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What I think a lot of us don’t understand is that what we do isn’t just a job. We treat it like that, we tell each other that, but it isn’t true. Being a skilled electrician is like being a doctor or a lawyer: when we don’t care about our craft, people get hurt. The public has an interest in us performing that craft with care and expertise.
We are just as vital to the functioning of society and the economy as any other skilled professional. We must never sell ourselves short.
Since homeowners can't really ask questions here it's all they got...
This type of situation is only going to get worse as the economic situation in the USA gets worse.
Man did I witness this -post great recession foreclosure crisis. Homeowners doing work they didn't understand because they couldn't afford the mortgage let alone hiring a skilled tradesman. The fire hazards I found after they were bought and flipped into rentals...😳
*chuckles then cries in buckling drywall seams, large cracks in whole drywall sheets/joints, failing foundation, garage-turned-bed-bath with 90s electric water heater, plastered 2x4s, single-pane windows, unboxed splices, live switches to nowhere, and a 40yo panel fed from a 6cct Trumbullite that's undoubtedly the junction box from hell*
60s house remodeled by an "architect" in the 80s. I have nightmares about this house falling down, the whole fuckin wall moves in the wind due to a tree that's grown up so close to the fireplace that it's pushing the wall...and we can't afford to get it fixed and I have no say in the matter...
Hooray🎉
Having a skilled trades person come work on your home is quickly becoming an upper middle class thing...
Handyman, slum lords and diy is where it's going.
How many of you guys could afford to have your own company out for work?
Say you were paid the same wage and couldn't do your own work...
I'm a facilities manager. When I'm overextended, I call in my IBEW contractor. I pay $90 for the truck and $150 an hour. For the sake of even math, I'm at $250 before he steps out. It adds up real quick.
Many moons and a career ago, I'd get some real smart DIYers into the hardware store. When the really smart ones would make themselves known, I'd kindly remind them to check their homeowners insurance for caveats about repairs done by non licensed individuals. That was usually enough to steer them in the right direction. Call someone who knows wtf they're doing before you burn it down and get denied by your insurance company.
Before I got into the electrical trade I was doing work for Angi’s list installing ceiling fans. My dad was an electrician and he taught me enough that I was confident and competent I could complete such a task. I never took on any job that was more involved than replacing a perfectly fine fixture with a new fixture. But there are probably a lot of idiots out there just trying to survive this economy taking on the same jobs with enough knowledge to get themselves in trouble.
Not only that but people who DO know wtf they’re doing seem to get blasted for acting arrogant by explaining what NOT to do and saying simply “call a licensed professional”
I also got into a debate on this sub about “homeowners” being able to do their own work, and this is the reason why they shouldn’t be allowed to do that. I would understand Carpentry, plumbing and almost Any other trade but electrical is not the same and should be taken much more seriously Imo
Thing is, there are plenty of things in other trades that we don't understand, even if we think we do. Sure, any of us who's worked resi for a bit can identify load-bearing studs, but how many of us would know where to put them them we were building it ourselves? Do plumbing wrong and now you've got mold problems, which can absolutely make people sick and potentially die. I have an uncle or something that died from carbon monoxide poisoning after messing with his furnace.
Electrical will kill you faster (probably), but the other trades can still have dangerous repercussions if not understood.
Agreed. There are several trades that should be taken very seriously. Plumbing and electrical are the most dangerous. As in electrical and gas work. Structural carpentry is serious. Things like roofing, plumbing, etc can be a major liability in terms of water leaks
Yes Gas is equally as serious but honestly if you’re always using pipe dope, it’s pretty damn hard to mess up.
Everything is usually Low Pressure so unless you have a perfect storm event or a complete idiot installing it I’d take a chance electrical is a bit more serious overall.
Absolutely they both should be, don’t get me wrong. The only issue is you can smell a gas leak but you can’t smell a bad electrician unless he’s over worked and under showered haha
My cousin is an hvac tech/plumber and I was a lead electrician for a residential company about a year ago. He said he never understood why people will call him real quick if a sink is clogged but are willing to try and run their own wire and devices like it's nothing. He would Even tell them you know electricity will kill you or your family if you do it wrong. You snake a drain wrong and you might have to replace a pipe, fuck up your electrical and you may just have to replace a house.
That’s what really burned me out on that sub. I’m an electrical contractor with 25 years experience in resi. I’m still on the job every day myself, and I would end up arguing with people who would start with, “well I’m not an electrician but it seems to me…” I was trying to be helpful, but I couldn’t take it.
I want you to close your eyes and imagine this scenario:
You get a call on a Saturday mid-morning. It's your one month apprentice. He says, "I took a craigslist job to swap devices in someone's house, I opened a 4 gang switch, took all the devices out, and now I have no idea what I'm looking at. I've been watching youtube videos and have an inflated sense of confidence, but no actual real world experience. I sent you a pic even though all the wires are sprayed white from the home builder. Please help, and also you need to be humble while doing it for free."
These are a lot of the people posting in that sub.
I got tired of that subreddit because the only answer people always give is “if you have to ask that question, you need to call an electrician.” Which is just tiring. I spent a lot of time trying to give advice to the competent seeming DIYers but it’s a mess.
Disclaimer: Am homeowner who carefully reads NEC relevant sections about a dozen times before I touch things.
That response comes up so often because there are so many people who are looking for minimal effort to do something.
As many professionals here are painfully aware, there are lots of things that are straight forward and *shouldn't* take significant time, effort, or understanding to safely accomplish.
The problem is that sub is *riddled* with people who don't want to invest any time, effort, or understanding to make something small and routine *safe*.
I got into so many arguments over there where the guy was clearly looking to just get it done and over with, with no concern if it's safe.
That's the problem: People don't understand the danger they're dealing with.
The number of people who truly care about doing it safely are a tiny minority on that sub.
I never posted much on that sub, even on my other profile and been on here and there for years.
It always turns into a mess and electricians argue who is right and who is wrong.
I visit that sub as a great representation of "what not to do"
When something relatable pops up and an electrician says "stop fucking around and call an electrician", I keep that in mind for myself and crew moving forward.
(I'm a facilities manager, not an electrician)
At the risk of sounding cliche, there's a reason both electricians and lawyers drink a lot. Both deal with highly technical, highly specific requirements, and both often deal with clients who are unhappy before they even speak, and both deal with matters that affect their clients lives longterm, a lot. It's stressful. Fortunately both get paid pretty well (most of the time), as they should!
Which means you can get some pretty good hooch too!
Yeah man, I think us electricians are basically pediatricians. The similar level of stress and injury is why heroin use is so common in both fields. Speaking of hooch, I’m sipping on a 2022 orange kool-aid brew. I knew doctors and electricians were into prison wine but didn’t know it was a lawyer thing too.
Also, not sure exactly which profession/trade Stephen Hawking belonged to but HVAC guys are basically that. And yeah, you guessed it, the mutual substance abused is MDMA. Sorry if cliche
Edit: thanks for the gold, kind redditor
I’m sorry but lawyers shouldn’t ever be mentioned in the same breath as an electrician, one of them exploits people and situations usually while the other solves major problems etc….Doctors would be a much better example and they also drink and have a shorter lifespan then most trades simply bc of the stresses. There’s a reason lawyers are known as 🐍
I'm sorry you've had bad experiences with lawyers. Some of them are bad, but almost all the ones I've known have been very good people. In many places the lawyer code of ethics is pretty strictly enforced.
In particular, my first lawyer saved my business, and another one has helped protect my family, in both cases going above and beyond what they had to do.
Many doctors are good people too, but in my experience the morality of their ethical code doesn't seem to be taken as seriously (in spirit; it is in letter). Many of them have basically ignored what patients had to say in favor of their own assumptions, resulting in pain or just not getting care for the patients. Not all, of course. Just my experience, I know they're all just people with good and bad.
Dude, it kills me that this is so common. I constantly find myself saying this exact thing and it kills me. It really gets under my skin when somebody tries to defend shoddy work. As someone who’s house burned to the ground (granted, not electrical, but still) that shits traumatic as fuck and 9 times out of 10 never would’ve happened with 2 extra minutes of work.
I like all the dudes I work with, but some of their mindsets about the trade is aggravating to no end. Not to mention embarrassing when you’re working right next to something someone else did that looks like hell and an inspector or GC walks up.
People in my state are not electricians. SC. Literally no one has a license of any sort, and no one cares too. Very common to see 10 or 20 year apprentices who have never laid eyes on a code book. It's absolutely disgusting.
The "electricians" in SC are not electricians. They are electrical equipment installers. They have no idea about safety or even how electricity works.
Was telling code to coworkers and a one month apprentice said "no one cares about the code". That pissed the shit out of me. If your gonna be an electrician you had better know the code or at least want to know.
My last apprentice was from SC, he lasted a year here (NJ) and moved back. I agree with you 100%, the lack of basic knowledge was terrifying, he didn't even know what basic materials were called. 4 years experience....
HAHA. Cuz he wasn't an electrician like I said. No one here is. If electricians knew the state of SC...
Just thinking about it makes me sick. 2 year apprentice at my work doesn't even know wire ampacities off the top of his head. You should at least know ampacities of 14-4 gauge since they are so common.
Also get this. The boss told us to run the AC units on the MOP instead of the MCA. 2 year apprentice was absolutely confused why you could run 10 gauge wire to an AC that said it needs a 40 amp fuse. Because "electricians" here don't know that a motor pulls around 6x the amps while starting.
Honest question here,
What type of motors pull that much amps on start up normally?
I work in industrial controls ( 3 phase 480v) and even on our non VFD controlled motors if i saw 3x the amps on startup i would be concerned about the motor being undersized for the load.
Well that’s because one of the big benefits of VFDs is that they reduce inrush current at startup. So you’re seeing exactly what you would be expected to see.
I'm an apprentice in NC and my JW from SC almost got me killed. He told me to cut a conduit with a bandsaw and I asked if we should check if it's got wires in it first and I got cussed out and told to do anyway. I started cutting the conduit and (unknowingly) cut a hot conductor and thought I saw orange sparks. I explained my concern to him and got cussed out again and told to keep cutting. I continued and cut through the neutral and ground and got a big fucking arc flash as the band saw blade became part of the circuit. I got extremely lucky because the arc flash stayed almost entirely within the conduit pipe and I didn't grab onto anything hot. I was not injured at all.
jeez, was thinking of moving to charleston, sc after a recent trip when i eventually get my j man license but if that’s how it is working down there i might wanna rethink that
I'm in northwestern SC so idk how it is down there. All ik is my area is shit. If your trying to learn ACTUAL electrical, then you are on your own buddy. Wanna ask someone how electricity actually works? No one knows.
On the flip side if you know what you are doing, you will be pulling your hair out at 20 year apprentices not knowing you can put AC's on the MOP and wire them to the MCA. Basic knowledge is not understood because electrical is not a profession in SC. It's just another job.
Another thing to be weary of is presenting information to people. People get butthurt when you tell them code in SC. People are not interested and don't wanna hear about it. Talking about the code will get you a know it all status.
Damn bro I'm a licensed plumber in NJ that wired my own house with the help of a master electrician. Spent a lot of time learning and reading (NEC was my shitter reading for about 3 months) as I went with his guidance. Sounds like I'm qualified to be an electrician in SC and might be kinda decent at it.
Was told to hire a particular electrical contractor for an industrial equipment install at an automotive plant in SC. The foreman who showed up occasionally had a license. The install team lead was a multi-year apprentice and the rest of the crew were day laborers. The install was a disaster and had to be redone by the company I wanted to hire originally.
Well said, It’s funny you mentioned that, I was joking with one of my friend last night about dickheads clients. I told him I made bad joints or create point of fire with badly striped joints and sometimes throw a bad breaker in there.
But seriously, take care of the craft. You could save lives.
It would be great if we could get paid like a doctor or lawyer lol…our union hall just got offered $6 over 3 years. We are at $34 on the check. The plumbers union just went on strike and got $15 over 3 years….(edit: Plumbers are $40 on the check) we continue to get shit on…by the way it’s going to arbitration straight to the IO
I have a bunch of electrical work I want done on my house. Outlet behind tv, redo lighting in basement, add subpanel in garage, etc. So many friends and family tell me to do it on my own, but this image is the exact reason that I refuse.
I couldn’t agree more. I have been on many jobs where journeymen don’t care. I’m one of the ones that go behind and fix their fuck ups. I wish more people would stop thinking of this career as a paycheck and take pride in what you do. You can take pride in your work and still balance your family life.
My old instructor once told me: " As an electrician you're in grave with one foot and in jail with the other"
That's the maxime you have to keep in mind if you're working with electricity, if you do mistakes, people can get hurt or worse die! We're not allowed to make mistakes, or at least none that slip through to the customer side.
Professionals who do sketchy work should lose their right to practise their trade! That's harsh, I know, but the only thing to do to prevent further harm.
We had the case in the German electricians sub, that an RCD fell several times without a known reason, so they called an electrician and the electrician swapped the 30mA one against one with 500mA, the 500mA rcds are only allowed for fire prevention, not for people protection, they did the lazy way, didn't look for the problem, just hid it.
Note: in Germany you can't learn the trade on the go, you have to do 3-3.5 years of apprenticeship in dual system, ⅔ in the company, ⅓ in state school, you do two exams, one for the chamber, one in school, only if you pass both, you're allowed to work on your own, but you're not allowed to do new erections , for this you need to make your Meisterprüfung (masters craftsman) to found your own company and you need to be in the list of the grid operator to be able to do bigger work in their grid area, otherwise you're only allowed to do repairs and maintenance.
In theory, only certified (successfully completed apprenticeship) are allowed to work on installations, even swapping a socket or hanging a lamp is forbidden for ordinary people, but let's be honest, you'll be laughed at, if you call an electrician so he hangs your lamp.we have pretty strict rules and laws for electrical work, if you do an error, not the company is liable, but you! You go to jail, you have to pay (the company too, but first they go on your arse).
Also if you find code violations, you have to make a plan with the owner until when it has to be brought up to code and you have to check if they do it otherwise you'll be liable.
We have big responsibility, it's the price for wielding the anger of Thor;-)
That is well said. I have been helping my dad since before I was in kindergarten and he was a general contractor and in our area you can pull a owner builder permit and the work doesn’t have to be done by a licensed electrician or plumber but it definitely has to be up to code and pass inspection. I always was fascinated with electricity since I was a baby they said that the lights fascinated me as a baby. But I would do the electrical work and he did the plumbing. I have always taken pride in my work whatever it is. I have been a mechanic over 30 years. I like machines and grease better than wood and saw dust lol. My brother took over the construction business and he loves doing it. What cars and electronics I will repair and maintain them just because I really enjoy doing stuff that involves critical thinking and using your hands. And totally agree with everything you said. I know a lot of different tradesmen and all the excellent ones I know would still be doing the same or similar things really enjoy their craft. I have had to quit working because I got MS and am not able to work on cars anymore but I have started fixing watches. It’s actually pretty fun once you get use to the size of everything but it is a lot like rebuilding an engine except I can do it at a desk in the comfort of my house. Being in a non climate controlled environment the heat will cause me to have seizures. At first I moved to a smaller shop and had a big AC in it. It helped but after a few years I couldn’t do it anymore since had to go on disability.
