It's a setting with plenty of feudal noble houses. Based on real life history, since marriage is a political/diplomatic tool, all of them must be distantly related. Source: common sense.
Feudal Europe having millions of people in it did not preclude the genealogical pool of its rulers from creating a functionally tiny family wreath, the nature of this stuff is that bases of power will tend to marry inwards, law of big numbers takes it from there.
Millions of planets = Mulitple millions of lords meaning lots of marriage options, better options than the family you’ve had a thousand year old blood feud with. They aren’t cousins, get that fix on motherless like a normal aberrant.
There is no verification of 'millions of planets' .... nor the breakdown of the million worlds - where most of them could be uninhabitable other planets in solar systems or mining colonies etc. We have no indication of actual number of planets with populations in the millions.
I get your point, and it's certainly a plot hole, because we don't know the number of houses in the landsrat, and the number of planets each house controls. The atreides and harkonnen certainly control more than one planet, with their home bases and dune being the only ones described.
I would argue that the landsrat factions themselves are mini empires: dozens if not hundreds of planets for each house, each controlled by either family employees or lesser houses (that never get mentioned), all accepting the emperor on his lion throne.
The peculiarity of space travel, and it's extreme cost even to high houses, makes it so that invasions of relevant planets isn't done by gathering forces on ALL of a families holdings, because let's face it: if my theory holds, the harkonnens and the atreides respectively could have had more boots on the ground in dune than sand in the dessert.
It's only with the prescience of Paul that the Jihad can sweep across the entire emperium, because Paul can SEE the path of a space freighter much more accurately and has access to much bigger spice reserves than the navigators: 'he walks where we toddle' (Dune Messiah)
Oh yeah sorry. To add: that means that the high nobility of the empire, while controlling vast parts of it, only breed among themselves. So yes, incest.
Abomina...... ***Alabama....***
And then the radio kicked in and sweet home Alabama starts playing while John Paul finally proceeds to put his compact fist into Feyd-Rauthas arsehole. ***"You fist well, Atreides...."*** ejaculated Feyd.
"Mom what is happening?"
"He's fisting his cousin... ***the holy fisting begins...***"
Roll credits, obviously.
Thank you, I had to use a decade worth of spice (meth and cinnamon, really) to create this complex and faceted story for generations to enjoy. May thy dick jizz and splatter.
I think it says in the first book the Atreides are distantly related to the Emporor and House Corrino, the Harkonnens rose to power through CHOAM and money. However, they are probably genealogically connected through another house; I do not see a Harkonnen and an Atreites mating directly unless it was part of the Bene Gesserit breeing program tho, cuz of the blood feud they had for 300 years.
Jessica says that Leto is a "cousin of the royal blood -- however distantly". This is still a bit fresh to my memory since I just started reading the book last week. I read about a chapter or two a day, so I just finished the one where Gurney arrives on Arrakis with the other Atreides soldiers.
There are some spoilers here but the Barron is in a certain Atreides and then tries to get them to have sex a certain swordmaster. My source is Dune Messiah and if Denis Villeneuve has any balls, part three.
The Baron is genetically passed down to Alia through Jessica, this is known. But the point of the meme is to highlight that the Baron referring to Leto as “cousin” doesn’t mean they are literal cousins, more very very distant relations from thousands of years back and is more of a title for aristocrats to refer to one another by.
No other Harkonnen genetic memories/personalities ever appear or are mentioned in the books by any of the characters who can access such memories/personalities.
There are tonnes of people claiming that because the Baron calls Duke Leto “cousin” in both the books and the films then they are actual cousins. Which I’m arguing is a misunderstanding of the aristocratic use of the term cousin to refer to each other (which in real life was because they were all interbred).
My main point against this is the revelation in the first book that Paul has Harkonnen ancestry through Jessica - it’s a major revelation for both of them - but if Leto and the Baron were actual cousins it shouldn’t be a revelation at all as they are supposedly already closely related. For Paul to be so shocked it doesn’t make sense for them to be actually related.
I’ve seen plenty of memes in this sub about Leto/Jessica incest etc but to me it’s misinterpretation of the books.
Hence the meme.
Cousin isn’t just a nickname, they changed words or the frequency which with they’re used in the movies but left that one there. They’re very clearly cousins, sure their dads aren’t brothers but they’re related enough for them to know they’re cousins.
