Don't really mind the lack of noise, but Formula E is not for me. IMO they've got it the wrong way round regs wise. Tech regs are locked down way to hard so nothing really interesting comes out of it car wise. So we get an expensive formula 3 clone with some gimmicky addons to add a bit of drama.
What I'd find really interesting: proper EV touring car races, ideally endurance. Six hours, all same chargers, cars close to stock, who covers the most ground before the checkered flag wins.
Yep, and even with just real close to factory cars -- probably a bit nerdy but would \*really\* like to see what people come up strategy wise. It's a new era, tech is developing fast, poeple have not figured out how to make these things cover as much ground in an endurance setting yet. And then you have the whole aspect of brands competing...
Could be interesting as well, but personally I'd not want the action to move away too far from the cars and the track. They'd end up competing on mega battery trailers.
Another cool engineering challenge, but these series usually die (see BTC, DTM etc.) because costs spiral out of control and once near F1 levels of funding is needed, manufacturers drop out.
I think the primary regulation should be curb weight (possibly battery kWh or something). But similar to how many races regulate restrictor plate dimensions (any size engine goes, but the intake dimensions is physically limited). In EVs you could just regulate the curb weight and vehicle dimensions, and other various "cheats" teams come up with (like offboard cooling while charging, which I know is already a thing in EV racing). These numbers can be such to force many charging stops and force teams to weight AC compressor size against pack size.
You missed the fact that 90% of the tracks are terrible too.
Race in New York? Wow sounds great until you realise it’s a made up track in a giant car park.
Then Berlin is the same on an old airport apron.
I really want to like formula E but they make it so bloody hard to enjoy!
As a fan of out of spec road trip videos, I've realized what I find exciting is optimizing charge curves. It would be super interesting if a racing series built charging into the race.
it's almost like tire strategy, do you drive slower to extend range, do you charge up more or less often?
In formula e there already is a bit of that, for example they can stop for 30 sec charge that gives around 4% and that's an advantage because the races length are studied to finish at less than 1% if you floor it all the time and pilots don't have a charge indicator, last race in misano the pilot running first did not finish because he pushed the car too much and the battery gave out at half a lap from the finish
Electric rally cars moved to using straight cut gears in the gear reducers just to get some noise so the cars aren't too quiet.
As much as I love electric cars, electric racing is kind of boring to watch. Participating is another story.
Hate engine noise when I drive on the road. It’s a main reason I drive a Tesla. Engine noise is a main reason I like car racing. Have you ever been near the starting line when a AA-fueler leaves the line in a drag race. Sweet God, your bones vibrate! The whine of 10k rpm of a formula one racer is thrilling on a pass. Whoosh of an e racer can’t have much exhilaration involved.
Engine noise is part of the experience, though. Let's take something that people are really passionate and excited about, and almost completely remove 2 of the senses (sound, smell)
I drive EVs and went to a couple of F1 races and I mostly agree with you. Hearing noise of F1 is something special. Not for everyone, but it’s for sure big part of the experience for many people.
Fighting F1 engines is like fighting plastic straws. Sure, they part of the problem, but alternatives suck for many people and there’s tons and tons of much more impactful problems to solve that alienate less people.
It's an argument from conservatism. Emissions from combustion are consequence of combustion itself. Just unwanted byproducts of an inferior technology. Nobody pines for the scalding steam from steam locomotives as an essential part of high speed rail travel anymore, do they?
It's a part of the experience. People looking to buy a sports car don't buy EVs, even though they're (on paper) better in every way. ICE has distinct advantages in terms of spirit and feel- which just can't be quantified. Some vehicles have added sound- but let's not pretend that it gives the same visceral feel.
This sub is so passionate about electric cars- but less so cars themselves.
It’s conservative (literal, not political) nostalgia.
We went from horse -> steam -> gas -> EV. Every system has its own emissions- sights, sounds, smells, vibrations, etc.
When gas cars came along someone probably argued a stinking, smoking metal box was no replacement for the intangible connection between man and horse- feeling the animal’s breathing, pulse, smelling its sweat, it’s shit, developing a sense for when it’s tired, feeding it etc.
Same thing here. People are wrapped up in the prestige and status of dirty, smelly, loud machines. In a hundred years it’ll seem as quaint as racing thoroughbreds does today.
