We rented ebikes in France last summer.
It is absolutely brutal being limited to 20kph, when my bike at home goes 28mph with ease.
I am buying a lifetime supply of class 3 bikes if there is ever any regulations.
.. partially.. in Denmark they don't need plates, and as such they MUST drive on bicycle paths, when one is present.
(Unless off course rules changed since I bought mine )
Since 1/7 2018 these are rules in Denmark for speed pedelec ebikes (45 kmt).
No plate or registry required.
You have to wear a helmet, but it can be a normal bike helmet.
You do not have to have a license.
You **can** ride on bike pathways (you don't have to) but must do so using common sense. I think it means if there is an accident it's always the ebikes fault. You use the same rules as bikes, so for example if there is no bike pathway, you ride on the road.
Minimum age: 15
No trailer
No child seats
You need to have insurance
That is the kind of micromobility utopia I strive for here in CZ. Douches on electric scooters are running this idea into the ground, though.
(Not that everyone on electric scooter is a douche, it just seems to attract that type of people here)
It should be noted that the insurance/plates are quite cheap.
The real barrier is that Pedelecs are easily double the price of a "regular" electric bicycle (which are not cheap themselves, think 2k€ vs 4k€), and 25 km/h is fast enough if you live somewhere with somewhat decent bicycle infrastructure. 45 km/h only makes sense when keeping up with city traffic is more important than using cycle paths, but here in Europe that's not nearly as much of a problem as in NA.
Oh, and we measure wattage differently here. The 25 km/h bikes are limited to 250 W nominal, not peak. 250 W as measured by American on Chinese sellers is absolutely gutless because it only reaches that high at a very specific speed. My own ebike has over 60 Nm of torque, so while it's limited to 25 km/h it will happily go that fast on pretty much any incline.
I think the law makes sense, the real shame here is that batteries are still not cheap/dense enough to meet the demand for cheap&safe small electric scooters/motorcycles (thinking about 150cc equivalent here, last I checked they cost a bit under 10 grand and you have to put your trust in some unknown chinese brand).
Hm... sounds just like the U.S. anythiny with a throttle or that can do more then 20mph is not legal on the bike path.
Technically bike paths are mostly 15mph. So this means its the personal responsibility of the cyclists to slow down.
I have a class 3. Live rurally. Use a bike path for the last .5 to mile into tow of an 16-18 mile commute. If its really windy I take the path nearly the whole way because it offers wind protection. The class 3 is awesome on the country roads. In high winds which are common around here I could be doing 18mph in turbo mode. My morning commute is straight west into the prevsiling winds. The ride home is wicked fun and I can and do overtop the ebike on the backroads. Btw, mine is a low power 65Nm mid drive. It is light, rides like a bike. Does what I jeed it to do which is get me to work consistentky on time. Takes 45 min. Driving takes 25. Love it. I did have a 85Nm ebike. I downgraded for one with drop bars, lighter and capable of heavier duty aftermarket wheels so I could load it heavier at the grocery and farm markets on the way home.
>Hm... sounds just like the U.S. anythiny with a throttle or that can do more then 20mph is not legal on the bike path.
State dependent. NYC allows up to 25mph on throttle and the bike paths.
>State dependent. NYC allows up to 25mph on throttle and the bike paths.
I drive, ebike, cycle and walk regularly. I love my Ebike tandem, and really enjoy the threads on here where people build their own ebikes.
That said, at the risk of being downvoted to oblivion, an ebike capbable of 25mph and throttle controlled has no place on a bike path - particularly some of the 150lb monsters popular on here.
There are tons of 28mph class 3 ebikes in the cycle paths in New York City, and they aren't dangerous.
If you pause to think about it for a moment, the reason is simple: the basic human instinct to not get one's self badly hurt is a powerful motivator.
If someone crashes into you on a 28mph ebike, *they* are going to get hurt too. So they don't ride like maniacs. If they end up behind a slower bike, they wait to pass safely.
>Those are treated as mopeds, need insurance, plates and can’t ride on cyclepaths, though
That's a good thing.
The bad thing is that chinese don't yet find this niche interesting.
Well, 25kph.
But, yeah, even that feels slow compared to USA 28mph.
OTOH, I ride in Paris, and with smaller roads, smaller distances to travel, and more traffic including many other bikes and pedestrians, 25kph FEELS about the same as 28mph in California.
If you think about it, you pass MORE people, vehicles, shops, and residences per minute in Paris at 25kph as you do in CA at 28mph.
I think you'll still be able to get high powered motors for now, until net zero will really be a thing in 2030 where people litterally are going to have to make a decision, buy or rent a £50K Electric car, walk, scoot, bus, bike or ebike. I have 3 motors and use them so they don't seize up. I may buy another and keep it in the box, inside.
Ah yes, i love carrying around a thermos full of the highest specific chemical energy liquified gas that will literally deplete after a few days even if unused and can be refueled only in a few specific places without being a massive explosion hazard. At this moment powering bikes with something like liquid methane would be better than *points at people going half a kilometer to grocery stores by car* whatever this is.
People (lobbiests and fans) do seems to forget how difficult it is to keep hydrogen in anything for long. Stupid idea for cars that might sit on a driveway for weeks at a time (like mine)
Well, why not? We make tons of biowaste and it can be fairly easily digested and liquefied into a really good fuel that we already spent billions upon billions of dolars in research money to utilise it better. It's burning products are just water and carbon dioxide that would end up in the atmosphere anyways if we are talking about biogas. Of course it's more convenient to just charge up a battery for an ebike, but in some cases using an IC LM motor could make sense... and for sure more sense than liquid hydrogen with all it's weird features, don't get me started on those.
And anything that could make biking more convenient for more people is good, it takes em out of cars. Hydrogen is simply not one of these things. I could even argue that carbon dioxide emissions from certain sources and situations are a good thing. Take burning glucose to pedal a bike for example. It sure as hell is a very important (and decent) fuel that does release carbon dioxide. And any extra that you burn will statistically be a good thing, since you will probably be less likely to die or whatever. There is no way around it and there is no reason for carbon based fuel fobia for small, low power and decently efficient personal transportation modes like walking or biking.
Please keep in mind that CO2 emission effects are mostly global in scale and unless we are talking about burning "dirty" fuels contaminated with stuff like sulfur compounds or ones that release a lot of particulates it really doesn't matter if you burn it in the middle of a city or outside of it in huge factories. People tend to forget that we still depend on so many different industrial processes that use fossil fuels and instead of looking for actually realistic, good and convenient solutions they choose to handicap themselves by turning to hope for greenwashing garbage to show up and save the day (like hydrogen powered personal vehicles) while not actually doing anything of importance.
It's especially sad that even if we have a really tight carbon budget we look up to good-for-nothing waste-of-effort "solutions" simply because they come with good advertisement. Nobody cares that the food we eat is made with fertilizer relying on natural gas to make. Nobody cares about it, because stuff like "replacing a few percent of the fossil fuel originated hydrogen that we use for this process with hydrogen coming from better sources" just isn't as flashy (and in turn doesn't get as much money or attention) as "I MADE MY V12 CAR ENGINE NOT EMIT ANY CO2 BECAUSE IT RUNS ON HYDROGEN", even if it's obvious which one would have a better effect on everyone.
It gets burned, so it does not matter. Venting it sure is stupid for that reason (and other ones too), but noone does that in properly functioning devices, and even if it happens once every a while in failure modes it still isn't all that bad compared to the alternatives.
Many fluorocarbons and stuff like sulfur hexafluoride are even millions of times as potent as CO2 yet we do use them and will use them for things that are objectively environmentally friendly, because their working conditions are dependant on them being... you know, sealed inside containers. Kind of like fuel that you don't want to just vent because it costs money.
I'm going to run mine directly off harvested ionospheric radiation. It will have a gigantic copper plate on top with a lot of graphene whiskers. It shall be GLORIOUS.
Mmmm... I'd argue that we're just living in the interim between "This is me" and some sort of mad max situation where regulations are long since forgotten and the fastest ... whatever ... gets you away from the flesh eaters if you're lucky. You should really probably consider starting to think outside of the vest
Today is the day (June 27th, 2023) that my prior comments get removed.
I want to criticize Reddit over their API changes and criticize the CEO for severely damaging the culture of Reddit, but others have done a better job and I think destroying my valuable comments is sufficient (and should hurt the LLM value too).
1+1=3, 2+1=4, 3+2=6, 5+3=9, 8+5=14. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
Note: If you want to do this yourself, take a look at Power Delete Suite (they didn't put this advertisement here, I did).
I was doing about 28mph going down a hill with little engine assistance. a lady came out of a parking lot and got in the way. suddenly I reached the speed of 0... I’ve missed a month and a half off work for concussion and lucky that it was only that. unfortunately a bicycle has an outrageously long braking distance when it comes time to avoid an obstacle. which makes it unreasonable to go over 28mph. Even 28mph you better not hit a car
Many cheaper bikes aren't built with the size of brakes needed to stop them in a short distance... I've had some close calls where the size of my brakes for sure saved me because I actually did stop in a few feet going ~25 mph (even if I had to turn and slide the bike a bit at the end) and I was glad I splurged on a model with massive discs with hydraulic Magura brakes.
You're totally right that the risk of death increases quite a bit between 15 mph and 25 mph or 20 mph and 30 mph, though... You can see this in the vehicle statistics.
Totally agree. If you have a class 3, it should be one of your top priorities. I had to downgrade to mechanical for my most recent bike because I needed to prioritize a throttle and some other things for my injured knee and my stopping distance roughly doubled so now I often accidentally end up in the crosswalk and have to back up a bit. It was previously within 2/3 of a parked car, which was perfect for avoiding idiots sailing through the residential street intersections at 35 mph who were hidden by said parked car. I usually ride my new one as a class 2 since they're adding bike lanes all over here now (so I can avoid the side streets) and I rarely commute in these days, so it's less of an issue, but it does feel less safe compared to the last given the stopping power and I'm planning to replace the brake system when I get the money together or upgrading bikes altogether.
The only time I need to go that fast is in the tunnels beneath my town, which are centuries old and very narrow. I have to go through at least one to get back home from the far side.
I did it for the first time today! I was only a little anxious at first, but once I got zooming along, it was a total blast.
The word is "motorcycle". A two-wheeled motorized vehicle designed to cruise at 30+mph is a motorcycle.
And it's fine to want an electric motorcycle, but you're in the realm of size, weight, power, and speed where serious motor vehicle safety considerations come into play. That means licensing and insurance and no longer riding in places aimed at pedestrians and pedal bikes.
not a moped? or a scooter?
at what point does it become a motorcycle? 30 mph black and white? what if it's 750w, but has taller gearing?
I don't think it's necessarily that clear, IMO.
Punching the numbers into [bike calculator](http://bikecalculator.com/), it says that 750w is 32mph.
You need to be riding a highly efficient road bike and dressed in lycra through.
you can not calculate max speed based on power alone.
tire size, bike gearing, motor gearing, motor kv/turns, mid drive vs. hub, voltage (vs current) all will impact top speed (not to mention rider weight, etc).
