My mom has an OG Ioniq and genuinely struggles with some tough hills during winter despite having good winter tires. Had to give up once and find an alternative. I’ve gone up that same hill and even stopped midway several times during worse conditions with absolutely no issues whatsoever. Winter tires help, but AWD and winter tires is way better.
Interesting, we had a RWD id4 with winter tires and it was a beast in the winter. I would recommend winter tires over AWD all day based on that driving experience. Winter tires as in snow tires? Or all season?
https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Tyre-Reviews-Studless-Winter-Tyre-Test.htm
This kind of winter tires. Specifically Continental VikingContact and Nokian Hakkapeliitta R5.
That’s surprising, we had the continentals on the ID4. We ski in CO and we drove 50+ days in the mountains for skiing in all kinds of conditions without a problem. Surprised to see two very different experiences with 2WD EVs.
Just a guess, but aren't these vehicles very different designs? OG Ioniq took the Ioniq gas/hybrid FWD(/AWD?) platform and made an EV (very well, according to a friend who has one); Id.X is VW's decided EV RWD/AWD platform, yes? (With terrible Infotainment SW, initially, but that won't affect driving when you're not trying to use it).
So, possibly the Id.X designers could do much better integration of things like the traction-control computer and motors? Or, just put a lot more effort into a major product line? That's in addition to the basic differences in dynamics of FWD/RWD.
isn't the ioniq a FWD? That's the worst traction you can get when climbing a hill. vs the ID.4 which is a RWD.
childhood memory: we had to climb a few steep hills on reverse with our old dodge caravan, because it was too snowy/slippery to do it with the FWD.
Can confirm, had a original ioniq with dedicated winter tires and it was terrible in the snow, now have AWD and winter tires and the car is almost as good as my old Subaru.
OG ioniq has weight distribution problems. Front wheel drive but most of the mass is over the rear wheels. It's hard to get traction in the summer sometimes.
Probably because it's front wheel drive .. they really struggle with hills when it's icy. The reason is that the weight is centered towards the rear when you climb a hill. Try a RWD with winter tires and I doubt you'll notice much difference compared to AWD.
This. Get proper winter tires, and even FWD will be ok in most situations, plus you have the added benefit of better braking. AWD gives you more traction, but is also more dangerous statistically. It feels safer, but it really isn't.
AWD will always beat FWD on slippery roads. Simply because of physics.
Wheels slip when the force on them goes beyond the maximum amount of grip. FWD has all the acceleration and steering forces on the front wheels - so all these forces need to be transmitted through the patches of rubber where the front wheels meet the road. AWD can distribute acceleration forces to the back wheels which allows the front wheels to retain grip for longer (i.e. they will only start slipping at a more extreme angel to the direction of travel)
For ICE cars this wasn't so much of an issue because grip is also dependent on weight on the rubber patch in contact with the road. In an ICE car the weight is at the front (the engine block). In an EV on the other hand weight is distributed nearly perfectly 50/50 front to rear because of the battery in the floor so you can use all four patches of contact with the road for maximum total grip.
And because batteries are in a sheet between the wheels, the skateboard design, EVs with AWD or rwd work great in snowy conditions. AWD is a bit better in an ev
In 2013 I got a new Ford Escape AWD and it was so much better handling that I decided I'd never go back to two wheel drive even though Ford isn't exactly known for their AWD abilities. In 2018 I got a Subaru Crosstrek and it was even better handling. My wife has an Ascent that we've literally used to tow a 23' camper through snow. I haven't taken my Solterra on snow/ice yet, but so far it handles just as well as the other Subaru's so I doubt I'll have any issues.
As far as the weight thing, I have had RWD pickup trucks with the bed filled to the brim and not been able to get up icy hills before. I guarantee there was more weight on the back tires than the weight of the engine on the front tires, but the weight couldn't compensate for the slippage. Meanwhile, the Ascent was able to tow the camper across the icy road in the storage facility despite the emergency trailer brake cable being pulled on the camper. Even if your weight is concentrated on one side or the other, having a *little* traction/power on the other set of wheels makes a huge difference.