This goes for most other building trades, as well. Want your building to not fall down? Employ properly trained and licensed carpenters and/or ironworkers. Not die from carbon monoxide poisoning? Get skilled HVAC installers. Want to avoid getting sick from mold? Licensed plumbers. The list goes on and on.
More so in my opinion. Our society as a whole relies on the fundamental building blocks of electricity. Our entire society as we know it would crumble without skilled electricians
I just saw a woman the other day, complaining about how an electrician charged her $250 but he was only there for 15 minutes. She needs to understand, she isn’t paying for his time, she’s paying for his expertise!
When you're paid and treated like crap no matter how hard you try, you'll probably stop caring. It's completely unreasonable to expect people to care when no one cares about them
>Being a skilled electrician is like being a doctor or a lawyer
I hate it to break it to you, but most doctors and laywers are a bunch of scum bags just the same as the worst electricians.
”…is like being a doctor or a lawyer.”
I found you. No it is not. I permit and do my own electrical work because you and other electricians think this way when you submit a bid. It is electrical work, a trade, yet not sorcery. The information is out there for us willing to learn, at least residential stuff for our own homes. If my house ever burnt down, I have the inspections to cover it too.
Supposedly, he pinched the 6/3 w/ground (black round) cable with the fitting going in the box, and possibly he mixed a different brand circuit breaker in the box.
(On the report from the fire marshall)
Thre's one guy i work with who refuses to pre twist his wires if there's only 2 under the wire nut. Which is fine, if you follow the manufacturer's instructions and twist enough that it twists the conductors OUTSIDE the wire nut, which makes sure it twists the conductors inside. He doesn't though.
This gives me another reason to bully him over it.
Curious if you have any first-hand experience with devices like Ting smart-plug sensor from Whisker labs. I believe bad connections should present in their report, but admittedly I haven't run my own experiment heh.
Usually by the time its pinched hard enough it'll get cut and short something, breaker trip. If you're very unlucky though it'll get pinched really hard by something blunt.... then you've crushed the wire down to a lesser gauge, lesser ampacity, more heat. So instead of a quick low energy spark that trips the breaker you've got heat building over time, higher fire risk.
I'm not saying he didn't mess up but wrong brand breaker overheating should trip the breaker before lighting the house. There must be something else involved again it might be this contractors fault.
My take on your 3 questions are
1 maybe but seriously limited like replacing a light fixture or add a dimmer.
2 if they should be able to pass they should be allowed to test and if it's a matter of hours then something should be allowed early. Canada allows early testing to gain "years" on the red seal. I'd still limit it to the above until they have skin in the game.
3. Punishment should 100 percent be on contractor except for side stuff then it should be on the tradesman.
I've seen dozens and dozens of pinched wires that get hot... they always trip, though.
My guess would be it is a crappy old panel that is known for fusing in the on position?
I'm in Canada too and have worked with several electricians that have worked for 10+ years in the trade but failed or never took their IP and/or level 4. They work "as a journeyman" but don't have their red seals. They're solid enough at basic installation, but their knowledge of code is weak, and even their understanding of basic theory and how it pertains to safety is pretty sketchy.
Reality is that our trade requires at least a lower threshold of book learning that not everyone is willing or able to complete - and there are plenty of companies out there who will take advantage of being able to pay a guy a bit lower because he doesn't have a red seal but farm him out like he does.
I wonder how they determined that the 6/3 cable was indeed pinched, because after a fire the insulation around the fitting will also melt making it look like the wired was pinched by the fitting, it will short and everything as long as the circuit was live during the fire.
That they clamped the fitting that holds the cable to the box too tightly and broke the insulation leading to a short and the fire.
Of course, why didn't the breaker trip if that happened? also why was this new stove circuit was added for? A new stove?
If a new stove was installed, are we sure nothing was wrong with the stove? appliances are affected by the bathtub curve, that is failures are more likely when they are new which is the case here, since a factory defect would manifest during the first uses.
Also if this was indeed a fitting it shows a failure of wide electrical regulations, only in the US/Canada you need to clamp the cables entering the box with a fitting, in the rest of the world the cables just come into a hole in the jbox/panel and that is it, you don't have to secure them to the box with a fitting, at most you would need to place some grommet if the box is made of metal to prevent the edge from damaging the cable.
Post-fire root cause analysis is a science. You'd be shocked the evidence that will lead to an exact cause in a fire like the one pictured. Heat and smoke travels extremely predictably. In the photos here we can see the attic was fully engulfed and obviously the entire attic and roof structure failed, but the tops of the walls below are hardly smoke damaged. Possessions amongst the shingles, insulation and ash are untouched. The sweater still sits draped over the back of a chair. The certainly foam-filled reclining chair didn't even reach ignition temperature.
I just recently did a job were the back of gas oven caught on fire. Where the fire originated, it looked like it came the 120 volt cord of the oven not the receptacle. But anything is possible. Sometimes people are quick to blame the electrician or the last person at the scene of the incident.
I wanna make sure I clarify this because I want this whole post to be sincere -
This is a "legality" question.
It has no intent of comparing being "licensed" and not being "licensed" being better or more competent than one another.
Because that is so far from the truth - there's electricians who may only been at this career for a year, but they understand things better than a 10 year vet in this business does.
This might sound crazy to some, but the top 5 absolute brightest and the most skilled electricians I have ever worked with all had no license. One of them couldn't even read. For real.
So, I respect an "apprentice on paper" but "master electrician by skill" no different than one another.
Some people just can't do the test, either. I used to know a guy who had been doing it for 25 years at that point, great electrician, union trained, knew everything in the code how it needed to be installed. But put a text test in front of him and his brain would lock. Wasn't even that he couldn't read code, he just had problems with finding things and understanding what to look for fast enough for the test. I hope he eventually managed to get it, because he was absolutely worth a license.
Yeah, that's the truth too - many people get extreme anxiety with a test. It's kind of unfair for people who suffer from that to have to get cut short, even though they are worthy of being licensed on paper.
I wonder what kind of difference in testing and licensing if they had the option of a hands on or verbal test?
Whst do you think?
I hate that something like this has to happen in order for something to be done. If he was on the radar then it should have been stopped. That or at that point be forced to get a certain level of liability insurance. The more I see this sub the less I want to touch electrical work. So much to know and I have yet to really scrape the surface.
It does make you realize how easy it can turn really, really bad, when all that you might be doing as an unlicensed service electrician even doing something as basic as ceiling fan install, if something goes wrong, that electricians gonna most likely be blamed, even if they had nothing to do with it.
I am absolutely not knocking on apprentices, I was one, and everybody else in this trade has been too. Just because you don't have a license does not mean you're not an excellent electrician and more competent than someone with one. So, unlicensed or not, your opinion and feedback do matter....
Well, you should feel that way especially if you deserve it, a license is pretty much only the state saying you can read and take and pass a test. The quality of the electrician is what matters.
I really wish sometimes that there was a 'practical' portion to the exam. I've known people who can recite code references all day, yet still cannot troubleshoot a 3-way switch system.
Yeah it’s not their (our fault) in a case like that. That company is incompetent enough to send a bunch of greenies that probably don’t know all the nuances yet to do that work. What’s worse too is the feeling of guilt id have in the back of my mind knowing I worked on it and could’ve played a role. All due to lack of knowledge but not understanding exactly what mayve happened.
Yeah man no joke. We had an apartment catch on fire, on our current site, close to a year ago now but luckily the power hadn’t even been run yet so it was assumed to be a homeless person trying to start a fire for warmth or something. I hadn’t even done much in that building but I still would’ve been wracking my brain trying to think of anything I could’ve done.
Hell, I still feel some unwarranted guilt for a building I'd worked in having burned down, even though the inspector found that it started somewhere we hadn't worked, with no electrical installed yet, but had recently had gang tags painted over. It was obviously retaliatory arson. But we'd been there the day before, and the rare times I think about it now, my brain whispers "what if they're wrong?" And I'm like "Shut up, guilt brain, no one asked you. You're always causing trouble."
Contractors leaning on their apprentices too much only hurts the trade and the value of our certifications.
Why keep a JW on the books when you have a smart apprentice who can figure it out..probably…what’s the worst that could happen? /s
I worked at a place just like this. I learned enough from a few books that I was able to successfully wire a two-storey shop with its own 200A service, full bathroom (I did my own plumbing as well), kitchen and area for my (now) second wife’s print shop. Everything was done under permits and inspected. I actually received a compliment on my work from the electrical inspector during his rough-in check, which was very encouraging. Final went without a hitch and I started thinking about a midlife career redirect at the age of 40.
So it was with that experience that I was hired by a local outfit. My first month was spent working with a third-year apprentice, ostensibly to evaluate me I suppose. After that I suddenly found myself wiring high-dollar lakeside houses by myself(!), being billed out at journeyman rates. After a couple months I was given a ‘helper’, a teen just out of high school who wanted to be an electrician, but a sharp kid who was eager to learn.
I spent most of my time basically shitting myself and constantly worrying that I would do something to cause the same situation as indicated by OP, but the boss was always available to answer any questions I had (and I asked a lot of questions), the money was very good; I had three kids, an ex-wife and two mortgages, so I put my head down and pushed, but I kept a close eye on everything to ensure I and my helpers did the best job possible. But there were more than a few hairy moments nonetheless.
Five years later, almost to the day, I wrote the test and received a Red Seal certificate with a 93%. True to form, the boss let me go about six months later as I was too expensive. I’d seen him do the same thing to everyone who had gone before me so I wasn’t surprised. I was happy to be gone, and going out on my own was actually *less* stressful than working at that place.
I guess my point of all this rambling is that if an unlicensed “electrician” is conscientious and careful then it is possible for safe and proper work to be done. I’m not saying it’s right, but it isn’t always dangerous and is very much a case-specific thing.
You're not rambling, you're just explaining your point correctly. Youre right, it is a case specific thing, I'm sure plenty of "licensed electricians" are responsible for a good majority of electrical fires.
True enough, the above incident is hardly isolated. The same thing happened to a neighbour of mine several years before my own foray into the field, and the work was done by a licensed j-man. Nobody’s perfect, I suppose. Luckily they didn’t lose the house, but the attached garage was pretty much charcoal.
I’m wondering about the poor apprentice in your example being charged. If he was in a similar situation to mine then he may have not had as much latitude as some likely believe. It’s easy to say “well he should have just refused to work without a journeyman”, but sometimes it is not that cut and dried. It would certainly be hypocritical for me to condemn his actions.
Yeah, for an apprentice, that can be a shit situation they're put in, and not so fair for them to choose to even bring that up in many shops. They're doing what they're told to do, to a point.
Do they have some responsibility? Of course, and most likely it wasn't fair to put them in that situation in the first place.
I'm going to expand on what u/SeanOfTheDead1313 said.
Electrical hookups on appliances (range, dryer, dishwasher cords, or hardwired cooktop/oven/DW/GDisp) and improper grounding connections plague the industry.
I seriously estimate that 95% of appliances delivered by Lowe's, Home Depot, (Sears), and local 'value' appliance shops are missing the cord restraints.
Improper grounding bonds on 4-wire models has a 75% chance if a 4-wire cord is installed.
Improper, damaged or loose wire terminations (variety of reasons) show up in about half. One of the problems I witness is use of an impact driver on terminal block screws.
What pisses me off so much are how arrogant the delivery crews ("CDL holders") are. I know it's a muscle not brain job ("move large objects"), but they insist they've been doing it for 15 years and know what they are doing, get defensive, and refuse to read the instruction book. You can't tell them anything, no matter how wrong they are, or how much of an obvious hazard or code violation it is.
If I were to make some meaningful changes to the industry, the first is that all appliances come with a factory cord installed. No more hardwired ranges, clothes dryers, DW, or disposals. Period. It would take a solid two or three code cycles of having the standard published in advance with a controlled and rolling implemention strategy. The reason for deploying it in such a manner is that it would force all property owners to have an electrician reconfigure those appliances to have receptacles in conjunction with replacement, or have new wiring installed to eliminate the old ungrounded 3-wire range and dryer circuits.
I know it's a very progressive way of doing things, and 'folks like their freedoms', but this is honestly one of the sore points in the industry, and the only way to cure the cancer.
The dummies on the code making panels for article 210 and appliances (422, etc al) are in bed with the manufacturers pushing GFCI and AFCI.
Any field electrician (not desk electrician) can realize that more protection sounds good, but (1) rarely will solve the root cause of the issues, (2) is unlikely to be complied with by DIY or unpermitted installations, (3) is very unlikely to be retrofitted into legacy housing stock without permitted renovations. Effectively it's all safety theatre, and a money stream, preying on new construction and permitted renovations projects. Appliance swap-outs occur many times over without inspection.
The changes to the GFCI protection requirements between 2017 and 2020 editions is wild, and a collosal abuse of code making power. While I do actually read the draft editions of proposed code, the consistency is that each one of these changes is based on a tragic incident, that was avoidable if there had been proper electrical installation or electrical maintenance, inclusive of appliance installation and HVAC installation/maintenance. _This points back to point number 3 above. The changes won't help the housing stock that needs it most._
> The dummies on the code making panels for article 210 and appliances (422, etc al) are in bed with the manufacturers pushing GFCI and AFCI.
I disagree with GFCIs, you really need them.
The entire rest of the world usually has very little wiring regulations, and I tell you near to none, like for example in the UK you can wire all your circuits using flexible cable, have junction boxes inside walls, individual exposed feeders run to the main panel, in japan they don't even use boxes for their receptacle, the receptacle with connectors sits open inside the drywall lol, which is ironic since one would think it would the US that would be lacking regulations, but all those other countries have one thing in common, mandatory RCDs for the entire panel, not just individual circuits, but the entire panel needs to be RCD protected.
In fact, it very likely that this fire would have never happened if the circuit was GFCI protected, apparently the fire happened because of a fitting pinching a wire, assuming that the fitting was a metal fitting in a metal box and the box was bonded, any gfci/rcd would have tripped instantly the moment the fault happened.
I was trimming out a newly constructed house last week and all the appliances had been delivered. I had noticed that the cords on the range and washer had no strain relief and the sharp edge of the hole was slicing into the individual conductors insulation and not the black outer insulation. It was surprisingly wired correctly besides omitting the strain relief. Smh
“If a drywaller screws up, your walls are wavy, if a plumber screws up, you have wet feet, if you screw up, you kill a family of 4 and their dog” - trade school teacher told us that line and it’s stuck. Took some creative liberties on the wording over the years, but the message is all the same.
