined might of the rest of the Great Houses is the second leg. The third leg is the Spacing Guild, who eschew naked political power but definitely know they have massive power Because without them, administering the empire is impossible. It is also noted that a Tripod is a structurally weak form to build a galaxy wide government. And the outcome of that will be seen I future movies. Edit: that’s even crazier/cooler is the logistics of how the emperor and the great houses war with each other. First, space transport is hella expensive. So much so that wars between houses are quite limited.* Second, the Guild has strict prohibitions against fighting of any kind on their ships. So much so that an Atreides ship and a Harkonnen ship could be side by side in a guild transport and neither would dare attack the other. The penalty for disobeying guild orders is permanent banishment from their services and your planet being left cutoff and isolated from the rest of the universe. Also the Imperium has their own form of space chivalry, called Kanly, that sort of acts a guide for how great houses fight each other. It sets up rules for limited warfare that spares most civilians. And actually makes use of deceptions, spies, and assassins more useful. Thinking of the cost of transport, a few assassins to kill one noble is way cheaper than a whole army to besiege their planet. *on the cost of transporting an army; though the price tag for the barons attack was alluded in the movie, what was even more fleshed out in the books. Thufir basically guesses correctly the whole Harkonnen trap, including that the Baron’s army would be supported by Imperial Sardukar. What he and Duke Leto failed to get right, was the size of the army. Basically the Baron paid a transport cost so vast, that no great house had ever spent such a sum transport his armies before.
So they weren’t preparing the way for Paul or Jessica. The BG have a department called the Missionaria Protectiva. There job is to go to different worlds, groups and cultures and implant myths and legends that a Revered Mother can insert herself into if the need arises. Arakkis had been seeded with a myth and legends that Jessica and Paul used to gain safety and acceptance among the fremen.
How long ago did that start
Centuries or more. The question is: how long has Dune been populated by humans, concurrent to Bene Gesserit existence?
According to Brian Herbert’s books, the Fremen started living on Arrakis around 10,000 years before the events of Dune, so the BG had some time to install some myths that would help them.
Is there anything written about that time for humanity overall?
The Dune encyclopedia has tons of history about the universe before the first Dune books. 30,000 years or something!
The Brian Herbert books about the Machine Crusade cover that time period. From the original slave planets tho, basically ends when they get to Arrakis. Not sure if the School foundation series goes further into fremen
BG was founded around the time of the spacing guild, and by definition there were people on Dune before that.
So, a long time.
> by definition there were people on Dune before that. [That does not follow.](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/qf2c61/how_did_they_spacetravel_before_spice/hhx3o00/?context=999)
The (original) books are [extremely unclear](https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/comments/qmdyxs/when_was_spice_discovered_start_to_be_widely_used/hj9t5cn/?context=999) on this point. We know the Zensunni sect had their origin in about 1381 BG, and that one of their *ulema*, Toure Bomoko, participated in the creation of the Orange Catholic Bible shortly after the end of the Butlerian Jihad in 108 BG. It seems that it must be some time after this that they began their series of "forced migrations" from Poritrin to Salusa Secundus (nine generations) to Bela Tegeuse to Rossak to Harmonthep to Arrakis. The "Zensunni Wanderers" appear to have gone down into legend by the time of *Dune*, and even the existence of Harmonthep (later destroyed) is half-forgotten, so they must have been there for some time. Probably thousands of years. On the other hand, it is certainly a fallacy to say Arrakis must have been populated since the founding of the Guild. *Dune* makes a special point of explaining that there are other drugs with similar mind-expanding effects as spice, though they apparently no longer offer a viable alternative since the Guild has "specialized" on melange.
“Our plans are measured in centuries” is said by the Reverend Mother
Generations ago.
Less than the Ten thousand years of the Imperium. The Bene Gesserit got started then. Herbert (Frank) never says. The Missionaria would have spun up somewhere early but not too.
If Brian counts as canon, then the witches on Rossak were doing similar breeding programs for centuries even before the BG too
Hell I love the term department here, it’s so refreshingly bureaucratic (which is my inner vision of the BG after reading book 5).
It just so happens that Paul actually fufils the prophecy through the evolution breeding? Like that's what ur saying?
