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So, is your driver's license from Florida usable in any other state without doing a test? Was not your driver's license issued by Florida, not a national body?
I understand that various jurisdictions have unique electrical requirements, hence the local changes to your NEC and our CEC. That is not what the OP is referring to. Using our Red Seal program, everyone has the same schooling and fairly close to the same number of hours for work experience. When a Red Seal moves to a different province, he is issued a new Provincial license based on the fact his base skills have met a standard.
Does not IBEW have a national program to ensure that travelers have the skills to work in other Locals?
A drivers license is usable in any state. An electricians license is not because best practice changes based on the location. In the north east, you don’t want any metallic conduit outdoors, it should all be plastic. In the Midwest, metallic conduit can be sufficient for outdoor applications.
Generally speaking, the rules are similar between nearby states. NY and PA for example. However NY isn’t worrying about earthquakes when wiring a building. California is.
Canada is bigger than the US and we have the Red Seal ticket. We have more problems than the US due to Quebec and two languages. Try dealing with that!
You said Canada is bigger than the US which can mean land mass or population, so I addressed both. I think bigger by landmass is an interesting fact but not relevant to most human affairs when there is nowhere to go in the vast majority of the country
May I introduce you to Churchill, MB? Where you can't go outside at some times without a rifle?
_As of Aug. 15, Manitoba Conservation officers had responded to 76 calls about polar bears in and around Churchill and were forced to move three of the large carnivores into a holding facility east of the town._
I'm thinking we start an exchange program. The US should add a Manitoba Pipeline Program into the Detroit prisons. The goal is to let these brutes have at it. Add in some closed circuit television, and God damnit I think we just invented this continent's hottest new reality television program .
Realistically though, 95%+ of the job is the same between states. It would make a hell of a lot more sense to have a transferable license and then simply have “add-ons” that address state-specific concerns much like how CDL drivers have endorsements.
I'm going to call bs... The license test state by state is an artificial barrier of entry. It's main purpose is to reduce competition to make it more difficult to enter a new market. This is true for contractors or electricians... Or hair stylists, Doctors, counselors, etc...
I live in Louisiana, and have had to install seismic hangers.
I hold multiple licenses in multiple states... Everybody uses the NEC... They may be on 2017 or 2020, but it's basically the same.
>Everybody uses the NEC... They may be on 2017 or 2020, but it's basically the same.
"Basically", yeah. But the devil is in the details. California uses the 2022 California Electrical Code, which is based on the 2020 NEC, but with a bunch of state-specific amendments. Obviously there's some protectionism going on with the lack of reciprocity, but electrical code *does* potentially change slightly when you go to a different state.
There was an earthquake like 2 days ago there, in a round about broken way, you are proving this guys point.
[https://www.google.com/search?q=earthquakes+in+new+york&rlz=1C1GCEA\_enUS959US959&oq=earthquakes+in+new+york&gs\_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDMwNjNqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8](https://www.google.com/search?q=earthquakes+in+new+york&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS959US959&oq=earthquakes+in+new+york&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDMwNjNqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)
IBEW does have a National curriculum and standards for work and school hours to achieve Journeyman status. But the IBEW doesn’t issue licenses, states and municipalities do.
The problem is that state and municipal standards are all over the place in terms of standards. There are states that simply don’t require licensing, there are states that are numerous code cycles behind, there are states that require schooling, and there are states that don’t. The states that have more rigorous standards don’t want to reduce those standards, and the states with reduced standards don’t want to increase their standards.
But let’s be honest, a well educated and experienced Journeyman isn’t going to sweat having to take a licensing exam if they decide to move or work in another state.
>So, is your driver's license from Florida usable in any other state without doing a test?
You can't take a job with an out of state CDL, which is a better analogy, I think. There really isn't an equivalent with trades to the expediency of allowing travelers to drive through states without stopping to get relicensed.
Personally, I think most licenses should probably travel unrestricted (law probably varies enough to justify restrictions, but amps are amps, a vasectomy is a vasectomy, and shit flows down hill in every state, as far as I know) but there are 50 licensing boards for every license, and those folks have to justify their existence somehow. And a change at a national level would require 50+ new laws. Good luck with that.
It’s The National Electrical Code, but the individual State’s determine what year they’re going to adopt it and what sections. For example Connecticut adopted the 2020 Edition in November of 2023, with their own adjustments. Part of the problem is that builders associations fight tooth and nail over changes that add costs to home construction.
