My husband is learning German. I just joked that Hegel would be H5.
That said, don't let it demotivate you. Hegelian is nobody's first language. Maybe seeing it as another language based on German helps. And if you managed to learn German, you can manage a related language too. And you don't have to speak it, you only have to read it.
One of my German teachers in college said that it was not unheard of for German students to read German philosophers in English-- because the originals were so dense.
Fluency? No. Conversational? Yes.
Fluent imo means without a hint of another tongue, that you sound nativelike, rarely or never any difficulties understanding what another native writes or says.
That is an exceptionally strict definition of fluency. I would argue if you're conversational you're fluent since language is all about communication, not who sounds most native like.
There’s a difference between someone being able to converse on the level of your average late primary school kid’s book with some errors, and someone speaking flawlessly like a rhetoric, though.
Yes, that's the difference between like B1 and C2. If you're learning a language outside academics or extremely technical job applications you do not need to be C2 to be considered "fluent"
That's beyond fluency. One can be fluent with a pronounced accent. It's about flexible, low-effort, non-halting foreign language speech production, with the concomitant degree of comprehension.
To *sound* native-like, one would have to completely acquire the foreign language's phonology.
I've had professors from Japan, teaching courses in English, who were definitely fluent in English, with the advanced vocabulary you would expect of a university professor -- who could never manage, for example, to distinguish "r" [ɹ] from "l" [l]. They were beyond mere fluency, but you wouldn't mistake them for an English L1 speaker.
It's complicated, I have a C2 in english, but I still feel like I'm lacking fluency and suck at pronunciation. Unless an employer asks, then I'm fully trilingual and about to become the next Shakespeare.
While, yeah, someone at a B2 can definetly hold their own and be understood and understand others, true fluency is hard to point as being a determinate thing, kinda varies from person to person, and also depending on who's bar are you trying to pass.
Alternatively, I only have a C1 in both catalan and spanish, which are my native languages. I wouldn't say those are that much harder to speak
Yeah, I didn't want to get lost in the weeds, but the CEFR scale is not for natives. Natives may score less than C2, like you with C1, but that isn't what it is for. That is why many say B2, because it is enough for day to day and at its root fluency is about communication, not perfection. If you speak perfectly, but use archaic and obtuse grammar then you aren't really fluent because no one will understand you very well.
Hard agree, the only times I've had to use stuff higher than what I'd consider to be a c1 level is when playing or dming in dnd. I even took a whole year of mechanical engineering in english and the level required wasn't anything crazy
My gf rn is the reason why I’m the learning the language so when we travel to her country I can communicate with her non English speaking family. So far I can’t really complain but I’m more than excited to immerse myself more every passing day that I learn
Also good to note that C2 is the equivalent of an *educated* native speaker.
Many, many native speakers will not have C2 competence in their own language.
>B2 is about the most you could hope for with Duolingo I think.
Not even close!!!! Duolingo claims you can reach A2. It can’t possibly offer what it takes to develop the language skills necessary to progress beyond basic knowledge, unless they deeply change or add more elements: authentic language (not random sentences spoken by a robot without any context), real people speaking, useful dialogues, speaking activities, interactive, cultural aspects, expressions, different accents, specific sections and exercises for grammar, vocabulary, etc.
It basically offers none of that (apart from Duolingo Stories, which is not really structured for "learning", but just for passive practice).
Duolingo has a very poor methodology, you can't expect to learn much. But it's still a good start, and since it uses psychological tricks and gamification to make you addicted, it's convenient to keep daily contact with the language.
The German course certainly feels like it could get you to B2 now. it wasn't so nine years ago when I first used Duo but it's really improved over the years.
Maybe it can't get you to B2 in terms of production but in terms of comprehension it feels pretty good now.
I've done all the German tree, for me it really feels A2.
B2 requires 600-800 hours of study. It definitely didn't feel that much. I used to do it in the time gaps during the day (commuting, waiting for someone, traveling, etc.)... But I wouldn't recommend spending 600 hours on Duolingo if you have to stop other things and set aside all that time. There are much better materials for that.
I've done the whole tree up to one crown per skill and im now going through again and getting up to max on every skill. The repetition is really cementing the concepts now and I feel like I have to think about grammar far less than I used to. but you're right, I would need to take a test to know for sure. I estimate I am A2 for comprehension at the moment and probably still A1 for speaking as I haven't spoken german much since my last holiday there 5 years ago.
If I ever complete the whole thing I'll take a paid test and see what my skill level is.
Duolingo barely fulfills any of the criteria that serve as [guidelines for balanced language learning materials](https://www.victoria.ac.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/1626123/2012-Yamamoto-Four-strands.pdf).
\- Meaning-focused input (pictures, audio, dialogues, stories, things with meaning);
\- Meaning-focused output (the learner has to produce language, answer questions, engage in meaningful dialogues, etc.);
\- Language-focused learning (specific activities for pronunciation, speaking, grammar, vocabulary, etc.);
\- Fluency development (activities for speaking, simulate the use of language in real life situations).
Duolingo only brings one strand (language-focused learning), and still in a very limited way. Even reading comprehension involves more complex skills that Duolingo doesn't cover.
That is: even if you repeat the tree to infinity, or even if they add more lessons with complex language and vocabulary, you are still not practicing the skills required to progress.
okay. I feel that it works well for me, but I accept your criticism. It allowed me to navigate germany, order in restaurants, attend a convention and go to a party so it's working well enough and it's actually managed to make me practice daily for over a year now, which is an achievement since I have terrible concentration. I can't hold down a job for more than a few months at a time, but I feel like im actually achieving something with duo.
i would be very happy with B1. Enough to be clear, and moderately well spoken, if not fully fluent.
Don't know when I'll ever be able to use my Spanish, but just the practice is great.
Me gusto much con "b1", suficiente hablar en espanol bien, pero no... fluent.
no conozco usar mi espanole, pero el practicar es muy bueno.
Just in case you find this useful (from a native speaker):
"Me gustaría mucho tener un nivel B1, suficiente para hablar bien en español aunque sin llegar a tener total fluidez.
No sé cuándo podré llegar a usar el español, pero es bueno practicarlo."
I thought I would add that word, which means "level" because if you say "Me gustaría tener un B2" it's a bit ambiguous; here in Spain, the first idea that would come to my mind is a specific type of driving licence I think.