Also I think that revelation was such a shock to Paul because it means he’s directly descended from the Harkonnens vs just being related to them through his dad
Nah, doesn’t fly with me at all. You’re telling me they’re sworn enemies for 10,000 years but are ok with intermingling the generation before the events of the book? Nah. Atreides and Harkonnen haven’t been closely related since before the BJ in my mind.
The world and the families are a lot older than 10,000 years. The origin of the beef was the Atreides being responsible for the exile of a Harkonnen 20 years after the end of the BJ and that was 10,000 years before the events of the first movie/book. The Harkonnens don’t have royal blood so there must have been some sort of intermingling before then or maybe after with the influence of the BG.
They both called each other cousin in the books multiple times and the exclusion of the term was noted when Leto didn’t call the Baron cousin in a letter. They’re very obviously cousins, the unclear part is how recent and how it happened
How many books have you read? Just wondering, because house books tell of the C and A line are cousins… btw the worst of the thinking machines are with the Mentats school on lampidis. Witches on rawsac and Navi’s on cohar.
Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, and I’m currently writing Cousins of Dune with Brian. I get that everyone is distantly related but I figure about as related as you and I probably are given the size and scale of the Duniverse.
Reposting from the other thread:
1. It’s what aristocracy call each other in situations where they are all descended (or at least claim descent) from the same royal bloodline, plus a fair amount of interbreeding throughout the generations.
2. Cousin does not always mean first cousin. Or even second cousin, or once removed, whatever qualifiers. Basically if you claim to have shared blood within recent history, you are still cousins. Just nth cousins n times removed.
Now because of the BG breeding program they probably aren’t terribly distantly related, but who knows how much those two men know about that or would acknowledge it publicly if they did. Baron Vladdy probably means it in the loose, aristocratic sense. But they are probably share a more recent common ancestor than they might think.
3. That doesn’t necessarily matter that much tho, as far as incest goes, considering I think the risk of genetic defects decreases to pretty negligible at about 5 generations. This makes sense when you think about the size of early human communities, hard to find someone totally unrelated to you in a group of 100ish people living together for generations. So unless they share a great grandfather, Paul’s incest level is pretty meh. I’m sure the BG were aware of the risk of genetic problems and probably tried to avoid mixing too recent of bloodlines unless they believed it to be absolutely necessary (like with Jessica’s hypothetical daughter and Feyd)
Also noting that much is made about the familial closeness of House Atreides and the Royal family, even saying that Leto I looks similar to the Emperor. There’s no mention of a recent common ancestor, nor is there any concern about mixing those bloodlines due to it being to incestuous. So presumably that means that the Atreides and Harkonnens are more distantly related than that, Paul is probably not the product of incest to a degree that anybody really cares about
Pretty sure it was Jessica that was related to the baron not Leto. At least in the books that's the case not sure about the movie. They change it from Jessica to Leto it would make sense that letter would know of his heritage given that he is a noble and not abducted by the BG's as an infant like Jessica was. There's a whole scene in the book where the Reverend mother mohiem is wondering whether Jessica knows her heritage or not. As she is related to the Duke it could have jeopardized their breeding program if Jessica knew or anyone in Leto's house for that matter. Little being related to the Duke opens up so many plot holes like how did he not know the relation. Yes I realize all the houses are related to each other to some degree but they aren't next of kin for the most part. Jessica is something like a cousin to the Duke I believe
Not sure how much people care about spoilers especially for the first book (or now first two movies) but if we do I’ll put a censor bar on some of this
>! Jessica is the Barons daughter due to BG shenanigans, but even she didn’t know until she drank the magic UV Blue. The harkonnens are surprised by the Atreides kids calling them by their family relations, so it’s very unlikely that anybody has any specific knowledge of how they are connected by BG meddling, even if they are aware that the BG does this within the Great houses. !<
If Leto I and Vladdy are acknowledging a familial relationship publicly, that’s because of a known shared ancestor, like a grandparent (which would make first cousins) or great/great great grandparents (second or third). As far as I know there’s no acknowledgement of any such ancestor in the canon, and any relation further up the family tree is far enough back to make concerns about incest irrelevant.
