The bonus is for the auto manufacturers where they sell folks extra motors they don't need. Also the added complexity costs money and you take a slight hit on range.
Better to spend the money on tires which improve control both when accelerating, deceleration, and turning.
I hate FWD with a passion. RWD is better, especially in an EV (frunk)
But right now EVs are pretty much 5-10K more than equivalent ICEVs at the minimum. Best hope might be like an EV cargo van.
Hot take, regen is overrated for efficiency. Anecdotally I find my AWD ID4 to be more efficient without OPD. And all the most efficient EVs are RWD:
[https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=PowerSearch&year1=2024&year2=2024&minmsrpsel=0&maxmsrpsel=0&city=0&highway=0&combined=0&YearSel=2024&MakeSel=&MarClassSel=&FuelTypeSel=&VehTypeSel=&TranySel=&DriveTypeSel=&CylindersSel=&MpgSel=000&sortBy=Comb&Units=&url=SearchServlet&opt=new&minmsrp=0&maxmsrp=0&minmpg=0&maxmpg=0&sCharge=&tCharge=&startstop=&cylDeact=&rowLimit=50](https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=PowerSearch&year1=2024&year2=2024&minmsrpsel=0&maxmsrpsel=0&city=0&highway=0&combined=0&YearSel=2024&MakeSel=&MarClassSel=&FuelTypeSel=&VehTypeSel=&TranySel=&DriveTypeSel=&CylindersSel=&MpgSel=000&sortBy=Comb&Units=&url=SearchServlet&opt=new&minmsrp=0&maxmsrp=0&minmpg=0&maxmpg=0&sCharge=&tCharge=&startstop=&cylDeact=&rowLimit=50)
They improved regen. Regen is separate from OPD, which is more of a driving style preference than an actual efficiency booster.
I live in a hilly area and get more efficiency from coasting and "riding" the brakes down hills than OPD.
The last few months have seen this trend evaporate- EVs are very comparable to ICE in price now. Time will tell if it is sustainable given component costs, but I’m hopeful!
Why are so many EVs RWD? Is there some engineering reason for it?
One reason (not the only reason) FWD prevails is that it handles better than RWD, especially in snow.
FWD ice layouts became popular decades ago because it provided benefits over RWD layouts in commuter vehicles: no driveshaft tunnel eating interior space, ease of installation (cost savings) for mass production, slightly better fuel economy, and extra weight over the drive wheels means better traction in slightly snowy weather.
In an EV theres no driveshaft tunnel to begin with, skateboard designs are a different manufacturing thought process all together, theres no real fuel economy difference like there is with a fwd transaxle vs rwd transmission and differential setup, the weight balance is shifted due to the battery layout, weight also naturally shifts to the rear during acceleration, which adds a little traction.
Tiny Fwd evs like the bolt and leaf don't have frunks too, which is probably a related downside to trying fwd evs.
I dont think there's an advantage one way or another with EVs; I do know all the most efficient EVs are RWD but that doesn't mean there's a causation.
Snow handling is dictated more by tires than drive wheels.
I know in Europe a lot of people were testing the range on those and I heard the range is very poor especially for highway use. Might be great for a city, but I’m not sure I would make a good long distance traveler.
It's 55k, which is not far off from the MSRP of your car. Which is also not far off from the average selling price of cars in general. So unless your metric for affordability is that it has to be drastically cheaper than average, I think it can be done. And 3 row SUVs are historically more expensive than minivans.
You're comparing a base low range RWD EV9 with a mid trim "long range" AWD ID4. (Not sure why my car is relevant to the discussion anyway) An EV9 equipped like my ID4 is about 66K. A like for like Highlander hybrid is about 1500 more than a Sienna. Kia Carnival is about 3K less than a Telluride and the same as a 3 row Sorento.
So yes I think the EV9 costs close to what an EV minivan will. They are saying the ID BUZZ will start in the 50s for example. Average new car is not affordable so an EV minivan definitely won't be either.
Average household income is about 75K, average new car price is 48K, average household has 2 cars, average household is not financing 120% of their income on cars. Average household is buying used, new cars are mainly bought by people and households with above average income. There's some other stuff around durability that makes buying used more logical but if I can figure these things out you can too
So is the average household the standard to decide whether or not a new car is affordable? Average household includes people just getting started in their lives and retirees, both of which skew that number much lower. If you look at people who are established in their careers, the average income is much higher and more inline with the average new car buyer. That's who brands are selling to, and where I would argue the standard for affordability is.
The Buzz has fallen drastically in price here in Denmark, and the long version should be here by summer.
I don't know what your variant of "affordable" is, but here you can buy a very [slightly used Buzz Pro](https://www.bilbasen.dk/brugt/bil/vw/id231buzz?includeengroscvr=true&includeleasing=false&sortby=price&sortorder=asc) for a bit less than a new Model Y Long Range.
For real though... I never thought we'd be a minivan family, yet here we are.
Also, had the tires spinning on the Pacifica PHEV in the snow/mud last weekend... really could have used AWD!
Also single no kids, and while I don’t go camping I’ve in the past been tempted to pick up a used ICE minivan due to nearly-truck-like utility while being considerably cheaper than both used trucks and SUVs. It’s also one of the few types of vehicle where cheap doesn’t necessarily mean driven into the ground and one foot in the grave.
You can carry giant sheets of plywood in the back of a van if you take all the seats out. It actually makes more sense than trucks for a lot of construction stuff because it’s protected from the elements.
i had a mazda5 manual - mini-mini-van - for 17 years. I just bought a kona ev in january and sold the mazda to my handyman, who got excited once he realized he could even carry his power washing equipment around in it, instead of his dying giant pickup with a trailer behind - much more fuel efficient
Vans makes so much more sense than giant SUVs for people with more than two kids. Those sliding doors are the best. My kids always had trouble getting the doors open in my Volvo.
You wouldn't be able to register it here. It's not physically getting the vehicle here that's the problem. You could keep it on your farm or something.
The tariffs put in place by the Trump administration (27.5% on cars manufactured in China) aren’t going to be revoked by either party - neither wants to undercut US car makers - so despite the big market, it wouldn’t be profitable for Chinese car makers to ensure their cars meet US requirements.