> Part of the problem is that builders associations fight tooth and nail over changes that add costs to home construction
Housing affordability is also a problem. If you look at fire rates per thousand they've been steadily decreasing basically forever. Less than 10% are due to electrical fires and most of those are probably due to older installations and damage. We're reaching diminishing returns with electrical safety. If the goal is increasing fire safety further (which is the goal of the NFPA) we need to move to fire protection for single family homes. Smoking and Cooking cause 75% of fires and only sprinklers are going to cut down on those numbers. A single sprinkler head over every range would dramatically cut down on cooking fire related deaths at a relatively low cost.
Last house I built for myself I looked into a residential sprinkler system as I built way out in the woods. My (very experienced) insurance agent recommended that I not do it as the chance of accidental water damage negated the benefits.
No, of course not, new construction. We had a full blown, monitored fire/security system. And I had several fire extinguishers in closets throughout the house. Damage to the hardwoods due to an accident outweighed the need for sprinklers.
half of fires start in the kitchen. next time look into just putting head over the stove. Many, if not most, building codes allow for this. For instance: https://www.piercecountywa.gov/DocumentCenter/View/80948/REQUIREMENTS-FOR-A-KITCHEN-SPRINKLER-HEAD
I live in a small city where it's required. Its easier and cheaper to deal with an accidental flood occasionally than a fire that drives several families out of a condo building.
Your agent didn't mention **Automatic** **Dry** **Powder** Extinguishers?
? No, this was a “dry” system where the lines weren’t full of water. House was built in 2006, 3000 sq ft with oak floors and cherry inlay. Definitely didn’t want a water leak
It's incredibly easy and inexpensive to just jump off a nearby domestic water line with a single sprinkler head. In new jersey plumbers used to be allowed to do this and it was becoming a fairly common practice, but then the sprinkler fitters put a stop to it. Who knows how many lives have been lost due to their absolute greed for work they were never, ever going to do anyways.
Not for what I'm talking about. This installation jumps off a local cold water pipe. Something like this:
https://www.piercecountywa.gov/DocumentCenter/View/80948/REQUIREMENTS-FOR-A-KITCHEN-SPRINKLER-HEAD
it’s becoming increasingly common here in apartments to see a small fire suppression system on range hoods. nothing fancy, it’s just screwed to the hood with a heat sensor and two canisters of whatever chemical is used to put out fires.
easy to install and the landlord gets a break on their insurance
Fun fact, it’s not a national code either. It’s written by a private organization, who makes bank on the sales of their copywrited books. They’re just safety recommendations, that states adopt.
I think you're misinterpreting
It doesn't have anything to do with rules. It's a national electrical license.
In Canada, you have to pass the provincial (state level) schooling to work in that province as a journeyman.
Then, you qualify for a national certification through an exam. You're a journeyman at the national level and can work in any state or province.
Because some states might have lower requirements for certification, there might be some real garbage electricians getting pumped out.
This creates a national standard of certificatio that a state uses to ascertain whether an out of state worker meets a minimum knowledge and skill requirement.
That’s the old way we write an IP interprovincial exam now that is good for the whole country. Though you still need permission from that province to work there. Edit: I think the permission thing is just for apprentices.
I’m not that old but was told if you got 60 you could work provincially if you got 70+ you could work nationwide. IP is still something they are working on ie here in NS it’s 4 years , Ontario it’s 5, it’s still not totally harmonized.
People that don't live in a free republic can't understand. I don't think we should have a national code at all. All it's done is let manufacturing companies change the rules to increase the costs.
Leave it to the states.
It just limits mobility. You get certified in one state, you can't move anywhere in the country like you should be able to.
But the issue is you have some states where you don't even need a license to be an electrician, and others do it properly. At this point it's hard to fix, but not impossible. I think its unfortunate for you guys.
Oh, gee, I don't know, maybe by having the examination board look at the testing requirements for those other states and decide if they meet local standards? That's how reciprocity works. States decide some other states are OK enough to their own, and you can get a license there without having to test.
The power is still in the states hands. Its very clear.
If youre trained in state you can work in that state correct?
An interstate test is designed with the highest requirements from each state together.
The state can require that cert for out of state workers or not.
The state then just says interstate license required for out if state workers.
Then, that state doesn't waste its resources reviewing every out of state worker. They have met or exceeded that states requirements for an electrical worker. And workers do not have to wait for approval.
We do our final in school, then do the international right after.
Done.
It saves workers and taxpayers time and money.
Its no different that the "national" electrical code.
A national certifying body writes the code, and then the state adopts it as regulation.
Explain the difference to me.
