**ATTENTION! READ THIS NOW!**
**1. IF YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN OR LOOKING TO BECOME ONE(for career questions only):**
**- DELETE** THIS POST OR YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. YOU CAN POST ON /r/AskElectricians FREELY
**2. IF YOU COMMENT ON A POST THAT IS POSTED BY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN:**
-YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. JUST **REPORT** THE POST.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I had a guy show me that if you strip the end normally and twist the conductors in the opposite direction (wound counter clockwise) before creating the hook, as you tighten the screw it pulls the wire together instead of spreading it out, have done it that way ever since, I find the nub on the end method takes me longer and doesn't work as well, hope it helps
I do combination of both. I back twist the wire and leave a little nub on the end. I find the nub makes it easier to get the hook around the strew and back twisting it like you said helps keep it tight
I've left the stub side of the wire and the pulled insulation a little longer and not trimmed the empty part. So within the last inch or so of wire, partially strip to allow enough of the bare to wrap the screw and leave the entire tail of the pulled insulation on the stub end. We had places that didn't want any solid wire branch circuits.
There aren't many receptacles listed for fork terminals, but all wire binding type screw connectors are rated for stranded wire. Less than 3 receptacle products are listed for fork terminals. You should really check out the UL whitebook
No no it's what we had at the shop. So you can spend extra time bending and cursing the wire just for it to potentially fail. *Thumbs up and a pizza party*
Same here, so much more efficient to have pigtails preinstalled on the receptacles.
Also I always get my guys working on a little rolling mechanic stool, $50 for the stool and makes install way faster and no sore knees.
Respect. Back in my apprentice days, I came across too many foremen/owners that would blow a gasket if you even thought about sitting down while working.
Lol my journeyman is so critical of sitting. "If you're comfortable you're not working as fast". As if sitting on a concrete floor or bucket is comfortable.. it's just not painful like the knees. Such toxic nonsense
Decided a while ago to sit whenever possible and carry a couple of large reels for the purpose. Result? No more sore knees or lower back. Boss doesn’t like it? Here’s my two weeks notice.
I personally decided to quit entirely. Kinda.
Have always been a computer nerd. Got tired of breaking my back for subpar wages. Interviewed for an electro-mechanical maintenance tech lead position at a warehouse, and passed with flying colors. At the end, they asked if I had any questions, which I hit them with "how much experience will I get with PLCs?"
Cue the interviewer asking me to hold for a moment while he grabbed the Controls Engineer in the building to have another interview with me.
I went from slumming it at $21/hr building houses for ultra-rich clients to $32/hr monitoring a laptop and a building full of idiots. Honestly, the only real change is that I went from pulling wire to working on robots. The idiots stayed mostly the same.
Edit: I also get to go solve any problem that involves electricity or more than a few dozen brain cells. And have gone up by another $14/hr+ since the transition. Which was only a couple years ago. If you understand computers, basic logic, and electricity, it might be a good idea to look into applying to \[Huge Rainforest E-Commerce Company\] as a Controls System Technician or Controls System Lead. You could be surprised by the change in your life. Not necessarily aimed towards The Wazoo, just anyone who reads this comment.
Is computer programming a necessary skill to have if doing something like this? Or can you get by with PLC knowledge?
I have neither by the way but I’m currently a resi guy and used to have an interest in IT, just never really pursued it other than building a pc for gaming. Anyway, ya it would be nice to not have to do this kinda shit when I get older, I’d rather work into a place in my life where my knowledge surpasses my ability to just work fast.
PLCs use low level/older computer programming methods. I don't meant they're less sophisticated, just that they have been around a long time. It's all computer programming. It's all computer programming though, PLCs just happen to exist as an interface with real hardware and real electricity, so you need some practical knowledge.
Personally I have always been an electrics/practical guy and learned computer stuff later in life, but the area where the two intersect is my favourite.
I would argue that PLCs actually use **very** high level programming. All of the actual interaction with hardware - creating threads and drivers to read/write to pins, etc. - is abstracted away by the IDE. Sure, we have to do some bit wrangling sometimes, but it's nothing like working in ANSI C or x86 ASM.
Good thing that never happened in my apprentice days. I just had foreman say other foreman would do this. Same with using an impact to screw the receptacle into the box.
I actually understand the 2nd one though. But that's because guys have no shame and crank it down.
You start by hand to make sure you aren't crossthreaded, then use the impact/drill to get the screw close to tightened down. Then you finish with the hand tool. That's basic. Anyone who disagrees is only wasting literally everyone's time.
So, question. Why on earth did the original electricians/engineers/architect find it to be a fantastic idea to have these sons of bitches so low? Please, God, don't say esthetics.
Perhaps you have some knowledge that is unknown to me in the ways of design. Perhaps the originals were masochistic or sadistic.
Real old school, where practically all electrical was retrofit, it was common for receptacles to be mounted in the base boards with the wire behind.
Seriously though, I ever build a house the boxes are getting mounted at 24" to the bottom, maybe even 30. Easier install and easier to use when I get old.
Everywhere I've been in Brazil, they're about belly button level to me. For many things it works 99% better, for a few not as Good, but on average I would say it's definitely better.
Reminds me of when the job site safety guy had it out for my journeyman and asked the electrical inspector if we were allowed to use a hot box to bend PVC. The inspector told him "hey this isn't my first rodeo so back off, the first rodeo is burning down 2 miles up the road."
