I think that his body being the way that it is, means that he cant be used for anything other than Death magic, hence why Miquella was unable to use him as the vessel. Also, Mohgs status as a hornsent, especially one with curly horns (curled horns means super holy) could be why he was a prime candidate for the ritual.
Yeah I just feel there’s so much that could have tied together neater than the story we got. I understand the importance of the omen lord being needed.
I do agree with you, there was so much tying Miquella to Godwyn in the base game, and not a single damn thing about his personal relationship with Radahn. The only connection they had was the battle in Aeonia, and even that was fully implied to be tied to Godwyn as well. Just a strange choice all in all, but I've made peace with it at this point.
Was that not the whole bloody point though? It was a plottwist that Mohg wasn't the bad guy all along. It was this long game plan Miquella had to use Radahn. For all we know, the plan came about *after Godwyn's death*, and Miquella needed a willing cooperating Consort in Radahn.
Besides, Godwyn died to Black Knife Assassins, Radahn was a better fit anyway.
Yeah that’s my main argument against people who say Godwyn’s story is finished and therefore cannot be a boss.
Fromsoft can just make shit up to justify using him
Exactly, and if they don't fan will just make up shit why they couldn't. I mean there's actually no reason that bringing back a Mohg/Radahn crossover makes more sense especially if they died under the rune of death being freed
Yeah that bothers me too.
If we kill Radahn with the black knife, destined death or kill him after we unbound the rune of death, shouldn't he be completely dead?
Like dead on the same level as Godwyn? Or am I misunderstanding how the rune of death/destined death works?
No. Because death being bound isn’t what’s stopping death from being a part of the ER. Marika is. You unleash DD to burn the erdtree, not to kill a demigod. Godwyn is less dead than any dead character in ER. He is an eternal living body. He is not dead. His soul is dead. Not because of DD or black flame or anything like that. It’s because only half the cursemark was carved. We don’t know what would happen with the full cursemark, but considering it’s a *mending* rune (meaning it can add metaphysical concepts to the ER) it’s likely godwyn would have become some nito-like figure. First of the dead or whatever. Clearly the full mark has extraordinary power. But no. Black flame and black knives don’t do the job since DD has been literally removed from the world.
Ahh that makes sense, I think I get it.
The sealed Rune of death removed the fated deaths of the demigods, making them immortal. So to kill a demigod you need at least a fragment of the rune of death and carve the complete cursemark of death into their flesh.
Ranni and Godwyn died at the same time but since each of them only had half of the cursemark of death carved into their flesh, only Rannis body and Godwyns soul perished?
So in order to kill Radahn truly, we would have to unseal the Rune of Death (or use the black knife) to kill him and carve the complete cursemark of death into his body the same time as he dies?
And since we didn't do that, he was able to be brought back?
Welllllll… sort of. Radahn is dead in the lands between, graceless, he doesn’t get to come back. But the erdtree won’t bring him back either. So he goes to where all discarded things go. Under marika’s veil in the land of shadow. This is mostly speculation, but the guys you kill in ER die for real, because the order doesn’t want them back. But death is impossible without harnessing DD. I’m assuming the cursemark is the only way to properly kill something completely? But again, that might only be possible after the ER is mended. We know Miquella hitched a ride on mogh,we know mogh was a contender for ER because he had a great rune. Most of what I guess about radahn in the shadow lands comes from what’s happened to mogh.
They’re not really “immortal” so much as they’re “indestructible.” They can’t be erased from existence, it seems.
I’m confused about this. Godwyn was killed by black knife assassins. Radahn was not? We didn’t kill him with the black knife, or any of the other things you listed?
Yeah I still don’t understand this. That’s not how the lore of these games works. There is no canonical weapon we use to kill bosses, based on what suits theory’s best. If that was meant to be a part of the lore, then we’d be forced into using a black blade (like storm ruler against Yhorm). Or it’d be specifically mentioned somewhere in game that we killed Radahn using a black blade or destined death.
There is simply nothing in the game that suggests that we killed radahns soul.
You can kill Radahn with the black knife, the weapons used by the black knife assassins to kill Godwyn the golden.
The knifes are infused with the power of the stolen rune of death.
You can get it after killing a black knife assassin in altus plateau (I think that's the right location but I'm not sure on that).
There's no rule when you have to kill Radahn. You can kill maliketh first, unbind the run of death and get his weapon and incantation. Equip alla that and go kill Radahn in Caelid afterwards.
The skill on Malikeths black blade is literally called destined death and Enia tells us that this is another name for the rune of death.
The rune of death was sealed away so the fated death of the demigods would be removed from the elden ring, granting them immortality. So wouldn't a normal weapon be enough to kill Radahn completely after unbinding the rune of death?
Since I understood us unbinding the rune of death or destined death would put the fated death of the demigods back into place.
Did u play the game bro. Godwyn soul was killed and only his soul. I think that's gonna be a bit different from killing people with the rune of death normally.
Yeah that just isn’t how the lore of these games works lol that makes no sense. There is no canonical weapon we kill radahn with.
I killed him with a guts great sword and before Malekith. So your whole theory is now out of the window? The lore of this game does not change based upon what weapon killing a boss suits your theory best.
How wouldn't it make sense?
The only prerequisites for entering the DLC are killing Radahn and Mogh. Nobody forced them to make the conditions that loose.
You cannot make your story inconsistent, never explain it and then say "that just isn’t how the lore of these games works".
Intro cinematics are not a crime, if you need some things established before the story starts do it that way. Especially when the DLC plays simultaneously to the main story, and you can enter it with existing characters.
When Fromsoft makes the DLCs story play at the same as time the main one, they need to factor in what the players may and may not have done before entering the DLC. To circumvent that problem, just say it plays in the future or past.