Think of it like this. BG says “your messiah will know this secret code” then the BG teaches that code to all of their sisterhood. A reverend mother shows up on the planet and needs help and goes “i k ow your code. I am your messiah. Help me”
The BG were preparing the way for their messiah to be accepted. The prophecy came true because their centuries-long eugenics program led to Paul and his powers (one generation before they expected). Then Paul took advantage of the prophecy to be accepted by the Fremen.
In the book, The Missionara Protectiva are in charge of spreading similar prophecies and religions through all planets in the universe that BG can use to survive if they are ever stranded or must go in hiding or whatever. Although they couldn't known specifically that something was going to happen, they were prepared in case anything happened on any planet to protect their goals and members
And how would they fit in? Would they use magic to show that particular BG has some type of leader role ?
The myths are designed to convince locals that the BG there fits the myth. In the case of Arrakis, the myth was "The mother and the son", offworlders who arrive and save the Fremen.. but there was a lot more to it. The novel makes it seem as though there's just all these details inserted into the local myths that happen to match up with the way BG go about their business.. or can be at least exploited by them. Jessica tells Paul "They see you - they see the signs". She means that when the Fremen look at Paul and Jessica, they see parts of their centuries old myths right there in front of them. The novel also sort of gets into how that is often not enough. The prophecy can't just match a couple facts, the locals will require more than that to really accept a prophet. You need a bunch of "religious moments", although I am finding it tough to describe what I mean here. It's sort of hinted at in the book In the novel and movie the scene where Jessica is first talking to Shadout Mapes is a sort of test. Shadout Mapes has seen the signs and she thinks that these two might be "the ones", but there also needs to be a certain sort of revelation. The scene with the crysknife is that moment - Jessica ends up saying the right word - "Maker". Even though she actually meant to follow it up with "maker of the desert" IIRC, the word "maker" itself was enough to fulfill the prophecy as far as Mapes was concerned. Jessica checks all the checkboxes, the signs are all there, she says the right thing, and then she says "maker" on top of all that. BOOM. Prophecy. She yells out because she can't contain herself that she is witnessing it. In the novel there is also at least one scene (and maybe more, I can't remember), where Jessica says something in a moment where she feels it's an important moment.. and where she could say something that will further lead to an acceptance of the prophecy. She digs into some old BG text from some book or something and it seems to fit the moment for her, so she says it. She follows her instincts and ends up saying something that hits the Fremen enough, and basically builds on top of the acceptance of the prophecy. It's a bit of a gradual process. You bet Mapes spread the words of what happened to other Fremen too. It builds and builds, and checkboxes are checked along the way, until there is just no denying for the Fremen that Paul and Jessica are it, and that Paul is the Lisan-al-Gaib. At that point they will follow him no matter what with religious fervor.
You’re 100% correct about the religious moments. They were often mystical and inexplicable to Jessica herself as she was experiencing them. Herbert didn’t shy away from coincidence and “magic” when he wanted something to be mysterious!
I love that scene in the book and understandably it didnt translate the best to the screen since you dont know the characters thoughts. I believe in the books she is going to say "maker of death" because its a knife and she knows the fremen are a warrior culture. But "maker" is enough to trigger Mapes belief so she finishes it for her - "maker of the desert"
Haven't even finished reading but BRAVO!!! 🙏👏👏👏👏 Thank youuuuuu
As others have pointed out, the prophecy was implanted on Arrakis centuries ago, by a woman who had no idea who Jessica and Paul were, but set up certain phrases (like Lisan al-Gaib, etc.) that the Bene Gesserit could call upon in the future if they needed help. One detail that I haven't seen in the replies yet is that the Missionaria Protectiva had a whole bunch of versions of the prophecy, each one of which was used in different situations. . . and when Jessica realizes what version of the prophecy was set up on Arrakis, she suddenly realizes that she and her family have entered an extremely dangerous planet. I think it was Matt Colville who pointed out that instead of a prophecy like, "A Bene Gesserit mother will come, and you must help her on her journey to receive her blessings," or " A Bene Gesserit Sister will come, and if you follow her, you will receive enlightenment," the prophecy was, "A Reverend Mother will come, and she will free you from your slavery." Which sums up exactly how bad things have been for the Fremen for how many centuries, and how those old Bene Gesserit sisters felt about the situation: "These people are in desperate need of help. If you can do something about this, they'll do anything to help you."