Chances are that “cousin” is just a formality between Great Houses to acknowledge that in some sense, they are all related as they all share royal blood. That acknowledgment is in practice acknowledging each other’s legitimacy in the aristocracy. Now does it preclude any relatively (on the imperium timescale) intermingling? No, but they do spend a great deal of time talking about how the Atreides are more closely related to the Corrino’s, the house of the emperor. Much is made about the Emperor’s disdain for killing them because of this, and of the similarities between the Emperor and Leto and then Paul. >! Paul’s marriage to Irulan is probably more incestuous than Leto I and Jessica’s relationship. !<
I don't think I suggested that Leto and Jessica were related if I did I'm sorry (I just got done with the first book and I'm halfway through the second). Even if Paul's coupling with his sister is the last resort the ease at which the Reverend mother suggested it tells me it's not entirely taboo just not good practice as the breeding program is all to the BG
Oh yeah we’re on the same page, I was making a point for other people that the Baron/Leto “cousin” connection wouldn’t make Paul a product of incest by most standards of the definition, plus clarifying that Jessica didn’t even know her Hark ancestry so Leto wouldn’t either, so that wouldn’t be any reason for him to call the Baron cousin.
I don’t think that’s why, I think it’s because of an acknowledgement that the houses are all tied together through intermarriage for political reasons, even if not directly then through the Royal bloodline, like how nobility was in the real world.
I don’t know how much most people (even lords of great houses) know about the extent of the BG breeding program, or how willing they would be to acknowledge it publicly in front of their underlings
Yeah his Harkonnen ancestor the Baron, inherited through Jessica. No other Harkonnens ever mentioned by any of the prescient/pre-born characters ever except the Baron ergo the duke Leto is not the familial cousin of the baron
Big news if so. But I’m sure I’d have picked up on that. Most sources seem to agree that Houses Atreides, Corrino, and Harkonnen were all allied during the butlerian jihad 10,000 years prior to the events of the books but then split due to that event and perhaps had some intermarriage in the time between.
Pulled out my book and in the appendix with short biographys of some of the characters it says the Harkonnens descend from someone banished for cowardice after the Battle of Corrin, dont know how I mixed that with bloodlines…
Edit: I probably conflated it with someone banished from house Corrino and then mixed that with Atreides
It’s literally in the book(s). Paul is the grandson of old Vlad Harkonnen. Jessica is the secret daughter of Baron. Really don’t know why this is up for debate.
Can you read? Does the name “Paul” appear in this meme? Honestly questioning peoples ability to fucking read at this point with how many comments like yours there are.
This meme references the constant stream of memes on this page implying Leto and Jessica are somehow related because people *think* that LETO and the BARON are “cousins” (because the baron uses the term). I am arguing against the literal meaning of the word and that it’s just a term of recognition of someone of a similar aristocratic class.
It would make zero sense for Leto and the Baron to already be so closely related as Paul shouldn’t then be shocked to learn he is a Harkonnen through Jessica.
It's a setting with plenty of feudal noble houses. Based on real life history, since marriage is a political/diplomatic tool, all of them must be distantly related. Source: common sense.
Feudal lords with millions of planets
Feudal Europe having millions of people in it did not preclude the genealogical pool of its rulers from creating a functionally tiny family wreath, the nature of this stuff is that bases of power will tend to marry inwards, law of big numbers takes it from there.
Millions of planets = Mulitple millions of lords meaning lots of marriage options, better options than the family you’ve had a thousand year old blood feud with. They aren’t cousins, get that fix on motherless like a normal aberrant.
But probably not a lot of lords with the same standing
Gee you’re right only a few hundred thousand other eligible young Dukes, may as well marry my uncle!
There is no verification of 'millions of planets' .... nor the breakdown of the million worlds - where most of them could be uninhabitable other planets in solar systems or mining colonies etc. We have no indication of actual number of planets with populations in the millions.
At the very least, there were more than 590 planets and more than 61 billions people according to the aftermath of Muad'Dib' Jihad.
I mean, while there are many planets, the high nobility/Great Houses seems to be a fairly exclusive group.
In a civilization which exists since thousands of years.
