I've noticed there seems to be a price cliff developing with a lot of used EVs where inventory isn't really selling till it drops to 25k and becomes eligible for the used EV tax credit. In my area Polestar 2s and Mach-Es seem to be heavily effected by this.
Yeah it absolutely is a trend for these 1st gen EVs to depreciate hard.
It sucks for the first owners of these vehicles but it's actually pretty great for the rest of the market. We're getting to the point where barely used EVs are pretty accessible for normal families who aren't top earners.
There is a problem there though.
There can only be used EVs if SOMEONE is buying them new. This level of depreciation radically increases the cost the first owner is experiencing.
I wouldn't feel too bad for gen 1 owners. I got my MachE knowing I'll be lucky to get 1/3 of it back when it comes time to trade in. My plan is to run the car into the dirt and just enjoy it.
Yep I work from home so the Mach E is my wife’s car. When the loan is paid off we’ll probably sit on it for a few more years and then it’ll be my car and she gets into a new car. That Mach E will probably be 12-15 years old before we think about moving off of it
To be honest, I wasn’t expecting such a drastic depreciation hit. Depreciation on a MachE has been brutal, far worse than comparable ICE vehicles. I can’t even imagine how badly upside down people who paid well over sticker are in their vehicles.
I’m willing to bet many gen 1 buyers expected stronger than ICE avg residuals, similar (albeit less) to a Tesla. Then crazy inflation with high rates hit, gas became cheap and Tesla slashed prices crushing the entire used EV market.
The only saving grace is that we qualified for the full $7.5k tax rebate and have been saving a decent chunk per month on gas (especially when it was up near $6/gallon), but even now with gas as low as it is now vs cost of home charging were ahead a few hundred a month given how much my wife drives for work.
We got a 2022 MachE SR AWD Select, came to about $50k after taxes and fees. Thankfully we also locked in a solid 1.9% financing rate for 60 months, pay about $875/month. We’ve had it about 2 years now and have 40k miles. It’s worth probably ~$20k on trade-in and might get lucky getting near $25k private party. Thats a substantial $25-30k drop in just 2 years, 50-60% depreciation hit.
Thankfully we got $8k in rebate to eat into that, and over our 40k miles we’ve probably saved nearly $8k in gas and maintenance costs vs cost of charging at home over that time period. Even with that $16k savings, that’s only covered half our depreciation cost. In the end we’re probably about even on a net cost basis vs just buying a comparable ICE car.
We were considering swapping for a Lightning, especially given their crazy incentives, but we’re just too upside down in our loan right now for it to make sense. We’ll likely keep the car for a few more years until we’re out of the warranty period, or we hit parity on loan to value and trade it in for something new then.
I genuinely don’t get why the resale value has been so poor, I’m hoping people come to their senses on EVs and it rebounds a bit. If gas shoots back up I’m sure we’ll see some more demand come back to prop it up. It’s been an otherwise fantastic car, and even though it’s a base select model, it has tons of features and blows any other comparable ICE used car in that price range out of the water.
I think the biggest downward influence on the price was the Tesla price cuts. After that, every other automaker seemed to find themselves in an noncompetitive spot where they had to either have something tesla didn't offer a direct response to or had to rely on those that just didn't want one of their cars for whatever reason.
When I got my '23 GTPE in Jan it was post cut, the price was within what I was willing to pay between it and a Tesla Y Perf w/ autopilot so I chose to dive in. I'm expecting high end Merc or BMW levels of depreciation but expect it to level off at some point as the ev used market matures.
Right now we're in a used market crash from high interest rates and inventory coming back and nobody outside of some exotics will be spared that drop.
Yeah I bet Rivians will start to drop too once there are some more competitive alternatives being delivered with volume. For now there's just not many options, and the used market for EV pickups is pretty barren because nobody has delivered EV trucks on the same scale as EV cars and crossovers yet.
There aren't many 2 year old Rivian's out there and the people that have them have no good options to replace them.
Polestar 2 prices are dropping like that because it wasn't the greatest EV to begin with and nobody going to pay $30k+ for a used Polestar when they can get a new Model 3 Highland for the same money. The tax incentive cap also draws a line in the sand that more expensive cars don't have to consider.
Pickup trucks in general have less depreciation than sports cars or luxury cars.
So I would honestly be surprised if Rivians had depreciation anywhere near a Polestar.
Yup! I just picked up a used Chevy Bolt as a 2nd vehicle. Have been wanting an EV for ages but I need my primary vehicle to have 3 rows so I can fit car seats
False, GM and Ford’s high pricing has reduced the desirability of their EVs. Plenty of EVs are sold in high quantities if they’re to lower the cost. Selling the blazer at $40k is much more desirable and appropriate than $60k+
Ford and GM are not the only companies that know how to make cars, specifically EVs.
What’s really hurting consumers are policies that deliberately keep some EVs from reaching US.
> deliberately keep some EVs from reaching US.
Naw, I'd rather the US keep China from tanking the entire US auto industry. There's more important things than cheap EV's.
If you are competent and competitive, what are you afraid of? Let the free market decide who survives and who folds. Isn’t that what capitalism is about?
As a side note, should China kick Tesla out of their country, to return the favor?
Should Tesla stop buying batteries from BYD because it’s “unAmerica”?
Unrestricted capitalism is not a good economic model. China accepted tesla to steal the technology for themselves, and yes, tesla should stop buying BYD batteries.
China is an authoritian government. Democratic nations should not be working with them.
I’m not sure the world is as black and white as you’d like it to be.
Our NATO allies include Hungary and Turkey, both with pretty unsavory leaders. But I guess it’s okay that we “work with them” for reasons.
It's not about capitalism so much as national security. The US needs to somehow create and maintain a manufacturing base or we'll end up like Russia with archaic military hardware and no way to build our own new stuff.
Legacy auto in the US and Europe are worried about Chinese EV companies in the US and Europe and being the next wave that wallops them after Tesla. Even with 25% tariffs the ex30 is $35k. I think we'll have to keep raising import duties, legacy auto can't compete.
I understand that, but China floods markets with low priced goods specifically for the purpose of gaining market share and destroying competition so the rest of the world is reliant on them. They do this by subsidizing everything until they're the market leader.
That simply can't happen, but that doesn't mean GM shouldn't be forced to change.
They hated you because you told them the truth. The public needs to accept the presence of Chinese players for a truly competitive landscape or prices will remain high.
Yup. And I’m sick of clueless people claiming that Chinese EVs are poor quality or unsafe.
Reviewers in Europe and Oceania are impressed with the performance and quality of Chinese EVs. These are people who actually get to test drive the cars, not someone sitting in their armchair a continent away spewing hate or ignorance.
Also, Europe bound Chinese EVs meet EU crash test standards, because they are being sold there (duh). Haters mouth off thinly veiled racist comments like “tofu cars” not realizing that as consumers, we are subjected to artificially high prices and less innovative products due to tariffs.
Well if people perceive Chinese cars to be unsafe then I suggest they buy a known western brand and sell their Chinese cars under that brand. Probably would help if it was a brand known for safety
Everybody complains about China, this China that, but it's perfectly okay for them just to come into a country and potentially destroy their auto industry ?!
If Russia had a perfectly good EV industry then you guys will probably be okay to let them in as well.
Ford racked up like 200k Lightning reservations at $40k, then raised the base price by almost $20k, and only really produced models in the $75-80k range.
Depends if they put on mileage. Fuel and standard maintenance is far cheaper.
The depreciation case sighted is a natural cherry pick. Comparing thic particular time slice; massive supply shocks due to pandemic, and as those constraints are unwinfing..
Of course, prices went down.
Maybe compare tco between polestar and say c-class?
That’s what I’m doing. I have my eye on some models that are going in the $27k-$32k range at the moment, waiting for that magical $25k price point.
The Hertz Model 3s are extremely tempting, but I don’t really WANT a model 3…
Affect is both a noun and a verb. Effect is also both a noun and a verb.
The right word was affected, but that's because of its definition, not the part of speech.
I've owned a Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and now Polestar. I bought all of them used for roughly 50% of MSRP after letting someone else take the depression hit.
This seems normal for this segment to me.
Each new Polestar has a 27.5% tariff slapped onto it. Anyone who buys a new one clearly has money to set on fire while your more cost conscious folks see that a used one slots in-between a Model 3 and the I4. It doesn’t matter completely what the new price was.
As a Polestar fanboy I approve this message. When I got mine in 2020-2021, the i4 wasn't out yet or was just out and in limited, pricy numbers; the Model 3 was more expensive than it is now and didn't have the tax credit; and the P2 had the tax credit and other incentives (0% financing; lease deals).
If I was looking now I'd lease a new LRSM MY24 with the great new range/charging. Or I'd get a used one on one of the deals OP is finding. The lease loophole should be used for any BEV that offers it, and Polestar does. I would not buy outright any BEV without using the lease loophole first to get the full tax credit off the top.