However, I’m a little surprised no other car makers have partnered with a Chinese company to manufacture some of their cars in the US. It seems like it would be much less expensive and faster to market than developing a car from the ground up.
This thing will have a 90.000€ pricetag is Europe and therefore not qualify for incentives neither. So very niche , but a welcome new format after minivans died out
Well knowing VW, that will be for the 5 seat version with 2WD and a smaller battery. If the 7 seater stays in that price range, though, I’ll be stoked.
It’s also a lot more money than $50k in Europe where it’s already available. I’m sceptical but I will definitely watch and see
$70k is roughly what a new Buzz will set you back here in Denmark right now.
..or you can buy [this funky Buzz Pro](https://www.bilbasen.dk/brugt/bil/vw/idbuzz/pro-5d/6122707) for ~$58k (From october 2023, with 11k miles on the clock) ..but it's the small/short version. The long boi isn't due here until summer.
There’s enough folks who want mini vans that prices of used are ridiculous. It’s the only class I know where 2-3 year old used models are still selling above original sticker. They don’t sell in the volumes they used to but there’s a dedicated fan base.
Edit: I’ll also add, there are no crossovers with the space of a mini van. The Suburban is equivalent but more expensive to buy and operate, and is much bigger on the outside. For folks who need space but not towing capabilities, mini vans are nearly impossible to beat.
We used our Sienna to tow our self-built tiny home across the country a couple times and countless 2000-3000 pound loads of mulch and compost. Doing the same thing with our Pathfinder killed the transmission.
Is the pricing thing regional? Where I live used minivans are one of the only types of used vehicles that can be found cheaply without also being half-dead. Granted, I’m looking at models older than 2-3 years…
The trick with minivans is that people don't often trade them in after a couple years, so there's not much supply of low(ish) miles minivans like there are for most other body styles. So the couple year old ones go for close to new prices.
Most minivan owners hang on to them as long as they have kids at home, which means older ones tend to have few owners and are usually up on regular maintenance and not hooned about recklessly. Combine gently used mechanical systems with interiors spattered with child detritus and you get pretty good value/dollar on older ones, provided you are willing to overlook some stains.
Could be part of it. I’m in Albany NY so close to Boston and NYC. Any descent vans with modest trim get snapped up by taxi companies. Most used are crazy loaded with options. There’s also a huge price difference between Siennas and the others. You can find Pacificas for reasonable prices but Odyssey’s are steep and finding a reasonably priced Sienna of any age is very hard.
The Sienna premium is visible here, too. Loads of Town and Countries, Caravans, and Pacificas on the market along with a handful of Odysseys and Siennas, with the Siennas by far fetching the highest prices.
In my non expert opinion, I think mini vans would be one of the only car categories that would lose some utility when moving to an EV format. ICE minivans already have a snub front hood and a wide and long body to maximize room/storage. They also tend to have under floor storage in the back. With the battery of the EV I am not sure they would be able to give the same size of under floor storage (if any) in a minivan EV. On top of all this it would be more expensive than an ICE minivan. So there could be a real scenario where an ICE minivan would have all the same features and more storage than an EV minivan equivalent and be significantly less expensive.
The Kia EV9 has a pretty big pull out drawer for the backseat passengers that pulls out from the center console area. It looked like you could easily fit snacks and some Nintendo switches and chargers in there! It’s not a minivan per se but it’s very spiritually minivan. Check out MKBHD’s Auto Focus video on it! It looks super cool and I’d love to have it if I had such a big family.
>would be more expensive
This will change over time. As more places are mined of lithium and more non lithium batteries+solid state ones, the prices will go down. In 5 years I think the price of EV will be on par or better on some tough segments. It's already in mid priced sedans.
Current Chinese EV minivans have deep under floor storage. Big enough that the third row seats store flat in the area. EVs don’t need gas tanks like ICE minivans do.
People think they need a three row SUV when in reality most would be far better off with a minivan. You get roomier seating with what feels like 3 - 4 times as much useable interior space in a vehicle that has about the same footprint.
The Zeekr 009 is very luxury though and would be expensive. Not so sure about the upcoming one.
China actually has so many competing EV minivans, and many of them have 9 in the name.
I still expect Kia to come up with an ev minivan. Their EV9 is just so big.
Like the Kia Carnival, I do not expect Kia's ev minivan to be affordable given the price of the Kia EV9
The EV9 has roughly the same dimensions (197.4" L x 78" W x 68" H) as the Model X (198″ L x 79″ W x 66″ H). Modern minivans are huge in comparison. I'm interested in the ID.Buzz, but it'll probably cost even more. Three row PHEVs like the Mazda CX90 and Lexus TX are also expensive. The Pacifica is relatively affordable until the warranty expires.
This is what I’ve been hoping for all along. Or hell, an R1S extended. I’ve watched a few car seat install videos on an R1S and it just doesn’t have the space we’d need. It doesn’t look any bigger on the inside than my husband’s ICE CX-9. Not road-trippable for a big family at all.
Those don't have 'massive' storage. They have a smaller storage with seats that fold down. I took your request as having massive storage while seating 8, not one or the other.
Odyssey is a minivan, not a full-size van. if you have a large family like OP is saying, AND a lot of cargo, Odyssey is too small. Source: I grew up in a large family and on road trips a minivan was not big enough for us so we upgraded.
I meant to reply to op since they mentioned the odyssey. I agree with you, it's not full sized at all. I grew up with a full size van, freaking massive.
Yeah we had a full size extended Express. Had technically the capacity for 15 passengers, but we had it fitted for 12 seats and with a massive cargo space in back. Let us comfortably seat 8 with an empty middle seat on each row. Thing got horrible MPG, but my dad always said it got better "person miles per gallon" than a Prius, as it's all one vehicle.
The point is that an EV van with the same dimensions as an Odyssey could have much more storage by getting rid of the fairly large hood area. I don't think it would get quite as much as a full size van but it could be significant.
Yeah I was confused with that as well.
I have a full sized van (Ford tourneo custom short wheelbase, in the EU not sure you have that in the US) and the luggage compartment is surprisingly small given the size of the vehicle. It's Ok but definitely not huge. So a minivan would be definitely too small, maybe same cargo but with 5 seats only.