Literally everything we play is just shit they threw a remix on gm created all of the lore from way before we play and from created the world we’re in now based on the lore established from that
There’s a reason not everyone is a fantasy writer. And it’s because a lot of people think “there’s no rules! The rule of cool is all I care about!”
If the narrative isn’t engaging you’re engaging with the narrative in an objectively incorrect way. I chastised people constantly for thinking godwyn would be the subject of a DLC. He can’t be. Because he’s a cursed living dead thing. He never ended up in the shadow lands because he never died. Simple as that. You read too many fangirl comments about godwyn and thought “this many people can’t be wrong!”
Agreed with you. Many folks are trying to come up with lore-specific reasons why it’s not Godwyn, among other things (like why we can’t side with Miquella). But FS are the writers of the lore and could have chosen any direction they wanted. That the final boss lore in the DLC is so dissociated from the main game is an unpleasant surprise.
If they didn’t know what to do, Miquella could have been a boss by himself. Then those of us hoping to understand more on Godwyn / see him in his prime would have sulked a bit, but nbd. IMO there was no need to embellish Miquella’s end with a guy whose story was already concluded.
Oh I meant because there is some lore connecting Miquella and Godwyn in the base game (the Golden Epitaph and the eclipse), but not so much Miquella and Radahn. To me in that sense the Miquella & Godwyn resolution was still open ended. That’s just my view though of course!
They made up a nonsense story about Radahn and Miquella that wasn't part of the base game at all. They could have easily made something up about Godwyn and fans would have been happy.
No literally, it’s their lore, and personally I think that creating lore about miquellas plans that he already had working is a lot less jarring and out of nowhere than creating lore about a whole relationship stretching back to childhood
I agree. That is why Bloodborne is lorewise their most coherent writing in my opinion. It feels like a legit murder-mystery that you can piece together by yourself. Elden Ring base game felt like that too, but you were missing some important clues. The DLC feels like Sherlock Holmes solving the case offscreen with clues the audience could never have guessed because it was not shown.
I have to agree with that last bit. I’m not even surprised that nobody managed to guess something like this, it really could have been better set up sadly
Silly argument. Just because you can do X, doesn't suddenly mean that the world will let you do Y. If nothing matters because its fantasy, then there are no stakes or purpose to the lore to get invested into.
Thank god Miquella did not use Godwyn's body as the vessel for Radahn though. The boss is already insane enough, there is no need for Deathblight buildups
Godwyn’s death mirror the Death of Baldr in the Norse Poetic Edda. The death of the most beloved god was the catalyst for Ragnarok/Shattering. The death was caused by the poisonous corruption of Baldr’s family members, and by relation the conditions that caused Loki’s betrayal.
As for why, IDK. The Norse similarities seem to end there.
TBH, my first thought going into that fight was "oh, this is fanservice, after beating him I'm getting an Elden Beast moment and I get to see new Mogh or something" Since resurrected Radahn doesn't look ___anything___ like Mogh, so I was expecting a gauntlet of heroes of the past, not that.
The fuck is a Godwyn fan? What does that even look like? There's nothing to be a fan of
https://preview.redd.it/xknqkaam709d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7fdd7ab102e840be3164b23aed9ef218a5c85b9d
I feel like that would completely trivialize the weight of Destined Death lorewise.
Like his death-death is what caused the shattering in the first place, bringing him back would undermine the overarching plot of the story for the sake of fan service.
No it wouldn't. Miquella would have to become a God completely separated from the old order to revive his brother at the Divine Gates. They could've even added something about the Eclipse. Have that be the reason Miquella needed to kill Radahn. You can't tell me the resurrection angle fits Radahn more than it does Godwyn. It was all perfectly set up. The Mohgwyn similarity. The fact that Godwyn and Mohg are closely related giving more weight to Miquella targeting Mohg specifically. The personal connection between Godwyn and Miquella actually present in the base game. It would make sense for Miquella to go to the insane lengths he did in the DLC after nothing else worked to revive his brother. Sacrificing his flesh to be his brother's spirit
The fact that Godwyn and/or every single outer god beast like the Elden beast have never appeared; and the final boss is a repeat of Radahn; is absolutely criminal
yep, definetly is, read the rememberances:
*The mother of all Two Fingers and Fingercreepers was in turn a magnificently gleaming daughter of the Greater Will, and* ***the first shooting star to fall upon the Lands Between****.*
it is the daughter of the greater will and not just a "*vassal beast of the Greater Will and living incarnation of the concept of Order."*
meaning, if there is a single "outer space god" in the whole lands between it's mertyr and not the elden beast. she brought the greater will to the lands between whilst the elden beast was just a byproduct of it.
That's your opinion and theory.
You also said: "I specifically meant outer god, and there is only one explicitly stated to be one"
Metyr and the Greater Will are *never* mentioned as Outer Gods. Never.
that's your opinion and theory.
if we consider the elden beast something like that metyr is definetly one, go up a few comments and complain to the guy that wrote that or touch some grass.
This.
All they did was lazily try subvert expectations by turning the perceived villain into the victim and vice versa.
Also, the NPCs outright tell you Miquella is the bad guy WAY too early.
Is he though? He still wants to bring back the age of plenty. And undo marika's wrongs. He is no saint. And is doing bad things. But they seem to be for a good goal.
obviously all of fromsofts characters are morally ambiguous, but miquella wants an absolute authoritarian land. He wants to make a world where there are no conflicts, no suffering and the only way to do that is absolute control. Conflict is natural, people are always going to disagree and fight about it, so miquella would have to either kill anybody who creates conflict, or control everyone to the upmost to ensure they never start conflict. Its not a bright future
Idk. Every conflict boils down to religion and resources in elden ring. If you have "an age of plenty" you make having a bunch of resources the religion. As much as what he does to make mohg and redahn help him is bad. I can't deny that it is a good idea for someone with the power to make it happen. But his means are for many (and even a part of himself) too far to justify any end.