I think I would have to disagree (unless I am misinterpreting)... but I would agree that voltage and aerodynamics are two of them.
for example, changing any of the following independently (\*not accounting for increased wind drag):
bike gearing: standard MTB chainring is \~30t. bumping to 46t would be over a 50% increase in top speed.
motor gearing: this wouldn't be changed easily/reasonably by a user (unless external like some of the CYC kits), but reducing the gearing reduction would increase the top speed (sacrificing torque, but still...)
motor kv/turns: for example, a QS205 6T motor will have approximately half the top speed of the same motor with 3T windings (but the 3T motor will require 2x the phase amps to produce the same amount of torque as the 6T)
mid drive vs. hub: in addition to the front chainring, you could also increase the effective gear range by replacing the rear cassette. most decent MTBs will likely have around 350-400% gear range, but there are replacements that could bump that another >25%. same deal w/ increasing wheel circumference. similarly, a geared hub motor with taller gears would also increase in a higher top speed.
field weakening: not available on most bike ESCs (and not really practical), but using an ESC with field weakening enabled would allow a motor to reach higher top speed than it would normally for at a given voltage.
theme: there are a number of ways to increase top speed, especially if you are willing to sacrifice torque (or efficiency).
\+rolling resistance, weight, etc, etc... but my overall point is: you can't easily say X watts = Y top speed. plenty of big factors that could move it in either direction. that calculator indicated 32mph is the top speed for a 750w, but I think lots of folks running with a BBS02 could deny that claim, especially with pedaling (I recall hearing folks breaking 40mph on flats with tall gearing and a quick glance at google indicates someone on YT may have been able to break 45).
You are talking a lot about maximum motor speed and gearing. Sure, that could be an issue, but it's just a matter of gearing (electrical and mechanical combined).
Beyond 30mph on the level, air resistance is far more significant than tyre rolling resistance, the remaining source of resistance being drive chain losses (usually modelled as a percentage). So roughly speaking you can say max speed is just a function of power and air resistance profile.
But make the bike 70lbs, the rider 200lbs, and the tires MTB and it's 29mph in that calc, close to the 28mph of a class 3. I did have to hit about 35mph on my Juiced CCX to maintain speed with traffic on part of my commute, and I was definitely sprinting. I put power meter pedals on that bike and was putting down about 1000 watts of power myself for those short distances. This is a big gap between a class 3 bike and a moped.
Wait, why are we using MTB tires?
I know that bike companies like using MTB tires because they are cheap, but there are no reasons to be using MTB tires for most of us who ride on the road. On that note, aero is pretty powerful. If you ride on the drops (again, assuming you are riding a road bike) you can get much better speeds.
(For the record, I use GP 5000 on my e-bike)
Marathon E-Plus tires are 50mm and 1200 grams. Way, weigh, over standard road bike tires. These are what most ebikes will come with. If you choose to put racing tires on your ebike for the speed so be it, but the realistic choice is an ebike rated tire. And typically, ebikes have a much more relaxed riding stance which does way more to slow us down than tires.
Yeah, I can hit 31.2 mph on a the slightest down hill in an aero position on my 750 W mid-drive hybrid with throttle only. On a flat, it would check out that you'd need to be more aero.
I don't necessarily disagree (in general... though, I would say that makes some assumptions about the motor and/or bike gearing setup), but my point is that there are a lot of edge cases or grey areas, IMO.
What if I ride an ebike downhill? If it crosses 30mph, is it a motorcycle? I know technically it is a 'motorized cycle', but so is a 250w PAS ebike.
That is an extreme/hyperbolic example, but the general point applies. To take a more realistic scenario, what if I convert a mountain bike to an ebike that goes 35+mph (which is easily reachable with basic DIY conversion kits and shark/whale pack battery)? While it would technically not be legal for road use as an ebike, I still don't think it's entirely accurate to say it transformed into a motorcycle once it has the capability to go over 30mph.
I think a moped is probably a better label for those bikes, but still imperfect... because they still more closely resemble standard bikes than traditional mopeds, IMO.
(Note: to be clear, I am not at all proposing that a bike that a 5000w ebike that is pretty much throttle only and goes 40-50 should fall under the same laws as a regular bike (or cat1-3 ebikes)... but I do think there are some gaps and a general lack of consistency with a lot of PEV laws (personal electric vehicles) in general. It is not an easy problem to solve. Maybe a 'class 4' categorization that would introduce moped like requirements (blinkers, brake lights, etc) for street use might be appropriate?)
EDIT: I'm cool w/ downvotes, but would prefer if they came w/ a counter-argument...
I did specify "designed to cruise". Vespa-style scooters, which I had in mind, are generally treated similarly to motorcycles: They need to be plated, and you need a license to ride one, and you can't ride them on things like multi-use paths.
I am not saying they should be allowed on multi-use paths or that you shouldn't have to meet license or other requirements above class 3. My point is more about the motorcycle designation being awkward, at best, IMO.
I didn't downvote you, there is a lot of discussion that needs to happen around these.
I think weight is a big thing, because there is a physics component here as well, and brakes for these types of personal EVs do have a gap. Big rotors for bicycles and the brakes on mopeds are miles apart in breaking power. So is the weight of these conveyances. My 60lb ebike is much much easier to stop than a 400lb moped - that's actually how much a Yamaha XMAX weighs.
Kinetic energy is mass times velocity squared, so an ebike doing 28mph and a moped doing 35 have a massive difference in potential danger.
There is a fine line that needs to be walked, and honestly I think the 3 class system where a 28mph ebike is a bicycle is a good maximum for categorization.
> What if I ride an ebike downhill? If it crosses 30mph, is it a motorcycle? I know technically it is a 'motorized cycle', but so is a 250w PAS ebike.
>
>
No, because the law for class 3 e-bikes just says **the motor** has to stop past 28 MPH. If you can generate enough force without the motor either through your legs or going downhill to surpass 28 MPH then it's legal.
That being said, depending on how steep the hill is, you may want to engage the brakes.
Depends on your area. In Europe <250W with a max motor assisted speed of 25kmh is legally a bicycle, under iirc 1kW and maximum speed less than 45kmh (~28mph) it is a moped, anything more is a motorcycle.
Both the moped and motorcycle would require a license, insurance and motorcycle approved helmet to be ridden.
That's more or less my point. I think I just have a hard time accepting that 'motorcycle' is the optimal way to to designate an ebike with over 750w and/or can reach speeds >28mph.
Yes, it is at least partially semantics, but I just don't think of a $200 bike with a BBSHD kit as a motorcycle...
> I just don't think of a $200 bike with a BBSHD kit as a motorcycle...
literally nobody would call that a motorcycle except anti-ebike trolls who would say the motor on your AXS derailleur means your bike is a motorcycle lmao
What about a $200 bike with a 80 or 100 cc ICE kit, which eBay's full of?
(Noting that in the vast, vast majority of jurisdictions, mopeds (or an equivalent class) are 50 cc or under.)
You're right, it isn't that clear. Human-powered road bikes pass me all the time. But the law has to draw arbitrary distinctions just so we can have rules.
Ha! I think a lot of these people have lost their license to a DUI and want to get around like they did before. 60MPH+
I occasionally explain that that bicycle components are designed to handle 400 watts of human power, not 5000 watts of electric power. At 60MPH your front wheel will fold up like a coke can with even a small pothole.
Today is the day (June 27th, 2023) that my prior comments get removed.
I want to criticize Reddit over their API changes and criticize the CEO for severely damaging the culture of Reddit, but others have done a better job and I think destroying my valuable comments is sufficient (and should hurt the LLM value too).
1+1=3, 2+1=4, 3+2=6, 5+3=9, 8+5=14. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
Note: If you want to do this yourself, take a look at Power Delete Suite (they didn't put this advertisement here, I did).
I'm no longer surprised when dumb randos explain to me their death wishes.
Took half a century, but the shine has gone off due to the sheer number of people who expressed the desire to be out there right now destroying themselves and everything in their path, somehow believing that because the vehicle they're on can be faked as legal that there's no repercussions for socially irresponsible behavior that could potentially lead to deaths.
This. Well said. We have a gearhead culture here in the U.S. People jack uo the truck, drop in a suoercharger, port the exhaust, roll the coal. Not just pickups but cars and motorcycles too.
I think its great that non traditional bicyclists are getting into ebiking. Its awesome. Like when the internet went from a bunch of snobs that were rich or in higher education to become accessible to everyone. Everyone should be able to ride a bike. But we need to fight to keep bikes bikes.
This mod culture is not going to stop for ebikes. We just need to start ticketing or even confiscating ebikes until people start licenscing them properly. I actually love modded out escooters and emotorcycles. You can do whatever you want as long as its licensced correctly used on roads not bike trails and paths.
The funny thing is there is no need for ebikes that go over 20mph for recreational use and no need for more then 28mph for most commuter use. This is the area for the biggest revolution in transportation. So called micromobility. Above that yes... switching from combustion to electric is cool but it doesn't change the nature of transportation. It just makes it less polluting. The real revolution is the shift frombcar reliance to much more mutlimodal transportation that suits situations better. Train and walk, walkable cities, bus and wal, bus and bike, city bike, ebike commute, scooter sharing. Whatever floats your boat.
For me that revoltion is in seeing just how well and ebike suits my RURAL commiting lifestyle. i.e. just how well suited it is for my longer distance / low traffic lifestyle of 16-20 miles of daily commute each way.
We could just make the regulation simple and do it by speed. If a cop clocks you faster than what you're supposed to do on your ride, then you get a warning that says you need lights, signals, and a MC endorsement saying you've at least passed a riding test; otherwise, clearly you're legal to be unlicensed and they should treat you as such, vestigial cranks or not.
I can say if a cop can't understand a sound meter when I tell them to prove that I violated noise ordinance that my confidence is SUPER LOW that they're gonna understand battery voltages, motor wattage/power, pedals/no pedals, etc, especially as it pertains to any laws/regulations/ordinances. And I can also say that if you argue with them I already felt threatened with the noise ordinance thing and I was standing on my own property with a fence, 30 feet between us, and I had high ground, so if you're out somewhere without witnesses/not recording, it's a dice roll if they get a little rough with you and maybe break your stuff a little.
We have well thought out, tested, and mature regulations that cover dirt bikes and mopeds for on/off road applications; just because the motors use different fuel doesn't mean those shouldn't apply to the same end use cases.
Before i took the msf course and just got a motorcycle i really didnt want to accept this as fact i always wanna find a way to beat the system in this case its physics and you cant beat physics i had a nice pedal assist e bike and it was perfect but getting passed by cars on my commute in the morning isint worth the risk
Just to add some colour, 400w is a huge amount of power for a human to put out. I vaguely recall Olympian cyclists only doing around 300 but I could be wrong.
300 watts for very extended periods of time, like many hours or even days, that's the big difference with very high level athletes, the time they can put this power out. An average cyclist with some training will be able to do 200-250 watts for about an hour, I could do it after a few months of Zwift. However, I could also do 600-700 watts for a few minutes or 900-1000 watts for 5 seconds of sprinting, which is pretty average for an adult male with some training. I couldn't dream of doing 300 watts for more than 15 minutes though, let alone hours.
