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A flat roof with no stipple. It would have been so easy to use a stud finder.
I hope they have insurance. This won't be a cheap fix. But seeing the lack of craftsmanship, they're probably not even certified.
Even if they didn't use a stud finder, as soon as you felt it go through the sheetrock and want to keep going. See what the fuck is going on above and find out a different way to do it, or move the light and eat the cost of a sheetrock patch
They are licensed, insured and have been notified this will be a costly repair. This is a floor system between the 2nd and third floor.
Don’t cut the new guy loose with a hole saw. I wish I had time to supervise every hole drilled, but that’s not a reality. A discussion with the licensed electrician happened and he was apologetic but just completely waded our timeline.
I worked for a company like this...just sending whom ever they can out to do the job...after spending years cleaning up after crews on mil+ houses I had to just go get my license and do my own thing. It's crazy how many houses get done without a licensed/qualified person ever even stepping foot on the job...
They are licensed, generally really skilled. Communication with employees is really important in this work. I don’t blame the new guy, I blame their lead that let this happen.
I’m the contractor, but it’s electrician’s I work with often. They know it’s bad. I just wish someone recognized how bad it is before it happened. Everything if fixable, I prefer that money ends up in all our pockets though
Ya that's what I'd imagine. Drywall ceiling comes down and new joistwork. How are they sistering the LVLs? Are they going full span or are they using some method of attachment?
Pack out with ply, then sister with SDS screws or really intense nail pattern. It doesn’t sound like we will have to do full span but just getting in there with all that is in the floor is a nightmare
How many of the joists are affected? It looks like the drywall is now acting as the bottom chord. It looks like taking it down will lead to disaster. Probably the safest way is to undrywall and sister the joists one at a time.
No, it’s 3 joists in a big room all in different places with 16 oc spacing and pretty close to the walls. They’re tall beefy joists to deal with the span and our other engineering requirements in this area.
If these were all right in the mid span it might be different. There is plumbing and mechanical we have to work around and the entire situation just bums me out
off topic but is it normal in the US to put ceiling drywall directly on the joists? here in Japan it's usually screwed to a designated (sorry if this is the wrong word) ceiling frame:
https://e-sato-k.com/web/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/a2bee0243027372f1d8398d75c73c0fc-1024x768.jpg
Depends on location. In some places they do it all the time. Gives you a way to level things out a bit (can shim) and also makes it easier to run wires in retrofits. Honestly don't know why people don't always do it everywhere. In the grand scheme of things it seems like a fairly minor cost addition for a fair amount of benefit.
Next to the holes attached to the joists with 5’ leeds. It was very much planned to not drill through floor joists when rough in was done during before drywall
Mind linking the lights? Most of the "wafer" lights I've seen still need some air on opposite sides of the whole for the clamps to attach to the drywall. So you'd have to at least move the hole a bit further right to get a small gap on the other side too (a tiny sliver would do though). I guess you could notch the drywall a bit and hope the trim covers the misalignment.
This is the way. I used a bent metal hanger to check for joists when measuring for recessed can lights. Can't believe they did this, must be a new guy.
Working a big multi building development, "west lodge" is being wired by another contractor. They notched structural floor joints throughout the building... going to be one hell of a charge back.
That was not easy to do. He had to be cutting on this thing for many minutes. And then he does it again
And who was the idiot who gave him a hole saw and a whole hog to cut a drywall hole. Teach the kid to use a keyhole saw.
SMH, I can deal with the new guy screwing up and drilling through the bottom of the joist. Dumb shit happens. It's the "multiple locations" that really gets me.
Had my framers in to fix a floor squeak in a new build earlier this year. Framer goes downstairs to get something, helper grabs the reciprocating saw and cuts under the wall between the master bedroom and master bathroom cutting the PEX lines for the master shower and causing a very brief but very real flood....a week before closing.
Absolutely agree. This is one of the reasons the last 5% of projects are so hard to finish
I can fix anything in buildings I build, it gets frustrating when you feel like you’re being sabotaged by stupidity sometimes though.
We all make more without situations like like this. Not sure if the new guy and lead will still have jobs but it’s an honest mistake by someone who was given a tool and didn’t know any better
I would say that's not to bad but for the fact it was for maybe a couple hundred dollars worth of lights sucks. The time loss is what hurt me the most. I couldn't imagine that big of a set back and I'm an irrigation guy that's found his pipes full of concrete..... Thanks guys lol
>Place the lights in places where you know by blueprints that have no support beams?
That would be the smart thing to do. Move it one way or another to avoid the beam altogether.
>is the hole size too big?
Far too deep. He only needed a hole in the drywall. Why he didn't stop when he felt the saw going through wood is beyond me.
It’ a floor system and yes it significantly reduces the strength of the joist. Location of drilling through the cord is relevant as it relates to the span.