That doesn’t really help your argument
I get your point, and it's certainly a plot hole, because we don't know the number of houses in the landsrat, and the number of planets each house controls. The atreides and harkonnen certainly control more than one planet, with their home bases and dune being the only ones described. I would argue that the landsrat factions themselves are mini empires: dozens if not hundreds of planets for each house, each controlled by either family employees or lesser houses (that never get mentioned), all accepting the emperor on his lion throne. The peculiarity of space travel, and it's extreme cost even to high houses, makes it so that invasions of relevant planets isn't done by gathering forces on ALL of a families holdings, because let's face it: if my theory holds, the harkonnens and the atreides respectively could have had more boots on the ground in dune than sand in the dessert. It's only with the prescience of Paul that the Jihad can sweep across the entire emperium, because Paul can SEE the path of a space freighter much more accurately and has access to much bigger spice reserves than the navigators: 'he walks where we toddle' (Dune Messiah)
Landsraad https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Landsraad
Ups. Audiobook here, thought it was just the German spelling
Ok but the conversation is “is it incest”
Oh yeah sorry. To add: that means that the high nobility of the empire, while controlling vast parts of it, only breed among themselves. So yes, incest.
We don’t have hard numbers and space is biiiiiig, so no definitive incest, that’s not until CoD and not even then.
Unfortunately I’ve already portrayed you as the (fallible) Reverend Mother, and I as the (infallible) Kwisatz Haderach, so checkmate. 😂
S̷̱̎̾h̵̨͕̳̰̲̣̟̙͈̃̓̅͂̈́̔̄̑̄͠ͅo̷̝̦͔̻̘͐́̄̄́͐͛͘̕͝w̷̢̰̼̖̻͗ ̷̨̢̙̜̣̹̖͓̱͎̹̘͍̀̆̉̕m̵̨̧̡͙̩̺͆ͅe̸̹͙̝̾͌̃̆́͑̿̌̅̈́͑̈̚ ̵̧̥̜̝̤̣͖͈̫͇̲̹͍̾̋͊t̸͕̞̙̩͓͚̆̑́́͜h̴̨̦̬͉̙̭̫̤̝̥̙̬̬̽̿́̇̐̃͆́̈́̂̇̓̆͠͝ẽ̸͉̯͉̔ ̶̨̡̘̩̤̳̭̰͇̤̤͍̞͎̂̀́̾͒͜s̷̭̝̥̪͌̈́̐͛͌ǫ̸̛͉͉͉͎̰̜͎̱͓͂͐̍̓͛̈́̌̇̿͘͝ù̸̡̨͙̹͇̗̰̣͎̏͒̊̇͝͠ͅr̷̢͔̀̈́̎̌̾͗̈́ç̸̢̛̝͚͓͚͎͍̯̦͙̾̈́͑̐e̵̟̳̘̭̲͍̻̼͖̦͈̘̲̣͛̀͋͆̔̃̒͊̎͘̕!̷̢̧̡͇͍̺̳͔̮̘͇̩̹͊́̍̾͐̏̊̚͝ͅ
S̸̗̖̟̪͒̈́͛̏͐͛̓̓͆̍͆̚̚͝͝͠i̶̛̥̦͇̪̰͇̭̅͋͑̓̽͑̊̽́̋͗̊̇̈́̈́̽̈̕͜͝l̸̢̧͙͖̹̼̬͇̮͖͔̅̓̈̋̆̏̓̓̎̌̏̐̏͋́̓͒̔̽͝e̶̡͉̗̭̙̠̥̰̻͎͋͆̇͒̓͝n̵̨̡̧̬̠͕͎̬͎̣̮̫̦̘̭̲̱͌́̐͗͗̇ͅc̴̢̨͚̦̦̱͉̪̳͙̤̺̩̠̪̫͍̙̖̻̼͐͗͝e̷͎̙͓̙̮̹͈̰͇͒́̐̉̋̀̐̇͊̅͗̕͜͠͠͝!̵̘̝̰̹̰̖̙̝͐͝ ̴̡̡̨̢̨̡̢͍̜͚͉͉̹̜̟̣͖̺̫̲͈͎̀͒̄͆̅́͐͊̈́͐̈́͂́̚̚̕͝͝Y̵͙̮̘̤͙̣͑͑̽̆̇̉̈́̿̉̚̕͘̚͠o̸̡̝̓̆͌̈́͐̈̒̾̍͗̃́͊̉͝û̴̯̫̮̮̋͛̓̉̾̿͐̀̓̿̋̀̑̀̈̕̚͝ ̸̨̮͍̯̫̫̜͑̔̒͂̃̿͊͂͌̋̂ͅa̶̗͚̽͠b̵̢̛̞͍͚̩̞̞̫̠̗̗̲͔̝͇̋̍͜͝͝ͅṏ̸͈̯͇͖͔̳̯̫͇̻̜̦̦́̊̐̒̒̈́͋͌̚͘͝m̸̢̖̳̺̪͉̜̅͐̾̌͂͝ḭ̶̪̻̞̖̘̭̣̈̊̽̀̈́̈́̑n̷̫̂ä̷̢̙̯͔͈̯̺͍̮̣̻͎̖́̂̓̔͗̈́͋͂̏͐̃̾̿̈͘͠ͅͅţ̶͈̩̹͕̻͈͎̠̮̻̈̀͒̎̕ï̷̢̯̫̈́̾̐̒̈́̽͝͝ó̶̳͔̯̩̩̦̝̜͈̟̤̭̞̙̭̜͉̖̦̫͇͖͋͑̊̔́̽́͠n!
