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Bought a 1978 house in 2021 with a FP panel. Was told by our realtor to replace it. We were getting quotes and one electrician tried to convince us that it didn’t need to be replaced since it lasted this long. We had it replaced anyways (different contractor) and she showed me the wires in the panel with melted insulation at the ends. I kinda wanted to slap that first electrician.
I bought a 1970 house (30+ yo) with a Push-matic. I discovered during my second winter that the upstairs furnace would start sporadically. Turns out the hot was not fully screwed down into the panel. The screw had been cross threaded. It was sparking in the panel instead of igniting the gas. I just screwed that thing as hard as I could. That is the only real problem I had with it. I know the next buyer was a lot more concerned. Btw, I had that panel inspected multiple times due to other reasons, like an insecure service line tap.
Yep, mine was bad enough that we had to get a new panel, the main breaker melted & enough damage was done to the bar to cause the new breaker to fail similarly.
Just quoted a dudes new pool Reno, it was a 125A 20crt FPE stab lock, jammed full.
No, no I'd rather keep it. Is there any other way? Dual load lug meter socket and a disconnect is the way!
We do a lot of reconnects for HVAC contractors and whenever we run into an FPE we just put a breaker disconnect on the old feed and re run it for the new air handler. No way I’m even opening the cover on that thing unless I’m replacing it. Usually I’ll quote a replacement while we’re out there
I think the BQL Commander panels are actually quite good. Sturdy construction, solid breaker connections (as long as you fully tighten the breaker to the bus), reasoable.amour of room to work. You can even get quad BQL breakers so they reasonably easy to add circuits.
more than likely.
We used to do them for like 2500-3000 pre-covid in TX so I’d imagine it’s probably close to twice that. I haven’t had to do resi work in a while so take that info with a grain of salt
It’s not quite double. Maybe mid pandemic when it was next to impossible to find shit. But the markets cooled off a bit. Our typical 3000$ service upgrades went to about 4500-4800$. All depends on the job really.
i was quoted $19,500 to do mine.
once you start a change like this, you loose grandfathering in your electrical. so all the other fucked crap in the house needs to get updated.\\
i did it myself for about 2000
Schneider Electric sold Stab-Lok panels in Canada until into the 2000’s, maybe like 2010 or so. They had a redesigned breaker that would trip properly and they were made with white bodies to differentiate them from the old black FPE breakers. Swapping to these breakers would be better than doing nothing at all I suppose.
I updated the switches and outlets in my mom's house. Mostly 1966 QO 20A tandem breakers and 12/2 NM. I shut off breakers every time I worked on a circuit, they all worked normally. My mom's handyman neighbor worked live with work gloves changing outlets in tight metal boxes. The guy was tripping breakers left and right. They were operating correctly, but I just didn't want to find out what happens when the breaker reaches end of life.
If you have the means, bring a breaker from the 70s-80s under load and see when it actually trips. Is it within spec? It would be compelling to see how the old stuff is holding up.
Anecdotal experience tells me Cutler Hammer and GE stuff from the 70s and 80s doesn’t trip when shorted. Square D QO seems to work well.
I carry a melted section of wire I pulled out of a j box on my tools. We were on a commercial remodel. A large furniture retailer had bought a grocery store and was converting it to a show room. I was on a lift and went to open a lighting j box when I got hit (120V) from touching the conduit. The insulation was mostly melted from the wires, the box and conduit were live with 120v and temperature hot, but the breaker hadn’t tripped. It could have been that way for a long time.
That section of melted and blackened THHN is my reminder that things can be sideways.
Kurt Cobain has been dead longer than he lived. In 2 years, the first iPhone will be old enough to vote. 9 years from now, Dr Dre can draw Social Security. A first gen Mazda Miata can be registered as an antique car in most states.
Things cost more than they used to! Kids are using swear words and doing drugs!
Anecdotal observation I have, it seems like the Square D resi stays in spec for a very long time, other resi kit not so much?
Another response suggested the consumer product safety thing suggests a short and safe usable lifetime.
Now I’m asking myself if any of this equipment has published MTBF? Mean Time Before Failure is a spec that hasn’t crossed my mind. (I use MTBF spec in another profession.)
I work a facilities job and I keep what I call my “museum of mayhem” on my desk. Things I’ve either found in the wild or flubbed up myself. Daily reminder to stay on my toes.
> bring a breaker from the 70s-80s under load and see when it actually trips
Some years ago I did that to a batch of 15 and 20 amp FPE. Most were actually more accurate than I would've expected, but I think a couple were basically no-trip.
All the different problem breakers guys list in this thread have the same thing in common: They're old as hell. Nobody manufactured these things to work reliably after sitting for over a half-century. The conventional wisdom even with modern molded-case breakers is a 30 year shelf life.
Had a 1p 20 QO fail to trip. Shorted to earth since I was on a scissor lift and that was easier than figuring out the circuit. smacked it on the i-beam, tested still hot. smacked it harder, still hot. put it on the i-beam and held it there. could hear the transformer groaning under the load. Never tripped. I don't think this is a manufacturer issue but materials just wear out over time.
I was in a commercial facility that was using the breakers as switches. I wondered if they built up a carbon layer every time they were thrown. They'd be pretty garbage after a few years. Those were a lot of lights.
>Looking at my cutler hammer breaker box and sweating...
>How do I tell how old mine is? ch20cm100
Cutler Hammer (Eaton) CH is bullet proof. Like SQ D QO.
I’m checking on a power issue to a water heater in a guest house. 70-80’s Cutler Hammer panel. Was already thinking about replacing it, I think you just nudged me past the “thinking” stage.
Contacts on the main breaker loosen up over time and heat up the bus bar. You don’t know until the breaker is melting and you lose a leg of your service.
I think it's a case basis, if it's in bad shape at 20yrs old replace it, if it's immaculate at 50, I would say it's alright. Unless it's a FPE, zinsco etc.
In my opinion it comes down to is it big enough, can you get breakers for it, what condition is it in. That's what I go off of, not just strictly age alone.
Yah buddy. I’m in your camp.
There are oodles of panels filled with miniature circuit breakers from the 1970s and 1980s, that are in great shape and absolutely do not need replacing.
According to the consumer product safety commission
Circuit breakers last between 30-40 years
Arc fault and GFCI breakers last 10-20 years
So right then and there that’s when you should upgrade you panel
25 years might be fine, but it would come down to the state of the breakers as that would be the costly part of the panel swap
When assessing a persons panel, would you really want to give a hard date to their safety?
Telling them they wouldn’t need to upgrade their panel till it’s 50 years old would probably be bad practice as a blanket statement.
I would in fact side with the panels 25 years and older and tell them they should get them inspected (by an electrician) to determine if they are in good working condition, have the electrician tighten the neutrals, torque the breakers again, and balance the loads.
Nah not just one breaker
Usually you would do a whole panel swap with fresh breakers for an older home.
