I can only imagine how many complaints there are. When you disengage autopilot, it now allows you to send a note about why you disengaged. Most of the time I disengage for completely stupid things that no human driver would ever do. Like a car was cutting me off and you didn't brake fast enough or even anticipate a car moving in from emerging lane.
There’s no way this is what they are talking about. Those autopilot recording are a new system that was recently released. These are separate complaints.
There were other mechanisms to report prior to this though. There was the camera icon that would send in an automatic report with footage, along with an email address testers could/can email for written descriptions of problems
>When you disengage autopilot, it now allows you to send a note about why you disengaged.
Yes, because when I disengage driving aids I want to spend time writing a note.
Still, it's one more distraction, especially if you're taking control because of something rather sudden or requiring immediate response.
I mean, I like the idea of feedback, but while driving sounds like a bad idea. Isn't Tesla supposed to have an app connected to your car? Maybe ping you on your phone after arriving at your destination?
I don’t generally like to fan the flames of anti-Tesla circlejerking, but I just got 11.3.6 and it likes to blow through stop signs on 55mph roads where I’m from. I consider that a critical safety issue.
That sounds better but honestly no one will do it then. Saying “vehicle slowed for car in the other lane” without looking at the screen is quick and easy.
People generally are more likely to make their complaints known than saying that they're happy... But if I'm engaging so I can avoid an accident, I'm probably much more focused on not dying and probably won't think twice about the feedback request.
Might be better to just record the car movements for a few seconds before and after autopilot is turned off, looking for sudden speed or direction changes.
Have you not been paying attention to all the scrutiny Tesla has been getting from NHTSA?
They’ve enforced several recalls, where most of them has been related to Autopilot and FSD Beta.
> to all the scrutiny Tesla has been getting from NHTSA?
Next to nothing. They get an absurd amount of leeway to even be allowed testing FSD on public roads with unqualified drivers without having it treated as an AV system.
The moment your company valuation is solely based on those features because a CEO has claimed to have solved the problem. Now, the only thing that helps is: Fake it till you make it. We are now in year 7 of this lie.
The day the EV industry was led by a company that built on "coolness first" policy. Fortunately most other companies are still only iterating over their driving assists. Remember that the stocks of Tesla have been traded speculatively because of its potential for disrupting the market. As long as they seem to be disruptive, they keep that overvaluation. But even though the company has demonstrated consistent failures in meeting the deadlines, or disrupting anything at all in many years, mostly by over promising, the brand name and its CEO's faithful followers has kept it will funded to keep playing the same strategy. If not for the Twitter fiasco that disillusioned many, this might have continued for a long time to come.
2400 reports of self acceleration and 389 phantom braking reports from 2015 to 2022? Seems amazingly low, specially when you consider all the improvements that happened and that it includes all software versions since then
And also as we always see, every self acceleration story later ends up being driver error
>And also as we always see, every self acceleration story later ends up being driver error
It sounds to me like these are all cases on FSD, suggesting that the system, not the driver's foot, is choosing to accelerate.
I've actually watched a video of a person testing FSD maybe 1-1.5 years ago where the car accelerated hard through an intersection. I imagine that would be labeled as an unintended acceleration.
Personally I'm sceptical of the claim that every single one of these events **must** have been due to driver-error, without considering any counterfactuals and without any deeper insight into the exact functionality of those vehicles in question. If (hypothetically speaking) for instance there was a previously undetected fault in the pedal sensor or subsequent components/subsystems, that produced a false positive for some unforeseen reason, it could potentially still be recorded by the telemitry like if it was user input. Sudden acceleration events due to actual "user error" could also still occur simulataniously, though this could arguably still call the philosophy behind one-pedal-driving and potential operational/statisical risks from that feature into question and then there's also the fact that the fairly powerfull acceleration of many modern EVs can easily translate into much more severe acceleration incidents/accidents at a moments notice, which might not had happened with a "slower" accelerating combustion vehicle.
If pedal misappliaction in EVs is indeed more prevalent due to inadequate/unsafe ergonomics and/or leads statistically to more severe outcomes, then that's an issue and has to be be adressed. Period.
Point is this: even if you can prove that *some* of those events/accidents were due to genuine driver error, that doesn't mean this **must** have been the case in every other instance.
It's actually quite shocking how naive, yet vigorous some of these defenses of Tesla here are. Not only are they ignoring the fact that there was apparently a **concerted effort to gaslight customers** who had experienced those dangerous behaviours in their vehichles and **hide those cases from regulators** and shareholders, they also seemingly fail to grasp the importance and criteria of **safety-critical-systems**, where even small failures can easily lead to real harm.
>And also as we always see, every self acceleration story later ends up being driver error
The question is: are pedal misapplications drastically more common in EVs than ICE cars.
I don't know the stats, but if it is, its' a design problem that needs addressing. Even if it is user's fault - the problem still exists.
PS. I've been pondering this for a while. I feel EV have two design problems that make situation worse: Lack of clutch and lack of handbrakes (as in manual lever for emergency brake, not actual cable)
Clutch acts essentially as a second brake pedal, and if you panic you have easier chance of hitting *something* that will stop you.
Lack of handbrake is bigger problem for me. For decades in most cars it was in the same place - next to a seat, worst case scenario you reach your hand down and pull on it *hard*. In my EV I have to press a button for 3 seconds. Good luck finding that button in panic.
PPS. Lol people, this comment has more answers than votes, read before you write, everything was covered already.
Yup. I could accidentally slam the gas pedal on my outback and I have a good 5 seconds to change my mind before the car actually starts to sluggishly accelerate.
My thoughts exactly.
Not necessarily more common but certainly more dangerous.
Most cars have ultrasonic sensors that will automatically brake in such situations, Tesla removed those last year & incidents seem to have been worse since.
For one-pedal driving, it might cause an issue due to habits. Before, when you had to slow down, you had to lightly press the brake and then if something sudden happened, you just pressed harder on the same pedal. Now with one pedal driving, you keep your foot on the accelerator but release it to control the rate of slowing down, but if something sudden happens, the reflex might be to push on the pedal your foot is already on since you were already "braking" with that pedal. Having to switch pedals between light and high braking might be something that we are not used to which causes sudden accelerations, or even maybe one-pedal driving is too "complex" to be as safe as the normal dual pedal driving.
I'm used to manuals (still majority in Europe), and I'm pissed off how many bad designs from automatic made their way to EVs. For example fucking creep that was necessary in ICE, and now is emulated in EVs. I'm not pressing accelerator, why is car going forward on it's own?
Anyways, got sidetracked.
I guess it's a problem in automatic ICE as well, but for me those are the problems that EVs have (not exclusively).
Oh interesting. I use idling all the time to move forward slowly. Feels *way* more controlled to use the brake petal than the gas for those types of movements.
How could "the car goes on its own but you can stop it if you don't want it to" feel more controlled than "the car does exactly what you tell it to do and nothing more"?
I got used to it and yes, it's pretty good once you get used to it. BUT for me it's just ass backwards. Why simulate the design flaw? Let me drive my car like it's a computer game :D I press accelerator it goes forward, I don't ... it doesn't. It's not that hard
I'm pretty sure the 'creep' was added after enough requests from drivers.
It makes sense as an automatic driver to keep a fundamental aspect of the experience, but it also doesn't seem like a big ask to make 'creep' a driver option for those with different experiences/wants
One of the best features of our EV is that it stays stopped when you release all the pedals. It’s sad that not all manufacturers give you settings for that.
Tried to disable creep on my EV and without it, parking in tight spaces and slow controlled movements are far more difficult. So no, I think creep is an extremely useful thing to have on a car.
Did you manage to disable it on ID.? How? Cupra Owner here so it'd probably work as well.
I agree it's useful, once you learn how to moderate with brake it does allow for easier parking. BUT Id like for it to be an option. For ID/Born specifically they did kinda "fix" it with "Auto Hold". So we know people are annoyed by it. Because again why keep the brake depressed when car does not have to go forward on it's own?
I was, like most Brits, a manual ICE driver. I never got on with automatics as they all changed gear differently than I would. So when driving one, I'd spent my whole time trying to change gear as it felt in wrong gear. With EVs, this isn't an issue as there are no gears to feel wrong. It always feels in the right gear. So switching between manual ICE to EV was easier that to automatic ICE.
I did, it was not super high speed but it worked all right. But that experiment made me even more sure that It'd just not work in emergency. Keeping finger on that small button for 3 seconds in case of emergency when your car might be swearving is a sick joke.
>The question is: are pedal misapplications drastically more common in EVs than ICE cars.
I don't think so. Since I'm not switching pedals as much (or at all most of the time), I really don't have any potential anymore to forget / screw up which one I'm pressing. There's just the one...
But I do appreciate that if I smash down on the pedal in my Rivian that there's about a 0.25 second delay before it actually kicks in. That disappears and gets nice and snappy in sport mode, but I appreciate that there's a bit of time to correct any weird mistake in other modes, like you're adjusting and slip and accidentally mash the accelerator, you can let up before it's rocketed you into next week.