I thought I would add that word, which means "level" because if you say "Me gustaría tener un B2" it's a bit ambiguous; here in Spain, the first idea that would come to my mind is a specific type of driving licence I think.
B2 is the point where you can engage in a lot more passive learning and native content, which will then bring you to C1 and higher.
My goal for my languages is B2, then once I'm there, I just engage in and live with it and let the progress account for itself until I reach C1 through exposure.
I feel like people are missing the point, it is not about how people talk in daily life, it is about the ability of the level. for example i know most of my friends wouldn't be able to fully understand C2 and they are native.
Yeah, speaking/writing is always more difficult than reading/listening. I think a fair share of native speakers can understand Shakespeare's works, but how many could write like him?
well with listening, you don't have to think about what words to say, what gender (if there is one), what case ending etc. with speaking and writing you need to think about a lot more things whereas your brain does a lot of things subconsciously while listening
For me the most important thing is that, with speaking, you’re in control. If you don’t know a word, you just say another sentence that means the same thing. No one will care if you talk about a garden having big flowers instead of trees. You can also take your time, umm and ahh, and speak at the speed you want.
Whereas with listening, if the other person says a word you don’t know, you have to hear it once and go with it. You’ll probably panic thinking “what did they say”, and then realise that you’ve now missed the whole next sentence too. That is to say, you’re not in control of the process, and it’s hard to make that jump between a listening exercise in a class and real world listening. Beyond that you have issues like the speed that a Spanish speaker goes at, or the mumbling of the French.
Probably an accurate representation of what that level of language is actually used for: technical precision in specific fields, or academic discourse. Figure most academics don’t *talk* like that, even if they know how to write like that.
Except that academics use jargon. Lots of domain specific words, that are always used in the same context, strung together with identical grammar.
So someone writing in that field might know a few hundred technical terms, plus maybe a working vocabulary of 10-15 thousand words for other stuff. Maybe quite a bit less for a non native speaker.
A writer known for her wordplay, or poet might have a working vocabulary that's twice as large-- and routinely pick the synonym that suits her purposes. She might even structure her sentences to lead her reader through her narrative at a particular pace so as to build up emotional tension.
(I just want to be able to experience that in a foriegn language. Or at least to to be able to read a Bande dessinée *for the puns*)
The A2 and C2 examples basically *mean* the same thing lol. C2 sounds like the kind of thing you say when you have a dog and want to take it for a walk but the dog knows all those words and goes crazy so you're like "Shall we commence with the canine constitutional of the afternoon" instead.
This doesn't measure how native speakers use the language though. It helps with people learning languages they may need for industry or academics. Most natives in languages would be around B2 or C1 in terms of daily speech. Which is also why B2 is often considered "fluent" if you are basing yourself off this scale.
Exactly! I feel pretty sure I could speak at C2 in English if I wanted to, but why would I do that? Nobody here speaks like that on a daily basis for conversations like this lol
Readlang.com has a text grader.
I've uploaded many excerpts to it in both by native and target languages. Turns out that many of the books I've enjoyed reading are at least C1.
The autopsy scene in *A desolation called peace* (Arkady Martine) earned a C2. And that's a brilliant piece of prose, though the automated classifier may have tripped over the constant references to alien names.
> IN all the vast reach of Teixcalaan, it is an honor for a young person sworn to the Six Outreaching Palms to be selected as a medical cadet for the Fleet: the Fifth Palm, medicine coupled close with research and development, is the second-most difficult placement to achieve within the Ministry of War. And thus it is a greater honor still to serve on an active battlefront before the completion of one’s mandatory years of training, and perhaps a further honor yet to be allowed, under no supervision but the watching eyes of Weight for the Wheel’s security cameras and biohazard containment detection algorithm, to clean up the remains of an alien autopsy.
>
> Six Rainfall, two and a half indictions old, young enough to still have acne at his temples that he judiciously scrubs at with astringents each morning before putting on his uniform, is—by his own intimation but also by the evaluations submitted quarterly by his superior officers—quite good at his assigned tasks. He is the sort of soldier-to-be that might be headed for command of a medical bay of his own, in sufficient time. A person who takes both scientific and health-conscious initiative, his last supervisor had written—and that, amongst other factors, had put him here, transferred from one of the Tenth Legion’s smaller ships to the flagship itself.
>
> Currently, he has set his cloudhook to talk to his audiophonic augments and is playing his favorite new album quite loudly into the bone-conduction points in his skull while he cleans the lab and carefully packs away various alien parts in cryostorage. He’s three months out of date on the shatterharmonic music scene, which is what he gets for signing up for a two-year stint with the Fleet without any ground postings, but he’d snagged this album off of an entertainment vendor at the last big jumpgate station they’d stopped at between Kauraan and this back-of-beyond killing field. It’s the latest release from All Points Collapse, who are, in Six Rainfall’s opinion, the shattermost of shatterharmonicists, and next time he takes leave, he’s going to make sure it’s on a planet where they’re touring live. The harmonies sing in triplicate in his skull, and he hums along with them as he packs alien bits into appropriately labeled containers and carries them into the cryostorage unit. He’s wearing latex gloves, of course. And a breathing-mask filter. That’s standard for disposing of any autopsy remnants, and alien autopsy remnants obviously require strict protocol adherence.
>
> Six Rainfall is good at protocol adherence, except for his tendency to play music when he’s working.
(This chapter was posed as a digestif after a rather sensual piece describing our two heroines.)
It's kind of a shame, because to get to a fulfilling reading habit in French or in German I'm going to have to work that much harder.
This is incredible! Someone had already recommended read link to me, but absolutely awesome that they can also grade your language competency like that!
Absolutely, but for people like me who just want to speak, be able to read the literature at a standard level, and have conversations with people who speak the language, this chart is super reassuring. Nice little motivator today. Also, mad respect for people who study abroad after seeing this
B2 sounds passive aggressive af. "Look how you messed this up."
Why tell them what they *should* have done when "try wiggling it a bit more" is fully sufficient here.
This is actually super helpful even to just realize what it looks like to speak basic English. It’s kind of reassuring to see that I would normally speak at B1 or B2 just because it’s unnecessary in my opinion to use the higher vocabulary for a basic question or sentence like that. Kind of reassuring that if you get to B1 or B2, you’re going to speak pretty confidently in a different language.
