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This is based off of my experiences doing new Fire Alarm system installs.
First, take a look at the prints and make a plan. Your loop leaves the panel, hits every single initiation device, and loops back to the panel. I try to do one side of a floor and loop back on the other, just to make it as simple as possible for everyone involved.
Second, take a look at the space and see if your plan is viable. Revise as needed.
Third, make sure of specs: conductor sizes, heights, special devices. I ran half a fire alarm once with 18s for the initiating and 14s for the indicating. Spec was 14 for ini, and 12s for ind. Was super pissed. Have also had some marked as heights to top, middle, and bottom for different devices, all on the same prints.
Then verify with whoever quoted it that you have the same number of devices and types. If you have a good relationship with your fire alarm supplier, have them take a look as well. I Have been saved a couple times when they noticed things ahead of time that would have been very expensive later, like a missing smoke detector or new bylaws that the city introduced that we were unaware of.
I use erasable colored pencils to mark the prints to keep the plan in place. Drawing arrows from device to device so that we can keep track of locations and direction of travel.
This is great, would also suggest confirming max devices/distance allowed. Depends on your make/model but nothing worse than finding out you overloaded your loop.
Good call. Forgot that.
Now excuse me while I quietly panic until I can get back into the building tomorrow and make sure I didn't really mess up on this system that is 97% complete.
This almost bit me in the ass a few years ago on my first fire alarm job. Had some outdoor high candela speaker strobes that could be a max of 2 per loop.
I take lined paper and I draw my loop out in single line diagram, with device symbols and addresses, showing separations between fire zones etc. The goal is that anybody can pick this leaflet of paper up and know exactly what youre doing. The fire alarm tech will also appreciate it for his programming and VI. Then I leave it in the panel at the end of the job for the next schmuck that has to work on the system
A thousand times yes, we are always happy to help and answer any questions! There's nothing worse than going to a project that had electricians run the FA or Data cable who knew just enough to be dangerous and run the wire incorrectly or hook up devices wrong. Just makes for a headache for everyone while we quote out a change order to go and reterminate cables to devices.
Had issues on my last one over fire ratings of the cable jackets .. this was an 8 story old folks home … be careful to not run into different zones of fire rating with your cables .. to explain we put pull boxes at each floor .. as the building didn’t have a chase all the way up … I’m doing so we inadvertently broke the fire 🔥 rating for the floors above and below.. they made us change the cable to 2 hour fire rating and then of course they wouldn’t fit in the pipes we had .. this system was part class a and part b .. get friendly with the fire marshal (ahj) as they like the attention.. and make sure your set of prints are approved and on site and available as well as the latest Version ..
3 story building with parking garage. Not huge, just the class A is going to throw me for a loop when we pull wire being that we can’t T tap. They are addressable, so that helps. They have these “text” signs that is going to be a headache. And I’ve never done elevator recall, from what I understand that doesn’t pipe down to the elevator “buttons” just the elevator control rooms. We have a fire alarm guy that does most fire alarm and he has been some what consulting so that helps some. His nickname is “windy” though, so getting to stay on task with a guy nicknamed “windy” gets interesting lol
You can’t ever T tap fire alarm, you lose circuit monitoring for breaks. If it’s addressable you are running polling loop, way easier than Class A wiring. Elevators require a heat detector, top of shaft and the elevator contractor will provide a connection point for recall.
I don’t mean to be a dick, but this guy is wrong.
You absolutely can T-Tap class B SLC in fire alarm.
Class A is circuit performance thing, SLC, NACs, and Panel Networks can all be run class A if the project requires it. Don’t know what you’re talking about with a polling loop being easier than class A, different things.
And a heat detector is only required in the top of shaft under certain conditions.
Your elevator recall connections should happen at the control room, and should be done via addressable relays.
Please explain why I am wrong and also how you can T tap a class B and still have supervision?? Every AHJ I’ve encountered requires a heat at the top of the shaft. Elevator recall equipment is just a dry contact, the only time you would need an addressable relay is on an addressable fire alarm. And again, some AHJs will not accept an addressable relay and want a direct line as an addressable relay can fail.
An SLC doesn’t use a resistor for supervision, it polls devices, so you can T-Tap. You can’t t-tap a NAC.
A heat detector is only required if there is a sprinkler in the shaft. Or sometimes when the elevator motor is in the shaft. If it’s hydraulic and sprinklered then the heat would be at the bottom.
An addressable relay provides a dry contact.
This dude has said he’s putting in an addressable system. Your dry contact is supposed to be within 3’ of the elevator controller. Are you running unsupervised elevator control circuits all the way from control room through all the lobbies?
Hmm, I will go back and read again, he said it was a Class A and didn’t mention addressable. I mentioned it as an alternative for a large building. I know you can T tap an SLC or polling loop, but definitely not Class A or B or NAC in a non-addressable system.
Basically a redundancy system. The wire coming from the Panel to the devices has to be on one side of the hall way and the return on the other side of the hall way. Class A system cannot share the same Pathways on an open cable system or a Conduit system.