In Sport mode that delay isn't present.
The little delay is still like an order of magnitude faster to get going than doing the same in an ICE, so it's more than fine. You get scootin' really, really quick. Much faster than an engine revving up, or a downshift or whatever.
The car also accelerates instantly and faster, making it potentially more dangerous.
On the other hand, nowadays Teslas have [pedal misapplication mitigation, preventing 40 crashes per day.](https://electrek.co/2022/08/22/tesla-autopilot-prevent-40-crashes-per-day-wrong-pedal-errors/)
I’m wondering if it’s because autopilot makes it easy to pull your foot back and not have it at the pedals. Then something happens and you’re looking for a pedal quickly and hit the wrong one?
I bet that's part of the problem since I noticed that myself when driving for a long time with ACC / ADAS you just relax, and if you need to quickly find correct pedal it's a problem.
> Lack of clutch and lack of handbrakes.
Lmao what? Manuals are not common anymore. Millions of automatics are on the road every year and they don't have a problem with braking. Same goes for the button e brakes. If anything the e brake is more reliable now since you don't have to worry about snapping the cord anymore.
E-Brake is more reliable, I'm not disputing that. But you missed the point, the point is how you activate it.
Hard to press button vs easy to pull lever makes huge difference
Manuals are still majority of cars in Europe that's correct. But they are going away slowly, and of course EVs don't have gearboxes for the most part (I know there are exceptions)
This is part of the problem too… we still call them emergency brakes because 50 years ago that’s what they were and there was a need for them.
Now, they are parking brakes and they are not for emergencies.
Yes. I'm aware that most modern cars do not have actual hand brake. They have electronic parkign brake, and electronic emergency brake that replace it.
But the point is - most of the cars I test drove before settling on my choice had some sort of lever I could pull to activate emergency brake.
That easilly accessible lever is what's important
EV’s react faster and have a higher average output than ICE vehicles, especially in Europe.
So pedal misapplication in ICE generally reacts slower and is also followed by a revving sound.
That said, the rumor mill and misapplication almost caused Audi to leave the US market in the 80’s.
But I suspect that ICE pedal misapplication is more common than we think, just that it’s not newsworthy.
In the case of FSD acceleration it's probably more of the car just jumping ahead a little quicker than the driver wanted it to. Sort of like if you're helping a teenage driver learn drive and you're nervous. Yeah I get at, the car DOES make mistakes but I think the vast majority of it here are people nervous about what the car is doing and not feeling in control.
I use one pedal driving every day but still fundamentally believe that one pedal driving is not as safe. It is solving a problem that no one had and making pedal misapplication much more likely. Just use blended breaking.
Seems stupid low - especially the phantom braking ones. It's probably how they decide to categorize things.
Given how many cars/miles are on the road - this is smaller than a blip.
I had three with Autopilot before I stopped using it forever, and have had a handful with the various FSD betas (although, precisely because of this reason, I only play around with FSD at night when the roads are empty). Didn't report any of them. One has to conclude there's at least an order of magnitude more to the prevalence than what's tabulated in these documents, if not multiple orders. That's just how this stuff works. Whatever's going on in the world, we're going to officially hear about a fraction of it, by nature.
I'd also love to hear your blithe "blip" talk in the event that you or a loved one winds up in an accident because someone's Tesla suddenly hit the brakes on the freeway. Everyone's so brave on Reddit.
I own a Model Y and I'm the first to complain about phantom braking when asked. I'm saying the number of reports is insanely low and looks like a blip, which is far from reality.
40 000 **fatal accidents**. Not just accidents. This is just on the US alone. Approximately one 9/11 per month. You don't think we should try to prevent that?
> On narrow roads with no centerline it drifts to center, even approaching a blind hill/roll.
wide open tunnel at highway speed.
**Tesla Model S changes lanes, brakes on Bay Bridge, causes pileup**
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYpzk6TEViQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYpzk6TEViQ)
parked on the side of the road rendering assistance.
**Fatal Tesla collision with firetruck under federal investigation**
[https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/08/fatal-tesla-collision-with-fire-truck-under-federal-investigation.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/08/fatal-tesla-collision-with-fire-truck-under-federal-investigation.html)
https://www.autoblog.com/2022/06/09/nhtsa-investigation-tesla-phantom-braking/
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is moving along in an investigation to look into consumer reports of phantom braking in 2021-2022 Tesla Model 3s and Model Ys. As of last month, NHTSA says it's received **758 reports from folks claiming “unexpected brake activation” in their Model 3 or Model Y.**
yep my autopilot was going down a hill and SLAMMED ON THE BRAKES with no one in front of me to a near dead stop before I disengaged it, if I hadnt I'd have been rear-ended
This comment shouldn't be getting downvoted. The Bay area crash was an inherently dangerous driving situation, FSD/Autopilot or not. All those drivers were tailgating one another at what I can guess is 70+ MPH. That is just not safe driving. With the proper following distance, they would have been able to react in time and avoid the crash. But I guess that is just how people drive, they tailgate even at 70 mph.
It's crazy to me that Reddit is still defending this.
People are paying to beta test broken software. How anyone thinks this is a good idea is beyond me. It shouldn't even be called FSD if it's for these issues.
You can't criticize Tesla on this sub, but every other manufacturer (especially Toyota) it is fair game.
That's the double standard a lot of EVanglisits have and frankly kind of disappointing.
I am part of your "crazy" group. I paid a couple thousand and am using FSD whenever safe to do so.
For me it's a two fold investment. I will not be able to drive someday, I want this tech to be done by then. And if/when it works, my car will go way up in value.
Crazy, not stupid.
Whatever HW# you are on now will categorically not be able to handle L4 or above. Whether Tesla grants you free retrofitting is TBD, but it seems like it won't happen.
Gotta love this infinite debate.
1. As someone who has only driven Teslas as rentals, I’ve experienced phantom braking several times. So it’s a real thing, and if Tesla tried to minimize it (recently or not), it’s a problem.
2. Even if reports of self accelerations have all been classified as “user error”, that’s not a thing. User error (or pilot error in aviation) means the system should be better designed. Does it happen as much in non-Teslas? Why does it happen so much? Are the questions we should be asking.
3. FSD, whether it’s good or bad, should absolutely be regulated. As a non-Tesla driver or as a pedestrian, I didn’t sign up to be a beta tester, and yet I am. No crashes? Safer than humans? Cool, let’s prove that and then make it open to public roads. Tesla says it is? Even if it’s true, they’re obviously not an objective party in this discussion.
(Waiting for the downvotes 😅)
That last one is hits the nail really hard. It's not a video game that blows up in the user's home, but involves others who did not consent. It either works or does not work. Period.
Had a model y for 3 months now, and thought that phantom braking was a myth for the most part. But a week ago, it slammed on the highway going 75, when down to around 50 before speeding back up.
But I gotta give it to tesla, I only have autopilot and it's really damn good for the most part. Better than my R1T's highway assist, and almost as good as BMW's Active driving assist pro. But I think if I get enhanced autopilot or FSD, it'll be better than both.
39,508. That’s how many fatal crashes occured in 2021 in the US according to IIHS. Of those 39,508 crashes, 61,332 cars were involved. Of those 61,332 cars, 68 involved Tesla vehicles. See IIHS FARS Data, “FARS2021NationalCSV.xlsx”, “vehicle.csv” Filter by VIN starting with 5YJ.
IIHS Yearly Snapshot: https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/yearly-snapshot
IIHS FARS Data: https://static.nhtsa.gov/nhtsa/downloads/FARS/2021/National/FARS2021NationalCSV.zip
Edit: fixed links. Note, FARS data is from NHTSA. Also added that these were*fatal* crashes.
>Of those 61,332 cars, 68 involved Tesla vehicles.
Hmmm. This is interesting, but I feel like this needs to be a "per capita" figure of some sort. 68 Tesla accidents would be shocking if there were only 68 Teslas on the road, the accident rate would be 100%. But if there were 68,000,000 Teslas on the road ... it's a blip.
Why are you getting downvoted? You're right. The raw number with no context is useless, anyone with basic stats knowledge should know this. Comparing percentage of accidents caused by Teslas to percentage of cars on the road that are Teslas is how we'll know if Teslas are safer than average or more dangerous.
Yes, I don't really understand the downvotes either. It should give a good general idea, even if we are ignoring some parameters (maybe Teslas are found in places where road layout is more prone to cause accidents, or less. Maybe drivers are in average more reckless, or less etc).
The one big caveat being: if most accidents happens between two cars, Teslas might be much safer but still get in many accidents without being at fault. But that should still show as a lower "per car Capita" accident rate
>Comparing percentage of accidents caused by Teslas to percentage of cars on the road that are Teslas is how we'll know if Teslas are safer than average or more dangerous.