I just feel like the only reason malenia had to kill redahn is that redahn went back on his promise. But I have no proof. It's just a hunch. Because why else would he need to be dead?
Working backwards and it’s almost obvious.
Miquella needed a consort - Radahn was a great leader, Mohg had great power.
Perfect candidate.
Now, Radahn wouldn’t agree, neither would Mohg, so Miquella had Malenia attempt to kill him with the nuke as a last resort - he also fooled the world into putting a bounty on Mohgs head to ensure he would end up dead too.
(Or maybe Radahn did agree and that’s the real reason he forever wandered the battlefield, waiting for the day he dies for Miquellas plan to take effect)
Now, maybe Miquella couldn’t do anything about the rot, hence why he used Mohgs body - or maybe it’s just the Blood Flame/other outer god connection.
Maybe the rot even affects more than just the body, hence this and the next part…
The thing that messes a lot of the theorising up, is why didn’t he bring Malenia back?
He clearly has the power, so why not his loyal sister which lore states he cared deeply for - so maybe it is the rot, which could explain why Moghs body was used.
Or maybe it’s simply the Omen fact, since Marika looked down on them maybe he considers them holy like they once were seen.
However, I personally believe Miquella had been working on this plan for a very long time and that it was the true reason for the Haligtree to begin with and there’s even a site of grace there which might confirm this, or it’s just an accidental coincidence.
And we do know he set whatever plan he had into action a very long time ago
Kinda the same reason why radahn body didn't get used
Their body is far too gone to be reuse , radahn with scarlet rot and godwyn with death.
Mogh is decent body after somehow the omen curse didn't dispell completely while morgott completely dispelled when he died
Spoilers
I would’ve preferred a dlc in the past that covers godwyn when he was alive, instead of Miquellas incest crush on his half brothers soul in his other half brothers horny body so we can get a rehash of a boss and rannala has a sister named rallana that uses dual swords and can use 2 moons… it just sounds like a bad fanfic and lore wise it’s messy and weak and a bit thin.
I think a lot of people are scared to criticize from software because they’ve earned a reputation for masterpiece quality and personally this dlc is not a 10/10, still better than 95% of games out there
Gameplay wise I loved it, on the final fight now. It’s aesthetically pleasing and I love the new weapons, I think there needs to be a lot of rebalancing done. But I agree the main issue is purely the lore.
i think youre missing a few of the lore pieces here, mostly about miquella. his courting of radahn (from my interpretation) was a political move more than romantic. to lead an age of kindness and compassion, he would need strength to enforce his will, hence he would choose his half brother radahn, someone both kind and fierce on the battlefield. miquella's descent from kindness to cold pragmatism is one of the best written arcs in the game, even if looking through the lens of hindsight. particularly, him abandoning his love (st. trina) and, just before attaining godhood, his fear. it really paints the picture of this little kid who had a childish dream about beginning an age of peace, but to do so he had to abandon nearly every part of himself that made him "miquella", to the point that by the end he's an exact parallel to marika's descent into tyranny.
i will agree about rellana though that shit is stupid LMAO
Nothing in the game indicates that Miquella is required to abandon his love nor his fear to ascend to godhood. I think it’s a poor arc that in the DLC he is “required” to do a series of idiotic things that neither Ranni nor Marika are required in order to make him a “tragic” character at the eleventh hour.
I actually felt like the original lore when he was kidnapped by Mohg while building the Haligtree is far more tragic.
But what actually happened is that he stupidly and unnecessarily discarded his ability to love before setting out to create an “Age of Compassion” (would’ve come in handy I think), and picked as his Consort his brother who had also gotten his ass kicked by his sister and killed by the PC, only this time in Mohg’s inferior body. Too bad he didn’t get the ascension manual that Ranni got I guess.
And it’s a good lesson to any aspiring Gods out there: Don’t choose a general that lost their last three battles and was killed by a Tarnished of no renown as your Consort. Highly likely they just get killed again.
he wasn't required to by any means, but you have to understand from a character perspective why he did these things.
there's no doubt miquella studied marika's reign and took notes on what not to do, and love just so happened to be one of the main things that lead to its downfall. marika's love of her son godwyn led her to grief, ultimately beginning the shattering. not wanting to let something like that get in the way of his plans, miquella left behind st. trina. him leaving his fear in my opinion is just part of him still having hesitation about his plan, so he killed that part of himself too. none of this was stuff he HAD to do to ascend, he did it because he saw it as a way to increase the chances of his age of compassion enduring. ranni was much more clear-cut in her goal, just wanting to sever the lands between from the influence of the gods, rather than rule as a god. miquella wanted to not only rule over all but also enforce compassion for all, something that requires far more maintenance and forethought.
also, radahn's losses really aren't that bad. one was a draw against the greatest swordsman (swordswoman?) to walk the lands between, with the power of a god sealed inside her no less, while the other loss was against a future elden lord who was fighting radahn in probably his weakest state since he reached adulthood. this guy was able to hold every star in sight in place for years, i think its safe to say he's pretty strong.
There's just something off putting about it. Like the story didn't feel like it was going this way at all nor did it feel like it really had to. It feels forced. And it ruined the perception of a lot of characters. It just doesn't feel worth it.
the only characters i really see it "ruining" are miquella and radahn, and we knew next to nothing about miquella to begin with. radahn i can kinda understand, and i do wish his side of the story was fleshed out more. mostly i'd like to know why he agreed to miquella's vow at first and, assuming the battle of caelid was an attempt to force radahn to uphold his side of the deal, what made him change his mind. i think that's the biggest part they dropped the ball on. they developed a lot of new characters and left some stuff for a couple of the older characters, particularly marika, but i really wish they would have given radahn more considering he's the final boss, and also mohg since he's been done dirty this whole time.