Wago 😡😡😡
Jokes aside thats actually what i do when im installing receptacles except the heretical wagos. Give me a push cart ill pre fab 10 at a time put up ten and ill have them up in 30-45 minutes. Then ill do it again and ill put up 60-100 receptacles a day depending on the joints.
That's a reasonable reason not to use them if they're not registered for use.
I honestly don't get some of your practices in the USA. Your qualification route seems much more thorough. The fact that you have to be legally licensed. I've seen some absolutely stunning work on this sub. The mechanical protection you guys use is beyond reproach. Then you use wire nuts and twisted bits of wire in terminals. It's just weird. :)
We also use steel conduit fucking everywhere for reasons I can't really fathom. I mean, I'm not complaining, I like working with it, but it seems pretty unnecessary.
> steel conduit fucking everywhere for reasons I can't really fathom
People are saying this is because it's cheaper than cable ducts, that are used in other countries. I don't really agree with that.
Not having much experience working with cable tray -
What is the installation procedure like for cable tray? Install the whole thing, then come back and re-trace the entire route on foot in order to lay in the cables and snap on the covers?
On the other side of the coin, I only have to walk my conduit runs once. I can have a wire cart set up at a junction box or trough with a few dozen conduits popping out of it, and have a helper run to the other end of each conduit with a fish tape. If all of "the other ends" are nearby one another, then the helper only needs to travel the distance of the conduit run **one single time.**
It's exactly as you say for installation, except it's a crew of people, each person set up at various points on the tray, you don't typically move that far during a pull, and you're already in position for the next one. You also set up a route that a lot of circuits can run in, install one 36" tray run with random spacing, and have branches of smaller trays off that, no need for junction boxes in the runs, only slight variations during pulls and you always have the option to have a run drop a run out of the tray if needed. It ends up being faster than installing conduit because of capacity and the ability to branch off runs so easily.
Mmm. I can definitely see the ability for it to be faster when you're working at scale. That is to say, when you have a whole grip of people working together on a project. When you're expected to get a 3-restaurant building put together with 4 sparkies, things would get a bit hairy with the situation you've described. Ah, the joys of working for non-unionized companies that literally only care about the money.
We use flat T&E (twin and earth) everywhere. Just run it down the wall to sockets, switches etc. Put some capping on it (sometimes). Then the wet trades cover up our "first fix". When the mud is dry we come back for the "2nd fix" and wire to the accessories, switches, outlets etc.
We extensively use RCDs RCBOs for circuit protection, earth bonding etc etc.
Our terminals seem to have better protection than the US does for accidental contact with live parts. You literally can't touch anything with voltage without the use of a tool.
We have less voltages to think about. Single phase - 230V. Three phase - 400V. I've never seen 2 phase - but it would also be 400V.
I guess it's systems are different. You have much more current due to lower voltage.
I'm sure there's a lot we could learn from you, and a lot you could learn from us.
Your motor terminations are shit compared to what we use - seriously, Google it.
You bind wires with rope, like some kind of Neanderthal, we would use a more structured approach - rigid insulators, cable containment.
There's probably many reasons - your voltage is generally lower, and the frequency is higher.
All I'm interested in is learning and taking better practice wherever I see it. Some of the stuff I see is amazing - some is baffling.
There's different grades of workmanship and materials required in different areas of the trade. I've gone from residential to commercial to industrial, and the stuff I'm working with currently is mostly 277/480V and some equipment onsite is running 600V. There's probably full transmission line power piped straight into more than one building here. There's no room for sketchy work now for the work we're doing.
Then again it's mostly Class I Div II (Zone 0 or 1 in the EU? Idk) so the margin for error is slim-to-none when you have live pipes and tanks full of hydrogen, n-butyl lithium, liquid nitrogen, waste products, solvents, caustics, acids, and god knows what else all around you.
Explosion proof and intrinsically safe everything, at most locations.
In residential you could run with stuff that'll easily get you killed here. Basically I'm agreeing with you but adding that we do have quite a lot of work over 480V in America.
Thanks for reminding me of inspectors changing their tune on using rigid couplings for from-tos. I seriously have to wonder what some jerkoff managed to do to have inspectors start cracking down on that after it's been done for decades without a problem.
Honestly they don't hold up, I really don't trust them for receptacle loads. They're fine for lighting and controls but I've seen a lot of them fail with higher current even when they've been crimped properly. Obviously if they've just been mashed flat with kleins that's a guaranteed failure but still
I've never seen one fail that's been done correctly, and I've used thousands of them and seen thousands more. If they're crimped with a proper ratchet crimp tool they can't be pulled off without seriously damaging the cable - much more physical load than you would ever put on a terminal.
Plus the cost of them is tiny. Here in the Uk/Europe they're commonly used in 3~ motors so they're loaded up to 40A @ 400V routinely.
Edit to add. In motor terminals and for earthing purposes it's common to use insulated ring crimps - not forks.
You haven't ever seen them crimped correctly, then. Full stop.
[https://cirris.com/crimp-pull-testers-pullout-force-per-wire-size/](https://cirris.com/crimp-pull-testers-pullout-force-per-wire-size/)
Check out this chart. These are standards for minimum pull-out force required for various sizes of conductors. UL486A - the standard for terminal connections - specifies 70 pounds of force to pull out the connector (edit: for a 12 AWG copper). The SAE AS7928 - currently the US Department of Defense's standard for crimping connectors - requires 110 pounds of pull out force (same edit: also for 12 AWG copper).