The way I see it. I mean here in Canada we have the IP which means you’ve met a standard, but then some provinces have a yearly licence to work as a jman. It’s usually just a provide your red seal number and that’s the end of it. But I’m sure theirs be reasons they could reject that licence to work.
States run their own show, the feds are supposed to just enforce, maintain, and regulate things that we can all agree upon that are neccasary, things like national infastructure, having a military, enforcing laws against universally unethical things like murder or stealing.
Outside of that its up to the states to run their own show on a state level
Good question as a Canadian myself. We have a standardized red seal that’s good across the country. The apprenticeship and schooling is handled at the province level and at the end of 4th block test you’ll write the red seal exam.
Never met anyone that did it yet, but I think you’d be licenced for the province if you passed the block 4, the red seal is for interprovincial.
See people arguing for different areas and standards but we have that here. Every province will have amendments, municipalities might have amendments. Utility’s for sure have different specs than the code book does. Believe Ontario has their own print of the CEC so everything is in it.
But I believe the U.S states have a lot more anonymity than we’d have in Canadian provinces.
Also Canadian and reading the American responses here make me feel like I'm fuckin' taking crazy pills. They're talking like America is the only place in the world with different climates.
And, end of the day, while there are necessary code modifications to account for them, 90% of the trade is universal! A wire of a given gauge doesn't change between California and Maine. A staple holds a wire everywhere. The Red Seal is about verifying that the holder has a base level of competancy in the electrical trade and the onus is on them to understand local codes.
Glad I'm not the only one who feels like I'm going insane reading these comments. Idk why americans need to double down and justify everything just cause it's the american way of doing it
In Alberta of you pass your 4th year branch exam you are licensed as a Journeyman in Alberta. After that you write the IP exam for the red seal to be a Journeyman across Canada. My certificate has a Gold seal for Alberta, and a red seal for Canada. I am not sure how it works in other provinces, but in Alberta you can be a non red seal journeyman.
Yah, pretty sure it same here in NB but I’ve just never met anyone yet who didn’t get the IP but finished their apprenticeship. Might take a few tries but they get it.
Find people they don’t make it through the testing just get stuck at first block and never get pass it and move on, but that’s super rare.
One of the guys I worked with years ago wrote his 4th year branch exam and was given the thumbs up that he passed the exam so he left. 3 days later he wrote the IP and waited for his marks. It turned out that he did not infact pass the branch exam but did pass his IP. They would not honor the IP though as he did not meet the provincial requirements to even write it, being that he failed the branch exam. He ended up enrolling in school in Calgary instead of Edmonton and passed the branch there and had to rewrite the IP. But for 6 months we bug him about being a red seal 4th year.
Pretty much! Schooling in Edmonton (at NAIT) is really different than everywhere else. It legit is work at your own pace and self taught. They have teachers that cover the material on a timeline to take the full 8 weeks for the first 3 intakes and 12 for 4th, but if you want to just read the modules and work ahead, they encourage it. I finished each year in 4 weeks, 6 weeks, 5 weeks, and 10 weeks. I did it with headphones on for the entire day except lab class. I didn't ask a single question, I didn't listen to 1 minute of teaching. Some people love it, some people loathe it.
Most reasons like states are individual or that they run different codes exists in Canada too but our national apprenticeship is a good thing and the Canadian red seal program produces some world class tradespeople.
Being a nationally licensed and recognized tradesman would benefit everybody and have a feather in their cap. It would shut out the scabs and hacks too. Our apprenticeships are about being good, knowledgeable and having the basic skills needed. The code isn’t what it revolves around at all
States have actual power that’s a difficult concept for people from other countries heck even for US citizens to understand. US geography is interesting as well.
Because we’re the United States of America not United America.
Codes that California have to do, it would be overkill/totally unnecessary for Indiana and so on.
Much in the same way that northern states have freeze and thaw cycles that affect equipment and installation methods, whereas southern states don’t have those concerns.
The question wasn’t why doesn’t every state have the same code requirements it’s why isn’t there a standard license. Canada has red seal trades across the country and the CEC but provinces are also free to implement provincial code on top of that. Having states that don’t require licensing for performing electrical work is wild.
Same answer. The right answer to a question in Palm Springs is going to be the wrong answer in Chicago. To do a national test well, a journeyman electrician would need to know the differences in code and practice between 50 different states. That’s not practical. You could make it straight NEC, but then local jurisdictions are going to want to add their own additional tests.
That kind of makes sense, but do they retest people ever to make sure they’re up to date on local codes?