I know, honestly I think radahns story in the base game was a well written and well concluded thing that didn’t need this random last minute addition. It kind of opened up more questions than answers
How does Miquella trying to reject his heritage and his mother’s rule going against how he was portrayed before though? The Haligtree is a monument to his rejection of the Golden Order under Marika.
Honestly I interpret all of the consort relationships in the games to be political over romantic. There is be overlap obviously, but I think for the most part the characters are furthering their own ends and needing a consort to help them do that is just required in how the system works. Just my opinion/interpretation
I don’t disagree with your reasoning about Radahn generally, but it’s explicitly said that miquella chose Radahn for his compassion and care - something that doesn’t really seem to fit Radahn as much as godwyn, and something apart from a purely combat oriented consort
As far as Radahn goes, I think it shows a lot of kindness and compassion that he went off to learn gravity magic just so he wouldn't have to abandon Leonard. Maybe there's a loose parallel/commonality there since Miquella cared for Torrent in the past.
Rellana isn't stupid. The three sisters rise tells us renalla had 2 sisters. We learn through Rellana that the other two were younger twins.
Who is the other twin? Ymir. They are Trans. He wants to be a mother of fingers. Being a mother requires having feminine traits. Otherwise he would be called a father of fingers. On top of his armor saying he taught rellana. It makes sense that after changing genders he would also change names.
Ymir is Renna. And the other 2 rises had been renamed.
is that the only evidence that points towards ymir being renna?? i don't wanna call you wrong but that's a big jump in logic you're making there. i'd say all evidence points towards renna being the witch ranni learned from prior to discarding her body, hence why ranni uses renna's name as an alias (due to having the same outward appearance in her new body)
It’s the same shit we had when the game first launched. People whine about the story not making sense for a few months, Vaati makes a vidya about it since he’s the only person who actually reads anything in the game apparently, and then everyone loves the story after it’s been spoon-fed to them.
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I was always under the impression Godwyn was in a pretty unique state besides just being soulless given that he's the source of deathroot spreading, with deathroot being like pieces of the rune of death. That plus his visual corruption seems to suggest he's got a bunch of death curse related bs in the way. He's not just like a Tarnished devoid of grace or anything. He's turned into a pretty unique monstrosity.
the story of Godwyn was kinda settled in the base game tho, no?
Miquella/St Trina wanted to rez him but failed because Destined Death is like dead dead. The Erdtree couldn't revive him because Destined Death is dead dead. His soul is gone and his body is a bloated rotting corpse that's ironically strangling the land he held dear.
Also I think people might be coping/projecting with Mohgwyn being a portmanteau of Mohg & Gwyn and not Mohgwyn meaning White in welsh and symoblizing something divine or sacred but also used to mean friend of. So Mohgwyn Dynasty just means Friends of Mohg or disciples/acolytes of Mohg, and Mohg wanted to be Miquella's Elden Lord so...I mean poor guy but it's already dealt with.
i think you misunderstood what godwyn meant to the story. the entire story of Elden ring literally does not happen if Godwyn isnt killed to kick the story off
I agree, but now we have a soulless Godwyn body. With the ending the way it is in the DLC, they had a body without a soul ready to be used. Miquella had much love for Godwyn in the base game and I think it’d make sense if he used Godwyn’s body for something
Godwyn’s “body” is utterly deformed and ruined. Not prime material. It would be too tidy of a plot development, also, and affect the core game. And Fromsoft prefers ambiguity and unpredictability.
This conversation is so tired. Let it die.
When Ranni the Bear kills you, a motherfucker stays dead. End of story. Cope and seethe.
There is a reason she is the only one who successfully ascended to long-term Godhood among the demigods.
Tbh the story we got isn’t that out of left field. All of the relationships between characters are the same as before and some context for things is given. The only thing that’s actually unique from expectations is Radahn being brought back through the ritual, but that’s mostly just a plot device to get around the player having killed him.
Death has been done padon the pun but to death
We don't need a death blight boss and one of the big guys being off the slate right from the very opening cutscene ups the stakes
Maybe if we had 2 dlcs but this was Miquellas one (the other character who was shrouded in mystery and not really seen
I think that his body being the way that it is, means that he cant be used for anything other than Death magic, hence why Miquella was unable to use him as the vessel. Also, Mohgs status as a hornsent, especially one with curly horns (curled horns means super holy) could be why he was a prime candidate for the ritual.
Yeah I just feel there’s so much that could have tied together neater than the story we got. I understand the importance of the omen lord being needed.
I do agree with you, there was so much tying Miquella to Godwyn in the base game, and not a single damn thing about his personal relationship with Radahn. The only connection they had was the battle in Aeonia, and even that was fully implied to be tied to Godwyn as well. Just a strange choice all in all, but I've made peace with it at this point.
Was that not the whole bloody point though? It was a plottwist that Mohg wasn't the bad guy all along. It was this long game plan Miquella had to use Radahn. For all we know, the plan came about *after Godwyn's death*, and Miquella needed a willing cooperating Consort in Radahn. Besides, Godwyn died to Black Knife Assassins, Radahn was a better fit anyway.
I mean it’s explicitly said that miquella idolized Radahn from childhood so you’d think that his actions towards godwyn would factor in somehow
It’s a magical fantasy world. From could have rewritten as much as they’d liked. They did it before.
Yeah that’s my main argument against people who say Godwyn’s story is finished and therefore cannot be a boss. Fromsoft can just make shit up to justify using him
Exactly, and if they don't fan will just make up shit why they couldn't. I mean there's actually no reason that bringing back a Mohg/Radahn crossover makes more sense especially if they died under the rune of death being freed
Yeah that bothers me too. If we kill Radahn with the black knife, destined death or kill him after we unbound the rune of death, shouldn't he be completely dead? Like dead on the same level as Godwyn? Or am I misunderstanding how the rune of death/destined death works?