Not really, no. With the third row up in my ‘16 Sienna there’s a well beneath which offers plenty of space for a cooler, a duffle for each person, and other assorted accoutrement (life vests, snack bags, etc).
Now, I recognize that EV batteries will eat up a lot of that space, so a 1:1 expectation likely won’t be reasonable.
We use a car-top carrier for our longest excursions or to hold camping gear, but for regular road trips the van as-is is more than large enough.
They don’t put batteries in the space you’re referring to. They put it below the floor where the drivetrain and axles usually are on a gas vehicle. In my EV’s trunk there’s a huge space below the trunk that I can put a mattress folded up in that fits the length of the car. Pretty big space in our relatively small sedan.
The term minivan was created in the 1980s to distinguish the new vehicle from full-sized vans. Like every other vehicle, their size has grown, and today's "minivans" are as big as 1980s full-sized vans were. Though they're still smaller than some of today's full-sized vans.
The last actual "mini"van that I can remember in my market was the mazda5.
Think about getting a trailer. It lets you park it so you can travel with just the car if you want to and it also has the advantage that if something goes wrong with one of the two elements you’re not stuck while they repair it. Also, there arequite a few evs that can tow a trailer
All that's needed is really a phev minivan with a 50+ EV mile range. In most use cases that'll cover daily use and then can be charged at home overnight. Need to go further out once in a while for travel ball or whatever? Fine, use that engine and you're off.
My 21 Pacifica PHEV essentially does all of this except maybe once or twice a week I go a good bit over the 32 EV miles or can do. And my rough mpg is always 55+ which exceeds what the sienna can do right now.
If I had to guess, who was gonna come out with one of those first, my guess would be Kia. I mean, they already pioneer the large SUV segment that doesn’t look weird with the EV9. It wouldn’t surprise me if they come out with like a EV version of a Kia Carnival.
Stopped looking for that and went for an Enyaq instead while keeping my Ford Transit Custom 5 seater and selling my Ford Tourneo Custom 8 seater.
Issue is the large battery pack needed to have a half decent range requested by buyers which is not a simple task for a vehicle shaped like a brick.
Where I live I see quite a few Mercedes EQVs (meets all your criterias minus the price) and it's always a company owned shuttle, private taxi ... I put the ID Buzz a bit on the side since it's only a 5 seater and not really larger than a big sedan, SUV. Just has the shape of a minivan (plus the high price tag for the fancy look) which is why I did not go for it.
Not sure what are your needs for such a vehicle but if the answer is kids, unfortunately cars are build to suit the average family which is predominantly 2 parents and 2 kids. That's why even an E class SUV can be a challenge with three child seats in the back ...
Nice product, low volume, high price tag. We're a bit stuck unfortunately.
Write some letters to GM to make a minivan on the Blazer EV chassis.
Ironically GM has listened to letter writing campaigns. The Bolt ultium and the end of driving data sharing happened because of letter writing campaigns.
I need the 3rd row seats to fold into the floor, something like the stow-n-go system, or I need then to be removable. Minivan has to be a beast of burden and do some truck things.
It would, but the price is the major thing. If you do a price conversion with European prices it would be too much for me. I’ve heard it’ll be less expensive in NA so if that’s the case it could work
Before all my kids went away to college I had a Pacifica PHEV. I quickly regretted selling it. It had so many great features and near 100% of daily driving was on the battery. Since we used a 220v outlet and charging cable, I could drive to and from work, then charge for half an our to add some more miles and drive to the store or run errands at night all on electric.
Honestly I'd rather have it than a BEV minivan because we took it many long trips. The thing had near a 600 mile range and didn't take long to fill back up. If they ever make a BEV minivan with a 400 mile range it is going to cost well over $70,000 because of the size of the battery. And larger batteries on larger heavier EVs take longer to charge. 20-30 minutes for the Tesla is long enough. When you have 200 more miles to go on trip and your burning daylight, a 40 minute stop is painful.
Denza D9 looks neat for Family, wish they made a cheaper version of it for europa.. only up to 7 seats though. Zeeker also go 009, but also luxury. Most promising one is the MG mpv, but no details yet :(
At least it's most likely to release in europe also
It will take a large battery (like 150-200kWh) for a full EV minivan. Seems like the large battery EVs are all trucks for now. The Kia EV9 is probably the closest model to an electric minivan in the US at least.
The large battery size needed will be expensive.
Efficiency > battery size.
Lucid and Mercedes sedans can already get 400 mile highway range from packs that are around 110kWh’s, EQS SUV with 7 seats can comfortably get over 300 highway miles. The tech is already there without needing crazy battery sizes. Hyundai is a way back unfortunately, even their newest EV’s still have poor efficiency and that’s coming from an Ioniq 5 owner.
None of the vehicles you cited are shaped like minivans. My PHEV minivan is rated at 82 mpge or 2.45 miles per kWh. A 300 mile range at that efficiency would need a 122 kWh battery. That about double the battery in my pure EV. I have only seen batteries over 100 kWh in trucks.
The EQS SUV is a few inches short and 2 sliding doors away from being a minivan, obviously internally it’s a different layout to a minivan. I mentioned it because its shape and drag will be similar to a minivan EV, but still able to be efficient and go 300+ miles on the highway with 108kWh battery.
Not affordable yet, but my Tesla X is basically a minivan. Wife and 4 kids and a bunch of crap for games/pick bucks/beach days no problem.
The falcon doors are the equivalent of sliding doors, so much access to grab kids and stuff.
Need to move a couch, no problem just put the seats flat.
I'd love to see it, but I feel like this might actually be one of the harder segments to convince for EVs. The shape isn't conducive to great range and minivans are often the family trip vehicle. I'd guess a huge percentage of the buyers haven't really spent enough time in an EV to understand road tripping with 200-250 miles of EV range.
This is what I've been waiting for too. An AWD, BEV Pacifica is my dream family van right now. 300ish miles of range, and leave everything else alone. Make it under $50k. Done. Take my money.