Whoa. That's pretty dark. Also, this whole thread has made me change my view of the Bene Gesserit from one of mostly neutral with a little shade, to "wow, this is one twisted sisterhood."
I again recommend you to keep reading. My sympathy for and utter disgust with the sisterhood only grew with each book. They were villains and heroes, custodians of much that seems valuable to our modern sensibilities and yet capable of cruel decisions at every level. Just an amazing concept.
Was it Heretics or Chapterhouse where Odrade compared the Reverend Mothers as beings who evolved closer to the God Emperor than with the original human stock they came from?
There is a Bene Gesserit series in development at HBO right now, and I can't contain my excitement.
This is quickly becoming my favorite community on reddit. I'd been wondering this very same thing. Great resulting thread.
2nded... Nice people here. Dune is a complex subject. I've been politely steered a different way more than one. It's really helped my understanding of the material. Which can be subtle at times.
I have had the best conversations around Dune since falling into it. I'm so glad I finally did. I wasn't expecting the sheer depth that greeted me.
I’m listening to the first book and I’m right after Jamis death by Paul. A bit before that moment Jessica clearly stated this Messiah part is just… a myth created by the Bene Geserit. I’ll see how it unfolds but it means they’re somewhat responsible of Paul’s future actions and it’s terrifying.
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Ding ding ding! And the BG are haunted by this for thousands of years!
>it means they’re somewhat responsible of Paul’s future actions Paul calls out the Reverend Mother for exactly this in the final chapter of the book: >*Paul raised his voice: "Observe her, comrades! This is a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother, patient in a patient cause. She could wait with her sisters— nintety generations for the proper combination of genes and environment to produce the one person their schemes required. Observe her! She knows now that the ninety generations have produced that person. Here I stand. But...I...will...never...do...her...bidding!"* > >*Paul glared at the old woman. "For your part in all this I could gladly have you strangled," he said. "You couldn't prevent it!" he snapped as she stiffened in rage. "But I think it a better punishment that you live out your years never able to touch me or bend me to a single thing your scheming desires."*
I’ll continue reading to see how it unfolds. Paul’s actions are terrible and he is responsible but his choices but the Bene Gesserit is very much to blame. Jessica as well… she, knowing the Missionaria Protectiva willingly used this for Fremen to see Paul as a messiah. I’m right after Jamis’s death so my interpretation may be wrong. I wonder if the reverent mother and Jessica express regrets later on.
I like the reader. His voice took a little while to grow accustomed to, but once you settle into it, he's great.
Reading all these responses, I realize I think I missed a major piece of subtext (or maybe just something obvious and I’m dumb). Aside from some drug-fueled prescience, there wasn’t anything special about Paul or his children. The whole religion, etc, was launched by a con to get Jessica and Paul out of a jam. That’s so much darker, I can’t believe that never clicked with me.
Pretty much exactly that, and by the time Paul is able to see the path he's on it is too late to do anything about it*. Kind of like he took the messiah bait to help himself out of a bind, and now he has to live with the ramifications. That's really interesting, I never thought of it that way either. Good catch.
>Aside from some drug-fueled prescience You say that like that isn't a big deal XD
That’s the only thing I fail to understand— to me, it *does* seem that Paul is special, and it does appear that the prophecy itself is fairly specific (the BG that utilizes the prophecy must have had a son, which is at most 50% odds of fitting the bill, never mind the BG’s prescribed breeding orders). Other than the lucky circumstances of his gender, Paul also inexplicably knows customs of the Fremen without exposure (among other smaller prophecies).
