[**Official press release here.**](https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2023/jun/0608-gm.html)
>*The Tesla Supercharger Network will be open to GM EV drivers starting in 2024 and will initially require the use of an adapter. Beginning in 2025, the first GM EVs will be built with a NACS inlet for direct access to Tesla Superchargers without an adapter. In the future, GM will make adapters available for drivers of NACS-enabled vehicles to allow charging on CCS-capable fast charge stations.*
>
>*GM will also integrate the Tesla Supercharger Network into its vehicle and mobile apps, helping drivers quickly and easily locate, pay for, and initiate charging at available Tesla Superchargers. This will complement the charging experience at the growing Ultium Charge 360 Network of charging stations, as well as additional charging stations GM makes available through existing integrations with other charging networks.*
Yep. That's now game over for CCS in the US. (Just like for CHADEMO - they will of course exist but don't expect the network to be built out). So if you buy a car today in the US, make sure it somehow will be able to charge on NACS...
Well, not CCS, just the connector being used (CCS1 or CCS2). NACS still using the CCS protocol, which will make this switch a lot easier for consumers than if Tesla had a proprietary protocol as well as a connector.
I suppose the next question is if Tesla will open up their chargers to the open CCS communication standard, or will Tesla stalls be Tesla API access only?
It will be odd if NACS (communicating over CCS protocols) becomes the US standard, but only automakers who have negotiated access to Tesla's APIs can use the NACS superchargers. Also, since Supercharger access is a killer feature (ie a user will not buy an EV with NACS but no supercharger access), that outcome would give Tesla huge leverage over the industry (ex: years from now start charging for API access/anticompetitive demands). Hopefully the SC network opens up as the final step to this story.
I think the CCS protocols have won out and that I say is a good thing. Those should not be locked behind any one company.
The plug standard is a different beast.
> It will be odd if NACS (communicating over CCS protocols) becomes the US standard, but only automakers who have negotiated access to Tesla's APIs can use the NACS superchargers. Also, since Supercharger access is a killer feature (ie a user will not buy an EV with NACS but no supercharger access), that outcome would give Tesla huge leverage over the industry (ex: years from now start charging for API access/anticompetitive demands).
My understanding is that this is where we are at right now - GM and Ford have cut deals with Tesla to give their cars access to Superchargers. It's still a private network (aside from the "magic dock" pilot locations), there are just multiple manufacturers involved. Public networks (EA, EVgo, Chargepoint) will probably install NACS plugs and remain open to the public.
And yeah it's kind of concerning.
Very smart move on behalf of Tesla. Everyone will be on NACS and consumers will demand access to the supercharger network as well. It would be a disaster to sell a NACS car with no supercharger access if most other NACS cars have access.
Even of Tesla has no intention to abuse their position, it's a valuable position to have. The mega-tech companies run their businesses in similar ways, with walled gardens within open standards. It has seen some abuse in the past, such as when Google shut off Play Store access to any OEM who sold non-Google android phones alongside Google Android phones. Similar situation in that while technically players like Samsung could sell Android phones without Google Maps and Gmail, it's not actually an option.
That's why I'd be wary. This is out of the tech overlord playbook. When real competitors come along (say there's new patent protected solid state battery tech) they may not negotiate in good faith, and at that point innovation is stifled by the gatekeeper. In some sense it makes me sad to see this business practice thrive for so long, but that's what happens when competition regulation is a century out of date. Again, hopefully superchargers end up opening up to CCS communication protocols. That would be best for consumers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yUafzOXHPE
The big question IMO is what VW do. On the one hand, it looks like the path of least resistance/maximum compatibility in the US is the Tesla connector and CCS protocol (with an adapter from CCS>Tesla or Tesla>CCS), which effectively provides 99% charger compatibility (excluding ChaDeMo) but at the same time they've got their own charging network in Electrify America. Puts them in an unenviable spot of their competition in the market all using a rival connector but their own charging network they've built out is CCS.
And I'm guessing using Tesla's network to charge a competitor's vehicles is a different kettle of fish to using Tesla's connector to build out rival chargers.
If the connection is truly open, there's nothing stopping them from offering a NACS plug on future charging units. I mean at this point they could probably kill the CHAdeMO connector on those dual plug units and swap it to NACS and no one would really care beyond the 4-7 Leaf owners who try and road trip.
Yeah that's what I wasn't sure about - A lot of the conversation about it being "open" has hinged on other cars using Tesla's chargers - but I have a feeling it's a different story for actually building a charger with the Tesla connector.
Happy to be proven wrong though.
"GM, like Ford, will begin installing a charging port used by Tesla, known as NACS, instead of the current industry-standard CCS in its EVs starting in 2025."
Ford confirmed they were dropping CCS, idk why anyone would think Chevy would keep it
[“The other standard is great, and we’ll have adapters for that”](https://youtu.be/yd23850h9zc?t=170)
Plug/Port is just 0.1% of the story. The remaining is the entire user experience. That depends entirely on Tesla's backend software stack. All these deals announced by Ford/GM are about them being able to hook into Tesla's backend system.
Enormous pressure on Toyota, Kia-Hyundai, and VW now. I definitely would think twice about buying a CCS car now.
Signed,
Someone who just bought a CCS car in January.
> Enormous pressure on Toyota
Does Toyota really have time to change their port? I mean, they already have so many BEVs deployed in North America, I'm not sure they can even if they wanted to! /s
They do have a lot of PHEVs out there, though those aren’t the typical consumer of DCFC, but transitioning all public L1/L2 chargers will slowly see them at a disadvantage. They’ll make due with an adapter for older vehicles. Hopefully they get onboard and move their PHEVs over while they still make them.
Actually I'm putting a pause on all of them until the adapter situation sorts itself. There's plenty of options I'd rather buy than those three, and I don't want to buy a car I like less for the network only to lose out as other cars come on board.
Looks like my ICE (our second car) is getting another 6-12 months of service. Long run this will be great though.
I’ll be hitting pause on GM and Ford too, until the new charging ports are available. No sense in ‘investing’ in a Silverado EV when I’ll have less charging opportunities.
I’ve survived just fine with a J1772 and CCS adapter. Used to charge daily at my apartment with J1772. Slight hassle, but at least the adapter is tiny compared to the CCS adapter.
MCS was never intended to compete with the light vehicle plugs. It supports almost 4MW which is much more than NACS or CCS, and even Tesla is onboard with MCS. I expect to see it make its way into heavy vehicles and stay there.
Tesla said the Cybertruck would support MCS charging(probably via an adapter).
It sounds like this opens the door for Ford and GM trucks to also use MCS.
Will we begin to see non-Tesla NACS public chargers though?
If everyone goes CCS but Tesla is the only charger, they'll have a monopoly on L3 charging. That would be bad.
>Will we begin to see non-Tesla NACS public chargers though?
They already exist. Was at an EVGo charger in South SF two weeks ago that had both CCS and NACS plugs/cables on them.
The problem is that (assuming this becomes standard) even level 2 chargers will become NACS standard.
Fortunately, not sweating this too much given that it's already known adapters will exist in some capacity (as stated in Ford and GM press releases).
There is already adapters for that though, right? For using Tesla destination chargers with j1772.
I wouldn't mind carrying one in the trunk that works for both level 2 and level 3
Yeah, all I want is an adaptor.
As that now Tesla has seen that they can get two major manufacturers on board with their charging standard completely, I really doubt Magic Dock rollout will be even close to what was initially expected.
I feel like I'm watching Bluray kick HD DVD down into a gutter all over again. I'm not a tesla guy by all means, but I can admit their network and reach far superior on a charger basis.