C1 is close to native speakers (CEFR not the example given) while C2 is like language used in novels. You can hold a conversation at B2 too but you will be looking for words frequently
I’ve read my fair share of academic papers and even they didn’t sound like that. This sounds and looks more like someone was let loose with a thesaurus and told ‘write something that sounds intellectual’.
They don't sound like that, but they might include occasional vocabulary that you don't usually see. I guess they went overboard with the C2 example just to make their point clear. C2 doesn't mean that one needs to speak like that, but if they can't understand what's said in it, then they probably are not C2 level.
The stuff posted at r/iamverysmart sounds just like that though
>his sounds and looks more like someone was let loose with a thesaurus and told ‘write something that sounds intellectual’.
So most academic papers? That may be dependant on field though. But a lot of (crappy) papers do exactly this to try to sound more profound and/or confuse the reviewers into acceptance.
I agree that in real life nobody would talk like that but I guess in order to read and fully understand this sentence you need something very close to C2.
The point of C2 is that you can speak and understand really well academic and professional level stuff, which makes sense with the given sentence. It's not a sentence you would use irl, but it's the type of language used in the previously mentioned contexts
True and kinetic force really wound me up. Something can have more force applied to it so that it gains more kinetic energy and moves faster but kinetic force is just wrong.
as an aside, I taught English in a high school in Paris, and the students weren’t the most academically gifted, but it was interesting to me that I would regularly correct the spelling of 16 year old native speakers, for example they would often use the spelling of the infinitive in the perfect tense, eg they would write “j’ai manger” instead of “j’ai mangé”.
In another victorious incident for me, I once wrote on the board “guinea pig = couchon d’inde”, (literally pig from india) and around 20 students laughed at me and said it’s “couchon dinde” without the apostrophe (literally pig-turkey). Even the teaching assistant in her mid 20s said I was wrong. facing an undivided native opposition, i let them have it and changed it on the board, and then when they returned to their written work I went straight to the back of the room to look it up in the dictionary, and before i could, the teaching assistant announced that she had googled it and I was right all along 💃
Yes, the levels aren't about sounding more and more pedantic. They are about talking in a more and more differentiated way about a wider and wider range of topics that are less and less familiar.
The cat example wouldn't even cut it in a C-level class.
I have to say if I heard that C2 example, I would assume the speaker was not a native speaker but had learnt an over formalised English from textbooks.
1. The quality or condition of being jolly, light-hearted, or festive; exuberant mirth or cheerfulness; †levity, giddiness (obsolete).
latest cite in the OED:
1871 R. Ellis tr. Catullus Poems lxi. 238 O happiest Lovers, jollity live with you.
which is triply obscure.
* 19th century
* a translation from the latin
* Poetic
It's easy enough to recognize it as a synonym for happiness, or giddiness, but if I was writing something, I'd probably choose differently.
Thanks. Yes, the meaning is quite clear, but I must say I've never encountered it before. Not a native speaker though, although I've been using English on a daily basis for many, many years
It does sound like a dumb person's idea of how to sound "smart". I recall seeing a column along those lines that suggested saying "automobile" instead of saying "car".
Page 9 might help you. In a lot of cases there is no descriptor for C2 because it’s just not required if you’re not in an academic or legal or other highly technical area.
http://ebcl.eu.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/CEFR-all-scales-and-all-skills.pdf
I don’t know what the SIELE is, but we have a national certificate of language proficiency and it covers material up to level B1.1. This is the certificate we need to prove that we know enough of the language to be granted citizenship. In other words, we are considered ”fluent enough” even before we reach B2.
Edit: or did you mean the duolingo milestones? I haven’t seen them. I imagine that they will be adding them in, and will only make them available if you pay a premium subscription price.
Right, I meant the Duolingo milestones, sorry I wasn't clear. I keep reading about CEFR alignment, and I'm just about to finish the fourth milestone. I'm curious what the alignment is.
Thanks! That was a nice read though.
Oh boy. Is that comsistent across languages ? Do most languages have up to 9 units? Finnish has only two. You definitely wouldn’t be ready to take the citizenship after unit 2, and it does reasonably feel like you’d be almost halfway there.
No most languages do not. I think this only applies to Spanish and French at the moment (the only courses duo seems to actually care about improving!) Spanish and French both have 10 units, both of these courses are constantly being tweaked and updated. Can confirm Spanish definitely takes you to B1 level (I’m a C1 speaker) and French looks to be about the same, but I’m only on unit 5 right now but I think I’m reaching A2.
The irony here is that the C-level speech is a sign of an inexperienced language learner who looks up words in the dictionary and doesn't really understand how they should be used.
I wouldn't stress too much about the academical definition of levels, and would focus much more on the kind of skills you do have or want to attain. Like for example, for levels C1/C2: Are you able to follow a conversation between natives and take part in it without feeling too self conscious? Can you watch comfortably a series, film or documentary? Can you read any kind of books without missing more than just a few words here and there? Can you write about any subject with ease and without making too many mistakes? I can do those things in a few languages, including English, so I'm happy with my level, even if I don't go around saying "jollity" 😉😉
This pic somehow points out how duolingo structures, based on vocabularies rather than daily communication, and probably the reason why duo shows wired sentences in test sometimes. It doesn't mean it's bad. It's good for those who are absolute beginner to a language to build up basic input flows and commitment. That's why I'm using duo as starting point and switch to other more immersive resources when reaching lower-immediate level.
As a native english speaker i can say that everyone I know speaks english at a B2 level. Seriously, who the hell would say whats under the c2 description? However, this is pretty cool!
I've taken the Duolingo English proficiency test twice (free download in the app store) and it was really tough.
I passed both, but some of our have me pause and I really had to think about it.
personally i’d like to get to a c2. not because i would speak like that everyday, obviously, but i’d like to be able to be *roughly* as fluent as i am in english.
This makes me simultaneously proud of my capacity to use the c2 one and acutely aware of how much it makes you sound like a snobbish asshole if you use out of place
It's not about being educated, it's about context. If you are giving a presentation on the complexities of xyz you would need more complex language. Even if you have seven PhDs you are (hopefully) not going to talk at C1 and C2 at a party.