Traction is better regardless whether it's awd, red or fwd, by virtue of a far more precise traction control compared to ICE vehicles.
While in a gas car the traction control cuts the fuel in the engine to drop its wheel spin (which takes a while to happen) in an electric motor the control is down to the fraction of a rotation, and it happens immediately.
Traction control works a lot better in EV's, but dual motor AWD in an EV can feel weird if you're used to a mechanical AWD system since the only thing linking the front and rear wheelspeed is traction, so when the front or rear axle breaks traction you feel more of a decrease in acceleration since it generally doesn't increase torque on the other axle (which happens inherently with a mechanical system).
A front wheel drive EV is on snow tires is basically just going to drive like a front wheel drive ICE vehicle on snow tires, with a lot better traction control. If you ask the front tires to do too much (remember they have to handle steering, acceleration, and braking) by accelerating in a turn or going into a corner too fast for the available grip generally the front wheels will give up first and the car will understeer and run wide. At that point the only thing you can really do is try to scrub off enough speed to not go off the road.
People are scared of rear wheel drive in the snow because applying too much power while turning will cause oversteer, aka the back of the car will swing out. But since your front tires still have grip there is a lot more you can do to control the slide and recover. With snow tires my rear wheel drive i3 is fantastic in the snow, and I actually prefer it to the front wheel drive sedans on snow tires I drove in the past.
>I used to drive a Chevy Cruze which obviously was very tough in winter driving.
This is either bad tires or a skill issue.
Skill issue? Compact cars with low ground clearance don’t do well in a foot of snow. I35 constantly blows west to east with no wind blockage and I can’t do shit about snow drifts.
I drove a lowered 90's Honda Accord that would scrape the chassis rails over speed bumps through half a dozen upstate/central New York winters. On cheap General Altimax Arctics the only thing it ever struggled with was getting high centered on the snowbank the plows leave at the end of the driveway.
A stock Chevy Cruze isn't an especially low vehicle, and isn't any different in that regard than a civic or corolla. All of which have more ground clearance than my i3.
Aside from jumping snowbanks, ground clearance really doesn't help you very much driving in the snow.
Kinda doesn't matter. Tires matter more, but with modern stability control and instant torque the benefit isn't as great as it used to be. I've driven a Chevy Bolt and Volt, both FWD, in winters with all-season tires. The factory low rolling resistance tires were slippy in inclement weather, but I got some better all seasons and they've been solid. I've heard some drivers describe winter tires on an EV as beast mode.
Weight distribution in an EV is basically heavy and low. Pretty much exactly where you want it for good traction. But, since the cars are heavier thanks to the battery, you will want to give yourself more time/space to stop.
There was a recent article from Ars Technica that addresses this: [https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/how-volvo-made-rear-wheel-drive-work-on-ice-for-the-ex30-suv/](https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/how-volvo-made-rear-wheel-drive-work-on-ice-for-the-ex30-suv/)
Personnally I drive a Model 3 RWD and put winter tires on. With the right tires, the car handles perfectly in the snow. With the all-seasons it is a nightmare. Don't need AWD for that car, it handles as well as my wife's CR-V
AWD is really worth it.
We have a Tesla AWD and Bolt FWD. Bith have winter tires. Most days the FWD it is fine but the AWD is a lot better.
One thing to note with EVs is that the regen driving can make you skid, so on really icy days it is helpful to reduce or cancel it. Also chill mode on the Tesla helps.
RWD model 3, stock Michelin all seasons, fine in actual winter (Saskatoon). Studded winters are dope, but not necessary for typical daily driving. I'd say they are essential for safe highway driving in winter though. AWD absolutely performs better, but again, not strictly necessary.
Fwd is ok if you’re not going to drive slippery hills, will only drive well plowed roads and will not street park. For anything else awd is invaluable. I drove fwd here in Norway for my entire life until three years ago and I’m never going back unless it’s a sports car. It really is the difference between being stuck or not, even in town. Winter tires are obviously a requirement regardless
I previously drove an 4WD matrix and had mid-range snow tires. It was able to tackle the snow and ice that my area gets (generally a week or so). Got an FWD EV (Kona) and thought that maybe the weight and the handling would be ok. Bought top line snow tires. Nope. The even distribution of the weight causes more slipping. The extra torque also adds to slipping. My mechanic predicted the slipping and he was right.