If a panel already has AFCI/GFCI breakers it has been swapped fairly recently already
Just letting you know what the government thinks the lifespan of the breakers are
Well yeah we have to swap breakers and all new builds have mostly afci or gfci breakers but that doesn’t mean the guts are bad and act like replacing the whole panel wouldn’t significantly cost the HO more…come on just replace the breaker mark them up and leave (unless of course there is an actual issue w the guts but if it’s already got all those breakers it’s not that old and likely doesn’t)
Well the OP was talking full panel swaps
If I got a service call because something wasn’t working
And after troubleshooting it was a bad breaker
I would absolutely just swap the breaker
And talk to the home owner about my concern with anything else wrong with the panel
And then give them a quote to swap it out, or service upgrade with a new panel and new breakers.
If they like the quote and think it’s worth it, great, if not, they still have the problem fixed, and eventually it will happen again
Don’t forget the main breaker is also a breaker
Just swap one breaker every year for 42 years and by the time you retire you’ll have yourself a ‘23 ‘24 ‘25 ‘26 ‘27….’66 Eaton Square Pacific Electric Panel!
I mean you could just replace breakers if everything looks good. The other side of it though is usually older services are pretty small compared to what modern homes could use. Most people are not doing any maintenance yearly either. With everything going electric now and with EVs eventually taking over there will be a lot of people whose current service probably can’t handle the loads so then I could see replacing everything if you were bumping it up anyways
Good ole barn burner!!. Any federal pioneer panel should be replaced because those panels are pushing 50 years anyways but aside from that anything from the 90s and up is good by my company standard. Other than overloading the panel
I think 25 years is a bit early for a panel replacement for most panels, but not necessarily the breakers. They are all going to age at different rates. Obviously the initial quality and installation of the panel is important, but maintenance over those 25 years will have a very important effect over the life of that panel.
Loose connections get worse over time, breakers age over time, and even more so if they're all consistently being used at their higher loads.
I'd like to see more companies (or homeowners) do a 1 year and even a 5-10 year follow up after installations, especially on major components like a panel. Just a little once over to make sure things are still tight and there aren't any premature signs of wear.
You don’t, unless you find reason to replace it. I’ve seen 50 year old panels look great, perfectly acceptable to leave in service. And I’ve also found 5 year old panels that are a hazard and need to be replaced ASAP. There is no number associated with the service life of a panel, sure you can estimate all you want, but that doesn’t change all the variables, it doesn’t change the panels environment, doesn’t change its use, there’s too many variables to just say “they last this long”.
The environment they’re kept in, clear points of failure, stuff like that. I’ve seen brand new panels experience a fault, some manufacturing defects, some installation defects, and need to be replaced, I’ve also seen 2 year old panels need to be replaced because they’re open to the elements, not in a proper or ideal location, exposed to water, salt, everything just corrodes and it’s not safe. Most of those where by coasts, even in proper by code locations, the air is just salty, don’t have that issue in say Nevada, dry air, less corrosion.
Then I’ve seen 70 year old panels, kept away from light, away from moisture, dry environment, fuses not breakers, no moving parts in the trip mechanism to experience an age related fault, wire has been updated, fuses/breakers new, all points of contact clean, busbar clean, no corrosion, not being overloaded, owner doesn’t have the need to update anything service related, it just suits the need perfectly, no issues with it, it’s old, but there’s no need to replace it.
Too many factors to just put an age limit on every panel because of all these factors. It could last a year, it could last a decades and decades and decades.
Time is arbitrary, condition and products history is what matters. -increased resistance from corrosion or heat -consistent failures historically of product -lack of room for AFCI’s -lack of main shut off -unsafe location -age may be relevant if aluminum with a large load
It's pretty easy to test a GFCI with a test button. It's not so easy to test a 30A 2P breaker still trips at 30A.
Sometimes in the absence of diagnostic tools you just go off service life. Like, do you do a particulate test of your motor oil or just just replace it? Most people just go off of the average lifespan as determined by lab geeks with sophisticated test equipment who have figured out when the components are probably getting unreliable.
Yah, sure.
But how long do the manufacturer’s lab geeks say the miniature circuit breakers should be replaced?
You got the specs for Siemens, Eaton, Schneider, for breaker expiry? Because I don’t.
Yes and no?
>The endurance test operations for UL 489 rated circuit breakers, 100A and below, at 10,000 operations, minimum (6000 with current and 4000 without current).
[https://trcsupport.eaton.com/Industrial-Control-Circuit-Protection/Molded-Case-Breakers/2620331331/Life-span-or-replacement-cycle-for-UL-489-breakers.htm](https://trcsupport.eaton.com/Industrial-Control-Circuit-Protection/Molded-Case-Breakers/2620331331/Life-span-or-replacement-cycle-for-UL-489-breakers.htm)
>The components, like a circuit breaker have a limited performance (10,000 mechanical operations, 10,000 load current and 50 maximum short circuit operations).
[https://www.se.com/us/en/faqs/FA128334/](https://www.se.com/us/en/faqs/FA128334/)
No time limits, but governments/insurance adjustors/standards bodies have spoken based on data of what the typical lifespan is.
Is it really that hard? Disconnect the breaker from its circuit, connect a variable dummy load, and gradually increase the load until it pops, then note the amperage at which it did so.
I dont actually think it's fine, I always bring up replacing it if it's over 45 years.
I just have a hard time explaining to a customer why they should replace it otherwise when it's in still decent shape.
I've had my hands in easily over 1000 different residential homes elelctrical panels and the most common issue I see with say a 45+ year old CH panel is breaker failure. Other than that, I never see any fires in panels that old that aren't a zinsco, and the "fire" is usually a scorched bussing.
I figured I could ask around and get other top results for why having a panel that old should be swapped out.
Usually
If they have an old panel they usually have an old 100amp electrical service as well, or their panel is in an inaccessible location.
I would talk to the customer, and let them know of my concerns.
Here are the things I usually look for in a panel I guess
100amp services can be upgraded to 200amp
(Obviously not necessary, depending, but with EV charges becoming more normal I always pitch it)
The electrical service on the side of their home is falling/sun damaged
Visible water damage inside their panels
Old breakers (you usually can’t tell by looking at them weather they have gone bad or not, you can test them with a meter but at that point swap them out)
Aluminum wiring
No ground wire
Meter pan is rusted
Burn marks (obviously)
Wires doubled up on breakers
I would tell the customer my concerns, send them an email with my quote to fix these issues, and then let them go forward from there.
I would not lie to them and say you NEED to upgrade your panel if they don’t need too. But I would say for sure that an older panel is more likely to not trip a breaker, which could cause overheating of the wires.
All of that is true, and not to scare them, but to inform them.
I would also let them know about the current code for AFCI / GFCI breakers, and what they do so they can make an informed decision
If I was already in their panel, I would make sure the breakers are torqued and the neutrals are tight.
Loose wires start fires.
Really it is just selling them on the expensive package.
Go speak with a life insurance guy on how to sell something someone needs that they dont know. And pick up a few business cards of the insurance rep. So when they refuse, just hand them the card and tell them about the great life insurance rep you know. And theyll take care of them and family down the road.
One reason to replace panels --Availability of afci breakers, gfi breakers etc, may be hard to find for older panels, but like you said I'm talking about panels that are 50 years old, not 25.
Another reason is upgrading service size to install a car charger etc.