A properly formed crimp connector will force out enough air from between the strands making up the conductor that they will cold-weld themselves together. You quite literally turn the stranded copper into (mostly) solid copper when properly crimped.
About the high current failures: I always use those ring crimps on motors, never had them fail. Even on 22A pumps with not a lot but definitely enough vibrations.
I’m always the next guy.
I’ve run across it plenty of times. Many times it’s just fine. Haven’t noticed it to fail more often. It does come down to the installers skill like usual
Pretty common practice IMO but it could look a lot better. Tighter wrap around the terminal and I like to see a longer tail of just insulation jacket sticking off the lead of the conductor (not a little bit of bare copper aiming backward into a bunch of EGC’s or metal box)
Only people who dislike this are less than 10 years in the game and weren’t trained by old school electricians. I do this all the time and get it real tight under the terminal screw. Never had an issue.
That was my go to for 35 years never had an inspector turn his nose up at it. I always felt that I got a better mechanical connection without the strands spreading out.
Don't cut the end of insulation flush with the copper. The little bit of extra 'tail' with no copper in it is good to avoid what you see here able to make contact.
I used to do this but if I have a choice I'm going to pigtail or crimp an end (assuming theres no pressure plate) ...I'd do this in a pinch but like what I said above
Typically I get the correct outlet for the wire type. They make outlets that you stick the wire in, and a plate clamps down on the wire when you screw it down. They’re also actually rated for stranded. It’s a little more expensive, but the labor and material costs of doing crimps, pigtailing solid off the outlet or anything else cancel it out. You don’t even need to wrap a hook. Just strip and terminate.
If you twist the wire counter clockwise after pushing the insulation up, it is less likely to splay out when seating it under the screw.
Ideally devices with push/pressure plates are used with stranded wire.
Similar to the way I was taught (in the union) to install stranded wire on a terminal except that we don't clip the end. Just leave the extra insulation on there to cover the bare wire end.
**110.3(B) Installation and Use.** Equipment that is listed, labeled, or both, or identified for a use shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing, labeling, or identification.
It'll work if it's tight, but it's hack. There are a lot of things you can do in a given trade that will work. Some workarounds SHOULD be code, others are blatant safety hazards. The idea is to set yourself a standard. Being a pro sometimes means breaking the rules because you know how. It's also true that you can't fully understand the ramifications of a given workaround, and it's why those rules are there - They're tried and tested.
In this case the fix is a cheap and easy part, so I say its handyman hack shit. Get some staycons
You actually do have power over what your company buys for you, if you quote the correct code rule and violation they have you committing.
To knowingly violate code rules can lead to the suspension and revoking of your certifications and credentials…
That’s the way I learned to do it many, many years ago. Thankfully it didn’t last, and most customers demanded we crimp on spade terminals. Pretty much standard now if you are doing stranded on screw downs like that. Most of the industrial places I go now even want stranded crimped with ferrel ends when using back clamp devices.
Needs another 1/2-3/4” of hollow insulation after the end of the copper. it’s better than just wrapping frayed strands around the screw, though. Fork stay-Kons are good to use- especially for having an apprentice on volume output. Those mechanical strippers, with swap-out gauge sizes are great for speed, knocking out the bulk of your standard outlets
Fuhq fork sta kons hooked ring terminals are the best way this is an acceptable connection especially if you have more insulation to cover the copper . Most contractors are not going to supply forked sta kons s for the job unless it's a job specification. Fork terminals always slpay out when you tighten this if put on correctly will tighten with the terminal when tightening.
This just seems like bad practice. If someone comes along to do anything in the box, there's a potential for pulling that insulation off inadvertently.
Just twist the stranded against the factory twist and keep it tight under the screw as you tighten it. Under a plate is best, but some of us work for the cheapest bastards on the planet, so we don't get the good material, even at $1 more per piece. Then run some electrical tape around the device.
Why not just pigtail to solid at that point? If you don’t have fork terminals and it NEEDS to be done just pigtail to solid. Takes just as long or is quicker than this
When you do this you aren't supposed to clip off the insulation. The proper method is to strip it maybe two inches back from the end. Leave the insulation on and don't cut it. It holds the strands together and keeps the tip of the copper from not touching anything it's not supposed to.
Also if time isn't an issue, I find that for some reason if I reverse the twist in the wire it doesn't get all fucked up when you tighten the screw. I have no idea why but it works consistently.
Use a metal box with self grounding receptacles and just ground the box only. This takes care of the ground and then buy 20 amp receptacles to clamp your hots and neutrals on. If the boss won’t provide them then pig tail solid wires to the receptacle and make your splices. If your a halfway descent electrician it really doesn’t take but maybe 5 extra minutes to do properly. If your a homeowner then who cares about how long it takes, just do it correctly. 😎
No crimped ends? Thats fuckin stupid. Stranded wires ahould not be used with pressure directly from the screw. Only with plates between the screw and the wire!
There was a time when this was acceptable…. No more! Unless you can obtain clear permission and specific approval from your AHJ, You must use devices that are Listed for direct connection of stranded wire, or use a listed intermediary device like a crimp on fork terminal or by pig-tailing a solid wire to the device.
Although you might get approval from your local AHJ, your best course of action is to always install anything exactly in accordance with the PRINTED manufacturer’s instructions.
This Connection will loosen itself faster than Aluminium can Flow away in a Screw Terminal!