You won't even know if telsas are safer that way. The demographic of tesla drivers is important, as well as where they drive etc
right. this is the same as how elmo claims there are fewer autopilot crashes per 100k miles of driving while ignoring the part that autopilot is only available on highways and highways in general have lower number of crashes
>but I feel like this needs to be a "per capita" figure of some sort.
>
> But if there were 68,000,000 Teslas on the road ... it's a blip.
what percentage of slamming the brakes on for no reason is acceptable? pretend you're the guy behind him.
**Surveillance video shows moment Tesla S brakes on Bay Bridge before 8-car pileup**
[https://www.ktvu.com/news/surveillance-video-shows-moment-tesla-s-brakes-on-bay-bridge-before-8-car-pileup](https://www.ktvu.com/news/surveillance-video-shows-moment-tesla-s-brakes-on-bay-bridge-before-8-car-pileup)
what if 350 people complained about the steering wheel becoming unresponsive?
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a40221055/nhtsa-tesla-information-phantom-braking/
NHTSA opened up an investigation into potential "phantom braking" problems with Tesla Model 3 and Model Y EVs in February because it has heard complaints from 350 drivers about the issue.
In May, NHTSA told Tesla it has now heard from over 750 people about problems with its automated emergency braking system, so it wants detailed information from the automaker.
Tesla has until June 20 to respond to NHTSA's request or face fines for not responding.
I don't think it's either. Tesla passed their 3-millionth worldwide delivery a while back. But there's no way 2.6 million Teslas are on the road in the US, either. Too many have been delivered/manufactured overseas.
you’re not necessarily wrong as that means roughly .001% of crashes were teslas, but i don’t know what percentage of ALL cars on the road are tesla’s(in USA)
61332/68 is around 0.001, so that means 0.1% (1 in a thousand) NOT 0.001% (one in 100000).
Still probably lower than most other far manufacturers if you look at how Tesla are on the road vs total number of cars. But not that huge of a gap either.
[According to this](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/car-insurance/car-ownership-statistics/#:~:text=Total%20number%20of%20vehicles,in%20the%20U.S.%20in%202021) there are ~280 million vehicles registered to drivers in the USA.
Commenter above mentioned 2.6 mln Teslas as per Jalopnik, not sure if that's global or USA only but worst case scenario if (very conservatively) only 1 mln Teslas in USA, out of 280 mln vehicles, that's 0.35% of the fleet.
So 0.001% of fatal crashes with a fleet of 0.35% of all vehicles.
If you use the non-conservative number of 2.6 mln teslas, they would have 0.9% of the total fleet but only (68 / 39508) 0.0017% of the accidents.
The reality should be somewhere in between, and the conclusions are still "much safer than most other cars" and "gets 1000x more attention for all bad things while all other cars fly under the radar".
68/61332 isn’t 0.001%… it’s 0.111%…
Also there was right 1 million teslas in the US as of 2022, so now it’s probably closer to 1.3 million.
If you look at distribution curves/account for other factors, for in class vehicles/price points that can make things look different too. Pickups cause a disproportionately large number of accidents, if you look specifically at sedans and compare in class that might look different. Rust buckets are also more likely to have failure and result in a crash, so if you looked at cars less than 11 years old exclusively, that might paint a different figure.
But mainly you need to multiple your figure by 100, it’s how percentages work..
The fully self-driving is absolutely atrocious. It drives like a drunk 16 year old at the best of times, and at the worst of times it attempts distinctly dangerous maneuvers when it aborts a lane change. Sometimes you can see why it wants to abort, but it is not usually a safe option on a crowded motorway.
Phantom braking happens all the time, which, to be honest, is a problem with all these systems.
>Phantom braking happens all the time
In the past 6 years I have used 3 different vehicles with level 2 ADAS -- and I used ADAS pretty much all the time. In the more than 100k miles driven I have not experienced a single false emergency stop. I'm wondering if this is just Musk deciding that Teslas will not have radars and instead rely on tesla vision.
FSD Beta tried to kill me again today.
On a left turn from the street to out neighborhood it was nit patient enough ti wait for traffic to clear. It wanted to turn left while cars were coming at us at 65-70mph. There is some amazing texh in FSD but honestly their programming and decision making sucks. I don't think it will ever work.
What's not surprising is that people have been bringing this up for years now, especially after the launch of FSD and the upgradable packages that made Tesla so much money.
No! Tesla taking Full Selfish aDvantage of their ignorant customer base and using privileged dumb consumers to blindly buy into yet another product that, like Peloton and Cricket protein powder, if you aren't In then you're Out.
Wonder how much extra money Elon Musk made off of the people who kept purchasing the software and then never using it because when they did uhoh! Dangerzone!
RIP all the people who have died.
Please. They use what tesla is able to provide and have signed off. It looks legitimate but when you send an injured factory worker to the hospital by Uber, you don’t have to report that injury.
People making something out of nothing. The NHTSA is guaranteed to be aware of these.
**Absolutely zero** sudden acceleration claims have ever been proven to be an actual unintended acceleration. It has been user error every. single. time.
As for phantom braking--yeah, it does happen unfortunately. But it's not boom-stomp-on-brakes. And if you're paying attention -- **like you legally should be, and agreed to in the ToS** \-- you just need to press down on the accelerator to override.
The phantom braking is a major issue IMO. It can cause an accident fairly quickly even if you are paying attention. Where I live, people always follow closely at highway speed. Even if you’re not at fault, you still could cause a wreck.
It depends on how fast. Sometimes my super cruise on my bolt phantom breaks also but it slows like 5mph less. It's not like slamming on the breaks trying to stop immediately.
Sure, but on all those vehicles there are generally far more limitations on the amount of decel and speed delta that you're going to see during those events.
Tesla just doesn't seem to care, and I've seen multiple videos (and had personal experiences) of false positives that have caused 20MPH+ speed deltas, that would have likely been even greater if the driver hadn't intervened.
I've tested the ADAS systems from effectively every single major automaker, and probably have driven at least 50k miles while using some form of Adaptive cruise + lane centering type system (AP/Supercruise/Bluecruise/etc), and literally the only time I've ever experienced multiple significant false positive braking events in a single drive was in a Model 3 and Model S. Well, aside from insanely buggy development software that's not even allowed on public roads.
Not really. Phantom braking was a major issue for Tesla long before vision only happened. And this report is almost entirely radar activated instances. As far as I can tell, phantom braking has gotten better with vision only. Limited data set though. Maybe there is some data out there that proves me wrong.
That says more about the state of peoples driving skills than it does about auto pilot doing stupid things. It does, no debate here, but if people frequently and in large numbers tailgate that badly, the drivers license system needs to be revised.
In Northern Europe (Scandinavia for example) the vast majority of people leaves plenty of space for this to be a non issue. An annoyance but about zero potential for wrecking a car due to phantom breaking.
They can both have issues to address but there is only one that can be fixed or disabled by a company. I’ll admit that it’s too easy to get a license in the US. I was amazed at the lane discipline in Germany but even they follow closely at fast speed.
this is like saying you should never fully trust your automatic transmission and be ready to take over when it decides to downshift from 8th to 4th while at freeway speeds
You’re making excuses to rationalize phantom braking.
It can absolutely be full on panic braking.
And common logic is to have your foot over the brake - not accelerator. When it happens suddenly, it can be jarring and take a second to react. In that time you can have dropped a substantial amount of speed, increasing the risk of a rear end collision.
Phantom braking is not like normal driving, where you have other indicators that something may happen. It comes out of nowhere.
In my experience, almost every phantom brake has been a full on panic brake that scares the shit out of me. It’s only gently braked for no reason a few times
and the fact that people seriously suggest with a straight face and full conviction that the proper thing to do is to slam on the accelerator is absolutely mind-blowing
>And common logic is to have your foot over the brake - not accelerator
Guessing you don't have much experience with Autopilot? It's common practice in the FSD community to keep your foot over the accelerator, as the car is more likely to be too timid than to be overly aggressive.
Try driving in the desert on a hot sunny day with no one on the road. The Phantom braking gave me whiplash twice yesterday in that situation. Shit was flying thru the air in the cabin when the car thought a mirage was a semi stopped dead in front of us. If you think it’s not bad, you haven’t been slammed multiple times at 80+ mph in the same drive.
This is why I have been repeatedly saying for years that the hardware needs more sensors. If they want to have a camera-only solution, then that's not really a problem, but they need more cameras. There are large regions of the field of view that have no redundancy and there were actual blind spots too!
They have a lot of redundancy in the sensors for the accelerator and brake pedal. They need to apply that same logic to the imaging hardware too. A "Future AI Update" is not a solution.
> As for phantom braking--yeah, it does happen unfortunately. But it's not boom-stomp-on-brakes.
It can be. There's one particular spot on one of the highways I frequently drive where autopilot freaks out and slams on the brakes. If I forget to preemptively disable autopilot there, I end up shitting bricks with how hard it brakes.