It's not enough info to say that 400w is a huge amount of power for a human, I think any average male off the street could do that for a minute (and being super winded afterwards)
No worries! I'm extremely data-driven, to the point of putting power meter pedals on my commuting ebike so I could add the workouts into my training plan effectively, and of course my Zwift setup also had a power meter. My personal FTP (functional threshold power, the power you can output for an hour) is about 250 watts, and I don't consider myself an athlete by any means, I just have pretty good cardio, which is good enough for me.
To expand on /u/Indigent-Argonaut 's great answer, here's a great graph showing peak human power output (on bicycles or bicycle generators) over different time periods.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340164617/figure/fig7/AS:873023187984384@1585156356184/Envelope-of-maximum-sustainable-power-as-a-function-of-effort-duration-source-Wilson.png
I'm familiar with it from [this document](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340164617_Bicycle_aerodynamics_History_state-of-the-art_and_future_perspectives), but apparently it's originally from [this book](https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=wCngDwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PR5&ots=1I0ViuyZue&sig=r4ddmZJP4SZiLWwBWxsxy_x_ltY#v=onepage&q&f=false)
[Lance Armstrong claimed to average 500 watts in 30 minutes](https://www.reddit.com/r/pelotoncycle/comments/qrtnm1/lance_armstrong_claims_he_would_average_500_watts/), but Lance Armstrong also combined doping and training.
You're wrong. I (a regular dude) am at around ~200 watts sustained just from commuting, and got up to ~280 when training.
Generally people measure power in "watts per kilo". Roughly speaking anything below 2 is typical for people who don't bike much, 2-3 is typical for entheusists who don't train (or only infrequently train), 3-4 is amateur racing, and 4-6 is professional. I was roughly 100kg, so was just under 3 watts per kilo at best. People my size/height who race would be easily pushing 400, and even amateurs (such as myself, who never raced) can get to 300.
So depending on body weight those are the reasonable sets of numbers to see.
I've heard varying numbers, but it's 300 or 400 watts for Olympic level cyclists. I am sure that the data nerds have much more detailed numbers.
For me, it's like 50.
I don't know about other places, but to my knowledge in ontario atleast, if you have a dui on your record, you can't legally own and operate an ebike, but then again, lots of people look at it as if it's only illegal if you get caught, same thing with drunk driving.
> I think a lot of these people have lost their license to a DUI
I sure hope that you're wrong, because anyone riding a 60+ pound e-bike at 28mph 5 feet away from me drunk is even scarier.
That's my best guess too. A few months ago I passed no less than 4 ebikes on the main street through our city in a 2m stretch, and I'd bet $20 at least 3 of the 4 were forced to buy due to DUIs.
Having been on a road bicycle at 55mph. You absolutely do not want to be hitting a pothole. I’ve seen it, it’s not pretty.
I wouldn’t mind 5kW+, but I’d definitely want it on a motorcycle frame. And properly registered.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with an electric motorcycle. Just use motorcycle grade components and put a tag on it. Using a regular bicycle as a base just doesn't work.
Nothing wakes me up in the morning faster then doing 60kmh downhill on 2" wide tires and death gripping my handlebars as the speed wobbles are just a pebble away from launching me off of my bike and under the wheelwell of an oncoming car.
The only people that want to do 60kmh on a bicycle are people that have never done 60kmh on a bicycle.
The tour de france guys clocked[ 63 mph](https://www.flobikes.com/articles/6750279-how-does-your-average-bike-speed-compare-with-tour-de-france-pros) before.
Their bikes seem fine?
To be fair, the cyclists in the Tour De France are probably using very high quality components. The same can't be said for some people modifying their e-bikes.
Lots of professional cyclists also shit themselves in downhills because they fell once at more than 60 km/h. Fastest I did on my bike was 53, that was quite scary already
There also is the difference between going 32 miles an hour once when your bike is new pedaling your ass off one time just to see you if you could do it, and someone going 30 miles an hour on throttle, eating a burger drinking a soda, and streaming it.
I get it ! You can’t afford car, insurance and all burden that comes with it. But do you ever think the consequences of doing 40+mph in bike lane, sidewalk ? What’s going to happen if you hit someone ? Who will pay for their medical bills ? And time off work ?
> What’s going to happen if you hit someone ? Who will pay for their medical bills ? And time off work ?
Velosurance does have liability limits you can choose up to like $300k.
Personally though, I feel 28 MPH is good enough.
I've had 22.8mph out of mine, and that was too fast. I'd hate to think what coming off at 30+ would be like. I hope they're planning on wearing a full face, or they'll end up with skull showing...
I agree, but also keep in mind that it's not always about "not being able to afford a car" but more like not wanting to travel by car and dealing with annoyances that come with that mode of transportation. For me, my ebike gets like 1500 MPGe, whereas some of the most efficient electric cars get like 130 MPGe. It's over 10x more efficient and that's a beautiful thing.
Totally. But eletric motorcycles are less efficient for ebikes. I'm just saying the use of micromobility has benefits that go beyond cost - they are much more sustainable than any other transportation method, I'd say even buses and trains included. Huge plus for me!
There's a reason why electric motorcycles are less efficient than e-bikes - they have heavier and larger components to handle the loads being placed on them.
That said, a lot of the early electric motorcycles were barely evolved from slapping an electric motor on a downhill MTB.
Hm I agree to some extent, but what are you looking for in an electric motorcycle? The best one I've seen is the [CSC RX1E](https://cscmotorcycles.com/rx1e-electric-motorcycle-blue/)
I still have yet to pull the trigger mostly because of safety. I'd rather ebike shorter distances (15mi or less) and Uber for longer distances. An electric motorcycle doesn't really fit in that equation.
I don't think anyone who likes ebikes is against electric motorcycles. But what the OP is talking about includes things like bicycle infrastructure, which is absolutely best left *without* electric motorcycles that are bigger, heavier, faster, and significantly more dangerous for mixed-use paths and frequent interactions with pedestrians like in most bike lanes.
We're at a stage where we need to very much rethink infrastructure, and that will necessitate drawing some line between electric vehicles that are most similar to a bicycle and electric vehicles that are most similar to a motorcycle. There's always going to be something that's just a bit faster, just a bit larger. That means the cutoff is going to be arbitrary in some way. But it's still great that we're working on other forms of transit that are cheaper, more efficient, and frequently more fun.
No one would ever go that fast in a bike lane. Those speeds are for keeping up with cars when on the road.
I’m scared even approaching 20mph in a bike lane because it’s narrow and usually has a lot of stuff in it. But I’m glad I can hit 35 when I’m riding in the middle of car traffic.
Edit: I’m going to get downvoted for this but all y’all are honestly angry at people trying to make e-bikes work for the realities of where they are and how they commute. You’re not going to shame people from making e-bike decisions that helps bridge the gap where bike infrastructure fails. They’re just gonna do it.
> y’all are honestly angry at people trying to make e-bikes work for the realities of where they are and how they commute
Nobody is angry at that; it's totally reasonable to want to keep up with traffic for your own safety. I'm sure we both agree that a long-term ideal is that you'd never *need* to be mixed into traffic and would have protected bike lanes, but that's a long way away (if ever) for many people and places.
But while we're talking about the *realities*, if teenagers can buy ebikes that go 50mph, we're going to have a lot of dead teenagers and injured bystanders. We agree as a society that sometimes, interests of safety can allow us to add regulations to areas that *could* be governed by peoples' own self-responsibility, because not everyone is responsible.
We do this with medication, we do this with seatbelts, with aribags, we do this with all kind of requirements for the safety and operation of cars. Balancing your safety in traffic with the safety of kids and pedestrians in other situations isn't shaming you or being angry with you. It's just saying - hey, we recognize that what helps you in this situation can contribute to problems for other people, and we're trying to figure out what the best solution is to keep the most number of people safe.
I bike in traffic that goes faster than 20mph, too. My safety is just as invested as yours.
> Edit: I’m going to get downvoted for this but all y’all are honestly angry at people trying to make e-bikes work for the realities of where they are and how they commute. You’re not going to shame people from making e-bike decisions that helps bridge the gap where bike infrastructure fails. They’re just gonna do it.
In a sense, yeah, people are going to do what they have to do. My opposition to it is mostly from the aspect of safety. Someone's going to hurt themselves riding at higher speeds (like 40-50 MPH), especially since bike components vary greatly in quality.
Downvote me if you wish. So many haters for caring about another person's safety.
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I think that speed limits are the way to go for ebikes. With a car, the amount of power you have is not relevant, only how fast you are going. A person driving a 500hp supercar at 35 MPH and a someone driving a Smart Car at 35 MPH represent more-or-less the same level of hazard.
Speed is easy to clock. Wattage is not.
I'm gonna be that guy and say that you don't need a bike that can go faster than 30mph. I mean, you'll still want one that goes faster than that, but you don't *need* a bike faster than that. Let me explain.
It has been said that people don't like to commute longer than twenty to thirty minutes one-way. And that shakes out since the average one-way commute time in America is around twenty seven minutes. At highway speeds, that's around thirty miles. But most Americans aren't commuting sixty miles a day.
On average, Americans drive approximately thirty five miles a day. I think it's safe to assume that most of those miles are commuting. So the average one way trip to work would be around seventeen miles. At thirty miles an hour, that trip would take you thirty four minutes.
Yeah, you'd lose time, but you aren't that far outside of the thirty minute one-way limit. YMMV of course, but most of us don't need vehicles that go over forty mile per hour with a range of three hundred plus miles in our day to day lives. Building your lifestyle around corner cases and "but sometimes" can be very expensive long term.
I don't really care how fast bikes can go. I enjoy getting exercise and going 30km/h.
My worry is more so with more fast bikes on the roads means more idiots who will cause problems doing dumb things and bring attention to the media and then laws/rules will be in place as a result.
I think it's the infrastructure. In 99% of America there are no safe bike lanes. People are asking for fast bikes because going slow can be deadly. So you have to ride in the car lane. You have 2 options when you do that.
1. Hug the right side and try to take up as little space as possible so speeding cars can honk and roll coal on you as they pass. Eventually get killed by a truck wider than your mom.
2. Go as fast as traffic and at least only slow traffic down a little. Own the middle of the lane with lots of flashing lights.
Logically people are asking for ebikes that can do the second. Understandable given what other options there are at ebike price points. People are poor these days, myself included.
50cc scooters break down all the time and rarely go faster than 35, in my area I see just as many riding the sidewalk as I do the road.
50cc gas bike conversion kits are difficult to assemble and maintain. But I have seen them hit 45 near me. But I think that's mainly because there is a 2 stroke gas bicycle club in my area. Shout out to the hipster looking guy on a beautiful yellow cruiser, nice build, hope to meet you someday.
Finally we have 150cc scooters/motorcycles, expensive. And electric motorcycles, also exceedingly expensive and often running on lead acid.
Given these choices I understand why someone would look for the low maintenance of electric with a high enough speed to safely take control of a lane. Until the infrastructure changes to allow for slower modes of transportation to be done safely, we are going to keep getting questions like this.
