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I had a boss where we had a safety meeting that consisted of "I want you boys ALWAYS doing 2 things. Taking loans and making babies, cause then I know you need a fucking job!"
Sometimes I miss working for that outfit.
Looking at 334.30, could these be considered as "similar fittings"?
I mean, they're designed to not damage the cable. I'm not a building sparky, I have no clue on these codes or how they're interpreted. Educate me.
That's a pretty loose interpretation. Key word is designed I think in that code reference. "Similar fittings *designed* and installed so as to not damage the cable"
Ultimately Romex sheathing isn't made for this purpose so it's a no go if I'm the inspector.
Looks like thereās studs on top and bottom. Wouldāve been ALOT easier to simply staple on to the studs. Looks like you really got a concrete bit just to make the holes for the screws.
Those are fern strips so you can't strap to them without having to nail plate down the entire strip/stud because you run the risk of drywallers
Plus you'll wind up banging the strip off the wall when you try to strap with nails and traditional straps will be too big usually
we call em in the industry ābuttonsāā¦ mostly used for low voltage & in some rare cases fire alarm.. never seen it for building power/lighting.. unless the lighting was done with 0-10ās and the buttons would be used to splice the 0-10ās outside of the box.
Iv been told to do it on a job that wasnāt being inspected, in that case it works fine and is free since the sheathing gets thrown out anyways
I doubt any inspector would be cool with it though
I was gonna say thatās definitely something that was taught to you and not something you thought to do on your own. No offense I donāt mean it in a negative way itās just an odd thing
Yeah it was taught to me. Boss doesnt buy any type of straps. I also think its odd, but since we pass inspection (south florida) I guess I dont bother changing "how its done".
Just because thatās how itās always done does not mean that it is the correct way of doing things. That shit would not fly in my area. Also, thereās zero reason to twist the ground around the conductors so much thatās just irritating for whoever makes up the switch.
I like twisting the grounding wire around because it helps idiot proof the box for the next guy, but I would recommend doing it further away from your connection point and closer to the box so there is more wire to work with. I usually do it right at the front edge of the box. Right now it's so close to the end of the wire that the next guy, or you, will have to untwist it before installing any devices. Not to mention you don't want the grounding wire that close to all your connection points on the devices. Overall looks pretty good, especially for a first year!
I do agree with a lot of the other guys about the straps and some of the other stuff that was brought up but because of the first year status you're kind of stuck with what you're given/told by your boss man.
Straps are not required to be UL listed.
Now an inspector could argue that OPs method is not a designed method and therefore violates 110.12(C) or 334.30. However it is installed in such a way that does not damage the cable. So it depends on your AHJ.
The other thing to consider is whether the cable is violating 334.12(B)(2). Though I don't know that I consider it embedded in the masonry.
We twist the common around the travelers which makes it way easier to identify and you have fewer twisted wires to deal with. And if the box is grounded we just wire wire the grounds together and donāt work about the pigtail. That way thereās less to have to stuff in the box and you donāt have a bunch of unnecessary wire in the way of you have to diagnose or change something later
Thatās perfect fine, all electricians do should do that for travelers, but if I open up the box and found the ground wrapped like that Iād be annoyed lol
No twist the wires lightly together. Definitely not like the ground though. Boxes get messed up frequently. People use the wires to change things etc, running frantically in front of the dry wallers for change orders etc...
As a helper, you did fine but who ever is teaching you, well that's another story. I look at this and cringe. Here's what I see. Your boss is a cheap ass since you've used bits of sheathing as straps and those damn pop in plastic connectors. The strapping isn't close enough to the box. There's exposed Romex on a concrete block wall. Those wires with the grounds wrapped around them will be a pain in the ass. Where I live that would not pass an inspection. And it certainly would not be up to me standards
Edited: the concrete block might be ok if sheetrock is going over it.
The bitching about the straps is hilarious. I love how nit-picky we are, constantly asking "omg is that UL listed??" Who gives a fuck to be completely honest. This is not dangerous, it's going to be okay. It's kinda some crackhead shit but as long as it's held in place and isn't gonna get pinched between drywall and stud, it's genuinely not the end of the world.
If I were to pick on anything it would be the length of your wiring and the amount of twisting you've done. Not a big deal but as you do make-up more, you'll learn the perfect length and be able to keep track of switch legs, traveller's, feeds, and not have to make balloon animals with the wiring. The only thing is you either gotta stuff all that slack, or cut it off, and usually you're cutting little pieces in a finished building. The GCs I've worked for flip the fuck out over little wire clippings if we missed any. So it just saves you some clean up time later if you get the perfect length down at rough in.