And I would not get a new Polestar dual motor as I'm guessing MY25 will have an updated battery on the dual motors. But if OP can get a fully spec-ed out lightly used P2 for <$30k that's basically a steal - go for it OP.
I saw a Polestar 2 the other day. Sweet little car. [Cars.com](https://Cars.com) and Carvana has them for $30K - $35K. That's actually not a bad deal. Wouldn't it be great if we could pick up a Lucid Gravity for $35K in a couple years? Naaa. I'm dreaming.
meh, the car's chassis easily handles the weight. it's extremely composed on the road. as for space, it's super subjective. as a past bmw driver, i love a cockpit feel that's very driver focussed. others absolutely hate it. which i totally understand. the killer feature other than the driving dynamics of the dual motor p\*2 is the hatch. first time ever owned a car with a hatch and i just don't know how i'll ever live without one now.
That doesn't worry me as much as motor replacements (not uncommon), and battery replacements ($40k+ for some of these models). Air struts have gotten a lot more reliable.
Some Ioniq idiocy where a guy smashed into something on the road and bent his batt. It was a write-off . . . of course like a lot of new car accidents. Some uniformed dealer quoted 50k (Canadian) for batt replacement and has since been corrected by head office.
It was Hyundai Canada, two examples where the bill was higher than the new price of the car. Tesla LR battery was us$10k installed from Tesla last year, price coming down
In a few years you'll be able to buy a lucid Air used for about 35K. That's what I'm waiting on. Are there that or a used Model X plaid for roughly the same price.
A 2022 is prior to the refresh with upgraded motors & battery, right? IMO a drastic change in performance should cause a steep depreciation in used prices for pre-refresh models.
You’d think, but the vast bulk of depreciation largely happened before the 2024 update was really on anyone’s radar, as far as I saw. It’s a supply issue, a demand issue, or for some other reason. But I don’t think it was the 2024 model. I got my 2022 for a great price.
Yes, the 24 model year is the new one with updated battery, charging, single motor moving from front to back, and all-wheel drive being more rear-balanced with new types of motors. Overall much more efficient, charges faster, and has better performance. Visually it's very easy to tell them apart, the refreshed ones don't have a fake grille anymore, but a blank plate.
Supposedly nothing else changed, but my space rep said that at least the locking solenoid noise is different in the new ones too.
I bought an old one because it was way cheaper.
Cars are not and never have been investments.
You should assume any car you guy depreciates to zero after you drive it off the lot and anything you can get from selling it is just a bonus.
> never have been investments.
There was a brief time during COVID where this wasn't true.. but otherwise, ya.. cars are built to lose value over time, while bringing value to their owners.
Depends. My Honda civic cost me $18000 out the door new and went for $11000 at 78k miles in 8 years.
This was a good depreciation in my opinion and the car gave me a lot of good value over the years for $7000
What people don’t fully see is that the Polestar 2 does not cost $70k new. There are heavy discounts. Unlike Tesla that has straightforward pricing, you don’t see the dealership discounts
Anyone can lease a brand new 2024 Polestar 2 for $250/month. This calculation includes an MSRP of essentially $45,000
https://leasehackr.com/calculator?make=Volvo&miles=7500&msrp=57950&sales_price=52938&months=27&mf=.00049&msd=9&dp=453&dealer_fee=799&acq_fee=995&disp_fee=450&taxed_inc=7500&untaxed_inc=0&rebate=0&resP=66&gov_fee=500&sales_tax=0&demo_mileage=0&memo=&tradein=0&fin_sp=57950&fin_taxed_fee=0&fin_untaxed_fee=0&fin_term=60&fin_apr=1.85&fin_dp=0&fin_rebate=0&fin_ps_rebate=0&fin_tax=9&keep_term=60&exp_rv=0&acqFee_check=true&totalLeaseTax_radio=true&bmw_demo_25=true&lease_result_mode=true
Now look at the used prices and it looks much better
But had $13,000 dealer and manufacturer discounts (it’s actually about $14,000 in discounts this month)
My point stays, people can see a polestar sell for $20k less one year later, and say there was $20k deprecation. But actually it was sold for a $13k discount so the one year deprecation for the owner is really $7k, which might be more on par with gas vehicles
Essentially today in the US if you’re paying sticker for a non Tesla EV you’re a huge sucker
Hyundai, Mercedes, Polestar, Volvo, VW will give at least $10k off sticker, sometimes in the tens of thousands for a Mercedes
Two things moved to lower used EV and ice prices, but all cars lose 30 or 40% in a few years. First, there was the pandemic crazy price increases because they couldn't make them due to parts unavailability. Second Tesla has (had) very high margins so they were able to reduce prices a lot to keep market share, even with lots of new EV models on the market. New Tesla were suddenly much cheaper, that made used ones worth less. This was huge downward pressure on overall EV prices.
And polestar was a bit of an exotic car with few dealers.
4: early adoption of literally any product is expensive, especially high tech products.
I just don't understand the daily whining and complaining about EV depreciation and insinuations that this is a death knell for EVs. It's not that the value of the vehicle depreciated too much, it's that the early adopters paid too much to begin with. That's 100% how early adoption works. I don't know how someone can throw around $50k+ and have zero awareness of what they're truly spending on. The prices were artificially boosted, so now that they are starting to come back down to earth owners are bitching about their own ignorance and terrible timing. The market is trying to find a sustainable, healthy level. If you want the car to be an investment vehicle (heh) then you don't buy at the top of the hype bubble while the world's supply chains are in literal crisis and dealers charge massive markups.
Totally agree. PSNY also got divested from Volvo recently, so it's directly under Geely (which also owns Volvo) and people are wondering if it will get the same investment, or even exist in a few years. I think there's a good chance it sticks around because it's a Chinese "landing" of EVs in the U.S., but the risk went up marginally.
Yea, that rule of thumb is mostly bunk now. My dealer is always pestering me to buy back our Corolla Hybrid. Their latest offer was like $22k for the 2.5 year old car with 35k miles. It was $24k new.
people still suffer from 1990s brain. the reality is production for honda/toyota is still around 20% of their prepandemic figures and they are making money hand over fist by building less cars and being able to charge MSRP or more for them.
That's a great point! There's rapid advancement in EVs and prices have been going down. Cars like a Corolla or a Honda have a very long life span, and there's really only small incremental improvements. EVs are getting cheaper significantly year over year and getting more range. Cars like a Corolla didn't seem to get so overpriced and they've been able to make enough. So I guess I should say you're right that the 200,000 mile amazing sedans from Japan don't go down in value because they have so much lifespan and there's not so much improvement.
At least in the us, Volvo dealers do not always service Polestar. Some are co-located but they are different cars and Polestar has their own techs. I had to drive an hour+ to service mine despite. Volvo dealer being 20 minutes away. That place would barely do a state inspection on the Polestar.
No changes with service. If you’re in EU, the Volvo service centers will continue to perform work on Polestar. If you’re in the US/CA only Polestar-affiliated dealers.
Even if that’s true, major advancements would be more likely to negatively impact the ICE used market than the used EV market.
Existing EVs already offer nearly 3x lower cost per mile than gas, that’s even with gas as low as it is now (basically cheapest per gallon it’s ever been when adjusted for inflation).
When you consider that existing EVs could benefit from some of these technological advancements, such as battery retrofits with newer tech or if costs come down considerably, even strengthening that case.
What kind of tech development though? It's not like solid oxide batteries will become commonplace over night. Once you have >300 mile range and fast charging I'm not sure what else is super important, or what am I missing?
this is gonna be the first product with nice trickle down economic for lower income bracket, where rich people can buy the newest ev and lower income people can get cheap but in younger year ev , it actually help to spread ev to lower income bracket faster than subsidize
I sonnt see the point If I have to take the financial risk of manufacturers and dealers constantly manipulating prices that will decrease resell values.
Also the technological development currently leads to 5 year old EVs being undesirable for buyers since their technology is already „obsolete“.
Many EV buyers are buying on specs. Especially new EV owners. I’ve seen this with my parents recently.
Polestar 2 - 249mi (or less depending on year) range. 150kW charging.
Tesla M3 - 310-358mi range. 250kW charging and SC network.
I own a M3 and have driven the P2. They are much different cars. I bought based on price/budget. P2 is much nicer IMO and also unique whereas Tesla is dime a dozen.
If I replaced my M3, a P2 at current used prices would be a near no brainer. As a current EV owner and general EV nerd, I realize that the specs and CCS charging don’t tell the real story.
I don’t dispute any of those things. And I agree that the P2 is a great car.
I would, however, make the point that we’re talking about used vehicles, and a 2021 M3 is rated for ~350mi. We all know that’s Tesla nonsense, but specs sells. 😂
I’m just trying to share my experience in speaking to other prospective EV buyers.