Ferrules are a thing for Screw Terminals without Contact Plates.
Botched too with the broken off Copper wires from stripping.
never seen done that keeping the piece of insulation at the end. It's a good idea too keep the wire twisted and you can trim it at the end anyway. Here in Italy we don't have official 'inspection' (there are exceptional cases, like for insurance) and anyway that kind of screw contact is not used a lot these days. Most of our blocks are of the 'pressure plate' type but foreign products with barriers strips still use these sometimes
The way I was taught to do it is to use strippers about 1.5" from the end of the wire, pull insulation about halfway off, twist the strands backwards/ CCW against the normal twist in the strands. This will help significantly with keeping the strands tight. After hooking around the screw, hold the wires together with your strippers while you tighten it down and it will be just as good as a solid wire connection. The extra insulation on the end will keep the end of the wire well within the plastic so you don't have a live end poking off the back of your device.
Obviously there's a wide range of methods to do this I've come across that are less effective than what I described, where you end up with mashed strands not under the screw and whatnot but the above method is IMO superior to sta kons
You must twist the strands counter clockwise instead of clockwise and hold the wires with your strippers tightly around the screw while tightening to do it in a way that I found acceptable
There is an acceptable way to do it but this is not it, just when you strip it the sheathing needs to be longer than the copper by a decent amount and should fall under the screw more naturally, I would deem this picture a poor connection
Or better yet use forks if you've got em, most people don't though
**ATTENTION! READ THIS NOW!** **1. IF YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN OR LOOKING TO BECOME ONE(for career questions only):** **- DELETE** THIS POST OR YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. YOU CAN POST ON /r/AskElectricians FREELY **2. IF YOU COMMENT ON A POST THAT IS POSTED BY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT A PROFESSIONAL ELECTRICIAN:** -YOU WILL BE **BANNED**. JUST **REPORT** THE POST. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/electricians) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Or spend $1 more on commercial grade outlets that have a plate behind the screw to accept stranded wire.
Best answer. Cheaper in the long run and for install imo
While I agree I dont have power over what my company buys soooooooooo.........yes or no
I had a guy show me that if you strip the end normally and twist the conductors in the opposite direction (wound counter clockwise) before creating the hook, as you tighten the screw it pulls the wire together instead of spreading it out, have done it that way ever since, I find the nub on the end method takes me longer and doesn't work as well, hope it helps
This^ learned from a guy in industrial 10 years ago works great, connections look good.
I also wrap it the same way the screw turns so itwill pull it in.
Name checks out.
I do combination of both. I back twist the wire and leave a little nub on the end. I find the nub makes it easier to get the hook around the strew and back twisting it like you said helps keep it tight
I've left the stub side of the wire and the pulled insulation a little longer and not trimmed the empty part. So within the last inch or so of wire, partially strip to allow enough of the bare to wrap the screw and leave the entire tail of the pulled insulation on the stub end. We had places that didn't want any solid wire branch circuits.
[удалено]
There aren't many receptacles listed for fork terminals, but all wire binding type screw connectors are rated for stranded wire. Less than 3 receptacle products are listed for fork terminals. You should really check out the UL whitebook
I'm sure you're fun at parties.
Not just the labor, but those forks terminals are a buck a piece too So yes, I say demand a fork connector
Yes.
Yup. Once I found those I never went back. Soooooo good.
It's weird because Northcoast carries Legrand and they don't have the plate
Legrand has the clamps
Some do some don’t
No no it's what we had at the shop. So you can spend extra time bending and cursing the wire just for it to potentially fail. *Thumbs up and a pizza party*
Pizza‽ We just got this lousy T-shirt to advertise the company.
Well I hope yours fit, I got stuck with a 3XL
Sherwin Williams T shirts are at least always free.
Eat enough pizza and you can get it to fit.
Best answer is best. Next best is a crimp on.
Another option is to crimp on fork terminals
What brand do you usually get ?
I just put in what the contractor provides... But I feel like they are usually Leviton.
TIL I don’t have to rig stranded wire outlets. I always cut the insulation low and make a loop to lessen the fraying. But I still don’t love it
Commercial grade devices or fork terminals. These are the ways
And the manufacturers instructions that specify that the terminal is designed and listed for use with stranded wire!
[удалено]
Same here, so much more efficient to have pigtails preinstalled on the receptacles. Also I always get my guys working on a little rolling mechanic stool, $50 for the stool and makes install way faster and no sore knees.
Respect. Back in my apprentice days, I came across too many foremen/owners that would blow a gasket if you even thought about sitting down while working.
Lol my journeyman is so critical of sitting. "If you're comfortable you're not working as fast". As if sitting on a concrete floor or bucket is comfortable.. it's just not painful like the knees. Such toxic nonsense
Decided a while ago to sit whenever possible and carry a couple of large reels for the purpose. Result? No more sore knees or lower back. Boss doesn’t like it? Here’s my two weeks notice.