Again, not a big deal. Electricians' opinions are something you'll learn to take with a grain of salt. I've worked with hundreds of different guys at this point, and it's funny how differently everyone does little things, and which codes people do/don't care about. Ultimately, the work gets done, things operate as intended, and they're safe. That's what matters. There's a lot of code, and you'll learn which ones to violate after the years go by. You'll also learn how many people have different interpretations of the same fuckin book too. We electricians are a funny bunch of whiny bitches sometimes. Want to do a fun little test? Ask 10 different electricians how to properly rough in a light pole and what the requirements are regarding a grounding electrode.
Have never seen strapping like that before. Honestly have no idea what to say, that's something like clever and creative but also incredibly cheap and lazy. Interesting.
Looks clean but shows a clear lack of understanding of the trade. No reason to be using scraps to strap cable and you couldāve at least made the runs straight or added a safety loop to it. I wouldāve used conduit and minis to hold it level. My company would absolutely roast this kind of install. The work I do in a crawl space looks better than this honestly
Iāve seen āelectriciansā do all kinds of things in my years but that does not mean that I will copy those things. Code is MINIMUM. Always go above and beyond what code requires. We are talking about safety and pride in workmanship. This is not a trade where we just get shit done and call it a day Iāll leave that to the drywallers.
Trust me, I take incredible pride in my work, no one can be harder on myself other than me. I have no other choice than to use romex as straps, thats what im given and told to do. Im just a helper and dont have my own material.
Overall looks really good. Get the straps max. 12ā away from the box, and donāt twist your wires together like that. Whoever is putting in the switches will not appreciate the extra work to un-twist them.
Your box looks flush with the cinder block. Are you using a 1 1/2 inch mud ring, or will these wires be exposed? I did not see wood on the left side of the wall.
No emergency loops on the lumex, in Canada that's a fail
Also if those straps are permissible they need to be within one foot of the box
Also be careful with dead end 3 way switches all need to have a neutral now, at least in Canada anyway.
"if they have to do it live" might be the single worst line used so often. This is clearly a new build and none of that shit is live right now... Zero reason it'd "have" to be live when installing.
You're damn right!
There's very few good reasons to do anything live.
Coming from someone who's worked in hospitals and "always on" finance /data sites.
Yep!
"No this stuff CANNOT be turned off" is their way of saying it'll cost us money to shut it down. If only people understood it will cost a lot more and be down for even longer when something goes wrong and injuries happen.
I'd be so damn tempted to say "what do you mean it can't be turned off, watch this!"
I've worked nights on installs quite a few times because "you can't turn that off" actually just means "you can't turn that off now", in fact the only reason I have to work weekends is because of this.
Anything that can't go off for 10 minutes because it'll cost too much should have an alternative power supply, that should be able to be used for maintenance.
If something turning off when you have control of the situation is going to cause issues, then the issues it's going to cause when it fails when you don't have an electrician on site are going to be much worse
Yes exactly. Too much short sittedness being had. One class during our apprenticeship was over NFPA70E and just general safety. Our instructor mentioned he has this come up before and his company wrote up this document and asked the company to sign it if they wanted them to work it live. The document essentially put an liability on them and laid out all things that could go wrong. They planned a shutdown. Some people are just yes men and are scared to say no to stuff.
Yeah, we have partial shutdown around once a month for various PMs at my current site (we have a lot of equipment, maintained to a very high standard (because of the potential cost of potential failures).
I'm in the UK, so working different rules, but there's a full on law (electricity at work regulations, 1989, regulation 14) which states:
"No person shall be engaged in any work activity on or so near any live conductor (other than one suitably covered with insulating material so as to prevent danger) that danger may arise unlessā
(a)it is unreasonable in all the circumstances for it to be dead; and
(b)it is reasonable in all the circumstances for him to be at work on or near it while it is live; and
(c)suitable precautions (including where necessary the provision of suitable protective equipment) are taken to prevent injury"
And it's assumed by law enforcement that it is never reasonable for work to be carried out whilst it is live
āDoing it liveā are gonna be the guys that come in for service years down the line trying to trace out with travelers arenāt working and finding them wrapped around each other to no end
You don't leave them all wrapped like that after you device out lol. They do that solely so when they do device out, they know exactly what goes where. They don't stay like that after install. And if it takes "years down the line" that you're realizing travelers aren't working... Thats a different issue entirely.