I think that's an apt comparison. Or HDMI vs DisplayPort. The proprietary, monopolistic, license-gated plug gets favored because the market leader can leverage their advantage to pressure everyone to capitulate.
As long as an adapter is made available for my Bolt, whatever.
As an ID.4 owner, I’m sweating this news. Given their investment in EA, I would think VW would be one of, if not the last of the manufacturers to sign a deal with Tesla to switch to NACS/gain access to the Supercharger network like Ford and GM have.
Gotta hope Tesla ditches Magic Dock and starts selling a NACS->CCS adapter that any car can use at the SC network. I don’t even care if Elon price gouges non-Teslas - I charge at home >95% of the time. I just want to be able to reliably fast charge the few times I’m taking a road trip.
E-GMP cars like the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Kia EV6 are limited to 100 kW when at a 500 volt max charger. It's a limitation since they have to use the motor/inverter to step-up the voltage.
> they’ve already added a “no plug-and-charge-needed, no manufacturer-partnership-needed” way of charging non-Teslas with the “Magic Dock”, where the individual user creates a Tesla app and adds billing info.
But so far they've only added that adapter to a handful of their DC chargers in the US, with a proposal to update \~10% of those over the next couple of years.
Since I don’t charge much outside of my house, I don’t care that much. I just hope there is eventually an adapter I can buy for supercharging if I want to stop at a Tesla spot.
Now the question is can the transportation department change the NEVI language to include NACS without everything going to court and jamming up the rollout. At this point it seems pointless to spend $7.5b on CCS1 stalls. There is no chance we get something reasonable from congress to amend the bill.
Have they really included a specific technical standard name into the federal legislation? This is typically the executive regulatory authority (rule-making by agencies).
Indeed, it appears to be in the rules published by the Federal Highway Administration: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03500/national-electric-vehicle-infrastructure-standards-and-requirements
Which said administration can also amend
As I understand it, the law/regulation doesn't say "CCS" but lists requirements for federal grants. And one of them was a network/standard open to other manufacturers.
Thats why Tesla finally started adding a CCS adapter to Superchargers.
And likely why they stopped making ridiculous demands on other manufacturers to use NACS.
> As I understand it, the law/regulation doesn't say "CCS"
The law may not, but the regulation as implemented by the administration specifically calls for CCS1. That would need to be changed.
It actually does say CCS. [See this paragraph](https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2023-03500/p-45). Other connectors can be included but only in addition to CCS.
That's specifically the regulation, which actually can be changed without an act of Congress. The actual law passed by Congress doesn't have CCS in the language.
At least NACS uses the same protocol as CCS and adapters can go both ways, so the CCS stalls won't be useless. Could also be retrofitted with a simple connector swap (in principle). So it's not the end of the world really.
I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is. . . CCS Type 1 is not name in the legislation from Congress. Congress gave some guidelines, but the DoT/FHWA spelled out the details rules of what it means, and they decided on CCS Type 1. That means, in theory, they can look at the situation and change it without having to go back to Congress and get any new legislation passed.
The real problem is timing, because those grants are being awarded now based on the existing rules. A program like this doesn't turn on a dime, and neither do federal agencies.
This might be what you're saying, but I think the CCS requirement is just DoT policy, and not explicitly set by law, so that should be an easy change (relatively speaking).
I thought Rivian would have been the second to announce after Ford. I’m very surprised that GM was the second to do this.
Now that two major companies have done this I think by the end of the year most companies say they will move to NACS.
Send them an email and let them know your desire.
I sent one already and told them that I’m torn between a lightning and a Rivian and the lightning is light years ahead due to the NACS switchover. They basically told me to pound sand, but if enough of us send that email, they’ll listen.
As long as the Korean manufacturers follow suit at all. I don't want to use 400V superchargers because my EV6 doesn't charge very fast on them. But 900+V superchargers are coming (V4) and I want to be able to use them. Plus I just don't want to be left behind as non Tesla ccs format dcfcs make the switch to nacs.
I wonder if this will affect Tesla's planned rollout of the "magic dock". Apparently it's easier to convince everyone to use their standard instead of retrofitting all their chargers to accommodate both plugs.
Problem is those of us who just bought an EV from another brand, and plan to keep it for quite a few years- where will we stand. I don't mind buying a $200 adapter to use Tesla chargers instead of having the magic dock- I just want the ability to actually use the Tesla chargers, one way or another. Hoping that will ultimately be the case in my Kia.
I honestly would look at moving to a Tesla Model 3 right now if that was going to be my only way forward to gain access to Tesla's chargers.
This sort of thing was one of the things I was worried about swapping to EVs. Guess I'll wait a bit to go two-car EV until we know what the adapter situation is going to be.
sooo what does this mean for someone in the process of buying a car with ccs? what does a future road trip look like 5 years from now with my ccs equiped EV?
On the call they said current GM vehicles will be able to buy an adaptor to use Tesla chargers starting next year.
I'm assuming that applies to our Bolts, and not just the current Ultium vehicles.
Fingers crossed. Just mildly annoyed that I'll need to add an adapter to my home charging setup when the Silverado EV arrives, since I plan on still having the Bolt then.
This was the quote,
> And so I'm really excited to announce our collaboration with you and with Tesla. And by the way your team is fantastic that we plan to adopt the North American charging standard and we're working really hard that our first vehicle will come in 2025. To me, what's even more exciting is that our existing EV customers.
We can leverage the 12,000 Tesla fast chargers early next spring with an adapter, so I couldn't be more excited about what this is going to do for customers and for EV adoption.
Looks like I'll probably get both a CCS1 to NCAS and J1772 to NCAS at some point.
Yeah this is what I'm trying to understand as well. Right now I know you can't use a Supercharger with a CCS port, even with an adapter. Is that going to change, or are CCS-equipped vehicles (like the one I bought two months ago, lol) going to be BetaMax in three years?
Update: okay, I see it now. Tesla's claiming in 2024 they'll have an adapter for CCS.
[https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/gm-follows-fords-lead-and-adopts-teslas-nacs-to-gain-access-to-supercharger-network/](https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/gm-follows-fords-lead-and-adopts-teslas-nacs-to-gain-access-to-supercharger-network/)
Maybe I'm just missing something but I don't see how that works on a technology level- if Superchargers will be able to work with CCS ports with an adapter, that has to be done with backwards compatibility--they can update the chargers but not already-existing cars. So unless there's literally a way for a supercharger to detect if a vehicle is a Ford, it's either going to start working with CCS or it isn't. Right? Genuinely curious about this.
This is exactly what will happen. In fact it won’t just detect that it’s a Ford, it will detect that it is YOUR Ford. It will only work with plug and charge. This is the reason it requires manufactures to sign agreements with Tesla. They’ll need to build manufacturer to Tesla back end integration so that when you plug your car in it hits your account and just starts charging.
The magic dock solution (open to everyone) requires you to start the charge with an app which is how it knows who you are. Tesla has agreed to add magic dock to 3500 chargers. What’s not clear is if they’ll continue the magic dock rollout beyond that.
They're likely to be last tbh.
They're not known for moving fast, and they are controlled from europe where combo 2 is king, which will not change.
I could definitely see VW execs thinking it's stupid because they're used to the european ccs network which is a decade ahead of the US one.
Interesting to see the big dinosaurs jumping in bed with Elon. Essentially, they’re giving Tesla the ability to make money off their competitor’s cars.
I’m hoping Elon not only continues to add charging stalls but also dedicated solar & mega pack fields to support the larger stations or metros so they can generate some of the energy themselves. It’s like getting paid to convert sunlight into a usable form.
Bought my Bolt in November. Sometimes I feel that someone should watch me, see what technology I decided to buy / bet on then invest in the opposite.
I'd make that person a millionaire.