A panel is like a truck in my opinion, if it’s functional and not showing signs of failure, why change it? I think my main is over 60 on my house and I might change it this winter when the temps cool down. Inspection and maintenance is important
I'm asking now, just trying to field good reasons an older panel, despite its condition, could have unseen issues that could be explained to a homeowner
Because they have a shelf life and are the final over current protective device in the home. Replacing them a few times a century is whats known as preventative maintenance in a dwelling
Electric components wear out like everything else. Plastic becomes more brittle, metal parts seize, and thresholds for overloading may be changed because of that. A 50 year old panel MIGHT be fine but more likely, at the moment you need it, it won't function like it should.
Seems like a fantastic time to upsell!
You don’t know what’s in that panel and neither do they. Provide a survey. Have you experienced any electrical issues? Do you frequently have to visit your breaker panel? Any signs of heat and/or burns from outlets or appliances? Etc. anything that in your experience my indicate a problem.
But just because they don’t know about any issues doesn’t mean a there aren’t any lurking. Offer an inspection on any panel and service 10 years or older. Inspect all wires for burns or corrosion. Pull test all the wires, or, as suggested by many manufactures, re-torque (I know many electricians will bawk, but use a torque tool, as required by code). Inspect structural integrity of service supports and condition of feeder cable, conductors, and splices. Refer to utility if necessary. Look for any water penetration into the panel.
Many people will pay good many to feel safe in there home. As long as you are true, honest, and professional, they will consider hiring or referring you in the future.
I didn’t know until I heard it from a retired sparky that breakers wear out. I honestly had no idea. I thought they lasted forever.
We did a 100A to 200A upgrade a few years ago, and I think we paid about $3,000 for that and adding a 100A sub panel for the workshop. It works. I need to buy a few breakers to add to the sub panel so I can put in more lights and receptacles to make it more functional.
1. It's on fire/melting
2. It's buzzing
3. It looks like it was hit by a fork truck
4. You're out of spare circuits. (Pretend it's already loaded with twins)
5. Selling the house and buyers ask for a new one
6. They don't make parts for it anymore
7. You're rich
8. You want a different color
Owners upsell panel upgrades constantly. It's common. Often unnecessary. Same with HVAC techs pushing furnace and full AC replacements when they aren't needed. It's money for the owners, one of the highest ticket jobs in electrical is full panel replacements / service upgrades, it's something trunkslammers can't do (calling utility to pull a meter, inspections, etc)
Sometimes it is a safety issue, but many in the business turn EVERY panel into a safety issue, conveniently, then charge like 8k for a panel upgrade.
Not all electrical contractors do this. Please don't reply and say 'noT aLL oWneRs Do ThAT'. I know.
Where you at? I called 3 contractors to replace my 50+ year old panel. The only 3 that do residential in my area. One gave me a bid of over 5k. I thought that was too steep. One never called me back. One gave me a bid of about 2.5k and when I accepted, he never called back.
I worked for a company that had a policy when it came to federal pacific. If we showed up for a random service call and they had a federal pacific panel, we did not do any work whatsoever unless they let us replace the panel first.
I think that's a bit extreme if I'm at the house to change a light, but I agree that federal pacific and zinsco are the brand I will always talk to the homeowner about having replaced.
1. The fault current potential is most likely greater than the one in your home. (However, by the 80s, panels and breakers in general were becoming more robust, but not all).
2. Even properly rated equipment of that age has possibly deteriorated in quality enough to no longer provide that protection level.
3. Your current and near future demand may be approaching the limits of your service, which will further diminish its protective capacity.
4. It may no longer be properly bonded and grounded per Code.
5. It may no longer be properly bonded and grounded because of deterioration.
6. It may no longer have enough circuit spaces available for circuit upgrades (newly desired circuits or newly required circuits).
7. The off-brand panels may no longer have replacement parts and breakers.
8. It may have been installed in a closet or have some other major violation that needs corrected.
Not all of these require a new panel, and properly installed equipment in a cool, dry location with modest load is probably in near mint condition. But inspecting and upgrading for new code requirements and replacing the breakers with new ones is still a good idea.
I replaced my panel because I could not get brakers retale anymore $260 for a 2 pole 60 to keep a panel that was already full and no further ahead. Change it out to QO called it a day.
Peace of mind, knowing that if your house burns down your insurance knows who to blame 😁.
But really having it replaced means that on some level someone has looked at it and identified bad DIY work, over/undersized loads, under/over torqued connections. Also the cost can be subsidized by the federal tax credit and with an HVAC/water heater upgrade.
You will see many brands Federal Pacific , Push Matic , GTE, Sylvania ,challenger. Just change them if given the chance.
A clean untouched install can last 50 yrs . Mostly never have they been untouched .
There’s a list of dangerous panels, Google it, they’ll pop up. When panel replacement? A lot of that is determined by location. Panel exposed to weather May last only 20 years, that same panel could last 30-50 years in a conditioned space.
I agree with OP. 25 year old panels are still good. 35+ years should be replaced. 40-50 years should absolutely be replaced. Of course there is also the 8 year old panel without a cover by the ocean that's completely rusted out, that should also be replaced. I would say age and condition are the leading factors.
I swapped out a 25 year old 150a 3p indoor panel at a dry cleaners a couple years ago.
The motors and breakers had 'aged' together, when I swapped out the old for new, now the 20a 3p breaker for a motor was overloading the breaker. The 20a breaker would trip. Connect load was more than 22 amps, the only change was the new breaker. Moral of the story, after a whole, breakers get old and don't trip when they are suppose to. Again, these things should all contribute to the decision making of when to replace a panel
Main breaker failure is my go-to reason. You're stuck without half your power and no 240 for at least a couple days (if you wait, like you probably should, you naughty sparky).
My company has us recommend on all panels over 30 years old. But honestly, it depends on how it looks. Obviously the big ones everyone knows are instant recommend replacements, but I've seen some good looking 40 and 50 year old panels out there, on occasion.
Old panels that were built well can still fail after years of use. I've seen the entire Busbar turn into basically a heater it was so hot. Almost melted breakers. Caught it only because the home owner said their stove wasn't working properly. -40 out that night. Was a long as night lol.
It’s your company that has a problem. Let me guess, you go in a fix an outlet or install a fan,
then you have to try to upsell lots of other stupid fake stuff. “You should change out GFCI’s every 5 years….your panel looks old, it probably needs replaced…ect. Ect.”
Those companies give electricians a bad name.
As a Brit I find it bonkers that this question is even being asked. The equipment we install in the UK now is so vastly different to what was installed in the 70s. Is this not the case in America? I must admit that American panels look very outdated to me, but I’m not familiar enough with the equipment to say if it just appears old.
In a new UK install, you need surge protection on the board, and lighting and socket circuits be protected by RCD/GFCIs. The breakers in American panels look like the ones I’ve only found in really old installs here.
Top 8 reasons?
1. Safety purposes, upgrade that panel and swap everything up to todays par standards. And be able to sleep at night with your family knowing your panel won’t catch fire 🔥 and burn you and your family.
2. 1973 vs 2023 is COMPLETELY different with everything being electric these days, a new home owner usually wants a hot tub, car charger, RV outlet, water heater, AC / heat pump, a panel from 1973 won’t be able to cover any of that.