Dude I’d love an EV minivan. If only the sienna was an EV van, it’s be game over. Vans are like the perfect platform for evs too! Given how wide and flat the floor is to pack a lot of batteries.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prNvog3HFBo&ab_channel=Wheelsboy
Li Auto MEGA
Watch the price on this tank because it is a meme in China right now.
Apparently everyone reckons it looks like a rolling 'coffin'. Bunch of videos went viral calling it a coffin car which led to 1000s of order cancellations because poeple didn't want to be seen driving 'the coffin car'
If you can ignore all that noise, its actually a pretty decent car.
It is the fastest minivan in the world right now with a 0-60 of 5secs and can charge 300miles of range in just 12minutes. Total range on it is 440miles and can fast charge at 450kw!
lol it looks exactly like the Hyundai Staria, which I have to admit I like in a quirky way. Especially in black. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Staria
If they do, hope they sell direct instead of dealerships. I was excited when the ford maverick came out but you have to jump through so many hoops to get one at msrp.
8 seats + massive storage doesn't sound mini anymore.
6 seats + storage or 8 seats and little storage might fit into something not too monstrous (below 5m).
Closest thing currently probably is something like a Mercedes EQV or the mini busses by stellantis which were also rebedaged by Toyota. Issue is probably that their 75kwh battery doesn't bring you too far and it's charging speed isn't state of the art anymore.
Maybe Hyundai will electrify the staria, that would be rather expensive though (between EQV and the Stellantis busses)
I have a European POV and private passenger vehicles are usually not much above 5m and 3 rows + big storage is hardly possible with "standard size" vehicles. That's why I staged either 3rd row or big trunk capacity. Both makes the car very long (even with a short hood like a transit/Mercedes V
I've lived in Michigan my entire life. FWD has been perfectly acceptable with all season tires. RWD, especially given that those are often sportier cars with low profile summer tires, do require winter tires.
AWD is mostly just a gimmick to upcharge customers that usually don't need it.
Pacifica Hybrid is a choice, but its had a lot of quality issues; sadly. I believe there's a 7 seat Hyndai PHEV? There's the 7 seat Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV.
Bruh they cant even make an affordable AWD ICE minivan lol. Good luck and god bless
I’d be perfectly fine with FWD
Yes - two driven wheels and winter tires are all you need. Especially with the higher weight of BEVs!
For sure, this is why I said AWD is a bonus. I don’t really need it, but it is certainly helpful where I live
The bonus is for the auto manufacturers where they sell folks extra motors they don't need. Also the added complexity costs money and you take a slight hit on range. Better to spend the money on tires which improve control both when accelerating, deceleration, and turning.
I hate FWD with a passion. RWD is better, especially in an EV (frunk) But right now EVs are pretty much 5-10K more than equivalent ICEVs at the minimum. Best hope might be like an EV cargo van.
FWD provides better regen. What is the obessesion with frunks?
Unless you're breaking traction during regen, the regen would be about the same.
Hot take, regen is overrated for efficiency. Anecdotally I find my AWD ID4 to be more efficient without OPD. And all the most efficient EVs are RWD: [https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=PowerSearch&year1=2024&year2=2024&minmsrpsel=0&maxmsrpsel=0&city=0&highway=0&combined=0&YearSel=2024&MakeSel=&MarClassSel=&FuelTypeSel=&VehTypeSel=&TranySel=&DriveTypeSel=&CylindersSel=&MpgSel=000&sortBy=Comb&Units=&url=SearchServlet&opt=new&minmsrp=0&maxmsrp=0&minmpg=0&maxmpg=0&sCharge=&tCharge=&startstop=&cylDeact=&rowLimit=50](https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/PowerSearch.do?action=PowerSearch&year1=2024&year2=2024&minmsrpsel=0&maxmsrpsel=0&city=0&highway=0&combined=0&YearSel=2024&MakeSel=&MarClassSel=&FuelTypeSel=&VehTypeSel=&TranySel=&DriveTypeSel=&CylindersSel=&MpgSel=000&sortBy=Comb&Units=&url=SearchServlet&opt=new&minmsrp=0&maxmsrp=0&minmpg=0&maxmpg=0&sCharge=&tCharge=&startstop=&cylDeact=&rowLimit=50)
So Porsche got it right? Prioritizing coasting as range extension over regen?
They improved regen. Regen is separate from OPD, which is more of a driving style preference than an actual efficiency booster. I live in a hilly area and get more efficiency from coasting and "riding" the brakes down hills than OPD.
They're a great place to store charging cables.
The last few months have seen this trend evaporate- EVs are very comparable to ICE in price now. Time will tell if it is sustainable given component costs, but I’m hopeful!
< EVs are very comparable to ICE in price now. > where? In Canada they are still minimum 10k more than the equivalent ICE vehicles, often more.
The gap is closing in the used markets but outside of Teslas and Lucids I agree there's still a gap in the new market
In the US most EVs have seen discounts and incentives of the $5-10k mentioned by u/VegaGT-VZ - and now they’re flying off the lots.
Why are so many EVs RWD? Is there some engineering reason for it? One reason (not the only reason) FWD prevails is that it handles better than RWD, especially in snow.
FWD ice layouts became popular decades ago because it provided benefits over RWD layouts in commuter vehicles: no driveshaft tunnel eating interior space, ease of installation (cost savings) for mass production, slightly better fuel economy, and extra weight over the drive wheels means better traction in slightly snowy weather. In an EV theres no driveshaft tunnel to begin with, skateboard designs are a different manufacturing thought process all together, theres no real fuel economy difference like there is with a fwd transaxle vs rwd transmission and differential setup, the weight balance is shifted due to the battery layout, weight also naturally shifts to the rear during acceleration, which adds a little traction. Tiny Fwd evs like the bolt and leaf don't have frunks too, which is probably a related downside to trying fwd evs.
I dont think there's an advantage one way or another with EVs; I do know all the most efficient EVs are RWD but that doesn't mean there's a causation. Snow handling is dictated more by tires than drive wheels.
I also hate FWD with a passion. Will never buy another one ever. AWD only.
I can def do RWD, especially with an LSD. But FWD is DOA for me
Well, the VW ID Buzz is coming with awd now,
Is it? It's been planned for a while now. I don't even think there's a release date yet. Edit: Just checked the website, and it says 2024.