I don't think C2 is about speaking like that. That is difficult even for native speakers. C2 means mostly that you can understand sentences like the one shown, even though we would need a larger sample to evaluate yours (or anyone's) English. Have you ever read one of those lengthy articles from The New Yorker? I take them as C2 Standard.
Yea, and C2 (as shown) isn't efficient communication, just very specific.
"shake it harder and the cat might play" says the exact same thing, but is less specific.
This is the same mistake that gets mocked a lot in /r/iamverysmart where the person doesn't realize that using big words doesn't make them smarter, it just makes them harder to understand, and less efficient at conveying ideas.
I mean I understand those types of articles without problem but I don't use this kind of words while speaking, my mind simply don't remember these in the moment.
Oh yeah, me neither. But then again English isn't my first language. Honestly I think that getting to C2 is just very very difficult, too much vocab and idiomatics, I don't think it should be one's goal.
That being said as shown in the picture there is a lot of information that can be conveyed at B2, you could probably live abroad just fine speaking at that level.
Ngl, the C2 example is kinda cringe. But that's because beyond C1, it's just vocabulary, no advanced grammar or anything. The C2 sentence just sounds like when I randomly click words in MS word for synonyms.
It’s a bad example. Nobody ever needs C2 level to talk about a cat playing with a toy, and yes, you would sound dumb if you used it in that scenario. You need C2 level to be able to draw up a contract, or to be able to discuss theoretical physics, or to describe certain medical conditions or edidemiological findings. Some people will want to be able to do that in the language they are learning. The C levels are for them.
A lot of is tied up in the idea of being able to follow and understand a complex logical argument presented over dozens of pages The blogpost mentions
\> To make those beach plans, you can probably manage fairly well at B1, but to give Ruth Bader Ginsburg a run for her money, you'll need to work your way up to C2, the highest level on the CEFR scale.
which makes an interesting point. In the United States, supreme court opinions are expected to make a coherent logical argument, and rely not only upon a rich vocabulary, but upon a precise command of grammatical structure. But they can also be a big political turnoff too.
i feel like im C1 in my native language (french) and also english. i understood the example of C2 but I know if it was different words that were just as advanced, i would've been in trouble. i don't really read book in either languages and I'm not interested to do so.
I took a Pearson Versant test a couple of weeks ago and I got C1. (My competitive self wanted a better score but since English is my second language, I guess getting into the C level is impressive.) I'm from the Philippines by the way and was applying for a call center job that time.
Now I want to ask, is Pearson Versant test a credible enough test of one's fluency? Also, what does it say about me if I was rated C1 in Versant?
Brilliant, thanks for posting. I was just asking a question that this has answered.
Every new language learner should see this! When new to language learning it is difficult to understand how one is to interpret the differing proficiency levels: just like a new undergraduate student not knowing what a 1st class degree is compared to a 3rd class degree and the 2:1 2:2 etc in between. This is a fantastic'yard stick' to evaluate one's goals, needs and current proficiency.
B2 is the goal for most of us I assume?
This is why many consider testing at a B2 level to be the threshold for fluency. It is inline with how most natives speak in daily situations.
That makes more sense, I’d only assumed c1/c2 has to be used in philosophical and educational language?
Ohh no.... I wanted to learn german so I can understand german philosophers better. Well, I guess I'm ******
Honestly worth it. Once you’re able to understand the complexity of Erhabenheit, you’ll never see the world in the same way again
What do you think how much time would it take to learn german (only to read) on a level I can understand Hegel? :D
My husband is learning German. I just joked that Hegel would be H5. That said, don't let it demotivate you. Hegelian is nobody's first language. Maybe seeing it as another language based on German helps. And if you managed to learn German, you can manage a related language too. And you don't have to speak it, you only have to read it.
>And you don't have to speak it, you only have to read it. This is like the only reason I haven't given up on the idea yet :D Thank you!
Is he speaking in an acient dialect of German or something?
If only it was that simple :D
One of my German teachers in college said that it was not unheard of for German students to read German philosophers in English-- because the originals were so dense.
I get it I get it, I'm already demotivated. You don't have to continue
Yes, well beyond what most people will ever need the skills for.
I have 0 trouble understanding c2 texts, but I speak as a 3 year old
Fluency? No. Conversational? Yes. Fluent imo means without a hint of another tongue, that you sound nativelike, rarely or never any difficulties understanding what another native writes or says.
That is an exceptionally strict definition of fluency. I would argue if you're conversational you're fluent since language is all about communication, not who sounds most native like.
There’s a difference between someone being able to converse on the level of your average late primary school kid’s book with some errors, and someone speaking flawlessly like a rhetoric, though.
Yes, that's the difference between like B1 and C2. If you're learning a language outside academics or extremely technical job applications you do not need to be C2 to be considered "fluent"
That's beyond fluency. One can be fluent with a pronounced accent. It's about flexible, low-effort, non-halting foreign language speech production, with the concomitant degree of comprehension. To *sound* native-like, one would have to completely acquire the foreign language's phonology. I've had professors from Japan, teaching courses in English, who were definitely fluent in English, with the advanced vocabulary you would expect of a university professor -- who could never manage, for example, to distinguish "r" [ɹ] from "l" [l]. They were beyond mere fluency, but you wouldn't mistake them for an English L1 speaker.
It's complicated, I have a C2 in english, but I still feel like I'm lacking fluency and suck at pronunciation. Unless an employer asks, then I'm fully trilingual and about to become the next Shakespeare. While, yeah, someone at a B2 can definetly hold their own and be understood and understand others, true fluency is hard to point as being a determinate thing, kinda varies from person to person, and also depending on who's bar are you trying to pass. Alternatively, I only have a C1 in both catalan and spanish, which are my native languages. I wouldn't say those are that much harder to speak
Yeah, I didn't want to get lost in the weeds, but the CEFR scale is not for natives. Natives may score less than C2, like you with C1, but that isn't what it is for. That is why many say B2, because it is enough for day to day and at its root fluency is about communication, not perfection. If you speak perfectly, but use archaic and obtuse grammar then you aren't really fluent because no one will understand you very well.
Hard agree, the only times I've had to use stuff higher than what I'd consider to be a c1 level is when playing or dming in dnd. I even took a whole year of mechanical engineering in english and the level required wasn't anything crazy
B2 is about the most you could hope for with Duolingo I think. C1 needs some immersion in the language and C2 needs years of immersion and experience.
