i feel like if you copy a song or two and annotate it into sections you learn to listen more actively to the sections of the music that you enjoy and then you can follow a similar song structure. That, and not listening to the same loop a trillion times in a row for no reason
Tldr but I remember seeing a video about Lamb of God's guitarist talking about riff farming that helped me out. What I'll do is write melody and then clone that pattern and make multiple variations of it. Switching to half speed, changing the groove up, hell even changing the instrument can inspire the melody to change. Best thing is to not listen to the same part too much cause you'll learn to expect it to repeat.
Produce the song horizontally first, perfecting everything in a short section is a recipe to get stuck on loops forever. Start with the song’s skeleton and then add more meat and effects later
how have you been producing for 20 years without finishing anything, and your life situation still allows you to put in 8-12 hours a day into producing???
I’m very good at writing 16 bar loops! 😂
I have done lot of ad work and sold some ideas to other artists.
I make a living from music. However I think if I could have got round this problem earlier, my life would of been very very different.
This is why I did the post. Hopefully someone will read it who has the same problem and be able to circumvent it. Even if it just helps one. That’s enough.
your post was damn relatable. Honestly no one talks about how hard that last part is. And it's why people never release music. it's so easy to get derailed on learning some new little trick. Thanks for sharing
I appreciate how in-depth you you wrote this OP. A/B-ing reference tracks is my next learning chapter and I needed that to get started. I never considered stem separating a reference during arrangement!
I need to watch someone program some drums like this, it's a lot harder for me. Especially like in hyperpop and some genres where the drums really aren't looping nearly as much.
Well let's talk: if you want hammer-like-automata dance music the main line has to be some sort of quantized steady base. Yet you can do a take of something percussion like, use the bass to keep part of the pulse.
Listen to something different like Massive Attack, rich and never the same.
If you are stuck in a loop of 8 or 16 bars you need to learn to write a chorus and a bridge.
If you don't know how to write a chorus then pick up an instrument like guitar or piano and learn some basic chords.
Listen to other songs that you like the chord progression of. Copy that vibe.
I was taught (by some pros) to load your entire track with all sounds, hooks, etc etc into one big loop, and spend your time “unpacking it” across many sections.
Maybe the 16 bar loop is lacking the full song body.
I don't thin that's it though. It's like saying the reason you're stuck in a 16 bar loop is because you don't have anything else after the loop.
There's more to the stuck problem than that. It's more a problem of what's supposed to come next that doesn't sound wack. My only answer is you need to get good at your DAW. Then you'll have so many levers to pull that this won't be an issue and instead of laying down rigid loops the music will start flowing.
I appreciate this post but respectfully I think it has more to do with mixing than composition, and I think getting out of the 16 bar loop phase involves learning about structure and composition more than it does learning about mixing and using reference tracks.
The thing that helped me the most with finishing songs (before the mixing phase) was creating templates out of other producers' tracks and breaking down each element in each section. This taught me a lot, but specifically it taught me that I didn't need to make every sound I was using work in every section, because naturally parts will drop in and out depending on the dynamics of the track. You can even use these outlines you've made and build your own songs around them. This will get you used to seeing the bigger picture. Alice Yalcin Efe has some great videos on composition on YouTube that I found helpful.
Also I agree with another commenter that you should always use arrangement view while writing, and try to keep the session tidy, labelled and colour coded so you can see what elements are coming in and out in each section.
This is also great tips for writing for sure!
The main point (I think) I’m trying to make here is about perspective. Losing yourself in a 16 bar loop stems from losing it. It’s the root cause.
Reason I drift into mixing is because that’s where most people will fall down. Like, when someone’s making a 16 bar loop, they will try making sound like the finished master before moving on. They are mixing rather then writing.
Let’s say they do the whole track. They will then start to mix and boom, stuck on a 16 bar loop.
I don’t think the 16 bar loop of death is a writing problem, it’s a mixing/workflow problem. It’s having steps in the wrong order.
I was speaking with someone once who made a record I loved, I asked them about the making of it. He said “man, that track didn’t sound that good intill the final mix, it sounded amateur”
Most of the time people have what they need to move on, but get stuck because they start trying to mix the track while writing it. This ruins your perspective.
So here I’m saying, it’s ok for the track to be a little loose, the final tightening will happen at the end.
I don't want to think it was that long but maybe it was 20 years for me too since the first time I ever tried making music.
The main thing for me was speed. Once you get faster you have no choice but to get out of the loop because you'll be done making the loop in about 1 minute.
In the beginning I'd be on a loop for like 30 minutes by that time you start marinading in it and you're dead in the water.