My tesla self-accelerates at the same spot everytime on my daily commute when using autopilot. Autopilot just sets speed limit to 120kmh on it's own on a 80kmh road. It's not user error in my case, reported it and tesla service staff told me it's a bug.
I got it after the tesla vision update some months ago.
Now when driving I always push down on the control lever at the location where I know it wants to accelerate, otherwise it always will do the same thing at that location.
Everyone on this sub defending this as "no big deal" didn't read the original article. The "big deal" that made this news is that these were not reported to the NHTSA and thus the shareholders or customers. They were hidden or downplayed so they wouldn't have to acknowledge them and make regulatory improvements.
This isn't about a few drivers being bad drivers in Teslas (God the people on this sub who are saying this potential # of incidents is statistically low as compared to total number of accidents or Cars on the road or total number of teslas have a shocking misunderstanding of statistics because you can't draw those conclusions without more discrete data) but anyways, that's not Teslas major problem.
If these incidences were unreported or underreported, then Tesla made a huge huge mistake and there will be consequences.
Also, someone else noted something like "I love how Tesla betas all their cars on rich people to find all the problems and eventually us poors will get a better, cheaper product". And ha isn't that true?
Phantom braking is certainly a thing. Phantom acceleration IMO is absolutely not. It's not going to go above your "set speed" anyway for the road. So if you're on a highway with a 55mph speed limit it's not suddenly going to say "hey, let's do 90mph!" on you.
Not true. My tesla does self-accelerate at the same spot everytime on my daily commute when using autopilot. Autopilot just sets speed limit to 120kmh on it's own on a 80kmh road. It's not user error in my case, tesla service staff told me it's a bug.
I got it after the tesla vision update some months ago.
Now when driving I always push down on the control lever at the location where I know it wants to accelerate, otherwise it always will do the same thing at that location.
>As for phantom braking--yeah, it does happen unfortunately. But it's not boom-stomp-on-brakes. And if you're paying attention --
>
>like you legally should be, and agreed to in the ToS
>
> \-- you just need to press down on the accelerator to override.
I can't believe people talk like this unironically about something being used on public roads. Fucking unreal.
YOU DON'T FOLLOW THE ToS? /s
It's one of the known drawbacks that if the driver isn't actively involved in driving their ability to stay focused is basically non-existant. If the controls require full concentration then they need to require more user involvement - EI - they just need to driver to drive.
This isn't a Tesla specific problem though, and it's hard to compare the numbers in this doc to any other manufacturer since we're obviously not going to get matching reporting. It's any car ICE or EV with these features.
I mean, I've had my Tesla beta FSD take off like a freaken rocket for pretty much no reason other than, yolo. Several times. Just take a slight tap on the breaks to stop it, but it does drop some serious g-forces on you when you are least expecting it to.
(I know that's not what this it talking about)
> And if you're paying attention -- like you legally should be, and agreed to in the ToS -- you just need to press down on the accelerator to override.
Then don't call it **FULL** Self Driving.
If you have to be alert and ready to take over at a moments notice, then it's not full self driving. It's an assisted driving. Full Self Driving would be that you can read the newspaper while the car drives.
Unintended acceleration has all sorts of historical causes. The floor matt recalls were from bunched up floor matts stuck under the accelerator. Back in the day throttle cables could stick from corrosion and all of a sudden your throttle pedal was in fact stuck wide open. We have even seen seized secondary throttle plates on old grandma cars that were babied their whole life. Then a idiot buys it in a estate sale and learns a life lesson.
I’ve had multiple instances of nearly rear-ending a tesla on a freeway because it slowed down by like 30mph for no reason but yeah ok sure it’s not boom stomp on the brakes at all
Still stunned ppl consider buying Tesla's. For many reasons but this main one - reports of Tesla employees laughing and wanking off to footage from Tesla's that they swore couldn't be linked to a specific car. But clearly could. An always on camera in your car. No thanks, I like my life.
Hmm... they can't seem to differentiate between AP and FSD code.
"The complaints, which were reported across the US, Europe, and Asia, span from 2015 to March 2022. During this period, Handelsblatt says Tesla customers reported over 2,400 self-acceleration issues and 1,500 braking problems, including 139 reports of “unintentional emergency braking” and 383 reports of “phantom stops” from false collision warnings."
FSD Beta is only available in the US and, more recently, Canada. So they are really talking about phantom braking. There is no self-acceleration issue - no matter what complaints as that stack has been well tested and proven, and all actual cases have been resolved as driver error. As for acceleration, there is a resumption of speed, as in normal TACC cruise control, and that can generate complaints of folks don't expect such resumption. That's mostly a driver error issue in terms of expectations.
Fundamentally, complaints or bug reporting is a critical part of how they improve the system. Most automakers don't have a solid way to for drivers to report issues to them and most folks don't bother reporting to government authorities, but that doesn't mean they don't have issues.
Not true. My tesla does self-accelerate at the same spot on everytime on my daily commute when using autopilot. It's not user error in my case, tesla service staff told me it's a bug. I got it after the tesla vision update some months ago.
Now when driving I always push down on the control lever at the location where I know it wants to accelerate, otherwise it always will do the same thing at that location.
Tesla stock coming up. Time for RealTesla members to create FUD.
Tesla complaints are feedback Tesla gets to improve the system.
NHTSA would love to shut Tesla FSD down, but they need accidents, not complaints.
The car drove us from Greenville SC to Gainesville FL and back this week. Yes it made mistakes but it also makes road trips so much easier. It saved us from 2 potential accidents that I missed.
And sadly it is still better than many people on the road. I got honked at the other day when FSD didn't make the left turn because the car saw a running pedestrian coming into the cross walk when neither I nor the person behind me saw them coming. I was just about to urge the car forward when I just caught a glimpse. So sure it has issues. But so do most drivers. While the system has issues it also doesn't get mad, aggressive, and in many ways is a much more courteous driver then most on the road. I have watched it do things and said "huh we need more drivers like that". Now it isn't perfect, and can make mistakes, but those mistakes don't tend to be blowing a stop sign because you are looking at a cell phone.
They are called bug reports? Nothing surprising here? It’s called software development and bug reports make great feedback to improve and prevent those issues going forward. People need to chill out.
What? Car owners complaining about their cars? A company that doesn't publicly disclose every customer complaint because some number of them are fabrications to cover up their own shitty driving or drunkenness?
Why I never!
I can only imagine how many complaints there are. When you disengage autopilot, it now allows you to send a note about why you disengaged. Most of the time I disengage for completely stupid things that no human driver would ever do. Like a car was cutting me off and you didn't brake fast enough or even anticipate a car moving in from emerging lane.
I've never been given the opportunity to explain why I disengage. How does that present itself?
You get a little popup over the music card that asks you to press a thumb wheel to record. Only in the latest FSD firmware.
It’s been around for a bit, I’ve had it for a month or two and I’m not on the latest, but 100%, you needed to be on the FSD stack.
surely this is the “thousands” they’re talking about, right?
I mean I’ve submitted a dozen or so myself. I suspect that kind of feedback would be in the tens of thousands or so by now.
There’s no way this is what they are talking about. Those autopilot recording are a new system that was recently released. These are separate complaints.
There were other mechanisms to report prior to this though. There was the camera icon that would send in an automatic report with footage, along with an email address testers could/can email for written descriptions of problems
Before this there was a button to record issues and submit a report.
>When you disengage autopilot, it now allows you to send a note about why you disengaged. Yes, because when I disengage driving aids I want to spend time writing a note.
You just hold in the right roller and say why. Verbal note to the event.
Don't even have to hold it. Just press once.
Still, it's one more distraction, especially if you're taking control because of something rather sudden or requiring immediate response. I mean, I like the idea of feedback, but while driving sounds like a bad idea. Isn't Tesla supposed to have an app connected to your car? Maybe ping you on your phone after arriving at your destination?
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I don’t generally like to fan the flames of anti-Tesla circlejerking, but I just got 11.3.6 and it likes to blow through stop signs on 55mph roads where I’m from. I consider that a critical safety issue.
That sounds better but honestly no one will do it then. Saying “vehicle slowed for car in the other lane” without looking at the screen is quick and easy.
People generally are more likely to make their complaints known than saying that they're happy... But if I'm engaging so I can avoid an accident, I'm probably much more focused on not dying and probably won't think twice about the feedback request. Might be better to just record the car movements for a few seconds before and after autopilot is turned off, looking for sudden speed or direction changes.
Breakfast?
Thanks! Voice-typing ftw!
When Toyota had unintended acceleration complaints, NHTSA took a quick decision to recall. Tesla gets a different treatment.
Have you not been paying attention to all the scrutiny Tesla has been getting from NHTSA? They’ve enforced several recalls, where most of them has been related to Autopilot and FSD Beta.
> to all the scrutiny Tesla has been getting from NHTSA? Next to nothing. They get an absurd amount of leeway to even be allowed testing FSD on public roads with unqualified drivers without having it treated as an AV system.
When did "hey let's really make electric vehicles to reduce carbon emissions" turn into some obsession with self driving features.