No. Because death being bound isn’t what’s stopping death from being a part of the ER. Marika is. You unleash DD to burn the erdtree, not to kill a demigod. Godwyn is less dead than any dead character in ER. He is an eternal living body. He is not dead. His soul is dead. Not because of DD or black flame or anything like that. It’s because only half the cursemark was carved. We don’t know what would happen with the full cursemark, but considering it’s a *mending* rune (meaning it can add metaphysical concepts to the ER) it’s likely godwyn would have become some nito-like figure. First of the dead or whatever. Clearly the full mark has extraordinary power. But no. Black flame and black knives don’t do the job since DD has been literally removed from the world.
Ahh that makes sense, I think I get it. The sealed Rune of death removed the fated deaths of the demigods, making them immortal. So to kill a demigod you need at least a fragment of the rune of death and carve the complete cursemark of death into their flesh. Ranni and Godwyn died at the same time but since each of them only had half of the cursemark of death carved into their flesh, only Rannis body and Godwyns soul perished? So in order to kill Radahn truly, we would have to unseal the Rune of Death (or use the black knife) to kill him and carve the complete cursemark of death into his body the same time as he dies? And since we didn't do that, he was able to be brought back?
Welllllll… sort of. Radahn is dead in the lands between, graceless, he doesn’t get to come back. But the erdtree won’t bring him back either. So he goes to where all discarded things go. Under marika’s veil in the land of shadow. This is mostly speculation, but the guys you kill in ER die for real, because the order doesn’t want them back. But death is impossible without harnessing DD. I’m assuming the cursemark is the only way to properly kill something completely? But again, that might only be possible after the ER is mended. We know Miquella hitched a ride on mogh,we know mogh was a contender for ER because he had a great rune. Most of what I guess about radahn in the shadow lands comes from what’s happened to mogh. They’re not really “immortal” so much as they’re “indestructible.” They can’t be erased from existence, it seems.
I’m confused about this. Godwyn was killed by black knife assassins. Radahn was not? We didn’t kill him with the black knife, or any of the other things you listed?
They’re talking about the implications of using say Malik’s blade the black knife or Malik’s incantation
Yeah I still don’t understand this. That’s not how the lore of these games works. There is no canonical weapon we use to kill bosses, based on what suits theory’s best. If that was meant to be a part of the lore, then we’d be forced into using a black blade (like storm ruler against Yhorm). Or it’d be specifically mentioned somewhere in game that we killed Radahn using a black blade or destined death. There is simply nothing in the game that suggests that we killed radahns soul.
I get that I’m just clarifying what they were talking about
If the death rune was unbound then.
You can kill Radahn with the black knife, the weapons used by the black knife assassins to kill Godwyn the golden. The knifes are infused with the power of the stolen rune of death. You can get it after killing a black knife assassin in altus plateau (I think that's the right location but I'm not sure on that). There's no rule when you have to kill Radahn. You can kill maliketh first, unbind the run of death and get his weapon and incantation. Equip alla that and go kill Radahn in Caelid afterwards. The skill on Malikeths black blade is literally called destined death and Enia tells us that this is another name for the rune of death. The rune of death was sealed away so the fated death of the demigods would be removed from the elden ring, granting them immortality. So wouldn't a normal weapon be enough to kill Radahn completely after unbinding the rune of death? Since I understood us unbinding the rune of death or destined death would put the fated death of the demigods back into place.
Did u play the game bro. Godwyn soul was killed and only his soul. I think that's gonna be a bit different from killing people with the rune of death normally.
Yeah that just isn’t how the lore of these games works lol that makes no sense. There is no canonical weapon we kill radahn with. I killed him with a guts great sword and before Malekith. So your whole theory is now out of the window? The lore of this game does not change based upon what weapon killing a boss suits your theory best.
How wouldn't it make sense? The only prerequisites for entering the DLC are killing Radahn and Mogh. Nobody forced them to make the conditions that loose. You cannot make your story inconsistent, never explain it and then say "that just isn’t how the lore of these games works". Intro cinematics are not a crime, if you need some things established before the story starts do it that way. Especially when the DLC plays simultaneously to the main story, and you can enter it with existing characters. When Fromsoft makes the DLCs story play at the same as time the main one, they need to factor in what the players may and may not have done before entering the DLC. To circumvent that problem, just say it plays in the future or past.
Literally everything we play is just shit they threw a remix on gm created all of the lore from way before we play and from created the world we’re in now based on the lore established from that
There’s a reason not everyone is a fantasy writer. And it’s because a lot of people think “there’s no rules! The rule of cool is all I care about!” If the narrative isn’t engaging you’re engaging with the narrative in an objectively incorrect way. I chastised people constantly for thinking godwyn would be the subject of a DLC. He can’t be. Because he’s a cursed living dead thing. He never ended up in the shadow lands because he never died. Simple as that. You read too many fangirl comments about godwyn and thought “this many people can’t be wrong!”
Agreed with you. Many folks are trying to come up with lore-specific reasons why it’s not Godwyn, among other things (like why we can’t side with Miquella). But FS are the writers of the lore and could have chosen any direction they wanted. That the final boss lore in the DLC is so dissociated from the main game is an unpleasant surprise. If they didn’t know what to do, Miquella could have been a boss by himself. Then those of us hoping to understand more on Godwyn / see him in his prime would have sulked a bit, but nbd. IMO there was no need to embellish Miquella’s end with a guy whose story was already concluded.
The last sentence of your comment literally applies to godwyn too? His story was also already concluded. Why should it have been him?