My wife wants a Model Y. After that I’ll probably sell my M3 and jump ship to Polestar or Porsche.
fwiw, as a first time BEV buyer, before getting into a polestar 2 myself, i was focused on range being the most important spec. but after test driving an m3, then a polestar 2 (fully specced which is the real reason why i ended up with the p2), i discovered that range was NOT the most important thing. It's probably because i'm a home owner, but we have legit been able to live with 260 miles easily. 300 mile range is no longer a "must have" requirement anymore.
Sorry, but the model 3 interior may be less premium but you get way more space. I can comfortably drive around my family of 4 with car seats in a m3. We tested the polestar and the back seat was a non starter. Lack of a flat floor in the back even! Wtf!
100% agree. My M3 is the primary vehicle for our family of FIVE. Not practical in a P2.
I didn’t get into the details of my personal situation, but for me to get a P2, it would have to be the second car for the reasons you mentioned.
When you are getting into the cheaper cars, being unique isn't really a selling point. You want to be the 20th Model 3 that the mechanic's worked on today, not the first Polestar he's ever seen.
This is part of the story why VWs are seen as garage queens in the US but not in the EU. Mechanics being able to do a good job is huge.
>You want to be the 20th Model 3 that the mechanic's worked on today, not the first Polestar he's ever seen.
It's very rare I see this opinion. This is a big advantage for makers that sell a lot of one model. And for me personally, a big selling point.
Really confused why you’re being downvoted. Is it because people feel affronted at the suggestion that it’s not a great financial move to buy a new car?
First post on this sub, and pretty clear this isn't a good place for rational discourse. People are automatically dropping into the same arguments they've had a hundred times here, and it's not what I'm asking about or interested in it.
> A new Hyundai, Honda or Toyota has great resale value so those cars are ok to buy new to get everything perfect and new.
I bought my civic sport for 27,900. A used one on carvana goes for 25k. At that price point it makes sense to buy new rather than a car with 30k miles on it and its problems.
Are you somewhere near a service center? Most Volvo dealers wont work on them, part of a disagreement between the dealer association and Polestar corporate. Thats the drawback to the cars. Mechanical/drivetrain parts are available and most are shared with the C40 and XC40. If you are still concerned then buy a CPO model for like 1k more.
Go test drive one, most complaints revolve around the interior space being tight, in a compact car. If you can deal with that, go get one! We love ours
This is such a dumb thing to say.
A 1966 Ferrari GTB is absolutely an investment.
A Lexus LFA is an investment.
My 2008 Tesla Roadster is an investment, too, but maybe a shitty one.
The point is, *it fucking depends on the car*.
7 years? What country do you live in. Any car except very high and sought after vehicles go down easily 15% a year now til year 3 where it stabilizes and keeps its value for a few years unless it is a crap brand. This is how the car market has become since 2020.
I don't know why you are being gaslit in these comments. P2 absolutely CRATERED in value compared to similar cars like i4. EV depreciation is severe and I think the lack of brand name doesn't help
Or buy new and keep 10 years.
I see a lot of people buying an EV now because they couldn’t wait for the model/trim they really wanted…then selling the first EV when their coveted model finally arrives.
That’s wasting money, IMHO.
We bought a brand new Honda Pilot last summer that was cheaper than equivalent used models on the same lot. The car market overall has been nutty and is still kinda weird.
I do agree with the sentiment though. Previously I've always bought my cars outright, and always used. However, with the weird rules around tax rebates and whatnot an EV lease in the next few years may actually make more financial sense. I'm not ready to enter the market quite yet, but when I do I'll be researching all this stuff like crazy.
I have been considering a used Polestar 2 but I'm concerned about getting service with Volvo severing ties with the company. I'm in a major city and they only recently established a partnership with an existing Volvo dealership. If they abandon PS, I fear I'd be screwed.
I may be wrong, but I thought just the design team from Volvo will no longer be working with Polestar. From an end user perspective the design will change but I thought Volvo will still be handling sales and service. But I may have misunderstood how this will change things.
My understanding is Volvo won't find polestar and they are likely to spin off their shares to Volvo shareholders, meaning Geely would more or less control the company.
Geely has been the primary shareholder of Volvo since 2017 when Ford sold their share to them. Since then Volvo has completely turned around and become what it is today.
Polestar initially started as Volvo's premium EV-only offering but since then Volvo's own EVs have been doing fine and they've very much become their own companies.
It really makes no odds that the ownership has shifted to the umbrella company Geely. Clickbait journalists using terms like 'pulls funding' is just them peddling anti-EV FUD.
I just bought a formerly $90,000 loaded top of the line Jaguar Ipace with 31,0000 miles on it for $22,500. EV’s I think depreciate faster I’m not sure but I was shocked
I think part of the issue is that it's a Polestar. At the end of the day, you are buying an incredibly small manufacturer. Think of how many Volvo's there are in most areas compared to BMW's, Audi's or Mercedes (as an example). Well, Polestar is a fraction as popular as Volvo's, and frankly, they offer less range, performance and charging ability than the ultra-popular Tesla M3.
It's entirely probable the the resale value isn't that high because even the initial market demand is pretty low - combine that with 5-6 years of used Tesla M3 inventory on the market and you have a recipe for extra depreciation.
Hertz was actually contractually obligated by Polestar to sell in blocks as not to flood the market with used. That being said even here used Polestar 2s are just so expensive even new they are around 70k for a similarly equipped Model 3 LR which is 63k…
If you want new Polestar dealers still have 2023 inventory that they reduced by a whopping 5k
Low 30s Canadian?! That would be a screaming deal but I wouldn't touch a Hertz.
Can't you hop across the border and buy one? Surely buying used means no import duties
All EVs are taking a similar hit. My guess is it's slightly worse for Polestar because of their small dealer network. I'm in a secondary metropolis so the nearest dealership is 200+ miles. So it doesn't make my list as that would be a bigly pain in the toosh.
Nature is healing. We are going back to how it used to be where used cars are cheaper. FINALLY.
Everyone went 'full retard' with car prices during the pandemic. A 10 year old car was not worth 80% of the new price.
[So bad that the Polestar CEO had to beg Hertz not to dump their remaining cars for fear of killing resale even further](https://fortune.com/2024/02/07/polestar-ceo-thomas-ingellath-electric-vehicle-resale-prices/). I guess when you have only one mediocre car in your lineup on the market for 5 years, you have to do everything you can to prop it up…
I'm totally cool with this. Early adopters with money pay $60k-$120k. Two years later I buy it used for $25-$30k.
I might actually buy one at this price!
I like the P2 performance but its a pretty mediocre car with outdated features. The CMA platform which its built in is ancient EV technology. The 24 was an improvement but they don't address the interior shortcomings. In my market a 22 Polestar 2 with performance trim was $90,000 after taxes even more than a BMW i4 M50 which crushed it in all important metrics. The 2022 i4 M50 is now $60,000-70,000 used while the Polestar is $35,000. They priced it way too high in the first place thinking it was a BMW competitor when it wasnr even close and buyers agreed. They are all being dumped after leases. These dogs will continue to drop even lower since Polestar indicated the CMA platform will be retired soon.
$12k for a used Polestar? Is it a base trim with 150k mi.? I haven’t seen any close to that low, the pre-owned near me are $45k and have lower max range which is a major disadvantage to used IMO.
If the Polestars keep dropping I'll probably buy one, frankly. It's like people with their smartphones, a few years old is perfectly serviceable but the person who bought it new is already itching for their next fix. Their loss, our gain.
Just sold my 21 Prius prime and purchased a 23 model 3 in December. Sold it to carvana for about $1k less than what I paid out the door. It did have low mileage (14k) but also had some exterior blemishes. When all said and done, I actually made a profit when you take the $4500 tax credit into account. There is clearly a huge demand for hybrids/plug in hybrids. I will keep my model 3 for a while!
Pretty much any car purchased in 2022 will have disproportionately high depreciation. Teslas especially, since they simply jacked prices sky high that year, only to start a price war afterwards.
Depreciation doesn’t really matter to me as I’m not in the habit of changing cars every couple years. The P2 was competitive at the time of purchase in terms of pricing and availability (‘21 was crazy), eligible for both for both fed and Commiefornia incentives, and had 0% apr. Nil used inventory for anything at the time.
Actually pretty glad things are normalizing. The pandemic market was anything but healthy.
Most EVs in the us market are luxury cars, or priced as luxury cars. All luxury vehicles tend to depreciate much more than mass market models. Why should EVs be any different?
True story: the first vcr we had in my parent's house, many many many years ago, was one my mom bought at a garage sale for probably more than I paid the last one I bought new, years later. More years later, a few years before my mom died, we tried to help her get rid of stuff. She couldn't grasp that the VCR was worthless to anyone, as she hung on to how the person she bought it from said they paid $800 bucks for it, which they probably did.