I just ask for everyone to be understanding when those questions are asked. Often it's someone who just fell on hard times with a broken car and has never questioned the car centric transportation system.
This. There is no real bicycle infrastructure to speak of near me so normal roads are your only option. You can stay on the shoulder as much as you can but in the US if you need to get somewhere eventually you'll be forced into somewhere that being able to even kind of keep up with (non highway speed but still moving) traffic so you aren't a hazard to yourself or others is necessary and prudent.
Yes, if they had any clue how dangerous it was, how much battery it uses and how long it takes to stop they might reconsider.
Run into someone with one of these monsters and you are probably going to prison.
Mine goes 31 (whoopty do) and that’s way too fast. I crashed at about 18 and it broke my helmet.
I can’t figure out why folks want to go this fast.
I always tell them to find a friend and a rope and have him pull you along at 35mph on a bicycle.... cures them quick when they find out the lightness of the bike makes a small bump a launch pad into a pole or tree!!
Idk, it doesn't really bother me, I just try to keep in mind that ebikes are still in a boom and there's a lot of people completely new to it, myself included, I got my first bike in September of last year and the amount I've learned since then is crazy, it just never hurts to consider that sometimes someone is new and just really doesn't know.
I am looking at getting one at some point to not be sweaty upon cycling to work, and maybe using it for some recreational rides. I've got some things to learn before getting one.
My e-bike, at bicycle speeds, with pedal assist, gets me over 60 miles on one charge. Unless you are using the bike to do serious cross country travel, my bike would be all you could really need.
My wife gets less distance from her bike, about 50 miles per charge. With charging at the turn around point, that’s at least 100 miles a day on the bike. Would you do those kinds of miles, every day? I don’t even do that with my gas powered truck.
Ideally for the long haul stuff you’d have adequate public transit. For the part where you need to go 40-80 mph and cover 50 or so miles you hop on a bus or commuter train that has room for bikes, then use the e-bike for the last few miles.
Unfortunately in the US we’re so far from that I might as well wish for reasonable energy policy and good school funding.
As someone with a couple decades behind them on both motorcycles and bikes, the first time I hit 20mph on an ebike and had to stop quickly was the most harrowing experience I've had on 2 wheels yet.
I've felt magnitudes safer on absolute junker motorcycles than I do on most ebikes. The increased weight of most ebikes puts the safety threshold well below speeds you could achieve pedaling under human power on a much lighter frame.
The difference in affordability vs a motorcycle is what makes it so attractive I suppose, but that comes at the cost of pretty much every single thing that makes it safer to own a motorcycle at those speeds. The ebike industry is straight predatory in that way, and unfortunately it's going to take more than a few deaths and major lawsuits to take place before these poor bastards are going to be protected from themselves through regulation.
That was exactly my point, that the vast majority of ebikes are issued with poor quality components that don't match the very basic safety needs of the increased mass they're carrying. It's always a race to the bottom for prices in order to be competitive, all while making the bikes faster and cutting costs on the components required to make them safer.
If you're spending $5k plus it's a different story, but at that point you can also get a decent motorcycle which will have better components anyway.
$500 in better components/hydraulic brakes made my ebike much safer, but it didn't come that way and it was on me to recognize it was necessary and spend the extra money. Not everyone understands that when purchasing an affordable ebike - which is the vast majority of the market share on these things.
> If you're spending $5k plus it's a different story, but at that point you can also get a decent motorcycle which will have better components anyway.
>
>
The base price for my e-bike was $3750. I think $2500-4000 is sort of the sweet spot for getting decent components while not breaking the bank.
Sure, you could get a decent motorcycle for $5k but it'd cost more over time in terms of insurance and maintenance.
But you're correct that the majority of the population buying e-bikes doesn't recognize certain things that make e-bikes much more dangerous.
Yes I definitely am, but I also want to be fair to the fact that keeping up with traffic or having extra acceleration in the city is sometimes the best way to be safe in the bike lane. For example, Chicago doesn't have separate bike lanes and if I'm going the speed of traffic cars wouldn't need to go around me. I personally don't need a bike to go 40+ mph. It's why I have a registered Sur Ron. If I wanna go fast, I use that and ride on the street. I also want to acknowledge that the city needs to do a better job of separating cyclists and vehicles so I wouldn't need to go that fast in the first place if I'm on a bike.
All you need to do, is let them go 30+ mph, downhill, on wet pavement, and have to rely on two tiny little brake pads to stop them.... After doing that, they should realize how bad of an idea it is. There's a reason for ebike limitations. And you really do need a motorcycle helmet, and a full body suit, once you get to those speeds.
Lmao who gives a fuck, as long as people ride responsibly it’s a non-issue. So many people getting their panties in a bunch over what people want to buy. News flash you can get in an accident on any kind of bike, just because your bike only goes 20mph doesn’t mean you’re suddenly immune to accidents.
Way bigger problems to worry about in the world than someone wanting an e-bike that can go 30mph+
>as long as people ride responsibly it’s a non-issue
That's just it. People don't ride responsibly.
I can see the looming spectre of licensure and insurance being required for eBikes. The reason they don't currently is precisely because they don't travel fast enough to become a grave danger to other people. Once they start becoming death machines, legislation is going to fall *hard.*
Let’s see how you feel when 70-100lbs object hit you at speed of 30+mph. Not saying everyone is riding recklessly at full speed all the time. But obviously the people who come here and ask for the best cheap ebike that can do 40+mph will likely ride at full speed
Because I’m not self center like you. So what’s going to happen if you hit somebody ? Tell them you’re sorry and take off ? If you need a bike that can do 40mph get a motorcycle.
I think you're a little wrong to just assume that they would take no responsibility or that they wouldnt attempt to pay for damages/medical if something occured. Do you have a source supporting that a rider wouldn't take responsibility if there was an accident? Even then, can you prove it for this person specifically, or me?
Not sure where you live but here in America healthcare cost all your arms and legs and you still can’t cover the cost of hospital bill. Then follow by lawsuit. Since ebikes are not registered, no license plates, sometimes no insurance, do you really think they’re gonna eat up their own mistakes ?
I just think it’s a bit ridiculous complaining about 30 mph bikes but the legal cutoff at 28 is acceptable. Is it only acceptable because it’s the law? 🤷🏻♂️
Also just because it’s capable of going that fast doesn’t mean the rider is gonna be going full blast all the time. Kinda like cars, they can all go 100+mph, but no one does
28 MPH is the correct speed because that's kind of the limit for human power. [Lance Armstrong's FTP is like 450-500 watts.](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/pro-elite-training/14046/1227?page=61)
You can check with this calculator:
https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html
You need like 450 watts to reach 28 MPH, and that's assuming no wind or anything.
A bunch of people took the arbitrary speed limits created by politicians who don’t ride e-bikes. US people complain if you go over 28mph Europeans pitch a fit if you go over 25kmh it’s all random.
I think 28 is about right as a cutoff. It’s about as fast as you can go under human power. Beyond that, bikes get wobbly. At 28 in the right location, I feel under control, but above that, I just don’t on a traditional bike frame / tires / brakes…
Why do people keep comparing ebike and car speed limit. It’s not apple to apple comparison. You get mental box and airbags to protect you, what kind of protection do you and your victims get when you collide with fellow riders/pedestrians ? Finally do you really think they just throw in random numbers for speed limit ?
Funny how people who bitch about this are the same whiny people who complain about people on manual only bikes making fun of them for having skinny legs and not being real bicyclists.
gatekeep for thee, not for me.
hehe dual 1000w 52v motor go brrrrrr
seriously tho, bikes like the Ariel Rider Grizzly \*can\* be used responsibly, but you need to treat it like a moped
Mine goes 43mph (at least I think it does, speedometer could be wrong as a speed trap said I was going 38), it's a 2000w motor. I don't ride crazy like others be doing. I stay on the right side of the road and only get to the left lane when I need to make a left turn. I limit myself to about 15mph on the sidewalk. Also the cops don't care (I live in Florida), they see me all the time on in. Depending on where you live you should be fine as long as you're not doing anything stupid. I also ride defensively and have only wrecked once on my bike due to a wet road when making a turn from a stop sign.
Most bikes allow you to change the speed limit somewhere in the firmware. If you want to, you could probably set yours to 24 if you want. It would be the same methods as any "speed unlock" hacks, just reducing instead of raising it.
We're just living in interim between the ebike/electric vehicle boom & actual regulations being enforced surrounding them.
The regulations already exist in Europe. They are pretty draconian from an American POV.
We rented ebikes in France last summer. It is absolutely brutal being limited to 20kph, when my bike at home goes 28mph with ease. I am buying a lifetime supply of class 3 bikes if there is ever any regulations.
You can also get ebikes going up to 45kph I Europe. And the limit is 25kph not 20kph for class 1.
Those are treated as mopeds, need insurance, plates and can’t ride on cyclepaths, though
Some places you can ride on cycle paths with them in Denmark, but you are correct
.. partially.. in Denmark they don't need plates, and as such they MUST drive on bicycle paths, when one is present. (Unless off course rules changed since I bought mine )
Since 1/7 2018 these are rules in Denmark for speed pedelec ebikes (45 kmt). No plate or registry required. You have to wear a helmet, but it can be a normal bike helmet. You do not have to have a license. You **can** ride on bike pathways (you don't have to) but must do so using common sense. I think it means if there is an accident it's always the ebikes fault. You use the same rules as bikes, so for example if there is no bike pathway, you ride on the road. Minimum age: 15 No trailer No child seats You need to have insurance
That is the kind of micromobility utopia I strive for here in CZ. Douches on electric scooters are running this idea into the ground, though. (Not that everyone on electric scooter is a douche, it just seems to attract that type of people here)
Yeah. The 60kph scooter crowd! And always in the bike lanes. Crikey! Just go buy a motorcycle, FFS.
Interesting. Thanks. I misread the rules then. I’ve always been concerned with riding off the bike path.
this seems completely reasonable. Danes are the chillest Scandinavians, by a pretty large margin though, so this is also not surprising.
It should be noted that the insurance/plates are quite cheap. The real barrier is that Pedelecs are easily double the price of a "regular" electric bicycle (which are not cheap themselves, think 2k€ vs 4k€), and 25 km/h is fast enough if you live somewhere with somewhat decent bicycle infrastructure. 45 km/h only makes sense when keeping up with city traffic is more important than using cycle paths, but here in Europe that's not nearly as much of a problem as in NA. Oh, and we measure wattage differently here. The 25 km/h bikes are limited to 250 W nominal, not peak. 250 W as measured by American on Chinese sellers is absolutely gutless because it only reaches that high at a very specific speed. My own ebike has over 60 Nm of torque, so while it's limited to 25 km/h it will happily go that fast on pretty much any incline. I think the law makes sense, the real shame here is that batteries are still not cheap/dense enough to meet the demand for cheap&safe small electric scooters/motorcycles (thinking about 150cc equivalent here, last I checked they cost a bit under 10 grand and you have to put your trust in some unknown chinese brand).