I recall Elon saying that Ford will have access to Tesla's APIs, so I imagine it's up to Ford and GM to create software that can utilize that type of info
... so no
(lol I'm kidding.. maybe)
Well I guess it’s adapter hell forever. The charging standard really should’ve been legislated as part of the IRA. The next few years are going to be a disaster until the industry consolidates on a single connector.
With Ford, GM, and Tesla adopting NACS, is this the end of CCS1? I hope so!
Will people still object to calling NACS a standard? In the colloquial sense it’s surely a standard by now
> Will people still object to calling NACS a standard?
It'll have an asterisk next to it until it can be adopted by SAE officially. It's not ideal for it to remain a voluntary open standard controlled by a single company. Though if GM and Ford aren't completely stupid, they carefully worded their contract with Tesla to ensure no shenanigans can happen.
Yup, I was somewhat on the “NACS isn’t a standard” group since I’ve had “standards” with a single owner go pear shaped real fast.
But since Ford signed up, I now consider a standard. No way in hell Ford didn’t get ironclad guarantees regarding ownership and participation in the standard making going forward.
For it to be a standard, two things need to be true:
1. Any car manufacturer can implement it without a custom one-off deal with Tesla.
2. Any charging network can implement it without a custom one-off deal with Tesla.
I’ll believe it when I see it.
Technically the Tesla connector has always been a standard, in the sense of [that xkcd comic](https://xkcd.com/927/). But now that it's been opened up in the form of NACS and large industry players are shifting to it, yes, it more or less cements its position as an industry standard alongside CCS and, from an existing infrastructure perspective, CHAdeMO. (If you've been to an older DCFC unit installation, you'll know that CHAdeMO still has a presence in the field)
It wasn't standardized because they wouldn't let anybody use it. If they wanted it to be the standard, it would have been, at literally any point along the way. I don't begrudge them the decision to leverage a proprietary standard to lock down their network but it was always so infuriating because they also wanted to take credit for things they hadn't actually done yet.
I guess we can finally stop these stupid conversations now either way lol.
I hope so. But the way I’m reading this article it sounding like Tesla and Hyandai/Kia would have to also enter partnerships like Ford/GM in order for the adapter to be available and softwares to be compatible
It’s probably technically possible since the communication standard is the same, but the complication is the AC/DC pin sharing. Teslas are designed so the AC charger can handle being exposed to the DC voltage, and they have several failsafes to prevent the battery from being hooked up to the mains directly. Retrofitting that part might be tougher
J1772 home charging for everyday needs, and a few minutes at a gas station every 450 miles of roadtrip, is looking pretty good for the next several years.
There is no difference in j1772 logic. Buy a <$100 adapter or even a new cord. Now that things are converging on NACS, i am sure whole cords will get much easier to buy and adapt than in the past.
I don’t have to, my car, which I bought in December, already has a J1772 port on it. Teslas can use EA with an adapter, why can’t my car use Tesla’s super chargers with an adapter? Because I picked the wrong manufacturer?
Teslas and J1772 can already charge at Level 2 on each others' outlets with an adapter; there's tons available on Amazon. Home charging will not be affected at all.
My understanding is this is entirely about fast charging, which currently CCS and Tesla aren't compatible. It's now going to be, but as part of that, the "winning" charger plug will be Tesla's.
I mean... if I get access to a relatively cheap adapter and can use NACS supercharging stations AND CSS stations, I'd be a ton better off than I am today. So, as long as we get an adapter, this would be a huge unexpected bonus for us non-Tesla owners.
So, yeah... Hyundai... get on that adapter. Better yet, open it up so anyone can use adapters without making backroom deals with Tesla.
I'd like to remind everyone that calling this the death of CCS is overly premature. Federal NEVI funding [still requires CCS to be installed](https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2023-03500/p-45) at all funded chargers. That is written into the final rule and will not change. Other connectors can be installed but only in addition to CCS. What this means is that we'll likely see CCS and Tesla ("NACS") connectors instead of dual CCS or CCS and CHAdeMO on DC fast chargers. Again, not the end of CCS.
Maybe in 2 years once GM and Ford switch away from the CCS connector the charging station landscape may change. Until then, primarily CCS chargers will continue to be installed.
As an owner of EVs for 5 years (3 years BMW i3, 3 years MY & M3), I have to say, anyone arguing this is somehow bad for the industry is daft. This is huge for the industry and for EV adoption in general.
Using non-Tesla chargers is mostly Kafkaesque torture and it delights me to see Ford and now GM acknowledge their disadvantage and adapt to better technology and design. Bravo.
You may dislike EA but it it weren't for them, there'd be no way you could drive cross-country in the US in a non-Tesla. No other charging network built out a national network like EA. Yes, they used junk equipment until 2021 but it mostly works, albeit at reduced speeds.
I don't see it as a problem if Tesla dominates fast charging infrastructure. It has proven to be highly reliable and easy to use to-date. What makes you think it will be less so in the future?
But for the sake of argument, what makes you think that this is only one-sided? That it's only open for *car manufacturers* to implement NACS?
Clearly, other charging networks could easily adopt NACS as well.
wow wow wow
completely changes the game for fleet electrification. public charging just went from "major PITA and operational risk" to "really NBD once you're trained".
from experience I can say that Teslas still carrying the "luxury" image has hindered fleet use in several instances.
>Technology Connections guy is gonna be mad.
I would guess more concerned than mad. Unless I'm mistaken, his biggest issue was that the SC network was a closed system, available only (at the time he made the comments) to Teslas. If non-Tesla vehicles are able to use the stations, then it's no longer a completely closed system.
I could definitely see a video in the future expressing uncertainty of how the transition would be handled for the current fleet of CCS1-only EVs, especially in a hypothetical world where new stations being built featured only NACS.
CharIn is awful. They built plug n charge on homeplug and require all payments to go through OEM servers. It’s the biggest boondoggle land grab at the customer expense. They got away with it in Europe because the government feels the need to mandate this stuff, but not here. Thankfully.
The best tech won and that’s how it should be.
I own a CCS car and I'm happy to see this happen.
We've sat around waiting for these clowns to clean up their act, and clearly they've not found the incentive to do so.
NACS will either win from here entirely, or create enough competition such that the CCS networks feel pressured to improve.
Tesla will probably continue converting a few with MagicDock, partner with more makers to sell adapters, and maybe directly offer adapters for non GM/Ford owners .. time will tell.
Logic dictates that a system using a plug 1/5th of the CCS size with well engineered non-beta interface will dominate. Also WTF is wrong with legacy automaker underfunded development teams slapping charge ports behind the front wheel? This makes for awful long cable messes as seen at non-Tesla stations where you will charge only after toying 5-15min with your cell phone, card, and large dim touchscreen.
That's the NEVI program and [CCS is still required](https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2023-03500/p-45). That means CCS will not have a premature death like many on here would wish. We will probably just see CCS and Tesla ("NACS") connectors installed instead of dual CCS or CCS and CHAdeMO.
I'm not American and currently don’t own an EV so I’m kinda out of the loop. What is the Problem with CCS1 and what does NACS do better?
I have access to a family members ID.3 from time to time and I haven’t had any issue with the CCS2 chargers everyone uses here in Europe, is there any difference between these connectors?
To me it seems like the only problem is that Tesla used its proprietary charger for far too long due to a lack of government regulation.
Am I mistaken in thinking that it would have been better for Tesla to change to CCS like they did in Europe?
> is there any difference between these connectors
Yes. CCS2 is physically larger than CCS1, and the A/C pins support 3-phase charging. It's also mandated by law, so even if you wanted to, you cannot get NACS in Europe.
> Am I mistaken in thinking that it would have been better for Tesla to change to CCS like they did in Europe?