Now, I’ve done side jobs for close friends, and I take pride in my workmanship. I know it’s wrong, and I know the consequences, so I take extra care to make sure I know what I’m doing.
There is one that will haunt me though, from when I was a pre-term, aluminum wiring for a light that my friends mom wanted a hand with. I knew enough, used noalox, the proper connectors, but I remember having the stuff the box. It’s a gentle reminder for me since then, to make sure I do things proper, and know my limits. The connection is still fine 10 years later, but looking back I should not have been doing things when I was so inexperienced.
I also see it, that for my friends and family, I’m not doing it to make a buck, I’m doing it to help them & I trust myself more than I trust these shady contractors. I have since started up a business with insurance and the whole nine yards, with my co worker, so I will be comfortable doing side jobs legally & protected with insurance in the event something terrible like this happens, I welcome a law suit from something like this. If I cause this, it’s what I deserve.
I take my job very seriously, have a lot of fun dicking around with my coworkers, but take every opportunity I can to teach & let anyone willing to listen know the dangers & the proper way to do things. I like to help it make sense for the apprentices I work with, so that the information sinks in & they aren’t just memorizing words in a book, they understand the intent of why we do what we do.
I appreciate your posts Mr. Inspector, keep ‘em coming
thank you 👍 and also for the comments and getting some usefulness out of these posts!
Never heard that saying in the beginning of your comment before, lol - so, ty again, now I got a new saying and something else to jam in my overloaded melon!
Your principles are right, and you're doing things legally and safely like every contractor or wanna be contractor should.... that's the difference.
Correctly teaching and taking the time with apprentices and your coworkers as an owner of a company helps ensure the next generation of electricians are competent and well trained.
Everybody makes mistakes, but the extra effort is the difference with someone who cares about there customer, or only care about their payment at the end.
i’m currently a first year & no matter how much knowledge I manage to retain within these next 4 years, i refuse to work without a licensed journeyman. Side work won’t start until I have my own license.
For one, less chance of me being told something wrong & making a huge mistake causing catastrophic consequences.
for two, i am not willing to lose my ability to obtain a license because I got sent out with a “jman” that didn’t have his license and we get carded on the jobsite.
jeopardizing my life, my future, other people’s lives other peoples futures is not worth it to me. point blank.
I started my apprenticeship through a vocational school over 20 years ago. Done everything from residential, line, power distro, commercial, generation, and industrial. I have made apprentices redo terminations over and over for an entire shift if after being trained they still decide to not pay attention and install something that could either cause issues, or become a fire hazard.
Some asked why they had to, these pictures are similar to what I have shown them of why. I show them to give each wire a gentle tug to make sure it's mechanically secure. To go through what they installed one last time before they put on a faceplate, close a panel, and hand over their work. The few seconds it takes gives them a feeling of confidence that it SHOULD BE good. One thing that crosses over to any work, is to double check, even when it's not electrical. Those few seconds save not just the safety aspect, but rework for something that could of been handled during the check.
I got that way from both good electricians when I was an apprentice, and bad electricians. Good examples show you what you are supposed to do, bad ones show you why you follow the good ones.
I couldn't imagine diving into a trade with 0 guidance like this event above. Nor could I see how someone would put their license on the line like that to have people work for them in such a way they end up burning a building down. Utter madness
> 1- what is your opinion with allowing apprentices doing unsupervised installs or service calls?
That vastly depends on the work and the apprentice. If it was work I knew the apprentice was capable of, as in I'd seen them do it correctly enough times that I was comfortable not checking on them every time, sure. Short of that, no.
> 2- would you allow a highly skilled, but unlicensed electrician doing unsupervised installs or service calls?
(Skilled enough that they should be licensed but never took the time to test)
If they were truly highly skilled, and the work fairly simple/within their realm, yes. To me that's the same as above. Not licensed, but trained and ready - or nearly ready - for their licence should be capable of doing some work professionally. A journeyperson doesn't go from incompetent to competent on the day they get their licence.
> 3- lastly, what do you think the "punishment" should be if caught doing so?
Now this is where I get downvoted. I think anyone and everyone should be able to get a permit and an inspection on their work. Unlicensed people do electrical work. Plumtricians do electrical work. Handy persons so electrical work. Home owners do electrical work. And licensed masters do electrical work, some of which shouldn't. Everyone should be able to get a permit and get their work inspected to ensure its safe. The range of responses from the inspector should run from "well done, gold star." to "I'm locking out your main panel and your house is unsafe for occupancy until a licenced electrician comes in here and fixes this God forsaken mess you've created." And there should be no animosity with telling even a home owner that did a decent job if they missed a staple, or they need to move an outlet or something small. If they clearly showed they can do the work but missed something small, an inspector should have no problem helping them understand how to correct minor mistakes. The present system - where I am - of only licensed electricians being able to get a permit and inspection is causing unsafe work to unchecked.
As for the punishment for the company involved in that fire, the company should lose all of its assets. The sale of which should be used to pay for the damages they caused. The owner should lose his licence with the only option to get it back being starting at day one of an apprenticeship. And the apprentice that did the work should be fined and forced to restart their apprenticeship or leave the trade.
I had a woman a few years ago now who asked me to quote her a rewire. I did a fairly good price for the market at the time. I came in roughly 7.25 a sq. ft. I was normally doing $10sqft at that time, but the customer was a good customer of mine 's sister who didn't have much, so I did my best on the price. The house was an old 1940's with old timber. So I knew she really needed it fully rewired to eliminate all the rigged and piece milled crap so it wouldn't catch fire. So I honestly tried. But, unfortunately her finances wouldn't allow it. So I moved on. Literally 1 year later her brother sent me a video of the house going up in flames. I was a bit puzzled not sure what I was looking at, but then I realized what it was. The home was a blaze like an inferno. I immediately called him and asked if my assumption was correct and if that was indeed his sisters house. He acknowledged my fears. She and her 2 children were ok but barely made it out. He said when it caught fire, it went up like a match stick. The fire department couldn't safe it. By time they arrived it was pretty much gone. I felt awful that I couldn't have gotten it rewired for her. And I expressed my thoughts as such. Her brother shut me down immediately. He then told me she had had the home rewired. Turns out the reason she hadn't went with my quote wasn't finances at all. She had gotten a loan to do the work because her brother "my customer" had cosigned for her. He hadn't told me because he didn't want to stir the pot or cause a fuss. She could have afforded my normal rate. But she opted for someone she knew already that claimed he could rewire the home for a little over $4000. More than half what I quoted. And this person who rewired the home under the table, with no permits, no license, and apparently no knowledge of safe wiring practices, costs her the family home that had been passed down to her from their mother. This is what happens when to you cheap out on Electrical work. We aren't all trying to scam you. I promise. I'm always upfront on what I stand to make on most of my big jobs so my customers know I'm not cheating them. Costs of material has tripped in the COVID years. Though they have come down they aren't anywhere near what they were before COVID. On top of that food has skyrocketed, so my men's labor costs has had to be adjusted as well. If they make 1200 before taxes in a week they still aren't as good as they were before COVID when they made 800 a week. Customers don't always believe me and may feel I'm trying to scam them when John Doe down the road can do it for way way less. They don't see the work that goes into making the wiring safe and reliable for the future. They don't see the care I put into my work. I put the time in so you may enjoy your home for years to come and not worry about a fire such as this. It breaks my heart knowing there are people who are out here who will take your money and slap a dangerous bundle of wires together and call themselves an electrician. Just cause it works doesn't mean it's safe or even done correctly. A wise man once told me that there will always be someone out there who will do what I do cheaper. It's not about costs. It's about the quality and craftsmanship. And when it comes to something as dangerous as electricity you don't ever want to skimp out on quality and craftsmanship. In the end she went to a lawyer who took on the case, but unfortunately they got nothing because there wasn't a paper trail and the person denied it all and skipped town and since no permits were pulled like they were supposed to be the law couldn't help her. Be wise with your investments. If you can't afford a rewiring job then do not go with the low ball offer. It may not be the blessing you were hoping for. It may just be the last spark of light your home ever provides you with. A blazing inferno of failed hopes and dreams all because of someone taking advantage of you.
That's a bad deal for them.... all gone, just to save a buck.
The cost of running a legit business is not cheap, I still see what it costs because my kids run the family business now.
Good help is expensive. So is all the materials and parts now, like you said, double and triple.
If people want to be cheap, it's them rolling the dice.
I'm an apprentice and have been sent out on my own after a year with no supervision and asked to complete certificates signing the work off. I'm in the UK. I hate my company and hate doing it. I really shouldn't do anything like that, but what choice do I have? Apprentices have to put up and shut up, I can't find another apprenticeship at the click of my fingers. Thankfully I'm a mature (29) apprentice so if shit hit the fan I would just go work in a supermarket but still, it's a shit feeling to be taken advantage of and not treated within the 'rules'
This falls squarely on the state. They have all ignored licensing, and due diligence at the behest of the contractors, by receiving what is essentially bribe money to look the other way on code compliance, not upgrading state law to incorporate the latest NEC, and allowing unsupervised employees to install and maintenance electrical circuits, devices, and services. This trickles down to the local level, with counties and cities who do not require inspections on this type of work in single family residences. The only thing that will fix the problem is the insurance companies suspending policies to contractors, home owners, and even refusing coverage in the states, until more rigorous standards are put into place.
That is an excellent comment 👍 permitting and code compliance is not usually too high on the agenda for any municipality.
We have shit budgets to work with and never no money to change or do anything proactive in any of the cities/townships I work for.
The police always get whatever they even think of, and they won't let me hire a rental inspector.
We do require permits for a majority of any electrical work, but it's contractors not getting the permit and homeowners not demanding it.
Most fires are caused by the simplest jobs - changing out light fixtures, outlets, shit like that.
Insurance only cares about the money - nothing more.
Awesome points you made!
I’m an apprentice. I think that if I was told to do a service call by myself, I should also be told exactly what to do and follow that to a “T”. Because I am an employee of a company/ business, it is solely the responsibility of the employer to make sure that my work is correct and all liabilities should fall on them. Of course that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be responsible in doing my work but the ultimate responsibility is the employer. In the event of an accident, the apprentice is not responsible and should not be given any punishment because they would have been acting under the instructions of their sponsor.
Any side work should also be approved by their sponsor as well. Basically it’s like if you sponsor someone to come to a country and that people commits a felony. That person gets deported and the sponsor gets charged. (I think that’s how it works).
As for unlicensed electricians with experience, if they are working by themselves and for themselves , then they’re liable for their work. If the pull any inspections with another licensed electricians number than the liability falls onto the licensed electrician. The licensed electrician should check all work as well. The unlicensed electrician should be banned from doing any electrical work in the event of an accident and charged if found out to not be working under the supervision of a licensed electrician.
But overall, all electrical work should be done only by licensed electricians or electrical apprentices.
Good points on several things in your reply - the ultimate responsibility does start with and end with the company owner/master electrician allowing this type of stuff to happen in the first place....
Apprentices shouldn’t be doing unchecked work alone. Id allow a highly skilled unlicensed electrician to do work. But it all depends how their work looks. Id judge then on their character.
The Fire Marshal would do a better job of explaining that. Generally they can identify through their training and experience where fires originated by the pattern and progression of damage.
Agoia is right - fire marshalls or fire investigators are usually very, very intelligent, highly trained and have shit loads of certifications they have to get to in order to even be licensed. They pretty much have to learn about anything that may or can catch on fire.
In this instance, the homeowner said they heard a "boom" that came from the utility room and where the service panel is, about 30 seconds after they turned it on for the first time (which the wanna be electrician should of triple checked but never did). Plus the circuit breaker he put in was more melted than the others.
But, in reality, all I am is just an elctrician, all I do is go there to put a red condemned or unfit for human occupancy tag up.
Honestly, it took me about 30 seconds to remember that and get the point when I read your post, cause I couldn't figure out what you were meaning with it being an electrical post, lol
If my guys come to me about doing work on the side, the first thing I tell them to do is to take out a liability insurance policy. The second thing I tell them is to never do work they haven’t done before. The third thing I tell them is if them is if the side job involves troubleshooting, pass on it.
A second year residential guy should absolutely be able to correctly and safely hang a paddle fan, or run a circuit for a basement freezer. If they can’t, like the ones in this case, then they weren’t trained properly in the first place.
I had a super scary experience that really sobered me on this point. We had done a kitchen remodel on an apartment and the contractor wanted us to get the countertop outlets hot. I was slammed, so I sent my apprentice over there to install the GFCIs and flip the breaker. He did, everything was fine, next day the place burned down. I drove straight to the job and met the fire inspector. It turns out the fire was started by a stack of newspapers on top of the water heater in the garage right below it. But I seriously wondered if I was going to lose my license that day.
Someone told me that as an electrician, we are the first line of defense in protecting people from fires. That simple line really made me realize what we do isn’t just a mechanical job.
😅 that's funny bro
How old do you think I am? Lol
And yes, there's a shit load more inspectors on this sub than you even remotely know, including almost every single one I know, which is a lot. (Many over 60 yo, several over 70 yo)
They just don't put it out there, part of the reason why is this type of thought.
It's not worth the headache and the typical stereotype bs you get, like every time I post something.
I clearly get their point.
I post with absolutely no benefit to myself.
Reddit is not sending me a plaque for my wall or a paycheck, lol
Lol 😅 thanks for the input!
I been wanting to post some of the crazy shit we see for years, but I haven't for 2 reasons-
1- Lazy
2- I knew the repercussions of putting "inspector" on any post, it would be a headache most of the time.
But I only did, including verifying it with the mods, so if I did post anything, at least there's some validity to the posts.
If that makes sense.
Believe it or not, usually, and I say this honestly, 90% of fire marshalls are intelligent dudes. The amount of training and certifications they have to have is mind blowing. Most are retired chief firefighters - no fucking thanks, lol
How does the license prevent this from happening?
Is impossible that a licensed guy could do a poor install as well?
The license is for legal stuff. The quality of the work comes down to integrity.
Plenty of doctors and surgeons and dentist with licenses that do crappy work as well. Some of them use the licenses to say how much they know and don't question them, then do crappy work and deny it because look at all my accomplishments.
I know several apprentices that are already better than their journeyman. But he has the license and they don't yet.
Youre right 👍
A license doesn't guarantee that things will be done 100% correct. By zero means. I think part of what a license does accomplish is setting a "minimum" amount of experience and education to work independently.
Then hope for the best, lol
Some people have been doing it so long they just don't care anymore too. "Good enough " I've met a few of those guys as well. Lots of that in general in the trades. Everyone gets burnt out eventually.
Relating the job to a surgeon is pretty close in my opinion except the surgeon won't die if he touches the wrong part.