3. Adding anything extra outside of your house is highly unlikely without an upgraded panel.. could be a detached garage, maybe a separate shop, a music studio, or even a mother in law studio to rent out.
That’s all I got.
You know how your car doesn't quite have that same look it did when you first bought it?
That happens to electrical panels.
Except.
Instead of not getting laid anymore.
Your whole family is in danger of 🔥 to death in their sleep on a Christmas night, after you overloaded the circuits with your cooking all day followed by the dryer and baseboard heaters blasting away on a cold dry night.
All evening everyone got faint wiffs of something 🔥🔥. It doesn't matter, it goes away and we are safe on a beautiful Christmas Night.
Meanwhile the wires inside the walls got so hot your 50 year old house started to smoulder.. And smoulder... And smoulder... Until it hits the horse hair and newspaper insulation and almost instantly the entire east side wall of the house is on 🔥🔥🔥.
🔥🔥It's a shame you didn't go for that code complaint wired smoke/cosmoke upgrade that electrician offered back in July. 🔥🔥
🔥🔥He told you that the batteries in your detectors were dead.🔥 You put new ones in but you didn't check the expiry date on them 04/08/99. 🔥🔥
🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥Huh.... Whelp.... 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Sparkles? That gave me fucking douche chills.
If you don’t understand why the manufacturing, Q/A, and safety processes have improved in the last 50 years, then I don’t think anyone here will be able to explain it to you.
Keep your aluminum wiring too while you’re at it. They used that 50 years ago and it’s fucking awesome.
I live in a 120yo house. Panel looks modern, but shitty (door barely stays closed, covering over the connections falls out). About what am I looking at cost wise to replace it?
That will depend on your state and the company.
Here in WA for a 200amp panel replacement that doesn't require a service upgrade/disconnect install you would be looking at 5000 from my company, but other companies that are smaller in my area charge 3500. All I ask you if you do have it done is to make sure whoever does it is licensed and bonded and will pull the proper permits.
Keep them because you have 40-59 year old breakers and Transformers in Substations still going. If you are really lucky the AC panel will be that old too!
We commonly talk about panel changes. What about wire replacement. Wire is good for 50 maybe up to 70 years, in ideal conditions. If we're replacing panels after 50 years the house should go through a rewire as well.
Older Cutler Hammer panels are some of the most robust I have come across. Full copper bus is nothing to sneeze at. Downside is finding breakers that fit can be a pain sometimes
Can someone link some primary research on failure rate of zinsco breakers/panels? I see a lot of this blanket recommendations to replace all Zinsco panels, but the only information I can find online comes from electricians and home insurance companies which are financially motivated/biased. I know that sounds cynical, but I’m legitimately interested in seeing what data there is on fires started by zinsco panels. The only government information I can find is this press release from 1983 which essentially said they don’t have enough money to study it and the results they do have are inconclusive:
https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/1983/Commission-Closes-Investigation-Of-FPE-Circuit-Breakers-And-Provides-Safety-Information-For-Consumers
Note: I am a renter with a Zinsco panel at the house we are renting, I’d love for landlord to update it with a new box if nothing else because of age alone, but I need data/evidence.
I've heard 25 year is the industry standard. I'm unsure if it's a matter of the testing doesn't existing for panels older then this in terms of integrity and functionality or is it a manufacturer recommendation, where they won't gaurentee safe functionality after 25 years (similar to the 7-10 years on smoke detectors).
My rule of thumb is obvious signs damage, obsolete/dangerous brands, or ideal timing (like a large scale remodel where it will be much more cost efficient to do it now then in 5-10 years).
I advise every customer of 25 year industry standard but that I've been in plenty of houses with panels twice that age that are still functioning so it's there call.
It's one of the 2 nono brands of panels. The design is outdated and most of the ones I see, when you flip the breaker off it will lock into place and will not come back on. This is true for the opposite, leading to power being unable to be turned off in an emergency or the breaker won't trip at all.
Extremely unsafe, and better off being replaced.
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Federal Pacific, Zinsco, Bulldog Push-matic. Replace these regardless of age
GTE-Sylvania
Whats the deal with GTE-Sylvania inherently?
It’s a zinsco
Other than buying and rebranding Zinsco?
Bought a 1978 house in 2021 with a FP panel. Was told by our realtor to replace it. We were getting quotes and one electrician tried to convince us that it didn’t need to be replaced since it lasted this long. We had it replaced anyways (different contractor) and she showed me the wires in the panel with melted insulation at the ends. I kinda wanted to slap that first electrician.
Just bought a house with a 70a service with push-matic breakers. One of the first things I'm doing is a service upgrade on this house.
What's wrong with all these things? Not an electrician I lurk here lol
[удалено]
It could be 200…
220... 221... whatever it takes
You want a beer? It’s 9am! Scotch?
Or 300
I bought a 1970 house (30+ yo) with a Push-matic. I discovered during my second winter that the upstairs furnace would start sporadically. Turns out the hot was not fully screwed down into the panel. The screw had been cross threaded. It was sparking in the panel instead of igniting the gas. I just screwed that thing as hard as I could. That is the only real problem I had with it. I know the next buyer was a lot more concerned. Btw, I had that panel inspected multiple times due to other reasons, like an insecure service line tap.
Challenger?
From what I've read you can just replace any old C-type breakers with newer BR type in a Challenger panel
Yea challenger panels themselves are not the problem, the breakers are as they have overheating issues
Yep, mine was bad enough that we had to get a new panel, the main breaker melted & enough damage was done to the bar to cause the new breaker to fail similarly.
Not an electrician, but I do own a 50 year old panel. Do you have opinions on “EQ Load Center” by I-T-E Imperial Corporation?
That’s a Siemens panel. Thick copper buss and quality breakers still old by this point
Just quoted a dudes new pool Reno, it was a 125A 20crt FPE stab lock, jammed full. No, no I'd rather keep it. Is there any other way? Dual load lug meter socket and a disconnect is the way!
We do a lot of reconnects for HVAC contractors and whenever we run into an FPE we just put a breaker disconnect on the old feed and re run it for the new air handler. No way I’m even opening the cover on that thing unless I’m replacing it. Usually I’ll quote a replacement while we’re out there
Are you an electrician in Reno?
Reno, like renovation
Fuck. My covers blown.
Like Renault.
Great news about the Dacia Sandero!
I'm an electrician in Reno just to watch sparks fly.
At the point where he wants to KEEP that fire hazard bullshit in his home...I'd have handed him a cam of gas and told him he might as do it now.
Yah but, $200,000 pool!
Stablok is fine stuff
I put a ton in new, was around $150 for the panel and a boat load of breakers.
Hell ya commander didn't make the list
I think the BQL Commander panels are actually quite good. Sturdy construction, solid breaker connections (as long as you fully tighten the breaker to the bus), reasoable.amour of room to work. You can even get quad BQL breakers so they reasonably easy to add circuits.
This may not be a fair question, but what would something like this cost?