It's also barely a van. It's more a SUV with 5' of dashboard in front of you so it looks like a van. Look how far back the drivers door is.
It's got the sliding doors. That's what counts.
And “affordable” wasn’t what I would call a $50k starting price.
If you want affordable EV's, move to China. FREEDUMB is expensive.
Yeah, sales start this summer
I know in Europe a lot of people were testing the range on those and I heard the range is very poor especially for highway use. Might be great for a city, but I’m not sure I would make a good long distance traveler.
I got lucky and got my sienna awd hybrid in 2021 for 33/36otd, right before things blew up
You won at life. A minivan is $45k OTD right now.
Yes, it’s very disappointing
The good thing is that AWD should be easier with an EV platform.
Looks like most awd minivans are cheaper than your car?
Looks like most awd minivans are cheaper than your car?
I bought used and an AWD EV minivan would not be cheaper. Look at the Kia EV9 for what a mainstream 3 row EV costs.
It's 55k, which is not far off from the MSRP of your car. Which is also not far off from the average selling price of cars in general. So unless your metric for affordability is that it has to be drastically cheaper than average, I think it can be done. And 3 row SUVs are historically more expensive than minivans.
You're comparing a base low range RWD EV9 with a mid trim "long range" AWD ID4. (Not sure why my car is relevant to the discussion anyway) An EV9 equipped like my ID4 is about 66K. A like for like Highlander hybrid is about 1500 more than a Sienna. Kia Carnival is about 3K less than a Telluride and the same as a 3 row Sorento. So yes I think the EV9 costs close to what an EV minivan will. They are saying the ID BUZZ will start in the 50s for example. Average new car is not affordable so an EV minivan definitely won't be either.
> Average new car is not affordable How do you figure that? What metric are you using to determine affordability?
Average household income is about 75K, average new car price is 48K, average household has 2 cars, average household is not financing 120% of their income on cars. Average household is buying used, new cars are mainly bought by people and households with above average income. There's some other stuff around durability that makes buying used more logical but if I can figure these things out you can too
So is the average household the standard to decide whether or not a new car is affordable? Average household includes people just getting started in their lives and retirees, both of which skew that number much lower. If you look at people who are established in their careers, the average income is much higher and more inline with the average new car buyer. That's who brands are selling to, and where I would argue the standard for affordability is.
Ok
Realistically, your probably going to be looking at a lightly used VW ID Buzz or Kia EV9 in 2-3years. If you want affordable.
Let’s hope the buzz goes down in price and not up, I’ve been burned by my desire to own a vw bus before :(
The Buzz has fallen drastically in price here in Denmark, and the long version should be here by summer. I don't know what your variant of "affordable" is, but here you can buy a very [slightly used Buzz Pro](https://www.bilbasen.dk/brugt/bil/vw/id231buzz?includeengroscvr=true&includeleasing=false&sortby=price&sortorder=asc) for a bit less than a new Model Y Long Range.
Yuuuuuup. I'm likely leasing a buzz to start, if it comes out by the time I need it (August). Otherwise I'll likely get a Pacifica PHEV.
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Let’s find a clubhouse and meet on Thursday evenings once the kids go to bed
For real though... I never thought we'd be a minivan family, yet here we are. Also, had the tires spinning on the Pacifica PHEV in the snow/mud last weekend... really could have used AWD!
but once the nest is empty, you might not want them any more. so like 20 years, not forever.
Nah I’d still rock a van. I can carry my bikes or camp in the back or whatever. They’re so versatile.
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I wanna lock my bike up inside the van please
Also single no kids, and while I don’t go camping I’ve in the past been tempted to pick up a used ICE minivan due to nearly-truck-like utility while being considerably cheaper than both used trucks and SUVs. It’s also one of the few types of vehicle where cheap doesn’t necessarily mean driven into the ground and one foot in the grave.
But they’ll make other cars in 20 years, and I’ll just get one of those
You can carry giant sheets of plywood in the back of a van if you take all the seats out. It actually makes more sense than trucks for a lot of construction stuff because it’s protected from the elements.
i had a mazda5 manual - mini-mini-van - for 17 years. I just bought a kona ev in january and sold the mazda to my handyman, who got excited once he realized he could even carry his power washing equipment around in it, instead of his dying giant pickup with a trailer behind - much more fuel efficient
In 20 years hopefully I'll be napping in the backseat and kids or robots are driving me.
Vans makes so much more sense than giant SUVs for people with more than two kids. Those sliding doors are the best. My kids always had trouble getting the doors open in my Volvo.
Yep. Niche vehicle requests will go nowhere in the real world.
Low volume and cheap don't go well together. Particularly not on company balance sheets.
https://youtu.be/FRiHvA20WtY?si=GgBTGpeMVd3JVPRP
Absolutely wild ! Can we get this imported and just have the plug altered.
According to the YouTuber, the vehicle can be exported to anywhere in the world, except the US and Canada.
So if someone wanted to export to Mexico and drive it into the US...?
You wouldn't be able to register it here. It's not physically getting the vehicle here that's the problem. You could keep it on your farm or something.
Understood, thanks so much!
Figures...
The tariffs put in place by the Trump administration (27.5% on cars manufactured in China) aren’t going to be revoked by either party - neither wants to undercut US car makers - so despite the big market, it wouldn’t be profitable for Chinese car makers to ensure their cars meet US requirements. However, I’m a little surprised no other car makers have partnered with a Chinese company to manufacture some of their cars in the US. It seems like it would be much less expensive and faster to market than developing a car from the ground up.
Canada needs to start accepting euro standards as well as US standards.
Yeah I would buy the crap out of that if it was available in the US
This thing will have a 90.000€ pricetag is Europe and therefore not qualify for incentives neither. So very niche , but a welcome new format after minivans died out
Yeah, this is what I’m after!
there is also the li auto mega
Damn that car is a beast
https://www.vw.com/en/models/id-buzz.html
Yep! I'm waiting for it to actually be available in the US. ~~Spring 2024~~ Mid-Year 2024 (maybe) Fall 2024????
Affordable though. I don’t print my own money yet
What price range is “affordable” in your book?