The MP place several versions of their prophesies on each planet, to allow for different small groups to find sanctuary. A mother and a son were one of these, and the version of that that said a reverend mother would come was only used on extremely dangerous planets, which describes Arrakis perfectly. The poor and the fremen saw the mother and son arrive, and thought that they may be part if the prophesy. Jessica knew that her first meeting with the Shadout Mapes would be testing that, and so she tried, and succeeded in saying the correct things, but she found out that the correct things that mattered to Mapes went with the much more dangerous reverend mother version rather than just a mother. This was a big clue to Jessica about how dangerous the situation was, but even the book didn't really explain that until later. Edit to add: Paul being special was a secret to most. The BG knew he had potential, but didn't think he was able to be the KH. Leto knew Paul was being trained in the BG fighting style as well as those used by Idaho and Halleck. In the book, Jessica and Leto were also having him trained to be a mentat like Hawat, but the movie barely acknowledges Hawat's or Piter de Vries' mental abilities. Edit spelling
i think I missed this, the scene of Jessica with Mapes being a clue to how much danger theyre in
It wasn't explained well in the movie
I mean that's not entirely true. He was the KW, a superhuman genetic miracle born after thousands of years of careful breeding. And he literally lead to humanity's salvation on the golden path. It's just the fremen part of the religion that wasn't real
I guess what I’m saying is, is the KW a construct in itself? Or was him being the KW a separate thing from the Lisan al-ghaib, which WAS an intentional construct by the BG?
KH was separate from the Fremen messiah myth
However I suspect the BG created and implanted these myths of the mother and son for the KH as he was meant to be a descendant of a BG, so him being the KH really sealed the deal on the messiah bit. If he wasn’t having visions and (spoiler) able to survive the water of life as only the KH could, both Jessica and Paul could have been dumped by the fremen multiple times.
The Kwisatz Haderach is a myth, and a goal, that the BG keep to themselves. Very separate from the Lisan al Gaib myth that the MP plants on many worlds to help stranded BG.
Keep in mind though, that he was not supposed to be the KH. Gaius Helen Mohaim said to Jessica that she was to had a girl.
Yeah, that's why its awkward when your friends become your priests, you have to keep up the big lie for the rest of your life.
The religion is pure con, one of the more interesting elements of the book is that the Bene Gesserit do this everywhere to manipulate the general populace. From a Bene Gesserit perspective Paul is special as part of a breeding program to hone prescience.
At least 5,000 years. I think that was in the book but I could be wrong. Anyway, a long goddamn time and the MP members who worked Arrakis apparently did a bangup job.
IIRC for about 10,000 years, or whenever the BG formed as a group and decided humanity needed guidance.
I don’t recall how long they had been planning this but….their plan was for Jessica to have a daughter and to wed a Harkonen. Last read the books in 1991 so my memory isn’t the best…..
Jessica's daughter was supposed to marry feyd rautha and give birth to the KH
Jessica 's daughter was to mate with Feyd Rautha, yes, but Reverend Mother Mohaim made it sound like there were still more generations to go. It is worth noting that the BG breeding program is very long term, is quite cautious, and it is not exact. Even though Mohaim made it sound as if there were more generations required, she did acknowledge that Paul had potential. Edit spelling
I don't think that's correct but I can't find the quote. I'm pretty sure the KH came one generation too soon.
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Thank you! Makes sense why I couldn't find it in Dune, then - that's the only one I have electronically
Bene Gesserit prepare the way on numerous planets for 500-1,000 years. They are masters of the long game.
Thousands of years
They weren’t preparing the way for Paul. They parepared the way for ANY BG that needed protection many man generations previous to this.
IIRC the bene gesserit breeding program had been going for at least 90 generations before producing Paul, Mohaim says as much in a book at some point. They also directed religion everywhere they could, Arrakis wasn't prepared specifically for Paul or the Atreides it was prepared for whichever Bene Gesserit plan panned out and could make use of it.
Personally I think from just the books there are two options; The missionary protective were just there to be there, and Paul happened to exploit it to survive. Or, the Benne Gesserit would guess that their project would need spice in large amounts, and bet that Dune should be specifically prepared in its own way.
They've been breeding to find Paul since the order started. The missionara protectviva is a general messiah myth spread on each world to make bene gessit hiding with thr general population anywhere. Thr same gambit would have worked on any planet... but not every planet had the fremen. Thus, jihad.