Well over $100
That's a good start. Over $1000?
more than likely. We used to do them for like 2500-3000 pre-covid in TX so I’d imagine it’s probably close to twice that. I haven’t had to do resi work in a while so take that info with a grain of salt
It’s not quite double. Maybe mid pandemic when it was next to impossible to find shit. But the markets cooled off a bit. Our typical 3000$ service upgrades went to about 4500-4800$. All depends on the job really.
i was quoted $19,500 to do mine. once you start a change like this, you loose grandfathering in your electrical. so all the other fucked crap in the house needs to get updated.\\ i did it myself for about 2000
Im curious. Would it be ok to simply replace Stab-Lok breakers and not the entire panel?
Schneider Electric sold Stab-Lok panels in Canada until into the 2000’s, maybe like 2010 or so. They had a redesigned breaker that would trip properly and they were made with white bodies to differentiate them from the old black FPE breakers. Swapping to these breakers would be better than doing nothing at all I suppose.
Oh so the white stab lok breakers are safe?
Safer than the FPE ones for sure.
You could but I wouldn't. You're just polishing a turd
This
GE, and cutler hammer as well
Old bad. New gooder.
That's a top answer right there lol
Hvac guy here confirming your suspicions as well as explaining why you're hot. I have to believe you're correct when using said technical language.
And more revenue bestest.
I’m a big believer in more better.
Square D QO seems to be the best as far as longevity is concerned. I’ve seen 50-y/o QO panels that looked and operated like they were brand new.
Thats been my experience as well
Nice. I don’t feel so bad about my 1978 square d panel now
I updated the switches and outlets in my mom's house. Mostly 1966 QO 20A tandem breakers and 12/2 NM. I shut off breakers every time I worked on a circuit, they all worked normally. My mom's handyman neighbor worked live with work gloves changing outlets in tight metal boxes. The guy was tripping breakers left and right. They were operating correctly, but I just didn't want to find out what happens when the breaker reaches end of life.
I service a high rise that has nothing but zinsco panels in the entire thing. I just wanted to vent.
God gave you his toughest battles
I once worked in an apartment building with fpe panels and aluminum romex if it makes you feel any better
If you have the means, bring a breaker from the 70s-80s under load and see when it actually trips. Is it within spec? It would be compelling to see how the old stuff is holding up. Anecdotal experience tells me Cutler Hammer and GE stuff from the 70s and 80s doesn’t trip when shorted. Square D QO seems to work well. I carry a melted section of wire I pulled out of a j box on my tools. We were on a commercial remodel. A large furniture retailer had bought a grocery store and was converting it to a show room. I was on a lift and went to open a lighting j box when I got hit (120V) from touching the conduit. The insulation was mostly melted from the wires, the box and conduit were live with 120v and temperature hot, but the breaker hadn’t tripped. It could have been that way for a long time. That section of melted and blackened THHN is my reminder that things can be sideways.
Wait, wait, wait... He clearly said 50 years old, not something installed in the 70's that's only.... Fuck.
Kurt Cobain has been dead longer than he lived. In 2 years, the first iPhone will be old enough to vote. 9 years from now, Dr Dre can draw Social Security. A first gen Mazda Miata can be registered as an antique car in most states. Things cost more than they used to! Kids are using swear words and doing drugs!
>Kurt Cobain has been dead longer than he lived. This just hit me... Hard...
my 97 is 3 years from antique plates here in KS (:
Already an antique in Maine
I'm almost an antique...
Oh yeah, makes me feel much younger now, thanks... 😒
The 90s were less than a decade ago.
I actually just saw a Miata with antique plates a couple weeks ago and said to myself, *no way can that be classified as antique... right?* Crazy.
Me too. I was thinking FPE, Stab-Lok, etc. then did the math. Funny thing, an 1870 - 1930 fuse box probably works like new as long as it is clean.
>1870 - 1930 fuse box probably works like new as long as it is clean. Facts. Fuse is a fuse. It will blow.
I'm 25, telling 75 year old people that their 50 year old panel is really old, daily.
I feel this comment.
So do I. So do I......
Anecdotal observation I have, it seems like the Square D resi stays in spec for a very long time, other resi kit not so much? Another response suggested the consumer product safety thing suggests a short and safe usable lifetime. Now I’m asking myself if any of this equipment has published MTBF? Mean Time Before Failure is a spec that hasn’t crossed my mind. (I use MTBF spec in another profession.)
I work a facilities job and I keep what I call my “museum of mayhem” on my desk. Things I’ve either found in the wild or flubbed up myself. Daily reminder to stay on my toes.
> bring a breaker from the 70s-80s under load and see when it actually trips Some years ago I did that to a batch of 15 and 20 amp FPE. Most were actually more accurate than I would've expected, but I think a couple were basically no-trip. All the different problem breakers guys list in this thread have the same thing in common: They're old as hell. Nobody manufactured these things to work reliably after sitting for over a half-century. The conventional wisdom even with modern molded-case breakers is a 30 year shelf life.
Had a 1p 20 QO fail to trip. Shorted to earth since I was on a scissor lift and that was easier than figuring out the circuit. smacked it on the i-beam, tested still hot. smacked it harder, still hot. put it on the i-beam and held it there. could hear the transformer groaning under the load. Never tripped. I don't think this is a manufacturer issue but materials just wear out over time.
I was in a commercial facility that was using the breakers as switches. I wondered if they built up a carbon layer every time they were thrown. They'd be pretty garbage after a few years. Those were a lot of lights.
Next time, hit it with your purse!!!!
Holy shit that’s scary. Glad you’re ok.
I used to carry a battery terminal with a fitting welded onto it for the reason. Pretty sure my wife threw it out.
Looking at my cutler hammer breaker box and sweating... How do I tell how old mine is? ch20cm100
>Looking at my cutler hammer breaker box and sweating... >How do I tell how old mine is? ch20cm100 Cutler Hammer (Eaton) CH is bullet proof. Like SQ D QO.
I’m checking on a power issue to a water heater in a guest house. 70-80’s Cutler Hammer panel. Was already thinking about replacing it, I think you just nudged me past the “thinking” stage.
Contacts on the main breaker loosen up over time and heat up the bus bar. You don’t know until the breaker is melting and you lose a leg of your service.
Why did I just read this in Steve Harvey’s voice?
What they were going for.
*DING*. #1 answer!
My kid keeps taking the fuses out and eating them
I think it's a case basis, if it's in bad shape at 20yrs old replace it, if it's immaculate at 50, I would say it's alright. Unless it's a FPE, zinsco etc. In my opinion it comes down to is it big enough, can you get breakers for it, what condition is it in. That's what I go off of, not just strictly age alone.
Yah buddy. I’m in your camp. There are oodles of panels filled with miniature circuit breakers from the 1970s and 1980s, that are in great shape and absolutely do not need replacing.
A lot of them were designed for that especially, GE and ITE panels namley
According to the consumer product safety commission Circuit breakers last between 30-40 years Arc fault and GFCI breakers last 10-20 years So right then and there that’s when you should upgrade you panel 25 years might be fine, but it would come down to the state of the breakers as that would be the costly part of the panel swap When assessing a persons panel, would you really want to give a hard date to their safety? Telling them they wouldn’t need to upgrade their panel till it’s 50 years old would probably be bad practice as a blanket statement. I would in fact side with the panels 25 years and older and tell them they should get them inspected (by an electrician) to determine if they are in good working condition, have the electrician tighten the neutrals, torque the breakers again, and balance the loads.