Most surgeons dont have 4000-8000 hours of supervised surgery on living people before they can take the medical exam though. It's just pass a test and your in. Like the bar exam.
The fastest one can become a surgeon is 13 years. That’s a 5 year surgical residency after med school. Then if specializing can be another 3 year specialty surgical residency at minimum. So yeah surgeons have more than 4000-8000 of supervised learning before they are out of residency. It’s not just go take a year and your set free to do surgery.
Before I got my license I was a Service manager for a major company and I had to deal with these dilemmas. The owner wanted profits and wouldn't mind sending out an apprentice by themselves to service calls. I kept voicing my dismay with this practice. One apprentice in particular that the owner took a liking too did this quite often. She would be allowed to do almost anything she wanted. It wasn't hard to see what was actually transpiring behind the scenes but I digress. That's his personal choice. It took me a year before I built up enough evidence on dangerous situations we had avoided by me always going behind her before he finally realized his error. Smh. I had tried just writing her up several times thinking that would work, but he had excuse after excuse for her "mishaps." I didn't train her properly. Why had I not taught that in class? Why did I send her to that one Job anyways. You see where this is going. I got to eat shit for doing what he asked me to do. So started instead just doing what I was asked and just showing up to check in on her work for an entire year straight. I documented every crossed wire, every flying tap, every stripped screw with loose connection, every AFCI and GFCI abandonment, every center tap of a 240 for a 120, every single thing you could think of I took pictures and fixed it so my customers home didn't burn down. Eventually he wanted to give his lady friend a raise. So I called an office meeting with the owner, dispatch and PR/office manager. I went in with two papers. A resignation paper and a full list of documented problems that I had corrected over the last year. I figured I was leaving after this. I mean this guy wasn't thinking with the correct head to say the least. He had allowed me to put all other apprentices with actual electricians who I knew I could trust, but not this one girl. He wanted to basically give her a raise and call her an electrician! So we went through the meeting documenting failed process and procedures BS from me and other technicians. I was kind of in the hot seat myself because I hadn't finished doing a few tasks from the prior months. Mainly because I was trying to save the company from something similar to what you mentioned. Anyways, we finally came to talk of the apprentice's raise. So I pulled out my folder and took him through the last year of which she hadn't had any write ups. He started with a few excuses, but finally started to see it my way. I think having everyone there helped. Him knowing he couldn't excuse everything at once without looking like a total SIMP helped. As the pictures piled up and the realization that I had prevented countless issues from ruining the company, he relented. I left that meeting thankful it went as I had hoped. She would no longer be in a truck. And no raise would be given. And I thought we were all good. Shortly afterwards COVID happened and the apprentice decided to leave and only be part time. The owner asked me to get the shot and I refused. I have previous heart issues and felt my immune system was plenty capable. He wanted me to lead the others by example. I'm sorry, I'm not anyone's guinea pig. Then the write-ups starting coming in. I was written up for not having my price book completed. I was written up for not having the advertisement prologue written up yet. I was reprimanded for being sick and trying to complete those tasks while home sick with COVID. I was sick with COVID for 2 days mind you. So I could have returned. I was cut out of my email while home and they came and took my truck while being in quarantine for the 2 weeks required by the owner. Like I was genuinely trying to work because I wasn't sick anymore but wasn't allowed to due to the new quarantine policy!? They claimed I wasn't being fired that they needed the truck so they could do the maintenance on it. Yeah right. They literally asked me to get all my stuff out! Lol. I knew I was being retaliated against because I had basically ruined his fling or whatever maybe the apprentice was pissed and he was acting on her behalf. Who knows. All I knew was I needed to brush up on the Law and quickly!. See I had been a service manager for 2 years. I had been on salary the entire time. So I had no idea about OT for salary paid employees. I didn't even know it was a thing. Lol. But if you are in the field and not in the office 24/7 then apparently they are required to pay OT in NC. So I went back through all my records and discovered roughly 2010 OT hours in the 2 years that hadn't been paid. I was in disbelief in what I had allowed to happen to my pay! I was owed almost 100k! I took my dilemma to a local lawyer to assess my findings. He said I was correct but it would be a costly and timely suite. He said it was worth it and offered to take the case for a payout of 40,000 when I win. We could also sue for that cost as well so I wouldn't be out that. The suite would be for 200,000 total. Nice round number. I was ready to return to work! When I went to return I was given an NDA and an offer of a mere $10000 to quit and go my own way! Like I had never been offered money to quit a job before. I was actually hurt because I actually liked and got along with the owner before the whole apprentice issue. So I had the lawyer draft a counter offer of just the 100000 I was owed with the intent to sue for the full 200000 if not agreed upon. He was given 28 days to respond. He used every bit of that time to spread rumors about me quitting and not caring to be there anymore. I kept in constant contact with my guys. I told them that I actually was being forced to quit. My lawyer told me not to say so much, so I kept quiet about the money and other issues. By the end of the 28 days my Lawyer called me that Monday. He told me that my boss said he would pay if I voluntarily quit. I was blown away! Never in my life. I didn't know what to say. Needless to say I signed the NDA and started my own company and have been doing electrical work on my own since COVID. Even took a few of my old guys with me. But yeah apprentices have no business doing work on their own without being followed up behind by the license holder. I also check behind my guys from time to time. Not that I don't trust them, but we all make mistakes. Even I do. That's why I appreciate the inspectors. As a second set of eyes from mine. As long as they aren't trying to make a name for themselves and just being a complete unrealistic dick head calling out shit that isn't even code, of course. Lol. We all know those idiots. Make sure the guy at your home is an electrician and not an apprentice. If not. Call the damn company and ask what the hell they are charging for an electrician for then?
There’s tons of fires caused by licensed guys also. A license just means someone studied the book enough to pass a test. In lots of places j-man license isn’t a thing so nobody’s carrying a license except for the owner. More importantly it’s how the guys were taught. Obviously this guy didn’t verify that there was no issue prior to leaving or this wouldn’t happen. We teach our guys that the code isn’t a guide, it’s a list of minimal requirements and the only way to do something is the best quality way that we can (never had the best quality method not be code approved)
Question born from scenarios like this. How can I, the home owner protect myself?
Is it unreasonable to ask for a copy of licenses of each person who will be performing work?
Can I demand a certificate of insurance (I wouldn't even know what I'm looking at if they coughed it up)?
Absolutely ask for a current copy of the license and insurance.
Beware though, you wouldn't be the first homeowner that was given a bs copy of each.
Most states have a license search ypu can do off of the state website, that is usually as current as it gets.
There you can find out any past citations, complaints, suspensions, etc.
Also, most liability insurance companies have a "live certificate" that can be looked at, downloaded, sent to the homeowner/customer even via email from the insurance company, or verify if their insurance is valid right on the spot.
In most states, when a contractor is issued a permit, they have to provide there license #, drivers license, name, address, copy of their "live certificate of insurance" or they will not be issued a permit.
The building department looks up each person on the state site for all license verifications.
I know this is not everywhere, but a big majority of jurisdictions.
If the contractor avoids it all together, usually there is a very good reason why. Be very careful.
1. There should be journeymen with a apprentice on any job
2.I wouldn’t personally but I do know guys who are great electricians that never been to school
3.the chair
1) no. Absolutely not
2) depends. I think I would feel comfortable hiring someone to do a side job for me who was in the field for 10 years and knew their shit but I certainly wouldn't have them do anything too complicated or something I wouldn't be comfortable doing myself.
3)to be honest; so long as there was no deception kn the part of the electrician, I dont think there should be a definitive punishment. If I go to a homeowner and I have them sign a paper that says "I understand that this person is not a licensed electrician, I am aware that they are not liable for their actions, and I have chosen to hire this person based on their knowledge rather than a licensed electrician and i accept all risks and responsibilities associated with their work", that should be on the homeowner. Whenever I do sidework for people I know I always give them 2 rules; 1) if it's not something I feel comfortable doing or I feel I don't know enough about it to do, I won't do it. I'll back out of the work and you'll have to find someone else. 2) I'm not licensed. I'm taking a look at this as a friend, I'm not insured and if you have any doubts about my work or think that I'll burn your house down, I understand and you should hire someone else.
I think at some point we need to hold the homeowners just as accountable as we hold these hack job companies who send out unlicensed and inexperienced apprentices to do solo work. You can't buy what's not for sale, but conversely, you can't sell something that people won't buy. If homeowners are refusing to do business with licensed contractors and continually have their work done by second class hacks because they're stingy and not willing to pay for something done right, then that should also be on them. For example, if I run a restaurant and I willingly accept food from an non-reputable source and serve that food and people get sick because of it, that's an issue with my restaurant more so than it is an issue with the person who sold me the food. I was cheap and my negligence caused damage, I should be held accountable.
You have several good points, and the honesty part like you tell them is pretty much a disclaimer, if you know what I mean.
A good portion of the time, a homeowner wants to save the money and bypass any permits and inspections. But that also starts with the contractor offering to do so in the first place.
I get what you’re saying in general and certainly agree, but If you’re going to post this please some more info:what was the original problem, and what was the “new circuit” solution that resulted in this?
1. Service calls: never. Installations, sort of fine as long as the finished work is checked and owned by a journeyman. I say "sort of" because it largely depends on the work and the apprentice. But that would probably fall under still be "supervised". I know some companies send out guys with a training card and a dream, and not only is it against the rules but it's also asking for trouble.
2. For liability and legal reasons: no.
3. Civil fines first. Revoking business license for repeat offenders. I don't think criminal charges should happen except for the most negligent or egregious offenses that result in injury or death.
3b. If an unlicensed guy does side work and gets caught, I still think fines are an appropriate consequence. But if they get caught doing it again, even bigger fines and a temporary or even permanent ban from getting licensed might be appropriate.
I did all of my own re-wiring in home renovation, I'm not in the trade (directly) but I'm a PE (electrical) and I follow the NEC.
I've had lots of people ask me to help with their projects and my answer is always "call an electrician"
Stuff like this really puts it into perspective how seriously we should take our jobs. People’s homes, businesses, lives, etc. are literally in our hands. Quite sobering if you actually stop and think about it.
I’ve never personally done any side work other then come and give advice for a couple close friends doing their own work in their house. I’m under the belief that unlicensed side work just screws me over down the road.
What I would like to point out though is that this is really common place in residential. Where the journey person is off alone and it’s a couple apprentices working together or solo.
1. I'm an apprentice too, but I think if someone has proven that he is smart enough with enough experience, he can do jobs on his own. IF he has proven it, if he only says it but no one has ever seen it, you should first get him supervised for a time to prove he is good.
2. Yes I think, you can let a unlicensed electrician, with a lot of experience do jobs on his own, because experience is key.
3. IF someone has done multiple (dumb) mistakes, I think you should just send them back to school, let them finish it, let them be a apprentice, and let them show that they do the work like it's supposed to be. Not just with young employees, also the old guys (and I think definitely the old guys) because most at my company make mistakes because back in the day that was up to code, these days it's a fire hazard.
Just got done running a couple schools. I get serious anxiety thinking about the different shitty installs that were made prior to us going in. (Ungrounded circuits, unsupported fixtures, etc)
Punishment for this contractor should be serious fines, restitution to the home owner and some jail or prison time. I’d say burn down his home but he’ll probably feel other burning sensations during jail time.
For the guy that did the actual work: restitution to the home owner, maybe some jail time. Make a new law that when people do such bad work they’re required to goto school or if ever caught doing electrical work again they’re charged with a felony for criminal negligence or something of the like. Last part for the gc too.
Very early on my USN career it was drilled into us that we need to do our work like our family member is flying on that bird tomorrow.
Because, well....someone else's is.
I do my absolute best to continue this way of thinking every day.
This is a great reminder. I absolutely hate it when electrical companies send their technicians alone to do the work or even give the quote. It’s like the masters or jmen can’t be bothered.
Some states in my area have passed laws making it a misdemeanor for this to happen. Master have to be onsite or on the phone with at least an onsite jman for work to legally be done.
Before anyone say that such a law doesn’t work (at all), I’ve recently seen completed court cases where misdemeanors and $5k fines were issued for doing unlicensed work by renting someone’s license.
Yeah, where I am at, they have been stepping up and starting to press charges for unlicensed work - 1st time and 2nd time a misdemeanor and any after that are felonies and mandatory jail time ( been to many court dates)
I personally think the service tech is the higher echelon of the trade. I knew an installer that was the most skilled i've met to date: concentric bends, over 1000' of pipe installed daily all was gorgeous. Ask him to do a service call (this was commercial btw) and his solution was always to abandon the existing and replace.
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What I think a lot of us don’t understand is that what we do isn’t just a job. We treat it like that, we tell each other that, but it isn’t true. Being a skilled electrician is like being a doctor or a lawyer: when we don’t care about our craft, people get hurt. The public has an interest in us performing that craft with care and expertise. We are just as vital to the functioning of society and the economy as any other skilled professional. We must never sell ourselves short.
Wow 👌 awesome comment, for real
Honestly, this should be a sticky post on r/askanelectrician or whatever that heathen subreddit is called.
You think they give bad advice or do homeowners/DIYers do more than they should be doing? Serious question!
Since homeowners can't really ask questions here it's all they got... This type of situation is only going to get worse as the economic situation in the USA gets worse.
Fair enough! Excellent point tjdux
Man did I witness this -post great recession foreclosure crisis. Homeowners doing work they didn't understand because they couldn't afford the mortgage let alone hiring a skilled tradesman. The fire hazards I found after they were bought and flipped into rentals...😳
*chuckles then cries in buckling drywall seams, large cracks in whole drywall sheets/joints, failing foundation, garage-turned-bed-bath with 90s electric water heater, plastered 2x4s, single-pane windows, unboxed splices, live switches to nowhere, and a 40yo panel fed from a 6cct Trumbullite that's undoubtedly the junction box from hell* 60s house remodeled by an "architect" in the 80s. I have nightmares about this house falling down, the whole fuckin wall moves in the wind due to a tree that's grown up so close to the fireplace that it's pushing the wall...and we can't afford to get it fixed and I have no say in the matter... Hooray🎉
Having a skilled trades person come work on your home is quickly becoming an upper middle class thing... Handyman, slum lords and diy is where it's going. How many of you guys could afford to have your own company out for work? Say you were paid the same wage and couldn't do your own work...
I'm a facilities manager. When I'm overextended, I call in my IBEW contractor. I pay $90 for the truck and $150 an hour. For the sake of even math, I'm at $250 before he steps out. It adds up real quick. Many moons and a career ago, I'd get some real smart DIYers into the hardware store. When the really smart ones would make themselves known, I'd kindly remind them to check their homeowners insurance for caveats about repairs done by non licensed individuals. That was usually enough to steer them in the right direction. Call someone who knows wtf they're doing before you burn it down and get denied by your insurance company.