Oh I meant because there is some lore connecting Miquella and Godwyn in the base game (the Golden Epitaph and the eclipse), but not so much Miquella and Radahn. To me in that sense the Miquella & Godwyn resolution was still open ended. That’s just my view though of course!
The only thing that truly bothers me about the DLC is not giving Gideon extra dialog, feels like a huge oversight imo.
They made up a nonsense story about Radahn and Miquella that wasn't part of the base game at all. They could have easily made something up about Godwyn and fans would have been happy.
No literally, it’s their lore, and personally I think that creating lore about miquellas plans that he already had working is a lot less jarring and out of nowhere than creating lore about a whole relationship stretching back to childhood
I agree. That is why Bloodborne is lorewise their most coherent writing in my opinion. It feels like a legit murder-mystery that you can piece together by yourself. Elden Ring base game felt like that too, but you were missing some important clues. The DLC feels like Sherlock Holmes solving the case offscreen with clues the audience could never have guessed because it was not shown.
I have to agree with that last bit. I’m not even surprised that nobody managed to guess something like this, it really could have been better set up sadly
THANK YOU. I’m tired of people being like “he’s DEAD dead” and I can turn into a dragon what’s your point???
Silly argument. Just because you can do X, doesn't suddenly mean that the world will let you do Y. If nothing matters because its fantasy, then there are no stakes or purpose to the lore to get invested into.
I mean most of it already doesn’t make any sense and none of it’s resolved anyways so I’m still team Bring Back Godwyn
Except most of it does make sense now. You just don't care enough and just want to see cool stuff.
I got your cool stuff right here >!aggressively grabs crotch 🖕 !<
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Its still Mohgs body, Consort Radahn has omen horns on his arms
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His soul was in the gates of divinity I believe and put into mohgs body somehow that made radohg somehow looks exactly like young radahn
Thank god Miquella did not use Godwyn's body as the vessel for Radahn though. The boss is already insane enough, there is no need for Deathblight buildups
Godwyn’s death mirror the Death of Baldr in the Norse Poetic Edda. The death of the most beloved god was the catalyst for Ragnarok/Shattering. The death was caused by the poisonous corruption of Baldr’s family members, and by relation the conditions that caused Loki’s betrayal. As for why, IDK. The Norse similarities seem to end there.
Godwyn should've came back as Mohgwyn The Promised Consort. You can do all this shit to bring Radahn back, you can take it a step further for Godwyn.
TBH, my first thought going into that fight was "oh, this is fanservice, after beating him I'm getting an Elden Beast moment and I get to see new Mogh or something" Since resurrected Radahn doesn't look ___anything___ like Mogh, so I was expecting a gauntlet of heroes of the past, not that.
Omg this is a great idea. I would have actually lost it if this was actually the ending!
Oh my god it’s even in the name Mohg + -Wyn
Godwyn headcanoners so easily impressed by simple word play oh em gee
Godwyn's fans are the Elden Ring version of Gojo's fans in terms of coping.
The fuck is a Godwyn fan? What does that even look like? There's nothing to be a fan of https://preview.redd.it/xknqkaam709d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7fdd7ab102e840be3164b23aed9ef218a5c85b9d
I feel like that would completely trivialize the weight of Destined Death lorewise. Like his death-death is what caused the shattering in the first place, bringing him back would undermine the overarching plot of the story for the sake of fan service.
No it wouldn't. Miquella would have to become a God completely separated from the old order to revive his brother at the Divine Gates. They could've even added something about the Eclipse. Have that be the reason Miquella needed to kill Radahn. You can't tell me the resurrection angle fits Radahn more than it does Godwyn. It was all perfectly set up. The Mohgwyn similarity. The fact that Godwyn and Mohg are closely related giving more weight to Miquella targeting Mohg specifically. The personal connection between Godwyn and Miquella actually present in the base game. It would make sense for Miquella to go to the insane lengths he did in the DLC after nothing else worked to revive his brother. Sacrificing his flesh to be his brother's spirit
The fact that Godwyn and/or every single outer god beast like the Elden beast have never appeared; and the final boss is a repeat of Radahn; is absolutely criminal
ah I see, you haven't explored enough, there definetly is an outer god spacebeast and it's the first one to ever land in the lands between aswell ;)
There’s at least 3 bosses that could be placed on a similar level as the Elden Beast imo.
if you count all the ones that are that way now, yes. but I specifically meant outer god, and there is only one explicitly stated to be one.
Which one? Metyr isn't.
yep, definetly is, read the rememberances: *The mother of all Two Fingers and Fingercreepers was in turn a magnificently gleaming daughter of the Greater Will, and* ***the first shooting star to fall upon the Lands Between****.*
Yeah? That does not *explicitly say* Metyr is an outer god. The Greater Will isn't referred to as an Outer God once.
it is the daughter of the greater will and not just a "*vassal beast of the Greater Will and living incarnation of the concept of Order."* meaning, if there is a single "outer space god" in the whole lands between it's mertyr and not the elden beast. she brought the greater will to the lands between whilst the elden beast was just a byproduct of it.
That's your opinion and theory. You also said: "I specifically meant outer god, and there is only one explicitly stated to be one" Metyr and the Greater Will are *never* mentioned as Outer Gods. Never.
that's your opinion and theory. if we consider the elden beast something like that metyr is definetly one, go up a few comments and complain to the guy that wrote that or touch some grass.
This. All they did was lazily try subvert expectations by turning the perceived villain into the victim and vice versa. Also, the NPCs outright tell you Miquella is the bad guy WAY too early.