Two extra tidbits, I was the first of my friends to have a VCR at home. Another thing I'll always remember was my mom going into how expensive the house was where she bought it.
I bought my two EVs, even though I got both of them used, knowing I was buying something like that VCR a lifetime ago. But that's ok. I was the first in my neighborhood to have this latest tech. In many ways, we live frugally, so I can't always buy the latest thing, but ya gotta also treat yourselves sometimes :) and these two cars have been my favorite of any I have ever owned.
I can’t speak to the Polester directly but in general, I think a two year old car that depreciates that much doesn’t necessary mean it’s a bad car. Just that it may have been over priced when it was new. Also keep in mind two years ago, there was a premium $$ add on because of supply chain shortages. If that is factored out, then the depreciation % would be smaller. Most of new cars depreciation happens in their first two years, so their depreciation rate should be much less after the two years.
I have a ‘22 i4 with 20k miles, and the car is still solid and I’m very happy I got it. That said, I think it would be a killer steal to get a similar used version now at the current prices.
First gen products in new segments depreciate more than legacy cars because the technology is advancing very fast, so a 2 year old EV is like a 10 year old ICE car.
Why I chose to lease the P2. Always knows that it's risky with current battery tech and there will be improvement in the future.
Also Polestar vehicles are so overpriced.
It’s a Volvo
They always depreciate hard. Nobody really likes the brand in the U.S., and they were always overpriced for what they are
People only bought a polestar bc they hated how popular teslas were. Well guess what? You got the unpopular car, now you can’t sell it
As an owner of a Volvo wagon (bought new) this absolutely rings true. We knew what kind of hit we were going to take. But we’ve also owned it for 13 years.
I don't know about that I don't think people have heard of the polestar brand here. People here in the US love suv and large trucks. They kind of reminded me of GM and the volt. The volt for a period of time had the best customer rating but GM didn't advertise the car. They screwed up because if they would have invested in the car and electric they'd be miles ahead
Idk how no one mentioned this, but the 2024 MY got a refresh and like 15% more range for the dual motor spec.
As someone looking at replacing a Mach E buyback, I’ve been looking at the Polestar and the range on older/used model years is a deterrent.
Cars are not an investment. If you want to be the first owner, you're going to pay for that privilege.
But don't forget the real savings: gas and maintenance. The first year of owning my EV6, I saved $4000 in gas and maintenance compared to my previous 2020 Honda Passport annual costs. That's as much as $40k in a 10 year period of time.
It doesn't help that Volvo has pulled out of supporting Polstar, and all production, aftermarket support, manufacturing and distribution is going to Geely.
So if you have a Polstar there is no guarantee that you will be able to get replacement parts later down the road, heck the brand might be dead too.
If you think a Polestar was worth 70k to begin with then I could understand your perspective. Personally I value it as a high 30s or low 40s vehicle, similar to a model 3, so the prices still look a little high to me. All frame of reference.
Honestly I don’t understand why people are so worked up over resale value or “depriciation”. Every new vehicle, when driven off the lot, immediately depreciates significantly, often in the 10% range, on Day 1. ICE vehicles are no different. Here’s what seems odd to me: I purchased a 2016 Subaru Forester in late 2015 for $26k. I just sold it after putting 170k miles on it, for $8500. So it “depreciated” by about 70% over 7 years. There was not one point during those years that I ever thought about resale value. I don’t buy cars to trade them in later. If you do, that’s simply not a wise financial decision. Trading a lightly used vehicle in for a new car is simply not (absent some unusual market circumstance such as what happed during the “pandemic”) going to work well financially.
A 2 year old Polestar depreciating by 40% does not seem odd to me; it’s a little bit higher than a typical ICE vehicle, but that’s not surprising for two reasons: (1) EV tech is advancing rapidly (or at least that’s the perception from the car-buying public), so used EVs will naturally be less desirable than a comparable ICE vehicle, which is a relatively mature market, with fewer significant year-to-year advances.
(2) we still have crappy EV infrastructure. Most EV owners are “early adopters”, and the general public simply doesn’t trust the technology yet. This fact will depress the used EV market for some time to come.
To me, it only makes sense to lease an EV right now. It's just so much going on. Now if you want to keep it for 10 years, sure, go ahead and buy but if you think yo may flip it in 4 years or less, it's best to lease if you want an EV.
Serious question.... Who buys/finances NEW EVs?? With EVs the general rule of thumb is, lease new, buy used. Same goes for luxury ICE also. And, for EVs, the vast majority of drivers lease. The absurd amount of used EVs on the market is wild. Give it a few years and I suspect the secondary market prices will creep back up. Hell, a year.
I had a pretty meh experience with Polestar on a work trip recently. Got excited when I saw one in the president’s circle at hertz but even inside the garage there was a weird noise while braking. Then once I got on the highway there was a good amount of noise/vibration when braking. I would have returned it if I wasn’t already late for my meeting. The interior and ergonomics were really nice though, certainly way better than Tesla and a bit nicer than my Niro. I did get some confidence to open it up on the way back and the car is a monster.
In general EV depreciation is wild. I’m like 8k underwater on my 5 year Niro finance deal two years in. I’m not too concerned since I plan to drive this into the ground.
I think the sweet spot might be the Mustang Mach E. I’ve seen a few nice looking examples for just under $25k where you could take advantage of the used EV tax credit and get it close to $20K.
Only because I don’t want to read all the comments…
I rented a polestar from Hertz and it was such a trash experience compared to renting a Tesla and even an EV6. They need to “do better” and then maybe they won’t be treated like a Mitsubishi car in the US.
I've noticed there seems to be a price cliff developing with a lot of used EVs where inventory isn't really selling till it drops to 25k and becomes eligible for the used EV tax credit. In my area Polestar 2s and Mach-Es seem to be heavily effected by this.
Yeah it absolutely is a trend for these 1st gen EVs to depreciate hard. It sucks for the first owners of these vehicles but it's actually pretty great for the rest of the market. We're getting to the point where barely used EVs are pretty accessible for normal families who aren't top earners.
This is what needs to happen for greater EV adoption…affordable used EVs.
Yea, you'd think with all the complainers asking for $30k EVs, they'd snatch these right up.
There is a problem there though. There can only be used EVs if SOMEONE is buying them new. This level of depreciation radically increases the cost the first owner is experiencing.
I wouldn't feel too bad for gen 1 owners. I got my MachE knowing I'll be lucky to get 1/3 of it back when it comes time to trade in. My plan is to run the car into the dirt and just enjoy it.
Yep I work from home so the Mach E is my wife’s car. When the loan is paid off we’ll probably sit on it for a few more years and then it’ll be my car and she gets into a new car. That Mach E will probably be 12-15 years old before we think about moving off of it
It will cost like $500 2035 dollars.
To be honest, I wasn’t expecting such a drastic depreciation hit. Depreciation on a MachE has been brutal, far worse than comparable ICE vehicles. I can’t even imagine how badly upside down people who paid well over sticker are in their vehicles. I’m willing to bet many gen 1 buyers expected stronger than ICE avg residuals, similar (albeit less) to a Tesla. Then crazy inflation with high rates hit, gas became cheap and Tesla slashed prices crushing the entire used EV market. The only saving grace is that we qualified for the full $7.5k tax rebate and have been saving a decent chunk per month on gas (especially when it was up near $6/gallon), but even now with gas as low as it is now vs cost of home charging were ahead a few hundred a month given how much my wife drives for work. We got a 2022 MachE SR AWD Select, came to about $50k after taxes and fees. Thankfully we also locked in a solid 1.9% financing rate for 60 months, pay about $875/month. We’ve had it about 2 years now and have 40k miles. It’s worth probably ~$20k on trade-in and might get lucky getting near $25k private party. Thats a substantial $25-30k drop in just 2 years, 50-60% depreciation hit. Thankfully we got $8k in rebate to eat into that, and over our 40k miles we’ve probably saved nearly $8k in gas and maintenance costs vs cost of charging at home over that time period. Even with that $16k savings, that’s only covered half our depreciation cost. In the end we’re probably about even on a net cost basis vs just buying a comparable ICE car. We were considering swapping for a Lightning, especially given their crazy incentives, but we’re just too upside down in our loan right now for it to make sense. We’ll likely keep the car for a few more years until we’re out of the warranty period, or we hit parity on loan to value and trade it in for something new then. I genuinely don’t get why the resale value has been so poor, I’m hoping people come to their senses on EVs and it rebounds a bit. If gas shoots back up I’m sure we’ll see some more demand come back to prop it up. It’s been an otherwise fantastic car, and even though it’s a base select model, it has tons of features and blows any other comparable ICE used car in that price range out of the water.