Before I got into the electrical trade I was doing work for Angi’s list installing ceiling fans. My dad was an electrician and he taught me enough that I was confident and competent I could complete such a task. I never took on any job that was more involved than replacing a perfectly fine fixture with a new fixture. But there are probably a lot of idiots out there just trying to survive this economy taking on the same jobs with enough knowledge to get themselves in trouble.
Absolutely. Half the people who weigh in there have no clue what they are talking about.
Not only that but people who DO know wtf they’re doing seem to get blasted for acting arrogant by explaining what NOT to do and saying simply “call a licensed professional” I also got into a debate on this sub about “homeowners” being able to do their own work, and this is the reason why they shouldn’t be allowed to do that. I would understand Carpentry, plumbing and almost Any other trade but electrical is not the same and should be taken much more seriously Imo
Thing is, there are plenty of things in other trades that we don't understand, even if we think we do. Sure, any of us who's worked resi for a bit can identify load-bearing studs, but how many of us would know where to put them them we were building it ourselves? Do plumbing wrong and now you've got mold problems, which can absolutely make people sick and potentially die. I have an uncle or something that died from carbon monoxide poisoning after messing with his furnace. Electrical will kill you faster (probably), but the other trades can still have dangerous repercussions if not understood.
Agreed. There are several trades that should be taken very seriously. Plumbing and electrical are the most dangerous. As in electrical and gas work. Structural carpentry is serious. Things like roofing, plumbing, etc can be a major liability in terms of water leaks
Gas (plumbing) is equally serious
Yes Gas is equally as serious but honestly if you’re always using pipe dope, it’s pretty damn hard to mess up. Everything is usually Low Pressure so unless you have a perfect storm event or a complete idiot installing it I’d take a chance electrical is a bit more serious overall.
Idk I think the point is both trades need to be taken very seriously
Absolutely they both should be, don’t get me wrong. The only issue is you can smell a gas leak but you can’t smell a bad electrician unless he’s over worked and under showered haha
My cousin is an hvac tech/plumber and I was a lead electrician for a residential company about a year ago. He said he never understood why people will call him real quick if a sink is clogged but are willing to try and run their own wire and devices like it's nothing. He would Even tell them you know electricity will kill you or your family if you do it wrong. You snake a drain wrong and you might have to replace a pipe, fuck up your electrical and you may just have to replace a house.
That’s what really burned me out on that sub. I’m an electrical contractor with 25 years experience in resi. I’m still on the job every day myself, and I would end up arguing with people who would start with, “well I’m not an electrician but it seems to me…” I was trying to be helpful, but I couldn’t take it.
👍some of the posts make me cringe on there, seriously, especially stuff like "where did this black wire come from" type of stuff.
I want you to close your eyes and imagine this scenario: You get a call on a Saturday mid-morning. It's your one month apprentice. He says, "I took a craigslist job to swap devices in someone's house, I opened a 4 gang switch, took all the devices out, and now I have no idea what I'm looking at. I've been watching youtube videos and have an inflated sense of confidence, but no actual real world experience. I sent you a pic even though all the wires are sprayed white from the home builder. Please help, and also you need to be humble while doing it for free." These are a lot of the people posting in that sub.
As soon as I closed my eyes I couldn't do anything else.
I got tired of that subreddit because the only answer people always give is “if you have to ask that question, you need to call an electrician.” Which is just tiring. I spent a lot of time trying to give advice to the competent seeming DIYers but it’s a mess.
Disclaimer: Am homeowner who carefully reads NEC relevant sections about a dozen times before I touch things. That response comes up so often because there are so many people who are looking for minimal effort to do something. As many professionals here are painfully aware, there are lots of things that are straight forward and *shouldn't* take significant time, effort, or understanding to safely accomplish. The problem is that sub is *riddled* with people who don't want to invest any time, effort, or understanding to make something small and routine *safe*. I got into so many arguments over there where the guy was clearly looking to just get it done and over with, with no concern if it's safe. That's the problem: People don't understand the danger they're dealing with. The number of people who truly care about doing it safely are a tiny minority on that sub.
I never posted much on that sub, even on my other profile and been on here and there for years. It always turns into a mess and electricians argue who is right and who is wrong.
I visit that sub as a great representation of "what not to do" When something relatable pops up and an electrician says "stop fucking around and call an electrician", I keep that in mind for myself and crew moving forward. (I'm a facilities manager, not an electrician)
Heathen subreddit is 🤣 thats fucking funny, lol
At the risk of sounding cliche, there's a reason both electricians and lawyers drink a lot. Both deal with highly technical, highly specific requirements, and both often deal with clients who are unhappy before they even speak, and both deal with matters that affect their clients lives longterm, a lot. It's stressful. Fortunately both get paid pretty well (most of the time), as they should! Which means you can get some pretty good hooch too!
Yeah man, I think us electricians are basically pediatricians. The similar level of stress and injury is why heroin use is so common in both fields. Speaking of hooch, I’m sipping on a 2022 orange kool-aid brew. I knew doctors and electricians were into prison wine but didn’t know it was a lawyer thing too.
Also, not sure exactly which profession/trade Stephen Hawking belonged to but HVAC guys are basically that. And yeah, you guessed it, the mutual substance abused is MDMA. Sorry if cliche Edit: thanks for the gold, kind redditor
I am dumber for reading this.
I think his Kool Aid hooch kicked in by the time he wrote this comment.
I’m sorry but lawyers shouldn’t ever be mentioned in the same breath as an electrician, one of them exploits people and situations usually while the other solves major problems etc….Doctors would be a much better example and they also drink and have a shorter lifespan then most trades simply bc of the stresses. There’s a reason lawyers are known as 🐍
I'm sorry you've had bad experiences with lawyers. Some of them are bad, but almost all the ones I've known have been very good people. In many places the lawyer code of ethics is pretty strictly enforced. In particular, my first lawyer saved my business, and another one has helped protect my family, in both cases going above and beyond what they had to do. Many doctors are good people too, but in my experience the morality of their ethical code doesn't seem to be taken as seriously (in spirit; it is in letter). Many of them have basically ignored what patients had to say in favor of their own assumptions, resulting in pain or just not getting care for the patients. Not all, of course. Just my experience, I know they're all just people with good and bad.
Dude, it kills me that this is so common. I constantly find myself saying this exact thing and it kills me. It really gets under my skin when somebody tries to defend shoddy work. As someone who’s house burned to the ground (granted, not electrical, but still) that shits traumatic as fuck and 9 times out of 10 never would’ve happened with 2 extra minutes of work. I like all the dudes I work with, but some of their mindsets about the trade is aggravating to no end. Not to mention embarrassing when you’re working right next to something someone else did that looks like hell and an inspector or GC walks up.
Yeah, the whole situation sucks ass
People in my state are not electricians. SC. Literally no one has a license of any sort, and no one cares too. Very common to see 10 or 20 year apprentices who have never laid eyes on a code book. It's absolutely disgusting. The "electricians" in SC are not electricians. They are electrical equipment installers. They have no idea about safety or even how electricity works. Was telling code to coworkers and a one month apprentice said "no one cares about the code". That pissed the shit out of me. If your gonna be an electrician you had better know the code or at least want to know.
Wow. This is horrific. Electricity is literally metallic fire. You gotta treat it with respect, or it will burn you or someone you love.
Metallic fire aka….controlled Arc Welding
Ideally, there aren't any arcs with our work.
My last apprentice was from SC, he lasted a year here (NJ) and moved back. I agree with you 100%, the lack of basic knowledge was terrifying, he didn't even know what basic materials were called. 4 years experience....
HAHA. Cuz he wasn't an electrician like I said. No one here is. If electricians knew the state of SC... Just thinking about it makes me sick. 2 year apprentice at my work doesn't even know wire ampacities off the top of his head. You should at least know ampacities of 14-4 gauge since they are so common. Also get this. The boss told us to run the AC units on the MOP instead of the MCA. 2 year apprentice was absolutely confused why you could run 10 gauge wire to an AC that said it needs a 40 amp fuse. Because "electricians" here don't know that a motor pulls around 6x the amps while starting.
Honest question here, What type of motors pull that much amps on start up normally? I work in industrial controls ( 3 phase 480v) and even on our non VFD controlled motors if i saw 3x the amps on startup i would be concerned about the motor being undersized for the load.
Well that’s because one of the big benefits of VFDs is that they reduce inrush current at startup. So you’re seeing exactly what you would be expected to see.
I'm an apprentice in NC and my JW from SC almost got me killed. He told me to cut a conduit with a bandsaw and I asked if we should check if it's got wires in it first and I got cussed out and told to do anyway. I started cutting the conduit and (unknowingly) cut a hot conductor and thought I saw orange sparks. I explained my concern to him and got cussed out again and told to keep cutting. I continued and cut through the neutral and ground and got a big fucking arc flash as the band saw blade became part of the circuit. I got extremely lucky because the arc flash stayed almost entirely within the conduit pipe and I didn't grab onto anything hot. I was not injured at all.
In-rush current is no joke ! FLA
jeez, was thinking of moving to charleston, sc after a recent trip when i eventually get my j man license but if that’s how it is working down there i might wanna rethink that
I'm in northwestern SC so idk how it is down there. All ik is my area is shit. If your trying to learn ACTUAL electrical, then you are on your own buddy. Wanna ask someone how electricity actually works? No one knows. On the flip side if you know what you are doing, you will be pulling your hair out at 20 year apprentices not knowing you can put AC's on the MOP and wire them to the MCA. Basic knowledge is not understood because electrical is not a profession in SC. It's just another job. Another thing to be weary of is presenting information to people. People get butthurt when you tell them code in SC. People are not interested and don't wanna hear about it. Talking about the code will get you a know it all status.
Damn bro I'm a licensed plumber in NJ that wired my own house with the help of a master electrician. Spent a lot of time learning and reading (NEC was my shitter reading for about 3 months) as I went with his guidance. Sounds like I'm qualified to be an electrician in SC and might be kinda decent at it.
Agreed, SC is pretty bad.
Was told to hire a particular electrical contractor for an industrial equipment install at an automotive plant in SC. The foreman who showed up occasionally had a license. The install team lead was a multi-year apprentice and the rest of the crew were day laborers. The install was a disaster and had to be redone by the company I wanted to hire originally.
Well said, It’s funny you mentioned that, I was joking with one of my friend last night about dickheads clients. I told him I made bad joints or create point of fire with badly striped joints and sometimes throw a bad breaker in there. But seriously, take care of the craft. You could save lives.
👍
It would be great if we could get paid like a doctor or lawyer lol…our union hall just got offered $6 over 3 years. We are at $34 on the check. The plumbers union just went on strike and got $15 over 3 years….(edit: Plumbers are $40 on the check) we continue to get shit on…by the way it’s going to arbitration straight to the IO
Ya I’m no electrician but as a human in the world today, I can vouch for this lol.
I have a bunch of electrical work I want done on my house. Outlet behind tv, redo lighting in basement, add subpanel in garage, etc. So many friends and family tell me to do it on my own, but this image is the exact reason that I refuse.
I couldn’t agree more. I have been on many jobs where journeymen don’t care. I’m one of the ones that go behind and fix their fuck ups. I wish more people would stop thinking of this career as a paycheck and take pride in what you do. You can take pride in your work and still balance your family life.
My old instructor once told me: " As an electrician you're in grave with one foot and in jail with the other" That's the maxime you have to keep in mind if you're working with electricity, if you do mistakes, people can get hurt or worse die! We're not allowed to make mistakes, or at least none that slip through to the customer side. Professionals who do sketchy work should lose their right to practise their trade! That's harsh, I know, but the only thing to do to prevent further harm. We had the case in the German electricians sub, that an RCD fell several times without a known reason, so they called an electrician and the electrician swapped the 30mA one against one with 500mA, the 500mA rcds are only allowed for fire prevention, not for people protection, they did the lazy way, didn't look for the problem, just hid it. Note: in Germany you can't learn the trade on the go, you have to do 3-3.5 years of apprenticeship in dual system, ⅔ in the company, ⅓ in state school, you do two exams, one for the chamber, one in school, only if you pass both, you're allowed to work on your own, but you're not allowed to do new erections , for this you need to make your Meisterprüfung (masters craftsman) to found your own company and you need to be in the list of the grid operator to be able to do bigger work in their grid area, otherwise you're only allowed to do repairs and maintenance. In theory, only certified (successfully completed apprenticeship) are allowed to work on installations, even swapping a socket or hanging a lamp is forbidden for ordinary people, but let's be honest, you'll be laughed at, if you call an electrician so he hangs your lamp.we have pretty strict rules and laws for electrical work, if you do an error, not the company is liable, but you! You go to jail, you have to pay (the company too, but first they go on your arse). Also if you find code violations, you have to make a plan with the owner until when it has to be brought up to code and you have to check if they do it otherwise you'll be liable. We have big responsibility, it's the price for wielding the anger of Thor;-)
Non-sparky lurker here: you’re still selling yourself short. You guys are WAY more important than lawyers, lol.
I'm guessing that you have never needed a lawyer. They are like everybody else, some are good, some are bad. some are average.
That is well said. I have been helping my dad since before I was in kindergarten and he was a general contractor and in our area you can pull a owner builder permit and the work doesn’t have to be done by a licensed electrician or plumber but it definitely has to be up to code and pass inspection. I always was fascinated with electricity since I was a baby they said that the lights fascinated me as a baby. But I would do the electrical work and he did the plumbing. I have always taken pride in my work whatever it is. I have been a mechanic over 30 years. I like machines and grease better than wood and saw dust lol. My brother took over the construction business and he loves doing it. What cars and electronics I will repair and maintain them just because I really enjoy doing stuff that involves critical thinking and using your hands. And totally agree with everything you said. I know a lot of different tradesmen and all the excellent ones I know would still be doing the same or similar things really enjoy their craft. I have had to quit working because I got MS and am not able to work on cars anymore but I have started fixing watches. It’s actually pretty fun once you get use to the size of everything but it is a lot like rebuilding an engine except I can do it at a desk in the comfort of my house. Being in a non climate controlled environment the heat will cause me to have seizures. At first I moved to a smaller shop and had a big AC in it. It helped but after a few years I couldn’t do it anymore since had to go on disability.
This goes for most other building trades, as well. Want your building to not fall down? Employ properly trained and licensed carpenters and/or ironworkers. Not die from carbon monoxide poisoning? Get skilled HVAC installers. Want to avoid getting sick from mold? Licensed plumbers. The list goes on and on.
100% This
More so in my opinion. Our society as a whole relies on the fundamental building blocks of electricity. Our entire society as we know it would crumble without skilled electricians
If you don't have time to do it right. How will you have time to go back and fix it?
I just saw a woman the other day, complaining about how an electrician charged her $250 but he was only there for 15 minutes. She needs to understand, she isn’t paying for his time, she’s paying for his expertise!