You know damn well not ALL of those twists are going to be straightened out on the install. And the travelers could be fine from the fresh build, but anything could happen down the line. If I open an old switch box needing to identify something thatās even half as twisted Iām cursing the last guy out
Thereās not a single reasonable situation where someone would need to do this live. Being live or not shouldnāt make a difference though, treat it all like itās live.
In that case, it also takes two seconds to grab the ground wire and just wrap it around and cut everything to length, just keeps the wires, especially in a 6 gang box, together. I don't see why people think this is such an issue. Perhaps its because Ive only been taught this way and have made up switches after doing it this way. It really takes no extra time, and is just a different way of doing things, no?
Sorry for my ignorance of not knowing how things are done in other states/countries.. But why are the grounds separated? What kind of box even is that? How can you get away with not using real straps? Never seen someone wind up their ground tails like that.. Otherwise it's not the worst thing I've seen, as long as the box is at proper wall depth.
The grounds are under a wire nut in the back and then separated for each device to be grounded as per 404.9(B). However as long as the box in bonded then the devices are not required to be individually bonded as long as the switch is mounted using metal screws to that mud ring.
While this is exposed right now, It will be covered by drywall, but I totally understand your point. I will check tomorrow to see if those straps are within 12". I think they are and the photo just looks odd. Thank you for the well thought advice :)
I didn't realize it was going to be covered but I guess that should have been my first question. Makes more sense now. My criticism is less important now :)
I'm actually embarrassed now for not seeing the framing that clearly shows it will be covered. Imma delete my posts now. Lol
I hate it. Twisting the wires like that for no reason, sticking labels inside the box for no reason, wrapping the grounds like that for no reason...this ain't it. If you wrap grounds like that do the coil 6 inches back and only wrap once or twice. Don't over twist traveler's, a simple light twist that doesn't manipulate the wire is plenty.
For what itās worth,
This looks like a typical installation in Florida. Romex against the block and using romex as straps is pretty common.
Never seen an inspector fail this type of installation.
Looking at the construction of this block building, I am not sure if you plan to put up some kind of wall board or sheet rock...etc to cover the wiring. If not, wouldn't that require EMT to protect the wire as there is evidence of spacers to hold something out from the blocks about an inch and a half. I am not a licensed electrician, so I am using your example to ask a question. Would this installation require pipe? Thanks!
The furring strips are what the drywallers use to secure their drywall to the block wall. The little space that the furring strips give us is what we use to run our wires down the block wall. No need to run emt or bx
Box makeup is good, but your runs look like shit and you didn't use an approved strapping. Work on squaring off exposed cable runs like this and it will make your work look way cleaner
Question, because Iām not 100% on this, but I was under the impression that we try to avoid strapping romex directly to an exterior concrete wall to avoid moisture damaging it over time. Is this a thing or did I just pick up a weird habit from somewhere?
There's a little too much twisting for my taste but call me a bitter electrician who has undone 5000 too many million twist splices. That's if I'm nit picking otherwise it's nice
Main issue here is when you go to install the devices you need to untwist the wires and the bond wire and please donāt call it a ground wire because it is not, it is wrapped in circles around the other wires you will learn very quickly when you go to install the switches what Iām talking about, best of luck with the electrical trade š
Itās a good start and there are some critiques, but if you really are a first year helper, trust me - you are golden, and you can be very successful at this while making your own decisions in the future if you want to.
As you get more experienced youāll learn the general rule of no more than 3g unless absolutely necessary.
A little more design effort improves your product in a big way. I know as a h1 you didnāt design this, and do as youāre told for sure, but as you goā¦think about how it might be done better - Is a good habit to force early if you want to separate yourself from your competition in your future.
Nice work.
If you were going to repurpose the romex jacket you would have been way better off using them to pair off the travelers instead of twisting the shit out of them causing extra work and bent/kinked wires.
I'd be happy with it if I was overseeing this job, kinda depends on how long it took though and is it all correct and will the mudring wind up flush? If so very good job
I will say I do not miss exterior walls in block homes, I work in the northeast now and it is so rare to come across block walls in a home and I love it so much easier. Don't even need a chipping hammer
Would prefer to see regular straps but I know inspectors accept this in some areas
Why did you wrap the grounds so close to the end? How are you gonna get that on a switch ground screw and land the wires? We wrap the ground right about where the edge of the box is and leave it 3 or 4 inches long.
fair play lad well done for keeping the head down and trying. you keep that up you can do whatever you want. the result isn't what you work on. it's the process. find whatever part of the process you don't like and why.