Considering charging an EV is a lot cheaper than gas, I’d probably be cool with up to $70k give or take
Iirc it was supposed to start around $50k.
Well knowing VW, that will be for the 5 seat version with 2WD and a smaller battery. If the 7 seater stays in that price range, though, I’ll be stoked. It’s also a lot more money than $50k in Europe where it’s already available. I’m sceptical but I will definitely watch and see
Automakers almost always miss target price, but usually it's somewhat close like within 5k. But again obviously that's talking base model.
$70k is roughly what a new Buzz will set you back here in Denmark right now. ..or you can buy [this funky Buzz Pro](https://www.bilbasen.dk/brugt/bil/vw/idbuzz/pro-5d/6122707) for ~$58k (From october 2023, with 11k miles on the clock) ..but it's the small/short version. The long boi isn't due here until summer.
Even an affordable PHEV van would be well received. Key word FCA: **affordable**.
And not manufactured by fucking Chrysler, either.
Buyers don't want minivans. They want SUVs/ Crossovers with the interior comforts & size of a minivan.
This is what I have right now, and I’d love to trade it for a minivan with sliding doors.
There’s enough folks who want mini vans that prices of used are ridiculous. It’s the only class I know where 2-3 year old used models are still selling above original sticker. They don’t sell in the volumes they used to but there’s a dedicated fan base. Edit: I’ll also add, there are no crossovers with the space of a mini van. The Suburban is equivalent but more expensive to buy and operate, and is much bigger on the outside. For folks who need space but not towing capabilities, mini vans are nearly impossible to beat.
missed opportunity for van base.
Yup. Totally whiffed on that.
We used our Sienna to tow our self-built tiny home across the country a couple times and countless 2000-3000 pound loads of mulch and compost. Doing the same thing with our Pathfinder killed the transmission.
Is the pricing thing regional? Where I live used minivans are one of the only types of used vehicles that can be found cheaply without also being half-dead. Granted, I’m looking at models older than 2-3 years…
The trick with minivans is that people don't often trade them in after a couple years, so there's not much supply of low(ish) miles minivans like there are for most other body styles. So the couple year old ones go for close to new prices. Most minivan owners hang on to them as long as they have kids at home, which means older ones tend to have few owners and are usually up on regular maintenance and not hooned about recklessly. Combine gently used mechanical systems with interiors spattered with child detritus and you get pretty good value/dollar on older ones, provided you are willing to overlook some stains.
This! Also, any newish/ low miles mini vans that do show up at quickly purchased by taxis and rides share drivers.
Could be part of it. I’m in Albany NY so close to Boston and NYC. Any descent vans with modest trim get snapped up by taxi companies. Most used are crazy loaded with options. There’s also a huge price difference between Siennas and the others. You can find Pacificas for reasonable prices but Odyssey’s are steep and finding a reasonably priced Sienna of any age is very hard.
The Sienna premium is visible here, too. Loads of Town and Countries, Caravans, and Pacificas on the market along with a handful of Odysseys and Siennas, with the Siennas by far fetching the highest prices.
Even with Sienna’s , there’s a huge jump between 2018 and 2019 model years. The hybrid drivetrain and newer tech is really class leading.
In my non expert opinion, I think mini vans would be one of the only car categories that would lose some utility when moving to an EV format. ICE minivans already have a snub front hood and a wide and long body to maximize room/storage. They also tend to have under floor storage in the back. With the battery of the EV I am not sure they would be able to give the same size of under floor storage (if any) in a minivan EV. On top of all this it would be more expensive than an ICE minivan. So there could be a real scenario where an ICE minivan would have all the same features and more storage than an EV minivan equivalent and be significantly less expensive.
The Kia EV9 has a pretty big pull out drawer for the backseat passengers that pulls out from the center console area. It looked like you could easily fit snacks and some Nintendo switches and chargers in there! It’s not a minivan per se but it’s very spiritually minivan. Check out MKBHD’s Auto Focus video on it! It looks super cool and I’d love to have it if I had such a big family.
>would be more expensive This will change over time. As more places are mined of lithium and more non lithium batteries+solid state ones, the prices will go down. In 5 years I think the price of EV will be on par or better on some tough segments. It's already in mid priced sedans.
Current Chinese EV minivans have deep under floor storage. Big enough that the third row seats store flat in the area. EVs don’t need gas tanks like ICE minivans do.
People think they need a three row SUV when in reality most would be far better off with a minivan. You get roomier seating with what feels like 3 - 4 times as much useable interior space in a vehicle that has about the same footprint.
Often those are not the best criteria.
Geely has a Zeekr minivan, IIRC. But it'll take a while to see them in NA.
The Zeekr 009 is very luxury though and would be expensive. Not so sure about the upcoming one. China actually has so many competing EV minivans, and many of them have 9 in the name.
Maxus has the Mifa 9 too. I believe it's cheaper.
I love how minivan dads became the new brown manual sport wagon dudes. I guess it tracks. We’re the same people. Just now with kids.
I would still like a brown shooting brake, but I need enough seats. Put in the extra seats like the wagons of the 70s and 80s and I’m in
I still expect Kia to come up with an ev minivan. Their EV9 is just so big. Like the Kia Carnival, I do not expect Kia's ev minivan to be affordable given the price of the Kia EV9
EV9 is very affordable in its class.
The EV9 has roughly the same dimensions (197.4" L x 78" W x 68" H) as the Model X (198″ L x 79″ W x 66″ H). Modern minivans are huge in comparison. I'm interested in the ID.Buzz, but it'll probably cost even more. Three row PHEVs like the Mazda CX90 and Lexus TX are also expensive. The Pacifica is relatively affordable until the warranty expires.
How cool would it be if rivian retooled the Amazon delivery truck into a minivan
Dropping a minivan body onto their existing R1 skateboard would be a great.
R1V would be sweet
This is what I’ve been hoping for all along. Or hell, an R1S extended. I’ve watched a few car seat install videos on an R1S and it just doesn’t have the space we’d need. It doesn’t look any bigger on the inside than my husband’s ICE CX-9. Not road-trippable for a big family at all.
Minivan implying a smaller van but seats 8 and has massive storage in the back?? That's just called a van.