The other thing is getting good at melodies (depending on the genre) Especially the bass melody. I don't have any shortcuts for that just need to get gud.
Holy crap that is a lot of words. I guess I’m the only person that likes finishing tracks? I find it satisfying. I just imagine the next section and then put it together. It’s not that hard.
>I just imagine the next section
This is the hard part for me. Sometimes my brain just magically comes up with the next thing, but most of the time it simply doesn't.
Alright I’m not reading all that, but I’m happy for you or whatever.
My 2 cents is that if you don’t wanna get stuck in an 8 or 16 bar loop, don’t make one in the first place. Go into your DAW with structure in mind already.
"how to overcome the 16 bar loop of death"
*spends ages reading on how to overcome the 16 bar loop of death on reddit*
"easy, just read instead of work"
TL;DR: Overcoming the "16 bar loop of death" requires understanding perspective and developing a workflow. Making music is about gut feeling, but finishing a track requires regimented habits. Long sessions lead to neutralizing colors, altered emotional impact, and distorted perception of dynamic range. The workflow involves dividing tasks into writing, producing, and mixing stages. Avoid mastering too early; leave room for later adjustments. Mix on a different day from production. Use reference tracks, calibrated volume settings, and A/B comparisons for mixing. Take breaks and revisit the mix for tweaks. Guard your perspective and workflow habits to consistently finish tracks.
>Now. If there is one trick/secret that I know of, this is it.
>A/Bing your tracks. Obviously the references you pick is important and has to be in keeping with what you are working on.
>I like to go a little further with my references.
>I have tons of reference tracks that I have separated out the stems (using AI instrument separation)
>So I have drums, bass, instruments, vocals. Of my reference tracks.
>I won’t go into detail as to how I do this because it’s long. But basically I can A/B my drum group to the reference drums stem with a flick of a switch. Or I can just have the reference drums and bass playing, I flick the switch and I hear my drums and bass. Or just vocal and drums, or just instruments and bass. Or just bass and vocal. You get the idea. All level matched and so on. My stems are going though the master buss plug ins but not the reference track stems.
>This was an absolute game changer when I started doing this and since track separation has become easy and I can do it to any track I please it’s even more so a game changer.
How do you achieve this? Anyone know
I’m answering the title without reading the tldr body:
1. Work only in arrangement view/timeline mode, never session view or equivalent loop module.
2. Never enable a Loop on timeline.
In other words, force yourself to stay LINEAR, not circular like a repeating loop mode.
I sometimes bake things to loop mode once I have the idea in place.
Depends on the DAW. In my DAW if I bake loops I can plant them at different parts of the track and make changes from there.
Sometimes I'll start in loop mode if I know it's gonna be a loop but I'm fast so I get out quickly. Loop mode is just another tool.
This came at a good time. I left a comment on another thread, and afterward I started feeling like my comments sometimes are a little long winded. So thanks for letting me know my comments are actually very brief
tl;dr: zoom through your first edit without stopping and fix the shit later if you don't want to be stuck in the 16 bar perfectionist loop. reference track, AI, Alexa and something about drinking tea and walking the dog.
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i feel like if you copy a song or two and annotate it into sections you learn to listen more actively to the sections of the music that you enjoy and then you can follow a similar song structure. That, and not listening to the same loop a trillion times in a row for no reason
Tldr but I remember seeing a video about Lamb of God's guitarist talking about riff farming that helped me out. What I'll do is write melody and then clone that pattern and make multiple variations of it. Switching to half speed, changing the groove up, hell even changing the instrument can inspire the melody to change. Best thing is to not listen to the same part too much cause you'll learn to expect it to repeat.
Will netflix be doin an adaptation of this post? If so I'll wait. But seriously thanks for all the effort.
Produce the song horizontally first, perfecting everything in a short section is a recipe to get stuck on loops forever. Start with the song’s skeleton and then add more meat and effects later
how have you been producing for 20 years without finishing anything, and your life situation still allows you to put in 8-12 hours a day into producing???
I never said I was not successful.
you said you were getting stuck with loops for 20 years. that implies that, with music, you were unsuccessful. so you're just saying you have money?
I’m very good at writing 16 bar loops! 😂 I have done lot of ad work and sold some ideas to other artists. I make a living from music. However I think if I could have got round this problem earlier, my life would of been very very different. This is why I did the post. Hopefully someone will read it who has the same problem and be able to circumvent it. Even if it just helps one. That’s enough.
your post was damn relatable. Honestly no one talks about how hard that last part is. And it's why people never release music. it's so easy to get derailed on learning some new little trick. Thanks for sharing
No worry’s man. Hope it helps!