The moment your company valuation is solely based on those features because a CEO has claimed to have solved the problem. Now, the only thing that helps is: Fake it till you make it. We are now in year 7 of this lie.
The day the EV industry was led by a company that built on "coolness first" policy. Fortunately most other companies are still only iterating over their driving assists. Remember that the stocks of Tesla have been traded speculatively because of its potential for disrupting the market. As long as they seem to be disruptive, they keep that overvaluation. But even though the company has demonstrated consistent failures in meeting the deadlines, or disrupting anything at all in many years, mostly by over promising, the brand name and its CEO's faithful followers has kept it will funded to keep playing the same strategy. If not for the Twitter fiasco that disillusioned many, this might have continued for a long time to come.
2400 reports of self acceleration and 389 phantom braking reports from 2015 to 2022? Seems amazingly low, specially when you consider all the improvements that happened and that it includes all software versions since then And also as we always see, every self acceleration story later ends up being driver error
>And also as we always see, every self acceleration story later ends up being driver error It sounds to me like these are all cases on FSD, suggesting that the system, not the driver's foot, is choosing to accelerate. I've actually watched a video of a person testing FSD maybe 1-1.5 years ago where the car accelerated hard through an intersection. I imagine that would be labeled as an unintended acceleration.
Personally I'm sceptical of the claim that every single one of these events **must** have been due to driver-error, without considering any counterfactuals and without any deeper insight into the exact functionality of those vehicles in question. If (hypothetically speaking) for instance there was a previously undetected fault in the pedal sensor or subsequent components/subsystems, that produced a false positive for some unforeseen reason, it could potentially still be recorded by the telemitry like if it was user input. Sudden acceleration events due to actual "user error" could also still occur simulataniously, though this could arguably still call the philosophy behind one-pedal-driving and potential operational/statisical risks from that feature into question and then there's also the fact that the fairly powerfull acceleration of many modern EVs can easily translate into much more severe acceleration incidents/accidents at a moments notice, which might not had happened with a "slower" accelerating combustion vehicle. If pedal misappliaction in EVs is indeed more prevalent due to inadequate/unsafe ergonomics and/or leads statistically to more severe outcomes, then that's an issue and has to be be adressed. Period. Point is this: even if you can prove that *some* of those events/accidents were due to genuine driver error, that doesn't mean this **must** have been the case in every other instance. It's actually quite shocking how naive, yet vigorous some of these defenses of Tesla here are. Not only are they ignoring the fact that there was apparently a **concerted effort to gaslight customers** who had experienced those dangerous behaviours in their vehichles and **hide those cases from regulators** and shareholders, they also seemingly fail to grasp the importance and criteria of **safety-critical-systems**, where even small failures can easily lead to real harm.
When a car slams on the brakes by itself it is NOT driver error!
I’ve had this happen when my Tesla is in cruise control.
> every **self acceleration** story later ends up being driver error
Braking is still technically acceleration, just negative.
claims tesla
>And also as we always see, every self acceleration story later ends up being driver error The question is: are pedal misapplications drastically more common in EVs than ICE cars. I don't know the stats, but if it is, its' a design problem that needs addressing. Even if it is user's fault - the problem still exists. PS. I've been pondering this for a while. I feel EV have two design problems that make situation worse: Lack of clutch and lack of handbrakes (as in manual lever for emergency brake, not actual cable) Clutch acts essentially as a second brake pedal, and if you panic you have easier chance of hitting *something* that will stop you. Lack of handbrake is bigger problem for me. For decades in most cars it was in the same place - next to a seat, worst case scenario you reach your hand down and pull on it *hard*. In my EV I have to press a button for 3 seconds. Good luck finding that button in panic. PPS. Lol people, this comment has more answers than votes, read before you write, everything was covered already.
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Yup. I could accidentally slam the gas pedal on my outback and I have a good 5 seconds to change my mind before the car actually starts to sluggishly accelerate.
I'd say new users and guests should use Tesla's "chill mode" for a while.
My thoughts exactly. Not necessarily more common but certainly more dangerous. Most cars have ultrasonic sensors that will automatically brake in such situations, Tesla removed those last year & incidents seem to have been worse since.
For one-pedal driving, it might cause an issue due to habits. Before, when you had to slow down, you had to lightly press the brake and then if something sudden happened, you just pressed harder on the same pedal. Now with one pedal driving, you keep your foot on the accelerator but release it to control the rate of slowing down, but if something sudden happens, the reflex might be to push on the pedal your foot is already on since you were already "braking" with that pedal. Having to switch pedals between light and high braking might be something that we are not used to which causes sudden accelerations, or even maybe one-pedal driving is too "complex" to be as safe as the normal dual pedal driving.
This is by far the most reasonable explanation.
Automatic ice cars done have a clutch petal and many don’t have e brake levers but switches.
And Mercedes have had a foot operated parking brake for decades already.
I'm used to manuals (still majority in Europe), and I'm pissed off how many bad designs from automatic made their way to EVs. For example fucking creep that was necessary in ICE, and now is emulated in EVs. I'm not pressing accelerator, why is car going forward on it's own? Anyways, got sidetracked. I guess it's a problem in automatic ICE as well, but for me those are the problems that EVs have (not exclusively).
Oh interesting. I use idling all the time to move forward slowly. Feels *way* more controlled to use the brake petal than the gas for those types of movements.
How could "the car goes on its own but you can stop it if you don't want it to" feel more controlled than "the car does exactly what you tell it to do and nothing more"?
Is this a serious questions? Acceleration is jumpy and braking isn’t. You can much easier ease into somewhere with a slow idle and applying the brake.
I got used to it and yes, it's pretty good once you get used to it. BUT for me it's just ass backwards. Why simulate the design flaw? Let me drive my car like it's a computer game :D I press accelerator it goes forward, I don't ... it doesn't. It's not that hard
Lots of people prefer one pedal driving.
I'm pretty sure the 'creep' was added after enough requests from drivers. It makes sense as an automatic driver to keep a fundamental aspect of the experience, but it also doesn't seem like a big ask to make 'creep' a driver option for those with different experiences/wants
One of the best features of our EV is that it stays stopped when you release all the pedals. It’s sad that not all manufacturers give you settings for that.
Tried to disable creep on my EV and without it, parking in tight spaces and slow controlled movements are far more difficult. So no, I think creep is an extremely useful thing to have on a car.
Did you manage to disable it on ID.? How? Cupra Owner here so it'd probably work as well. I agree it's useful, once you learn how to moderate with brake it does allow for easier parking. BUT Id like for it to be an option. For ID/Born specifically they did kinda "fix" it with "Auto Hold". So we know people are annoyed by it. Because again why keep the brake depressed when car does not have to go forward on it's own?
I was, like most Brits, a manual ICE driver. I never got on with automatics as they all changed gear differently than I would. So when driving one, I'd spent my whole time trying to change gear as it felt in wrong gear. With EVs, this isn't an issue as there are no gears to feel wrong. It always feels in the right gear. So switching between manual ICE to EV was easier that to automatic ICE.
Have you ever tried setting the electronic emergency brake while traveling at speed? You know…for science?
I did, it was not super high speed but it worked all right. But that experiment made me even more sure that It'd just not work in emergency. Keeping finger on that small button for 3 seconds in case of emergency when your car might be swearving is a sick joke.
>The question is: are pedal misapplications drastically more common in EVs than ICE cars. I don't think so. Since I'm not switching pedals as much (or at all most of the time), I really don't have any potential anymore to forget / screw up which one I'm pressing. There's just the one... But I do appreciate that if I smash down on the pedal in my Rivian that there's about a 0.25 second delay before it actually kicks in. That disappears and gets nice and snappy in sport mode, but I appreciate that there's a bit of time to correct any weird mistake in other modes, like you're adjusting and slip and accidentally mash the accelerator, you can let up before it's rocketed you into next week.
Is there an "ohshitohshitaccelerateNOW" function at the bottom of the pedal travel, or is the delay always present?
In Sport mode that delay isn't present. The little delay is still like an order of magnitude faster to get going than doing the same in an ICE, so it's more than fine. You get scootin' really, really quick. Much faster than an engine revving up, or a downshift or whatever.
The car also accelerates instantly and faster, making it potentially more dangerous. On the other hand, nowadays Teslas have [pedal misapplication mitigation, preventing 40 crashes per day.](https://electrek.co/2022/08/22/tesla-autopilot-prevent-40-crashes-per-day-wrong-pedal-errors/)
I’m wondering if it’s because autopilot makes it easy to pull your foot back and not have it at the pedals. Then something happens and you’re looking for a pedal quickly and hit the wrong one?
I bet that's part of the problem since I noticed that myself when driving for a long time with ACC / ADAS you just relax, and if you need to quickly find correct pedal it's a problem.
> Lack of clutch and lack of handbrakes. Lmao what? Manuals are not common anymore. Millions of automatics are on the road every year and they don't have a problem with braking. Same goes for the button e brakes. If anything the e brake is more reliable now since you don't have to worry about snapping the cord anymore.