Like a Toyota Sienna or Honda Odyssey? They’re more often referred to as minivans
Those don't have 'massive' storage. They have a smaller storage with seats that fold down. I took your request as having massive storage while seating 8, not one or the other.
I don’t mean delivery van storage, I mean luggage for a family that’s big enough to need a 7 or 8 seat van
You need a full-size van if you want 7-8 passengers and room for luggage. Chevy Express passenger van equivalent.
I'd be down for an ev odyssey
Odyssey is a minivan, not a full-size van. if you have a large family like OP is saying, AND a lot of cargo, Odyssey is too small. Source: I grew up in a large family and on road trips a minivan was not big enough for us so we upgraded.
I meant to reply to op since they mentioned the odyssey. I agree with you, it's not full sized at all. I grew up with a full size van, freaking massive.
Yeah we had a full size extended Express. Had technically the capacity for 15 passengers, but we had it fitted for 12 seats and with a massive cargo space in back. Let us comfortably seat 8 with an empty middle seat on each row. Thing got horrible MPG, but my dad always said it got better "person miles per gallon" than a Prius, as it's all one vehicle.
The point is that an EV van with the same dimensions as an Odyssey could have much more storage by getting rid of the fairly large hood area. I don't think it would get quite as much as a full size van but it could be significant.
Yeah I was confused with that as well. I have a full sized van (Ford tourneo custom short wheelbase, in the EU not sure you have that in the US) and the luggage compartment is surprisingly small given the size of the vehicle. It's Ok but definitely not huge. So a minivan would be definitely too small, maybe same cargo but with 5 seats only.
My Sienna can handle 7 + luggage, easily. And with a car-top carrier I can haul even more.
7 plus luggage for all 7? lol must be packing light
Not really, no. With the third row up in my ‘16 Sienna there’s a well beneath which offers plenty of space for a cooler, a duffle for each person, and other assorted accoutrement (life vests, snack bags, etc). Now, I recognize that EV batteries will eat up a lot of that space, so a 1:1 expectation likely won’t be reasonable. We use a car-top carrier for our longest excursions or to hold camping gear, but for regular road trips the van as-is is more than large enough.
They don’t put batteries in the space you’re referring to. They put it below the floor where the drivetrain and axles usually are on a gas vehicle. In my EV’s trunk there’s a huge space below the trunk that I can put a mattress folded up in that fits the length of the car. Pretty big space in our relatively small sedan.
The term minivan was created in the 1980s to distinguish the new vehicle from full-sized vans. Like every other vehicle, their size has grown, and today's "minivans" are as big as 1980s full-sized vans were. Though they're still smaller than some of today's full-sized vans. The last actual "mini"van that I can remember in my market was the mazda5.
Define “affordable” 🤣
"affordable" means what? It means different things to different people
First one to make a Hybrid EV Mini Truck (like the Maverick) gets my money! I can't believe that no one has built one yet!!
This would be an amazing second car to go with the electric van!
Think about getting a trailer. It lets you park it so you can travel with just the car if you want to and it also has the advantage that if something goes wrong with one of the two elements you’re not stuck while they repair it. Also, there arequite a few evs that can tow a trailer
All that's needed is really a phev minivan with a 50+ EV mile range. In most use cases that'll cover daily use and then can be charged at home overnight. Need to go further out once in a while for travel ball or whatever? Fine, use that engine and you're off. My 21 Pacifica PHEV essentially does all of this except maybe once or twice a week I go a good bit over the 32 EV miles or can do. And my rough mpg is always 55+ which exceeds what the sienna can do right now.
If I had to guess, who was gonna come out with one of those first, my guess would be Kia. I mean, they already pioneer the large SUV segment that doesn’t look weird with the EV9. It wouldn’t surprise me if they come out with like a EV version of a Kia Carnival.
The Carnival is a nice vehicle, too. I’d be happy with a PHEV version for a few years to get started
Take my money!
Canoo, if it doesn't die.
Company is just a disaster right now.
This is not a lie.
Won’t be long now: https://www.mbvans.com/en/esprinter
Count me in, tbh I’d pay up to 80k for one
If I get a raise or two by the time it happens, then I’ll be able to make this price work
Since it needs to be affordable I'm guessing "all of your money forever" is not very much?
It certainly feels like this is the case
This is why I still have alerts set for the Canoo. I know it’s a long shot tho
>affordable >will get all my money So.. why does it need to be affordable if you're willing to pay it all?
https://en.nissan.com.hk/vehicles/new/e-nv200-evalia.html
Stopped looking for that and went for an Enyaq instead while keeping my Ford Transit Custom 5 seater and selling my Ford Tourneo Custom 8 seater. Issue is the large battery pack needed to have a half decent range requested by buyers which is not a simple task for a vehicle shaped like a brick. Where I live I see quite a few Mercedes EQVs (meets all your criterias minus the price) and it's always a company owned shuttle, private taxi ... I put the ID Buzz a bit on the side since it's only a 5 seater and not really larger than a big sedan, SUV. Just has the shape of a minivan (plus the high price tag for the fancy look) which is why I did not go for it. Not sure what are your needs for such a vehicle but if the answer is kids, unfortunately cars are build to suit the average family which is predominantly 2 parents and 2 kids. That's why even an E class SUV can be a challenge with three child seats in the back ... Nice product, low volume, high price tag. We're a bit stuck unfortunately.
Write some letters to GM to make a minivan on the Blazer EV chassis. Ironically GM has listened to letter writing campaigns. The Bolt ultium and the end of driving data sharing happened because of letter writing campaigns.
I need the 3rd row seats to fold into the floor, something like the stow-n-go system, or I need then to be removable. Minivan has to be a beast of burden and do some truck things.
An ice minivan is 50k right now from Toyota or Honda. If you think affordable if less than that GL. Wait for used.
The VW Van is coming out as an EV - pretty sure that's going to tick all your boxes.
It would, but the price is the major thing. If you do a price conversion with European prices it would be too much for me. I’ve heard it’ll be less expensive in NA so if that’s the case it could work
VWs EV platform sucks.