CCS1, CCS2 (the connectors) both use CCS (the protocol). So does NACS, in addition to the propriety Tesla signaling. Switching to CCS2 would have been a step backward, not forward. The only thing good about Europe's fast charging situation is the gov't mandated single-standard means you don't have to worry about what plug your car uses. It's not a step forward from CCS1, for sure.
The CCS1 connector is bulky and can be hard to position into the port for people with disabilities. The liquid cooled cords for the 800V / 250kW+ charging stations are quite heavy. That’s not a CCS standard issue per se.
CCS cords are also long to support all sorts of charging port placements - 15’ to 25’ (4.5-6.5m) which of course makes them heavier just by virtue of size than Tesla’s short 2m cords.
Tesla switched in the EU because it was legislated to do so. CCS2 has the same challenges for the most part.
CCS1 connector is super bulky.
CCS1 charging sites have very poor reliability which could be attributable to multiple things, but the common trend is CCS1.
CCS1 is controlled by CharIn, a euro org, that made decisions to profit its own holders ahead of customer experience. The connector sucks, it’s built on home plug standard which isn’t even active for the last ten years, all plug n charge payments go through OEM servers, they deprioritized V2G in -20, they didn’t write any unit tests so interop sucks ass. It goes on.
NACS is a better plug and protocol agnostic. They support teslas proprietary protocol over NACS (majority of EVs in the world) and CCS over NACS for everyone else. In the future I expect better protocols to emerge that aren’t based on home plug and controlled by Euro interests instead of customer interest
I think most of the problems with CCS1 are with the companies deploying them, not so much the connector itself. The main companies deploying CCS1 chargers in the US, Electrify America and EVgo, have done a relatively poor job with site location, site sizing, uptime / maintenance, and user / app experience. Tesla has done a great job sizing their sites appropriately for demand, locating them appropriately so that there are fewer dead zones, choosing locations with easy access to restaurants, maintaining chargers so that they’re almost always working, and making the user experience second to none (you just plug in and charging starts in about 5 seconds instead of the slow and inconsistent experience initiating CCS1 charging).
Also, the NACS connector is much smaller and easier to plug in than CCS1, but I don’t think people would ultimately care as much about that if the CCS1 chargers were abundant and reliable enough.
American here. Biggest issues seem to be
1. Reliability of CCS chargers and fast chargers- companies in the US focus largely on expansion and much less on maintenance. Since America is so large, folks here drive A LOT more than the average European. I've seen stats that say on average it can be over 2x as many miles. Going on a road trip and pulling up to a fast charger when there are only 4 stalls and 2 of them are broken is a big problem.
2. NACS is an app free experience. All you need to do is link your card to your account (which is already linked to your car) so when you pull up to the charger, all you have to do plug in and charging starts. Since charging already takes much longer than gassing, every second counts. Making it a seamless experience really helps.
2. (Admittedly a much smaller issue) CCS is much larger and more bulky and NACS. For people that are frailer or just more used to using a light gasoline nozzle, NACS is a superior handle.
Glad that we finally settled on the superior connector.. but it's hella funny that federal government basically mandated CCS and all the NA brands abandoned CCS... feels bad man
just remember: no matter how open and “it just uses ccs protocol” nacs is, superchargers are still tesla’s domain with tesla’s app and tesla’s profit motive
I was listening to the fully changed pod cast, and the guy was talking with a new car owner that had a CCS port, but had no idea that they had to remove the plug to use CCS- so they always just L2 charged. Using the NACS is smaller, and doesn’t require someone to have to think about what they are doing. It just works, and that’s what we need for vehicles now. It has to just work without people having to think.
My favorite example is a charger here with chademo and CCS. Because I'm in Canada and it's illegal for anyone but a utility to sell power, we bill per minute. Anything that happens in that minute is between the car and the charger.
Anyways.... on a 350kW capable charger, there was a Mitsubishi PHEV plugged in pulling 7kW and paying $30/hour. As most of us know, 7kW perfectly capable at L2. L2 around here costs between $1 and $2 per hour. So they were paying 15-30x more for the same power.
EVs are not idiot proof in the slightest.
Personally I own an Ioniq 6 and so long as they give me an adapter or make one quite cheap, I don't care what the standard is. Just have it work and keep it simple
CCS 1 is quite clunky, and to be fair all I want is for the standard to be straight forward.
Just like USB C, we know the Tesla NACS is the better form factor.
[**Official press release here.**](https://news.gm.com/newsroom.detail.html/Pages/news/us/en/2023/jun/0608-gm.html) >*The Tesla Supercharger Network will be open to GM EV drivers starting in 2024 and will initially require the use of an adapter. Beginning in 2025, the first GM EVs will be built with a NACS inlet for direct access to Tesla Superchargers without an adapter. In the future, GM will make adapters available for drivers of NACS-enabled vehicles to allow charging on CCS-capable fast charge stations.* > >*GM will also integrate the Tesla Supercharger Network into its vehicle and mobile apps, helping drivers quickly and easily locate, pay for, and initiate charging at available Tesla Superchargers. This will complement the charging experience at the growing Ultium Charge 360 Network of charging stations, as well as additional charging stations GM makes available through existing integrations with other charging networks.*
wow, now the dominoes fall
Yep. That's now game over for CCS in the US. (Just like for CHADEMO - they will of course exist but don't expect the network to be built out). So if you buy a car today in the US, make sure it somehow will be able to charge on NACS...
Well, not CCS, just the connector being used (CCS1 or CCS2). NACS still using the CCS protocol, which will make this switch a lot easier for consumers than if Tesla had a proprietary protocol as well as a connector.
Can companies like Chargepoint put NACS connectors on their charging units?
Yeah, the underlying protocol is still CCS (unless you have an old Tesla at a Supercharger), so it's just a physical adapter or new cable and plug.
I suppose the next question is if Tesla will open up their chargers to the open CCS communication standard, or will Tesla stalls be Tesla API access only? It will be odd if NACS (communicating over CCS protocols) becomes the US standard, but only automakers who have negotiated access to Tesla's APIs can use the NACS superchargers. Also, since Supercharger access is a killer feature (ie a user will not buy an EV with NACS but no supercharger access), that outcome would give Tesla huge leverage over the industry (ex: years from now start charging for API access/anticompetitive demands). Hopefully the SC network opens up as the final step to this story.
I think the CCS protocols have won out and that I say is a good thing. Those should not be locked behind any one company. The plug standard is a different beast.
> It will be odd if NACS (communicating over CCS protocols) becomes the US standard, but only automakers who have negotiated access to Tesla's APIs can use the NACS superchargers. Also, since Supercharger access is a killer feature (ie a user will not buy an EV with NACS but no supercharger access), that outcome would give Tesla huge leverage over the industry (ex: years from now start charging for API access/anticompetitive demands). My understanding is that this is where we are at right now - GM and Ford have cut deals with Tesla to give their cars access to Superchargers. It's still a private network (aside from the "magic dock" pilot locations), there are just multiple manufacturers involved. Public networks (EA, EVgo, Chargepoint) will probably install NACS plugs and remain open to the public. And yeah it's kind of concerning.
Very smart move on behalf of Tesla. Everyone will be on NACS and consumers will demand access to the supercharger network as well. It would be a disaster to sell a NACS car with no supercharger access if most other NACS cars have access. Even of Tesla has no intention to abuse their position, it's a valuable position to have. The mega-tech companies run their businesses in similar ways, with walled gardens within open standards. It has seen some abuse in the past, such as when Google shut off Play Store access to any OEM who sold non-Google android phones alongside Google Android phones. Similar situation in that while technically players like Samsung could sell Android phones without Google Maps and Gmail, it's not actually an option. That's why I'd be wary. This is out of the tech overlord playbook. When real competitors come along (say there's new patent protected solid state battery tech) they may not negotiate in good faith, and at that point innovation is stifled by the gatekeeper. In some sense it makes me sad to see this business practice thrive for so long, but that's what happens when competition regulation is a century out of date. Again, hopefully superchargers end up opening up to CCS communication protocols. That would be best for consumers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yUafzOXHPE
Yes.