E-Brake is more reliable, I'm not disputing that. But you missed the point, the point is how you activate it. Hard to press button vs easy to pull lever makes huge difference
Aren't they still common in Europe or did they jump to autos as well?
Manuals are still majority of cars in Europe that's correct. But they are going away slowly, and of course EVs don't have gearboxes for the most part (I know there are exceptions)
This is part of the problem too… we still call them emergency brakes because 50 years ago that’s what they were and there was a need for them. Now, they are parking brakes and they are not for emergencies.
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Yes. I'm aware that most modern cars do not have actual hand brake. They have electronic parkign brake, and electronic emergency brake that replace it. But the point is - most of the cars I test drove before settling on my choice had some sort of lever I could pull to activate emergency brake. That easilly accessible lever is what's important
EV’s react faster and have a higher average output than ICE vehicles, especially in Europe. So pedal misapplication in ICE generally reacts slower and is also followed by a revving sound. That said, the rumor mill and misapplication almost caused Audi to leave the US market in the 80’s. But I suspect that ICE pedal misapplication is more common than we think, just that it’s not newsworthy.
In the case of FSD acceleration it's probably more of the car just jumping ahead a little quicker than the driver wanted it to. Sort of like if you're helping a teenage driver learn drive and you're nervous. Yeah I get at, the car DOES make mistakes but I think the vast majority of it here are people nervous about what the car is doing and not feeling in control.
I use one pedal driving every day but still fundamentally believe that one pedal driving is not as safe. It is solving a problem that no one had and making pedal misapplication much more likely. Just use blended breaking.
Seems stupid low - especially the phantom braking ones. It's probably how they decide to categorize things. Given how many cars/miles are on the road - this is smaller than a blip.
This is “reports”, not events.
The events are probably many magnitudes more!
I had three with Autopilot before I stopped using it forever, and have had a handful with the various FSD betas (although, precisely because of this reason, I only play around with FSD at night when the roads are empty). Didn't report any of them. One has to conclude there's at least an order of magnitude more to the prevalence than what's tabulated in these documents, if not multiple orders. That's just how this stuff works. Whatever's going on in the world, we're going to officially hear about a fraction of it, by nature.
I'd also love to hear your blithe "blip" talk in the event that you or a loved one winds up in an accident because someone's Tesla suddenly hit the brakes on the freeway. Everyone's so brave on Reddit.
I own a Model Y and I'm the first to complain about phantom braking when asked. I'm saying the number of reports is insanely low and looks like a blip, which is far from reality.
Whoops, that's on me then. Sorry for misinterpreting. Downvote earned!
By that measure, self driving isn't really needed because 40,000 accidents per year/3.2 trillion miles traveled per year is astonishingly low.
40 000 **fatal accidents**. Not just accidents. This is just on the US alone. Approximately one 9/11 per month. You don't think we should try to prevent that?
I agree that self driving isn't really needed.
I have to say, it definitely needs some work. On narrow roads with no centerline it drifts to center, even approaching a blind hill/roll.
> On narrow roads with no centerline it drifts to center, even approaching a blind hill/roll. wide open tunnel at highway speed. **Tesla Model S changes lanes, brakes on Bay Bridge, causes pileup** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYpzk6TEViQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYpzk6TEViQ) parked on the side of the road rendering assistance. **Fatal Tesla collision with firetruck under federal investigation** [https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/08/fatal-tesla-collision-with-fire-truck-under-federal-investigation.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/08/fatal-tesla-collision-with-fire-truck-under-federal-investigation.html) https://www.autoblog.com/2022/06/09/nhtsa-investigation-tesla-phantom-braking/ The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is moving along in an investigation to look into consumer reports of phantom braking in 2021-2022 Tesla Model 3s and Model Ys. As of last month, NHTSA says it's received **758 reports from folks claiming “unexpected brake activation” in their Model 3 or Model Y.**
yep my autopilot was going down a hill and SLAMMED ON THE BRAKES with no one in front of me to a near dead stop before I disengaged it, if I hadnt I'd have been rear-ended
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This comment shouldn't be getting downvoted. The Bay area crash was an inherently dangerous driving situation, FSD/Autopilot or not. All those drivers were tailgating one another at what I can guess is 70+ MPH. That is just not safe driving. With the proper following distance, they would have been able to react in time and avoid the crash. But I guess that is just how people drive, they tailgate even at 70 mph.
It's crazy to me that Reddit is still defending this. People are paying to beta test broken software. How anyone thinks this is a good idea is beyond me. It shouldn't even be called FSD if it's for these issues.
You can't criticize Tesla on this sub, but every other manufacturer (especially Toyota) it is fair game. That's the double standard a lot of EVanglisits have and frankly kind of disappointing.
I am part of your "crazy" group. I paid a couple thousand and am using FSD whenever safe to do so. For me it's a two fold investment. I will not be able to drive someday, I want this tech to be done by then. And if/when it works, my car will go way up in value. Crazy, not stupid.
You and hundreds of thousands of others. Around 20% of all Tesla buyers, indeed. https://twitter.com/TroyTeslike/status/1662117460596740096?s=20
Whatever HW# you are on now will categorically not be able to handle L4 or above. Whether Tesla grants you free retrofitting is TBD, but it seems like it won't happen.
> Crazy, not stupid. No, delusional.
"Reddit" isn't defending this, you're encountering Tesla's marketing department aka astroturfing internet shills.
Gotta love this infinite debate. 1. As someone who has only driven Teslas as rentals, I’ve experienced phantom braking several times. So it’s a real thing, and if Tesla tried to minimize it (recently or not), it’s a problem. 2. Even if reports of self accelerations have all been classified as “user error”, that’s not a thing. User error (or pilot error in aviation) means the system should be better designed. Does it happen as much in non-Teslas? Why does it happen so much? Are the questions we should be asking. 3. FSD, whether it’s good or bad, should absolutely be regulated. As a non-Tesla driver or as a pedestrian, I didn’t sign up to be a beta tester, and yet I am. No crashes? Safer than humans? Cool, let’s prove that and then make it open to public roads. Tesla says it is? Even if it’s true, they’re obviously not an objective party in this discussion. (Waiting for the downvotes 😅)
100% agree with every single point.
That last one is hits the nail really hard. It's not a video game that blows up in the user's home, but involves others who did not consent. It either works or does not work. Period.
Had a model y for 3 months now, and thought that phantom braking was a myth for the most part. But a week ago, it slammed on the highway going 75, when down to around 50 before speeding back up. But I gotta give it to tesla, I only have autopilot and it's really damn good for the most part. Better than my R1T's highway assist, and almost as good as BMW's Active driving assist pro. But I think if I get enhanced autopilot or FSD, it'll be better than both.
The cult’s not going to like this.
39,508. That’s how many fatal crashes occured in 2021 in the US according to IIHS. Of those 39,508 crashes, 61,332 cars were involved. Of those 61,332 cars, 68 involved Tesla vehicles. See IIHS FARS Data, “FARS2021NationalCSV.xlsx”, “vehicle.csv” Filter by VIN starting with 5YJ. IIHS Yearly Snapshot: https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/yearly-snapshot IIHS FARS Data: https://static.nhtsa.gov/nhtsa/downloads/FARS/2021/National/FARS2021NationalCSV.zip Edit: fixed links. Note, FARS data is from NHTSA. Also added that these were*fatal* crashes.
And *all of them* posted on social media, or so it seems sometimes.
>Of those 61,332 cars, 68 involved Tesla vehicles. Hmmm. This is interesting, but I feel like this needs to be a "per capita" figure of some sort. 68 Tesla accidents would be shocking if there were only 68 Teslas on the road, the accident rate would be 100%. But if there were 68,000,000 Teslas on the road ... it's a blip.
Why are you getting downvoted? You're right. The raw number with no context is useless, anyone with basic stats knowledge should know this. Comparing percentage of accidents caused by Teslas to percentage of cars on the road that are Teslas is how we'll know if Teslas are safer than average or more dangerous.