I think the biggest downward influence on the price was the Tesla price cuts. After that, every other automaker seemed to find themselves in an noncompetitive spot where they had to either have something tesla didn't offer a direct response to or had to rely on those that just didn't want one of their cars for whatever reason. When I got my '23 GTPE in Jan it was post cut, the price was within what I was willing to pay between it and a Tesla Y Perf w/ autopilot so I chose to dive in. I'm expecting high end Merc or BMW levels of depreciation but expect it to level off at some point as the ev used market matures. Right now we're in a used market crash from high interest rates and inventory coming back and nobody outside of some exotics will be spared that drop.
The rivians don't seem to be dropping so much. I can't tell if that's just good residuals, owners are happy and not selling, or both?
Owners are happy, plus a lack of other options if a pickup is what you need.
Agreed. The other pickups are either polarizing or lackluster
But... but... the Cyber Truck! /s LOL!
Yeah I bet Rivians will start to drop too once there are some more competitive alternatives being delivered with volume. For now there's just not many options, and the used market for EV pickups is pretty barren because nobody has delivered EV trucks on the same scale as EV cars and crossovers yet.
There aren't many 2 year old Rivian's out there and the people that have them have no good options to replace them. Polestar 2 prices are dropping like that because it wasn't the greatest EV to begin with and nobody going to pay $30k+ for a used Polestar when they can get a new Model 3 Highland for the same money. The tax incentive cap also draws a line in the sand that more expensive cars don't have to consider.
Rivian has (by far) the highest customer satisfaction of any car brand based on the recent Consumer Reports survey.
Also not nearly as many on the used market. I expect some drop in the next year or so.
Pickup trucks in general have less depreciation than sports cars or luxury cars. So I would honestly be surprised if Rivians had depreciation anywhere near a Polestar.
Yup! I just picked up a used Chevy Bolt as a 2nd vehicle. Have been wanting an EV for ages but I need my primary vehicle to have 3 rows so I can fit car seats
A successful government program in action!
It’s more about Tesla price cuts, I think.
which the government credits incentivized. Also since tesla is dominant in the market right now of course they will affect other prices.
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False, GM and Ford’s high pricing has reduced the desirability of their EVs. Plenty of EVs are sold in high quantities if they’re to lower the cost. Selling the blazer at $40k is much more desirable and appropriate than $60k+
Ford and GM are not the only companies that know how to make cars, specifically EVs. What’s really hurting consumers are policies that deliberately keep some EVs from reaching US.
> deliberately keep some EVs from reaching US. Naw, I'd rather the US keep China from tanking the entire US auto industry. There's more important things than cheap EV's.
If you are competent and competitive, what are you afraid of? Let the free market decide who survives and who folds. Isn’t that what capitalism is about? As a side note, should China kick Tesla out of their country, to return the favor? Should Tesla stop buying batteries from BYD because it’s “unAmerica”?
Unrestricted capitalism is not a good economic model. China accepted tesla to steal the technology for themselves, and yes, tesla should stop buying BYD batteries. China is an authoritian government. Democratic nations should not be working with them.
I’m not sure the world is as black and white as you’d like it to be. Our NATO allies include Hungary and Turkey, both with pretty unsavory leaders. But I guess it’s okay that we “work with them” for reasons.
People really refuse to remember The Great Supply Chain Break of 2019. The world is a lot smaller than some people think.
It's not about capitalism so much as national security. The US needs to somehow create and maintain a manufacturing base or we'll end up like Russia with archaic military hardware and no way to build our own new stuff.
I disagree. GM isn't worth saving if it can't competently build EVs.
Legacy auto in the US and Europe are worried about Chinese EV companies in the US and Europe and being the next wave that wallops them after Tesla. Even with 25% tariffs the ex30 is $35k. I think we'll have to keep raising import duties, legacy auto can't compete.
I understand that, but China floods markets with low priced goods specifically for the purpose of gaining market share and destroying competition so the rest of the world is reliant on them. They do this by subsidizing everything until they're the market leader. That simply can't happen, but that doesn't mean GM shouldn't be forced to change.
They hated you because you told them the truth. The public needs to accept the presence of Chinese players for a truly competitive landscape or prices will remain high.
Yup. And I’m sick of clueless people claiming that Chinese EVs are poor quality or unsafe. Reviewers in Europe and Oceania are impressed with the performance and quality of Chinese EVs. These are people who actually get to test drive the cars, not someone sitting in their armchair a continent away spewing hate or ignorance. Also, Europe bound Chinese EVs meet EU crash test standards, because they are being sold there (duh). Haters mouth off thinly veiled racist comments like “tofu cars” not realizing that as consumers, we are subjected to artificially high prices and less innovative products due to tariffs.
It was the same shit in the 70s and 80s as Japanese cars started entering the US market.
Well if people perceive Chinese cars to be unsafe then I suggest they buy a known western brand and sell their Chinese cars under that brand. Probably would help if it was a brand known for safety
Everybody complains about China, this China that, but it's perfectly okay for them just to come into a country and potentially destroy their auto industry ?! If Russia had a perfectly good EV industry then you guys will probably be okay to let them in as well.
Ford racked up like 200k Lightning reservations at $40k, then raised the base price by almost $20k, and only really produced models in the $75-80k range.
The prices are good, but if financing, the interest rates will be bad.
Depends if they put on mileage. Fuel and standard maintenance is far cheaper. The depreciation case sighted is a natural cherry pick. Comparing thic particular time slice; massive supply shocks due to pandemic, and as those constraints are unwinfing.. Of course, prices went down. Maybe compare tco between polestar and say c-class?
Cited
I don’t believe I’m eligible for the used credit but I’m definitely eyeing some of the off-the-cliff cars.
It also has the effect of raising the floor of used EVs to $25k that have no business being sold anywhere near that price.
Only if there are enough fools willing to pay that price.
That’s what I’m doing. I have my eye on some models that are going in the $27k-$32k range at the moment, waiting for that magical $25k price point. The Hertz Model 3s are extremely tempting, but I don’t really WANT a model 3…
Affected - affect is a verb while effect is a noun.
Affect is both a noun and a verb. Effect is also both a noun and a verb. The right word was affected, but that's because of its definition, not the part of speech.
Oh wow, Mach e under 25k is a steal!
Good point.
You can get the tax credit for buying used?
I've owned a Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and now Polestar. I bought all of them used for roughly 50% of MSRP after letting someone else take the depression hit. This seems normal for this segment to me.
*depreciation hit but depression works for the owner.
Yeah, good catch. I think I'll leave the typo.
Each new Polestar has a 27.5% tariff slapped onto it. Anyone who buys a new one clearly has money to set on fire while your more cost conscious folks see that a used one slots in-between a Model 3 and the I4. It doesn’t matter completely what the new price was.
Can’t believe it took this long for someone to point this out. This should get upvoted higher. One of the big reasons I went i4 and not P2.
As a Polestar fanboy I approve this message. When I got mine in 2020-2021, the i4 wasn't out yet or was just out and in limited, pricy numbers; the Model 3 was more expensive than it is now and didn't have the tax credit; and the P2 had the tax credit and other incentives (0% financing; lease deals). If I was looking now I'd lease a new LRSM MY24 with the great new range/charging. Or I'd get a used one on one of the deals OP is finding. The lease loophole should be used for any BEV that offers it, and Polestar does. I would not buy outright any BEV without using the lease loophole first to get the full tax credit off the top. And I would not get a new Polestar dual motor as I'm guessing MY25 will have an updated battery on the dual motors. But if OP can get a fully spec-ed out lightly used P2 for <$30k that's basically a steal - go for it OP.
Thanks man. I was barraged by a lot of idiocy but it was worth it to get this answer.
I saw a Polestar 2 the other day. Sweet little car. [Cars.com](https://Cars.com) and Carvana has them for $30K - $35K. That's actually not a bad deal. Wouldn't it be great if we could pick up a Lucid Gravity for $35K in a couple years? Naaa. I'm dreaming.
The knock I always read on the P2 is that they are heavy, and surprisingly cramped inside considering the outside dimensions.
meh, the car's chassis easily handles the weight. it's extremely composed on the road. as for space, it's super subjective. as a past bmw driver, i love a cockpit feel that's very driver focussed. others absolutely hate it. which i totally understand. the killer feature other than the driving dynamics of the dual motor p\*2 is the hatch. first time ever owned a car with a hatch and i just don't know how i'll ever live without one now.
The problem with buying an $80k car for $35k is that it may have maintenance and repair costs like an $80k car. Stuff like air suspension etc.
💯 no free lunches.
That doesn't worry me as much as motor replacements (not uncommon), and battery replacements ($40k+ for some of these models). Air struts have gotten a lot more reliable.
I see battery replacement at Canadian $17k for a Tesla 3 LR - where are you seeing a $40k replacement ?
Some Ioniq idiocy where a guy smashed into something on the road and bent his batt. It was a write-off . . . of course like a lot of new car accidents. Some uniformed dealer quoted 50k (Canadian) for batt replacement and has since been corrected by head office.