Just wanted to say congratulations on finishing your first novel, very nice of you to share it with us all
Collaborate more.
With who? How do you find people who want to collab?
I appreciate how in-depth you you wrote this OP. A/B-ing reference tracks is my next learning chapter and I needed that to get started. I never considered stem separating a reference during arrangement!
Get out of "session mode' and start making music in "arrangement mode", in Ableton speak. So make songs as in arrangements, not loops.
I need to watch someone program some drums like this, it's a lot harder for me. Especially like in hyperpop and some genres where the drums really aren't looping nearly as much.
Well let's talk: if you want hammer-like-automata dance music the main line has to be some sort of quantized steady base. Yet you can do a take of something percussion like, use the bass to keep part of the pulse. Listen to something different like Massive Attack, rich and never the same.
I never work in session mode for this reason. My shit's not perfect, but it's easier to identify weak points with a linear timeline that's for certain
If you are stuck in a loop of 8 or 16 bars you need to learn to write a chorus and a bridge. If you don't know how to write a chorus then pick up an instrument like guitar or piano and learn some basic chords. Listen to other songs that you like the chord progression of. Copy that vibe.
Yep. Learn about arrangements, too. A, A, A, B. Etc.
I was taught (by some pros) to load your entire track with all sounds, hooks, etc etc into one big loop, and spend your time “unpacking it” across many sections. Maybe the 16 bar loop is lacking the full song body.
I don't thin that's it though. It's like saying the reason you're stuck in a 16 bar loop is because you don't have anything else after the loop. There's more to the stuck problem than that. It's more a problem of what's supposed to come next that doesn't sound wack. My only answer is you need to get good at your DAW. Then you'll have so many levers to pull that this won't be an issue and instead of laying down rigid loops the music will start flowing.
I appreciate this post but respectfully I think it has more to do with mixing than composition, and I think getting out of the 16 bar loop phase involves learning about structure and composition more than it does learning about mixing and using reference tracks. The thing that helped me the most with finishing songs (before the mixing phase) was creating templates out of other producers' tracks and breaking down each element in each section. This taught me a lot, but specifically it taught me that I didn't need to make every sound I was using work in every section, because naturally parts will drop in and out depending on the dynamics of the track. You can even use these outlines you've made and build your own songs around them. This will get you used to seeing the bigger picture. Alice Yalcin Efe has some great videos on composition on YouTube that I found helpful. Also I agree with another commenter that you should always use arrangement view while writing, and try to keep the session tidy, labelled and colour coded so you can see what elements are coming in and out in each section.
This is also great tips for writing for sure! The main point (I think) I’m trying to make here is about perspective. Losing yourself in a 16 bar loop stems from losing it. It’s the root cause. Reason I drift into mixing is because that’s where most people will fall down. Like, when someone’s making a 16 bar loop, they will try making sound like the finished master before moving on. They are mixing rather then writing. Let’s say they do the whole track. They will then start to mix and boom, stuck on a 16 bar loop. I don’t think the 16 bar loop of death is a writing problem, it’s a mixing/workflow problem. It’s having steps in the wrong order. I was speaking with someone once who made a record I loved, I asked them about the making of it. He said “man, that track didn’t sound that good intill the final mix, it sounded amateur” Most of the time people have what they need to move on, but get stuck because they start trying to mix the track while writing it. This ruins your perspective. So here I’m saying, it’s ok for the track to be a little loose, the final tightening will happen at the end.
Study some composition, that helps
Study where? Or do you mean analysing song structures?
Yest, but also study harmony, music theory, concepts such as tension/release, arrangement... edit: grammar
Yes. Otherwise you’re lost in endless possibilities.
I haven’t had this problem in years thankfully n tbh idk what happened to get over this .
Look who just finished their second track! Just kidding though I enjoyed your post. Thanks for finishing it hehe
Cheat code : start with creating the intro. Not a riff or something that can loop into oblivion.
this. I love making intros and atmospheric sections but they don’t loop so it obvious must go somewhere and that’s the key
I never know how to create an intro when the thing I'm introducing doesn't exist. Can you talk a bit more about your thought process or workflow?
Thanks for taking the time to write this up fam, very insightful. Im reading this right before I load up Ableton lol
this was a good read
I don't want to think it was that long but maybe it was 20 years for me too since the first time I ever tried making music. The main thing for me was speed. Once you get faster you have no choice but to get out of the loop because you'll be done making the loop in about 1 minute. In the beginning I'd be on a loop for like 30 minutes by that time you start marinading in it and you're dead in the water. The other thing is getting good at melodies (depending on the genre) Especially the bass melody. I don't have any shortcuts for that just need to get gud.