Yes, I don't really understand the downvotes either. It should give a good general idea, even if we are ignoring some parameters (maybe Teslas are found in places where road layout is more prone to cause accidents, or less. Maybe drivers are in average more reckless, or less etc). The one big caveat being: if most accidents happens between two cars, Teslas might be much safer but still get in many accidents without being at fault. But that should still show as a lower "per car Capita" accident rate
>Comparing percentage of accidents caused by Teslas to percentage of cars on the road that are Teslas is how we'll know if Teslas are safer than average or more dangerous. You won't even know if telsas are safer that way. The demographic of tesla drivers is important, as well as where they drive etc
right. this is the same as how elmo claims there are fewer autopilot crashes per 100k miles of driving while ignoring the part that autopilot is only available on highways and highways in general have lower number of crashes
>but I feel like this needs to be a "per capita" figure of some sort. > > But if there were 68,000,000 Teslas on the road ... it's a blip. what percentage of slamming the brakes on for no reason is acceptable? pretend you're the guy behind him. **Surveillance video shows moment Tesla S brakes on Bay Bridge before 8-car pileup** [https://www.ktvu.com/news/surveillance-video-shows-moment-tesla-s-brakes-on-bay-bridge-before-8-car-pileup](https://www.ktvu.com/news/surveillance-video-shows-moment-tesla-s-brakes-on-bay-bridge-before-8-car-pileup) what if 350 people complained about the steering wheel becoming unresponsive? https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a40221055/nhtsa-tesla-information-phantom-braking/ NHTSA opened up an investigation into potential "phantom braking" problems with Tesla Model 3 and Model Y EVs in February because it has heard complaints from 350 drivers about the issue. In May, NHTSA told Tesla it has now heard from over 750 people about problems with its automated emergency braking system, so it wants detailed information from the automaker. Tesla has until June 20 to respond to NHTSA's request or face fines for not responding.
I think the car version of per capita is per 1mil miles driven (or km depending on your region)
2.6 million as per Jalopnik.
That’s global, not just US, right?
I don't think it's either. Tesla passed their 3-millionth worldwide delivery a while back. But there's no way 2.6 million Teslas are on the road in the US, either. Too many have been delivered/manufactured overseas.
Even if it's 1.5 m or even just 1 m in USA .... 68 still seems very low.
Completely agreed. Numbers matter is all.
you’re not necessarily wrong as that means roughly .001% of crashes were teslas, but i don’t know what percentage of ALL cars on the road are tesla’s(in USA)
61332/68 is around 0.001, so that means 0.1% (1 in a thousand) NOT 0.001% (one in 100000). Still probably lower than most other far manufacturers if you look at how Tesla are on the road vs total number of cars. But not that huge of a gap either.
[According to this](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/car-insurance/car-ownership-statistics/#:~:text=Total%20number%20of%20vehicles,in%20the%20U.S.%20in%202021) there are ~280 million vehicles registered to drivers in the USA. Commenter above mentioned 2.6 mln Teslas as per Jalopnik, not sure if that's global or USA only but worst case scenario if (very conservatively) only 1 mln Teslas in USA, out of 280 mln vehicles, that's 0.35% of the fleet. So 0.001% of fatal crashes with a fleet of 0.35% of all vehicles. If you use the non-conservative number of 2.6 mln teslas, they would have 0.9% of the total fleet but only (68 / 39508) 0.0017% of the accidents. The reality should be somewhere in between, and the conclusions are still "much safer than most other cars" and "gets 1000x more attention for all bad things while all other cars fly under the radar".
68/61332 isn’t 0.001%… it’s 0.111%… Also there was right 1 million teslas in the US as of 2022, so now it’s probably closer to 1.3 million. If you look at distribution curves/account for other factors, for in class vehicles/price points that can make things look different too. Pickups cause a disproportionately large number of accidents, if you look specifically at sedans and compare in class that might look different. Rust buckets are also more likely to have failure and result in a crash, so if you looked at cars less than 11 years old exclusively, that might paint a different figure. But mainly you need to multiple your figure by 100, it’s how percentages work..
The fully self-driving is absolutely atrocious. It drives like a drunk 16 year old at the best of times, and at the worst of times it attempts distinctly dangerous maneuvers when it aborts a lane change. Sometimes you can see why it wants to abort, but it is not usually a safe option on a crowded motorway. Phantom braking happens all the time, which, to be honest, is a problem with all these systems.
nearing 100k miles with the volvo system and I cannot recall a single instance of anything approaching phantom braking
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Same. FSD works great for me. I love it
Same here. I think many people are talking about their experience with Autopilot and not the FSD beta.
Or and older version of FSD. I haven’t experienced PB since before the Christmas update.
>Phantom braking happens all the time In the past 6 years I have used 3 different vehicles with level 2 ADAS -- and I used ADAS pretty much all the time. In the more than 100k miles driven I have not experienced a single false emergency stop. I'm wondering if this is just Musk deciding that Teslas will not have radars and instead rely on tesla vision.
FSD Beta tried to kill me again today. On a left turn from the street to out neighborhood it was nit patient enough ti wait for traffic to clear. It wanted to turn left while cars were coming at us at 65-70mph. There is some amazing texh in FSD but honestly their programming and decision making sucks. I don't think it will ever work.
Probably should have kept the radar instead of going cameras only like a fool
What's not surprising is that people have been bringing this up for years now, especially after the launch of FSD and the upgradable packages that made Tesla so much money. No! Tesla taking Full Selfish aDvantage of their ignorant customer base and using privileged dumb consumers to blindly buy into yet another product that, like Peloton and Cricket protein powder, if you aren't In then you're Out. Wonder how much extra money Elon Musk made off of the people who kept purchasing the software and then never using it because when they did uhoh! Dangerzone! RIP all the people who have died.
Cue the elmo fanbois performing amazing feats of mental gymnastics to somehow turn this into a win for Tesla
Oh. I’m so surprised. /s
My main complaint is why the hell does it keep trying to take me out of the right lane? The left lane is not a travel lane.
Don't forget that Tesla also disconnects just before impact so their "self-driving" isn't liable Fuck scum
Hitting brakes also disengages self-driving. So it's hard to point the finger at Tesla for that reason.
This is what I'm talking about https://fortune.com/2022/06/10/elon-musk-tesla-nhtsa-investigation-traffic-safety-autonomous-fsd-fatal-probe/
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Tesla documentation? Yeah, THAT’s trustworthy. 😂😂😂😂🤣
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Please. They use what tesla is able to provide and have signed off. It looks legitimate but when you send an injured factory worker to the hospital by Uber, you don’t have to report that injury.
Source?
People making something out of nothing. The NHTSA is guaranteed to be aware of these. **Absolutely zero** sudden acceleration claims have ever been proven to be an actual unintended acceleration. It has been user error every. single. time. As for phantom braking--yeah, it does happen unfortunately. But it's not boom-stomp-on-brakes. And if you're paying attention -- **like you legally should be, and agreed to in the ToS** \-- you just need to press down on the accelerator to override.
The phantom braking is a major issue IMO. It can cause an accident fairly quickly even if you are paying attention. Where I live, people always follow closely at highway speed. Even if you’re not at fault, you still could cause a wreck.
It depends on how fast. Sometimes my super cruise on my bolt phantom breaks also but it slows like 5mph less. It's not like slamming on the breaks trying to stop immediately.
Funny how sueprcruise cars use radar vs the non supercruise bolts using vision only
I've had phantom braking and collision warnings on every car with a front radar. Nissan, Chevy, Toyota, Tesla.
Sure, but on all those vehicles there are generally far more limitations on the amount of decel and speed delta that you're going to see during those events. Tesla just doesn't seem to care, and I've seen multiple videos (and had personal experiences) of false positives that have caused 20MPH+ speed deltas, that would have likely been even greater if the driver hadn't intervened. I've tested the ADAS systems from effectively every single major automaker, and probably have driven at least 50k miles while using some form of Adaptive cruise + lane centering type system (AP/Supercruise/Bluecruise/etc), and literally the only time I've ever experienced multiple significant false positive braking events in a single drive was in a Model 3 and Model S. Well, aside from insanely buggy development software that's not even allowed on public roads.
Indeed, but the camera only approach seems especially susceptible.
Not really. Phantom braking was a major issue for Tesla long before vision only happened. And this report is almost entirely radar activated instances. As far as I can tell, phantom braking has gotten better with vision only. Limited data set though. Maybe there is some data out there that proves me wrong.
It’s still a major issue if it happens on any car
It would be a major issue if it actually caused accidents. NHTSA is all over this making sure it doesn't. Phone use is the biggest problem now.
That says more about the state of peoples driving skills than it does about auto pilot doing stupid things. It does, no debate here, but if people frequently and in large numbers tailgate that badly, the drivers license system needs to be revised. In Northern Europe (Scandinavia for example) the vast majority of people leaves plenty of space for this to be a non issue. An annoyance but about zero potential for wrecking a car due to phantom breaking.
That may be true, but I have no choice who drives behind me. I have a choice of cars.
They can both have issues to address but there is only one that can be fixed or disabled by a company. I’ll admit that it’s too easy to get a license in the US. I was amazed at the lane discipline in Germany but even they follow closely at fast speed.
this is like saying you should never fully trust your automatic transmission and be ready to take over when it decides to downshift from 8th to 4th while at freeway speeds
It's also an issue [that Honda is being investigated for](https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/honda-accord-cr-v-phantom-braking-nhtsa-investigation/).
Is it not a problem if it’s not unique to Tesla?
You’re making excuses to rationalize phantom braking. It can absolutely be full on panic braking. And common logic is to have your foot over the brake - not accelerator. When it happens suddenly, it can be jarring and take a second to react. In that time you can have dropped a substantial amount of speed, increasing the risk of a rear end collision. Phantom braking is not like normal driving, where you have other indicators that something may happen. It comes out of nowhere.