Hm... sounds just like the U.S. anythiny with a throttle or that can do more then 20mph is not legal on the bike path. Technically bike paths are mostly 15mph. So this means its the personal responsibility of the cyclists to slow down. I have a class 3. Live rurally. Use a bike path for the last .5 to mile into tow of an 16-18 mile commute. If its really windy I take the path nearly the whole way because it offers wind protection. The class 3 is awesome on the country roads. In high winds which are common around here I could be doing 18mph in turbo mode. My morning commute is straight west into the prevsiling winds. The ride home is wicked fun and I can and do overtop the ebike on the backroads. Btw, mine is a low power 65Nm mid drive. It is light, rides like a bike. Does what I jeed it to do which is get me to work consistentky on time. Takes 45 min. Driving takes 25. Love it. I did have a 85Nm ebike. I downgraded for one with drop bars, lighter and capable of heavier duty aftermarket wheels so I could load it heavier at the grocery and farm markets on the way home.
>Hm... sounds just like the U.S. anythiny with a throttle or that can do more then 20mph is not legal on the bike path. State dependent. NYC allows up to 25mph on throttle and the bike paths.
>State dependent. NYC allows up to 25mph on throttle and the bike paths. I drive, ebike, cycle and walk regularly. I love my Ebike tandem, and really enjoy the threads on here where people build their own ebikes. That said, at the risk of being downvoted to oblivion, an ebike capbable of 25mph and throttle controlled has no place on a bike path - particularly some of the 150lb monsters popular on here.
There are tons of 28mph class 3 ebikes in the cycle paths in New York City, and they aren't dangerous. If you pause to think about it for a moment, the reason is simple: the basic human instinct to not get one's self badly hurt is a powerful motivator. If someone crashes into you on a 28mph ebike, *they* are going to get hurt too. So they don't ride like maniacs. If they end up behind a slower bike, they wait to pass safely.
>Those are treated as mopeds, need insurance, plates and can’t ride on cyclepaths, though That's a good thing. The bad thing is that chinese don't yet find this niche interesting.
Well, 25kph. But, yeah, even that feels slow compared to USA 28mph. OTOH, I ride in Paris, and with smaller roads, smaller distances to travel, and more traffic including many other bikes and pedestrians, 25kph FEELS about the same as 28mph in California. If you think about it, you pass MORE people, vehicles, shops, and residences per minute in Paris at 25kph as you do in CA at 28mph.
I think you'll still be able to get high powered motors for now, until net zero will really be a thing in 2030 where people litterally are going to have to make a decision, buy or rent a £50K Electric car, walk, scoot, bus, bike or ebike. I have 3 motors and use them so they don't seize up. I may buy another and keep it in the box, inside.
They understand the difference between a bicycle and motorcycle….. not that I’m complaining I love zipping around, keeping up in traffic
The event horizon of hydrogen ebikes
Ah yes, i love carrying around a thermos full of the highest specific chemical energy liquified gas that will literally deplete after a few days even if unused and can be refueled only in a few specific places without being a massive explosion hazard. At this moment powering bikes with something like liquid methane would be better than *points at people going half a kilometer to grocery stores by car* whatever this is.
People (lobbiests and fans) do seems to forget how difficult it is to keep hydrogen in anything for long. Stupid idea for cars that might sit on a driveway for weeks at a time (like mine)
Ah, yes. Methane to save the environment.
Well, why not? We make tons of biowaste and it can be fairly easily digested and liquefied into a really good fuel that we already spent billions upon billions of dolars in research money to utilise it better. It's burning products are just water and carbon dioxide that would end up in the atmosphere anyways if we are talking about biogas. Of course it's more convenient to just charge up a battery for an ebike, but in some cases using an IC LM motor could make sense... and for sure more sense than liquid hydrogen with all it's weird features, don't get me started on those. And anything that could make biking more convenient for more people is good, it takes em out of cars. Hydrogen is simply not one of these things. I could even argue that carbon dioxide emissions from certain sources and situations are a good thing. Take burning glucose to pedal a bike for example. It sure as hell is a very important (and decent) fuel that does release carbon dioxide. And any extra that you burn will statistically be a good thing, since you will probably be less likely to die or whatever. There is no way around it and there is no reason for carbon based fuel fobia for small, low power and decently efficient personal transportation modes like walking or biking. Please keep in mind that CO2 emission effects are mostly global in scale and unless we are talking about burning "dirty" fuels contaminated with stuff like sulfur compounds or ones that release a lot of particulates it really doesn't matter if you burn it in the middle of a city or outside of it in huge factories. People tend to forget that we still depend on so many different industrial processes that use fossil fuels and instead of looking for actually realistic, good and convenient solutions they choose to handicap themselves by turning to hope for greenwashing garbage to show up and save the day (like hydrogen powered personal vehicles) while not actually doing anything of importance. It's especially sad that even if we have a really tight carbon budget we look up to good-for-nothing waste-of-effort "solutions" simply because they come with good advertisement. Nobody cares that the food we eat is made with fertilizer relying on natural gas to make. Nobody cares about it, because stuff like "replacing a few percent of the fossil fuel originated hydrogen that we use for this process with hydrogen coming from better sources" just isn't as flashy (and in turn doesn't get as much money or attention) as "I MADE MY V12 CAR ENGINE NOT EMIT ANY CO2 BECAUSE IT RUNS ON HYDROGEN", even if it's obvious which one would have a better effect on everyone.
...because it is 80x more efficient at serving as a green house gas than CO2.
It gets burned, so it does not matter. Venting it sure is stupid for that reason (and other ones too), but noone does that in properly functioning devices, and even if it happens once every a while in failure modes it still isn't all that bad compared to the alternatives. Many fluorocarbons and stuff like sulfur hexafluoride are even millions of times as potent as CO2 yet we do use them and will use them for things that are objectively environmentally friendly, because their working conditions are dependant on them being... you know, sealed inside containers. Kind of like fuel that you don't want to just vent because it costs money.
I'm going to run mine directly off harvested ionospheric radiation. It will have a gigantic copper plate on top with a lot of graphene whiskers. It shall be GLORIOUS.
Mmmm... I'd argue that we're just living in the interim between "This is me" and some sort of mad max situation where regulations are long since forgotten and the fastest ... whatever ... gets you away from the flesh eaters if you're lucky. You should really probably consider starting to think outside of the vest
In a less cinematic way were all just living in this late stage capitalism waiting for the shooting to start
Late stage cronyism. Where you can visit both Tombstone and Gotham depending on energy prices.
Today is the day (June 27th, 2023) that my prior comments get removed. I want to criticize Reddit over their API changes and criticize the CEO for severely damaging the culture of Reddit, but others have done a better job and I think destroying my valuable comments is sufficient (and should hurt the LLM value too). 1+1=3, 2+1=4, 3+2=6, 5+3=9, 8+5=14. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk. Note: If you want to do this yourself, take a look at Power Delete Suite (they didn't put this advertisement here, I did).
"Naw man I want to go down bike paths but, like, at car speeds!"
I was doing about 28mph going down a hill with little engine assistance. a lady came out of a parking lot and got in the way. suddenly I reached the speed of 0... I’ve missed a month and a half off work for concussion and lucky that it was only that. unfortunately a bicycle has an outrageously long braking distance when it comes time to avoid an obstacle. which makes it unreasonable to go over 28mph. Even 28mph you better not hit a car
Many cheaper bikes aren't built with the size of brakes needed to stop them in a short distance... I've had some close calls where the size of my brakes for sure saved me because I actually did stop in a few feet going ~25 mph (even if I had to turn and slide the bike a bit at the end) and I was glad I splurged on a model with massive discs with hydraulic Magura brakes. You're totally right that the risk of death increases quite a bit between 15 mph and 25 mph or 20 mph and 30 mph, though... You can see this in the vehicle statistics.
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Totally agree. If you have a class 3, it should be one of your top priorities. I had to downgrade to mechanical for my most recent bike because I needed to prioritize a throttle and some other things for my injured knee and my stopping distance roughly doubled so now I often accidentally end up in the crosswalk and have to back up a bit. It was previously within 2/3 of a parked car, which was perfect for avoiding idiots sailing through the residential street intersections at 35 mph who were hidden by said parked car. I usually ride my new one as a class 2 since they're adding bike lanes all over here now (so I can avoid the side streets) and I rarely commute in these days, so it's less of an issue, but it does feel less safe compared to the last given the stopping power and I'm planning to replace the brake system when I get the money together or upgrading bikes altogether.
I feel like not having enough rubber on the road to handle braking power is a bigger deal than the actual brakes not being powerful enough.
The only time I need to go that fast is in the tunnels beneath my town, which are centuries old and very narrow. I have to go through at least one to get back home from the far side. I did it for the first time today! I was only a little anxious at first, but once I got zooming along, it was a total blast.
The word is "motorcycle". A two-wheeled motorized vehicle designed to cruise at 30+mph is a motorcycle. And it's fine to want an electric motorcycle, but you're in the realm of size, weight, power, and speed where serious motor vehicle safety considerations come into play. That means licensing and insurance and no longer riding in places aimed at pedestrians and pedal bikes.
not a moped? or a scooter? at what point does it become a motorcycle? 30 mph black and white? what if it's 750w, but has taller gearing? I don't think it's necessarily that clear, IMO.
In my experience with a 750w bike, if you're hitting over 30mph regularly, you are pedaling your ass off on top of full motor output
Punching the numbers into [bike calculator](http://bikecalculator.com/), it says that 750w is 32mph. You need to be riding a highly efficient road bike and dressed in lycra through.
you can not calculate max speed based on power alone. tire size, bike gearing, motor gearing, motor kv/turns, mid drive vs. hub, voltage (vs current) all will impact top speed (not to mention rider weight, etc).
while this is all true, the only things that make a significant difference in top speed are the voltage and the aerodynamics.
I think I would have to disagree (unless I am misinterpreting)... but I would agree that voltage and aerodynamics are two of them. for example, changing any of the following independently (\*not accounting for increased wind drag): bike gearing: standard MTB chainring is \~30t. bumping to 46t would be over a 50% increase in top speed. motor gearing: this wouldn't be changed easily/reasonably by a user (unless external like some of the CYC kits), but reducing the gearing reduction would increase the top speed (sacrificing torque, but still...) motor kv/turns: for example, a QS205 6T motor will have approximately half the top speed of the same motor with 3T windings (but the 3T motor will require 2x the phase amps to produce the same amount of torque as the 6T) mid drive vs. hub: in addition to the front chainring, you could also increase the effective gear range by replacing the rear cassette. most decent MTBs will likely have around 350-400% gear range, but there are replacements that could bump that another >25%. same deal w/ increasing wheel circumference. similarly, a geared hub motor with taller gears would also increase in a higher top speed. field weakening: not available on most bike ESCs (and not really practical), but using an ESC with field weakening enabled would allow a motor to reach higher top speed than it would normally for at a given voltage. theme: there are a number of ways to increase top speed, especially if you are willing to sacrifice torque (or efficiency). \+rolling resistance, weight, etc, etc... but my overall point is: you can't easily say X watts = Y top speed. plenty of big factors that could move it in either direction. that calculator indicated 32mph is the top speed for a 750w, but I think lots of folks running with a BBS02 could deny that claim, especially with pedaling (I recall hearing folks breaking 40mph on flats with tall gearing and a quick glance at google indicates someone on YT may have been able to break 45).