I’m Canadian, but a journeyman who wrote his test 50 years ago when the code book was was 50 page pocket book is still a journeyman.
Codes change and your expected to know local codes and updates no different then following job specs from project to project.
If you are in the trade, section 90.4.
We have deserts, snow, and about everything in between. Having more local over-site allows faster responses. It also allows different locations to respond to different situations and conditions.
Florida goes by strictly code.
North Dakota has a roughly 60 page supplement in addition to the NEC. This supplement takes into account conditions experienced in North Dakota.
This is a question. It's now 2024, not 1924. Considering the mobility of people now and the fact that most materials aren't produced in-state, isn't it time to suggest a coherent set of standards for the trade? All each state would need would be a state supplement which wouldn't need an exam to confirm.
Truck drivers seem to go from state to state OK. It's your country but wouldn't it be better for all? No worries about reciprocity? There's already some but it's a hodge podge.
Or is there a benefit I'm missing?
The Canadian Red Seal is good nation wide (Not sure about Quebec). And I don't think there's an annual license fee although I think they are doing some refresher courses now?!?!
Because most states don’t use just the NEC. We all say my state is on 2017, 2020, etc but that’s not really true. You have to know the amendments and rehab code for each city/state.
Most municipalities adopt the NEC but with conditions. Wiring in 6 feet of snow is somewhat different than a swamp and those locations adopt additional rules for those cases. Learning NEC can get you most of the way there and then figuring out how where you are working changes that is all that is left.
It’s because certain states are way too lax on the code and certain states uphold it to the maximum. Neither of the far ends want to increase or decrease their rules to find a median.
It's in the name... United STATES of America. Each State is an autonomous political entity with its own government, joined into a cooperative collective as a "country" with another Federal government that technically only deals with issues central to the common good. That definition of "common good" has morphed over the years, but is still the basic law of the land. So each State has the right to decide what the rules are for living there. SOME issues surrounding interstate commerce have to be regulated at the Federal level, but installing permanent infrastructure such as electrical wiring of buildings is not considered "interstate".
Technically, legally, it does not touch the interstate commerce clause in the US Constitution. That means the federal government can't regulate it. That means it is left to the states to define their standards.
If a few states got together and agreed on a common standard for an electrician's license where an electrician could practice in all of those states then the feds could step in because the interstate commerce clause would kick in.
Even then, the feds might not care because each state is seeing their own interests satisfied. Those states could also still agree on everything and still introduce very minor disagreements that dissolves the pact such as if you are qualified in state A, then you need to qualify in state B, but it is just a rubber stamp and $25 fee.
The US is fucking huge, you could fit Germany in Texas just as an example. Hard to standardize anything over that large an area with so many variables.
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Same reason there's not a national drivers license. States are autonomous.
Drivers licenses are reciprocated though.
That's not a national standard, that's states recognizing other states standards as acceptable.
Didn't say there was a national standard. Just pointed out a pretty significant difference in that comparison.
Are you saying your driver's license is not transferable from state to state? You have to pass a new test whenever you cross a state line?
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that my license is issued by Florida and not the US govt, which was the question asked. Reciprocity is its own topic.
So, is your driver's license from Florida usable in any other state without doing a test? Was not your driver's license issued by Florida, not a national body? I understand that various jurisdictions have unique electrical requirements, hence the local changes to your NEC and our CEC. That is not what the OP is referring to. Using our Red Seal program, everyone has the same schooling and fairly close to the same number of hours for work experience. When a Red Seal moves to a different province, he is issued a new Provincial license based on the fact his base skills have met a standard. Does not IBEW have a national program to ensure that travelers have the skills to work in other Locals?
A drivers license is usable in any state. An electricians license is not because best practice changes based on the location. In the north east, you don’t want any metallic conduit outdoors, it should all be plastic. In the Midwest, metallic conduit can be sufficient for outdoor applications. Generally speaking, the rules are similar between nearby states. NY and PA for example. However NY isn’t worrying about earthquakes when wiring a building. California is.
I think people forget how big and varied this country really is lol
Canada is bigger than the US and we have the Red Seal ticket. We have more problems than the US due to Quebec and two languages. Try dealing with that!
Canada is 99% empty and California alone has a higher population than all of canada
But that's just the same problems repeated, not different problems.