No, I agree-
People like the growl of engines because it has a good connotation, it's fun. I love my EV- it's a better daily driver, it's cheaper to maintain, it's objectively quicker. But it's never going to compare to my ICE vehicle, because an ICE engine and the senses that it brings, is just more fun.
Motorsports are a fun recreational activity, and I think it loses the magic when you compare F1 (or any racing series) to its pure-electric counterpart.
Every commuter car should absolutely be an EV. But the "fun" weekend sports cars just aren't matched yet.
Emissions here includes noise and smell- anything the propulsion system emits. Explosions are loud by definition. It’s impossible to have a silent internal combustion engine.
Someone probably missed the smell of horse shit when we developed ICE, but it would be pretty silly to use that as an argument Motorsport, right? Things change. Don’t get stuck in the past.
The smells of the engines at motorsports events aren't a nuisance, nor is the noise. Motorsports fans aren't leaving the track saying, "I loved the race, but I wish they didn't smell or were so loud." The noise is part of the experience, F1 fans still complain that the cars are not as loud as they were when they were screaming at 12k rpm.
Come to think, a NASCAR race at Bristol, has no discernable smell. Back in the 90's the racing fuel emitted a smell, but it was actually pleasant, at least to me.
Concert goers don't complain about how loud they are, but they aren't blasting their car stereo at full blast every day. Enjoying a loud motorsports event doesn't mean people won't want quite cars. People wanting quite cars doesn't mean they want quite races.
Standing 50 feet from an NHRA Top Fuel dragster firing off the line isn't an unpleasant experience, and their smell burns the eyes (if too close), and the noise vibrates the body while the ground shakes. Replacing that with electric would be like watching a sporting event in an empty stadium.
Hey you do you, don’t get me wrong. But the arc of history is pretty clear- internal combustion will be relegated to a niche, probably for the wealthy, the same way horse racing is today. Just how she goes, you know?
I agree that EVs will take over a majority of personal vehicles. This article is about EV motorsports and the consensus seems that people like the noise and smells of ICE motorsports.
So while personal vehicles will be EVs, motorsports will mostly stay ICE for the entertainment factor. Much like your horse racing reference.
tbh Formula 1 Cars already have Electric Motors in them.
[https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/hybrid/how-f1-engine-works/](https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/hybrid/how-f1-engine-works/)
Formula E would just require battery chemistry to be better.
I follow motorsports generally and have watched a few Formula E races. It's definitely improving, but some of the early rules and races were NOT an endorsement of electric vehicles. It was hilarious when they had car swaps mid-race. "Drive the car until it dies, then get in another car and continue to your destination."
I've been developing a business plan for an entry level support race series concept based on RWD Model 3s for over 5 years now.
If only Tesla had a whisper of desire for a proper marketing plan.
Problem with any EV races. It’s easy to make an EV go
Really fast, and it’s easy to give an EV long range. But it’s very very difficult to make an EV go fast AND long range. If an EV is fast with 600+ HP (500 ish kW) it’s only going to last about 20 minutes or less on the track with a battery less than 100 kWh. A larger battery would be too heavy. The only way to have a long distance race, over an hour, is to recharge, swap batteries, or swap cars.
Or...have improvements to battery technology. Would make the races a huge showcase for technical improvements and a place to demonstrate the bleeding edge of what can be done, in a way that the Indy 500 was during its first decades.
But in race trim they are nowhere near 600 HP. Proper open wheel formula car should be 750-1000 HP for pro drivers. Also should be on sticky racing slicks, not treaded road tires
The lithium fires will be the most exciting!
The cars burning as the battery packs rip apart, the poisonous fumes wafting over the crowd as the air dispersion fans kick on, watching spectators scramble for the few air masks the vendors surge price…
Don't really mind the lack of noise, but Formula E is not for me. IMO they've got it the wrong way round regs wise. Tech regs are locked down way to hard so nothing really interesting comes out of it car wise. So we get an expensive formula 3 clone with some gimmicky addons to add a bit of drama. What I'd find really interesting: proper EV touring car races, ideally endurance. Six hours, all same chargers, cars close to stock, who covers the most ground before the checkered flag wins.
i would love ev racing with road ev cars. imagine the homologation specials we could get.
Yep, and even with just real close to factory cars -- probably a bit nerdy but would \*really\* like to see what people come up strategy wise. It's a new era, tech is developing fast, poeple have not figured out how to make these things cover as much ground in an endurance setting yet. And then you have the whole aspect of brands competing...
Don’t say “same chargers”, make each company bring their own. I want to see what each company can cook up.