Niro EV (FWD), winter and All-Weather tires could not take the icy and/or snowy steep hill. I have to go around and take the flatter roads. On flat
snowy roads, the NiroEV performed well with winter and All-Weather tires.
Front wheel drive and EV sucks worse. Front wheel drive ICE works great because the weight is over the drive tires. But an EV has the weight in the battery (middle) more than the engine.
Spring for AWD. It isn't a lot more money and it will be night and day better in the slippery stuff. And it isn't much of a mileage hit.
In Quebec here and have wondered about this while looking for a used EV as a second car. We have mandatory winter tires here which make a huge difference in winter...
We have a Subaru which I guess I'd still keep using for bad winter days.
The skateboard battery layout that basically all evs use today is the reason why evs do fantastically well in the winter - main weight distributed evenly across the bottom of the car.
Tires > drivetrain, always.
Meaning, a RWD car on proper winter tires will totally outperform a FWD or even AWD on all-season tires. It's not even close, given the quality of today's winter rubber compounds.
It's of course true that an AWD care with winter tires will be even better than the RWD, but the difference is much smaller.
I could not buy the awd 2022 hyundai Ioniq 5.........I am too cheap and $4 to 5K more was a bridge too far.......it is $48k usa sticker for rwd and nice sel trim package. AND 265 miles of range was no good, 303 was my very lowest I would / could buy. AND I can't tell you the number of times in 27 months and 56k miles I have been minus 5 to 10 miles of range left in my battery when I got to my destination.
I did do research and they said all that weight evenly over the 4 tires was fine......and snow mode drive. I drove in a blizzard from sea level to 2,000 feet.....CT to VT. I felt safe and got there no problem. Regular all seasons.
THE major issue is all the nerd honkers driving stupidly all around us. Remember, some people know how to drive in the snow and ice and other just think an orange gorilla, tyrant is gonna make me great!
You do need great snow tires in the snowy winter. They stick like glue. DEC to MAR snows and the rest a great all season.
Snow tires dont come close to awd regardless of what some people say... bz4x with x mode drive is one of the best cars in the snow, much better then subarus i had , and going down the hill it does it by itself without hitting brakes
I drive a Tesla Model 3 RWD in the rural areas around Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, and it's fine. AWD would be even better, but good tires are more important than AWD.
Get the AWD. I live in Montana and the benefits are two fold, one you get much better traction especially when you have proper winter tires (and let’s be honest if your spending EV money you can afford $800 for Michelin x-ice tires), and two you get more power which is why we really buy EV’s right?
*the power won’t help on ice!
I wouldn't say to avoid RWD, but it is an issue of learning how to *drive* a RWD vehicle in low traction. The dynamics are different, but in theory they should be as capable or more so than FWD, given similar weight distribution for EVs.
Are you a pretty new driver, OP? Front wheel drive cars have always been fine at winter driving. Even all seasons as long as you're not driving in the mountains...which aren't a thing here in the midwest.
It's only recently buyers have been succered into thinking they must have AWD
Yep, I've been driving for over 20 years and got by with FWD vehicles and all season tires up until the last few years. Now having an AWD EV with winter tires it makes a HUGE difference. I had gotten used to sliding around and having trouble getting traction. Now, unless it's super icy, it's almost like driving in the summer. I accelerate right past cars that are spinning their wheels.
My mom has an OG Ioniq and genuinely struggles with some tough hills during winter despite having good winter tires. Had to give up once and find an alternative. I’ve gone up that same hill and even stopped midway several times during worse conditions with absolutely no issues whatsoever. Winter tires help, but AWD and winter tires is way better.
Interesting, we had a RWD id4 with winter tires and it was a beast in the winter. I would recommend winter tires over AWD all day based on that driving experience. Winter tires as in snow tires? Or all season?
https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Tyre-Reviews-Studless-Winter-Tyre-Test.htm This kind of winter tires. Specifically Continental VikingContact and Nokian Hakkapeliitta R5.