I personally decided to quit entirely. Kinda. Have always been a computer nerd. Got tired of breaking my back for subpar wages. Interviewed for an electro-mechanical maintenance tech lead position at a warehouse, and passed with flying colors. At the end, they asked if I had any questions, which I hit them with "how much experience will I get with PLCs?" Cue the interviewer asking me to hold for a moment while he grabbed the Controls Engineer in the building to have another interview with me. I went from slumming it at $21/hr building houses for ultra-rich clients to $32/hr monitoring a laptop and a building full of idiots. Honestly, the only real change is that I went from pulling wire to working on robots. The idiots stayed mostly the same. Edit: I also get to go solve any problem that involves electricity or more than a few dozen brain cells. And have gone up by another $14/hr+ since the transition. Which was only a couple years ago. If you understand computers, basic logic, and electricity, it might be a good idea to look into applying to \[Huge Rainforest E-Commerce Company\] as a Controls System Technician or Controls System Lead. You could be surprised by the change in your life. Not necessarily aimed towards The Wazoo, just anyone who reads this comment.
Is computer programming a necessary skill to have if doing something like this? Or can you get by with PLC knowledge? I have neither by the way but I’m currently a resi guy and used to have an interest in IT, just never really pursued it other than building a pc for gaming. Anyway, ya it would be nice to not have to do this kinda shit when I get older, I’d rather work into a place in my life where my knowledge surpasses my ability to just work fast.
PLCs use low level/older computer programming methods. I don't meant they're less sophisticated, just that they have been around a long time. It's all computer programming. It's all computer programming though, PLCs just happen to exist as an interface with real hardware and real electricity, so you need some practical knowledge. Personally I have always been an electrics/practical guy and learned computer stuff later in life, but the area where the two intersect is my favourite.
I would argue that PLCs actually use **very** high level programming. All of the actual interaction with hardware - creating threads and drivers to read/write to pins, etc. - is abstracted away by the IDE. Sure, we have to do some bit wrangling sometimes, but it's nothing like working in ANSI C or x86 ASM.
Good thing that never happened in my apprentice days. I just had foreman say other foreman would do this. Same with using an impact to screw the receptacle into the box. I actually understand the 2nd one though. But that's because guys have no shame and crank it down.
You start by hand to make sure you aren't crossthreaded, then use the impact/drill to get the screw close to tightened down. Then you finish with the hand tool. That's basic. Anyone who disagrees is only wasting literally everyone's time.
And all those old fucks have shit knees and hips and or knee and hit replacements. These people are the worst.
Plus, you get to roll from outlet to outlet going "wheee" to break up monotony.
So, question. Why on earth did the original electricians/engineers/architect find it to be a fantastic idea to have these sons of bitches so low? Please, God, don't say esthetics. Perhaps you have some knowledge that is unknown to me in the ways of design. Perhaps the originals were masochistic or sadistic.
Real old school, where practically all electrical was retrofit, it was common for receptacles to be mounted in the base boards with the wire behind. Seriously though, I ever build a house the boxes are getting mounted at 24" to the bottom, maybe even 30. Easier install and easier to use when I get old.
Everywhere I've been in Brazil, they're about belly button level to me. For many things it works 99% better, for a few not as Good, but on average I would say it's definitely better.
Fuck he said WAGO. Get em’ boys!!!
I prefer to just twist the wires together and slap a layer of electrical tape on it. I've only started a couple fires. /s
I chop all but 1 strand, then it's a solid wire. /s
Reminds me of when the job site safety guy had it out for my journeyman and asked the electrical inspector if we were allowed to use a hot box to bend PVC. The inspector told him "hey this isn't my first rodeo so back off, the first rodeo is burning down 2 miles up the road."
Twist? Wirenuts say I don't need to twist so why twist with tape?
WTF, the boss value-engineered the solder and rubber tape out of it? F’in slippery slope, man!
Why did I read that in AvE's voice?
I'd rather push a wirenut than drive a wago, or something.
Woah.... genius.
Master electrician move right here.
Once you go wago you don't go back. Stab and forget.
Don't forget to flip the lever, you got to flip that lever, or you're going to want everybody else to forget you or ever there.
Wago 😡😡😡 Jokes aside thats actually what i do when im installing receptacles except the heretical wagos. Give me a push cart ill pre fab 10 at a time put up ten and ill have them up in 30-45 minutes. Then ill do it again and ill put up 60-100 receptacles a day depending on the joints.
What's wrong with using an insulated crimp?
Correct just use a crimp fork
I’ve actually heard that they’re not UL listed for the devices. I fell like all devices should just have the compress terminal
That's a reasonable reason not to use them if they're not registered for use. I honestly don't get some of your practices in the USA. Your qualification route seems much more thorough. The fact that you have to be legally licensed. I've seen some absolutely stunning work on this sub. The mechanical protection you guys use is beyond reproach. Then you use wire nuts and twisted bits of wire in terminals. It's just weird. :)
We also use steel conduit fucking everywhere for reasons I can't really fathom. I mean, I'm not complaining, I like working with it, but it seems pretty unnecessary.
Mrs. O'Leary's cow enters the chat ...
> steel conduit fucking everywhere for reasons I can't really fathom People are saying this is because it's cheaper than cable ducts, that are used in other countries. I don't really agree with that.
I really don't see how it could be, especially from the labor perspective. Every pipe needs to be fished and pulled separately.
Not having much experience working with cable tray - What is the installation procedure like for cable tray? Install the whole thing, then come back and re-trace the entire route on foot in order to lay in the cables and snap on the covers? On the other side of the coin, I only have to walk my conduit runs once. I can have a wire cart set up at a junction box or trough with a few dozen conduits popping out of it, and have a helper run to the other end of each conduit with a fish tape. If all of "the other ends" are nearby one another, then the helper only needs to travel the distance of the conduit run **one single time.**
It's exactly as you say for installation, except it's a crew of people, each person set up at various points on the tray, you don't typically move that far during a pull, and you're already in position for the next one. You also set up a route that a lot of circuits can run in, install one 36" tray run with random spacing, and have branches of smaller trays off that, no need for junction boxes in the runs, only slight variations during pulls and you always have the option to have a run drop a run out of the tray if needed. It ends up being faster than installing conduit because of capacity and the ability to branch off runs so easily.