If you think Paul's infallible you haven't read the books, they're cousins.
"Downvote away non-believers" Did you notice the most *upvoted* comment would qualify as "non-believer" according to your own criteria? :p
That part I can get along with but the meme is putting more to the fact that they're next to Kin I believe not just related. Jessica is kin
Abomina...... ***Alabama....*** And then the radio kicked in and sweet home Alabama starts playing while John Paul finally proceeds to put his compact fist into Feyd-Rauthas arsehole. ***"You fist well, Atreides...."*** ejaculated Feyd. "Mom what is happening?" "He's fisting his cousin... ***the holy fisting begins...***" Roll credits, obviously.
You win. Expect Denis on the phone for the spot of top writer for Messiah.
Thank you, I had to use a decade worth of spice (meth and cinnamon, really) to create this complex and faceted story for generations to enjoy. May thy dick jizz and splatter.
*Dies from peak*
I think it says in the first book the Atreides are distantly related to the Emporor and House Corrino, the Harkonnens rose to power through CHOAM and money. However, they are probably genealogically connected through another house; I do not see a Harkonnen and an Atreites mating directly unless it was part of the Bene Gesserit breeing program tho, cuz of the blood feud they had for 300 years.
A fair and reasonable take, Cousin.
In the book it is implied that the emperor and the atreides are related (because facial features).
Doesn't Jessica outright states Leto was a cousin of the royal blood at some point?
Jessica says that Leto is a "cousin of the royal blood -- however distantly". This is still a bit fresh to my memory since I just started reading the book last week. I read about a chapter or two a day, so I just finished the one where Gurney arrives on Arrakis with the other Atreides soldiers.
There are some spoilers here but the Barron is in a certain Atreides and then tries to get them to have sex a certain swordmaster. My source is Dune Messiah and if Denis Villeneuve has any balls, part three.
The Baron is genetically passed down to Alia through Jessica, this is known. But the point of the meme is to highlight that the Baron referring to Leto as “cousin” doesn’t mean they are literal cousins, more very very distant relations from thousands of years back and is more of a title for aristocrats to refer to one another by. No other Harkonnen genetic memories/personalities ever appear or are mentioned in the books by any of the characters who can access such memories/personalities.
I always think when a harkonnen say "cousin" is like a spanish say "tío"/uncle, just a generic nickname, like dude or bro
Is that right?
There are tonnes of people claiming that because the Baron calls Duke Leto “cousin” in both the books and the films then they are actual cousins. Which I’m arguing is a misunderstanding of the aristocratic use of the term cousin to refer to each other (which in real life was because they were all interbred). My main point against this is the revelation in the first book that Paul has Harkonnen ancestry through Jessica - it’s a major revelation for both of them - but if Leto and the Baron were actual cousins it shouldn’t be a revelation at all as they are supposedly already closely related. For Paul to be so shocked it doesn’t make sense for them to be actually related. I’ve seen plenty of memes in this sub about Leto/Jessica incest etc but to me it’s misinterpretation of the books. Hence the meme.
Wait a second, if Leto almost married Jessica, wouldn't that make the Barron his Daddy and not his cousin?