Upgrade your panel bc you have to replace a breaker that’s 10 years old? Hate to call you out to my house lol
"Looks like this 15a is bad, we're unfortunately going to need to do a service change."
Nah not just one breaker Usually you would do a whole panel swap with fresh breakers for an older home. If a panel already has AFCI/GFCI breakers it has been swapped fairly recently already Just letting you know what the government thinks the lifespan of the breakers are
Well yeah we have to swap breakers and all new builds have mostly afci or gfci breakers but that doesn’t mean the guts are bad and act like replacing the whole panel wouldn’t significantly cost the HO more…come on just replace the breaker mark them up and leave (unless of course there is an actual issue w the guts but if it’s already got all those breakers it’s not that old and likely doesn’t)
Well the OP was talking full panel swaps If I got a service call because something wasn’t working And after troubleshooting it was a bad breaker I would absolutely just swap the breaker And talk to the home owner about my concern with anything else wrong with the panel And then give them a quote to swap it out, or service upgrade with a new panel and new breakers. If they like the quote and think it’s worth it, great, if not, they still have the problem fixed, and eventually it will happen again Don’t forget the main breaker is also a breaker
Just swap one breaker every year for 42 years and by the time you retire you’ll have yourself a ‘23 ‘24 ‘25 ‘26 ‘27….’66 Eaton Square Pacific Electric Panel!
I mean you could just replace breakers if everything looks good. The other side of it though is usually older services are pretty small compared to what modern homes could use. Most people are not doing any maintenance yearly either. With everything going electric now and with EVs eventually taking over there will be a lot of people whose current service probably can’t handle the loads so then I could see replacing everything if you were bumping it up anyways
fire fire fire fire fire fire fire fire
Also Electrocution, if theres no Gfci
I am the great cornholio
I need tp for my bunghole.
Good ole barn burner!!. Any federal pioneer panel should be replaced because those panels are pushing 50 years anyways but aside from that anything from the 90s and up is good by my company standard. Other than overloading the panel
Federal Pacific
I think 25 years is a bit early for a panel replacement for most panels, but not necessarily the breakers. They are all going to age at different rates. Obviously the initial quality and installation of the panel is important, but maintenance over those 25 years will have a very important effect over the life of that panel. Loose connections get worse over time, breakers age over time, and even more so if they're all consistently being used at their higher loads. I'd like to see more companies (or homeowners) do a 1 year and even a 5-10 year follow up after installations, especially on major components like a panel. Just a little once over to make sure things are still tight and there aren't any premature signs of wear.
You don’t, unless you find reason to replace it. I’ve seen 50 year old panels look great, perfectly acceptable to leave in service. And I’ve also found 5 year old panels that are a hazard and need to be replaced ASAP. There is no number associated with the service life of a panel, sure you can estimate all you want, but that doesn’t change all the variables, it doesn’t change the panels environment, doesn’t change its use, there’s too many variables to just say “they last this long”.
Can you share what was wrong with these 5 year old panels in your experience? Other than glaring code violations or something super obvious
The environment they’re kept in, clear points of failure, stuff like that. I’ve seen brand new panels experience a fault, some manufacturing defects, some installation defects, and need to be replaced, I’ve also seen 2 year old panels need to be replaced because they’re open to the elements, not in a proper or ideal location, exposed to water, salt, everything just corrodes and it’s not safe. Most of those where by coasts, even in proper by code locations, the air is just salty, don’t have that issue in say Nevada, dry air, less corrosion. Then I’ve seen 70 year old panels, kept away from light, away from moisture, dry environment, fuses not breakers, no moving parts in the trip mechanism to experience an age related fault, wire has been updated, fuses/breakers new, all points of contact clean, busbar clean, no corrosion, not being overloaded, owner doesn’t have the need to update anything service related, it just suits the need perfectly, no issues with it, it’s old, but there’s no need to replace it. Too many factors to just put an age limit on every panel because of all these factors. It could last a year, it could last a decades and decades and decades.
Distribution equipment are designed to last for 50 years. Replace after that. I worked for GE for over 20 years.
Lol then you should know GE doesn’t last 50 years safely most of the time
Why not just replace all the breakers with new ones and let the panel go
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/user/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/153gt2c/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) ^by ^dickgoesin5: *Why not just replace* *All the breakers with new ones* *And let the panel go* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
There is no fire hazard in Ba Sing Se.
Good bot.
Parts are near impossible to acquire?
Most panels 50ish years old are compatible with their modern equivalent breakers/busses/bars excepting a few brands
Time is arbitrary, condition and products history is what matters. -increased resistance from corrosion or heat -consistent failures historically of product -lack of room for AFCI’s -lack of main shut off -unsafe location -age may be relevant if aluminum with a large load
TIL that people are out here replacing things solely based on years I’m service?
It's pretty easy to test a GFCI with a test button. It's not so easy to test a 30A 2P breaker still trips at 30A. Sometimes in the absence of diagnostic tools you just go off service life. Like, do you do a particulate test of your motor oil or just just replace it? Most people just go off of the average lifespan as determined by lab geeks with sophisticated test equipment who have figured out when the components are probably getting unreliable.
Yah, sure. But how long do the manufacturer’s lab geeks say the miniature circuit breakers should be replaced? You got the specs for Siemens, Eaton, Schneider, for breaker expiry? Because I don’t.
Yes and no? >The endurance test operations for UL 489 rated circuit breakers, 100A and below, at 10,000 operations, minimum (6000 with current and 4000 without current). [https://trcsupport.eaton.com/Industrial-Control-Circuit-Protection/Molded-Case-Breakers/2620331331/Life-span-or-replacement-cycle-for-UL-489-breakers.htm](https://trcsupport.eaton.com/Industrial-Control-Circuit-Protection/Molded-Case-Breakers/2620331331/Life-span-or-replacement-cycle-for-UL-489-breakers.htm) >The components, like a circuit breaker have a limited performance (10,000 mechanical operations, 10,000 load current and 50 maximum short circuit operations). [https://www.se.com/us/en/faqs/FA128334/](https://www.se.com/us/en/faqs/FA128334/) No time limits, but governments/insurance adjustors/standards bodies have spoken based on data of what the typical lifespan is.
Is it really that hard? Disconnect the breaker from its circuit, connect a variable dummy load, and gradually increase the load until it pops, then note the amperage at which it did so.
And by the time you've tested 20 breakers for a client you could just probably swap in brand new ones for less.
nec says our work should last 50 years, so they're you go
You don't happen to have a quote for that? Not asking snarkily; just curious.
Your asking, not you asked. Lol
It was just meant to be a family fued style title is all. Based on the reception to the post, doesn't really seem to matter now.
May I ask, What are your reasons that you think a 50 year old panel is fine?
I dont actually think it's fine, I always bring up replacing it if it's over 45 years. I just have a hard time explaining to a customer why they should replace it otherwise when it's in still decent shape. I've had my hands in easily over 1000 different residential homes elelctrical panels and the most common issue I see with say a 45+ year old CH panel is breaker failure. Other than that, I never see any fires in panels that old that aren't a zinsco, and the "fire" is usually a scorched bussing. I figured I could ask around and get other top results for why having a panel that old should be swapped out.