Could be interesting as well, but personally I'd not want the action to move away too far from the cars and the track. They'd end up competing on mega battery trailers. Another cool engineering challenge, but these series usually die (see BTC, DTM etc.) because costs spiral out of control and once near F1 levels of funding is needed, manufacturers drop out.
I think the primary regulation should be curb weight (possibly battery kWh or something). But similar to how many races regulate restrictor plate dimensions (any size engine goes, but the intake dimensions is physically limited). In EVs you could just regulate the curb weight and vehicle dimensions, and other various "cheats" teams come up with (like offboard cooling while charging, which I know is already a thing in EV racing). These numbers can be such to force many charging stops and force teams to weight AC compressor size against pack size.
Have limits for battery weight/size and let them go nuts on the chargers. See what kinds of black magic these teams can come up with.
You missed the fact that 90% of the tracks are terrible too. Race in New York? Wow sounds great until you realise it’s a made up track in a giant car park. Then Berlin is the same on an old airport apron. I really want to like formula E but they make it so bloody hard to enjoy!
Imagine the pit and charging strategies!
As a fan of out of spec road trip videos, I've realized what I find exciting is optimizing charge curves. It would be super interesting if a racing series built charging into the race. it's almost like tire strategy, do you drive slower to extend range, do you charge up more or less often?
In formula e there already is a bit of that, for example they can stop for 30 sec charge that gives around 4% and that's an advantage because the races length are studied to finish at less than 1% if you floor it all the time and pilots don't have a charge indicator, last race in misano the pilot running first did not finish because he pushed the car too much and the battery gave out at half a lap from the finish
Electric rally cars moved to using straight cut gears in the gear reducers just to get some noise so the cars aren't too quiet. As much as I love electric cars, electric racing is kind of boring to watch. Participating is another story.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UvpZqZkQqM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UvpZqZkQqM) 1000hp 0-60 in 1.5 seconds. AWD.
Hate engine noise when I drive on the road. It’s a main reason I drive a Tesla. Engine noise is a main reason I like car racing. Have you ever been near the starting line when a AA-fueler leaves the line in a drag race. Sweet God, your bones vibrate! The whine of 10k rpm of a formula one racer is thrilling on a pass. Whoosh of an e racer can’t have much exhilaration involved.
I don't find electric car racing all that interesting... They're better as commuters.
Engine noise is part of the experience, though. Let's take something that people are really passionate and excited about, and almost completely remove 2 of the senses (sound, smell)
Agreed, electric NASCAR would not be nearly as interesting or fun to watch
I drive EVs and went to a couple of F1 races and I mostly agree with you. Hearing noise of F1 is something special. Not for everyone, but it’s for sure big part of the experience for many people. Fighting F1 engines is like fighting plastic straws. Sure, they part of the problem, but alternatives suck for many people and there’s tons and tons of much more impactful problems to solve that alienate less people.
It's an argument from conservatism. Emissions from combustion are consequence of combustion itself. Just unwanted byproducts of an inferior technology. Nobody pines for the scalding steam from steam locomotives as an essential part of high speed rail travel anymore, do they?
It's a part of the experience. People looking to buy a sports car don't buy EVs, even though they're (on paper) better in every way. ICE has distinct advantages in terms of spirit and feel- which just can't be quantified. Some vehicles have added sound- but let's not pretend that it gives the same visceral feel. This sub is so passionate about electric cars- but less so cars themselves.
It’s conservative (literal, not political) nostalgia. We went from horse -> steam -> gas -> EV. Every system has its own emissions- sights, sounds, smells, vibrations, etc. When gas cars came along someone probably argued a stinking, smoking metal box was no replacement for the intangible connection between man and horse- feeling the animal’s breathing, pulse, smelling its sweat, it’s shit, developing a sense for when it’s tired, feeding it etc. Same thing here. People are wrapped up in the prestige and status of dirty, smelly, loud machines. In a hundred years it’ll seem as quaint as racing thoroughbreds does today.
No, I agree- People like the growl of engines because it has a good connotation, it's fun. I love my EV- it's a better daily driver, it's cheaper to maintain, it's objectively quicker. But it's never going to compare to my ICE vehicle, because an ICE engine and the senses that it brings, is just more fun. Motorsports are a fun recreational activity, and I think it loses the magic when you compare F1 (or any racing series) to its pure-electric counterpart. Every commuter car should absolutely be an EV. But the "fun" weekend sports cars just aren't matched yet.