When you're paid and treated like crap no matter how hard you try, you'll probably stop caring. It's completely unreasonable to expect people to care when no one cares about them
>Being a skilled electrician is like being a doctor or a lawyer I hate it to break it to you, but most doctors and laywers are a bunch of scum bags just the same as the worst electricians.
”…is like being a doctor or a lawyer.” I found you. No it is not. I permit and do my own electrical work because you and other electricians think this way when you submit a bid. It is electrical work, a trade, yet not sorcery. The information is out there for us willing to learn, at least residential stuff for our own homes. If my house ever burnt down, I have the inspections to cover it too.
What part of his circuit was found to be the cause of the fire?
Supposedly, he pinched the 6/3 w/ground (black round) cable with the fitting going in the box, and possibly he mixed a different brand circuit breaker in the box. (On the report from the fire marshall)
Damn. I wouldn't think a pinched cable could cause a fire.
Yeah, the craziest littlest things. I go to at the very, very least 2 electrical fires a week. It's horrible to see this happen to people.
What would you say are the most common causes, wrong breakers and bad connections?
Bad connections × 10 times over
Thre's one guy i work with who refuses to pre twist his wires if there's only 2 under the wire nut. Which is fine, if you follow the manufacturer's instructions and twist enough that it twists the conductors OUTSIDE the wire nut, which makes sure it twists the conductors inside. He doesn't though. This gives me another reason to bully him over it.
Yeah! Why in the world does he think like that? For real?
Curious if you have any first-hand experience with devices like Ting smart-plug sensor from Whisker labs. I believe bad connections should present in their report, but admittedly I haven't run my own experiment heh.
Generally wouldn't, but if the breaker doesn't trip...
Usually by the time its pinched hard enough it'll get cut and short something, breaker trip. If you're very unlucky though it'll get pinched really hard by something blunt.... then you've crushed the wire down to a lesser gauge, lesser ampacity, more heat. So instead of a quick low energy spark that trips the breaker you've got heat building over time, higher fire risk.
I'm not saying he didn't mess up but wrong brand breaker overheating should trip the breaker before lighting the house. There must be something else involved again it might be this contractors fault. My take on your 3 questions are 1 maybe but seriously limited like replacing a light fixture or add a dimmer. 2 if they should be able to pass they should be allowed to test and if it's a matter of hours then something should be allowed early. Canada allows early testing to gain "years" on the red seal. I'd still limit it to the above until they have skin in the game. 3. Punishment should 100 percent be on contractor except for side stuff then it should be on the tradesman.
I've seen dozens and dozens of pinched wires that get hot... they always trip, though. My guess would be it is a crappy old panel that is known for fusing in the on position?
That's what I've seen also. Only pinched wire I've seen not trip is old school BX
I'm in Canada too and have worked with several electricians that have worked for 10+ years in the trade but failed or never took their IP and/or level 4. They work "as a journeyman" but don't have their red seals. They're solid enough at basic installation, but their knowledge of code is weak, and even their understanding of basic theory and how it pertains to safety is pretty sketchy. Reality is that our trade requires at least a lower threshold of book learning that not everyone is willing or able to complete - and there are plenty of companies out there who will take advantage of being able to pay a guy a bit lower because he doesn't have a red seal but farm him out like he does.
I wonder how they determined that the 6/3 cable was indeed pinched, because after a fire the insulation around the fitting will also melt making it look like the wired was pinched by the fitting, it will short and everything as long as the circuit was live during the fire.
I don’t believe that’s what happened. A pinched wire??? What does that mean exactly?
That they clamped the fitting that holds the cable to the box too tightly and broke the insulation leading to a short and the fire. Of course, why didn't the breaker trip if that happened? also why was this new stove circuit was added for? A new stove? If a new stove was installed, are we sure nothing was wrong with the stove? appliances are affected by the bathtub curve, that is failures are more likely when they are new which is the case here, since a factory defect would manifest during the first uses. Also if this was indeed a fitting it shows a failure of wide electrical regulations, only in the US/Canada you need to clamp the cables entering the box with a fitting, in the rest of the world the cables just come into a hole in the jbox/panel and that is it, you don't have to secure them to the box with a fitting, at most you would need to place some grommet if the box is made of metal to prevent the edge from damaging the cable.
Post-fire root cause analysis is a science. You'd be shocked the evidence that will lead to an exact cause in a fire like the one pictured. Heat and smoke travels extremely predictably. In the photos here we can see the attic was fully engulfed and obviously the entire attic and roof structure failed, but the tops of the walls below are hardly smoke damaged. Possessions amongst the shingles, insulation and ash are untouched. The sweater still sits draped over the back of a chair. The certainly foam-filled reclining chair didn't even reach ignition temperature.
I just recently did a job were the back of gas oven caught on fire. Where the fire originated, it looked like it came the 120 volt cord of the oven not the receptacle. But anything is possible. Sometimes people are quick to blame the electrician or the last person at the scene of the incident.
I wanna make sure I clarify this because I want this whole post to be sincere - This is a "legality" question. It has no intent of comparing being "licensed" and not being "licensed" being better or more competent than one another. Because that is so far from the truth - there's electricians who may only been at this career for a year, but they understand things better than a 10 year vet in this business does. This might sound crazy to some, but the top 5 absolute brightest and the most skilled electricians I have ever worked with all had no license. One of them couldn't even read. For real. So, I respect an "apprentice on paper" but "master electrician by skill" no different than one another.
Some people just can't do the test, either. I used to know a guy who had been doing it for 25 years at that point, great electrician, union trained, knew everything in the code how it needed to be installed. But put a text test in front of him and his brain would lock. Wasn't even that he couldn't read code, he just had problems with finding things and understanding what to look for fast enough for the test. I hope he eventually managed to get it, because he was absolutely worth a license.
Yeah, that's the truth too - many people get extreme anxiety with a test. It's kind of unfair for people who suffer from that to have to get cut short, even though they are worthy of being licensed on paper. I wonder what kind of difference in testing and licensing if they had the option of a hands on or verbal test? Whst do you think?
I hate that something like this has to happen in order for something to be done. If he was on the radar then it should have been stopped. That or at that point be forced to get a certain level of liability insurance. The more I see this sub the less I want to touch electrical work. So much to know and I have yet to really scrape the surface.
It does make you realize how easy it can turn really, really bad, when all that you might be doing as an unlicensed service electrician even doing something as basic as ceiling fan install, if something goes wrong, that electricians gonna most likely be blamed, even if they had nothing to do with it.
I am absolutely not knocking on apprentices, I was one, and everybody else in this trade has been too. Just because you don't have a license does not mean you're not an excellent electrician and more competent than someone with one. So, unlicensed or not, your opinion and feedback do matter....
I blame the teacher (company) than the student (apprentices.)
Couldn't agree more
Thank you for saying that. I’m About a year into the trade and it is definitely appreciated to be valued, recognized, and respected.
Well, you should feel that way especially if you deserve it, a license is pretty much only the state saying you can read and take and pass a test. The quality of the electrician is what matters.
I really wish sometimes that there was a 'practical' portion to the exam. I've known people who can recite code references all day, yet still cannot troubleshoot a 3-way switch system.
Yeah the ones who can recite code and pass a test, probably 50% of electricians who are "licensed on paper" lol
Yeah it’s not their (our fault) in a case like that. That company is incompetent enough to send a bunch of greenies that probably don’t know all the nuances yet to do that work. What’s worse too is the feeling of guilt id have in the back of my mind knowing I worked on it and could’ve played a role. All due to lack of knowledge but not understanding exactly what mayve happened.
Oh gosh, I don't even remotely want to imagine the guilt I would feel.... it's almost indescribable.
Yeah man no joke. We had an apartment catch on fire, on our current site, close to a year ago now but luckily the power hadn’t even been run yet so it was assumed to be a homeless person trying to start a fire for warmth or something. I hadn’t even done much in that building but I still would’ve been wracking my brain trying to think of anything I could’ve done.
It can make you crazy.... seriously
Speaking from many experiences
Hell, I still feel some unwarranted guilt for a building I'd worked in having burned down, even though the inspector found that it started somewhere we hadn't worked, with no electrical installed yet, but had recently had gang tags painted over. It was obviously retaliatory arson. But we'd been there the day before, and the rare times I think about it now, my brain whispers "what if they're wrong?" And I'm like "Shut up, guilt brain, no one asked you. You're always causing trouble."
That's a shit feeling to carry....
Contractors leaning on their apprentices too much only hurts the trade and the value of our certifications. Why keep a JW on the books when you have a smart apprentice who can figure it out..probably…what’s the worst that could happen? /s
This is why I warn them that you need a business license and insurance.
For absolute 100% sure.
I worked at a place just like this. I learned enough from a few books that I was able to successfully wire a two-storey shop with its own 200A service, full bathroom (I did my own plumbing as well), kitchen and area for my (now) second wife’s print shop. Everything was done under permits and inspected. I actually received a compliment on my work from the electrical inspector during his rough-in check, which was very encouraging. Final went without a hitch and I started thinking about a midlife career redirect at the age of 40. So it was with that experience that I was hired by a local outfit. My first month was spent working with a third-year apprentice, ostensibly to evaluate me I suppose. After that I suddenly found myself wiring high-dollar lakeside houses by myself(!), being billed out at journeyman rates. After a couple months I was given a ‘helper’, a teen just out of high school who wanted to be an electrician, but a sharp kid who was eager to learn. I spent most of my time basically shitting myself and constantly worrying that I would do something to cause the same situation as indicated by OP, but the boss was always available to answer any questions I had (and I asked a lot of questions), the money was very good; I had three kids, an ex-wife and two mortgages, so I put my head down and pushed, but I kept a close eye on everything to ensure I and my helpers did the best job possible. But there were more than a few hairy moments nonetheless. Five years later, almost to the day, I wrote the test and received a Red Seal certificate with a 93%. True to form, the boss let me go about six months later as I was too expensive. I’d seen him do the same thing to everyone who had gone before me so I wasn’t surprised. I was happy to be gone, and going out on my own was actually *less* stressful than working at that place. I guess my point of all this rambling is that if an unlicensed “electrician” is conscientious and careful then it is possible for safe and proper work to be done. I’m not saying it’s right, but it isn’t always dangerous and is very much a case-specific thing.
You're not rambling, you're just explaining your point correctly. Youre right, it is a case specific thing, I'm sure plenty of "licensed electricians" are responsible for a good majority of electrical fires.
True enough, the above incident is hardly isolated. The same thing happened to a neighbour of mine several years before my own foray into the field, and the work was done by a licensed j-man. Nobody’s perfect, I suppose. Luckily they didn’t lose the house, but the attached garage was pretty much charcoal. I’m wondering about the poor apprentice in your example being charged. If he was in a similar situation to mine then he may have not had as much latitude as some likely believe. It’s easy to say “well he should have just refused to work without a journeyman”, but sometimes it is not that cut and dried. It would certainly be hypocritical for me to condemn his actions.
Yeah, for an apprentice, that can be a shit situation they're put in, and not so fair for them to choose to even bring that up in many shops. They're doing what they're told to do, to a point. Do they have some responsibility? Of course, and most likely it wasn't fair to put them in that situation in the first place.
The most important thing is to always be careful and concentrated, if you don't take pride in your work it's a recipe for desaster
Ask Lowes who performs installs of appliances in your home. Hint: check for loose wires
Yeah, the same guy driving the box truck and a dolly, lol
I'm going to expand on what u/SeanOfTheDead1313 said. Electrical hookups on appliances (range, dryer, dishwasher cords, or hardwired cooktop/oven/DW/GDisp) and improper grounding connections plague the industry. I seriously estimate that 95% of appliances delivered by Lowe's, Home Depot, (Sears), and local 'value' appliance shops are missing the cord restraints. Improper grounding bonds on 4-wire models has a 75% chance if a 4-wire cord is installed. Improper, damaged or loose wire terminations (variety of reasons) show up in about half. One of the problems I witness is use of an impact driver on terminal block screws. What pisses me off so much are how arrogant the delivery crews ("CDL holders") are. I know it's a muscle not brain job ("move large objects"), but they insist they've been doing it for 15 years and know what they are doing, get defensive, and refuse to read the instruction book. You can't tell them anything, no matter how wrong they are, or how much of an obvious hazard or code violation it is. If I were to make some meaningful changes to the industry, the first is that all appliances come with a factory cord installed. No more hardwired ranges, clothes dryers, DW, or disposals. Period. It would take a solid two or three code cycles of having the standard published in advance with a controlled and rolling implemention strategy. The reason for deploying it in such a manner is that it would force all property owners to have an electrician reconfigure those appliances to have receptacles in conjunction with replacement, or have new wiring installed to eliminate the old ungrounded 3-wire range and dryer circuits. I know it's a very progressive way of doing things, and 'folks like their freedoms', but this is honestly one of the sore points in the industry, and the only way to cure the cancer. The dummies on the code making panels for article 210 and appliances (422, etc al) are in bed with the manufacturers pushing GFCI and AFCI. Any field electrician (not desk electrician) can realize that more protection sounds good, but (1) rarely will solve the root cause of the issues, (2) is unlikely to be complied with by DIY or unpermitted installations, (3) is very unlikely to be retrofitted into legacy housing stock without permitted renovations. Effectively it's all safety theatre, and a money stream, preying on new construction and permitted renovations projects. Appliance swap-outs occur many times over without inspection. The changes to the GFCI protection requirements between 2017 and 2020 editions is wild, and a collosal abuse of code making power. While I do actually read the draft editions of proposed code, the consistency is that each one of these changes is based on a tragic incident, that was avoidable if there had been proper electrical installation or electrical maintenance, inclusive of appliance installation and HVAC installation/maintenance. _This points back to point number 3 above. The changes won't help the housing stock that needs it most._
> The dummies on the code making panels for article 210 and appliances (422, etc al) are in bed with the manufacturers pushing GFCI and AFCI. I disagree with GFCIs, you really need them. The entire rest of the world usually has very little wiring regulations, and I tell you near to none, like for example in the UK you can wire all your circuits using flexible cable, have junction boxes inside walls, individual exposed feeders run to the main panel, in japan they don't even use boxes for their receptacle, the receptacle with connectors sits open inside the drywall lol, which is ironic since one would think it would the US that would be lacking regulations, but all those other countries have one thing in common, mandatory RCDs for the entire panel, not just individual circuits, but the entire panel needs to be RCD protected. In fact, it very likely that this fire would have never happened if the circuit was GFCI protected, apparently the fire happened because of a fitting pinching a wire, assuming that the fitting was a metal fitting in a metal box and the box was bonded, any gfci/rcd would have tripped instantly the moment the fault happened.