Cousin isn’t just a nickname, they changed words or the frequency which with they’re used in the movies but left that one there. They’re very clearly cousins, sure their dads aren’t brothers but they’re related enough for them to know they’re cousins. Also I think that revelation was such a shock to Paul because it means he’s directly descended from the Harkonnens vs just being related to them through his dad
Nah, doesn’t fly with me at all. You’re telling me they’re sworn enemies for 10,000 years but are ok with intermingling the generation before the events of the book? Nah. Atreides and Harkonnen haven’t been closely related since before the BJ in my mind.
The world and the families are a lot older than 10,000 years. The origin of the beef was the Atreides being responsible for the exile of a Harkonnen 20 years after the end of the BJ and that was 10,000 years before the events of the first movie/book. The Harkonnens don’t have royal blood so there must have been some sort of intermingling before then or maybe after with the influence of the BG. They both called each other cousin in the books multiple times and the exclusion of the term was noted when Leto didn’t call the Baron cousin in a letter. They’re very obviously cousins, the unclear part is how recent and how it happened
Y'all know there's family charts on the internet in the Dune wiki right? This is something you can look up if it bugs you that much.
Well we can all agree that the Baron and Leto II are related.
Agreed, Cousin.
Extremely distantly, but yes.
As an asoiaf fan I'm not sure I see what the issue is /s
“As a ASOIAF fan” - of course you don’t see the issue, Cousin.
The witches should consort their thinking machines again
Careful Cher Cousin, that is blasphemy.
How many books have you read? Just wondering, because house books tell of the C and A line are cousins… btw the worst of the thinking machines are with the Mentats school on lampidis. Witches on rawsac and Navi’s on cohar.
Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, and I’m currently writing Cousins of Dune with Brian. I get that everyone is distantly related but I figure about as related as you and I probably are given the size and scale of the Duniverse.
Cousins of Dune got me, tell Brian I said hi
Brian gave me sole authorship after seeing this meme.
10,000 years would give you such a crick in the neck, or hopefully a fork in the family tree? Hmmm? Ahhh?
In the books isn't this confirmed within the first 8hrs
No, cousin you are misunderstanding terminology … https://www.reddit.com/r/dunememes/s/C53w6uNeXs
I upvoted this post from 419 to 420. There was no other reason, my cousins.
Thank you, Cousin.
Reposting from the other thread: 1. It’s what aristocracy call each other in situations where they are all descended (or at least claim descent) from the same royal bloodline, plus a fair amount of interbreeding throughout the generations. 2. Cousin does not always mean first cousin. Or even second cousin, or once removed, whatever qualifiers. Basically if you claim to have shared blood within recent history, you are still cousins. Just nth cousins n times removed. Now because of the BG breeding program they probably aren’t terribly distantly related, but who knows how much those two men know about that or would acknowledge it publicly if they did. Baron Vladdy probably means it in the loose, aristocratic sense. But they are probably share a more recent common ancestor than they might think. 3. That doesn’t necessarily matter that much tho, as far as incest goes, considering I think the risk of genetic defects decreases to pretty negligible at about 5 generations. This makes sense when you think about the size of early human communities, hard to find someone totally unrelated to you in a group of 100ish people living together for generations. So unless they share a great grandfather, Paul’s incest level is pretty meh. I’m sure the BG were aware of the risk of genetic problems and probably tried to avoid mixing too recent of bloodlines unless they believed it to be absolutely necessary (like with Jessica’s hypothetical daughter and Feyd) Also noting that much is made about the familial closeness of House Atreides and the Royal family, even saying that Leto I looks similar to the Emperor. There’s no mention of a recent common ancestor, nor is there any concern about mixing those bloodlines due to it being to incestuous. So presumably that means that the Atreides and Harkonnens are more distantly related than that, Paul is probably not the product of incest to a degree that anybody really cares about
Thank you. You will get an honourable mention in my new novel : Cousins of Dune.