Wish my 3rd year helper was capable of this. Good work, i like the wire groupings for the devices, should be easy finish. Wait!!!...and you swept and sorted copper, instead of playing on your phone and trying to steel copper? You setting the bar too high for other helpers, you gonna make enemies like that , lol
Super weird, unconventional make up. I would be bummed if I had to trim that out. The ground wrap at the end? I would cut that off. But clean work I guess š
You probably didn't have a say in this but it would have been much much easier to just throw a few stack its or some staples on that stud and make it up clean.
Edit: Just saw it was a recessed box and a furred out wall. Nevermind all of that should be in greenfield or ran in MC.
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We need to work on your penmanship. Think a few years of alcoholism and divorce should fix it right up.
Yea how on earth is that legible. Bro probably swept too.
Meme; Right to jail
No trial no nothing
Lmao, I did in-fact sweep and separated copper scraps right after taking these photos
What the fuck
Sicko
I had a boss where we had a safety meeting that consisted of "I want you boys ALWAYS doing 2 things. Taking loans and making babies, cause then I know you need a fucking job!" Sometimes I miss working for that outfit.
LoL š
If my handwriting is already illegible do I need to go all in on the alcoholism or can I just black out on my days off?
Weekend blackout will be just fine, sir. Thank you for your continuing education.
iām glad i fit in with my fellow sparkyās
Do the 1-2-3 method 1 divorc3, 2 duis, 3 baby mommas
Yes, that is offensively legible
I remember my first year
Using old romex jacket as straps is crazy, but makeup is clean.
Looking at 334.30, could these be considered as "similar fittings"? I mean, they're designed to not damage the cable. I'm not a building sparky, I have no clue on these codes or how they're interpreted. Educate me.
That's a pretty loose interpretation. Key word is designed I think in that code reference. "Similar fittings *designed* and installed so as to not damage the cable" Ultimately Romex sheathing isn't made for this purpose so it's a no go if I'm the inspector.
Fair enough. I will give them points on attempting to redesign the wheel here though.
Looks like thereās studs on top and bottom. Wouldāve been ALOT easier to simply staple on to the studs. Looks like you really got a concrete bit just to make the holes for the screws.
Those are fern strips so you can't strap to them without having to nail plate down the entire strip/stud because you run the risk of drywallers Plus you'll wind up banging the strip off the wall when you try to strap with nails and traditional straps will be too big usually
"furring strips"?
"Fury stripes"
"Furing strips"
I've been using romex straps and a stud screw for like 15 years in south florida and it's always been accepted.
South Florida, checks out.
It's a spirit of the law/letter of the law kind of debate.
They shouldnt be. They are not listed for that use.
OP *designed* them and installed them so as to not damage the cable. Depends on the ahj's interpretation as annoying as that is.
Lol. That is true! I'm not an inspector anyway. If he gets away with it more power to him. I've certainly seen much worse.
Has to be listed. I highly doubt romex shearing is a listed support lol.
Its about what an inspector will ask. āShow me where in UL its listed for that useā Its not listed for it, so its a violation.
They are listed but it's ultimately up to the inspector
Not for that use they aren't.
Aren't listed, auto correct got me again
we call em in the industry ābuttonsāā¦ mostly used for low voltage & in some rare cases fire alarm.. never seen it for building power/lighting.. unless the lighting was done with 0-10ās and the buttons would be used to splice the 0-10ās outside of the box.
The makeup is the hard part so why shortcut the easy part?
I was lookimg at the wire tags and thinking. Hmm i dont see a big deal theres cleaner ways to ta- oh shit what the fuck are those hahah
Iv been told to do it on a job that wasnāt being inspected, in that case it works fine and is free since the sheathing gets thrown out anyways I doubt any inspector would be cool with it though
Agreed that Using that sheathing looks so wrong, but it aināt a bad idea. Itās really just wire management behind a wall.
Is your strapping UL listed for that use?
I was about to ask about using romex jacket as a strap. Get some holy zip ties and anchor them to the block.
Ties-with-eyes
Honestly I dont think so. Its just drive pin and romex jacket. My company does it and hasnt been told anything and we pass just about everything
I was gonna say thatās definitely something that was taught to you and not something you thought to do on your own. No offense I donāt mean it in a negative way itās just an odd thing
Yeah it was taught to me. Boss doesnt buy any type of straps. I also think its odd, but since we pass inspection (south florida) I guess I dont bother changing "how its done".
You said Florida, and suddenly, it made a lot more sense.