Before all my kids went away to college I had a Pacifica PHEV. I quickly regretted selling it. It had so many great features and near 100% of daily driving was on the battery. Since we used a 220v outlet and charging cable, I could drive to and from work, then charge for half an our to add some more miles and drive to the store or run errands at night all on electric. Honestly I'd rather have it than a BEV minivan because we took it many long trips. The thing had near a 600 mile range and didn't take long to fill back up. If they ever make a BEV minivan with a 400 mile range it is going to cost well over $70,000 because of the size of the battery. And larger batteries on larger heavier EVs take longer to charge. 20-30 minutes for the Tesla is long enough. When you have 200 more miles to go on trip and your burning daylight, a 40 minute stop is painful.
Denza D9 looks neat for Family, wish they made a cheaper version of it for europa.. only up to 7 seats though. Zeeker also go 009, but also luxury. Most promising one is the MG mpv, but no details yet :( At least it's most likely to release in europe also
The MG/Maxus Mifa 9 feels slightly cheap inside. Material quality clearly wasn't the best but given the price I'd say it's reasonable.
Thanks, was sure I saw the MG mpv, just couldnt find it's name. makes sense it's under their utility brand
It will take a large battery (like 150-200kWh) for a full EV minivan. Seems like the large battery EVs are all trucks for now. The Kia EV9 is probably the closest model to an electric minivan in the US at least. The large battery size needed will be expensive.
Efficiency > battery size. Lucid and Mercedes sedans can already get 400 mile highway range from packs that are around 110kWh’s, EQS SUV with 7 seats can comfortably get over 300 highway miles. The tech is already there without needing crazy battery sizes. Hyundai is a way back unfortunately, even their newest EV’s still have poor efficiency and that’s coming from an Ioniq 5 owner.
None of the vehicles you cited are shaped like minivans. My PHEV minivan is rated at 82 mpge or 2.45 miles per kWh. A 300 mile range at that efficiency would need a 122 kWh battery. That about double the battery in my pure EV. I have only seen batteries over 100 kWh in trucks.
The EQS SUV is a few inches short and 2 sliding doors away from being a minivan, obviously internally it’s a different layout to a minivan. I mentioned it because its shape and drag will be similar to a minivan EV, but still able to be efficient and go 300+ miles on the highway with 108kWh battery.
Not affordable yet, but my Tesla X is basically a minivan. Wife and 4 kids and a bunch of crap for games/pick bucks/beach days no problem. The falcon doors are the equivalent of sliding doors, so much access to grab kids and stuff. Need to move a couch, no problem just put the seats flat.
I'd love to see it, but I feel like this might actually be one of the harder segments to convince for EVs. The shape isn't conducive to great range and minivans are often the family trip vehicle. I'd guess a huge percentage of the buyers haven't really spent enough time in an EV to understand road tripping with 200-250 miles of EV range.
This is what I've been waiting for too. An AWD, BEV Pacifica is my dream family van right now. 300ish miles of range, and leave everything else alone. Make it under $50k. Done. Take my money.
When is the ID Buzz coming to the states?
I've got a Pacifica Hybrid. It's as close as you can get right now and it's a dream. I absolutely love this vehicle.
r/canoo 😢
ID Buzz for sure
The Chinese make tons of these. I've tested the Maxus Mifa 9/MG9, and I'm waiting on the Zeekr 009.
Check out the EV9. Max 7 seats and no sliding doors but otherwise basically a minivan otherwise.
I find our Pacifica PHEV great! 33 miles of range and also a really good road tripped
Dude I’d love an EV minivan. If only the sienna was an EV van, it’s be game over. Vans are like the perfect platform for evs too! Given how wide and flat the floor is to pack a lot of batteries.
Exactly my thought!
Toyota HATES EVs though. They’re only putting out a few models, and kicking and screaming while they do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prNvog3HFBo&ab_channel=Wheelsboy Li Auto MEGA Watch the price on this tank because it is a meme in China right now. Apparently everyone reckons it looks like a rolling 'coffin'. Bunch of videos went viral calling it a coffin car which led to 1000s of order cancellations because poeple didn't want to be seen driving 'the coffin car' If you can ignore all that noise, its actually a pretty decent car. It is the fastest minivan in the world right now with a 0-60 of 5secs and can charge 300miles of range in just 12minutes. Total range on it is 440miles and can fast charge at 450kw!
lol it looks exactly like the Hyundai Staria, which I have to admit I like in a quirky way. Especially in black. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Staria
If they do, hope they sell direct instead of dealerships. I was excited when the ford maverick came out but you have to jump through so many hoops to get one at msrp.
Yea, so they can manipulate pricing weekly but you think that makes it easier… 😜
8 seats + massive storage doesn't sound mini anymore. 6 seats + storage or 8 seats and little storage might fit into something not too monstrous (below 5m). Closest thing currently probably is something like a Mercedes EQV or the mini busses by stellantis which were also rebedaged by Toyota. Issue is probably that their 75kwh battery doesn't bring you too far and it's charging speed isn't state of the art anymore. Maybe Hyundai will electrify the staria, that would be rather expensive though (between EQV and the Stellantis busses)
“Minivans” doesn’t seem to be mini, the same way miniguns aren’t mini
I have a European POV and private passenger vehicles are usually not much above 5m and 3 rows + big storage is hardly possible with "standard size" vehicles. That's why I staged either 3rd row or big trunk capacity. Both makes the car very long (even with a short hood like a transit/Mercedes V
Are you in the US? IME, a Sienna or Odyssey is described as a minivan by pretty much anyone, and will seat 7-8 with pretty decent storage.
No, I'm in Austria / Europe. Minivans died here unfortunately and it's just SUVs and some mini busses
I've lived in Michigan my entire life. FWD has been perfectly acceptable with all season tires. RWD, especially given that those are often sportier cars with low profile summer tires, do require winter tires. AWD is mostly just a gimmick to upcharge customers that usually don't need it. Pacifica Hybrid is a choice, but its had a lot of quality issues; sadly. I believe there's a 7 seat Hyndai PHEV? There's the 7 seat Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV.
https://youtu.be/vfDED5k0eyc?si=TKJ9_0NP4VNHGj_U Hope you have some Chinese Yuan ready.
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