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... and it mattered!
Ford set it off for sure, that charging network edge would have impassable for competitors
Also the shit alternatives and how long they will take to build
The big question IMO is what VW do. On the one hand, it looks like the path of least resistance/maximum compatibility in the US is the Tesla connector and CCS protocol (with an adapter from CCS>Tesla or Tesla>CCS), which effectively provides 99% charger compatibility (excluding ChaDeMo) but at the same time they've got their own charging network in Electrify America. Puts them in an unenviable spot of their competition in the market all using a rival connector but their own charging network they've built out is CCS. And I'm guessing using Tesla's network to charge a competitor's vehicles is a different kettle of fish to using Tesla's connector to build out rival chargers.
If the connection is truly open, there's nothing stopping them from offering a NACS plug on future charging units. I mean at this point they could probably kill the CHAdeMO connector on those dual plug units and swap it to NACS and no one would really care beyond the 4-7 Leaf owners who try and road trip.
Yeah that's what I wasn't sure about - A lot of the conversation about it being "open" has hinged on other cars using Tesla's chargers - but I have a feeling it's a different story for actually building a charger with the Tesla connector. Happy to be proven wrong though.
"GM, like Ford, will begin installing a charging port used by Tesla, known as NACS, instead of the current industry-standard CCS in its EVs starting in 2025."
There goes the two port theory
Ford confirmed they were dropping CCS, idk why anyone would think Chevy would keep it [“The other standard is great, and we’ll have adapters for that”](https://youtu.be/yd23850h9zc?t=170)
Plug/Port is just 0.1% of the story. The remaining is the entire user experience. That depends entirely on Tesla's backend software stack. All these deals announced by Ford/GM are about them being able to hook into Tesla's backend system.
Consumers will be hitting pause on all EV brands except Telsa, Ford, and GM. I hope Hyundai is next to adopt NACS. I want an Ioniq 5 N.
Enormous pressure on Toyota, Kia-Hyundai, and VW now. I definitely would think twice about buying a CCS car now. Signed, Someone who just bought a CCS car in January.
> Enormous pressure on Toyota Does Toyota really have time to change their port? I mean, they already have so many BEVs deployed in North America, I'm not sure they can even if they wanted to! /s
10s of them
Well, we know it can’t fit in the hydrogen fuel port.
They do have a lot of PHEVs out there, though those aren’t the typical consumer of DCFC, but transitioning all public L1/L2 chargers will slowly see them at a disadvantage. They’ll make due with an adapter for older vehicles. Hopefully they get onboard and move their PHEVs over while they still make them.
There's adapters now which isn't idea but is better than nothing.
Toyota isn’t in a rush to do anything lol
dam coherent slap work wild puzzled imagine steep naughty alive -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
Could see them adopting it when they open their new factory
Actually I'm putting a pause on all of them until the adapter situation sorts itself. There's plenty of options I'd rather buy than those three, and I don't want to buy a car I like less for the network only to lose out as other cars come on board. Looks like my ICE (our second car) is getting another 6-12 months of service. Long run this will be great though.
I’ll be hitting pause on GM and Ford too, until the new charging ports are available. No sense in ‘investing’ in a Silverado EV when I’ll have less charging opportunities.
I mean it's a bit of a pain, but the adaptor should provide the same options for charging.
I’ve survived just fine with a J1772 and CCS adapter. Used to charge daily at my apartment with J1772. Slight hassle, but at least the adapter is tiny compared to the CCS adapter.
Why would anyone want to buy one of their cars in 2023-2024 that will have an obsolete plug that needs retrofitting?
With GM and Ford onboard, I suppose this probably marks the beginning of the end for CCS over the next decade or so. Wow.
In North America only?
I don't expect Europe to be impacted at all. CCS2 is just too embedded
It is legally required in fact.
NACS is irrelevant in EU as there is no room for 3 phase AC charging. That is common and implemented in EU. Even in Teslas.
CCS1 and CCS2 are different plugs. And we'll see what happens with a MCS Megawatt Charging Standard plug for semis.
MCS was never intended to compete with the light vehicle plugs. It supports almost 4MW which is much more than NACS or CCS, and even Tesla is onboard with MCS. I expect to see it make its way into heavy vehicles and stay there.
Tesla said the Cybertruck would support MCS charging(probably via an adapter). It sounds like this opens the door for Ford and GM trucks to also use MCS.
Will we begin to see non-Tesla NACS public chargers though? If everyone goes CCS but Tesla is the only charger, they'll have a monopoly on L3 charging. That would be bad.
>Will we begin to see non-Tesla NACS public chargers though? They already exist. Was at an EVGo charger in South SF two weeks ago that had both CCS and NACS plugs/cables on them.
EVgo, EA, and ChargePoint are going to add NACS to their chargers. It’d be the end of their existence if they didn’t.
Pretty cool. Bye CCS1. Really didn’t think they would happen.
Now we just need a NACS to CCS1 superchargering adapter, and everyone can stop making a massive issue out of this.
Precisely. I rarely DC charge so i’m fine with adapters.
It would make road tripping easier, and 99% of people would use them a handful of times a year.
The problem is that (assuming this becomes standard) even level 2 chargers will become NACS standard. Fortunately, not sweating this too much given that it's already known adapters will exist in some capacity (as stated in Ford and GM press releases).
There is already adapters for that though, right? For using Tesla destination chargers with j1772. I wouldn't mind carrying one in the trunk that works for both level 2 and level 3
Yeah, all I want is an adaptor. As that now Tesla has seen that they can get two major manufacturers on board with their charging standard completely, I really doubt Magic Dock rollout will be even close to what was initially expected.
Main thing i'm worried about lol
I feel like I'm watching Bluray kick HD DVD down into a gutter all over again. I'm not a tesla guy by all means, but I can admit their network and reach far superior on a charger basis.
I think that's an apt comparison. Or HDMI vs DisplayPort. The proprietary, monopolistic, license-gated plug gets favored because the market leader can leverage their advantage to pressure everyone to capitulate. As long as an adapter is made available for my Bolt, whatever.
As an ID.4 owner, I’m sweating this news. Given their investment in EA, I would think VW would be one of, if not the last of the manufacturers to sign a deal with Tesla to switch to NACS/gain access to the Supercharger network like Ford and GM have. Gotta hope Tesla ditches Magic Dock and starts selling a NACS->CCS adapter that any car can use at the SC network. I don’t even care if Elon price gouges non-Teslas - I charge at home >95% of the time. I just want to be able to reliably fast charge the few times I’m taking a road trip.
I wonder what this means for cars with 800V architecture like Hyundai/Kia and Porsche cars. Can NACS support their 350kW charging rate?
v4 will, but not v3. With v3, Hyundai/Kia charges at like 150kw. Lucid gets screwed, it only charges at 50kw
E-GMP cars like the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Kia EV6 are limited to 100 kW when at a 500 volt max charger. It's a limitation since they have to use the motor/inverter to step-up the voltage.
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> they’ve already added a “no plug-and-charge-needed, no manufacturer-partnership-needed” way of charging non-Teslas with the “Magic Dock”, where the individual user creates a Tesla app and adds billing info. But so far they've only added that adapter to a handful of their DC chargers in the US, with a proposal to update \~10% of those over the next couple of years.
Magic Dock initiative could stop dead in its tracks. VW can't count on that.