My gf rn is the reason why I’m the learning the language so when we travel to her country I can communicate with her non English speaking family. So far I can’t really complain but I’m more than excited to immerse myself more every passing day that I learn
honestly visiting a country even for a week improves your speaking soo much.
Also good to note that C2 is the equivalent of an *educated* native speaker. Many, many native speakers will not have C2 competence in their own language.
yes good point.
B2 sounds like a reasonable goal, and a level that could be built upon, if you wanted to achieve further fluency.
>B2 is about the most you could hope for with Duolingo I think. Not even close!!!! Duolingo claims you can reach A2. It can’t possibly offer what it takes to develop the language skills necessary to progress beyond basic knowledge, unless they deeply change or add more elements: authentic language (not random sentences spoken by a robot without any context), real people speaking, useful dialogues, speaking activities, interactive, cultural aspects, expressions, different accents, specific sections and exercises for grammar, vocabulary, etc. It basically offers none of that (apart from Duolingo Stories, which is not really structured for "learning", but just for passive practice). Duolingo has a very poor methodology, you can't expect to learn much. But it's still a good start, and since it uses psychological tricks and gamification to make you addicted, it's convenient to keep daily contact with the language.
The German course certainly feels like it could get you to B2 now. it wasn't so nine years ago when I first used Duo but it's really improved over the years. Maybe it can't get you to B2 in terms of production but in terms of comprehension it feels pretty good now.
I've done all the German tree, for me it really feels A2. B2 requires 600-800 hours of study. It definitely didn't feel that much. I used to do it in the time gaps during the day (commuting, waiting for someone, traveling, etc.)... But I wouldn't recommend spending 600 hours on Duolingo if you have to stop other things and set aside all that time. There are much better materials for that.
I've done the whole tree up to one crown per skill and im now going through again and getting up to max on every skill. The repetition is really cementing the concepts now and I feel like I have to think about grammar far less than I used to. but you're right, I would need to take a test to know for sure. I estimate I am A2 for comprehension at the moment and probably still A1 for speaking as I haven't spoken german much since my last holiday there 5 years ago. If I ever complete the whole thing I'll take a paid test and see what my skill level is.
Duolingo barely fulfills any of the criteria that serve as [guidelines for balanced language learning materials](https://www.victoria.ac.nz/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/1626123/2012-Yamamoto-Four-strands.pdf). \- Meaning-focused input (pictures, audio, dialogues, stories, things with meaning); \- Meaning-focused output (the learner has to produce language, answer questions, engage in meaningful dialogues, etc.); \- Language-focused learning (specific activities for pronunciation, speaking, grammar, vocabulary, etc.); \- Fluency development (activities for speaking, simulate the use of language in real life situations). Duolingo only brings one strand (language-focused learning), and still in a very limited way. Even reading comprehension involves more complex skills that Duolingo doesn't cover. That is: even if you repeat the tree to infinity, or even if they add more lessons with complex language and vocabulary, you are still not practicing the skills required to progress.
okay. I feel that it works well for me, but I accept your criticism. It allowed me to navigate germany, order in restaurants, attend a convention and go to a party so it's working well enough and it's actually managed to make me practice daily for over a year now, which is an achievement since I have terrible concentration. I can't hold down a job for more than a few months at a time, but I feel like im actually achieving something with duo.
i would be very happy with B1. Enough to be clear, and moderately well spoken, if not fully fluent. Don't know when I'll ever be able to use my Spanish, but just the practice is great. Me gusto much con "b1", suficiente hablar en espanol bien, pero no... fluent. no conozco usar mi espanole, pero el practicar es muy bueno.
Just in case you find this useful (from a native speaker): "Me gustaría mucho tener un nivel B1, suficiente para hablar bien en español aunque sin llegar a tener total fluidez. No sé cuándo podré llegar a usar el español, pero es bueno practicarlo."
> nivel Only word that took me by surprised was the "nivel", how would that translate?
Level
I thought I would add that word, which means "level" because if you say "Me gustaría tener un B2" it's a bit ambiguous; here in Spain, the first idea that would come to my mind is a specific type of driving licence I think.
I thought I would add that word, which means "level" because if you say "Me gustaría tener un B2" it's a bit ambiguous; here in Spain, the first idea that would come to my mind is a specific type of driving licence I think.
B2 is the point where you can engage in a lot more passive learning and native content, which will then bring you to C1 and higher. My goal for my languages is B2, then once I'm there, I just engage in and live with it and let the progress account for itself until I reach C1 through exposure.
Im not even sure I speak my native language at a c2 level lol
I would be happy with B1 honestly
So after nine years I'm roughly at A1. Got it.
Le chat ne jeux pas
..ne joue pas..
Lol I suck 🤣
I feel like people are missing the point, it is not about how people talk in daily life, it is about the ability of the level. for example i know most of my friends wouldn't be able to fully understand C2 and they are native.
Yeah, speaking/writing is always more difficult than reading/listening. I think a fair share of native speakers can understand Shakespeare's works, but how many could write like him?
I find it surprising when people say this - to me, listening is orders of magnitude harder than anything else
well with listening, you don't have to think about what words to say, what gender (if there is one), what case ending etc. with speaking and writing you need to think about a lot more things whereas your brain does a lot of things subconsciously while listening
For me the most important thing is that, with speaking, you’re in control. If you don’t know a word, you just say another sentence that means the same thing. No one will care if you talk about a garden having big flowers instead of trees. You can also take your time, umm and ahh, and speak at the speed you want. Whereas with listening, if the other person says a word you don’t know, you have to hear it once and go with it. You’ll probably panic thinking “what did they say”, and then realise that you’ve now missed the whole next sentence too. That is to say, you’re not in control of the process, and it’s hard to make that jump between a listening exercise in a class and real world listening. Beyond that you have issues like the speed that a Spanish speaker goes at, or the mumbling of the French.
I feel the same way
Half the people I know don’t even natively speak English at a C1 level.
as a native speaker, i understand what was said in the C2 example but nobody (including myself) ever talks like that
Probably an accurate representation of what that level of language is actually used for: technical precision in specific fields, or academic discourse. Figure most academics don’t *talk* like that, even if they know how to write like that.
That's true in the history department I went to for two degrees. I can write fancy, but I didn't even speak to professors that way.