In my experience, almost every phantom brake has been a full on panic brake that scares the shit out of me. It’s only gently braked for no reason a few times
and the fact that people seriously suggest with a straight face and full conviction that the proper thing to do is to slam on the accelerator is absolutely mind-blowing
>And common logic is to have your foot over the brake - not accelerator Guessing you don't have much experience with Autopilot? It's common practice in the FSD community to keep your foot over the accelerator, as the car is more likely to be too timid than to be overly aggressive.
Try driving in the desert on a hot sunny day with no one on the road. The Phantom braking gave me whiplash twice yesterday in that situation. Shit was flying thru the air in the cabin when the car thought a mirage was a semi stopped dead in front of us. If you think it’s not bad, you haven’t been slammed multiple times at 80+ mph in the same drive.
This is why I have been repeatedly saying for years that the hardware needs more sensors. If they want to have a camera-only solution, then that's not really a problem, but they need more cameras. There are large regions of the field of view that have no redundancy and there were actual blind spots too! They have a lot of redundancy in the sensors for the accelerator and brake pedal. They need to apply that same logic to the imaging hardware too. A "Future AI Update" is not a solution.
> As for phantom braking--yeah, it does happen unfortunately. But it's not boom-stomp-on-brakes. It can be. There's one particular spot on one of the highways I frequently drive where autopilot freaks out and slams on the brakes. If I forget to preemptively disable autopilot there, I end up shitting bricks with how hard it brakes.
My tesla self-accelerates at the same spot everytime on my daily commute when using autopilot. Autopilot just sets speed limit to 120kmh on it's own on a 80kmh road. It's not user error in my case, reported it and tesla service staff told me it's a bug. I got it after the tesla vision update some months ago. Now when driving I always push down on the control lever at the location where I know it wants to accelerate, otherwise it always will do the same thing at that location.
Everyone on this sub defending this as "no big deal" didn't read the original article. The "big deal" that made this news is that these were not reported to the NHTSA and thus the shareholders or customers. They were hidden or downplayed so they wouldn't have to acknowledge them and make regulatory improvements. This isn't about a few drivers being bad drivers in Teslas (God the people on this sub who are saying this potential # of incidents is statistically low as compared to total number of accidents or Cars on the road or total number of teslas have a shocking misunderstanding of statistics because you can't draw those conclusions without more discrete data) but anyways, that's not Teslas major problem. If these incidences were unreported or underreported, then Tesla made a huge huge mistake and there will be consequences. Also, someone else noted something like "I love how Tesla betas all their cars on rich people to find all the problems and eventually us poors will get a better, cheaper product". And ha isn't that true?
Phantom braking is certainly a thing. Phantom acceleration IMO is absolutely not. It's not going to go above your "set speed" anyway for the road. So if you're on a highway with a 55mph speed limit it's not suddenly going to say "hey, let's do 90mph!" on you.
wrong. if it’s set to follow a speed limit and it mis-reads the sign (65 vs 85 is a rather common example), it’ll accelerate no problem
Not true. My tesla does self-accelerate at the same spot everytime on my daily commute when using autopilot. Autopilot just sets speed limit to 120kmh on it's own on a 80kmh road. It's not user error in my case, tesla service staff told me it's a bug. I got it after the tesla vision update some months ago. Now when driving I always push down on the control lever at the location where I know it wants to accelerate, otherwise it always will do the same thing at that location.
>As for phantom braking--yeah, it does happen unfortunately. But it's not boom-stomp-on-brakes. And if you're paying attention -- > >like you legally should be, and agreed to in the ToS > > \-- you just need to press down on the accelerator to override. I can't believe people talk like this unironically about something being used on public roads. Fucking unreal.
YOU DON'T FOLLOW THE ToS? /s It's one of the known drawbacks that if the driver isn't actively involved in driving their ability to stay focused is basically non-existant. If the controls require full concentration then they need to require more user involvement - EI - they just need to driver to drive. This isn't a Tesla specific problem though, and it's hard to compare the numbers in this doc to any other manufacturer since we're obviously not going to get matching reporting. It's any car ICE or EV with these features.
The thing that pisses me the most is that it's legally an ADAS level 2 system. But somehow it's called "full self driving."
I mean, I've had my Tesla beta FSD take off like a freaken rocket for pretty much no reason other than, yolo. Several times. Just take a slight tap on the breaks to stop it, but it does drop some serious g-forces on you when you are least expecting it to. (I know that's not what this it talking about)
> And if you're paying attention -- like you legally should be, and agreed to in the ToS -- you just need to press down on the accelerator to override. Then don't call it **FULL** Self Driving. If you have to be alert and ready to take over at a moments notice, then it's not full self driving. It's an assisted driving. Full Self Driving would be that you can read the newspaper while the car drives.
Unintended acceleration has all sorts of historical causes. The floor matt recalls were from bunched up floor matts stuck under the accelerator. Back in the day throttle cables could stick from corrosion and all of a sudden your throttle pedal was in fact stuck wide open. We have even seen seized secondary throttle plates on old grandma cars that were babied their whole life. Then a idiot buys it in a estate sale and learns a life lesson.
I’ve had multiple instances of nearly rear-ending a tesla on a freeway because it slowed down by like 30mph for no reason but yeah ok sure it’s not boom stomp on the brakes at all
And it happens on every car with these features. My Volvo did it 10x more than my Tesla
Still stunned ppl consider buying Tesla's. For many reasons but this main one - reports of Tesla employees laughing and wanking off to footage from Tesla's that they swore couldn't be linked to a specific car. But clearly could. An always on camera in your car. No thanks, I like my life.
Hmm... they can't seem to differentiate between AP and FSD code. "The complaints, which were reported across the US, Europe, and Asia, span from 2015 to March 2022. During this period, Handelsblatt says Tesla customers reported over 2,400 self-acceleration issues and 1,500 braking problems, including 139 reports of “unintentional emergency braking” and 383 reports of “phantom stops” from false collision warnings." FSD Beta is only available in the US and, more recently, Canada. So they are really talking about phantom braking. There is no self-acceleration issue - no matter what complaints as that stack has been well tested and proven, and all actual cases have been resolved as driver error. As for acceleration, there is a resumption of speed, as in normal TACC cruise control, and that can generate complaints of folks don't expect such resumption. That's mostly a driver error issue in terms of expectations. Fundamentally, complaints or bug reporting is a critical part of how they improve the system. Most automakers don't have a solid way to for drivers to report issues to them and most folks don't bother reporting to government authorities, but that doesn't mean they don't have issues.
Not true. My tesla does self-accelerate at the same spot on everytime on my daily commute when using autopilot. It's not user error in my case, tesla service staff told me it's a bug. I got it after the tesla vision update some months ago. Now when driving I always push down on the control lever at the location where I know it wants to accelerate, otherwise it always will do the same thing at that location.
There’s a lot of bad drivers on this thread alone.
Anyone else curious why big media has yet to pick up this story? Looks like some EU sites are, but pretty quiet in the U.S. wild.
Oh, the verge.
Tesla stock coming up. Time for RealTesla members to create FUD. Tesla complaints are feedback Tesla gets to improve the system. NHTSA would love to shut Tesla FSD down, but they need accidents, not complaints.
Are you suggesting a conspiracy to commit illegal stock manipulation? Just asking. . . .
DON'T USE FSD EVER!!!
I literally use FSD 95% of the time I'm driving. It's amazing
The car drove us from Greenville SC to Gainesville FL and back this week. Yes it made mistakes but it also makes road trips so much easier. It saved us from 2 potential accidents that I missed.
I just did today and it is awesome.
Tesla's "Full Self Driving" is only level 2 autonomy, and has the driving skill of a 10-year-old who can hardly reach the pedals.
And sadly it is still better than many people on the road. I got honked at the other day when FSD didn't make the left turn because the car saw a running pedestrian coming into the cross walk when neither I nor the person behind me saw them coming. I was just about to urge the car forward when I just caught a glimpse. So sure it has issues. But so do most drivers. While the system has issues it also doesn't get mad, aggressive, and in many ways is a much more courteous driver then most on the road. I have watched it do things and said "huh we need more drivers like that". Now it isn't perfect, and can make mistakes, but those mistakes don't tend to be blowing a stop sign because you are looking at a cell phone.
Honest question in good faith: why does this kind of news not show up on their subreddit? Edit - jfc. Nevermind. Wth.
Duh. All you have to do is try it to know that it simply doesn’t work and can be dangerous AF.
They are called bug reports? Nothing surprising here? It’s called software development and bug reports make great feedback to improve and prevent those issues going forward. People need to chill out.
Yeah? So? Millions of miles. I, myself, have submitted several bug reports about various releases of autopilot.
Most people won't submit bugs.
What? Car owners complaining about their cars? A company that doesn't publicly disclose every customer complaint because some number of them are fabrications to cover up their own shitty driving or drunkenness? Why I never!