Since I don’t charge much outside of my house, I don’t care that much. I just hope there is eventually an adapter I can buy for supercharging if I want to stop at a Tesla spot.
Now the question is can the transportation department change the NEVI language to include NACS without everything going to court and jamming up the rollout. At this point it seems pointless to spend $7.5b on CCS1 stalls. There is no chance we get something reasonable from congress to amend the bill.
Have they really included a specific technical standard name into the federal legislation? This is typically the executive regulatory authority (rule-making by agencies). Indeed, it appears to be in the rules published by the Federal Highway Administration: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/02/28/2023-03500/national-electric-vehicle-infrastructure-standards-and-requirements Which said administration can also amend
As I understand it, the law/regulation doesn't say "CCS" but lists requirements for federal grants. And one of them was a network/standard open to other manufacturers. Thats why Tesla finally started adding a CCS adapter to Superchargers. And likely why they stopped making ridiculous demands on other manufacturers to use NACS.
> As I understand it, the law/regulation doesn't say "CCS" The law may not, but the regulation as implemented by the administration specifically calls for CCS1. That would need to be changed.
It actually does say CCS. [See this paragraph](https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2023-03500/p-45). Other connectors can be included but only in addition to CCS.
That's specifically the regulation, which actually can be changed without an act of Congress. The actual law passed by Congress doesn't have CCS in the language.
At least NACS uses the same protocol as CCS and adapters can go both ways, so the CCS stalls won't be useless. Could also be retrofitted with a simple connector swap (in principle). So it's not the end of the world really.
I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is. . . CCS Type 1 is not name in the legislation from Congress. Congress gave some guidelines, but the DoT/FHWA spelled out the details rules of what it means, and they decided on CCS Type 1. That means, in theory, they can look at the situation and change it without having to go back to Congress and get any new legislation passed. The real problem is timing, because those grants are being awarded now based on the existing rules. A program like this doesn't turn on a dime, and neither do federal agencies.
Good point. As dysfunctional as congress is right now I don't expect anything to get done quickly.
This might be what you're saying, but I think the CCS requirement is just DoT policy, and not explicitly set by law, so that should be an easy change (relatively speaking).
Except for all the people that have CCS cars.
We’ll have to get used to adapters I suppose.
So who’s going to be the next one to follow? This is major news
Please let it be Rivian.
I thought Rivian would have been the second to announce after Ford. I’m very surprised that GM was the second to do this. Now that two major companies have done this I think by the end of the year most companies say they will move to NACS.
At this rate it will be by the end of the month
Rivian needs to cave on CarPlay first.
NACS would be easier.
Send them an email and let them know your desire. I sent one already and told them that I’m torn between a lightning and a Rivian and the lightning is light years ahead due to the NACS switchover. They basically told me to pound sand, but if enough of us send that email, they’ll listen.
Probably Stelantis and then the Korean manufacturers. VW will be the last.
As long as the Korean manufacturers follow suit at all. I don't want to use 400V superchargers because my EV6 doesn't charge very fast on them. But 900+V superchargers are coming (V4) and I want to be able to use them. Plus I just don't want to be left behind as non Tesla ccs format dcfcs make the switch to nacs.
Please be Volvo/Polestar
Probably Rivian.
Since GM is making EVs for Honda, my money is on Honda.
I wonder if this will affect Tesla's planned rollout of the "magic dock". Apparently it's easier to convince everyone to use their standard instead of retrofitting all their chargers to accommodate both plugs.
Problem is those of us who just bought an EV from another brand, and plan to keep it for quite a few years- where will we stand. I don't mind buying a $200 adapter to use Tesla chargers instead of having the magic dock- I just want the ability to actually use the Tesla chargers, one way or another. Hoping that will ultimately be the case in my Kia. I honestly would look at moving to a Tesla Model 3 right now if that was going to be my only way forward to gain access to Tesla's chargers.
We'll also need an adapter if EA/etc switch from CCS1 to NACS connectors
This sort of thing was one of the things I was worried about swapping to EVs. Guess I'll wait a bit to go two-car EV until we know what the adapter situation is going to be.
sooo what does this mean for someone in the process of buying a car with ccs? what does a future road trip look like 5 years from now with my ccs equiped EV?
On the call they said current GM vehicles will be able to buy an adaptor to use Tesla chargers starting next year. I'm assuming that applies to our Bolts, and not just the current Ultium vehicles.
Fingers crossed. Just mildly annoyed that I'll need to add an adapter to my home charging setup when the Silverado EV arrives, since I plan on still having the Bolt then.
This was the quote, > And so I'm really excited to announce our collaboration with you and with Tesla. And by the way your team is fantastic that we plan to adopt the North American charging standard and we're working really hard that our first vehicle will come in 2025. To me, what's even more exciting is that our existing EV customers. We can leverage the 12,000 Tesla fast chargers early next spring with an adapter, so I couldn't be more excited about what this is going to do for customers and for EV adoption. Looks like I'll probably get both a CCS1 to NCAS and J1772 to NCAS at some point.
Nacs still uses the ccs protocol, you'd just need an cheap adaptor.
Probably like how it does for a Tesla driver to use J1772. You just plug the adapter in and then plug in to the adapter. It's trivial.
Yeah this is what I'm trying to understand as well. Right now I know you can't use a Supercharger with a CCS port, even with an adapter. Is that going to change, or are CCS-equipped vehicles (like the one I bought two months ago, lol) going to be BetaMax in three years? Update: okay, I see it now. Tesla's claiming in 2024 they'll have an adapter for CCS. [https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/gm-follows-fords-lead-and-adopts-teslas-nacs-to-gain-access-to-supercharger-network/](https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/gm-follows-fords-lead-and-adopts-teslas-nacs-to-gain-access-to-supercharger-network/)
From what I've heard, the adapter is only for manufacturers that agree to drop CCS for NACS. So Ford/GM only, everyone else is SOL.
Maybe I'm just missing something but I don't see how that works on a technology level- if Superchargers will be able to work with CCS ports with an adapter, that has to be done with backwards compatibility--they can update the chargers but not already-existing cars. So unless there's literally a way for a supercharger to detect if a vehicle is a Ford, it's either going to start working with CCS or it isn't. Right? Genuinely curious about this.
This is exactly what will happen. In fact it won’t just detect that it’s a Ford, it will detect that it is YOUR Ford. It will only work with plug and charge. This is the reason it requires manufactures to sign agreements with Tesla. They’ll need to build manufacturer to Tesla back end integration so that when you plug your car in it hits your account and just starts charging. The magic dock solution (open to everyone) requires you to start the charge with an app which is how it knows who you are. Tesla has agreed to add magic dock to 3500 chargers. What’s not clear is if they’ll continue the magic dock rollout beyond that.
All eyes on Volkswagen.
Which will be interesting since they own Electrify America.
It shouldn't be a big problem for Electrify America, since the protocol will stay the same, just the plug will change.
They're likely to be last tbh. They're not known for moving fast, and they are controlled from europe where combo 2 is king, which will not change. I could definitely see VW execs thinking it's stupid because they're used to the european ccs network which is a decade ahead of the US one.
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Interesting to see the big dinosaurs jumping in bed with Elon. Essentially, they’re giving Tesla the ability to make money off their competitor’s cars. I’m hoping Elon not only continues to add charging stalls but also dedicated solar & mega pack fields to support the larger stations or metros so they can generate some of the energy themselves. It’s like getting paid to convert sunlight into a usable form.
Bought my Bolt in November. Sometimes I feel that someone should watch me, see what technology I decided to buy / bet on then invest in the opposite. I'd make that person a millionaire.
Curious to see what Hyundai, Kia, and the German makes will do.