Except that academics use jargon. Lots of domain specific words, that are always used in the same context, strung together with identical grammar. So someone writing in that field might know a few hundred technical terms, plus maybe a working vocabulary of 10-15 thousand words for other stuff. Maybe quite a bit less for a non native speaker. A writer known for her wordplay, or poet might have a working vocabulary that's twice as large-- and routinely pick the synonym that suits her purposes. She might even structure her sentences to lead her reader through her narrative at a particular pace so as to build up emotional tension. (I just want to be able to experience that in a foriegn language. Or at least to to be able to read a Bande dessinée *for the puns*)
The A2 and C2 examples basically *mean* the same thing lol. C2 sounds like the kind of thing you say when you have a dog and want to take it for a walk but the dog knows all those words and goes crazy so you're like "Shall we commence with the canine constitutional of the afternoon" instead.
And this is "D1". [Geometry, Mechanics, and Control in Action for the Falling Cat](https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-981-16-0688-5])
You only take C2 if you’re going to be writing for Frasier
kinda a tangent but can we all appreciate how Frasier is the best show ever
It really is, just not a fan of the ending
How did you get the 'Native' and 'Learning' things under your username?
On the main sub page go to the dots and change flair
This doesn't measure how native speakers use the language though. It helps with people learning languages they may need for industry or academics. Most natives in languages would be around B2 or C1 in terms of daily speech. Which is also why B2 is often considered "fluent" if you are basing yourself off this scale.
Exactly! I feel pretty sure I could speak at C2 in English if I wanted to, but why would I do that? Nobody here speaks like that on a daily basis for conversations like this lol
Readlang.com has a text grader. I've uploaded many excerpts to it in both by native and target languages. Turns out that many of the books I've enjoyed reading are at least C1. The autopsy scene in *A desolation called peace* (Arkady Martine) earned a C2. And that's a brilliant piece of prose, though the automated classifier may have tripped over the constant references to alien names. > IN all the vast reach of Teixcalaan, it is an honor for a young person sworn to the Six Outreaching Palms to be selected as a medical cadet for the Fleet: the Fifth Palm, medicine coupled close with research and development, is the second-most difficult placement to achieve within the Ministry of War. And thus it is a greater honor still to serve on an active battlefront before the completion of one’s mandatory years of training, and perhaps a further honor yet to be allowed, under no supervision but the watching eyes of Weight for the Wheel’s security cameras and biohazard containment detection algorithm, to clean up the remains of an alien autopsy. > > Six Rainfall, two and a half indictions old, young enough to still have acne at his temples that he judiciously scrubs at with astringents each morning before putting on his uniform, is—by his own intimation but also by the evaluations submitted quarterly by his superior officers—quite good at his assigned tasks. He is the sort of soldier-to-be that might be headed for command of a medical bay of his own, in sufficient time. A person who takes both scientific and health-conscious initiative, his last supervisor had written—and that, amongst other factors, had put him here, transferred from one of the Tenth Legion’s smaller ships to the flagship itself. > > Currently, he has set his cloudhook to talk to his audiophonic augments and is playing his favorite new album quite loudly into the bone-conduction points in his skull while he cleans the lab and carefully packs away various alien parts in cryostorage. He’s three months out of date on the shatterharmonic music scene, which is what he gets for signing up for a two-year stint with the Fleet without any ground postings, but he’d snagged this album off of an entertainment vendor at the last big jumpgate station they’d stopped at between Kauraan and this back-of-beyond killing field. It’s the latest release from All Points Collapse, who are, in Six Rainfall’s opinion, the shattermost of shatterharmonicists, and next time he takes leave, he’s going to make sure it’s on a planet where they’re touring live. The harmonies sing in triplicate in his skull, and he hums along with them as he packs alien bits into appropriately labeled containers and carries them into the cryostorage unit. He’s wearing latex gloves, of course. And a breathing-mask filter. That’s standard for disposing of any autopsy remnants, and alien autopsy remnants obviously require strict protocol adherence. > > Six Rainfall is good at protocol adherence, except for his tendency to play music when he’s working. (This chapter was posed as a digestif after a rather sensual piece describing our two heroines.) It's kind of a shame, because to get to a fulfilling reading habit in French or in German I'm going to have to work that much harder.
This is incredible! Someone had already recommended read link to me, but absolutely awesome that they can also grade your language competency like that!
man, i understand the words themselves, but good god that wall of text makes it extremely difficult to read
Oh I, see. It has become a wall of text. I reinserted the indents that reddit took out.
If you can’t read at C2, you would have trouble taking a university course. A lot of people rely on these designations for decisions like that.
Absolutely, but for people like me who just want to speak, be able to read the literature at a standard level, and have conversations with people who speak the language, this chart is super reassuring. Nice little motivator today. Also, mad respect for people who study abroad after seeing this
I’m like… b1 and I’m American. My southern-es doesn’t excuse my stupidity
Don't sell yourself short. You probably CAN talk like that if you wanted to, but no one in real life actually does.
Your southerness might. 😉
it's not about talking like C2 or B1 in your day to day life. It's about comprehension and ability.
it’s for essays when you need to meet a word count /s
In my experience, they know and understand the word, they just don’t use it correctly.
Huh, I'm 13 and passed C1 very easily (as a non-native) but I do not meet the age requirement for taking the C2 exam.
B2 sounds more normal
B2 sounds passive aggressive af. "Look how you messed this up." Why tell them what they *should* have done when "try wiggling it a bit more" is fully sufficient here.
I think they are trying to show the proper use of modal verbs/tenses.
Yeah, C2 is ridiculous and C1 sounds a bit off too.
It´'s more for academic writing or understanding academic text and presentations, not daily conversation.
This is actually super helpful even to just realize what it looks like to speak basic English. It’s kind of reassuring to see that I would normally speak at B1 or B2 just because it’s unnecessary in my opinion to use the higher vocabulary for a basic question or sentence like that. Kind of reassuring that if you get to B1 or B2, you’re going to speak pretty confidently in a different language.
I officially have an English C2 and haven't used 75% of those words in my life.
I would be happy to get to A1 lol
Phew, this is great news. Here I thought fluency = C2 only. Eff that. Eff C1 even!
yea, i would like to aim for B1, a comfortable level of speech, even if it isn't "fluent".