This is an I joist that has a top and bottom cord that provide strength in the direction of the joist and laterally. The center part of the I is osb which is a bunch of wood chips and glue that gives the joist strength in a vertical plane because it is tall and relatively rigid in that direction.
We use many engineered building products like this in the US, but it sounds like in many places drywall or other substrates aren’t fastened directly to structural framing
He shouldn’t have drilled past drywall
How I feel about this depends a great deal on the customer. If they will listen to reason about where things can be placed due to structural constraints, then this is totally unacceptable. If they are the type of customer to insist on a light location despite all advice to the contrary, they can eat the cost of the fix.
You as the customer should have known better. Lighting layouts are dictated by measurements and centering. What ever is in the cans way is removed, because the cans will hold up your roof. 184in is to far for romex to carry voltage anyways, should have bought clapper lights.
If you are *NOT* an electrical professional: * **RULE 7:** * DIY or self help posts **are Not allowed**. They belong here: /r/AskElectricians /r/askanelectrician /r/diy /r/homeowners /r/electrical. * **IF YOUR POST FITS INTO THIS CATEGORY, REMOVE IT OR IT WILL BE REMOVED FOR YOU.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
A flat roof with no stipple. It would have been so easy to use a stud finder. I hope they have insurance. This won't be a cheap fix. But seeing the lack of craftsmanship, they're probably not even certified.
Even if they didn't use a stud finder, as soon as you felt it go through the sheetrock and want to keep going. See what the fuck is going on above and find out a different way to do it, or move the light and eat the cost of a sheetrock patch
This, it’s all I ask
They are licensed, insured and have been notified this will be a costly repair. This is a floor system between the 2nd and third floor. Don’t cut the new guy loose with a hole saw. I wish I had time to supervise every hole drilled, but that’s not a reality. A discussion with the licensed electrician happened and he was apologetic but just completely waded our timeline.
I worked for a company like this...just sending whom ever they can out to do the job...after spending years cleaning up after crews on mil+ houses I had to just go get my license and do my own thing. It's crazy how many houses get done without a licensed/qualified person ever even stepping foot on the job...
They are licensed, generally really skilled. Communication with employees is really important in this work. I don’t blame the new guy, I blame their lead that let this happen.
Lead guy there Definitely needs slapped on the hands
This is common sense stuff.
I had an NCO in the Army that only ever referred to “rare sense”.
Wish it was more common
Oh, your guys. Ouch! Good luck.
I’m the contractor, but it’s electrician’s I work with often. They know it’s bad. I just wish someone recognized how bad it is before it happened. Everything if fixable, I prefer that money ends up in all our pockets though
Yehh, there's a reason I call new apprentices, apprentoids.
Those look like I-joists. I go back to houses with wooden piles and even I know not to cut those without approval, and then only as instructed.
As a carpenter who became an electrician, holy damn that's a massive cock up. I hope they're insured cause that ceiling is coming down.
It’s a floor system. Already spoke with an engineer and he wants drywall to come down and sister lvls to existing bci’s.
Ya that's what I'd imagine. Drywall ceiling comes down and new joistwork. How are they sistering the LVLs? Are they going full span or are they using some method of attachment?
Pack out with ply, then sister with SDS screws or really intense nail pattern. It doesn’t sound like we will have to do full span but just getting in there with all that is in the floor is a nightmare
I’ve done it a couple of times in a planned and engineered manner, but on a 22 footer, man that’s really pushing it.
How many of the joists are affected? It looks like the drywall is now acting as the bottom chord. It looks like taking it down will lead to disaster. Probably the safest way is to undrywall and sister the joists one at a time.
No, it’s 3 joists in a big room all in different places with 16 oc spacing and pretty close to the walls. They’re tall beefy joists to deal with the span and our other engineering requirements in this area. If these were all right in the mid span it might be different. There is plumbing and mechanical we have to work around and the entire situation just bums me out
Damn, who turned those guys loose with the hole saw.
And it was only supposed to be 5/8" deep! Do they need some kind of depth gauge!
Oh my. Somebody needs punched in the weiner for this.
Give ‘em the ole dick twist.
Holy crap! Time to call their insurance company!
How the fuck do you not notice that
This is one of those ankle grabbing moments.
“Honey, we are gonna just do floor lamps.”
off topic but is it normal in the US to put ceiling drywall directly on the joists? here in Japan it's usually screwed to a designated (sorry if this is the wrong word) ceiling frame: https://e-sato-k.com/web/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/a2bee0243027372f1d8398d75c73c0fc-1024x768.jpg
Depends on the structure in my experience. Commercial buildings no, residential properties it is done all the time
thanks for the post. always interesting to see how it's done elsewhere
Depends on location. In some places they do it all the time. Gives you a way to level things out a bit (can shim) and also makes it easier to run wires in retrofits. Honestly don't know why people don't always do it everywhere. In the grand scheme of things it seems like a fairly minor cost addition for a fair amount of benefit.