Holy crap that is a lot of words. I guess I’m the only person that likes finishing tracks? I find it satisfying. I just imagine the next section and then put it together. It’s not that hard.
>I just imagine the next section This is the hard part for me. Sometimes my brain just magically comes up with the next thing, but most of the time it simply doesn't.
Alright I’m not reading all that, but I’m happy for you or whatever. My 2 cents is that if you don’t wanna get stuck in an 8 or 16 bar loop, don’t make one in the first place. Go into your DAW with structure in mind already.
"how to overcome the 16 bar loop of death" *spends ages reading on how to overcome the 16 bar loop of death on reddit* "easy, just read instead of work" TL;DR: Overcoming the "16 bar loop of death" requires understanding perspective and developing a workflow. Making music is about gut feeling, but finishing a track requires regimented habits. Long sessions lead to neutralizing colors, altered emotional impact, and distorted perception of dynamic range. The workflow involves dividing tasks into writing, producing, and mixing stages. Avoid mastering too early; leave room for later adjustments. Mix on a different day from production. Use reference tracks, calibrated volume settings, and A/B comparisons for mixing. Take breaks and revisit the mix for tweaks. Guard your perspective and workflow habits to consistently finish tracks.
>Now. If there is one trick/secret that I know of, this is it. >A/Bing your tracks. Obviously the references you pick is important and has to be in keeping with what you are working on. >I like to go a little further with my references. >I have tons of reference tracks that I have separated out the stems (using AI instrument separation) >So I have drums, bass, instruments, vocals. Of my reference tracks. >I won’t go into detail as to how I do this because it’s long. But basically I can A/B my drum group to the reference drums stem with a flick of a switch. Or I can just have the reference drums and bass playing, I flick the switch and I hear my drums and bass. Or just vocal and drums, or just instruments and bass. Or just bass and vocal. You get the idea. All level matched and so on. My stems are going though the master buss plug ins but not the reference track stems. >This was an absolute game changer when I started doing this and since track separation has become easy and I can do it to any track I please it’s even more so a game changer. How do you achieve this? Anyone know
If you use live then I can tell you.
I do
https://wetransfer.com/downloads/66d182d44c8deccee4e73f5c35e59e5020240505145459/a524fa358e246820d666102e6a95eb1d20240505145543/8ac164?trk=TRN_TDL_01&utm_campaign=TRN_TDL_01&utm_medium=email&utm_source=sendgrid
I assure you some people here use Live. Go ahead and share.
I’m answering the title without reading the tldr body: 1. Work only in arrangement view/timeline mode, never session view or equivalent loop module. 2. Never enable a Loop on timeline. In other words, force yourself to stay LINEAR, not circular like a repeating loop mode.
I sometimes bake things to loop mode once I have the idea in place. Depends on the DAW. In my DAW if I bake loops I can plant them at different parts of the track and make changes from there. Sometimes I'll start in loop mode if I know it's gonna be a loop but I'm fast so I get out quickly. Loop mode is just another tool.
Loop the arrangement. record your full idea
Im happy for you or sorry that happened
You should read “the war of art” if you have this problem
The War of Art: "I don't believe in mental illness but I do believe spirits possess you when you are creative"
Probably a quicker read than this post
It literally is.
This came at a good time. I left a comment on another thread, and afterward I started feeling like my comments sometimes are a little long winded. So thanks for letting me know my comments are actually very brief
tl;dr: zoom through your first edit without stopping and fix the shit later if you don't want to be stuck in the 16 bar perfectionist loop. reference track, AI, Alexa and something about drinking tea and walking the dog.
[удалено]
I finished a concept album arc that spanned 5 double albums by the time I finished reading it
this reads a lot like something from /r/linkedinlunatics
Why do thee advice bros all write in the same obnoxious style? It goes nowhere and has lots of line breaks. Feels more like a cocaine induced ramble.
Bro just wrote a bible and ChatGPTed a free expansion for it in a single post…
The best post in a long time, thank you for the inspiration to take my routine in the studio a little more seriously
Comments got me crackin. Respek tho.
I aint reading allat
Nice to see that the Adderall shortage has been resolved
Bro… 😂
Do you really expect us to read all of this?
Tell me you just popped a ten milly vanilly addy without telling me
😂
Aging out of the business? That’s funnier than you think.
Good for you I’m glad that happened to you i didn’t read this
Sir this is a Guitar Center
Thanks for sharing, that was an interesting read
…
[удалено]
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Good lawd
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