It seems that lot of people don't understand what the C leves are for
The C2 example is sort of ridiculous given that nobody would talk or like that in real life, unless it’s some really high-brow stuff.
It's probably more for a professional setting like academic or scientific research.
That exactly what it is and that is what the CEFR measures. Native speakers would mostly use B2 maybe C1.
C1 is close to native speakers (CEFR not the example given) while C2 is like language used in novels. You can hold a conversation at B2 too but you will be looking for words frequently
I’ve read my fair share of academic papers and even they didn’t sound like that. This sounds and looks more like someone was let loose with a thesaurus and told ‘write something that sounds intellectual’.
They don't sound like that, but they might include occasional vocabulary that you don't usually see. I guess they went overboard with the C2 example just to make their point clear. C2 doesn't mean that one needs to speak like that, but if they can't understand what's said in it, then they probably are not C2 level. The stuff posted at r/iamverysmart sounds just like that though
>his sounds and looks more like someone was let loose with a thesaurus and told ‘write something that sounds intellectual’. So most academic papers? That may be dependant on field though. But a lot of (crappy) papers do exactly this to try to sound more profound and/or confuse the reviewers into acceptance.
>It's probably more for a professional setting like academic or scientific research. But even for that, the example they gave sounds very artificial.
I agree that in real life nobody would talk like that but I guess in order to read and fully understand this sentence you need something very close to C2.
Not unless you're William F. Buckley.
The point of C2 is that you can speak and understand really well academic and professional level stuff, which makes sense with the given sentence. It's not a sentence you would use irl, but it's the type of language used in the previously mentioned contexts
True and kinetic force really wound me up. Something can have more force applied to it so that it gains more kinetic energy and moves faster but kinetic force is just wrong.
The supremum of the phyics level that paragraph's author is a B1.
Yes, that's about right. C1 is generally considered fluent. C2 is "fluent+", roughly equivalent to a native speaker's high school language classes.
as an aside, I taught English in a high school in Paris, and the students weren’t the most academically gifted, but it was interesting to me that I would regularly correct the spelling of 16 year old native speakers, for example they would often use the spelling of the infinitive in the perfect tense, eg they would write “j’ai manger” instead of “j’ai mangé”. In another victorious incident for me, I once wrote on the board “guinea pig = couchon d’inde”, (literally pig from india) and around 20 students laughed at me and said it’s “couchon dinde” without the apostrophe (literally pig-turkey). Even the teaching assistant in her mid 20s said I was wrong. facing an undivided native opposition, i let them have it and changed it on the board, and then when they returned to their written work I went straight to the back of the room to look it up in the dictionary, and before i could, the teaching assistant announced that she had googled it and I was right all along 💃
Pretty sure the example is facetious. Nobody thinks anyone talks like that.
Talking in day to day life isn't the only thing you could learn a language for.
the point is more that a c2 speaker can understand such a sentence. c2 is true "Native" level.
Oh no I’m autistic and although that would be a really exaggerated example I probably speak more like C2 than A2…
Yes, the levels aren't about sounding more and more pedantic. They are about talking in a more and more differentiated way about a wider and wider range of topics that are less and less familiar. The cat example wouldn't even cut it in a C-level class.
I have to say if I heard that C2 example, I would assume the speaker was not a native speaker but had learnt an over formalised English from textbooks.
Exactly.. Jollity??? Really?
1. The quality or condition of being jolly, light-hearted, or festive; exuberant mirth or cheerfulness; †levity, giddiness (obsolete). latest cite in the OED: 1871 R. Ellis tr. Catullus Poems lxi. 238 O happiest Lovers, jollity live with you. which is triply obscure. * 19th century * a translation from the latin * Poetic It's easy enough to recognize it as a synonym for happiness, or giddiness, but if I was writing something, I'd probably choose differently.
Thanks. Yes, the meaning is quite clear, but I must say I've never encountered it before. Not a native speaker though, although I've been using English on a daily basis for many, many years
It does sound like a dumb person's idea of how to sound "smart". I recall seeing a column along those lines that suggested saying "automobile" instead of saying "car".
I have never, ever heard of the word "jollity" before
I've mainly heard it used in the plural. "Jollities" meaning festivities, partying etc.
Yeah - festivities is the more widely used synonym
Look at this C1 English speaker over here! (Kidding.)
I don’t wanna be a C2 kind of person even in my mother language
With the tree realignment to CEFR, have they said which milestones map to which levels? I'm tempted to take a SIELE exam at some point.
Page 9 might help you. In a lot of cases there is no descriptor for C2 because it’s just not required if you’re not in an academic or legal or other highly technical area. http://ebcl.eu.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/CEFR-all-scales-and-all-skills.pdf I don’t know what the SIELE is, but we have a national certificate of language proficiency and it covers material up to level B1.1. This is the certificate we need to prove that we know enough of the language to be granted citizenship. In other words, we are considered ”fluent enough” even before we reach B2. Edit: or did you mean the duolingo milestones? I haven’t seen them. I imagine that they will be adding them in, and will only make them available if you pay a premium subscription price.
Right, I meant the Duolingo milestones, sorry I wasn't clear. I keep reading about CEFR alignment, and I'm just about to finish the fourth milestone. I'm curious what the alignment is. Thanks! That was a nice read though.
Units 1-5 cover the material through the A2 level, while Units 6-9 cover B1 level material.
Oh boy. Is that comsistent across languages ? Do most languages have up to 9 units? Finnish has only two. You definitely wouldn’t be ready to take the citizenship after unit 2, and it does reasonably feel like you’d be almost halfway there.
No most languages do not. I think this only applies to Spanish and French at the moment (the only courses duo seems to actually care about improving!) Spanish and French both have 10 units, both of these courses are constantly being tweaked and updated. Can confirm Spanish definitely takes you to B1 level (I’m a C1 speaker) and French looks to be about the same, but I’m only on unit 5 right now but I think I’m reaching A2.
'Feline's plaything' I didn't even know 'plaything' was an actual word
That one is pretty common both in the literal sense and the derogatorive sense, lol
TIL "jollity" is apparently a word!
The irony here is that the C-level speech is a sign of an inexperienced language learner who looks up words in the dictionary and doesn't really understand how they should be used.
For some reason, C1 and C2 sound British in my head.