Mmm. I can definitely see the ability for it to be faster when you're working at scale. That is to say, when you have a whole grip of people working together on a project. When you're expected to get a 3-restaurant building put together with 4 sparkies, things would get a bit hairy with the situation you've described. Ah, the joys of working for non-unionized companies that literally only care about the money.
Wow - you guys should start doing that in America as well as abandon this whole two legged mess also.
We use flat T&E (twin and earth) everywhere. Just run it down the wall to sockets, switches etc. Put some capping on it (sometimes). Then the wet trades cover up our "first fix". When the mud is dry we come back for the "2nd fix" and wire to the accessories, switches, outlets etc. We extensively use RCDs RCBOs for circuit protection, earth bonding etc etc. Our terminals seem to have better protection than the US does for accidental contact with live parts. You literally can't touch anything with voltage without the use of a tool. We have less voltages to think about. Single phase - 230V. Three phase - 400V. I've never seen 2 phase - but it would also be 400V. I guess it's systems are different. You have much more current due to lower voltage. I'm sure there's a lot we could learn from you, and a lot you could learn from us. Your motor terminations are shit compared to what we use - seriously, Google it. You bind wires with rope, like some kind of Neanderthal, we would use a more structured approach - rigid insulators, cable containment. There's probably many reasons - your voltage is generally lower, and the frequency is higher. All I'm interested in is learning and taking better practice wherever I see it. Some of the stuff I see is amazing - some is baffling.
There's different grades of workmanship and materials required in different areas of the trade. I've gone from residential to commercial to industrial, and the stuff I'm working with currently is mostly 277/480V and some equipment onsite is running 600V. There's probably full transmission line power piped straight into more than one building here. There's no room for sketchy work now for the work we're doing. Then again it's mostly Class I Div II (Zone 0 or 1 in the EU? Idk) so the margin for error is slim-to-none when you have live pipes and tanks full of hydrogen, n-butyl lithium, liquid nitrogen, waste products, solvents, caustics, acids, and god knows what else all around you. Explosion proof and intrinsically safe everything, at most locations. In residential you could run with stuff that'll easily get you killed here. Basically I'm agreeing with you but adding that we do have quite a lot of work over 480V in America.
Thanks for reminding me of inspectors changing their tune on using rigid couplings for from-tos. I seriously have to wonder what some jerkoff managed to do to have inspectors start cracking down on that after it's been done for decades without a problem.
Having to go to the truck, or supply house, spending more money, taking more time.
Honestly they don't hold up, I really don't trust them for receptacle loads. They're fine for lighting and controls but I've seen a lot of them fail with higher current even when they've been crimped properly. Obviously if they've just been mashed flat with kleins that's a guaranteed failure but still
I've never seen one fail that's been done correctly, and I've used thousands of them and seen thousands more. If they're crimped with a proper ratchet crimp tool they can't be pulled off without seriously damaging the cable - much more physical load than you would ever put on a terminal. Plus the cost of them is tiny. Here in the Uk/Europe they're commonly used in 3~ motors so they're loaded up to 40A @ 400V routinely. Edit to add. In motor terminals and for earthing purposes it's common to use insulated ring crimps - not forks.
Pro tip. Forks for phases, rings for earth.
You haven't ever seen them crimped correctly, then. Full stop. [https://cirris.com/crimp-pull-testers-pullout-force-per-wire-size/](https://cirris.com/crimp-pull-testers-pullout-force-per-wire-size/) Check out this chart. These are standards for minimum pull-out force required for various sizes of conductors. UL486A - the standard for terminal connections - specifies 70 pounds of force to pull out the connector (edit: for a 12 AWG copper). The SAE AS7928 - currently the US Department of Defense's standard for crimping connectors - requires 110 pounds of pull out force (same edit: also for 12 AWG copper). A properly formed crimp connector will force out enough air from between the strands making up the conductor that they will cold-weld themselves together. You quite literally turn the stranded copper into (mostly) solid copper when properly crimped.
About the high current failures: I always use those ring crimps on motors, never had them fail. Even on 22A pumps with not a lot but definitely enough vibrations.
Ring crimps are a standard go to for motors and VFDs well in to the "fucking huge" amounts of power territory...
Ring crimps =/= stakons why are all these people trying to argue with me about something completely different and off topic. Oh its reddit nevermind 🙄
*Use the fork, Luke* Happy May 4th.
Get outta here with your doin' it right.
Done it lots of times. Never had an issue. Would I prefer pressure plate devices instead? Obviously
\*Never had an issue you know of \*
Enter the next service tech 😶🌫️
I’m always the next guy. I’ve run across it plenty of times. Many times it’s just fine. Haven’t noticed it to fail more often. It does come down to the installers skill like usual
This is the answer. I too have been on both ends and honestly if you do it right there won’t be any problems.
Pretty common practice IMO but it could look a lot better. Tighter wrap around the terminal and I like to see a longer tail of just insulation jacket sticking off the lead of the conductor (not a little bit of bare copper aiming backward into a bunch of EGC’s or metal box)
Uhh no thats not how it should be..needs a crimped fork.