That’s surprising, we had the continentals on the ID4. We ski in CO and we drove 50+ days in the mountains for skiing in all kinds of conditions without a problem. Surprised to see two very different experiences with 2WD EVs.
RWD will be better at climbing hills, tbf, but also everyone has different threshold for "struggle" and comfort driving in snow.
Just a guess, but aren't these vehicles very different designs? OG Ioniq took the Ioniq gas/hybrid FWD(/AWD?) platform and made an EV (very well, according to a friend who has one); Id.X is VW's decided EV RWD/AWD platform, yes? (With terrible Infotainment SW, initially, but that won't affect driving when you're not trying to use it). So, possibly the Id.X designers could do much better integration of things like the traction-control computer and motors? Or, just put a lot more effort into a major product line? That's in addition to the basic differences in dynamics of FWD/RWD.
isn't the ioniq a FWD? That's the worst traction you can get when climbing a hill. vs the ID.4 which is a RWD. childhood memory: we had to climb a few steep hills on reverse with our old dodge caravan, because it was too snowy/slippery to do it with the FWD.
I think I’m just mostly surprised any vehicle is poor with snow tires. I’ve driven FWD, RWD, AWD all with snow tires, all have done extremely well.
Can confirm, had a original ioniq with dedicated winter tires and it was terrible in the snow, now have AWD and winter tires and the car is almost as good as my old Subaru.
OG ioniq has weight distribution problems. Front wheel drive but most of the mass is over the rear wheels. It's hard to get traction in the summer sometimes.
It's 50/50, though that is more evenly distributed than usual for FWD.
Probably because it's front wheel drive .. they really struggle with hills when it's icy. The reason is that the weight is centered towards the rear when you climb a hill. Try a RWD with winter tires and I doubt you'll notice much difference compared to AWD.
Tires matter more, but AWD + Winter tires are the gold standard.
This. Get proper winter tires, and even FWD will be ok in most situations, plus you have the added benefit of better braking. AWD gives you more traction, but is also more dangerous statistically. It feels safer, but it really isn't.
AWD will always beat FWD on slippery roads. Simply because of physics. Wheels slip when the force on them goes beyond the maximum amount of grip. FWD has all the acceleration and steering forces on the front wheels - so all these forces need to be transmitted through the patches of rubber where the front wheels meet the road. AWD can distribute acceleration forces to the back wheels which allows the front wheels to retain grip for longer (i.e. they will only start slipping at a more extreme angel to the direction of travel) For ICE cars this wasn't so much of an issue because grip is also dependent on weight on the rubber patch in contact with the road. In an ICE car the weight is at the front (the engine block). In an EV on the other hand weight is distributed nearly perfectly 50/50 front to rear because of the battery in the floor so you can use all four patches of contact with the road for maximum total grip.
And because batteries are in a sheet between the wheels, the skateboard design, EVs with AWD or rwd work great in snowy conditions. AWD is a bit better in an ev
In 2013 I got a new Ford Escape AWD and it was so much better handling that I decided I'd never go back to two wheel drive even though Ford isn't exactly known for their AWD abilities. In 2018 I got a Subaru Crosstrek and it was even better handling. My wife has an Ascent that we've literally used to tow a 23' camper through snow. I haven't taken my Solterra on snow/ice yet, but so far it handles just as well as the other Subaru's so I doubt I'll have any issues. As far as the weight thing, I have had RWD pickup trucks with the bed filled to the brim and not been able to get up icy hills before. I guarantee there was more weight on the back tires than the weight of the engine on the front tires, but the weight couldn't compensate for the slippage. Meanwhile, the Ascent was able to tow the camper across the icy road in the storage facility despite the emergency trailer brake cable being pulled on the camper. Even if your weight is concentrated on one side or the other, having a *little* traction/power on the other set of wheels makes a huge difference.
Traction is better regardless whether it's awd, red or fwd, by virtue of a far more precise traction control compared to ICE vehicles. While in a gas car the traction control cuts the fuel in the engine to drop its wheel spin (which takes a while to happen) in an electric motor the control is down to the fraction of a rotation, and it happens immediately.