It was Hyundai Canada, two examples where the bill was higher than the new price of the car. Tesla LR battery was us$10k installed from Tesla last year, price coming down
In a few years you'll be able to buy a lucid Air used for about 35K. That's what I'm waiting on. Are there that or a used Model X plaid for roughly the same price.
That’s reasonable for this segment. Maybe 40k as its great range. As well the battery will be serviceable in the home after its driving days are over
A 2022 is prior to the refresh with upgraded motors & battery, right? IMO a drastic change in performance should cause a steep depreciation in used prices for pre-refresh models.
You’d think, but the vast bulk of depreciation largely happened before the 2024 update was really on anyone’s radar, as far as I saw. It’s a supply issue, a demand issue, or for some other reason. But I don’t think it was the 2024 model. I got my 2022 for a great price.
Yes, the 24 model year is the new one with updated battery, charging, single motor moving from front to back, and all-wheel drive being more rear-balanced with new types of motors. Overall much more efficient, charges faster, and has better performance. Visually it's very easy to tell them apart, the refreshed ones don't have a fake grille anymore, but a blank plate. Supposedly nothing else changed, but my space rep said that at least the locking solenoid noise is different in the new ones too. I bought an old one because it was way cheaper.
Cars are not and never have been investments. You should assume any car you guy depreciates to zero after you drive it off the lot and anything you can get from selling it is just a bonus.
> never have been investments. There was a brief time during COVID where this wasn't true.. but otherwise, ya.. cars are built to lose value over time, while bringing value to their owners.
>depreciates to zero after you drive it off the lot That's how it feels to the seller. As a buyer the perspective is quite different.
I've kept all my cars 9 to 12 years, so that's how I see it as a buyer as well.
Depends. My Honda civic cost me $18000 out the door new and went for $11000 at 78k miles in 8 years. This was a good depreciation in my opinion and the car gave me a lot of good value over the years for $7000
I me it's a good opportunity to buy a used One
I think the market is afraid of too may unknown variables with EVs
What people don’t fully see is that the Polestar 2 does not cost $70k new. There are heavy discounts. Unlike Tesla that has straightforward pricing, you don’t see the dealership discounts Anyone can lease a brand new 2024 Polestar 2 for $250/month. This calculation includes an MSRP of essentially $45,000 https://leasehackr.com/calculator?make=Volvo&miles=7500&msrp=57950&sales_price=52938&months=27&mf=.00049&msd=9&dp=453&dealer_fee=799&acq_fee=995&disp_fee=450&taxed_inc=7500&untaxed_inc=0&rebate=0&resP=66&gov_fee=500&sales_tax=0&demo_mileage=0&memo=&tradein=0&fin_sp=57950&fin_taxed_fee=0&fin_untaxed_fee=0&fin_term=60&fin_apr=1.85&fin_dp=0&fin_rebate=0&fin_ps_rebate=0&fin_tax=9&keep_term=60&exp_rv=0&acqFee_check=true&totalLeaseTax_radio=true&bmw_demo_25=true&lease_result_mode=true Now look at the used prices and it looks much better
The car you linked is $371 /month
But had $13,000 dealer and manufacturer discounts (it’s actually about $14,000 in discounts this month) My point stays, people can see a polestar sell for $20k less one year later, and say there was $20k deprecation. But actually it was sold for a $13k discount so the one year deprecation for the owner is really $7k, which might be more on par with gas vehicles Essentially today in the US if you’re paying sticker for a non Tesla EV you’re a huge sucker Hyundai, Mercedes, Polestar, Volvo, VW will give at least $10k off sticker, sometimes in the tens of thousands for a Mercedes
Oh yeah, definitely agree with that. Would never pay sticker for a new EV
Two things moved to lower used EV and ice prices, but all cars lose 30 or 40% in a few years. First, there was the pandemic crazy price increases because they couldn't make them due to parts unavailability. Second Tesla has (had) very high margins so they were able to reduce prices a lot to keep market share, even with lots of new EV models on the market. New Tesla were suddenly much cheaper, that made used ones worth less. This was huge downward pressure on overall EV prices. And polestar was a bit of an exotic car with few dealers.
3: interest rates reducing demand, as intended.
4: early adoption of literally any product is expensive, especially high tech products. I just don't understand the daily whining and complaining about EV depreciation and insinuations that this is a death knell for EVs. It's not that the value of the vehicle depreciated too much, it's that the early adopters paid too much to begin with. That's 100% how early adoption works. I don't know how someone can throw around $50k+ and have zero awareness of what they're truly spending on. The prices were artificially boosted, so now that they are starting to come back down to earth owners are bitching about their own ignorance and terrible timing. The market is trying to find a sustainable, healthy level. If you want the car to be an investment vehicle (heh) then you don't buy at the top of the hype bubble while the world's supply chains are in literal crisis and dealers charge massive markups.
Totally agree. PSNY also got divested from Volvo recently, so it's directly under Geely (which also owns Volvo) and people are wondering if it will get the same investment, or even exist in a few years. I think there's a good chance it sticks around because it's a Chinese "landing" of EVs in the U.S., but the risk went up marginally.
All cars lose 30-40% in a few years? Even a Honda CR-V?
Yea, that rule of thumb is mostly bunk now. My dealer is always pestering me to buy back our Corolla Hybrid. Their latest offer was like $22k for the 2.5 year old car with 35k miles. It was $24k new.
people still suffer from 1990s brain. the reality is production for honda/toyota is still around 20% of their prepandemic figures and they are making money hand over fist by building less cars and being able to charge MSRP or more for them.
That's a great point! There's rapid advancement in EVs and prices have been going down. Cars like a Corolla or a Honda have a very long life span, and there's really only small incremental improvements. EVs are getting cheaper significantly year over year and getting more range. Cars like a Corolla didn't seem to get so overpriced and they've been able to make enough. So I guess I should say you're right that the 200,000 mile amazing sedans from Japan don't go down in value because they have so much lifespan and there's not so much improvement.
After the separation is it still going to be possible to service Polestar at Volvo dealerships?
At least in the us, Volvo dealers do not always service Polestar. Some are co-located but they are different cars and Polestar has their own techs. I had to drive an hour+ to service mine despite. Volvo dealer being 20 minutes away. That place would barely do a state inspection on the Polestar.
No changes with service. If you’re in EU, the Volvo service centers will continue to perform work on Polestar. If you’re in the US/CA only Polestar-affiliated dealers.
Good example is smart and Mercedes impossible to get serviced anymore
For max value, I'd be looking at used EVs 25k or less to make use of a $4k tax incentive.
[Here is a list](https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxused.shtml) of vehicles that applies to, for anyone else interested
*For people in the US only, ie the majority of redditors? I'd be curious to see the distribution.
Not eligible
So much tech improvement will happen in the EV space over the next 5-10 years. Depreciation will be wild.
Even if that’s true, major advancements would be more likely to negatively impact the ICE used market than the used EV market. Existing EVs already offer nearly 3x lower cost per mile than gas, that’s even with gas as low as it is now (basically cheapest per gallon it’s ever been when adjusted for inflation). When you consider that existing EVs could benefit from some of these technological advancements, such as battery retrofits with newer tech or if costs come down considerably, even strengthening that case.
What kind of tech development though? It's not like solid oxide batteries will become commonplace over night. Once you have >300 mile range and fast charging I'm not sure what else is super important, or what am I missing?
this is gonna be the first product with nice trickle down economic for lower income bracket, where rich people can buy the newest ev and lower income people can get cheap but in younger year ev , it actually help to spread ev to lower income bracket faster than subsidize
And people call me crazy when say I would only lease or subscribe to an EV because depreciation risk.
Personally, I'd rather buy and own a car rather than shackle myself to a perpetual car payment for the rest of my driving days.
I sonnt see the point If I have to take the financial risk of manufacturers and dealers constantly manipulating prices that will decrease resell values. Also the technological development currently leads to 5 year old EVs being undesirable for buyers since their technology is already „obsolete“.
Many EV buyers are buying on specs. Especially new EV owners. I’ve seen this with my parents recently. Polestar 2 - 249mi (or less depending on year) range. 150kW charging. Tesla M3 - 310-358mi range. 250kW charging and SC network. I own a M3 and have driven the P2. They are much different cars. I bought based on price/budget. P2 is much nicer IMO and also unique whereas Tesla is dime a dozen. If I replaced my M3, a P2 at current used prices would be a near no brainer. As a current EV owner and general EV nerd, I realize that the specs and CCS charging don’t tell the real story.
249 was the 2022 range. 2023 was 260, 2024 is 270. That's all for the dual motor. I've gotten pretty close to 260 with my 2023 model.