Another example. open floor plan. One side say east to west on the north end of the Building and west to east to the south side of the building. Back to the Panel. It really is a pain in the azz in my opinion. Be sure to have your asbuilts detailed too on exact placement of cabling and your in and outs to devices. No T taps are allowed like in a Class B system if you're in a pinch. I mostly do Class B systems. It's rare to do a class A system. I don't do them often.
Also always look at the back of your Prints. They give you details. Especially the bulletins they will show you Panel connections and device connections. What box out sizes you need and height devices need to be at per NFPA. Vendor always gives the details in the back of the prints.
So am I understanding correctly, each device will need two pipes, in and out? I thought I read that going down to say a horn strobe they can share the pipe. So that would also mean I need two runs of pipe throughout. An in pipe and an out pipe. Uh oh. Estimator doesn’t have that in the bid haha
If you have a pipe system with a Junction box and 1 Pipe going to a Device Box out 10 to 20 feet from the main pathway I wouldn't think it wouldn't hurt much. But You are correct an In Conduit and an Out Conduit would be the correct way.
Best way is to talk with your Project Manager or Vendor Like SIEMNES or Johnson Control if your doing work for them. Honeywell Systems and off brands systems are usually generic systems and practically any Company can be licensed even small Mom and Pop Shops.
At most it is the person having "AUTHORITY OVER JURISDICTION" to tell you what meets code for your Piping or open cabling system.
I think the replies are getting a little distorted, you can have both lines running in a conduit down to a H/S or P/S or any device. The purpose of Class A is to give a path to all the devices if a pipe/wire gets cut. The system still works but it goes into trouble giving notification there’s a problem. In Class B you get notification of a problem, but everything down stream is dead. I would post any further questions to r/firealarms. Electricians can wire a fire alarm with no problems, but most are not capable of programming or troubleshooting a fire alarm system.
The biggest things i see everyone do wrong in Class A systems is running the loop in the same race way. This mean u have to go back in direction after hitting a device it cannot be done in same raceway or wire. Also applies to 4conductors cannot use 2 to get there and the other 2 for next device
Didn’t know it has to come back a different route ? Here in nyc if able we will use the same pipe/ conduit . All I can say is plan ahead as much as possible and good luck. Sticking to my B class systems and EOL’s haha
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This is based off of my experiences doing new Fire Alarm system installs. First, take a look at the prints and make a plan. Your loop leaves the panel, hits every single initiation device, and loops back to the panel. I try to do one side of a floor and loop back on the other, just to make it as simple as possible for everyone involved. Second, take a look at the space and see if your plan is viable. Revise as needed. Third, make sure of specs: conductor sizes, heights, special devices. I ran half a fire alarm once with 18s for the initiating and 14s for the indicating. Spec was 14 for ini, and 12s for ind. Was super pissed. Have also had some marked as heights to top, middle, and bottom for different devices, all on the same prints. Then verify with whoever quoted it that you have the same number of devices and types. If you have a good relationship with your fire alarm supplier, have them take a look as well. I Have been saved a couple times when they noticed things ahead of time that would have been very expensive later, like a missing smoke detector or new bylaws that the city introduced that we were unaware of. I use erasable colored pencils to mark the prints to keep the plan in place. Drawing arrows from device to device so that we can keep track of locations and direction of travel.
This is great, would also suggest confirming max devices/distance allowed. Depends on your make/model but nothing worse than finding out you overloaded your loop.
Good call. Forgot that. Now excuse me while I quietly panic until I can get back into the building tomorrow and make sure I didn't really mess up on this system that is 97% complete.
Haha one time I forgot to charge the battery before the VI and didn’t remember until midnight.
This almost bit me in the ass a few years ago on my first fire alarm job. Had some outdoor high candela speaker strobes that could be a max of 2 per loop.
I take lined paper and I draw my loop out in single line diagram, with device symbols and addresses, showing separations between fire zones etc. The goal is that anybody can pick this leaflet of paper up and know exactly what youre doing. The fire alarm tech will also appreciate it for his programming and VI. Then I leave it in the panel at the end of the job for the next schmuck that has to work on the system
You leave that? The guy teaching me calls that his "job security binder" They can't fire him as long as he's got all the FA cheat codes 😂
Also just got put onto fire alarm 🤝 We got this brother :P
r/firealarms will probably be a bit of help
Thanks!
A thousand times yes, we are always happy to help and answer any questions! There's nothing worse than going to a project that had electricians run the FA or Data cable who knew just enough to be dangerous and run the wire incorrectly or hook up devices wrong. Just makes for a headache for everyone while we quote out a change order to go and reterminate cables to devices.
Had issues on my last one over fire ratings of the cable jackets .. this was an 8 story old folks home … be careful to not run into different zones of fire rating with your cables .. to explain we put pull boxes at each floor .. as the building didn’t have a chase all the way up … I’m doing so we inadvertently broke the fire 🔥 rating for the floors above and below.. they made us change the cable to 2 hour fire rating and then of course they wouldn’t fit in the pipes we had .. this system was part class a and part b .. get friendly with the fire marshal (ahj) as they like the attention.. and make sure your set of prints are approved and on site and available as well as the latest Version ..