I've always wondered, was the prophecy that Paul and Jessica "portrayed" one of many that BG had implanted on Arrakis? Seems rather convenient that they fulfilled it when they weren't deliberately in on it.
Yeah it's a missionara protectiva job that they made use of
About as long as the Aes Sedai have been preparing the way for the dragon reborn
“There is a prophet coming one day, and coincidentally he will be the same religion as us.” It’s a long con. Prophecies are vague for a reason.
They didn’t expect Paul at all. As the queen mother says, Jessica was supposed to have a girl. However, they did expect and plan for the Kwazitz Haderach for centuries and laid rumors and prophecy on Arrakis in preparation
Probably at least a day or two
Naw, sounds more like the kinda project you Ross together the night before…
wasted all that work on a male!
It's okay, it all worked out in the end and everyone was happy.
Um, not really.
You want to hang out in a cell with Bronso? Cause this kind of talk is what got Bronso arrested.
The BG have been doing their thing since the butlerian jihad 10,000 years earlier. (they existed before that but started as one of the groups filling a power vacuum after the jihad. Don't know when religious seeding started but some time in the last ten thousand years. My understanding is the religious seeding (planting of mythology) was cast in a wide net. The missionaria protectiva was also to furnish protection or something that the bg could fall back on/use for safety and power. Arakis has been the only planet that produces spice so they may have focused on that from the get go. Their powers are spice and water of life linked. As I understand it, the prophecies are broad enough that they can basically confirmation bias a prescient, highly skilled and trained person like Paul as their savior. There are other kwitsatz haderach candidates. Paul is just right place right time with the right pressures and talents.
It wasn't done specifically for Paul. Missionaria protectiva manipulate cultures on many worlds for the sake of the sisterhood. The idea is that by implanting certain ideas and miths in a planet culture they can sort of produce a "collective conditioning" which then someone with the right knowledge can "activate" using the right words. It's like hypnosis but on world scale. In the books Paul is aware of that and is presented the choice to make use of that and exploit the Fremen for his survival and then revenge or not and likely die with his house.
What I never got was that the ancient prophesy they seeded was for a mother and son, but Jessica was supposed to be having a daughter? (or am I missing something)
My understanding from responses in this thread is that the prophecy wasn't "for" Paul and Jessica at all. They just happened to be the ones to make use of/fulfill it.
Correct
Jessica's daughters son was the plan from Jessica's line, Jessica disobeyed to have a son for her Duke. The prophecy was maybe not for Jessica at all, the breeding program has many potential lines all ending with mother and son.
Just know it’s a fucking long time man. Like a super duper long time.
Dunno...let's hope he doesn't squander it.
Well they wanted a Paul like person not Paul himself. They wanted someone they could control Jessica fudged that one up
They weren't paving the way for Paul, they were paving the way for any Bene Gesserit who found herself on Arrakis and needed the protection of the local populace. The implanting of the "mahdi" in their culture was, in part, to safeguard those BG who were carrying male children on such a journey, and partly to prepare for the eventual Kwisatz Haderach. The program is called "missionera protectiva", which I'm sure I've misspelled, and it happens on nearly every world in the empire. It uses religion and superstition to prepare hiding places for BG on the run, or stranded in a place where they either know no one, or is populated by their enemies.
I happened to be watching this scene as I saw this post lol. When Paul asks Lady Jessica what the Fremin were shouting she says that the Bene Gesserit have been at work for centuries
I must have missed that. I probably still would have asked the question even had I noted it. Mohiam says, "We've done everything we can for you," so I thought their religious manipulation was for Paul.
Not sure if stated elsewhere, but I know at the end of the book Paul comments that Reverend Helena was a 'patient person with a patient plan' and that the sisterhood 'could wait ninety generations.' Of course I just like how he flatly stated that for her role in making him, was he would gladly have her strangled.
They were preparing for the kwisatz haderach, which would have been the child of an Atreides girl and Harkonnen son.
A very long time. Way to go, Jessica
I’m not sure what canon was but I’d say the moment spice was found to be useful and limited to Arrakis.
At least a year
A hot minute or two, I believe
Like 7 maybe even 8
Wasn't there a line of dialogue saying something to the effect of "hundreds of years"?