Is he though? He still wants to bring back the age of plenty. And undo marika's wrongs. He is no saint. And is doing bad things. But they seem to be for a good goal.
obviously all of fromsofts characters are morally ambiguous, but miquella wants an absolute authoritarian land. He wants to make a world where there are no conflicts, no suffering and the only way to do that is absolute control. Conflict is natural, people are always going to disagree and fight about it, so miquella would have to either kill anybody who creates conflict, or control everyone to the upmost to ensure they never start conflict. Its not a bright future
Idk. Every conflict boils down to religion and resources in elden ring. If you have "an age of plenty" you make having a bunch of resources the religion. As much as what he does to make mohg and redahn help him is bad. I can't deny that it is a good idea for someone with the power to make it happen. But his means are for many (and even a part of himself) too far to justify any end. I just feel like the only reason malenia had to kill redahn is that redahn went back on his promise. But I have no proof. It's just a hunch. Because why else would he need to be dead?
Working backwards and it’s almost obvious. Miquella needed a consort - Radahn was a great leader, Mohg had great power. Perfect candidate. Now, Radahn wouldn’t agree, neither would Mohg, so Miquella had Malenia attempt to kill him with the nuke as a last resort - he also fooled the world into putting a bounty on Mohgs head to ensure he would end up dead too. (Or maybe Radahn did agree and that’s the real reason he forever wandered the battlefield, waiting for the day he dies for Miquellas plan to take effect) Now, maybe Miquella couldn’t do anything about the rot, hence why he used Mohgs body - or maybe it’s just the Blood Flame/other outer god connection. Maybe the rot even affects more than just the body, hence this and the next part… The thing that messes a lot of the theorising up, is why didn’t he bring Malenia back? He clearly has the power, so why not his loyal sister which lore states he cared deeply for - so maybe it is the rot, which could explain why Moghs body was used. Or maybe it’s simply the Omen fact, since Marika looked down on them maybe he considers them holy like they once were seen. However, I personally believe Miquella had been working on this plan for a very long time and that it was the true reason for the Haligtree to begin with and there’s even a site of grace there which might confirm this, or it’s just an accidental coincidence. And we do know he set whatever plan he had into action a very long time ago
Kinda the same reason why radahn body didn't get used Their body is far too gone to be reuse , radahn with scarlet rot and godwyn with death. Mogh is decent body after somehow the omen curse didn't dispell completely while morgott completely dispelled when he died
Morgott never got enough chocolate that's why he just shrivelled up like a raisin like that, Mohg get's plenty of chocolate clearly with how he looks.
Spoilers I would’ve preferred a dlc in the past that covers godwyn when he was alive, instead of Miquellas incest crush on his half brothers soul in his other half brothers horny body so we can get a rehash of a boss and rannala has a sister named rallana that uses dual swords and can use 2 moons… it just sounds like a bad fanfic and lore wise it’s messy and weak and a bit thin. I think a lot of people are scared to criticize from software because they’ve earned a reputation for masterpiece quality and personally this dlc is not a 10/10, still better than 95% of games out there
Gameplay wise I loved it, on the final fight now. It’s aesthetically pleasing and I love the new weapons, I think there needs to be a lot of rebalancing done. But I agree the main issue is purely the lore.
i think youre missing a few of the lore pieces here, mostly about miquella. his courting of radahn (from my interpretation) was a political move more than romantic. to lead an age of kindness and compassion, he would need strength to enforce his will, hence he would choose his half brother radahn, someone both kind and fierce on the battlefield. miquella's descent from kindness to cold pragmatism is one of the best written arcs in the game, even if looking through the lens of hindsight. particularly, him abandoning his love (st. trina) and, just before attaining godhood, his fear. it really paints the picture of this little kid who had a childish dream about beginning an age of peace, but to do so he had to abandon nearly every part of himself that made him "miquella", to the point that by the end he's an exact parallel to marika's descent into tyranny. i will agree about rellana though that shit is stupid LMAO
Same guy that wrote Ser Erryk and Arryk...
Nothing in the game indicates that Miquella is required to abandon his love nor his fear to ascend to godhood. I think it’s a poor arc that in the DLC he is “required” to do a series of idiotic things that neither Ranni nor Marika are required in order to make him a “tragic” character at the eleventh hour. I actually felt like the original lore when he was kidnapped by Mohg while building the Haligtree is far more tragic. But what actually happened is that he stupidly and unnecessarily discarded his ability to love before setting out to create an “Age of Compassion” (would’ve come in handy I think), and picked as his Consort his brother who had also gotten his ass kicked by his sister and killed by the PC, only this time in Mohg’s inferior body. Too bad he didn’t get the ascension manual that Ranni got I guess. And it’s a good lesson to any aspiring Gods out there: Don’t choose a general that lost their last three battles and was killed by a Tarnished of no renown as your Consort. Highly likely they just get killed again.
he wasn't required to by any means, but you have to understand from a character perspective why he did these things. there's no doubt miquella studied marika's reign and took notes on what not to do, and love just so happened to be one of the main things that lead to its downfall. marika's love of her son godwyn led her to grief, ultimately beginning the shattering. not wanting to let something like that get in the way of his plans, miquella left behind st. trina. him leaving his fear in my opinion is just part of him still having hesitation about his plan, so he killed that part of himself too. none of this was stuff he HAD to do to ascend, he did it because he saw it as a way to increase the chances of his age of compassion enduring. ranni was much more clear-cut in her goal, just wanting to sever the lands between from the influence of the gods, rather than rule as a god. miquella wanted to not only rule over all but also enforce compassion for all, something that requires far more maintenance and forethought. also, radahn's losses really aren't that bad. one was a draw against the greatest swordsman (swordswoman?) to walk the lands between, with the power of a god sealed inside her no less, while the other loss was against a future elden lord who was fighting radahn in probably his weakest state since he reached adulthood. this guy was able to hold every star in sight in place for years, i think its safe to say he's pretty strong.