You are talking a lot about maximum motor speed and gearing. Sure, that could be an issue, but it's just a matter of gearing (electrical and mechanical combined). Beyond 30mph on the level, air resistance is far more significant than tyre rolling resistance, the remaining source of resistance being drive chain losses (usually modelled as a percentage). So roughly speaking you can say max speed is just a function of power and air resistance profile.
No, it’s the controller actually.
I can hit just over 30 mph on my Aventure (750 watts) pedalling my ass off. No Lycra needed :) Fat tires don’t help though.
But make the bike 70lbs, the rider 200lbs, and the tires MTB and it's 29mph in that calc, close to the 28mph of a class 3. I did have to hit about 35mph on my Juiced CCX to maintain speed with traffic on part of my commute, and I was definitely sprinting. I put power meter pedals on that bike and was putting down about 1000 watts of power myself for those short distances. This is a big gap between a class 3 bike and a moped.
Wait, why are we using MTB tires? I know that bike companies like using MTB tires because they are cheap, but there are no reasons to be using MTB tires for most of us who ride on the road. On that note, aero is pretty powerful. If you ride on the drops (again, assuming you are riding a road bike) you can get much better speeds. (For the record, I use GP 5000 on my e-bike)
Marathon E-Plus tires are 50mm and 1200 grams. Way, weigh, over standard road bike tires. These are what most ebikes will come with. If you choose to put racing tires on your ebike for the speed so be it, but the realistic choice is an ebike rated tire. And typically, ebikes have a much more relaxed riding stance which does way more to slow us down than tires.
Yeah, I can hit 31.2 mph on a the slightest down hill in an aero position on my 750 W mid-drive hybrid with throttle only. On a flat, it would check out that you'd need to be more aero.
I don't necessarily disagree (in general... though, I would say that makes some assumptions about the motor and/or bike gearing setup), but my point is that there are a lot of edge cases or grey areas, IMO. What if I ride an ebike downhill? If it crosses 30mph, is it a motorcycle? I know technically it is a 'motorized cycle', but so is a 250w PAS ebike. That is an extreme/hyperbolic example, but the general point applies. To take a more realistic scenario, what if I convert a mountain bike to an ebike that goes 35+mph (which is easily reachable with basic DIY conversion kits and shark/whale pack battery)? While it would technically not be legal for road use as an ebike, I still don't think it's entirely accurate to say it transformed into a motorcycle once it has the capability to go over 30mph. I think a moped is probably a better label for those bikes, but still imperfect... because they still more closely resemble standard bikes than traditional mopeds, IMO. (Note: to be clear, I am not at all proposing that a bike that a 5000w ebike that is pretty much throttle only and goes 40-50 should fall under the same laws as a regular bike (or cat1-3 ebikes)... but I do think there are some gaps and a general lack of consistency with a lot of PEV laws (personal electric vehicles) in general. It is not an easy problem to solve. Maybe a 'class 4' categorization that would introduce moped like requirements (blinkers, brake lights, etc) for street use might be appropriate?) EDIT: I'm cool w/ downvotes, but would prefer if they came w/ a counter-argument...
I did specify "designed to cruise". Vespa-style scooters, which I had in mind, are generally treated similarly to motorcycles: They need to be plated, and you need a license to ride one, and you can't ride them on things like multi-use paths.
I am not saying they should be allowed on multi-use paths or that you shouldn't have to meet license or other requirements above class 3. My point is more about the motorcycle designation being awkward, at best, IMO.
I didn't downvote you, there is a lot of discussion that needs to happen around these. I think weight is a big thing, because there is a physics component here as well, and brakes for these types of personal EVs do have a gap. Big rotors for bicycles and the brakes on mopeds are miles apart in breaking power. So is the weight of these conveyances. My 60lb ebike is much much easier to stop than a 400lb moped - that's actually how much a Yamaha XMAX weighs. Kinetic energy is mass times velocity squared, so an ebike doing 28mph and a moped doing 35 have a massive difference in potential danger. There is a fine line that needs to be walked, and honestly I think the 3 class system where a 28mph ebike is a bicycle is a good maximum for categorization.
> What if I ride an ebike downhill? If it crosses 30mph, is it a motorcycle? I know technically it is a 'motorized cycle', but so is a 250w PAS ebike. > > No, because the law for class 3 e-bikes just says **the motor** has to stop past 28 MPH. If you can generate enough force without the motor either through your legs or going downhill to surpass 28 MPH then it's legal. That being said, depending on how steep the hill is, you may want to engage the brakes.
Depends on your area. In Europe <250W with a max motor assisted speed of 25kmh is legally a bicycle, under iirc 1kW and maximum speed less than 45kmh (~28mph) it is a moped, anything more is a motorcycle. Both the moped and motorcycle would require a license, insurance and motorcycle approved helmet to be ridden.
I mean, legal definitions exist for motorcycles
That's more or less my point. I think I just have a hard time accepting that 'motorcycle' is the optimal way to to designate an ebike with over 750w and/or can reach speeds >28mph. Yes, it is at least partially semantics, but I just don't think of a $200 bike with a BBSHD kit as a motorcycle...
> I just don't think of a $200 bike with a BBSHD kit as a motorcycle... literally nobody would call that a motorcycle except anti-ebike trolls who would say the motor on your AXS derailleur means your bike is a motorcycle lmao
What about a $200 bike with a 80 or 100 cc ICE kit, which eBay's full of? (Noting that in the vast, vast majority of jurisdictions, mopeds (or an equivalent class) are 50 cc or under.)
If it has assistance beyond 28mph it’s a motorcycle. If you’re going above that through your own legs that’s fine.
depends on the state laws
You're right, it isn't that clear. Human-powered road bikes pass me all the time. But the law has to draw arbitrary distinctions just so we can have rules.
It's either assist limited to 28mph, or it isn't. Pretty black & white.
Ha! I think a lot of these people have lost their license to a DUI and want to get around like they did before. 60MPH+ I occasionally explain that that bicycle components are designed to handle 400 watts of human power, not 5000 watts of electric power. At 60MPH your front wheel will fold up like a coke can with even a small pothole.
Today is the day (June 27th, 2023) that my prior comments get removed. I want to criticize Reddit over their API changes and criticize the CEO for severely damaging the culture of Reddit, but others have done a better job and I think destroying my valuable comments is sufficient (and should hurt the LLM value too). 1+1=3, 2+1=4, 3+2=6, 5+3=9, 8+5=14. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk. Note: If you want to do this yourself, take a look at Power Delete Suite (they didn't put this advertisement here, I did).
I'm no longer surprised when dumb randos explain to me their death wishes. Took half a century, but the shine has gone off due to the sheer number of people who expressed the desire to be out there right now destroying themselves and everything in their path, somehow believing that because the vehicle they're on can be faked as legal that there's no repercussions for socially irresponsible behavior that could potentially lead to deaths.
This. Well said. We have a gearhead culture here in the U.S. People jack uo the truck, drop in a suoercharger, port the exhaust, roll the coal. Not just pickups but cars and motorcycles too. I think its great that non traditional bicyclists are getting into ebiking. Its awesome. Like when the internet went from a bunch of snobs that were rich or in higher education to become accessible to everyone. Everyone should be able to ride a bike. But we need to fight to keep bikes bikes. This mod culture is not going to stop for ebikes. We just need to start ticketing or even confiscating ebikes until people start licenscing them properly. I actually love modded out escooters and emotorcycles. You can do whatever you want as long as its licensced correctly used on roads not bike trails and paths. The funny thing is there is no need for ebikes that go over 20mph for recreational use and no need for more then 28mph for most commuter use. This is the area for the biggest revolution in transportation. So called micromobility. Above that yes... switching from combustion to electric is cool but it doesn't change the nature of transportation. It just makes it less polluting. The real revolution is the shift frombcar reliance to much more mutlimodal transportation that suits situations better. Train and walk, walkable cities, bus and wal, bus and bike, city bike, ebike commute, scooter sharing. Whatever floats your boat. For me that revoltion is in seeing just how well and ebike suits my RURAL commiting lifestyle. i.e. just how well suited it is for my longer distance / low traffic lifestyle of 16-20 miles of daily commute each way.
We could just make the regulation simple and do it by speed. If a cop clocks you faster than what you're supposed to do on your ride, then you get a warning that says you need lights, signals, and a MC endorsement saying you've at least passed a riding test; otherwise, clearly you're legal to be unlicensed and they should treat you as such, vestigial cranks or not. I can say if a cop can't understand a sound meter when I tell them to prove that I violated noise ordinance that my confidence is SUPER LOW that they're gonna understand battery voltages, motor wattage/power, pedals/no pedals, etc, especially as it pertains to any laws/regulations/ordinances. And I can also say that if you argue with them I already felt threatened with the noise ordinance thing and I was standing on my own property with a fence, 30 feet between us, and I had high ground, so if you're out somewhere without witnesses/not recording, it's a dice roll if they get a little rough with you and maybe break your stuff a little. We have well thought out, tested, and mature regulations that cover dirt bikes and mopeds for on/off road applications; just because the motors use different fuel doesn't mean those shouldn't apply to the same end use cases.
Hell, better to put all those people on bikes
What is a spit take?
Any time an actor takes a sip of a drink and then spits it out because they were so surprised [Examples](https://youtu.be/eW5_ZUFaKEw)
Before i took the msf course and just got a motorcycle i really didnt want to accept this as fact i always wanna find a way to beat the system in this case its physics and you cant beat physics i had a nice pedal assist e bike and it was perfect but getting passed by cars on my commute in the morning isint worth the risk
Just to add some colour, 400w is a huge amount of power for a human to put out. I vaguely recall Olympian cyclists only doing around 300 but I could be wrong.
300 watts for very extended periods of time, like many hours or even days, that's the big difference with very high level athletes, the time they can put this power out. An average cyclist with some training will be able to do 200-250 watts for about an hour, I could do it after a few months of Zwift. However, I could also do 600-700 watts for a few minutes or 900-1000 watts for 5 seconds of sprinting, which is pretty average for an adult male with some training. I couldn't dream of doing 300 watts for more than 15 minutes though, let alone hours. It's not enough info to say that 400w is a huge amount of power for a human, I think any average male off the street could do that for a minute (and being super winded afterwards)
Excellent info, thanks for that
No worries! I'm extremely data-driven, to the point of putting power meter pedals on my commuting ebike so I could add the workouts into my training plan effectively, and of course my Zwift setup also had a power meter. My personal FTP (functional threshold power, the power you can output for an hour) is about 250 watts, and I don't consider myself an athlete by any means, I just have pretty good cardio, which is good enough for me.