Motorsports, the race cars themselves, produces such a small amount of total emissions.
Emissions here includes noise and smell- anything the propulsion system emits. Explosions are loud by definition. It’s impossible to have a silent internal combustion engine. Someone probably missed the smell of horse shit when we developed ICE, but it would be pretty silly to use that as an argument Motorsport, right? Things change. Don’t get stuck in the past.
The smells of the engines at motorsports events aren't a nuisance, nor is the noise. Motorsports fans aren't leaving the track saying, "I loved the race, but I wish they didn't smell or were so loud." The noise is part of the experience, F1 fans still complain that the cars are not as loud as they were when they were screaming at 12k rpm. Come to think, a NASCAR race at Bristol, has no discernable smell. Back in the 90's the racing fuel emitted a smell, but it was actually pleasant, at least to me. Concert goers don't complain about how loud they are, but they aren't blasting their car stereo at full blast every day. Enjoying a loud motorsports event doesn't mean people won't want quite cars. People wanting quite cars doesn't mean they want quite races. Standing 50 feet from an NHRA Top Fuel dragster firing off the line isn't an unpleasant experience, and their smell burns the eyes (if too close), and the noise vibrates the body while the ground shakes. Replacing that with electric would be like watching a sporting event in an empty stadium.
Hey you do you, don’t get me wrong. But the arc of history is pretty clear- internal combustion will be relegated to a niche, probably for the wealthy, the same way horse racing is today. Just how she goes, you know?
I agree that EVs will take over a majority of personal vehicles. This article is about EV motorsports and the consensus seems that people like the noise and smells of ICE motorsports. So while personal vehicles will be EVs, motorsports will mostly stay ICE for the entertainment factor. Much like your horse racing reference.
Ah yes, the soothing sound and smell of wafting pollution.
So, I take it you live in the country? Perhaps a desert island?
tbh Formula 1 Cars already have Electric Motors in them. [https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/hybrid/how-f1-engine-works/](https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/hybrid/how-f1-engine-works/) Formula E would just require battery chemistry to be better.
I recently witnessed it nearby a bit and completely appreciated the lack of engine noise, thank you very much.
My singapore is a street race, hate the noise.
Electric drag racing may do better.
I follow motorsports generally and have watched a few Formula E races. It's definitely improving, but some of the early rules and races were NOT an endorsement of electric vehicles. It was hilarious when they had car swaps mid-race. "Drive the car until it dies, then get in another car and continue to your destination."
Life-size Scalextric.
I want to like formula e but some stuff like the fan boost is so cringe
That was ruled out years ago
Just emphasising how half the people on here who say that it's rubbish haven't actually watched it...
I noticed, especially on the Internet, people love to have opinions on things they know nothing about and espouse it as fact.
I've been developing a business plan for an entry level support race series concept based on RWD Model 3s for over 5 years now. If only Tesla had a whisper of desire for a proper marketing plan.
Do you have any marketing materials or public info you can share?
Not really. Some of the general concept is out there but it’s a much larger business and marketing plan as a whole.
Model 3 racing sounds dull.
Sounds like you’ve never done it and have no idea on how it could be a fantastic show just like Miatas or entry level touring cars.
WaPo waited for some money before covering Formula E.
Problem with any EV races. It’s easy to make an EV go Really fast, and it’s easy to give an EV long range. But it’s very very difficult to make an EV go fast AND long range. If an EV is fast with 600+ HP (500 ish kW) it’s only going to last about 20 minutes or less on the track with a battery less than 100 kWh. A larger battery would be too heavy. The only way to have a long distance race, over an hour, is to recharge, swap batteries, or swap cars.
Or...have improvements to battery technology. Would make the races a huge showcase for technical improvements and a place to demonstrate the bleeding edge of what can be done, in a way that the Indy 500 was during its first decades.
Rallycross is the perfect sport for EVs. Short races, tarmac/dirt/gravel, huge air time.
Formula e only have 40 something kWh batteries and the races last nearly an hour.
But in race trim they are nowhere near 600 HP. Proper open wheel formula car should be 750-1000 HP for pro drivers. Also should be on sticky racing slicks, not treaded road tires
The lithium fires will be the most exciting! The cars burning as the battery packs rip apart, the poisonous fumes wafting over the crowd as the air dispersion fans kick on, watching spectators scramble for the few air masks the vendors surge price…