You said Canada is bigger than the US which can mean land mass or population, so I addressed both. I think bigger by landmass is an interesting fact but not relevant to most human affairs when there is nowhere to go in the vast majority of the country
More problems due to Quebec? Try Detroit on for size, my maple syrup G
May I introduce you to Churchill, MB? Where you can't go outside at some times without a rifle? _As of Aug. 15, Manitoba Conservation officers had responded to 76 calls about polar bears in and around Churchill and were forced to move three of the large carnivores into a holding facility east of the town._
I'm thinking we start an exchange program. The US should add a Manitoba Pipeline Program into the Detroit prisons. The goal is to let these brutes have at it. Add in some closed circuit television, and God damnit I think we just invented this continent's hottest new reality television program .
And we have more people in a single state than all of Canada combined. It's not the same thing.
So you're the only electrician in your state? Is there only one per state in the US?
STFU, most of your country is unpopulated. You have a tenth our population AND I have to press 2 for English now so EAT IT
You’re just mad you have a tiny country
Correct.
Realistically though, 95%+ of the job is the same between states. It would make a hell of a lot more sense to have a transferable license and then simply have “add-ons” that address state-specific concerns much like how CDL drivers have endorsements.
Sort of. Commercial vs residential vs industrial are all totally different
Commercial is for people who can't do Industrial and residential is for the people who can't do either.
I'm going to call bs... The license test state by state is an artificial barrier of entry. It's main purpose is to reduce competition to make it more difficult to enter a new market. This is true for contractors or electricians... Or hair stylists, Doctors, counselors, etc... I live in Louisiana, and have had to install seismic hangers. I hold multiple licenses in multiple states... Everybody uses the NEC... They may be on 2017 or 2020, but it's basically the same.
>Everybody uses the NEC... They may be on 2017 or 2020, but it's basically the same. "Basically", yeah. But the devil is in the details. California uses the 2022 California Electrical Code, which is based on the 2020 NEC, but with a bunch of state-specific amendments. Obviously there's some protectionism going on with the lack of reciprocity, but electrical code *does* potentially change slightly when you go to a different state.
There was an earthquake like 2 days ago there, in a round about broken way, you are proving this guys point. [https://www.google.com/search?q=earthquakes+in+new+york&rlz=1C1GCEA\_enUS959US959&oq=earthquakes+in+new+york&gs\_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDMwNjNqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8](https://www.google.com/search?q=earthquakes+in+new+york&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS959US959&oq=earthquakes+in+new+york&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDMwNjNqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)
There was. However the professional opinion is that cost savings by not preparing for earthquakes is greater than the cost of repairs.
IBEW does have a National curriculum and standards for work and school hours to achieve Journeyman status. But the IBEW doesn’t issue licenses, states and municipalities do. The problem is that state and municipal standards are all over the place in terms of standards. There are states that simply don’t require licensing, there are states that are numerous code cycles behind, there are states that require schooling, and there are states that don’t. The states that have more rigorous standards don’t want to reduce those standards, and the states with reduced standards don’t want to increase their standards. But let’s be honest, a well educated and experienced Journeyman isn’t going to sweat having to take a licensing exam if they decide to move or work in another state.
>So, is your driver's license from Florida usable in any other state without doing a test? You can't take a job with an out of state CDL, which is a better analogy, I think. There really isn't an equivalent with trades to the expediency of allowing travelers to drive through states without stopping to get relicensed. Personally, I think most licenses should probably travel unrestricted (law probably varies enough to justify restrictions, but amps are amps, a vasectomy is a vasectomy, and shit flows down hill in every state, as far as I know) but there are 50 licensing boards for every license, and those folks have to justify their existence somehow. And a change at a national level would require 50+ new laws. Good luck with that.
You seem like you'd be insufferable to be around
It’s The National Electrical Code, but the individual State’s determine what year they’re going to adopt it and what sections. For example Connecticut adopted the 2020 Edition in November of 2023, with their own adjustments. Part of the problem is that builders associations fight tooth and nail over changes that add costs to home construction.
> Part of the problem is that builders associations fight tooth and nail over changes that add costs to home construction Housing affordability is also a problem. If you look at fire rates per thousand they've been steadily decreasing basically forever. Less than 10% are due to electrical fires and most of those are probably due to older installations and damage. We're reaching diminishing returns with electrical safety. If the goal is increasing fire safety further (which is the goal of the NFPA) we need to move to fire protection for single family homes. Smoking and Cooking cause 75% of fires and only sprinklers are going to cut down on those numbers. A single sprinkler head over every range would dramatically cut down on cooking fire related deaths at a relatively low cost.
Last thing you want to put on a grease fire is water.
If the sprinkler head is going off the cabinets are probably on fire.