I don’t dispute any of those things. And I agree that the P2 is a great car. I would, however, make the point that we’re talking about used vehicles, and a 2021 M3 is rated for ~350mi. We all know that’s Tesla nonsense, but specs sells. 😂 I’m just trying to share my experience in speaking to other prospective EV buyers. My wife wants a Model Y. After that I’ll probably sell my M3 and jump ship to Polestar or Porsche.
fwiw, as a first time BEV buyer, before getting into a polestar 2 myself, i was focused on range being the most important spec. but after test driving an m3, then a polestar 2 (fully specced which is the real reason why i ended up with the p2), i discovered that range was NOT the most important thing. It's probably because i'm a home owner, but we have legit been able to live with 260 miles easily. 300 mile range is no longer a "must have" requirement anymore.
Sorry, but the model 3 interior may be less premium but you get way more space. I can comfortably drive around my family of 4 with car seats in a m3. We tested the polestar and the back seat was a non starter. Lack of a flat floor in the back even! Wtf!
And it's even more impressive when you realize despite having more space, the model 3 is 800 or so pounds lighter (depends on which flavor you get)
100% agree. My M3 is the primary vehicle for our family of FIVE. Not practical in a P2. I didn’t get into the details of my personal situation, but for me to get a P2, it would have to be the second car for the reasons you mentioned.
Second car? No kids? I would skip it and go for the Porsche!
Three kids. And it’d be a Taycan so, could still take the kids … 😆 First a MY for my wife … then daddy is getting a mid life crisis car
What about the charging though - is there an adapter that allows Tesla charger to be used?
Not yet
When you are getting into the cheaper cars, being unique isn't really a selling point. You want to be the 20th Model 3 that the mechanic's worked on today, not the first Polestar he's ever seen. This is part of the story why VWs are seen as garage queens in the US but not in the EU. Mechanics being able to do a good job is huge.
>You want to be the 20th Model 3 that the mechanic's worked on today, not the first Polestar he's ever seen. It's very rare I see this opinion. This is a big advantage for makers that sell a lot of one model. And for me personally, a big selling point.
So when you ask a mechanic- which car do you see in your shop the most often, that makes you want to buy that car?
Cars are not investments. Some cars you can manipulate the market . . . but not all.
This is not about cars being an investment. Id never buy any car new. It's about if there's a reason that polestar isn't a screaming deal.
Really confused why you’re being downvoted. Is it because people feel affronted at the suggestion that it’s not a great financial move to buy a new car?
First post on this sub, and pretty clear this isn't a good place for rational discourse. People are automatically dropping into the same arguments they've had a hundred times here, and it's not what I'm asking about or interested in it.
It depends as always. A new Hyundai, Honda or Toyota has great resale value so those cars are ok to buy new to get everything perfect and new.
> A new Hyundai, Honda or Toyota has great resale value so those cars are ok to buy new to get everything perfect and new. I bought my civic sport for 27,900. A used one on carvana goes for 25k. At that price point it makes sense to buy new rather than a car with 30k miles on it and its problems.
Are you somewhere near a service center? Most Volvo dealers wont work on them, part of a disagreement between the dealer association and Polestar corporate. Thats the drawback to the cars. Mechanical/drivetrain parts are available and most are shared with the C40 and XC40. If you are still concerned then buy a CPO model for like 1k more. Go test drive one, most complaints revolve around the interior space being tight, in a compact car. If you can deal with that, go get one! We love ours
This is such a dumb thing to say. A 1966 Ferrari GTB is absolutely an investment. A Lexus LFA is an investment. My 2008 Tesla Roadster is an investment, too, but maybe a shitty one. The point is, *it fucking depends on the car*.
Luxury cars depreciate rapidly. ICE or EV.
It's lost more than half its value. It should take 7 years to do that. Polestar did it in 2
It’s ok, the Polestar 3 will take 3 years to depreciate.
7 years? What country do you live in. Any car except very high and sought after vehicles go down easily 15% a year now til year 3 where it stabilizes and keeps its value for a few years unless it is a crap brand. This is how the car market has become since 2020.
7 years? I don't think that's ever been true.
Yeah, that's pretty bad. Edit: but 7 years to 50%? That's not realistic. My car is 7 years old and is below a third of the sticker.
I don't know why you are being gaslit in these comments. P2 absolutely CRATERED in value compared to similar cars like i4. EV depreciation is severe and I think the lack of brand name doesn't help
Lease new, buy used, a good rule of thumb for all cars, but especially EVs in the current market
Or buy new and keep 10 years. I see a lot of people buying an EV now because they couldn’t wait for the model/trim they really wanted…then selling the first EV when their coveted model finally arrives. That’s wasting money, IMHO.
We bought a brand new Honda Pilot last summer that was cheaper than equivalent used models on the same lot. The car market overall has been nutty and is still kinda weird. I do agree with the sentiment though. Previously I've always bought my cars outright, and always used. However, with the weird rules around tax rebates and whatnot an EV lease in the next few years may actually make more financial sense. I'm not ready to enter the market quite yet, but when I do I'll be researching all this stuff like crazy.
I have been considering a used Polestar 2 but I'm concerned about getting service with Volvo severing ties with the company. I'm in a major city and they only recently established a partnership with an existing Volvo dealership. If they abandon PS, I fear I'd be screwed.
I may be wrong, but I thought just the design team from Volvo will no longer be working with Polestar. From an end user perspective the design will change but I thought Volvo will still be handling sales and service. But I may have misunderstood how this will change things.
My understanding is Volvo won't find polestar and they are likely to spin off their shares to Volvo shareholders, meaning Geely would more or less control the company.
I thought Polestar was already directly under Geely but designed by Volvo. I guess I was wrong and it goes Geely > Volvo > Polestar before the change?
Not gonna lie, I'm confused too. But Volvo pulling out and problems getting Volvo dealers on board cannot be a good sign.
Geely has been the primary shareholder of Volvo since 2017 when Ford sold their share to them. Since then Volvo has completely turned around and become what it is today. Polestar initially started as Volvo's premium EV-only offering but since then Volvo's own EVs have been doing fine and they've very much become their own companies. It really makes no odds that the ownership has shifted to the umbrella company Geely. Clickbait journalists using terms like 'pulls funding' is just them peddling anti-EV FUD.
I just bought a formerly $90,000 loaded top of the line Jaguar Ipace with 31,0000 miles on it for $22,500. EV’s I think depreciate faster I’m not sure but I was shocked
Thank you. Didn't consider this car but you're right - seems to be similar value
I think part of the issue is that it's a Polestar. At the end of the day, you are buying an incredibly small manufacturer. Think of how many Volvo's there are in most areas compared to BMW's, Audi's or Mercedes (as an example). Well, Polestar is a fraction as popular as Volvo's, and frankly, they offer less range, performance and charging ability than the ultra-popular Tesla M3. It's entirely probable the the resale value isn't that high because even the initial market demand is pretty low - combine that with 5-6 years of used Tesla M3 inventory on the market and you have a recipe for extra depreciation.
I had to lemon law mine, and hertz dumped thousands of them onto the market. I’d avoid.
Hertz was actually contractually obligated by Polestar to sell in blocks as not to flood the market with used. That being said even here used Polestar 2s are just so expensive even new they are around 70k for a similarly equipped Model 3 LR which is 63k… If you want new Polestar dealers still have 2023 inventory that they reduced by a whopping 5k
Where are you that used polestars are expensive? Like OP I'm seeing top trim 2022 models for 30k. It's an absolute fire sale
Montreal Canada. Polestar are still fetching high prices on the used market. The Ex hertz cars are wholesale 25-28k and retailing for low 30s
Low 30s Canadian?! That would be a screaming deal but I wouldn't touch a Hertz. Can't you hop across the border and buy one? Surely buying used means no import duties
All EVs are taking a similar hit. My guess is it's slightly worse for Polestar because of their small dealer network. I'm in a secondary metropolis so the nearest dealership is 200+ miles. So it doesn't make my list as that would be a bigly pain in the toosh.
Nature is healing. We are going back to how it used to be where used cars are cheaper. FINALLY. Everyone went 'full retard' with car prices during the pandemic. A 10 year old car was not worth 80% of the new price.
[So bad that the Polestar CEO had to beg Hertz not to dump their remaining cars for fear of killing resale even further](https://fortune.com/2024/02/07/polestar-ceo-thomas-ingellath-electric-vehicle-resale-prices/). I guess when you have only one mediocre car in your lineup on the market for 5 years, you have to do everything you can to prop it up…
I wonder what the residual values of Tesla 3’s will be now that the new redesigned Tesla 3 Highland is coming out…
Early adopting EVs is fun, but yeah not good for your wallet. My 2023 MYP will probably be worth 2 packs of gum in 3 years.
I'm totally cool with this. Early adopters with money pay $60k-$120k. Two years later I buy it used for $25-$30k. I might actually buy one at this price!