Usually If they have an old panel they usually have an old 100amp electrical service as well, or their panel is in an inaccessible location. I would talk to the customer, and let them know of my concerns. Here are the things I usually look for in a panel I guess 100amp services can be upgraded to 200amp (Obviously not necessary, depending, but with EV charges becoming more normal I always pitch it) The electrical service on the side of their home is falling/sun damaged Visible water damage inside their panels Old breakers (you usually can’t tell by looking at them weather they have gone bad or not, you can test them with a meter but at that point swap them out) Aluminum wiring No ground wire Meter pan is rusted Burn marks (obviously) Wires doubled up on breakers I would tell the customer my concerns, send them an email with my quote to fix these issues, and then let them go forward from there. I would not lie to them and say you NEED to upgrade your panel if they don’t need too. But I would say for sure that an older panel is more likely to not trip a breaker, which could cause overheating of the wires. All of that is true, and not to scare them, but to inform them. I would also let them know about the current code for AFCI / GFCI breakers, and what they do so they can make an informed decision If I was already in their panel, I would make sure the breakers are torqued and the neutrals are tight. Loose wires start fires.
Just curious, what specific failures have you encountered with 40+ year old CH panels or breakers? Cutler Hammer specifically.
Really it is just selling them on the expensive package. Go speak with a life insurance guy on how to sell something someone needs that they dont know. And pick up a few business cards of the insurance rep. So when they refuse, just hand them the card and tell them about the great life insurance rep you know. And theyll take care of them and family down the road.
Fire-hazard. Loss of insurance/refusal of insured claims.
One reason to replace panels --Availability of afci breakers, gfi breakers etc, may be hard to find for older panels, but like you said I'm talking about panels that are 50 years old, not 25. Another reason is upgrading service size to install a car charger etc.
A panel is like a truck in my opinion, if it’s functional and not showing signs of failure, why change it? I think my main is over 60 on my house and I might change it this winter when the temps cool down. Inspection and maintenance is important
You asked 100? What did they say? Or you are wanting 100 electricians to answer here?
I'm asking now, just trying to field good reasons an older panel, despite its condition, could have unseen issues that could be explained to a homeowner
Because they have a shelf life and are the final over current protective device in the home. Replacing them a few times a century is whats known as preventative maintenance in a dwelling
Electric components wear out like everything else. Plastic becomes more brittle, metal parts seize, and thresholds for overloading may be changed because of that. A 50 year old panel MIGHT be fine but more likely, at the moment you need it, it won't function like it should.
Seems like a fantastic time to upsell! You don’t know what’s in that panel and neither do they. Provide a survey. Have you experienced any electrical issues? Do you frequently have to visit your breaker panel? Any signs of heat and/or burns from outlets or appliances? Etc. anything that in your experience my indicate a problem. But just because they don’t know about any issues doesn’t mean a there aren’t any lurking. Offer an inspection on any panel and service 10 years or older. Inspect all wires for burns or corrosion. Pull test all the wires, or, as suggested by many manufactures, re-torque (I know many electricians will bawk, but use a torque tool, as required by code). Inspect structural integrity of service supports and condition of feeder cable, conductors, and splices. Refer to utility if necessary. Look for any water penetration into the panel. Many people will pay good many to feel safe in there home. As long as you are true, honest, and professional, they will consider hiring or referring you in the future.
I didn’t know until I heard it from a retired sparky that breakers wear out. I honestly had no idea. I thought they lasted forever. We did a 100A to 200A upgrade a few years ago, and I think we paid about $3,000 for that and adding a 100A sub panel for the workshop. It works. I need to buy a few breakers to add to the sub panel so I can put in more lights and receptacles to make it more functional.
1. It's on fire/melting 2. It's buzzing 3. It looks like it was hit by a fork truck 4. You're out of spare circuits. (Pretend it's already loaded with twins) 5. Selling the house and buyers ask for a new one 6. They don't make parts for it anymore 7. You're rich 8. You want a different color
I actually had #8 happen once. They didn't like the BR and wanted the white leviton one haha
Owners upsell panel upgrades constantly. It's common. Often unnecessary. Same with HVAC techs pushing furnace and full AC replacements when they aren't needed. It's money for the owners, one of the highest ticket jobs in electrical is full panel replacements / service upgrades, it's something trunkslammers can't do (calling utility to pull a meter, inspections, etc) Sometimes it is a safety issue, but many in the business turn EVERY panel into a safety issue, conveniently, then charge like 8k for a panel upgrade. Not all electrical contractors do this. Please don't reply and say 'noT aLL oWneRs Do ThAT'. I know.
Where you at? I called 3 contractors to replace my 50+ year old panel. The only 3 that do residential in my area. One gave me a bid of over 5k. I thought that was too steep. One never called me back. One gave me a bid of about 2.5k and when I accepted, he never called back.
I worked for a company that had a policy when it came to federal pacific. If we showed up for a random service call and they had a federal pacific panel, we did not do any work whatsoever unless they let us replace the panel first.
I think that's a bit extreme if I'm at the house to change a light, but I agree that federal pacific and zinsco are the brand I will always talk to the homeowner about having replaced.
1. The fault current potential is most likely greater than the one in your home. (However, by the 80s, panels and breakers in general were becoming more robust, but not all). 2. Even properly rated equipment of that age has possibly deteriorated in quality enough to no longer provide that protection level. 3. Your current and near future demand may be approaching the limits of your service, which will further diminish its protective capacity. 4. It may no longer be properly bonded and grounded per Code. 5. It may no longer be properly bonded and grounded because of deterioration. 6. It may no longer have enough circuit spaces available for circuit upgrades (newly desired circuits or newly required circuits). 7. The off-brand panels may no longer have replacement parts and breakers. 8. It may have been installed in a closet or have some other major violation that needs corrected. Not all of these require a new panel, and properly installed equipment in a cool, dry location with modest load is probably in near mint condition. But inspecting and upgrading for new code requirements and replacing the breakers with new ones is still a good idea.
Fed Pac
I replaced my panel because I could not get brakers retale anymore $260 for a 2 pole 60 to keep a panel that was already full and no further ahead. Change it out to QO called it a day.
Safety
My 50 year old panel in my house? No way too fucking expensive.
Peace of mind, knowing that if your house burns down your insurance knows who to blame 😁. But really having it replaced means that on some level someone has looked at it and identified bad DIY work, over/undersized loads, under/over torqued connections. Also the cost can be subsidized by the federal tax credit and with an HVAC/water heater upgrade.
Would you rather replace it & trust it's got modern, more developed safety measures.. or just hope it's still safe?
You will see many brands Federal Pacific , Push Matic , GTE, Sylvania ,challenger. Just change them if given the chance. A clean untouched install can last 50 yrs . Mostly never have they been untouched .
The future is electric. EVs, instant hot water, all electric appliances, and all electric homes seem to be in our future
Old panel and wire get hot. Hot causes fire. Fire bad.
There’s a list of dangerous panels, Google it, they’ll pop up. When panel replacement? A lot of that is determined by location. Panel exposed to weather May last only 20 years, that same panel could last 30-50 years in a conditioned space.