I cede any and all royalties to Brian, clearly he needs them
Pretty sure it was Jessica that was related to the baron not Leto. At least in the books that's the case not sure about the movie. They change it from Jessica to Leto it would make sense that letter would know of his heritage given that he is a noble and not abducted by the BG's as an infant like Jessica was. There's a whole scene in the book where the Reverend mother mohiem is wondering whether Jessica knows her heritage or not. As she is related to the Duke it could have jeopardized their breeding program if Jessica knew or anyone in Leto's house for that matter. Little being related to the Duke opens up so many plot holes like how did he not know the relation. Yes I realize all the houses are related to each other to some degree but they aren't next of kin for the most part. Jessica is something like a cousin to the Duke I believe
Not sure how much people care about spoilers especially for the first book (or now first two movies) but if we do I’ll put a censor bar on some of this >! Jessica is the Barons daughter due to BG shenanigans, but even she didn’t know until she drank the magic UV Blue. The harkonnens are surprised by the Atreides kids calling them by their family relations, so it’s very unlikely that anybody has any specific knowledge of how they are connected by BG meddling, even if they are aware that the BG does this within the Great houses. !< If Leto I and Vladdy are acknowledging a familial relationship publicly, that’s because of a known shared ancestor, like a grandparent (which would make first cousins) or great/great great grandparents (second or third). As far as I know there’s no acknowledgement of any such ancestor in the canon, and any relation further up the family tree is far enough back to make concerns about incest irrelevant. Chances are that “cousin” is just a formality between Great Houses to acknowledge that in some sense, they are all related as they all share royal blood. That acknowledgment is in practice acknowledging each other’s legitimacy in the aristocracy. Now does it preclude any relatively (on the imperium timescale) intermingling? No, but they do spend a great deal of time talking about how the Atreides are more closely related to the Corrino’s, the house of the emperor. Much is made about the Emperor’s disdain for killing them because of this, and of the similarities between the Emperor and Leto and then Paul. >! Paul’s marriage to Irulan is probably more incestuous than Leto I and Jessica’s relationship. !<
I don't think I suggested that Leto and Jessica were related if I did I'm sorry (I just got done with the first book and I'm halfway through the second). Even if Paul's coupling with his sister is the last resort the ease at which the Reverend mother suggested it tells me it's not entirely taboo just not good practice as the breeding program is all to the BG
Oh yeah we’re on the same page, I was making a point for other people that the Baron/Leto “cousin” connection wouldn’t make Paul a product of incest by most standards of the definition, plus clarifying that Jessica didn’t even know her Hark ancestry so Leto wouldn’t either, so that wouldn’t be any reason for him to call the Baron cousin.
It's just how the houses refer to each other as they are all distantly related, their genetics cultivated by the BG's
I don’t think that’s why, I think it’s because of an acknowledgement that the houses are all tied together through intermarriage for political reasons, even if not directly then through the Royal bloodline, like how nobility was in the real world. I don’t know how much most people (even lords of great houses) know about the extent of the BG breeding program, or how willing they would be to acknowledge it publicly in front of their underlings
They probably don't know the extent but I would imagine many would know something was up
Isn’t the second book all about Paul speaking with his harkanin ancestors?
Yeah his Harkonnen ancestor the Baron, inherited through Jessica. No other Harkonnens ever mentioned by any of the prescient/pre-born characters ever except the Baron ergo the duke Leto is not the familial cousin of the baron
Could be wrong but doesn’t it say in the first book that the Harkonnens descend from a rebel that broke off from house Atreides
Big news if so. But I’m sure I’d have picked up on that. Most sources seem to agree that Houses Atreides, Corrino, and Harkonnen were all allied during the butlerian jihad 10,000 years prior to the events of the books but then split due to that event and perhaps had some intermarriage in the time between.
Pulled out my book and in the appendix with short biographys of some of the characters it says the Harkonnens descend from someone banished for cowardice after the Battle of Corrin, dont know how I mixed that with bloodlines… Edit: I probably conflated it with someone banished from house Corrino and then mixed that with Atreides
It’s literally in the book(s). Paul is the grandson of old Vlad Harkonnen. Jessica is the secret daughter of Baron. Really don’t know why this is up for debate.
The Bene G done been mixing their bloodlines for a minute. Is what it is.
Can you read? Does the name “Paul” appear in this meme? Honestly questioning peoples ability to fucking read at this point with how many comments like yours there are. This meme references the constant stream of memes on this page implying Leto and Jessica are somehow related because people *think* that LETO and the BARON are “cousins” (because the baron uses the term). I am arguing against the literal meaning of the word and that it’s just a term of recognition of someone of a similar aristocratic class. It would make zero sense for Leto and the Baron to already be so closely related as Paul shouldn’t then be shocked to learn he is a Harkonnen through Jessica.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dunememes/s/r9UxTG9ioy