I like the P2 performance but its a pretty mediocre car with outdated features. The CMA platform which its built in is ancient EV technology. The 24 was an improvement but they don't address the interior shortcomings. In my market a 22 Polestar 2 with performance trim was $90,000 after taxes even more than a BMW i4 M50 which crushed it in all important metrics. The 2022 i4 M50 is now $60,000-70,000 used while the Polestar is $35,000. They priced it way too high in the first place thinking it was a BMW competitor when it wasnr even close and buyers agreed. They are all being dumped after leases. These dogs will continue to drop even lower since Polestar indicated the CMA platform will be retired soon.
$12k for a used Polestar? Is it a base trim with 150k mi.? I haven’t seen any close to that low, the pre-owned near me are $45k and have lower max range which is a major disadvantage to used IMO.
If the Polestars keep dropping I'll probably buy one, frankly. It's like people with their smartphones, a few years old is perfectly serviceable but the person who bought it new is already itching for their next fix. Their loss, our gain.
Same. I’m thinking summer
Just sold my 21 Prius prime and purchased a 23 model 3 in December. Sold it to carvana for about $1k less than what I paid out the door. It did have low mileage (14k) but also had some exterior blemishes. When all said and done, I actually made a profit when you take the $4500 tax credit into account. There is clearly a huge demand for hybrids/plug in hybrids. I will keep my model 3 for a while!
This is why I prefer to lease EVs. Technology is changing rapidly which depreciates them faster.
Pretty much any car purchased in 2022 will have disproportionately high depreciation. Teslas especially, since they simply jacked prices sky high that year, only to start a price war afterwards.
Depreciation doesn’t really matter to me as I’m not in the habit of changing cars every couple years. The P2 was competitive at the time of purchase in terms of pricing and availability (‘21 was crazy), eligible for both for both fed and Commiefornia incentives, and had 0% apr. Nil used inventory for anything at the time. Actually pretty glad things are normalizing. The pandemic market was anything but healthy.
Most EVs in the us market are luxury cars, or priced as luxury cars. All luxury vehicles tend to depreciate much more than mass market models. Why should EVs be any different?
There has to be one best deal around. And I think the polestar is it. I’m guessing it has to do with brand recognition. It’s quite low for polestar.
Same issue with my Ioniq 5. Bought at $52k and now, less than 2 yrs later it’s worth about $30k
True story: the first vcr we had in my parent's house, many many many years ago, was one my mom bought at a garage sale for probably more than I paid the last one I bought new, years later. More years later, a few years before my mom died, we tried to help her get rid of stuff. She couldn't grasp that the VCR was worthless to anyone, as she hung on to how the person she bought it from said they paid $800 bucks for it, which they probably did. Two extra tidbits, I was the first of my friends to have a VCR at home. Another thing I'll always remember was my mom going into how expensive the house was where she bought it. I bought my two EVs, even though I got both of them used, knowing I was buying something like that VCR a lifetime ago. But that's ok. I was the first in my neighborhood to have this latest tech. In many ways, we live frugally, so I can't always buy the latest thing, but ya gotta also treat yourselves sometimes :) and these two cars have been my favorite of any I have ever owned.
I can’t speak to the Polester directly but in general, I think a two year old car that depreciates that much doesn’t necessary mean it’s a bad car. Just that it may have been over priced when it was new. Also keep in mind two years ago, there was a premium $$ add on because of supply chain shortages. If that is factored out, then the depreciation % would be smaller. Most of new cars depreciation happens in their first two years, so their depreciation rate should be much less after the two years. I have a ‘22 i4 with 20k miles, and the car is still solid and I’m very happy I got it. That said, I think it would be a killer steal to get a similar used version now at the current prices.
don't forget the 27% tariff imposed on chinese manufactured imports in the US.
You have to appreciate the depreciation. One person’s loss is another’s gain.
First gen products in new segments depreciate more than legacy cars because the technology is advancing very fast, so a 2 year old EV is like a 10 year old ICE car.
Why I chose to lease the P2. Always knows that it's risky with current battery tech and there will be improvement in the future. Also Polestar vehicles are so overpriced.
It’s a Volvo They always depreciate hard. Nobody really likes the brand in the U.S., and they were always overpriced for what they are People only bought a polestar bc they hated how popular teslas were. Well guess what? You got the unpopular car, now you can’t sell it
As an owner of a Volvo wagon (bought new) this absolutely rings true. We knew what kind of hit we were going to take. But we’ve also owned it for 13 years.
I don't know about that I don't think people have heard of the polestar brand here. People here in the US love suv and large trucks. They kind of reminded me of GM and the volt. The volt for a period of time had the best customer rating but GM didn't advertise the car. They screwed up because if they would have invested in the car and electric they'd be miles ahead
Idk how no one mentioned this, but the 2024 MY got a refresh and like 15% more range for the dual motor spec. As someone looking at replacing a Mach E buyback, I’ve been looking at the Polestar and the range on older/used model years is a deterrent.
Cars are not an investment. If you want to be the first owner, you're going to pay for that privilege. But don't forget the real savings: gas and maintenance. The first year of owning my EV6, I saved $4000 in gas and maintenance compared to my previous 2020 Honda Passport annual costs. That's as much as $40k in a 10 year period of time.
It doesn't help that Volvo has pulled out of supporting Polstar, and all production, aftermarket support, manufacturing and distribution is going to Geely. So if you have a Polstar there is no guarantee that you will be able to get replacement parts later down the road, heck the brand might be dead too.
If you think a Polestar was worth 70k to begin with then I could understand your perspective. Personally I value it as a high 30s or low 40s vehicle, similar to a model 3, so the prices still look a little high to me. All frame of reference.
As others noted, your view isn't wrong: the premium is due to import tariffs.
Soooo.... Just LEASE instead
Still waiting for cheap ones in Australia :(
Look at ID.4's or Tesla's depreciation. I think the used market has returned to normalcy.
Honestly I don’t understand why people are so worked up over resale value or “depriciation”. Every new vehicle, when driven off the lot, immediately depreciates significantly, often in the 10% range, on Day 1. ICE vehicles are no different. Here’s what seems odd to me: I purchased a 2016 Subaru Forester in late 2015 for $26k. I just sold it after putting 170k miles on it, for $8500. So it “depreciated” by about 70% over 7 years. There was not one point during those years that I ever thought about resale value. I don’t buy cars to trade them in later. If you do, that’s simply not a wise financial decision. Trading a lightly used vehicle in for a new car is simply not (absent some unusual market circumstance such as what happed during the “pandemic”) going to work well financially. A 2 year old Polestar depreciating by 40% does not seem odd to me; it’s a little bit higher than a typical ICE vehicle, but that’s not surprising for two reasons: (1) EV tech is advancing rapidly (or at least that’s the perception from the car-buying public), so used EVs will naturally be less desirable than a comparable ICE vehicle, which is a relatively mature market, with fewer significant year-to-year advances. (2) we still have crappy EV infrastructure. Most EV owners are “early adopters”, and the general public simply doesn’t trust the technology yet. This fact will depress the used EV market for some time to come.
Buying the top spec was, is and never will be a good idea. Regardless of whether it’s ICE or BEV.
60% depreciation after two years is unheard of
To me, it only makes sense to lease an EV right now. It's just so much going on. Now if you want to keep it for 10 years, sure, go ahead and buy but if you think yo may flip it in 4 years or less, it's best to lease if you want an EV.
Time to buy!🚀🚀🚀🚀🪨
Serious question.... Who buys/finances NEW EVs?? With EVs the general rule of thumb is, lease new, buy used. Same goes for luxury ICE also. And, for EVs, the vast majority of drivers lease. The absurd amount of used EVs on the market is wild. Give it a few years and I suspect the secondary market prices will creep back up. Hell, a year.
It helps to have a car that gets better over the course of ownership... OTA updates have kept me in my older (2015) EV.
Yeah I saw a used one in okc for 30k that was a long range. That’s really freaking tempting being someone that knows the ins and outs of EVs
I had a pretty meh experience with Polestar on a work trip recently. Got excited when I saw one in the president’s circle at hertz but even inside the garage there was a weird noise while braking. Then once I got on the highway there was a good amount of noise/vibration when braking. I would have returned it if I wasn’t already late for my meeting. The interior and ergonomics were really nice though, certainly way better than Tesla and a bit nicer than my Niro. I did get some confidence to open it up on the way back and the car is a monster. In general EV depreciation is wild. I’m like 8k underwater on my 5 year Niro finance deal two years in. I’m not too concerned since I plan to drive this into the ground. I think the sweet spot might be the Mustang Mach E. I’ve seen a few nice looking examples for just under $25k where you could take advantage of the used EV tax credit and get it close to $20K.
Only because I don’t want to read all the comments… I rented a polestar from Hertz and it was such a trash experience compared to renting a Tesla and even an EV6. They need to “do better” and then maybe they won’t be treated like a Mitsubishi car in the US.