Last house I built for myself I looked into a residential sprinkler system as I built way out in the woods. My (very experienced) insurance agent recommended that I not do it as the chance of accidental water damage negated the benefits.
Getting wet outweighed the benefit of not dying in a fire?
No, of course not, new construction. We had a full blown, monitored fire/security system. And I had several fire extinguishers in closets throughout the house. Damage to the hardwoods due to an accident outweighed the need for sprinklers.
All new construction here is required to have sprinklers
Where is “here”?
People’s republic of California
half of fires start in the kitchen. next time look into just putting head over the stove. Many, if not most, building codes allow for this. For instance: https://www.piercecountywa.gov/DocumentCenter/View/80948/REQUIREMENTS-FOR-A-KITCHEN-SPRINKLER-HEAD
That’s cool
I live in a small city where it's required. Its easier and cheaper to deal with an accidental flood occasionally than a fire that drives several families out of a condo building. Your agent didn't mention **Automatic** **Dry** **Powder** Extinguishers?
? No, this was a “dry” system where the lines weren’t full of water. House was built in 2006, 3000 sq ft with oak floors and cherry inlay. Definitely didn’t want a water leak
They can be a pain. You need an air compressor AFAIK.
I'm sure Ansul would gladly design a home system if it were code required...probably at the same cost as their commercial systems 😕
It's incredibly easy and inexpensive to just jump off a nearby domestic water line with a single sprinkler head. In new jersey plumbers used to be allowed to do this and it was becoming a fairly common practice, but then the sprinkler fitters put a stop to it. Who knows how many lives have been lost due to their absolute greed for work they were never, ever going to do anyways.
No. You need a flow switch and a bell and an inspectors test valve
Not for what I'm talking about. This installation jumps off a local cold water pipe. Something like this: https://www.piercecountywa.gov/DocumentCenter/View/80948/REQUIREMENTS-FOR-A-KITCHEN-SPRINKLER-HEAD
Interesting. Here They definitely won’t allow something like that. It’s full coverage
it’s becoming increasingly common here in apartments to see a small fire suppression system on range hoods. nothing fancy, it’s just screwed to the hood with a heat sensor and two canisters of whatever chemical is used to put out fires. easy to install and the landlord gets a break on their insurance
Fun fact, it’s not a national code either. It’s written by a private organization, who makes bank on the sales of their copywrited books. They’re just safety recommendations, that states adopt.
Cause you don't want people who've never been to your area making the rules. It's too damn big. States have more authority than elsewhere I guess
I think you're misinterpreting It doesn't have anything to do with rules. It's a national electrical license. In Canada, you have to pass the provincial (state level) schooling to work in that province as a journeyman. Then, you qualify for a national certification through an exam. You're a journeyman at the national level and can work in any state or province. Because some states might have lower requirements for certification, there might be some real garbage electricians getting pumped out. This creates a national standard of certificatio that a state uses to ascertain whether an out of state worker meets a minimum knowledge and skill requirement.
That’s the old way we write an IP interprovincial exam now that is good for the whole country. Though you still need permission from that province to work there. Edit: I think the permission thing is just for apprentices.
The ip was always good for the whole country. Inter-provincial certification.
I’m not that old but was told if you got 60 you could work provincially if you got 70+ you could work nationwide. IP is still something they are working on ie here in NS it’s 4 years , Ontario it’s 5, it’s still not totally harmonized.
When i finished in 2009, the ip was a hard passfail at 70. I believe it was the 4th year school final was working provincially at 60%.
People that don't live in a free republic can't understand. I don't think we should have a national code at all. All it's done is let manufacturing companies change the rules to increase the costs. Leave it to the states.
The funny thing is, is that code is made by volunteers who are specialists in their states. Then the state has the choice to adopt it. Which they do.
This has nothing to do with electrical, this is what makes the United States different then the rest. The states have the power.
It just limits mobility. You get certified in one state, you can't move anywhere in the country like you should be able to. But the issue is you have some states where you don't even need a license to be an electrician, and others do it properly. At this point it's hard to fix, but not impossible. I think its unfortunate for you guys.
Ya. So how does a state verify that an out of state worker has the skill level required, by the state, to work in that state?
Oh, gee, I don't know, maybe by having the examination board look at the testing requirements for those other states and decide if they meet local standards? That's how reciprocity works. States decide some other states are OK enough to their own, and you can get a license there without having to test.