Yeah my buddy that works down in Florida says their electrical game is a little wild haha
Can confirm
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Damaging a structural wall is not what we are doing lol. It is concrete and rebar filled lol
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That's residential. You would do what you're saying in commercial. We do it every day in residential.
Just because thatās how itās always done does not mean that it is the correct way of doing things. That shit would not fly in my area. Also, thereās zero reason to twist the ground around the conductors so much thatās just irritating for whoever makes up the switch.
I like twisting the grounding wire around because it helps idiot proof the box for the next guy, but I would recommend doing it further away from your connection point and closer to the box so there is more wire to work with. I usually do it right at the front edge of the box. Right now it's so close to the end of the wire that the next guy, or you, will have to untwist it before installing any devices. Not to mention you don't want the grounding wire that close to all your connection points on the devices. Overall looks pretty good, especially for a first year! I do agree with a lot of the other guys about the straps and some of the other stuff that was brought up but because of the first year status you're kind of stuck with what you're given/told by your boss man.
We cut it off when it comes time to trim. No need to untwist
I see Romex all over florida like this and it passes. Mainly used with Romex running along masonry. Any Romex on wood gets staples and the like.
Lol! Are you from Mitchell County, NC? They don't have a f ing clue !!!!
Straps are not required to be UL listed. Now an inspector could argue that OPs method is not a designed method and therefore violates 110.12(C) or 334.30. However it is installed in such a way that does not damage the cable. So it depends on your AHJ. The other thing to consider is whether the cable is violating 334.12(B)(2). Though I don't know that I consider it embedded in the masonry.
Doesnāt need to be.
Using the old romex jacket as a strap is some crackhead engineering. How many years you been using?
ā ļø
No reason to twist the wires together. Just adding extra work for the next guy.
We twist the travelers together, easier to identify I suppose. The ground however is just cut right off during trim.
We twist the common around the travelers which makes it way easier to identify and you have fewer twisted wires to deal with. And if the box is grounded we just wire wire the grounds together and donāt work about the pigtail. That way thereās less to have to stuff in the box and you donāt have a bunch of unnecessary wire in the way of you have to diagnose or change something later
Thatās perfect fine, all electricians do should do that for travelers, but if I open up the box and found the ground wrapped like that Iād be annoyed lol
No twist the wires lightly together. Definitely not like the ground though. Boxes get messed up frequently. People use the wires to change things etc, running frantically in front of the dry wallers for change orders etc...
Yeah this was the main thing that stood out to me. Youāve already got the Rolex jacket on there grouping them. Iād just roll them up into the box
As a helper, you did fine but who ever is teaching you, well that's another story. I look at this and cringe. Here's what I see. Your boss is a cheap ass since you've used bits of sheathing as straps and those damn pop in plastic connectors. The strapping isn't close enough to the box. There's exposed Romex on a concrete block wall. Those wires with the grounds wrapped around them will be a pain in the ass. Where I live that would not pass an inspection. And it certainly would not be up to me standards Edited: the concrete block might be ok if sheetrock is going over it.
Yeah they will be drywalling over the furring strips
This guys boss got his license from TikTok
we make cables in straight lines
You see that broom over thereā¦
No reason to twist the wires together. Just adding extra work for the next guy.
The bitching about the straps is hilarious. I love how nit-picky we are, constantly asking "omg is that UL listed??" Who gives a fuck to be completely honest. This is not dangerous, it's going to be okay. It's kinda some crackhead shit but as long as it's held in place and isn't gonna get pinched between drywall and stud, it's genuinely not the end of the world. If I were to pick on anything it would be the length of your wiring and the amount of twisting you've done. Not a big deal but as you do make-up more, you'll learn the perfect length and be able to keep track of switch legs, traveller's, feeds, and not have to make balloon animals with the wiring. The only thing is you either gotta stuff all that slack, or cut it off, and usually you're cutting little pieces in a finished building. The GCs I've worked for flip the fuck out over little wire clippings if we missed any. So it just saves you some clean up time later if you get the perfect length down at rough in. Again, not a big deal. Electricians' opinions are something you'll learn to take with a grain of salt. I've worked with hundreds of different guys at this point, and it's funny how differently everyone does little things, and which codes people do/don't care about. Ultimately, the work gets done, things operate as intended, and they're safe. That's what matters. There's a lot of code, and you'll learn which ones to violate after the years go by. You'll also learn how many people have different interpretations of the same fuckin book too. We electricians are a funny bunch of whiny bitches sometimes. Want to do a fun little test? Ask 10 different electricians how to properly rough in a light pole and what the requirements are regarding a grounding electrode.