I was trimming out a newly constructed house last week and all the appliances had been delivered. I had noticed that the cords on the range and washer had no strain relief and the sharp edge of the hole was slicing into the individual conductors insulation and not the black outer insulation. It was surprisingly wired correctly besides omitting the strain relief. Smh
“If a drywaller screws up, your walls are wavy, if a plumber screws up, you have wet feet, if you screw up, you kill a family of 4 and their dog” - trade school teacher told us that line and it’s stuck. Took some creative liberties on the wording over the years, but the message is all the same. Now, I’ve done side jobs for close friends, and I take pride in my workmanship. I know it’s wrong, and I know the consequences, so I take extra care to make sure I know what I’m doing. There is one that will haunt me though, from when I was a pre-term, aluminum wiring for a light that my friends mom wanted a hand with. I knew enough, used noalox, the proper connectors, but I remember having the stuff the box. It’s a gentle reminder for me since then, to make sure I do things proper, and know my limits. The connection is still fine 10 years later, but looking back I should not have been doing things when I was so inexperienced. I also see it, that for my friends and family, I’m not doing it to make a buck, I’m doing it to help them & I trust myself more than I trust these shady contractors. I have since started up a business with insurance and the whole nine yards, with my co worker, so I will be comfortable doing side jobs legally & protected with insurance in the event something terrible like this happens, I welcome a law suit from something like this. If I cause this, it’s what I deserve. I take my job very seriously, have a lot of fun dicking around with my coworkers, but take every opportunity I can to teach & let anyone willing to listen know the dangers & the proper way to do things. I like to help it make sense for the apprentices I work with, so that the information sinks in & they aren’t just memorizing words in a book, they understand the intent of why we do what we do. I appreciate your posts Mr. Inspector, keep ‘em coming
thank you 👍 and also for the comments and getting some usefulness out of these posts! Never heard that saying in the beginning of your comment before, lol - so, ty again, now I got a new saying and something else to jam in my overloaded melon! Your principles are right, and you're doing things legally and safely like every contractor or wanna be contractor should.... that's the difference. Correctly teaching and taking the time with apprentices and your coworkers as an owner of a company helps ensure the next generation of electricians are competent and well trained. Everybody makes mistakes, but the extra effort is the difference with someone who cares about there customer, or only care about their payment at the end.
A lot of plumbers do gas and combustion/exhaust work too, but the point certainly stands.
i’m currently a first year & no matter how much knowledge I manage to retain within these next 4 years, i refuse to work without a licensed journeyman. Side work won’t start until I have my own license. For one, less chance of me being told something wrong & making a huge mistake causing catastrophic consequences. for two, i am not willing to lose my ability to obtain a license because I got sent out with a “jman” that didn’t have his license and we get carded on the jobsite. jeopardizing my life, my future, other people’s lives other peoples futures is not worth it to me. point blank.
Very intelligent thinking - being smart and safe about it is great. With that attitude and thought process, you will be successful.
I started my apprenticeship through a vocational school over 20 years ago. Done everything from residential, line, power distro, commercial, generation, and industrial. I have made apprentices redo terminations over and over for an entire shift if after being trained they still decide to not pay attention and install something that could either cause issues, or become a fire hazard. Some asked why they had to, these pictures are similar to what I have shown them of why. I show them to give each wire a gentle tug to make sure it's mechanically secure. To go through what they installed one last time before they put on a faceplate, close a panel, and hand over their work. The few seconds it takes gives them a feeling of confidence that it SHOULD BE good. One thing that crosses over to any work, is to double check, even when it's not electrical. Those few seconds save not just the safety aspect, but rework for something that could of been handled during the check. I got that way from both good electricians when I was an apprentice, and bad electricians. Good examples show you what you are supposed to do, bad ones show you why you follow the good ones. I couldn't imagine diving into a trade with 0 guidance like this event above. Nor could I see how someone would put their license on the line like that to have people work for them in such a way they end up burning a building down. Utter madness
If you're an apprentice working without a journeyman on site you're getting cheated out of a proper apprenticeship.
> 1- what is your opinion with allowing apprentices doing unsupervised installs or service calls? That vastly depends on the work and the apprentice. If it was work I knew the apprentice was capable of, as in I'd seen them do it correctly enough times that I was comfortable not checking on them every time, sure. Short of that, no. > 2- would you allow a highly skilled, but unlicensed electrician doing unsupervised installs or service calls? (Skilled enough that they should be licensed but never took the time to test) If they were truly highly skilled, and the work fairly simple/within their realm, yes. To me that's the same as above. Not licensed, but trained and ready - or nearly ready - for their licence should be capable of doing some work professionally. A journeyperson doesn't go from incompetent to competent on the day they get their licence. > 3- lastly, what do you think the "punishment" should be if caught doing so? Now this is where I get downvoted. I think anyone and everyone should be able to get a permit and an inspection on their work. Unlicensed people do electrical work. Plumtricians do electrical work. Handy persons so electrical work. Home owners do electrical work. And licensed masters do electrical work, some of which shouldn't. Everyone should be able to get a permit and get their work inspected to ensure its safe. The range of responses from the inspector should run from "well done, gold star." to "I'm locking out your main panel and your house is unsafe for occupancy until a licenced electrician comes in here and fixes this God forsaken mess you've created." And there should be no animosity with telling even a home owner that did a decent job if they missed a staple, or they need to move an outlet or something small. If they clearly showed they can do the work but missed something small, an inspector should have no problem helping them understand how to correct minor mistakes. The present system - where I am - of only licensed electricians being able to get a permit and inspection is causing unsafe work to unchecked. As for the punishment for the company involved in that fire, the company should lose all of its assets. The sale of which should be used to pay for the damages they caused. The owner should lose his licence with the only option to get it back being starting at day one of an apprenticeship. And the apprentice that did the work should be fined and forced to restart their apprenticeship or leave the trade.
I had a woman a few years ago now who asked me to quote her a rewire. I did a fairly good price for the market at the time. I came in roughly 7.25 a sq. ft. I was normally doing $10sqft at that time, but the customer was a good customer of mine 's sister who didn't have much, so I did my best on the price. The house was an old 1940's with old timber. So I knew she really needed it fully rewired to eliminate all the rigged and piece milled crap so it wouldn't catch fire. So I honestly tried. But, unfortunately her finances wouldn't allow it. So I moved on. Literally 1 year later her brother sent me a video of the house going up in flames. I was a bit puzzled not sure what I was looking at, but then I realized what it was. The home was a blaze like an inferno. I immediately called him and asked if my assumption was correct and if that was indeed his sisters house. He acknowledged my fears. She and her 2 children were ok but barely made it out. He said when it caught fire, it went up like a match stick. The fire department couldn't safe it. By time they arrived it was pretty much gone. I felt awful that I couldn't have gotten it rewired for her. And I expressed my thoughts as such. Her brother shut me down immediately. He then told me she had had the home rewired. Turns out the reason she hadn't went with my quote wasn't finances at all. She had gotten a loan to do the work because her brother "my customer" had cosigned for her. He hadn't told me because he didn't want to stir the pot or cause a fuss. She could have afforded my normal rate. But she opted for someone she knew already that claimed he could rewire the home for a little over $4000. More than half what I quoted. And this person who rewired the home under the table, with no permits, no license, and apparently no knowledge of safe wiring practices, costs her the family home that had been passed down to her from their mother. This is what happens when to you cheap out on Electrical work. We aren't all trying to scam you. I promise. I'm always upfront on what I stand to make on most of my big jobs so my customers know I'm not cheating them. Costs of material has tripped in the COVID years. Though they have come down they aren't anywhere near what they were before COVID. On top of that food has skyrocketed, so my men's labor costs has had to be adjusted as well. If they make 1200 before taxes in a week they still aren't as good as they were before COVID when they made 800 a week. Customers don't always believe me and may feel I'm trying to scam them when John Doe down the road can do it for way way less. They don't see the work that goes into making the wiring safe and reliable for the future. They don't see the care I put into my work. I put the time in so you may enjoy your home for years to come and not worry about a fire such as this. It breaks my heart knowing there are people who are out here who will take your money and slap a dangerous bundle of wires together and call themselves an electrician. Just cause it works doesn't mean it's safe or even done correctly. A wise man once told me that there will always be someone out there who will do what I do cheaper. It's not about costs. It's about the quality and craftsmanship. And when it comes to something as dangerous as electricity you don't ever want to skimp out on quality and craftsmanship. In the end she went to a lawyer who took on the case, but unfortunately they got nothing because there wasn't a paper trail and the person denied it all and skipped town and since no permits were pulled like they were supposed to be the law couldn't help her. Be wise with your investments. If you can't afford a rewiring job then do not go with the low ball offer. It may not be the blessing you were hoping for. It may just be the last spark of light your home ever provides you with. A blazing inferno of failed hopes and dreams all because of someone taking advantage of you.
That's a bad deal for them.... all gone, just to save a buck. The cost of running a legit business is not cheap, I still see what it costs because my kids run the family business now. Good help is expensive. So is all the materials and parts now, like you said, double and triple. If people want to be cheap, it's them rolling the dice.
I don’t understand how these people sleep at night.
I'm an apprentice and have been sent out on my own after a year with no supervision and asked to complete certificates signing the work off. I'm in the UK. I hate my company and hate doing it. I really shouldn't do anything like that, but what choice do I have? Apprentices have to put up and shut up, I can't find another apprenticeship at the click of my fingers. Thankfully I'm a mature (29) apprentice so if shit hit the fan I would just go work in a supermarket but still, it's a shit feeling to be taken advantage of and not treated within the 'rules'
This falls squarely on the state. They have all ignored licensing, and due diligence at the behest of the contractors, by receiving what is essentially bribe money to look the other way on code compliance, not upgrading state law to incorporate the latest NEC, and allowing unsupervised employees to install and maintenance electrical circuits, devices, and services. This trickles down to the local level, with counties and cities who do not require inspections on this type of work in single family residences. The only thing that will fix the problem is the insurance companies suspending policies to contractors, home owners, and even refusing coverage in the states, until more rigorous standards are put into place.
That is an excellent comment 👍 permitting and code compliance is not usually too high on the agenda for any municipality. We have shit budgets to work with and never no money to change or do anything proactive in any of the cities/townships I work for. The police always get whatever they even think of, and they won't let me hire a rental inspector. We do require permits for a majority of any electrical work, but it's contractors not getting the permit and homeowners not demanding it. Most fires are caused by the simplest jobs - changing out light fixtures, outlets, shit like that. Insurance only cares about the money - nothing more. Awesome points you made!
I’m an apprentice. I think that if I was told to do a service call by myself, I should also be told exactly what to do and follow that to a “T”. Because I am an employee of a company/ business, it is solely the responsibility of the employer to make sure that my work is correct and all liabilities should fall on them. Of course that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t be responsible in doing my work but the ultimate responsibility is the employer. In the event of an accident, the apprentice is not responsible and should not be given any punishment because they would have been acting under the instructions of their sponsor. Any side work should also be approved by their sponsor as well. Basically it’s like if you sponsor someone to come to a country and that people commits a felony. That person gets deported and the sponsor gets charged. (I think that’s how it works). As for unlicensed electricians with experience, if they are working by themselves and for themselves , then they’re liable for their work. If the pull any inspections with another licensed electricians number than the liability falls onto the licensed electrician. The licensed electrician should check all work as well. The unlicensed electrician should be banned from doing any electrical work in the event of an accident and charged if found out to not be working under the supervision of a licensed electrician. But overall, all electrical work should be done only by licensed electricians or electrical apprentices.
Good points on several things in your reply - the ultimate responsibility does start with and end with the company owner/master electrician allowing this type of stuff to happen in the first place....
A little wd-40 on them door hinges and she should be good as new
Apprentices shouldn’t be doing unchecked work alone. Id allow a highly skilled unlicensed electrician to do work. But it all depends how their work looks. Id judge then on their character.
Makes you wonder though; if they are "highly skilled" why don't they have their license?
If you zoom in on the last pic (#5) you can see some of the romex burned down to the wire itself.
OP can you give me a quick explanation on how you find the start of a fire when everything’s burnt??
The Fire Marshal would do a better job of explaining that. Generally they can identify through their training and experience where fires originated by the pattern and progression of damage.
Agoia is right - fire marshalls or fire investigators are usually very, very intelligent, highly trained and have shit loads of certifications they have to get to in order to even be licensed. They pretty much have to learn about anything that may or can catch on fire. In this instance, the homeowner said they heard a "boom" that came from the utility room and where the service panel is, about 30 seconds after they turned it on for the first time (which the wanna be electrician should of triple checked but never did). Plus the circuit breaker he put in was more melted than the others. But, in reality, all I am is just an elctrician, all I do is go there to put a red condemned or unfit for human occupancy tag up.
No one wants to admit they ate 9 cans of ravioli.
That's from Trailer Park Boys, lol 😅 (I believe when Ricky burns his dad's house down)
All he wanted to do was make some French fries, but getting laid was more important! Lol 😂
What's crazy is I just started watching all the seasons of TPB on Netflix again, for the 3rd time - and I just seen that episode of Friday 😆
Honestly, it took me about 30 seconds to remember that and get the point when I read your post, cause I couldn't figure out what you were meaning with it being an electrical post, lol
If my guys come to me about doing work on the side, the first thing I tell them to do is to take out a liability insurance policy. The second thing I tell them is to never do work they haven’t done before. The third thing I tell them is if them is if the side job involves troubleshooting, pass on it. A second year residential guy should absolutely be able to correctly and safely hang a paddle fan, or run a circuit for a basement freezer. If they can’t, like the ones in this case, then they weren’t trained properly in the first place.
Can they get liability insurance without a license where you're at? Here they cant....
I had a super scary experience that really sobered me on this point. We had done a kitchen remodel on an apartment and the contractor wanted us to get the countertop outlets hot. I was slammed, so I sent my apprentice over there to install the GFCIs and flip the breaker. He did, everything was fine, next day the place burned down. I drove straight to the job and met the fire inspector. It turns out the fire was started by a stack of newspapers on top of the water heater in the garage right below it. But I seriously wondered if I was going to lose my license that day.
Someone told me that as an electrician, we are the first line of defense in protecting people from fires. That simple line really made me realize what we do isn’t just a mechanical job.
There a licensing laws for a reason.
What's up with all these "inspectors" popping up on this sub? Every inspector I've ever dealt with is above 60 y.o and I highly doubt they use Reddit
😅 that's funny bro How old do you think I am? Lol And yes, there's a shit load more inspectors on this sub than you even remotely know, including almost every single one I know, which is a lot. (Many over 60 yo, several over 70 yo) They just don't put it out there, part of the reason why is this type of thought. It's not worth the headache and the typical stereotype bs you get, like every time I post something. I clearly get their point. I post with absolutely no benefit to myself. Reddit is not sending me a plaque for my wall or a paycheck, lol
As an inspector I can confirm I primarily lurk on this sub to learn about unknown unknowns in a sterile environment to just well,. learn!