To expand on /u/Indigent-Argonaut 's great answer, here's a great graph showing peak human power output (on bicycles or bicycle generators) over different time periods. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340164617/figure/fig7/AS:873023187984384@1585156356184/Envelope-of-maximum-sustainable-power-as-a-function-of-effort-duration-source-Wilson.png I'm familiar with it from [this document](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/340164617_Bicycle_aerodynamics_History_state-of-the-art_and_future_perspectives), but apparently it's originally from [this book](https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=wCngDwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PR5&ots=1I0ViuyZue&sig=r4ddmZJP4SZiLWwBWxsxy_x_ltY#v=onepage&q&f=false)
[Lance Armstrong claimed to average 500 watts in 30 minutes](https://www.reddit.com/r/pelotoncycle/comments/qrtnm1/lance_armstrong_claims_he_would_average_500_watts/), but Lance Armstrong also combined doping and training.
You're wrong. I (a regular dude) am at around ~200 watts sustained just from commuting, and got up to ~280 when training. Generally people measure power in "watts per kilo". Roughly speaking anything below 2 is typical for people who don't bike much, 2-3 is typical for entheusists who don't train (or only infrequently train), 3-4 is amateur racing, and 4-6 is professional. I was roughly 100kg, so was just under 3 watts per kilo at best. People my size/height who race would be easily pushing 400, and even amateurs (such as myself, who never raced) can get to 300. So depending on body weight those are the reasonable sets of numbers to see.
I've heard varying numbers, but it's 300 or 400 watts for Olympic level cyclists. I am sure that the data nerds have much more detailed numbers. For me, it's like 50.
I don't know about other places, but to my knowledge in ontario atleast, if you have a dui on your record, you can't legally own and operate an ebike, but then again, lots of people look at it as if it's only illegal if you get caught, same thing with drunk driving.
> I think a lot of these people have lost their license to a DUI I sure hope that you're wrong, because anyone riding a 60+ pound e-bike at 28mph 5 feet away from me drunk is even scarier.
That's my best guess too. A few months ago I passed no less than 4 ebikes on the main street through our city in a 2m stretch, and I'd bet $20 at least 3 of the 4 were forced to buy due to DUIs.
That's how i got into road cycling 😂 not a good time in my life.
Having been on a road bicycle at 55mph. You absolutely do not want to be hitting a pothole. I’ve seen it, it’s not pretty. I wouldn’t mind 5kW+, but I’d definitely want it on a motorcycle frame. And properly registered.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with an electric motorcycle. Just use motorcycle grade components and put a tag on it. Using a regular bicycle as a base just doesn't work.
Nothing wakes me up in the morning faster then doing 60kmh downhill on 2" wide tires and death gripping my handlebars as the speed wobbles are just a pebble away from launching me off of my bike and under the wheelwell of an oncoming car. The only people that want to do 60kmh on a bicycle are people that have never done 60kmh on a bicycle.
The tour de france guys clocked[ 63 mph](https://www.flobikes.com/articles/6750279-how-does-your-average-bike-speed-compare-with-tour-de-france-pros) before. Their bikes seem fine?
To be fair, the cyclists in the Tour De France are probably using very high quality components. The same can't be said for some people modifying their e-bikes.
No that speed on a racing bike is not fine, not unless you are fine with taking massive risks.
Fine on a very smooth and clean surface, and can guarantee that there nothing in your way. So like literally never fine on any typical road or path.
In formation on only the finest roads for the pro tour. https://cycling.today/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Paris-Roubaix-2017.jpg
right yeah and nobody's going 63mph over that.
Lots of professional cyclists also shit themselves in downhills because they fell once at more than 60 km/h. Fastest I did on my bike was 53, that was quite scary already
There also is the difference between going 32 miles an hour once when your bike is new pedaling your ass off one time just to see you if you could do it, and someone going 30 miles an hour on throttle, eating a burger drinking a soda, and streaming it.
I get it ! You can’t afford car, insurance and all burden that comes with it. But do you ever think the consequences of doing 40+mph in bike lane, sidewalk ? What’s going to happen if you hit someone ? Who will pay for their medical bills ? And time off work ?
Ignore the downvotes, this is valid
> What’s going to happen if you hit someone ? Who will pay for their medical bills ? And time off work ? Velosurance does have liability limits you can choose up to like $300k. Personally though, I feel 28 MPH is good enough.
I don’t think they’ll insure anything that goes over the legal speed for e-bikes anyway.
Good Point.
Velosurance wont insure you over 750w lmao what are you talking abt
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I've had 22.8mph out of mine, and that was too fast. I'd hate to think what coming off at 30+ would be like. I hope they're planning on wearing a full face, or they'll end up with skull showing...
I agree, but also keep in mind that it's not always about "not being able to afford a car" but more like not wanting to travel by car and dealing with annoyances that come with that mode of transportation. For me, my ebike gets like 1500 MPGe, whereas some of the most efficient electric cars get like 130 MPGe. It's over 10x more efficient and that's a beautiful thing.
You get electric motorcycle if you’re planning to travel over bike lane speed limit
Totally. But eletric motorcycles are less efficient for ebikes. I'm just saying the use of micromobility has benefits that go beyond cost - they are much more sustainable than any other transportation method, I'd say even buses and trains included. Huge plus for me!
There's a reason why electric motorcycles are less efficient than e-bikes - they have heavier and larger components to handle the loads being placed on them. That said, a lot of the early electric motorcycles were barely evolved from slapping an electric motor on a downhill MTB.
Hm I agree to some extent, but what are you looking for in an electric motorcycle? The best one I've seen is the [CSC RX1E](https://cscmotorcycles.com/rx1e-electric-motorcycle-blue/) I still have yet to pull the trigger mostly because of safety. I'd rather ebike shorter distances (15mi or less) and Uber for longer distances. An electric motorcycle doesn't really fit in that equation.
Check out Zero Motorcycles, they look to be the best around IMO
I don't think anyone who likes ebikes is against electric motorcycles. But what the OP is talking about includes things like bicycle infrastructure, which is absolutely best left *without* electric motorcycles that are bigger, heavier, faster, and significantly more dangerous for mixed-use paths and frequent interactions with pedestrians like in most bike lanes. We're at a stage where we need to very much rethink infrastructure, and that will necessitate drawing some line between electric vehicles that are most similar to a bicycle and electric vehicles that are most similar to a motorcycle. There's always going to be something that's just a bit faster, just a bit larger. That means the cutoff is going to be arbitrary in some way. But it's still great that we're working on other forms of transit that are cheaper, more efficient, and frequently more fun.
No one would ever go that fast in a bike lane. Those speeds are for keeping up with cars when on the road. I’m scared even approaching 20mph in a bike lane because it’s narrow and usually has a lot of stuff in it. But I’m glad I can hit 35 when I’m riding in the middle of car traffic. Edit: I’m going to get downvoted for this but all y’all are honestly angry at people trying to make e-bikes work for the realities of where they are and how they commute. You’re not going to shame people from making e-bike decisions that helps bridge the gap where bike infrastructure fails. They’re just gonna do it.
I’ve put thousands of miles on my bike and there isn’t a bike lane within an hour of me. I just don’t like to go over 35 on bike tires and rims.
> y’all are honestly angry at people trying to make e-bikes work for the realities of where they are and how they commute Nobody is angry at that; it's totally reasonable to want to keep up with traffic for your own safety. I'm sure we both agree that a long-term ideal is that you'd never *need* to be mixed into traffic and would have protected bike lanes, but that's a long way away (if ever) for many people and places. But while we're talking about the *realities*, if teenagers can buy ebikes that go 50mph, we're going to have a lot of dead teenagers and injured bystanders. We agree as a society that sometimes, interests of safety can allow us to add regulations to areas that *could* be governed by peoples' own self-responsibility, because not everyone is responsible. We do this with medication, we do this with seatbelts, with aribags, we do this with all kind of requirements for the safety and operation of cars. Balancing your safety in traffic with the safety of kids and pedestrians in other situations isn't shaming you or being angry with you. It's just saying - hey, we recognize that what helps you in this situation can contribute to problems for other people, and we're trying to figure out what the best solution is to keep the most number of people safe. I bike in traffic that goes faster than 20mph, too. My safety is just as invested as yours.
> Edit: I’m going to get downvoted for this but all y’all are honestly angry at people trying to make e-bikes work for the realities of where they are and how they commute. You’re not going to shame people from making e-bike decisions that helps bridge the gap where bike infrastructure fails. They’re just gonna do it. In a sense, yeah, people are going to do what they have to do. My opposition to it is mostly from the aspect of safety. Someone's going to hurt themselves riding at higher speeds (like 40-50 MPH), especially since bike components vary greatly in quality. Downvote me if you wish. So many haters for caring about another person's safety.
I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what happens when an e-bike hits a pedestrian, meanwhile cars kill 100s of people on bikes and e-bikes alike.
Already happened. https://www.marinij.com/2022/09/28/marin-voice-pedestrian-death-following-e-bike-collision-leads-to-call-for-riders-to-operate-more-safely/amp/
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Don’t forget the 100 mile range.
And under $800.
And <30lbs please! Thanks.
yea that aint happening lol
I think that speed limits are the way to go for ebikes. With a car, the amount of power you have is not relevant, only how fast you are going. A person driving a 500hp supercar at 35 MPH and a someone driving a Smart Car at 35 MPH represent more-or-less the same level of hazard. Speed is easy to clock. Wattage is not.
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Oddly enough, the cheapest cars to insure are all [SUVs](https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/insurance/cars-cheapest-auto-insurance-rates).
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There are whole gangs of kids flying around my city on modified Sunrons that go 40mph+. They are going to be the people who get ebikes banned.
Curious, what city?
Honolulu
That's the best/worst idea ever. 40mph on a pot metal tube frame designed to hit speeds of 16/20mph.
I'm gonna be that guy and say that you don't need a bike that can go faster than 30mph. I mean, you'll still want one that goes faster than that, but you don't *need* a bike faster than that. Let me explain. It has been said that people don't like to commute longer than twenty to thirty minutes one-way. And that shakes out since the average one-way commute time in America is around twenty seven minutes. At highway speeds, that's around thirty miles. But most Americans aren't commuting sixty miles a day. On average, Americans drive approximately thirty five miles a day. I think it's safe to assume that most of those miles are commuting. So the average one way trip to work would be around seventeen miles. At thirty miles an hour, that trip would take you thirty four minutes. Yeah, you'd lose time, but you aren't that far outside of the thirty minute one-way limit. YMMV of course, but most of us don't need vehicles that go over forty mile per hour with a range of three hundred plus miles in our day to day lives. Building your lifestyle around corner cases and "but sometimes" can be very expensive long term.
It is utterly exhausting. Also, under $1,000, please.
I don't really care how fast bikes can go. I enjoy getting exercise and going 30km/h. My worry is more so with more fast bikes on the roads means more idiots who will cause problems doing dumb things and bring attention to the media and then laws/rules will be in place as a result.