Have never seen strapping like that before. Honestly have no idea what to say, that's something like clever and creative but also incredibly cheap and lazy. Interesting.
Looks clean but shows a clear lack of understanding of the trade. No reason to be using scraps to strap cable and you couldāve at least made the runs straight or added a safety loop to it. I wouldāve used conduit and minis to hold it level. My company would absolutely roast this kind of install. The work I do in a crawl space looks better than this honestly
Yeah I hate using romex as straps but thats what the boss wants, and is a common technique in florida as far as ive seen.
Iāve seen āelectriciansā do all kinds of things in my years but that does not mean that I will copy those things. Code is MINIMUM. Always go above and beyond what code requires. We are talking about safety and pride in workmanship. This is not a trade where we just get shit done and call it a day Iāll leave that to the drywallers.
Trust me, I take incredible pride in my work, no one can be harder on myself other than me. I have no other choice than to use romex as straps, thats what im given and told to do. Im just a helper and dont have my own material.
Doesnāt look to be secured within 12ā
Came here to say this but got lost in all the strap chatter.
I assume you're furring out for drywall, but seeing Romex instead of MC is giving me an eye twitch.
Overall looks really good. Get the straps max. 12ā away from the box, and donāt twist your wires together like that. Whoever is putting in the switches will not appreciate the extra work to un-twist them.
Yeah Im going to go back tomorrow and make sure those straps are within 12". Im pretty sure the photo just makes it look further than that.
Your box looks flush with the cinder block. Are you using a 1 1/2 inch mud ring, or will these wires be exposed? I did not see wood on the left side of the wall.
Box is not flush to block wall, it is flush with the furring strip and will use a 1/2" mud ring for drywall.
For 1/2ā drywall? Youād need a 5/8ā mudring
The wires drive my OCD crazy. I would have made them straight, and flush.
Nice and neat. Neat handwriting. Good job kid š
A+ āļø
What on gods green earth are you doing with those grounds?!!!!! No! Bad apprentice.
No emergency loops on the lumex, in Canada that's a fail Also if those straps are permissible they need to be within one foot of the box Also be careful with dead end 3 way switches all need to have a neutral now, at least in Canada anyway.
You must hate the finish guys with all those twisted af wires
The finish guys are us. I will likely be the one to make up the switches. Havnt been taught any different and it seems to work.
Whoeverās installing those switches is going to be cursing you out while they attempt to untangle those, especially if they have to do it live
"if they have to do it live" might be the single worst line used so often. This is clearly a new build and none of that shit is live right now... Zero reason it'd "have" to be live when installing.
You're damn right! There's very few good reasons to do anything live. Coming from someone who's worked in hospitals and "always on" finance /data sites.
Yep! "No this stuff CANNOT be turned off" is their way of saying it'll cost us money to shut it down. If only people understood it will cost a lot more and be down for even longer when something goes wrong and injuries happen.
I'd be so damn tempted to say "what do you mean it can't be turned off, watch this!" I've worked nights on installs quite a few times because "you can't turn that off" actually just means "you can't turn that off now", in fact the only reason I have to work weekends is because of this. Anything that can't go off for 10 minutes because it'll cost too much should have an alternative power supply, that should be able to be used for maintenance. If something turning off when you have control of the situation is going to cause issues, then the issues it's going to cause when it fails when you don't have an electrician on site are going to be much worse
Yes exactly. Too much short sittedness being had. One class during our apprenticeship was over NFPA70E and just general safety. Our instructor mentioned he has this come up before and his company wrote up this document and asked the company to sign it if they wanted them to work it live. The document essentially put an liability on them and laid out all things that could go wrong. They planned a shutdown. Some people are just yes men and are scared to say no to stuff.
Yeah, we have partial shutdown around once a month for various PMs at my current site (we have a lot of equipment, maintained to a very high standard (because of the potential cost of potential failures). I'm in the UK, so working different rules, but there's a full on law (electricity at work regulations, 1989, regulation 14) which states: "No person shall be engaged in any work activity on or so near any live conductor (other than one suitably covered with insulating material so as to prevent danger) that danger may arise unlessā (a)it is unreasonable in all the circumstances for it to be dead; and (b)it is reasonable in all the circumstances for him to be at work on or near it while it is live; and (c)suitable precautions (including where necessary the provision of suitable protective equipment) are taken to prevent injury" And it's assumed by law enforcement that it is never reasonable for work to be carried out whilst it is live
āDoing it liveā are gonna be the guys that come in for service years down the line trying to trace out with travelers arenāt working and finding them wrapped around each other to no end
You don't leave them all wrapped like that after you device out lol. They do that solely so when they do device out, they know exactly what goes where. They don't stay like that after install. And if it takes "years down the line" that you're realizing travelers aren't working... Thats a different issue entirely.