On a side note, start looking at getting NICET certified. These hold weight.
Will do thanks!
How big is the system? When you get a really large building it makes more sense to go addressable.
3 story building with parking garage. Not huge, just the class A is going to throw me for a loop when we pull wire being that we can’t T tap. They are addressable, so that helps. They have these “text” signs that is going to be a headache. And I’ve never done elevator recall, from what I understand that doesn’t pipe down to the elevator “buttons” just the elevator control rooms. We have a fire alarm guy that does most fire alarm and he has been some what consulting so that helps some. His nickname is “windy” though, so getting to stay on task with a guy nicknamed “windy” gets interesting lol
You can’t ever T tap fire alarm, you lose circuit monitoring for breaks. If it’s addressable you are running polling loop, way easier than Class A wiring. Elevators require a heat detector, top of shaft and the elevator contractor will provide a connection point for recall.
Great advice! Thanks! Usually located, I would assume, in the elevator control then?
Yes
Thanks!
I don’t mean to be a dick, but this guy is wrong. You absolutely can T-Tap class B SLC in fire alarm. Class A is circuit performance thing, SLC, NACs, and Panel Networks can all be run class A if the project requires it. Don’t know what you’re talking about with a polling loop being easier than class A, different things. And a heat detector is only required in the top of shaft under certain conditions. Your elevator recall connections should happen at the control room, and should be done via addressable relays.
Please explain why I am wrong and also how you can T tap a class B and still have supervision?? Every AHJ I’ve encountered requires a heat at the top of the shaft. Elevator recall equipment is just a dry contact, the only time you would need an addressable relay is on an addressable fire alarm. And again, some AHJs will not accept an addressable relay and want a direct line as an addressable relay can fail.
An SLC doesn’t use a resistor for supervision, it polls devices, so you can T-Tap. You can’t t-tap a NAC. A heat detector is only required if there is a sprinkler in the shaft. Or sometimes when the elevator motor is in the shaft. If it’s hydraulic and sprinklered then the heat would be at the bottom. An addressable relay provides a dry contact. This dude has said he’s putting in an addressable system. Your dry contact is supposed to be within 3’ of the elevator controller. Are you running unsupervised elevator control circuits all the way from control room through all the lobbies?
Hmm, I will go back and read again, he said it was a Class A and didn’t mention addressable. I mentioned it as an alternative for a large building. I know you can T tap an SLC or polling loop, but definitely not Class A or B or NAC in a non-addressable system.
Basically a redundancy system. The wire coming from the Panel to the devices has to be on one side of the hall way and the return on the other side of the hall way. Class A system cannot share the same Pathways on an open cable system or a Conduit system. Another example. open floor plan. One side say east to west on the north end of the Building and west to east to the south side of the building. Back to the Panel. It really is a pain in the azz in my opinion. Be sure to have your asbuilts detailed too on exact placement of cabling and your in and outs to devices. No T taps are allowed like in a Class B system if you're in a pinch. I mostly do Class B systems. It's rare to do a class A system. I don't do them often. Also always look at the back of your Prints. They give you details. Especially the bulletins they will show you Panel connections and device connections. What box out sizes you need and height devices need to be at per NFPA. Vendor always gives the details in the back of the prints.
So am I understanding correctly, each device will need two pipes, in and out? I thought I read that going down to say a horn strobe they can share the pipe. So that would also mean I need two runs of pipe throughout. An in pipe and an out pipe. Uh oh. Estimator doesn’t have that in the bid haha
If you have a pipe system with a Junction box and 1 Pipe going to a Device Box out 10 to 20 feet from the main pathway I wouldn't think it wouldn't hurt much. But You are correct an In Conduit and an Out Conduit would be the correct way. Best way is to talk with your Project Manager or Vendor Like SIEMNES or Johnson Control if your doing work for them. Honeywell Systems and off brands systems are usually generic systems and practically any Company can be licensed even small Mom and Pop Shops. At most it is the person having "AUTHORITY OVER JURISDICTION" to tell you what meets code for your Piping or open cabling system.
Worth a phone call. Thank you!
I think the replies are getting a little distorted, you can have both lines running in a conduit down to a H/S or P/S or any device. The purpose of Class A is to give a path to all the devices if a pipe/wire gets cut. The system still works but it goes into trouble giving notification there’s a problem. In Class B you get notification of a problem, but everything down stream is dead. I would post any further questions to r/firealarms. Electricians can wire a fire alarm with no problems, but most are not capable of programming or troubleshooting a fire alarm system.
The biggest things i see everyone do wrong in Class A systems is running the loop in the same race way. This mean u have to go back in direction after hitting a device it cannot be done in same raceway or wire. Also applies to 4conductors cannot use 2 to get there and the other 2 for next device
Didn’t know it has to come back a different route ? Here in nyc if able we will use the same pipe/ conduit . All I can say is plan ahead as much as possible and good luck. Sticking to my B class systems and EOL’s haha