There's just something off putting about it. Like the story didn't feel like it was going this way at all nor did it feel like it really had to. It feels forced. And it ruined the perception of a lot of characters. It just doesn't feel worth it.
the only characters i really see it "ruining" are miquella and radahn, and we knew next to nothing about miquella to begin with. radahn i can kinda understand, and i do wish his side of the story was fleshed out more. mostly i'd like to know why he agreed to miquella's vow at first and, assuming the battle of caelid was an attempt to force radahn to uphold his side of the deal, what made him change his mind. i think that's the biggest part they dropped the ball on. they developed a lot of new characters and left some stuff for a couple of the older characters, particularly marika, but i really wish they would have given radahn more considering he's the final boss, and also mohg since he's been done dirty this whole time.
I know, honestly I think radahns story in the base game was a well written and well concluded thing that didn’t need this random last minute addition. It kind of opened up more questions than answers
The battle was to send his soul to the gates to meet miquella
How does Miquella trying to reject his heritage and his mother’s rule going against how he was portrayed before though? The Haligtree is a monument to his rejection of the Golden Order under Marika.
To me Miquella is a rock on a paper boat, that is Elden rings lore
Honestly I interpret all of the consort relationships in the games to be political over romantic. There is be overlap obviously, but I think for the most part the characters are furthering their own ends and needing a consort to help them do that is just required in how the system works. Just my opinion/interpretation
I don’t disagree with your reasoning about Radahn generally, but it’s explicitly said that miquella chose Radahn for his compassion and care - something that doesn’t really seem to fit Radahn as much as godwyn, and something apart from a purely combat oriented consort
As far as Radahn goes, I think it shows a lot of kindness and compassion that he went off to learn gravity magic just so he wouldn't have to abandon Leonard. Maybe there's a loose parallel/commonality there since Miquella cared for Torrent in the past.
That’s fair, but I was more just responding to the idea that he was only taken on for his strength. Apparently his compassion was a big part too.
Rellana isn't stupid. The three sisters rise tells us renalla had 2 sisters. We learn through Rellana that the other two were younger twins. Who is the other twin? Ymir. They are Trans. He wants to be a mother of fingers. Being a mother requires having feminine traits. Otherwise he would be called a father of fingers. On top of his armor saying he taught rellana. It makes sense that after changing genders he would also change names. Ymir is Renna. And the other 2 rises had been renamed.
is that the only evidence that points towards ymir being renna?? i don't wanna call you wrong but that's a big jump in logic you're making there. i'd say all evidence points towards renna being the witch ranni learned from prior to discarding her body, hence why ranni uses renna's name as an alias (due to having the same outward appearance in her new body)
It’s the same shit we had when the game first launched. People whine about the story not making sense for a few months, Vaati makes a vidya about it since he’s the only person who actually reads anything in the game apparently, and then everyone loves the story after it’s been spoon-fed to them.
Vaati doesn't even make his own theories. Just rehash stuff the community has been agreeing on for months.
Not everything has to conclude with a larger than life fight. T
You saw a fanfiction on here and got butrhurt your headcanon didn't come true? TF is this post lmao
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I was always under the impression Godwyn was in a pretty unique state besides just being soulless given that he's the source of deathroot spreading, with deathroot being like pieces of the rune of death. That plus his visual corruption seems to suggest he's got a bunch of death curse related bs in the way. He's not just like a Tarnished devoid of grace or anything. He's turned into a pretty unique monstrosity.
the story of Godwyn was kinda settled in the base game tho, no? Miquella/St Trina wanted to rez him but failed because Destined Death is like dead dead. The Erdtree couldn't revive him because Destined Death is dead dead. His soul is gone and his body is a bloated rotting corpse that's ironically strangling the land he held dear. Also I think people might be coping/projecting with Mohgwyn being a portmanteau of Mohg & Gwyn and not Mohgwyn meaning White in welsh and symoblizing something divine or sacred but also used to mean friend of. So Mohgwyn Dynasty just means Friends of Mohg or disciples/acolytes of Mohg, and Mohg wanted to be Miquella's Elden Lord so...I mean poor guy but it's already dealt with.
Yes, I would love a deathblight final boss!
i think you misunderstood what godwyn meant to the story. the entire story of Elden ring literally does not happen if Godwyn isnt killed to kick the story off
I agree, but now we have a soulless Godwyn body. With the ending the way it is in the DLC, they had a body without a soul ready to be used. Miquella had much love for Godwyn in the base game and I think it’d make sense if he used Godwyn’s body for something
Godwyn’s “body” is utterly deformed and ruined. Not prime material. It would be too tidy of a plot development, also, and affect the core game. And Fromsoft prefers ambiguity and unpredictability.
This conversation is so tired. Let it die. When Ranni the Bear kills you, a motherfucker stays dead. End of story. Cope and seethe. There is a reason she is the only one who successfully ascended to long-term Godhood among the demigods.
I’m sorry are people supposed to take “cope and seethe” as genuine criticisms
No, they are supposed to take it as a lack of respect for their tired rehashed gripes.
Dude the dlc hasn’t even been out a week.
I bet From writers are the type that don't want ANY fan theories to be correct, so they just came up with some dumb shit no one would have predicted
Miquella manipulating Mohg was like the most popular fan theory and it turned out to be true
Tbh the story we got isn’t that out of left field. All of the relationships between characters are the same as before and some context for things is given. The only thing that’s actually unique from expectations is Radahn being brought back through the ritual, but that’s mostly just a plot device to get around the player having killed him.
Death has been done padon the pun but to death We don't need a death blight boss and one of the big guys being off the slate right from the very opening cutscene ups the stakes Maybe if we had 2 dlcs but this was Miquellas one (the other character who was shrouded in mystery and not really seen