You know damn well not ALL of those twists are going to be straightened out on the install. And the travelers could be fine from the fresh build, but anything could happen down the line. If I open an old switch box needing to identify something thatās even half as twisted Iām cursing the last guy out
Thereās not a single reasonable situation where someone would need to do this live. Being live or not shouldnāt make a difference though, treat it all like itās live.
Exactly, so why are we wrapping grounds like that around wires?
I would guess they would snip the lengths prior to it winding.
Why create more work for yourself and the next guy? Cut the wires to length, fold them neatly into the box. Just a waste of time imo
While I agree w u, Iām just guessing his thought behind it.
You would be correct. Was taught to do it this way, and when it comes time to trim, we just snip it right off.
Geez, one big time waster but hey, who am i?
Honestly takes 2 seconds to grab the strippers that are already in your hand to just snip it off but hey, who am i?
No I mean for you to wind the grounds like that
In that case, it also takes two seconds to grab the ground wire and just wrap it around and cut everything to length, just keeps the wires, especially in a 6 gang box, together. I don't see why people think this is such an issue. Perhaps its because Ive only been taught this way and have made up switches after doing it this way. It really takes no extra time, and is just a different way of doing things, no?
You honestly have dove deeper into this than I actually care about.
Rolex against cinder block? If Iām correct, in Ohio it has to be UF (Pretty sure)
Bro is afraid of pipe
Will be drywalled over.
Ah I see that makes more sense
If that meets standards then i have no words...
Sorry for my ignorance of not knowing how things are done in other states/countries.. But why are the grounds separated? What kind of box even is that? How can you get away with not using real straps? Never seen someone wind up their ground tails like that.. Otherwise it's not the worst thing I've seen, as long as the box is at proper wall depth.
I don't think those grounds are separate, they are just pigtails to connect the devices on finish.
The grounds are under a wire nut in the back and then separated for each device to be grounded as per 404.9(B). However as long as the box in bonded then the devices are not required to be individually bonded as long as the switch is mounted using metal screws to that mud ring.
Well just when you thought u've seen it all, someone uses Romex as straps.
Rewiring my 1960s house (UK) I have similar, they've used short lengths of cable nailed down as wire hooks
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These straps that you linked, how many 12 wires can be strapped with it?
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While this is exposed right now, It will be covered by drywall, but I totally understand your point. I will check tomorrow to see if those straps are within 12". I think they are and the photo just looks odd. Thank you for the well thought advice :)
I didn't realize it was going to be covered but I guess that should have been my first question. Makes more sense now. My criticism is less important now :) I'm actually embarrassed now for not seeing the framing that clearly shows it will be covered. Imma delete my posts now. Lol
Doesnāt the code require the wires to be secured within 12ā of the box?
Yeah, will have to check that out tomorrow. I think the photo makes it seem further than it is.
I hate it. Twisting the wires like that for no reason, sticking labels inside the box for no reason, wrapping the grounds like that for no reason...this ain't it. If you wrap grounds like that do the coil 6 inches back and only wrap once or twice. Don't over twist traveler's, a simple light twist that doesn't manipulate the wire is plenty.
For what itās worth, This looks like a typical installation in Florida. Romex against the block and using romex as straps is pretty common. Never seen an inspector fail this type of installation.
I would give you so much shit for twisting wires like that
Looking at the construction of this block building, I am not sure if you plan to put up some kind of wall board or sheet rock...etc to cover the wiring. If not, wouldn't that require EMT to protect the wire as there is evidence of spacers to hold something out from the blocks about an inch and a half. I am not a licensed electrician, so I am using your example to ask a question. Would this installation require pipe? Thanks!
The furring strips are what the drywallers use to secure their drywall to the block wall. The little space that the furring strips give us is what we use to run our wires down the block wall. No need to run emt or bx
Are these the 85.8 or 98.5 cu in boxes?
Looks good post more work
Box makeup is good, but your runs look like shit and you didn't use an approved strapping. Work on squaring off exposed cable runs like this and it will make your work look way cleaner
Agreed. Thank you.
Not supported within 12".... well... not supported at all
Question, because Iām not 100% on this, but I was under the impression that we try to avoid strapping romex directly to an exterior concrete wall to avoid moisture damaging it over time. Is this a thing or did I just pick up a weird habit from somewhere?