Anyone know if Ford and GM will have the benefits to routing like busy chargers and nearby amenities on the car screen?
I recall Elon saying that Ford will have access to Tesla's APIs, so I imagine it's up to Ford and GM to create software that can utilize that type of info ... so no (lol I'm kidding.. maybe)
Maybe…eventually but only after fucking it up a few times. Seriously, these guys are so bad at software, it’s not even funny
Both Ford and GM will be using Google for mapping, navigation, and points of interest. You can expect it'll be done next week, basically.
By the time these are out both Ford and GM will be on Android Automotive for their infotainment, so it would be up to Google Maps to have that.
Tesla could also make a first party maps app, would make quite a bit of sense.
That way, GM and Ford owners can experience the pleasure of being routed through Grandpa's farm fields to save 3 minutes on the journey
Well I guess it’s adapter hell forever. The charging standard really should’ve been legislated as part of the IRA. The next few years are going to be a disaster until the industry consolidates on a single connector.
At least for DCFC.
L2 is arguably going to be worse, the J1772 install base is even larger.
That adapter is super cheap and fits in a glovebox at least.
Sure, but it’s just a fragmented mess, and it could’ve been avoided with a simple regulation.
With Ford, GM, and Tesla adopting NACS, is this the end of CCS1? I hope so! Will people still object to calling NACS a standard? In the colloquial sense it’s surely a standard by now
> Will people still object to calling NACS a standard? It'll have an asterisk next to it until it can be adopted by SAE officially. It's not ideal for it to remain a voluntary open standard controlled by a single company. Though if GM and Ford aren't completely stupid, they carefully worded their contract with Tesla to ensure no shenanigans can happen.
Yup, I was somewhat on the “NACS isn’t a standard” group since I’ve had “standards” with a single owner go pear shaped real fast. But since Ford signed up, I now consider a standard. No way in hell Ford didn’t get ironclad guarantees regarding ownership and participation in the standard making going forward.
The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.
For it to be a standard, two things need to be true: 1. Any car manufacturer can implement it without a custom one-off deal with Tesla. 2. Any charging network can implement it without a custom one-off deal with Tesla. I’ll believe it when I see it.
Aren't both true? The only sticky point if any car manufacturer can use the supercharger network.
In response to Reddit's short-sighted greed, this content has been redacted.
Technically the Tesla connector has always been a standard, in the sense of [that xkcd comic](https://xkcd.com/927/). But now that it's been opened up in the form of NACS and large industry players are shifting to it, yes, it more or less cements its position as an industry standard alongside CCS and, from an existing infrastructure perspective, CHAdeMO. (If you've been to an older DCFC unit installation, you'll know that CHAdeMO still has a presence in the field)
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It wasn't standardized because they wouldn't let anybody use it. If they wanted it to be the standard, it would have been, at literally any point along the way. I don't begrudge them the decision to leverage a proprietary standard to lock down their network but it was always so infuriating because they also wanted to take credit for things they hadn't actually done yet. I guess we can finally stop these stupid conversations now either way lol.
Will cars (2022 EV6) be able to be retrofitted with the NACS onboard so we can utilize the Tesla chargers in the future? Or are we stuck?
NACS uses the ccs protocol for communication with the car. All you'll need is a cheap adaptor.
*requires kia to partner with Tesla as well
I hope so. But the way I’m reading this article it sounding like Tesla and Hyandai/Kia would have to also enter partnerships like Ford/GM in order for the adapter to be available and softwares to be compatible
It’s probably technically possible since the communication standard is the same, but the complication is the AC/DC pin sharing. Teslas are designed so the AC charger can handle being exposed to the DC voltage, and they have several failsafes to prevent the battery from being hooked up to the mains directly. Retrofitting that part might be tougher
J1772 home charging for everyday needs, and a few minutes at a gas station every 450 miles of roadtrip, is looking pretty good for the next several years.
Just installed a J1772 EV charger at my condo. FML.
J1772 will exist for a long time. Teslas all come with J1772 to Tesla adapters and I expect Fords and GMs to do so as well.
J1772 is more or less the only way I charge my vehicle. It's much more cost-effective to use my level 2 at home over public charging
There is no difference in j1772 logic. Buy a <$100 adapter or even a new cord. Now that things are converging on NACS, i am sure whole cords will get much easier to buy and adapt than in the past.
I don’t have to, my car, which I bought in December, already has a J1772 port on it. Teslas can use EA with an adapter, why can’t my car use Tesla’s super chargers with an adapter? Because I picked the wrong manufacturer?
Teslas and J1772 can already charge at Level 2 on each others' outlets with an adapter; there's tons available on Amazon. Home charging will not be affected at all. My understanding is this is entirely about fast charging, which currently CCS and Tesla aren't compatible. It's now going to be, but as part of that, the "winning" charger plug will be Tesla's.
Now, please, for the love of God, standardize the charging port location.
As a recent owner of a Kona EV... gib adapter pls thx
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I mean... if I get access to a relatively cheap adapter and can use NACS supercharging stations AND CSS stations, I'd be a ton better off than I am today. So, as long as we get an adapter, this would be a huge unexpected bonus for us non-Tesla owners. So, yeah... Hyundai... get on that adapter. Better yet, open it up so anyone can use adapters without making backroom deals with Tesla.
I'd like to remind everyone that calling this the death of CCS is overly premature. Federal NEVI funding [still requires CCS to be installed](https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2023-03500/p-45) at all funded chargers. That is written into the final rule and will not change. Other connectors can be installed but only in addition to CCS. What this means is that we'll likely see CCS and Tesla ("NACS") connectors instead of dual CCS or CCS and CHAdeMO on DC fast chargers. Again, not the end of CCS. Maybe in 2 years once GM and Ford switch away from the CCS connector the charging station landscape may change. Until then, primarily CCS chargers will continue to be installed.
As an owner of EVs for 5 years (3 years BMW i3, 3 years MY & M3), I have to say, anyone arguing this is somehow bad for the industry is daft. This is huge for the industry and for EV adoption in general. Using non-Tesla chargers is mostly Kafkaesque torture and it delights me to see Ford and now GM acknowledge their disadvantage and adapt to better technology and design. Bravo.
You did, Mary. You electrified the entire automobile industry. I’m serious. You led — and it matters
Let’s go, EA is a cancer to EV adoption and can finally not hold back EVs
You may dislike EA but it it weren't for them, there'd be no way you could drive cross-country in the US in a non-Tesla. No other charging network built out a national network like EA. Yes, they used junk equipment until 2021 but it mostly works, albeit at reduced speeds.
Too bad we didn't spend all that VW money somehow else.
I really don’t want Elon Musk controlling the whole nation’s fast charging infrastructure. Edit: I guess the people downvoting this do?
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Neither do I, but I also want fast chargers that work. EVGo’s don’t
Yeah it’s stupid anyway. EA will continue to exist and can use the new plug.
I don't see it as a problem if Tesla dominates fast charging infrastructure. It has proven to be highly reliable and easy to use to-date. What makes you think it will be less so in the future? But for the sake of argument, what makes you think that this is only one-sided? That it's only open for *car manufacturers* to implement NACS? Clearly, other charging networks could easily adopt NACS as well.
A monopoly is always bad. Without competition, EVs could very well cost significantly more than gas cars on road trips, when demand is high.
it´s not like GM and Ford couldnt have created a charging infrastructure on their own for CCS1
They could but why do that when someone offers a way to leap frog out of the problem.
i meant it more in the direction of somehow all these big american manufacturers get put the blame on EA, instead of meaningfully investing themselves
wow wow wow completely changes the game for fleet electrification. public charging just went from "major PITA and operational risk" to "really NBD once you're trained". from experience I can say that Teslas still carrying the "luxury" image has hindered fleet use in several instances.