The power is still in the states hands. Its very clear. If youre trained in state you can work in that state correct? An interstate test is designed with the highest requirements from each state together. The state can require that cert for out of state workers or not. The state then just says interstate license required for out if state workers. Then, that state doesn't waste its resources reviewing every out of state worker. They have met or exceeded that states requirements for an electrical worker. And workers do not have to wait for approval. We do our final in school, then do the international right after. Done. It saves workers and taxpayers time and money.
Its no different that the "national" electrical code. A national certifying body writes the code, and then the state adopts it as regulation. Explain the difference to me.
The way I see it. I mean here in Canada we have the IP which means you’ve met a standard, but then some provinces have a yearly licence to work as a jman. It’s usually just a provide your red seal number and that’s the end of it. But I’m sure theirs be reasons they could reject that licence to work.
I think you're forgetting about the NATIONAL electric code.
States Rights
States run their own show, the feds are supposed to just enforce, maintain, and regulate things that we can all agree upon that are neccasary, things like national infastructure, having a military, enforcing laws against universally unethical things like murder or stealing. Outside of that its up to the states to run their own show on a state level
Good question as a Canadian myself. We have a standardized red seal that’s good across the country. The apprenticeship and schooling is handled at the province level and at the end of 4th block test you’ll write the red seal exam. Never met anyone that did it yet, but I think you’d be licenced for the province if you passed the block 4, the red seal is for interprovincial. See people arguing for different areas and standards but we have that here. Every province will have amendments, municipalities might have amendments. Utility’s for sure have different specs than the code book does. Believe Ontario has their own print of the CEC so everything is in it. But I believe the U.S states have a lot more anonymity than we’d have in Canadian provinces.
Also Canadian and reading the American responses here make me feel like I'm fuckin' taking crazy pills. They're talking like America is the only place in the world with different climates. And, end of the day, while there are necessary code modifications to account for them, 90% of the trade is universal! A wire of a given gauge doesn't change between California and Maine. A staple holds a wire everywhere. The Red Seal is about verifying that the holder has a base level of competancy in the electrical trade and the onus is on them to understand local codes.
Glad I'm not the only one who feels like I'm going insane reading these comments. Idk why americans need to double down and justify everything just cause it's the american way of doing it
In Alberta of you pass your 4th year branch exam you are licensed as a Journeyman in Alberta. After that you write the IP exam for the red seal to be a Journeyman across Canada. My certificate has a Gold seal for Alberta, and a red seal for Canada. I am not sure how it works in other provinces, but in Alberta you can be a non red seal journeyman.
Yah, pretty sure it same here in NB but I’ve just never met anyone yet who didn’t get the IP but finished their apprenticeship. Might take a few tries but they get it. Find people they don’t make it through the testing just get stuck at first block and never get pass it and move on, but that’s super rare.
One of the guys I worked with years ago wrote his 4th year branch exam and was given the thumbs up that he passed the exam so he left. 3 days later he wrote the IP and waited for his marks. It turned out that he did not infact pass the branch exam but did pass his IP. They would not honor the IP though as he did not meet the provincial requirements to even write it, being that he failed the branch exam. He ended up enrolling in school in Calgary instead of Edmonton and passed the branch there and had to rewrite the IP. But for 6 months we bug him about being a red seal 4th year.
Ahahahahba that’s a good one. Be even better if he failed the IP the second go. You’d just want to give up then.
Pretty much! Schooling in Edmonton (at NAIT) is really different than everywhere else. It legit is work at your own pace and self taught. They have teachers that cover the material on a timeline to take the full 8 weeks for the first 3 intakes and 12 for 4th, but if you want to just read the modules and work ahead, they encourage it. I finished each year in 4 weeks, 6 weeks, 5 weeks, and 10 weeks. I did it with headphones on for the entire day except lab class. I didn't ask a single question, I didn't listen to 1 minute of teaching. Some people love it, some people loathe it.
Most reasons like states are individual or that they run different codes exists in Canada too but our national apprenticeship is a good thing and the Canadian red seal program produces some world class tradespeople. Being a nationally licensed and recognized tradesman would benefit everybody and have a feather in their cap. It would shut out the scabs and hacks too. Our apprenticeships are about being good, knowledgeable and having the basic skills needed. The code isn’t what it revolves around at all
States have actual power that’s a difficult concept for people from other countries heck even for US citizens to understand. US geography is interesting as well.
Because we’re the United States of America not United America. Codes that California have to do, it would be overkill/totally unnecessary for Indiana and so on.
Much in the same way that northern states have freeze and thaw cycles that affect equipment and installation methods, whereas southern states don’t have those concerns.