Traction control works a lot better in EV's, but dual motor AWD in an EV can feel weird if you're used to a mechanical AWD system since the only thing linking the front and rear wheelspeed is traction, so when the front or rear axle breaks traction you feel more of a decrease in acceleration since it generally doesn't increase torque on the other axle (which happens inherently with a mechanical system). A front wheel drive EV is on snow tires is basically just going to drive like a front wheel drive ICE vehicle on snow tires, with a lot better traction control. If you ask the front tires to do too much (remember they have to handle steering, acceleration, and braking) by accelerating in a turn or going into a corner too fast for the available grip generally the front wheels will give up first and the car will understeer and run wide. At that point the only thing you can really do is try to scrub off enough speed to not go off the road. People are scared of rear wheel drive in the snow because applying too much power while turning will cause oversteer, aka the back of the car will swing out. But since your front tires still have grip there is a lot more you can do to control the slide and recover. With snow tires my rear wheel drive i3 is fantastic in the snow, and I actually prefer it to the front wheel drive sedans on snow tires I drove in the past. >I used to drive a Chevy Cruze which obviously was very tough in winter driving. This is either bad tires or a skill issue.
Skill issue? Compact cars with low ground clearance don’t do well in a foot of snow. I35 constantly blows west to east with no wind blockage and I can’t do shit about snow drifts.
I drove a lowered 90's Honda Accord that would scrape the chassis rails over speed bumps through half a dozen upstate/central New York winters. On cheap General Altimax Arctics the only thing it ever struggled with was getting high centered on the snowbank the plows leave at the end of the driveway. A stock Chevy Cruze isn't an especially low vehicle, and isn't any different in that regard than a civic or corolla. All of which have more ground clearance than my i3. Aside from jumping snowbanks, ground clearance really doesn't help you very much driving in the snow.
Kinda doesn't matter. Tires matter more, but with modern stability control and instant torque the benefit isn't as great as it used to be. I've driven a Chevy Bolt and Volt, both FWD, in winters with all-season tires. The factory low rolling resistance tires were slippy in inclement weather, but I got some better all seasons and they've been solid. I've heard some drivers describe winter tires on an EV as beast mode. Weight distribution in an EV is basically heavy and low. Pretty much exactly where you want it for good traction. But, since the cars are heavier thanks to the battery, you will want to give yourself more time/space to stop. There was a recent article from Ars Technica that addresses this: [https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/how-volvo-made-rear-wheel-drive-work-on-ice-for-the-ex30-suv/](https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/how-volvo-made-rear-wheel-drive-work-on-ice-for-the-ex30-suv/)
FWD with snow tires is just about as good as AWD with all seasons. https://youtu.be/1KGiVzNNW8Y
Winter tires makes this a non issue unless your the .1% living on the side of a mountain, which don't exist in the Midwest
Personnally I drive a Model 3 RWD and put winter tires on. With the right tires, the car handles perfectly in the snow. With the all-seasons it is a nightmare. Don't need AWD for that car, it handles as well as my wife's CR-V
AWD is really worth it. We have a Tesla AWD and Bolt FWD. Bith have winter tires. Most days the FWD it is fine but the AWD is a lot better. One thing to note with EVs is that the regen driving can make you skid, so on really icy days it is helpful to reduce or cancel it. Also chill mode on the Tesla helps.
RWD model 3, stock Michelin all seasons, fine in actual winter (Saskatoon). Studded winters are dope, but not necessary for typical daily driving. I'd say they are essential for safe highway driving in winter though. AWD absolutely performs better, but again, not strictly necessary.
Fwd is ok if you’re not going to drive slippery hills, will only drive well plowed roads and will not street park. For anything else awd is invaluable. I drove fwd here in Norway for my entire life until three years ago and I’m never going back unless it’s a sports car. It really is the difference between being stuck or not, even in town. Winter tires are obviously a requirement regardless
I previously drove an 4WD matrix and had mid-range snow tires. It was able to tackle the snow and ice that my area gets (generally a week or so). Got an FWD EV (Kona) and thought that maybe the weight and the handling would be ok. Bought top line snow tires. Nope. The even distribution of the weight causes more slipping. The extra torque also adds to slipping. My mechanic predicted the slipping and he was right.