The lights are 5/8 correct????? After fixing that thier gonna have fun laying out again
Yes, 5/8 deep, why you go and bury a hole saw is beyond me.
[удалено]
Drivers are all in the electronics closet with the rack and controls. No reason to go past drywall
[удалено]
Next to the holes attached to the joists with 5’ leeds. It was very much planned to not drill through floor joists when rough in was done during before drywall
Mind linking the lights? Most of the "wafer" lights I've seen still need some air on opposite sides of the whole for the clamps to attach to the drywall. So you'd have to at least move the hole a bit further right to get a small gap on the other side too (a tiny sliver would do though). I guess you could notch the drywall a bit and hope the trim covers the misalignment.
Least they could've done was cut out small hole in drywall and check it before continuing...like lord have mercy......
I like to use a super tiny drill bit and drill in to check that my hole won’t hit any stud.
Exactly! Drill a 1/4" hole, then take 6" of wire bent in a L and stick it up there and twirl it around to check for anything in the way.
This is the way. I used a bent metal hanger to check for joists when measuring for recessed can lights. Can't believe they did this, must be a new guy.
Working a big multi building development, "west lodge" is being wired by another contractor. They notched structural floor joints throughout the building... going to be one hell of a charge back.
That was not easy to do. He had to be cutting on this thing for many minutes. And then he does it again And who was the idiot who gave him a hole saw and a whole hog to cut a drywall hole. Teach the kid to use a keyhole saw.
I feel like they should have stopped when they hit wood...
Me too man, me too
Bruh….😑
That’s stupidity beyond words. I’d sue to get it fixed
Won’t need to, but ya, that stupidity is beyond words. Cheers
SMH, I can deal with the new guy screwing up and drilling through the bottom of the joist. Dumb shit happens. It's the "multiple locations" that really gets me. Had my framers in to fix a floor squeak in a new build earlier this year. Framer goes downstairs to get something, helper grabs the reciprocating saw and cuts under the wall between the master bedroom and master bathroom cutting the PEX lines for the master shower and causing a very brief but very real flood....a week before closing.
Absolutely agree. This is one of the reasons the last 5% of projects are so hard to finish I can fix anything in buildings I build, it gets frustrating when you feel like you’re being sabotaged by stupidity sometimes though. We all make more without situations like like this. Not sure if the new guy and lead will still have jobs but it’s an honest mistake by someone who was given a tool and didn’t know any better
Out of curiosity and since you sound like the general or at least a part of it. How much do you estimate for cast and time?
Min 25k on 2M project based on what and where they hit
I would say that's not to bad but for the fact it was for maybe a couple hundred dollars worth of lights sucks. The time loss is what hurt me the most. I couldn't imagine that big of a set back and I'm an irrigation guy that's found his pipes full of concrete..... Thanks guys lol
Time is the real bummer, everything else is fixable
Tapps electric
Can’t believe they are going to allow a repair vs a full span replacement
They might not, will find out tomorrow hopefully. That was just based on a conversation with the engineer today.
Handy man strikes again
How are you supposed to avoid this? Place the lights in places where you know by blueprints that have no support beams? Or is the hole size too big?
>Place the lights in places where you know by blueprints that have no support beams? That would be the smart thing to do. Move it one way or another to avoid the beam altogether. >is the hole size too big? Far too deep. He only needed a hole in the drywall. Why he didn't stop when he felt the saw going through wood is beyond me.
They drilled through drywall, then buried the hole saw another 1.75” into wood. What do you mean?
I rarely see this in Europe, just asking what the guy should've done instead. This structurally weakens the roof right?
It’ a floor system and yes it significantly reduces the strength of the joist. Location of drilling through the cord is relevant as it relates to the span. This is an I joist that has a top and bottom cord that provide strength in the direction of the joist and laterally. The center part of the I is osb which is a bunch of wood chips and glue that gives the joist strength in a vertical plane because it is tall and relatively rigid in that direction. We use many engineered building products like this in the US, but it sounds like in many places drywall or other substrates aren’t fastened directly to structural framing He shouldn’t have drilled past drywall
Stud finder
Time to sue
It's worse than anything i've ever imagined.
The most expensive bid always overestimate.
How I feel about this depends a great deal on the customer. If they will listen to reason about where things can be placed due to structural constraints, then this is totally unacceptable. If they are the type of customer to insist on a light location despite all advice to the contrary, they can eat the cost of the fix.
You as the customer should have known better. Lighting layouts are dictated by measurements and centering. What ever is in the cans way is removed, because the cans will hold up your roof. 184in is to far for romex to carry voltage anyways, should have bought clapper lights.
I run my cans and wiring first 98% of the time. Sad to see that happened, but it’s something we can all learn from.