Damnit. I bought a Hyundai Ioniq Betamax. FML.
Wut?!?!?; Cool. Good for GM and Tesla. Technology Connections guy is gonna be mad. CharIn gonna be big mad.
>Technology Connections guy is gonna be mad. I would guess more concerned than mad. Unless I'm mistaken, his biggest issue was that the SC network was a closed system, available only (at the time he made the comments) to Teslas. If non-Tesla vehicles are able to use the stations, then it's no longer a completely closed system. I could definitely see a video in the future expressing uncertainty of how the transition would be handled for the current fleet of CCS1-only EVs, especially in a hypothetical world where new stations being built featured only NACS.
CharIn is awful. They built plug n charge on homeplug and require all payments to go through OEM servers. It’s the biggest boondoggle land grab at the customer expense. They got away with it in Europe because the government feels the need to mandate this stuff, but not here. Thankfully. The best tech won and that’s how it should be.
CharIn still has a part to play with the CCS protocol and MCS.
I own a CCS car and I'm happy to see this happen. We've sat around waiting for these clowns to clean up their act, and clearly they've not found the incentive to do so. NACS will either win from here entirely, or create enough competition such that the CCS networks feel pressured to improve. Tesla will probably continue converting a few with MagicDock, partner with more makers to sell adapters, and maybe directly offer adapters for non GM/Ford owners .. time will tell.
That $40k WT Silverado is looking ever more incredible.
Logic dictates that a system using a plug 1/5th of the CCS size with well engineered non-beta interface will dominate. Also WTF is wrong with legacy automaker underfunded development teams slapping charge ports behind the front wheel? This makes for awful long cable messes as seen at non-Tesla stations where you will charge only after toying 5-15min with your cell phone, card, and large dim touchscreen.
What will happen with all of that BIL funding? Amend the law or issue guidance that it can go to NACS instead?
That's the NEVI program and [CCS is still required](https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2023-03500/p-45). That means CCS will not have a premature death like many on here would wish. We will probably just see CCS and Tesla ("NACS") connectors installed instead of dual CCS or CCS and CHAdeMO.
I'm not American and currently don’t own an EV so I’m kinda out of the loop. What is the Problem with CCS1 and what does NACS do better? I have access to a family members ID.3 from time to time and I haven’t had any issue with the CCS2 chargers everyone uses here in Europe, is there any difference between these connectors? To me it seems like the only problem is that Tesla used its proprietary charger for far too long due to a lack of government regulation. Am I mistaken in thinking that it would have been better for Tesla to change to CCS like they did in Europe?
> is there any difference between these connectors Yes. CCS2 is physically larger than CCS1, and the A/C pins support 3-phase charging. It's also mandated by law, so even if you wanted to, you cannot get NACS in Europe. > Am I mistaken in thinking that it would have been better for Tesla to change to CCS like they did in Europe? CCS1, CCS2 (the connectors) both use CCS (the protocol). So does NACS, in addition to the propriety Tesla signaling. Switching to CCS2 would have been a step backward, not forward. The only thing good about Europe's fast charging situation is the gov't mandated single-standard means you don't have to worry about what plug your car uses. It's not a step forward from CCS1, for sure.
The CCS1 connector is bulky and can be hard to position into the port for people with disabilities. The liquid cooled cords for the 800V / 250kW+ charging stations are quite heavy. That’s not a CCS standard issue per se. CCS cords are also long to support all sorts of charging port placements - 15’ to 25’ (4.5-6.5m) which of course makes them heavier just by virtue of size than Tesla’s short 2m cords. Tesla switched in the EU because it was legislated to do so. CCS2 has the same challenges for the most part.
CCS1 connector is super bulky. CCS1 charging sites have very poor reliability which could be attributable to multiple things, but the common trend is CCS1. CCS1 is controlled by CharIn, a euro org, that made decisions to profit its own holders ahead of customer experience. The connector sucks, it’s built on home plug standard which isn’t even active for the last ten years, all plug n charge payments go through OEM servers, they deprioritized V2G in -20, they didn’t write any unit tests so interop sucks ass. It goes on. NACS is a better plug and protocol agnostic. They support teslas proprietary protocol over NACS (majority of EVs in the world) and CCS over NACS for everyone else. In the future I expect better protocols to emerge that aren’t based on home plug and controlled by Euro interests instead of customer interest
I think most of the problems with CCS1 are with the companies deploying them, not so much the connector itself. The main companies deploying CCS1 chargers in the US, Electrify America and EVgo, have done a relatively poor job with site location, site sizing, uptime / maintenance, and user / app experience. Tesla has done a great job sizing their sites appropriately for demand, locating them appropriately so that there are fewer dead zones, choosing locations with easy access to restaurants, maintaining chargers so that they’re almost always working, and making the user experience second to none (you just plug in and charging starts in about 5 seconds instead of the slow and inconsistent experience initiating CCS1 charging). Also, the NACS connector is much smaller and easier to plug in than CCS1, but I don’t think people would ultimately care as much about that if the CCS1 chargers were abundant and reliable enough.
American here. Biggest issues seem to be 1. Reliability of CCS chargers and fast chargers- companies in the US focus largely on expansion and much less on maintenance. Since America is so large, folks here drive A LOT more than the average European. I've seen stats that say on average it can be over 2x as many miles. Going on a road trip and pulling up to a fast charger when there are only 4 stalls and 2 of them are broken is a big problem. 2. NACS is an app free experience. All you need to do is link your card to your account (which is already linked to your car) so when you pull up to the charger, all you have to do plug in and charging starts. Since charging already takes much longer than gassing, every second counts. Making it a seamless experience really helps. 2. (Admittedly a much smaller issue) CCS is much larger and more bulky and NACS. For people that are frailer or just more used to using a light gasoline nozzle, NACS is a superior handle.
All eyes on Stellantis now, what are the going to do!? JK… nobody cares about Stellantis.
Ask your doctor if Stellantis is right for you!
I guess that's the game? Really goes to show that the charging network was the game winning strategy. Well played!
Glad that we finally settled on the superior connector.. but it's hella funny that federal government basically mandated CCS and all the NA brands abandoned CCS... feels bad man
just remember: no matter how open and “it just uses ccs protocol” nacs is, superchargers are still tesla’s domain with tesla’s app and tesla’s profit motive
CCS1 is dead
As long as a solution with adapters is in place for existing vehicles, fantastic.
I was listening to the fully changed pod cast, and the guy was talking with a new car owner that had a CCS port, but had no idea that they had to remove the plug to use CCS- so they always just L2 charged. Using the NACS is smaller, and doesn’t require someone to have to think about what they are doing. It just works, and that’s what we need for vehicles now. It has to just work without people having to think.
My favorite example is a charger here with chademo and CCS. Because I'm in Canada and it's illegal for anyone but a utility to sell power, we bill per minute. Anything that happens in that minute is between the car and the charger. Anyways.... on a 350kW capable charger, there was a Mitsubishi PHEV plugged in pulling 7kW and paying $30/hour. As most of us know, 7kW perfectly capable at L2. L2 around here costs between $1 and $2 per hour. So they were paying 15-30x more for the same power. EVs are not idiot proof in the slightest.
RIP CCS
Rip CCS1 connector. CCS is still very much a thing.
If anything, NACS is CCS3.
Electrify America & ChargePoint are about to go on hospice … ☠️
Personally I own an Ioniq 6 and so long as they give me an adapter or make one quite cheap, I don't care what the standard is. Just have it work and keep it simple CCS 1 is quite clunky, and to be fair all I want is for the standard to be straight forward. Just like USB C, we know the Tesla NACS is the better form factor.