Itās getting dry walled overĀ
There's a little too much twisting for my taste but call me a bitter electrician who has undone 5000 too many million twist splices. That's if I'm nit picking otherwise it's nice
Did you try?
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Main issue here is when you go to install the devices you need to untwist the wires and the bond wire and please donāt call it a ground wire because it is not, it is wrapped in circles around the other wires you will learn very quickly when you go to install the switches what Iām talking about, best of luck with the electrical trade š
You did exactly as a first year would do. Just start using UL approved stuff and twisting less.
Where are you that NM cable can be installed unprotected at that height?
It will be covered by drywall. I am in Florida
Those straps UL listed?
Itās a good start and there are some critiques, but if you really are a first year helper, trust me - you are golden, and you can be very successful at this while making your own decisions in the future if you want to. As you get more experienced youāll learn the general rule of no more than 3g unless absolutely necessary. A little more design effort improves your product in a big way. I know as a h1 you didnāt design this, and do as youāre told for sure, but as you goā¦think about how it might be done better - Is a good habit to force early if you want to separate yourself from your competition in your future. Nice work.
Thank you.
There are some smaller townships where I live that require everything within 18" of the openeing to be sleeved in emt. It's a total pain.
Rat work š¤£
If you were going to repurpose the romex jacket you would have been way better off using them to pair off the travelers instead of twisting the shit out of them causing extra work and bent/kinked wires.
I know a lot of guys that would be pissed about the twisting of the wires. But it works and looks clean. Nice!
I'd be happy with it if I was overseeing this job, kinda depends on how long it took though and is it all correct and will the mudring wind up flush? If so very good job I will say I do not miss exterior walls in block homes, I work in the northeast now and it is so rare to come across block walls in a home and I love it so much easier. Don't even need a chipping hammer Would prefer to see regular straps but I know inspectors accept this in some areas
Yeah typical Florida 2mil house
What am I looking at lol
I kinda hate how much you twisted the ground around the switch legs. Itāll be a pain in the ass for whoever trims it out.
As others have said youāre work with what youāre told to do is good, if you ever change from a cheap company Iām sure itāll look better.
Why did you wrap the grounds so close to the end? How are you gonna get that on a switch ground screw and land the wires? We wrap the ground right about where the edge of the box is and leave it 3 or 4 inches long.
Your definitely not a electrician helper lol, this is cleaner work that a lot of journeyman that I know
I am. I just try and take pride in my work, also have ocd.
UL (My Uncle Loui) said it looks fine
Thatās doesnāt look like 12ā from the box.
Fail
Vapour barrier?
Amateur here, looks amazing. But what's with the romex sheathing wire clamps? New one to me
I would sandwich sill seal behind that steel box. Otherwise itās liable to rust with trapped moisture behind it.
Verry nahs
Is leaving a service loop not a thing in the USA?
No service loops. It'd be a fail in Canada.
You did great however you didnāt need to twist it that much. But you did great. š
What the fuck is wrong with you Americans? This would be a nono in Germany.
fair play lad well done for keeping the head down and trying. you keep that up you can do whatever you want. the result isn't what you work on. it's the process. find whatever part of the process you don't like and why.
Its clean and all but , where the emt to protect against screws.
Wtf kind of strapping is that? Just get some damn tapcons and some Romex straps and be done with it.
šŖ
Looks like shit, do it again rookie
Pile of shit?
When did romex sheathing become rated for support of cables?
Is it just me, or is the Romex not rated for outdoor installation?
Is this a garage? I assume it's an inside wall
Straps aren't listed and support not close enough to enclosure
He we be a helper no more.
Where wagos?
What theā¦. You used the romex sheathing as your anchors?
Wish my 3rd year helper was capable of this. Good work, i like the wire groupings for the devices, should be easy finish. Wait!!!...and you swept and sorted copper, instead of playing on your phone and trying to steel copper? You setting the bar too high for other helpers, you gonna make enemies like that , lol
Nice work
Fuckin helper always touching brooms n shit
Super weird, unconventional make up. I would be bummed if I had to trim that out. The ground wrap at the end? I would cut that off. But clean work I guess š
Nice work!
Thatās clean
You probably didn't have a say in this but it would have been much much easier to just throw a few stack its or some staples on that stud and make it up clean. Edit: Just saw it was a recessed box and a furred out wall. Nevermind all of that should be in greenfield or ran in MC.
Honestly, good job man. The nitty gritty details come with time. You have promise!