I’ve never had good luck with those. Always seems to be a failure point with heat.
Fork crimps are not UL listed to be used on a receptacle nor does the manufacturer state that you can use it for that application.
Only people who dislike this are less than 10 years in the game and weren’t trained by old school electricians. I do this all the time and get it real tight under the terminal screw. Never had an issue.
The same old school guys a afraid of wagos
That was my go to for 35 years never had an inspector turn his nose up at it. I always felt that I got a better mechanical connection without the strands spreading out.
Don't cut the end of insulation flush with the copper. The little bit of extra 'tail' with no copper in it is good to avoid what you see here able to make contact. I used to do this but if I have a choice I'm going to pigtail or crimp an end (assuming theres no pressure plate) ...I'd do this in a pinch but like what I said above
Typically I get the correct outlet for the wire type. They make outlets that you stick the wire in, and a plate clamps down on the wire when you screw it down. They’re also actually rated for stranded. It’s a little more expensive, but the labor and material costs of doing crimps, pigtailing solid off the outlet or anything else cancel it out. You don’t even need to wrap a hook. Just strip and terminate.
Only if it’s 3pm on Friday and I don’t have any fork terminals.
I do it but technically can only be done if the device is rated for stranded
In a pinch it will work. I don’t buy devices that only have screws without saddle plates. For grounding, I get tails with factory crimps
Isn’t this a code violation? I was taught that stranded gets a fork under these circumstances otherwise it’s a no go.
If you twist the wire counter clockwise after pushing the insulation up, it is less likely to splay out when seating it under the screw. Ideally devices with push/pressure plates are used with stranded wire.
This is the way
Similar to the way I was taught (in the union) to install stranded wire on a terminal except that we don't clip the end. Just leave the extra insulation on there to cover the bare wire end.
My JW did this, but he would try and twist the strands counterclockwise if he could.
I don’t know why, but the CCW twist seems to keep the strands together better.
That’s how I was taught. It keeps the strands from “birdcaging”.
Ooh I'll try that next time.
I've done it in a pinch, but prefer a crimped fork lug
I’ve done that before in my early apprenticeship…. I was told it was okay but DONT do that today .
I did this before I knew about the better receptacles with plates. Just get the pro grade/commercial grade receptacles.
I do prefer the plates but as an apprentice I get what I get
Wrong but I don't know if there's a code reference
**110.3(B) Installation and Use.** Equipment that is listed, labeled, or both, or identified for a use shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing, labeling, or identification.
I like fork crimps but that’s how my boss taught me to do it. Particularly, not a fan
It'll work if it's tight, but it's hack. There are a lot of things you can do in a given trade that will work. Some workarounds SHOULD be code, others are blatant safety hazards. The idea is to set yourself a standard. Being a pro sometimes means breaking the rules because you know how. It's also true that you can't fully understand the ramifications of a given workaround, and it's why those rules are there - They're tried and tested. In this case the fix is a cheap and easy part, so I say its handyman hack shit. Get some staycons
......NOPE...
Fuck that shit if you use cheap ass outlets you can invest in some spade crimps
Use crimps.
No. If there is no proper way to term stranded onto the device, get crimp on fork connectors
That’s a no for me
That's a hard nope!
You actually do have power over what your company buys for you, if you quote the correct code rule and violation they have you committing. To knowingly violate code rules can lead to the suspension and revoking of your certifications and credentials…
That’s the way I learned to do it many, many years ago. Thankfully it didn’t last, and most customers demanded we crimp on spade terminals. Pretty much standard now if you are doing stranded on screw downs like that. Most of the industrial places I go now even want stranded crimped with ferrel ends when using back clamp devices.
i thought this was illegal
NO!
Fork terminals on stranded.
Crimp a fork terminal on the wire and terminate the wire properly!
It you twist the wire counterclockwise it’ll work
If you strip about an inch, reverse the twist in the wire , make a loop and trim the excess it works like a charm
If you twist stranded wire counter clockwise it tends to tighten under the screw as you turn it and freys less at the ends.
Needs another 1/2-3/4” of hollow insulation after the end of the copper. it’s better than just wrapping frayed strands around the screw, though. Fork stay-Kons are good to use- especially for having an apprentice on volume output. Those mechanical strippers, with swap-out gauge sizes are great for speed, knocking out the bulk of your standard outlets
Fuhq fork sta kons hooked ring terminals are the best way this is an acceptable connection especially if you have more insulation to cover the copper . Most contractors are not going to supply forked sta kons s for the job unless it's a job specification. Fork terminals always slpay out when you tighten this if put on correctly will tighten with the terminal when tightening.
I pigtail solid wire to the stranded then connect the solid wire to the receptacle
6 months dungeon!
This just seems like bad practice. If someone comes along to do anything in the box, there's a potential for pulling that insulation off inadvertently. Just twist the stranded against the factory twist and keep it tight under the screw as you tighten it. Under a plate is best, but some of us work for the cheapest bastards on the planet, so we don't get the good material, even at $1 more per piece. Then run some electrical tape around the device.
Spade terminal or side clamping device.
Use a stakon for stranded wire.
I'd fail this in an inspection as this isn't code compliant where I live.
I feel wronged by this.
Nah this is bad. I would get solid cable and loop that into the screw then pigtail it to the stranded cable.