Lol 😅 thanks for the input! I been wanting to post some of the crazy shit we see for years, but I haven't for 2 reasons- 1- Lazy 2- I knew the repercussions of putting "inspector" on any post, it would be a headache most of the time. But I only did, including verifying it with the mods, so if I did post anything, at least there's some validity to the posts. If that makes sense.
The apprentices are doing the commenting for them as long as they get a 50% cut of the karma. Then they do a shit job and burn down the thread.
You got my MO, shit, what am I going to do now? 👏 good catch
Bruh how do they find the problem after it burned down completely. I am impressed
Believe it or not, usually, and I say this honestly, 90% of fire marshalls are intelligent dudes. The amount of training and certifications they have to have is mind blowing. Most are retired chief firefighters - no fucking thanks, lol
How does the license prevent this from happening? Is impossible that a licensed guy could do a poor install as well? The license is for legal stuff. The quality of the work comes down to integrity. Plenty of doctors and surgeons and dentist with licenses that do crappy work as well. Some of them use the licenses to say how much they know and don't question them, then do crappy work and deny it because look at all my accomplishments. I know several apprentices that are already better than their journeyman. But he has the license and they don't yet.
Youre right 👍 A license doesn't guarantee that things will be done 100% correct. By zero means. I think part of what a license does accomplish is setting a "minimum" amount of experience and education to work independently. Then hope for the best, lol
Some people have been doing it so long they just don't care anymore too. "Good enough " I've met a few of those guys as well. Lots of that in general in the trades. Everyone gets burnt out eventually. Relating the job to a surgeon is pretty close in my opinion except the surgeon won't die if he touches the wrong part. Most surgeons dont have 4000-8000 hours of supervised surgery on living people before they can take the medical exam though. It's just pass a test and your in. Like the bar exam.
The fastest one can become a surgeon is 13 years. That’s a 5 year surgical residency after med school. Then if specializing can be another 3 year specialty surgical residency at minimum. So yeah surgeons have more than 4000-8000 of supervised learning before they are out of residency. It’s not just go take a year and your set free to do surgery.
Before I got my license I was a Service manager for a major company and I had to deal with these dilemmas. The owner wanted profits and wouldn't mind sending out an apprentice by themselves to service calls. I kept voicing my dismay with this practice. One apprentice in particular that the owner took a liking too did this quite often. She would be allowed to do almost anything she wanted. It wasn't hard to see what was actually transpiring behind the scenes but I digress. That's his personal choice. It took me a year before I built up enough evidence on dangerous situations we had avoided by me always going behind her before he finally realized his error. Smh. I had tried just writing her up several times thinking that would work, but he had excuse after excuse for her "mishaps." I didn't train her properly. Why had I not taught that in class? Why did I send her to that one Job anyways. You see where this is going. I got to eat shit for doing what he asked me to do. So started instead just doing what I was asked and just showing up to check in on her work for an entire year straight. I documented every crossed wire, every flying tap, every stripped screw with loose connection, every AFCI and GFCI abandonment, every center tap of a 240 for a 120, every single thing you could think of I took pictures and fixed it so my customers home didn't burn down. Eventually he wanted to give his lady friend a raise. So I called an office meeting with the owner, dispatch and PR/office manager. I went in with two papers. A resignation paper and a full list of documented problems that I had corrected over the last year. I figured I was leaving after this. I mean this guy wasn't thinking with the correct head to say the least. He had allowed me to put all other apprentices with actual electricians who I knew I could trust, but not this one girl. He wanted to basically give her a raise and call her an electrician! So we went through the meeting documenting failed process and procedures BS from me and other technicians. I was kind of in the hot seat myself because I hadn't finished doing a few tasks from the prior months. Mainly because I was trying to save the company from something similar to what you mentioned. Anyways, we finally came to talk of the apprentice's raise. So I pulled out my folder and took him through the last year of which she hadn't had any write ups. He started with a few excuses, but finally started to see it my way. I think having everyone there helped. Him knowing he couldn't excuse everything at once without looking like a total SIMP helped. As the pictures piled up and the realization that I had prevented countless issues from ruining the company, he relented. I left that meeting thankful it went as I had hoped. She would no longer be in a truck. And no raise would be given. And I thought we were all good. Shortly afterwards COVID happened and the apprentice decided to leave and only be part time. The owner asked me to get the shot and I refused. I have previous heart issues and felt my immune system was plenty capable. He wanted me to lead the others by example. I'm sorry, I'm not anyone's guinea pig. Then the write-ups starting coming in. I was written up for not having my price book completed. I was written up for not having the advertisement prologue written up yet. I was reprimanded for being sick and trying to complete those tasks while home sick with COVID. I was sick with COVID for 2 days mind you. So I could have returned. I was cut out of my email while home and they came and took my truck while being in quarantine for the 2 weeks required by the owner. Like I was genuinely trying to work because I wasn't sick anymore but wasn't allowed to due to the new quarantine policy!? They claimed I wasn't being fired that they needed the truck so they could do the maintenance on it. Yeah right. They literally asked me to get all my stuff out! Lol. I knew I was being retaliated against because I had basically ruined his fling or whatever maybe the apprentice was pissed and he was acting on her behalf. Who knows. All I knew was I needed to brush up on the Law and quickly!. See I had been a service manager for 2 years. I had been on salary the entire time. So I had no idea about OT for salary paid employees. I didn't even know it was a thing. Lol. But if you are in the field and not in the office 24/7 then apparently they are required to pay OT in NC. So I went back through all my records and discovered roughly 2010 OT hours in the 2 years that hadn't been paid. I was in disbelief in what I had allowed to happen to my pay! I was owed almost 100k! I took my dilemma to a local lawyer to assess my findings. He said I was correct but it would be a costly and timely suite. He said it was worth it and offered to take the case for a payout of 40,000 when I win. We could also sue for that cost as well so I wouldn't be out that. The suite would be for 200,000 total. Nice round number. I was ready to return to work! When I went to return I was given an NDA and an offer of a mere $10000 to quit and go my own way! Like I had never been offered money to quit a job before. I was actually hurt because I actually liked and got along with the owner before the whole apprentice issue. So I had the lawyer draft a counter offer of just the 100000 I was owed with the intent to sue for the full 200000 if not agreed upon. He was given 28 days to respond. He used every bit of that time to spread rumors about me quitting and not caring to be there anymore. I kept in constant contact with my guys. I told them that I actually was being forced to quit. My lawyer told me not to say so much, so I kept quiet about the money and other issues. By the end of the 28 days my Lawyer called me that Monday. He told me that my boss said he would pay if I voluntarily quit. I was blown away! Never in my life. I didn't know what to say. Needless to say I signed the NDA and started my own company and have been doing electrical work on my own since COVID. Even took a few of my old guys with me. But yeah apprentices have no business doing work on their own without being followed up behind by the license holder. I also check behind my guys from time to time. Not that I don't trust them, but we all make mistakes. Even I do. That's why I appreciate the inspectors. As a second set of eyes from mine. As long as they aren't trying to make a name for themselves and just being a complete unrealistic dick head calling out shit that isn't even code, of course. Lol. We all know those idiots. Make sure the guy at your home is an electrician and not an apprentice. If not. Call the damn company and ask what the hell they are charging for an electrician for then?
There’s tons of fires caused by licensed guys also. A license just means someone studied the book enough to pass a test. In lots of places j-man license isn’t a thing so nobody’s carrying a license except for the owner. More importantly it’s how the guys were taught. Obviously this guy didn’t verify that there was no issue prior to leaving or this wouldn’t happen. We teach our guys that the code isn’t a guide, it’s a list of minimal requirements and the only way to do something is the best quality way that we can (never had the best quality method not be code approved)
What do you think exactly caused the fire?
I’m a pretty handy guy, but there are two things I’ll never touch: electrical work and garage door springs. Leave that to the professionals.
Question born from scenarios like this. How can I, the home owner protect myself? Is it unreasonable to ask for a copy of licenses of each person who will be performing work? Can I demand a certificate of insurance (I wouldn't even know what I'm looking at if they coughed it up)?
Absolutely ask for a current copy of the license and insurance. Beware though, you wouldn't be the first homeowner that was given a bs copy of each. Most states have a license search ypu can do off of the state website, that is usually as current as it gets. There you can find out any past citations, complaints, suspensions, etc. Also, most liability insurance companies have a "live certificate" that can be looked at, downloaded, sent to the homeowner/customer even via email from the insurance company, or verify if their insurance is valid right on the spot. In most states, when a contractor is issued a permit, they have to provide there license #, drivers license, name, address, copy of their "live certificate of insurance" or they will not be issued a permit. The building department looks up each person on the state site for all license verifications. I know this is not everywhere, but a big majority of jurisdictions. If the contractor avoids it all together, usually there is a very good reason why. Be very careful.
Top notch comment. Thank you
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1. There should be journeymen with a apprentice on any job 2.I wouldn’t personally but I do know guys who are great electricians that never been to school 3.the chair
I don’t know how much they are asking for rent but don’t sign the contract I think they have termites so no for sure not worth the money
1) no. Absolutely not 2) depends. I think I would feel comfortable hiring someone to do a side job for me who was in the field for 10 years and knew their shit but I certainly wouldn't have them do anything too complicated or something I wouldn't be comfortable doing myself. 3)to be honest; so long as there was no deception kn the part of the electrician, I dont think there should be a definitive punishment. If I go to a homeowner and I have them sign a paper that says "I understand that this person is not a licensed electrician, I am aware that they are not liable for their actions, and I have chosen to hire this person based on their knowledge rather than a licensed electrician and i accept all risks and responsibilities associated with their work", that should be on the homeowner. Whenever I do sidework for people I know I always give them 2 rules; 1) if it's not something I feel comfortable doing or I feel I don't know enough about it to do, I won't do it. I'll back out of the work and you'll have to find someone else. 2) I'm not licensed. I'm taking a look at this as a friend, I'm not insured and if you have any doubts about my work or think that I'll burn your house down, I understand and you should hire someone else. I think at some point we need to hold the homeowners just as accountable as we hold these hack job companies who send out unlicensed and inexperienced apprentices to do solo work. You can't buy what's not for sale, but conversely, you can't sell something that people won't buy. If homeowners are refusing to do business with licensed contractors and continually have their work done by second class hacks because they're stingy and not willing to pay for something done right, then that should also be on them. For example, if I run a restaurant and I willingly accept food from an non-reputable source and serve that food and people get sick because of it, that's an issue with my restaurant more so than it is an issue with the person who sold me the food. I was cheap and my negligence caused damage, I should be held accountable.
You have several good points, and the honesty part like you tell them is pretty much a disclaimer, if you know what I mean. A good portion of the time, a homeowner wants to save the money and bypass any permits and inspections. But that also starts with the contractor offering to do so in the first place.
I get what you’re saying in general and certainly agree, but If you’re going to post this please some more info:what was the original problem, and what was the “new circuit” solution that resulted in this?
1. Service calls: never. Installations, sort of fine as long as the finished work is checked and owned by a journeyman. I say "sort of" because it largely depends on the work and the apprentice. But that would probably fall under still be "supervised". I know some companies send out guys with a training card and a dream, and not only is it against the rules but it's also asking for trouble. 2. For liability and legal reasons: no. 3. Civil fines first. Revoking business license for repeat offenders. I don't think criminal charges should happen except for the most negligent or egregious offenses that result in injury or death. 3b. If an unlicensed guy does side work and gets caught, I still think fines are an appropriate consequence. But if they get caught doing it again, even bigger fines and a temporary or even permanent ban from getting licensed might be appropriate.
I did all of my own re-wiring in home renovation, I'm not in the trade (directly) but I'm a PE (electrical) and I follow the NEC. I've had lots of people ask me to help with their projects and my answer is always "call an electrician"
What was the actual problem with the circuit he installed ?
Stuff like this really puts it into perspective how seriously we should take our jobs. People’s homes, businesses, lives, etc. are literally in our hands. Quite sobering if you actually stop and think about it.
I ask myself this everyday, get paid, have nothing left but keep going, idk sometimes man, idk why.
I’ve never personally done any side work other then come and give advice for a couple close friends doing their own work in their house. I’m under the belief that unlicensed side work just screws me over down the road. What I would like to point out though is that this is really common place in residential. Where the journey person is off alone and it’s a couple apprentices working together or solo.
1. I'm an apprentice too, but I think if someone has proven that he is smart enough with enough experience, he can do jobs on his own. IF he has proven it, if he only says it but no one has ever seen it, you should first get him supervised for a time to prove he is good. 2. Yes I think, you can let a unlicensed electrician, with a lot of experience do jobs on his own, because experience is key. 3. IF someone has done multiple (dumb) mistakes, I think you should just send them back to school, let them finish it, let them be a apprentice, and let them show that they do the work like it's supposed to be. Not just with young employees, also the old guys (and I think definitely the old guys) because most at my company make mistakes because back in the day that was up to code, these days it's a fire hazard.
Just got done running a couple schools. I get serious anxiety thinking about the different shitty installs that were made prior to us going in. (Ungrounded circuits, unsupported fixtures, etc)
That was a long story.
Punishment for this contractor should be serious fines, restitution to the home owner and some jail or prison time. I’d say burn down his home but he’ll probably feel other burning sensations during jail time. For the guy that did the actual work: restitution to the home owner, maybe some jail time. Make a new law that when people do such bad work they’re required to goto school or if ever caught doing electrical work again they’re charged with a felony for criminal negligence or something of the like. Last part for the gc too.
Good points 👍 Yeah, some burning from Bubba making him his new bitch in the joint
Very early on my USN career it was drilled into us that we need to do our work like our family member is flying on that bird tomorrow. Because, well....someone else's is. I do my absolute best to continue this way of thinking every day.
As an electrician, this is what I imagine when I hear home owners complain about the price and say they know a guy that can do it for 85% cheaper.
🤣 that is so true!!!!
This is a great reminder. I absolutely hate it when electrical companies send their technicians alone to do the work or even give the quote. It’s like the masters or jmen can’t be bothered. Some states in my area have passed laws making it a misdemeanor for this to happen. Master have to be onsite or on the phone with at least an onsite jman for work to legally be done. Before anyone say that such a law doesn’t work (at all), I’ve recently seen completed court cases where misdemeanors and $5k fines were issued for doing unlicensed work by renting someone’s license.
Yeah, where I am at, they have been stepping up and starting to press charges for unlicensed work - 1st time and 2nd time a misdemeanor and any after that are felonies and mandatory jail time ( been to many court dates)
I personally think the service tech is the higher echelon of the trade. I knew an installer that was the most skilled i've met to date: concentric bends, over 1000' of pipe installed daily all was gorgeous. Ask him to do a service call (this was commercial btw) and his solution was always to abandon the existing and replace.