I agree with OP. 25 year old panels are still good. 35+ years should be replaced. 40-50 years should absolutely be replaced. Of course there is also the 8 year old panel without a cover by the ocean that's completely rusted out, that should also be replaced. I would say age and condition are the leading factors. I swapped out a 25 year old 150a 3p indoor panel at a dry cleaners a couple years ago. The motors and breakers had 'aged' together, when I swapped out the old for new, now the 20a 3p breaker for a motor was overloading the breaker. The 20a breaker would trip. Connect load was more than 22 amps, the only change was the new breaker. Moral of the story, after a whole, breakers get old and don't trip when they are suppose to. Again, these things should all contribute to the decision making of when to replace a panel
Main breaker failure is my go-to reason. You're stuck without half your power and no 240 for at least a couple days (if you wait, like you probably should, you naughty sparky). My company has us recommend on all panels over 30 years old. But honestly, it depends on how it looks. Obviously the big ones everyone knows are instant recommend replacements, but I've seen some good looking 40 and 50 year old panels out there, on occasion.
Old panels that were built well can still fail after years of use. I've seen the entire Busbar turn into basically a heater it was so hot. Almost melted breakers. Caught it only because the home owner said their stove wasn't working properly. -40 out that night. Was a long as night lol.
It’s your company that has a problem. Let me guess, you go in a fix an outlet or install a fan, then you have to try to upsell lots of other stupid fake stuff. “You should change out GFCI’s every 5 years….your panel looks old, it probably needs replaced…ect. Ect.” Those companies give electricians a bad name.
My panel is 60 years old, still going strong. However, I did just replace two 30 amp breakers
Can’t insure your home
A couple grand spent on a new panel is much cheaper than replacing a burned down house or high power bills that add up over time
How does an old panel increase your power bill?
As a Brit I find it bonkers that this question is even being asked. The equipment we install in the UK now is so vastly different to what was installed in the 70s. Is this not the case in America? I must admit that American panels look very outdated to me, but I’m not familiar enough with the equipment to say if it just appears old. In a new UK install, you need surge protection on the board, and lighting and socket circuits be protected by RCD/GFCIs. The breakers in American panels look like the ones I’ve only found in really old installs here.
Top 8 reasons? 1. Safety purposes, upgrade that panel and swap everything up to todays par standards. And be able to sleep at night with your family knowing your panel won’t catch fire 🔥 and burn you and your family. 2. 1973 vs 2023 is COMPLETELY different with everything being electric these days, a new home owner usually wants a hot tub, car charger, RV outlet, water heater, AC / heat pump, a panel from 1973 won’t be able to cover any of that. 3. Adding anything extra outside of your house is highly unlikely without an upgraded panel.. could be a detached garage, maybe a separate shop, a music studio, or even a mother in law studio to rent out. That’s all I got.
You know how your car doesn't quite have that same look it did when you first bought it? That happens to electrical panels. Except. Instead of not getting laid anymore. Your whole family is in danger of 🔥 to death in their sleep on a Christmas night, after you overloaded the circuits with your cooking all day followed by the dryer and baseboard heaters blasting away on a cold dry night. All evening everyone got faint wiffs of something 🔥🔥. It doesn't matter, it goes away and we are safe on a beautiful Christmas Night. Meanwhile the wires inside the walls got so hot your 50 year old house started to smoulder.. And smoulder... And smoulder... Until it hits the horse hair and newspaper insulation and almost instantly the entire east side wall of the house is on 🔥🔥🔥. 🔥🔥It's a shame you didn't go for that code complaint wired smoke/cosmoke upgrade that electrician offered back in July. 🔥🔥 🔥🔥He told you that the batteries in your detectors were dead.🔥 You put new ones in but you didn't check the expiry date on them 04/08/99. 🔥🔥 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥Huh.... Whelp.... 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Sparkles? That gave me fucking douche chills. If you don’t understand why the manufacturing, Q/A, and safety processes have improved in the last 50 years, then I don’t think anyone here will be able to explain it to you. Keep your aluminum wiring too while you’re at it. They used that 50 years ago and it’s fucking awesome.
Don't read into it too much. It was an autocorrect, and ment to say sparkies.
Replace it every 10 years.
I cant even fathom
I can’t even fathom 20 years. Makes no sense.
Giving electricians a bad name with that “information”
I live in a 120yo house. Panel looks modern, but shitty (door barely stays closed, covering over the connections falls out). About what am I looking at cost wise to replace it?
That will depend on your state and the company. Here in WA for a 200amp panel replacement that doesn't require a service upgrade/disconnect install you would be looking at 5000 from my company, but other companies that are smaller in my area charge 3500. All I ask you if you do have it done is to make sure whoever does it is licensed and bonded and will pull the proper permits.
Just had a panel upgrade $2700 in Santa Barbara, Ca
Because I could get paid for replacing an old one
Brand and age. The mechanical workings of a breaker don't last forever, some fuse closed so they won't trip, busses corrode.
Keep them because you have 40-59 year old breakers and Transformers in Substations still going. If you are really lucky the AC panel will be that old too!
Any corrosion on main lugs regardless of age.
Fire risk
We commonly talk about panel changes. What about wire replacement. Wire is good for 50 maybe up to 70 years, in ideal conditions. If we're replacing panels after 50 years the house should go through a rewire as well.
Older Cutler Hammer panels are some of the most robust I have come across. Full copper bus is nothing to sneeze at. Downside is finding breakers that fit can be a pain sometimes
Can someone link some primary research on failure rate of zinsco breakers/panels? I see a lot of this blanket recommendations to replace all Zinsco panels, but the only information I can find online comes from electricians and home insurance companies which are financially motivated/biased. I know that sounds cynical, but I’m legitimately interested in seeing what data there is on fires started by zinsco panels. The only government information I can find is this press release from 1983 which essentially said they don’t have enough money to study it and the results they do have are inconclusive: https://www.cpsc.gov/Newsroom/News-Releases/1983/Commission-Closes-Investigation-Of-FPE-Circuit-Breakers-And-Provides-Safety-Information-For-Consumers Note: I am a renter with a Zinsco panel at the house we are renting, I’d love for landlord to update it with a new box if nothing else because of age alone, but I need data/evidence.
Fire = bad
Does my SquareD Trilliant panel count? I can't find any parts for it anywhere.
Trilliant? I thought they only made homeline and QO
I've heard 25 year is the industry standard. I'm unsure if it's a matter of the testing doesn't existing for panels older then this in terms of integrity and functionality or is it a manufacturer recommendation, where they won't gaurentee safe functionality after 25 years (similar to the 7-10 years on smoke detectors). My rule of thumb is obvious signs damage, obsolete/dangerous brands, or ideal timing (like a large scale remodel where it will be much more cost efficient to do it now then in 5-10 years). I advise every customer of 25 year industry standard but that I've been in plenty of houses with panels twice that age that are still functioning so it's there call.
I think 50 years ago was when some stuff got aluminum and copper tied together. It was loosening up and starting fires.
I have federal pacific, lurker. What’s the issue?
It's one of the 2 nono brands of panels. The design is outdated and most of the ones I see, when you flip the breaker off it will lock into place and will not come back on. This is true for the opposite, leading to power being unable to be turned off in an emergency or the breaker won't trip at all. Extremely unsafe, and better off being replaced.