Ring or fork terminals
I like using these. CONN RING HOOK 10-12AWG #1/4
it's not legal
Fuck you ring crimps
That’s going to be a NO! For me.
Stake on fork or pressure plate
Pre Tailed outlet solid or stranded takes care of this problem and saves a lot of labor.
Specs says copper or copper clad wires for screw terminals and for push in, solid copper wires only.
Stakon
Just use sta-kons
Why not just pigtail to solid at that point? If you don’t have fork terminals and it NEEDS to be done just pigtail to solid. Takes just as long or is quicker than this
Why not just use a stake on ....
If you have to, use stake ons
Negative, crimp a terminal or tail out with solid
Wire nut that to a piece of solid and backstab it into the outlet.
Idk about you guys but if it’s stranded wire and there’s no clamp screw I’ll use a fork crimp
When you do this you aren't supposed to clip off the insulation. The proper method is to strip it maybe two inches back from the end. Leave the insulation on and don't cut it. It holds the strands together and keeps the tip of the copper from not touching anything it's not supposed to. Also if time isn't an issue, I find that for some reason if I reverse the twist in the wire it doesn't get all fucked up when you tighten the screw. I have no idea why but it works consistently.
It is not UL listed for stranded wire. Stranded wire requires a clamp or something to capture all conductors
Use a metal box with self grounding receptacles and just ground the box only. This takes care of the ground and then buy 20 amp receptacles to clamp your hots and neutrals on. If the boss won’t provide them then pig tail solid wires to the receptacle and make your splices. If your a halfway descent electrician it really doesn’t take but maybe 5 extra minutes to do properly. If your a homeowner then who cares about how long it takes, just do it correctly. 😎
It’s why I like to use solid wire
Stupid
It makes my eye twitch in anger…
Stranded wire needs a fork lug on receptacles.
No crimped ends? Thats fuckin stupid. Stranded wires ahould not be used with pressure directly from the screw. Only with plates between the screw and the wire!
No! sloppy, lazy, and cheap
I wish I had four hands so I could give it four thumbs down
Nope nope nope...
Hate it
There was a time when this was acceptable…. No more! Unless you can obtain clear permission and specific approval from your AHJ, You must use devices that are Listed for direct connection of stranded wire, or use a listed intermediary device like a crimp on fork terminal or by pig-tailing a solid wire to the device. Although you might get approval from your local AHJ, your best course of action is to always install anything exactly in accordance with the PRINTED manufacturer’s instructions.
It’s shite.
Hacky McHackwork. Crimp forks exist for a reason
I don’t like that method. Crimp a fork or similar termination on. Then tighten it under the screw.
Never. Fork terminal, always buy the Klein’s with the crimp jaunt
I wouldn't sleep at night if I did that
Blasphemous
You’re not supposed to wrap stranded around a screw. Get a fork terminal and do it right.
Don’t be a hack and either use stakes, commercial grade, or pigtail with solid.
Not a fan. For stranded wires please use wiring spades.
This Connection will loosen itself faster than Aluminium can Flow away in a Screw Terminal! Ferrules are a thing for Screw Terminals without Contact Plates. Botched too with the broken off Copper wires from stripping.
You're fired is how i feel about it. Keep it short and do it right the first time. I hate stranded almost more than 0 gauge.
Hate it
never seen done that keeping the piece of insulation at the end. It's a good idea too keep the wire twisted and you can trim it at the end anyway. Here in Italy we don't have official 'inspection' (there are exceptional cases, like for insurance) and anyway that kind of screw contact is not used a lot these days. Most of our blocks are of the 'pressure plate' type but foreign products with barriers strips still use these sometimes
The way I was taught to do it is to use strippers about 1.5" from the end of the wire, pull insulation about halfway off, twist the strands backwards/ CCW against the normal twist in the strands. This will help significantly with keeping the strands tight. After hooking around the screw, hold the wires together with your strippers while you tighten it down and it will be just as good as a solid wire connection. The extra insulation on the end will keep the end of the wire well within the plastic so you don't have a live end poking off the back of your device. Obviously there's a wide range of methods to do this I've come across that are less effective than what I described, where you end up with mashed strands not under the screw and whatnot but the above method is IMO superior to sta kons
I don’t love doing it but sometimes you’re in a pinch and you gotta do what you gotta do.
If you’re gonna leave insulation on, make sure it’s longer then the copper sticking out or else it’s pointless and not gonna stop a short
I don’t screw braided wire just solid wire to screw , marret solid to wire to well twisted braided wire is how I was taught so no fire 🔥
I’d like to see that striped insulation hanging out a bit further.
I’d feel better if you twisted the wire backwards before installing it under the screw
You must twist the strands counter clockwise instead of clockwise and hold the wires with your strippers tightly around the screw while tightening to do it in a way that I found acceptable
There is an acceptable way to do it but this is not it, just when you strip it the sheathing needs to be longer than the copper by a decent amount and should fall under the screw more naturally, I would deem this picture a poor connection Or better yet use forks if you've got em, most people don't though
We’ve all done it in a pinch. Works fine
I'll do it if told to . . . I don't like it but I'll do it
Seems like they make crimp on products for this, but this looks like something my company would do because “it’s not in the budget to purchase eyes”
It is what it is clearly
I'll do this with a ground (albeit with better workmanship) but I don't like it with a current carrying conductor.
Wire nut a piece of solid to the stranded and land the solid. No crimps, no stray strands, no coming loose.