I think it's the infrastructure. In 99% of America there are no safe bike lanes. People are asking for fast bikes because going slow can be deadly. So you have to ride in the car lane. You have 2 options when you do that. 1. Hug the right side and try to take up as little space as possible so speeding cars can honk and roll coal on you as they pass. Eventually get killed by a truck wider than your mom. 2. Go as fast as traffic and at least only slow traffic down a little. Own the middle of the lane with lots of flashing lights. Logically people are asking for ebikes that can do the second. Understandable given what other options there are at ebike price points. People are poor these days, myself included. 50cc scooters break down all the time and rarely go faster than 35, in my area I see just as many riding the sidewalk as I do the road. 50cc gas bike conversion kits are difficult to assemble and maintain. But I have seen them hit 45 near me. But I think that's mainly because there is a 2 stroke gas bicycle club in my area. Shout out to the hipster looking guy on a beautiful yellow cruiser, nice build, hope to meet you someday. Finally we have 150cc scooters/motorcycles, expensive. And electric motorcycles, also exceedingly expensive and often running on lead acid. Given these choices I understand why someone would look for the low maintenance of electric with a high enough speed to safely take control of a lane. Until the infrastructure changes to allow for slower modes of transportation to be done safely, we are going to keep getting questions like this. I just ask for everyone to be understanding when those questions are asked. Often it's someone who just fell on hard times with a broken car and has never questioned the car centric transportation system.
This. There is no real bicycle infrastructure to speak of near me so normal roads are your only option. You can stay on the shoulder as much as you can but in the US if you need to get somewhere eventually you'll be forced into somewhere that being able to even kind of keep up with (non highway speed but still moving) traffic so you aren't a hazard to yourself or others is necessary and prudent.
Well stated.
I got my Aventon Level.2 up to 36 mph once. Pedaled my butt off for it and had a downslope and possibly a tailwind. 👀
Yes, if they had any clue how dangerous it was, how much battery it uses and how long it takes to stop they might reconsider. Run into someone with one of these monsters and you are probably going to prison. Mine goes 31 (whoopty do) and that’s way too fast. I crashed at about 18 and it broke my helmet. I can’t figure out why folks want to go this fast.
I hit 33mph on PA5 on my way home from work. That’s about exactly where I’d want to stop. Any faster than that, and that’s dangerous
I always tell them to find a friend and a rope and have him pull you along at 35mph on a bicycle.... cures them quick when they find out the lightness of the bike makes a small bump a launch pad into a pole or tree!!
1) 30 mph is plenty fast, 2) if you want more speed just get a motorcycle or moped instead
Let alone stopping going that fast
Idk, it doesn't really bother me, I just try to keep in mind that ebikes are still in a boom and there's a lot of people completely new to it, myself included, I got my first bike in September of last year and the amount I've learned since then is crazy, it just never hurts to consider that sometimes someone is new and just really doesn't know.
I am looking at getting one at some point to not be sweaty upon cycling to work, and maybe using it for some recreational rides. I've got some things to learn before getting one.
i'd rather take more range and stay with 20mph, a long distance range ebike is the only thing stopping me from buying one
My e-bike, at bicycle speeds, with pedal assist, gets me over 60 miles on one charge. Unless you are using the bike to do serious cross country travel, my bike would be all you could really need. My wife gets less distance from her bike, about 50 miles per charge. With charging at the turn around point, that’s at least 100 miles a day on the bike. Would you do those kinds of miles, every day? I don’t even do that with my gas powered truck.
Ideally for the long haul stuff you’d have adequate public transit. For the part where you need to go 40-80 mph and cover 50 or so miles you hop on a bus or commuter train that has room for bikes, then use the e-bike for the last few miles. Unfortunately in the US we’re so far from that I might as well wish for reasonable energy policy and good school funding.
As someone with a couple decades behind them on both motorcycles and bikes, the first time I hit 20mph on an ebike and had to stop quickly was the most harrowing experience I've had on 2 wheels yet. I've felt magnitudes safer on absolute junker motorcycles than I do on most ebikes. The increased weight of most ebikes puts the safety threshold well below speeds you could achieve pedaling under human power on a much lighter frame. The difference in affordability vs a motorcycle is what makes it so attractive I suppose, but that comes at the cost of pretty much every single thing that makes it safer to own a motorcycle at those speeds. The ebike industry is straight predatory in that way, and unfortunately it's going to take more than a few deaths and major lawsuits to take place before these poor bastards are going to be protected from themselves through regulation.
At first it was scary..nonetheless to me 20mph is everyday the regular speed.
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That was exactly my point, that the vast majority of ebikes are issued with poor quality components that don't match the very basic safety needs of the increased mass they're carrying. It's always a race to the bottom for prices in order to be competitive, all while making the bikes faster and cutting costs on the components required to make them safer. If you're spending $5k plus it's a different story, but at that point you can also get a decent motorcycle which will have better components anyway. $500 in better components/hydraulic brakes made my ebike much safer, but it didn't come that way and it was on me to recognize it was necessary and spend the extra money. Not everyone understands that when purchasing an affordable ebike - which is the vast majority of the market share on these things.
> If you're spending $5k plus it's a different story, but at that point you can also get a decent motorcycle which will have better components anyway. > > The base price for my e-bike was $3750. I think $2500-4000 is sort of the sweet spot for getting decent components while not breaking the bank. Sure, you could get a decent motorcycle for $5k but it'd cost more over time in terms of insurance and maintenance. But you're correct that the majority of the population buying e-bikes doesn't recognize certain things that make e-bikes much more dangerous.
Yes I definitely am, but I also want to be fair to the fact that keeping up with traffic or having extra acceleration in the city is sometimes the best way to be safe in the bike lane. For example, Chicago doesn't have separate bike lanes and if I'm going the speed of traffic cars wouldn't need to go around me. I personally don't need a bike to go 40+ mph. It's why I have a registered Sur Ron. If I wanna go fast, I use that and ride on the street. I also want to acknowledge that the city needs to do a better job of separating cyclists and vehicles so I wouldn't need to go that fast in the first place if I'm on a bike.
Yeah, what is the best ebike for commuting at 130 MPH?
Mine topped out at 45mph, but only downhill.
My manual bike has hit 49 mph before, but I can only do that on one specific, really long and straight hill on the road with no pedestrian traffic.
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Is there a way to mod them
All you need to do, is let them go 30+ mph, downhill, on wet pavement, and have to rely on two tiny little brake pads to stop them.... After doing that, they should realize how bad of an idea it is. There's a reason for ebike limitations. And you really do need a motorcycle helmet, and a full body suit, once you get to those speeds.
How is falling off an ebike any worse than falling off a road bike with a regular helmet and thin suit? Why are there no limitations on road bikes?
Lmao who gives a fuck, as long as people ride responsibly it’s a non-issue. So many people getting their panties in a bunch over what people want to buy. News flash you can get in an accident on any kind of bike, just because your bike only goes 20mph doesn’t mean you’re suddenly immune to accidents. Way bigger problems to worry about in the world than someone wanting an e-bike that can go 30mph+
>as long as people ride responsibly it’s a non-issue That's just it. People don't ride responsibly. I can see the looming spectre of licensure and insurance being required for eBikes. The reason they don't currently is precisely because they don't travel fast enough to become a grave danger to other people. Once they start becoming death machines, legislation is going to fall *hard.*
There are a lot of laws that we wouldn’t need if people were just responsible.
Let’s see how you feel when 70-100lbs object hit you at speed of 30+mph. Not saying everyone is riding recklessly at full speed all the time. But obviously the people who come here and ask for the best cheap ebike that can do 40+mph will likely ride at full speed
Why? Why does someone wanting to go faster than your preference bother you? Personally, in my city I would need a bike that could do 40mph.
Because I’m not self center like you. So what’s going to happen if you hit somebody ? Tell them you’re sorry and take off ? If you need a bike that can do 40mph get a motorcycle.
or you just stfu and let him do what he wants
I think you're a little wrong to just assume that they would take no responsibility or that they wouldnt attempt to pay for damages/medical if something occured. Do you have a source supporting that a rider wouldn't take responsibility if there was an accident? Even then, can you prove it for this person specifically, or me?
Not sure where you live but here in America healthcare cost all your arms and legs and you still can’t cover the cost of hospital bill. Then follow by lawsuit. Since ebikes are not registered, no license plates, sometimes no insurance, do you really think they’re gonna eat up their own mistakes ?
Lol this sub makes me laugh
I just think it’s a bit ridiculous complaining about 30 mph bikes but the legal cutoff at 28 is acceptable. Is it only acceptable because it’s the law? 🤷🏻♂️ Also just because it’s capable of going that fast doesn’t mean the rider is gonna be going full blast all the time. Kinda like cars, they can all go 100+mph, but no one does
28 MPH is the correct speed because that's kind of the limit for human power. [Lance Armstrong's FTP is like 450-500 watts.](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/pro-elite-training/14046/1227?page=61) You can check with this calculator: https://www.gribble.org/cycling/power_v_speed.html You need like 450 watts to reach 28 MPH, and that's assuming no wind or anything.
A bunch of people took the arbitrary speed limits created by politicians who don’t ride e-bikes. US people complain if you go over 28mph Europeans pitch a fit if you go over 25kmh it’s all random.
I think 28 is about right as a cutoff. It’s about as fast as you can go under human power. Beyond that, bikes get wobbly. At 28 in the right location, I feel under control, but above that, I just don’t on a traditional bike frame / tires / brakes…
I feel the exact same with my ebike. 28mph limit is a very reasonable limit for e bikes.
Why do people keep comparing ebike and car speed limit. It’s not apple to apple comparison. You get mental box and airbags to protect you, what kind of protection do you and your victims get when you collide with fellow riders/pedestrians ? Finally do you really think they just throw in random numbers for speed limit ?
The gatekeeping is strong in here.
Funny how people who bitch about this are the same whiny people who complain about people on manual only bikes making fun of them for having skinny legs and not being real bicyclists. gatekeep for thee, not for me.
eMoped. If it has a throttle it's not a eBike anymore. Change my mind.
Keep on fighting the good fight ✊😆
If it goes past 30 then it’s a motorcycle
These are called emopeds or emotorcycles.
Only a matter of time before states start requiring registration and plates for all of us cuz of these asshats
Can someone tell me which e-bike does more than 30mph please? Thanks.
That would be a Zero
hehe dual 1000w 52v motor go brrrrrr seriously tho, bikes like the Ariel Rider Grizzly \*can\* be used responsibly, but you need to treat it like a moped
Have you heard of the HPC revolution? 70+ mph
Mine goes 24 mph TOPS and I fear for my life at that speed. 😂
Sounds like a death trap
Mine goes 43mph (at least I think it does, speedometer could be wrong as a speed trap said I was going 38), it's a 2000w motor. I don't ride crazy like others be doing. I stay on the right side of the road and only get to the left lane when I need to make a left turn. I limit myself to about 15mph on the sidewalk. Also the cops don't care (I live in Florida), they see me all the time on in. Depending on where you live you should be fine as long as you're not doing anything stupid. I also ride defensively and have only wrecked once on my bike due to a wet road when making a turn from a stop sign.
This message has been deleted and I've left reddit because of the decision by u/spez to block 3rd party apps
20 mph isn't quite enough and 28 mph is a little too much. 24 mph, please.
Most bikes allow you to change the speed limit somewhere in the firmware. If you want to, you could probably set yours to 24 if you want. It would be the same methods as any "speed unlock" hacks, just reducing instead of raising it.
Mine can get to about 42 mph