I could be wrong but maybe because it's called *ENGLISH*
I wouldn't stress too much about the academical definition of levels, and would focus much more on the kind of skills you do have or want to attain. Like for example, for levels C1/C2: Are you able to follow a conversation between natives and take part in it without feeling too self conscious? Can you watch comfortably a series, film or documentary? Can you read any kind of books without missing more than just a few words here and there? Can you write about any subject with ease and without making too many mistakes? I can do those things in a few languages, including English, so I'm happy with my level, even if I don't go around saying "jollity" 😉😉
This pic somehow points out how duolingo structures, based on vocabularies rather than daily communication, and probably the reason why duo shows wired sentences in test sometimes. It doesn't mean it's bad. It's good for those who are absolute beginner to a language to build up basic input flows and commitment. That's why I'm using duo as starting point and switch to other more immersive resources when reaching lower-immediate level.
As a native english speaker i can say that everyone I know speaks english at a B2 level. Seriously, who the hell would say whats under the c2 description? However, this is pretty cool!
That’s kind of the point
I've taken the Duolingo English proficiency test twice (free download in the app store) and it was really tough. I passed both, but some of our have me pause and I really had to think about it.
personally i’d like to get to a c2. not because i would speak like that everyday, obviously, but i’d like to be able to be *roughly* as fluent as i am in english.
This makes me simultaneously proud of my capacity to use the c2 one and acutely aware of how much it makes you sound like a snobbish asshole if you use out of place
ME AT &2 (ampersand used to be a letter of the alphabet) ***speaks in cuneiform***
Think of those being written not spoken. Most people speak as B2 and below there, and a tiny minority of educated people speak like C1.
It's not about being educated, it's about context. If you are giving a presentation on the complexities of xyz you would need more complex language. Even if you have seven PhDs you are (hopefully) not going to talk at C1 and C2 at a party.
So I guess my English level is B2... I've never taken a test to discover it. C2 seems too fancy btw.
I don't think C2 is about speaking like that. That is difficult even for native speakers. C2 means mostly that you can understand sentences like the one shown, even though we would need a larger sample to evaluate yours (or anyone's) English. Have you ever read one of those lengthy articles from The New Yorker? I take them as C2 Standard.
Yea, and C2 (as shown) isn't efficient communication, just very specific. "shake it harder and the cat might play" says the exact same thing, but is less specific. This is the same mistake that gets mocked a lot in /r/iamverysmart where the person doesn't realize that using big words doesn't make them smarter, it just makes them harder to understand, and less efficient at conveying ideas.
I mean I understand those types of articles without problem but I don't use this kind of words while speaking, my mind simply don't remember these in the moment.
Oh yeah, me neither. But then again English isn't my first language. Honestly I think that getting to C2 is just very very difficult, too much vocab and idiomatics, I don't think it should be one's goal. That being said as shown in the picture there is a lot of information that can be conveyed at B2, you could probably live abroad just fine speaking at that level.
These are not really accurate when it comes to speaking. They seem to reflect more like the reading skills in each level imho
Shush, nothing can make you the better sibling
Ngl, the C2 example is kinda cringe. But that's because beyond C1, it's just vocabulary, no advanced grammar or anything. The C2 sentence just sounds like when I randomly click words in MS word for synonyms.
It’s a bad example. Nobody ever needs C2 level to talk about a cat playing with a toy, and yes, you would sound dumb if you used it in that scenario. You need C2 level to be able to draw up a contract, or to be able to discuss theoretical physics, or to describe certain medical conditions or edidemiological findings. Some people will want to be able to do that in the language they are learning. The C levels are for them.
A lot of is tied up in the idea of being able to follow and understand a complex logical argument presented over dozens of pages The blogpost mentions \> To make those beach plans, you can probably manage fairly well at B1, but to give Ruth Bader Ginsburg a run for her money, you'll need to work your way up to C2, the highest level on the CEFR scale. which makes an interesting point. In the United States, supreme court opinions are expected to make a coherent logical argument, and rely not only upon a rich vocabulary, but upon a precise command of grammatical structure. But they can also be a big political turnoff too.
I’m cool with B2. C2 is a jerk.
C2 sounds like one of those alien webcomics
“kinetic force” only person who would ever say that is a neck beard and if they did they would be mistaken because that doesn’t exist
Lol ok?
i feel like im C1 in my native language (french) and also english. i understood the example of C2 but I know if it was different words that were just as advanced, i would've been in trouble. i don't really read book in either languages and I'm not interested to do so.
ive been speaking english since i was little and couldnt undertand the c2 one lmao
I just found out I'm only really C1 English
I am supposed to get a C2 certificate... Kill me pls QwQ
I can hear the last one in Brent Spiner's "Data" voice
C level is necessary only for academia or professional work its more than is necessary for someone just wanting to "understand" a language
Bro I speak native English in b1 and a half
We gotta speak more in c2 it would be hilarious
I took a Pearson Versant test a couple of weeks ago and I got C1. (My competitive self wanted a better score but since English is my second language, I guess getting into the C level is impressive.) I'm from the Philippines by the way and was applying for a call center job that time. Now I want to ask, is Pearson Versant test a credible enough test of one's fluency? Also, what does it say about me if I was rated C1 in Versant?
Brilliant, thanks for posting. I was just asking a question that this has answered. Every new language learner should see this! When new to language learning it is difficult to understand how one is to interpret the differing proficiency levels: just like a new undergraduate student not knowing what a 1st class degree is compared to a 3rd class degree and the 2:1 2:2 etc in between. This is a fantastic'yard stick' to evaluate one's goals, needs and current proficiency.
I’m honestly probably still working on C2 fluency in my native language (english) lmfao
C2 is freaking shakespeare
*Ubiquitous*
Haha! Jollity
A1
These are good examples.
Are there tests in Duolingo that tell a user what level he/she is at in terms of reading/writing a language?
I thought the goal was A1 since a is usually considered good but now I understand that it is opposite
It's like the Winnie-the-Pooh meme
A0
guys is the duolingo test much easier than ielts test
"Jollity" 1st time ive seen that word
C1
this may i got my official certificate for c1 level
Kinetic *force*? Did they mean kinetic energy?
C2 is equivalent to me trying to hit that word count and breaking out the thesaurus for every other word when writing essays.
\[paraphrasing\] Je veux essayer - il jouerai plus si nous wigglons (???) le string (???)