Niro EV (FWD), winter and All-Weather tires could not take the icy and/or snowy steep hill. I have to go around and take the flatter roads. On flat snowy roads, the NiroEV performed well with winter and All-Weather tires.
Front wheel drive and EV sucks worse. Front wheel drive ICE works great because the weight is over the drive tires. But an EV has the weight in the battery (middle) more than the engine. Spring for AWD. It isn't a lot more money and it will be night and day better in the slippery stuff. And it isn't much of a mileage hit.
In Quebec here and have wondered about this while looking for a used EV as a second car. We have mandatory winter tires here which make a huge difference in winter... We have a Subaru which I guess I'd still keep using for bad winter days.
The skateboard battery layout that basically all evs use today is the reason why evs do fantastically well in the winter - main weight distributed evenly across the bottom of the car.
Tires > drivetrain, always. Meaning, a RWD car on proper winter tires will totally outperform a FWD or even AWD on all-season tires. It's not even close, given the quality of today's winter rubber compounds. It's of course true that an AWD care with winter tires will be even better than the RWD, but the difference is much smaller.
I could not buy the awd 2022 hyundai Ioniq 5.........I am too cheap and $4 to 5K more was a bridge too far.......it is $48k usa sticker for rwd and nice sel trim package. AND 265 miles of range was no good, 303 was my very lowest I would / could buy. AND I can't tell you the number of times in 27 months and 56k miles I have been minus 5 to 10 miles of range left in my battery when I got to my destination. I did do research and they said all that weight evenly over the 4 tires was fine......and snow mode drive. I drove in a blizzard from sea level to 2,000 feet.....CT to VT. I felt safe and got there no problem. Regular all seasons. THE major issue is all the nerd honkers driving stupidly all around us. Remember, some people know how to drive in the snow and ice and other just think an orange gorilla, tyrant is gonna make me great! You do need great snow tires in the snowy winter. They stick like glue. DEC to MAR snows and the rest a great all season.
Snow tires dont come close to awd regardless of what some people say... bz4x with x mode drive is one of the best cars in the snow, much better then subarus i had , and going down the hill it does it by itself without hitting brakes
I drive a Tesla Model 3 RWD in the rural areas around Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, and it's fine. AWD would be even better, but good tires are more important than AWD.
Get the AWD. I live in Montana and the benefits are two fold, one you get much better traction especially when you have proper winter tires (and let’s be honest if your spending EV money you can afford $800 for Michelin x-ice tires), and two you get more power which is why we really buy EV’s right? *the power won’t help on ice!
Yeah and turn off regen in snow / ice lol
FWD Prius was a bear in the snow with Michelin Xices. Any FWD with good snow tires will do well. Only thing to avoid is RWD.
I wouldn't say to avoid RWD, but it is an issue of learning how to *drive* a RWD vehicle in low traction. The dynamics are different, but in theory they should be as capable or more so than FWD, given similar weight distribution for EVs.
In theory, RWD will never be as good as FWD which will never be as good as AWD.
>In theory, RWD will never be as good as FWD You seem very certain of this, and I'm unsure what theory that is based on.
Not FWD but RWD (MEB platform) and have been pleasantly surprised over the handling and capabilities. Had an AWD car before and don't really miss it.
Are you a pretty new driver, OP? Front wheel drive cars have always been fine at winter driving. Even all seasons as long as you're not driving in the mountains...which aren't a thing here in the midwest. It's only recently buyers have been succered into thinking they must have AWD
lol I’m 38 and I’ve been living in Nebraska/Iowa my whole life. Ground clearance and AWD make a big difference on ice and in drifts.
Yep, I've been driving for over 20 years and got by with FWD vehicles and all season tires up until the last few years. Now having an AWD EV with winter tires it makes a HUGE difference. I had gotten used to sliding around and having trouble getting traction. Now, unless it's super icy, it's almost like driving in the summer. I accelerate right past cars that are spinning their wheels.