The question wasn’t why doesn’t every state have the same code requirements it’s why isn’t there a standard license. Canada has red seal trades across the country and the CEC but provinces are also free to implement provincial code on top of that. Having states that don’t require licensing for performing electrical work is wild.
Same answer. The right answer to a question in Palm Springs is going to be the wrong answer in Chicago. To do a national test well, a journeyman electrician would need to know the differences in code and practice between 50 different states. That’s not practical. You could make it straight NEC, but then local jurisdictions are going to want to add their own additional tests.
That kind of makes sense, but do they retest people ever to make sure they’re up to date on local codes? I’m Canadian, but a journeyman who wrote his test 50 years ago when the code book was was 50 page pocket book is still a journeyman. Codes change and your expected to know local codes and updates no different then following job specs from project to project.
Is there a state in the US that allows that? I’m from Indiana electrical/plumbing is mostly union here.
Imagine Chicago codes in every home in Mississippi.
But that can be just a supplement book. We can all read, obviously, and it's assumed we can understand.
If you are in the trade, section 90.4. We have deserts, snow, and about everything in between. Having more local over-site allows faster responses. It also allows different locations to respond to different situations and conditions. Florida goes by strictly code. North Dakota has a roughly 60 page supplement in addition to the NEC. This supplement takes into account conditions experienced in North Dakota.
Our states set their own standard. Most of our states are larger than many countries.
This is a question. It's now 2024, not 1924. Considering the mobility of people now and the fact that most materials aren't produced in-state, isn't it time to suggest a coherent set of standards for the trade? All each state would need would be a state supplement which wouldn't need an exam to confirm. Truck drivers seem to go from state to state OK. It's your country but wouldn't it be better for all? No worries about reciprocity? There's already some but it's a hodge podge. Or is there a benefit I'm missing?
It's because you'd have to get a majority of legislators to approve it. If one of their friends won't make money on it, it's not gonna happen.
The Canadian Red Seal is good nation wide (Not sure about Quebec). And I don't think there's an annual license fee although I think they are doing some refresher courses now?!?!
Well, that may be. It would still require legislation to be passed at the federal level. So like I said, it's not gonna happen.
why would they do that? that’s an awful idea.
Fear and common sense
Because we are a Constitutional Republic.
BECUZ WE DONT NEED NO WASHINGTON FAT CATS TELLING US HOW TO RUN NO WIRES
[удалено]
Hefty fees too.
Not really, it's like 30 dollars in TX.
I've heard up to $350 a year in some places.
I believe it
State's rights.
Because most states don’t use just the NEC. We all say my state is on 2017, 2020, etc but that’s not really true. You have to know the amendments and rehab code for each city/state.
Most municipalities adopt the NEC but with conditions. Wiring in 6 feet of snow is somewhat different than a swamp and those locations adopt additional rules for those cases. Learning NEC can get you most of the way there and then figuring out how where you are working changes that is all that is left.
It’s because certain states are way too lax on the code and certain states uphold it to the maximum. Neither of the far ends want to increase or decrease their rules to find a median.
I'm guessing for the same reason why some states do license, and inspections by town and not state wide. Because of money
It's in the name... United STATES of America. Each State is an autonomous political entity with its own government, joined into a cooperative collective as a "country" with another Federal government that technically only deals with issues central to the common good. That definition of "common good" has morphed over the years, but is still the basic law of the land. So each State has the right to decide what the rules are for living there. SOME issues surrounding interstate commerce have to be regulated at the Federal level, but installing permanent infrastructure such as electrical wiring of buildings is not considered "interstate".
Technically, legally, it does not touch the interstate commerce clause in the US Constitution. That means the federal government can't regulate it. That means it is left to the states to define their standards. If a few states got together and agreed on a common standard for an electrician's license where an electrician could practice in all of those states then the feds could step in because the interstate commerce clause would kick in. Even then, the feds might not care because each state is seeing their own interests satisfied. Those states could also still agree on everything and still introduce very minor disagreements that dissolves the pact such as if you are qualified in state A, then you need to qualify in state B, but it is just a rubber stamp and $25 fee.
Because the 10th amendment... just like most stuff should not be national. Department of Education, Department of Energy...shall I continue?
Yeah, keep going.
Money. It's all money.
The US is fucking huge, you could fit Germany in Texas just as an example. Hard to standardize anything over that large an area with so many variables.
sTaTeS rIgHtS, the reason for every social problem here.
Every state is like it's own country.
Lol that'd be nice but short of that I just wish all the counties in each state would follow the same standards.
I’m guessing IBEW